Scottie Pippen vs Kawhi Leonard - Who has the better prime?

[mehyaM24]

who was the better player in their prime?

14-21 kawhi
22/7/3 on 49% from the field & 7.6 bpm / 34.4 vorp (2 dpoy, 2 fmvp, 3x first team all-defense, 2x first team all-nba)

91-98 pippen
21/7/6 on 48% from the field & 6 bpm / 45.9 vorp (6 titles, 7x first team all-defense, 3x first team all-nba)

a few opinions:
-pippen would win a dpoy playing today
-pippen was always the second option behind jordan, skewing his raw totals
-kawhi would be better on defense in the 90s
-the scoring gap isn't big even though kawhi is featured more on offense

[dankok8]

Kawhi wasn't in his prime till 2016-2017...

[SouBeachTalents]

It's Kawhi and it's not even close :lol From 2017 on Pippen never approached Kawhi's level

[tpols]

Mods please close this joke of a thread.

[mehyaM24]

Kawhi wasn't in his prime till 2016-2017...

kawhi supposedly locked up lebron (goat candidate) in 2014. and won finals mvp. if he wasn't in his "prime" then i don't know what metric you're using.

[mehyaM24]

It's Kawhi and it's not even close :lol From 2017 on Pippen never approached Kawhi's level

pippen was a top 10 player in the 90s. and was a top 5 perimeter player at the very least. you really saying kawhi would be better back then, and it wouldn't be close? i highly doubt that.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Kawhi and this isnt a contest at all.

[tpols]

kawhi supposedly locked up lebron (goat candidate) in 2014. and won finals mvp. if he wasn't in his "prime" then i don't know what metric you're using.

He averaged 12 PPG that year. Now he's closer to 30 PPG. Just because he shit on LeBron and won FMVP doesn't mean he was prime. Iggy did the same thing and he was an 8 PPG role player. Shitting on LeBron doesn't mean you were prime. I think he only averaged like 18 PPG in that Heat series anyway. That aint prime...

[mehyaM24]

He averaged 12 PPG that year. Now he's closer to 30 PPG. Just because he shit on LeBron and won FMVP doesn't mean he was prime. Iggy did the same thing and he was an 8 PPG role player. Shitting on LeBron doesn't mean you were prime. I think he only averaged like 18 PPG in that Heat series anyway. That aint prime...

and despite averaging 8 points, iguodala was still in his prime.

unless you think being 31 years old is over the hill....

[tpols]

and despite averaging 8 points, iguodala was still in his prime.

unless you think being 31 years old is over the hill....

No he wasn't. Iggy was a throw away player at that time with his productions tanking for years and being bounced around the league. In Philly during his prime he was a near 20/5/5 guy for a solid stretch.

[bizil]

HANDS DOWN Kawhi! Two way wise, the best SF EVER! Once his scoring evolved it put him in that realm. Guys like a Hondo and Bron did it longer. But I would still give Kawhi that mantle. Now he's become a damn good passing SF getting 5 dimes a night. Pip NEVER evolved into becoming a great scorer. That's why peak-prime value wise, the guys like Bron, Bird, KD, Kawhi, Doc, Hondo, Elgin, and Barry are SUPERIOR! ALL OF THEM were very good TO great all around players IN ADDITION to being great scorers.

And since peak-prime value is PART of GOAT criteria, Pip NEVER was regarded as a top 2-3 SF GOAT wise. IF Pip proved he had great scoring cred, he MAY HAVE BEEN the GOAT SF at one point. Because dude has six rings and redefined his position. Just his peak-prime value (while great) dragged him down. I might catch some heat, but I'm NOT SURE Pip is even a top 10 SF peak-prime wise. Im talking among guys who played AT LEAST five years on an All Star level! GOAT wise (the key criteria), he's easily a top 10 GOAT SF though!

[mehyaM24]

No he wasn't. Iggy was a throw away player at that time with his productions tanking for years and being bounced around the league. In Philly during his prime he was a near 20/5/5 guy for a solid stretch.


in golden state, iguodala was behind 3 superior offensive players. ofc his numbers plummeted. there's no way you think 31 is out of prime age. if that's the case, we have a far different interpretation of "prime". maybe you're confusing it with peak play or something.


HANDS DOWN Kawhi! Two way wise, the best SF EVER! Once his scoring evolved it put him in that realm. Guys like a Hondo and Bron did it longer. But I would still give Kawhi that mantle. Now he's become a damn good passing SF getting 5 dimes a night. Pip NEVER evolved into becoming a great scorer. That's why peak-prime value wise, the guys like Bron, Bird, KD, Kawhi, Doc, Hondo, Elgin, and Barry are SUPERIOR! ALL OF THEM were very good TO great all around players IN ADDITION to being great scorers.

And since peak-prime value is PART of GOAT criteria, Pip NEVER was regarded as a top 2-3 SF GOAT wise. IF Pip proved he had great scoring cred, he MAY HAVE BEEN the GOAT SF at one point. Because dude has six rings and redefined his position. Just his peak-prime value (while great) dragged him down. I might catch some heat, but I'm NOT SURE Pip is even a top 10 SF peak-prime wise. Im talking among guys who played AT LEAST five years on an All Star level! GOAT wise (the key criteria), he's easily a top 10 GOAT SF though!

kawhi being a "better scorer" is why i think he gets overrated. he isn't a better scorer than lebron, kd or bird yet is always mentioned with that group. pippen's all nba & defensive selections aren't just by coincidence. factor in the impact & advanced stats that are on similar footing - and i just don't see where kawhi wins this "easily".

[Xiao Yao You]

Kawai is the best player in the game. Pippen was highly overrated. Easy

[RRR3]

Kawai is the best player in the game. Pippen was highly overrated. Easy
:roll:

Someone forgot to watch the playoffs last year.


It’s still papa Bron.

[Micku]

kawhi being a "better scorer" is why i think he gets overrated. he isn't a better scorer than lebron, kd or bird yet is always mentioned with that group. pippen's all nba & defensive selections aren't just by coincidence. factor in the impact & advanced stats that are on similar footing - and i just don't see where kawhi wins this "easily".

In his prime, with 16-17, he'll give you dpoy lvl defense while averaging 26-28 ppg in the rs. More in the playoffs. He's better scorer while also being the same tier defensively. Lead the team twice as being the defensive and brought his team to be 1 defensively twice. It's pretty cut and dry. He's better in every advance metric too including with plus/minus, although that's not completely telling. You probably could argue that you shouldn't compare across eras. But even in the playoffs or rs while watcing, he's just better. His scoring arsenal gives him a big edge since he could carry a team defensively and offensively in a way that Pippen could not. Pippen could be argue that he's in the same tier defensively, and was probably better defensively for longer than Kawhi, but they aren't in the same tier offensively. Pippen is still better than Kawhi at some things, but I dunno by overall impact. It's pretty clear.

[Xiao Yao You]

:roll:

Someone forgot to watch the playoffs last year.


It’s still papa Bron.

someone forgot to watch the last non bubble playoff

[RRR3]

someone forgot to watch the last non bubble playoff
Shit like this is why you’re considered a troll.

Just because your lover boy Toody wet the bed doesn’t mean the playoffs didn’t count.

[3ball]

Pippen was an MVP candidate just like Blake Griffin, who was #3 in MVP in 2014.. or Paul George, who was #3 in 2019...

westbrook WON the damn thing in 2017.. Isaiah Thomas was #5 in 2017 before joining Lebron... Lillard was #4... Draymond was #7 in 2016..

and on... and on... and on... and on...

Having a top 5 MVP voting year means exactly nothing and puts you in the same class as guys like Blake Griffin and Tim Hardaway.

guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

And they got exposed pretty hard in those playoffs, and then were aids in 95' - that's a super-weak "peak" for a so-called great player (pippen).

[Xiao Yao You]

Shit like this is why you’re considered a troll.

Just because your lover boy Toody wet the bed doesn’t mean the playoffs didn’t count.

no one said it didn't count but it certainly wasn't the same. A troll calling someone else a troll! :roll:

[clutchinho]

Pippen is garbage, 20 year old Kobe made him go 0-7 in the playoffs the year after he left Jordan.

[RRR3]

no one said it didn't count but it certainly wasn't the same. A troll calling someone else a troll! :roll:
Definitely wasn’t the same for Toody. He choked even worse than usual.

[Xiao Yao You]

Definitely wasn’t the same for Toody. He choked even worse than usual.

lost as the underdog. Way to choke Rudy! :facepalm

[RRR3]

lost as the underdog. Way to choke Rudy! :facepalm
Pretty sure he wasn’t the underdog once he was up 3-1.

[Xiao Yao You]

Pretty sure he wasn’t the underdog once he was up 3-1.

He! Not a team game when Gobert is involved

[RRR3]

He! Not a team game when Gobert is involved
He’s the best player on the team, is he not? And he underperformed. If he had played up to his normal level I’d give him a pass. But he got killed on defense. 0.1 DBPM in that series. That’s extremely low for his standards.

[TheMan]

Pippen is garbage, 20 year old Kobe made him go 0-7 in the playoffs the year after he left Jordan.

No.

Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT. Yes he get overrated by LeBron stans with an obvious agenda but Mike wouldn't have won all those 6 chips without him, he has said so himself. He was Robin to MJ's Batman...you don't win titles without decent teammates and Pip was there contributing to every Bull's chip.

Having said that, Kawhi is the overall better player, not by a whole lot but he led a team to a title, something Pippen never did even when he joined a loaded Blazers team, albeit he was past his prime by that point.

[Smoke117]

I’d rather have Derrick Mckey than than this loser and quitter Leotard.

[Axe]

Shit like this is why you’re considered a troll.

Just because your lover boy Toody wet the bed doesn’t mean the playoffs didn’t count.
What are you blathering about this time, you incoherent son of a bitch?

[PeroAntic]

Tough one but it has to be Kawhi because of his shooting ability. Both perfect SFs for their respective eras.

[Axe]

Pippen has started in at least 70 games for eight seasons in a row. Now how many times did kawhi do the same thing in his career?

[3ball]

Kawhi is the overall better player

Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT





That's contradictory

You said Kawhi > Pippen, so Pippen can't be top 30 if we're including today's players like Giannis or Harden

That proves you're wrong and Pippen isn't top 30





Kawhi is the overall better player

Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT





55 wins with 2nd Round exit is a low peak..

then they were trash the next year in 95' so it was a short, low peak

Ultimately, Pippen has top 30 accolades but never actually played that great - tons of guys that are ranked far lower played much better than he ever did






Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT





Everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals... but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP peaked at 21 ppg, so only Jordan could win 3 with Pippen






Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT





everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Accordingly, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument






Pippen was legit, top 25-30 GOAT





Pippen's peak was 22 ppg or 6-10 points less than guys like Curry, Kobe, Wade or AD... So he was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP's, and equal-scoring partners that every other top 10 player enjoyed

[Axe]

That's contradictory

You said Kawhi > Pippen, so Pippen can't be top 30

That proves you're wrong and Pippen isn't top 30





55 wins with 2nd Round exit is a low peak..

then they were trash the next year in 95' so it was a short, low peak

Ultimately, Pippen has top 30 accolades but never actually played that great - tons of guys that are ranked far lower played much better than he ever did






Everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals... but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP peaked at 21 ppg, so only Jordan could win 3 with Pippen






everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for half of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Accordingly, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument






Pippen's peak was 22 ppg or 6-10 points less than guys like Curry, Kobe, Wade or AD... So he was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP's, and equal-scoring partners that every other top 10 player enjoyed
And pippen, despite being 'worse' as you try to point out, has gone further in the playoffs without mj than vice versa. So stop spamming lies and foh.

[3ball]

And pippen, despite being 'worse' as you try to point out, has gone further in the playoffs without mj than vice versa. So stop spamming lies and foh.


Pippen averaged 10 ppg and was 80th option

So you're the one making up your own truth, while I don't speak opinion.. I recite the historical record

Btw, lebron was lottery before Hughes and coy brown

[Axe]

Pippen averaged 10 ppg and was 80th option

So you're the one making up your own truth, while I don't speak opinion.. I recite the historical record

Btw, lebron was lottery before Hughes and coy brown
At least he never got swept during the first round of the playoffs in his first season without mj lmao

[3ball]

At least he never got swept during the first round of the playoffs in his first season without mj lmao


you're comparing Lebron's high seed performance against low seeds (06-10'), to Jordan's 8 seed performance against dynasties (85-87').

So instead of comparing high seeds to low seeds, you need to compare Jordan's low seeds from 85-87' to Lebron's low seeds from 04/05/19... Lebron is simply lucky that his 30-40 win teams missed the 8 vs 1 matchup against the 04' Pistons or the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's 30-40 win teams were forced to face dynasties..

[Axe]

you're comparing Lebron's high seed performance against low seeds (06-10'), to Jordan's 8 seed performance against dynasties (85-87').

So instead of comparing high seeds to low seeds, you need to compare Jordan's low seeds from 85-87' to Lebron's low seeds from 04/05/19... Lebron is simply lucky that his 30-40 win teams missed the 8 vs 1 matchup against the 04' Pistons or the 19' Warriors, while Jordan's 30-40 win teams were forced to face dynasties..
Too bad the comparison was between him and pippen, not between him and king kong. Plus like i said, he got further in the playoffs without his first scoring option but for so many odd reasons, you continue to have a hard time grasping the said fact.

[Manny98]

He! Not a team game when Gobert is involved
Everybody's fault but Rudy's eh

[Reggie43]

I wont take Pippen in most of his prime years because he always had some sort of injury that limits his production especially in the playoffs but if we base it peak for peak against Kawhi then he certainly has a case to being better.

Only real advantage Kawhi has over Pippen at his peak is scoring but thats with the modern offense friendly rules.

[Xiao Yao You]

Everybody's fault but Rudy's eh

didn't say that

[Axe]

I wont take Pippen in most of his prime years because he always had some sort of injury that limits his production especially in the playoffs but if we base it peak for peak against Kawhi then he certainly has a case to being better.

Only real advantage Kawhi has over Pippen at his peak is scoring but thats with the modern offense friendly rules.
Meanwhile kawhi had to undergo load management for him to conserve himself so he can maximize his production come playoff time.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You think Pippen is better then Lebron? because Kawhi is better then both of them. A lot of people say Ty Lue is an offensive minded coach, so lets compare Kawhi\Lebron when they both have him. Take in consideration that Lebron had Irving and generally people consider Kyrie Irving the much better offensive player over Paul George.

Lebron in 2017 under Ty Lue: Led Cavs to 118.4 offensive rating
Kawhi in 2021 under Ty Lue: Leading Clippers to 123.0 offensive rating

Same era, same coach, no excuses. Shut your mouth.

[Axe]

This idiot really thinks ty lue is a hof coach somehow when the guy has a losing record in the cavs without lebron and is unproven yet in the playoffs outside of him and his efforts. :roll:

[3ball]

I wont take Pippen in most of his prime years because he always had some sort of injury that limits his production especially in the playoffs but if we base it peak for peak against Kawhi then he certainly has a case to being better.

Only real advantage Kawhi has over Pippen at his peak is scoring but thats with the modern offense friendly rules.


Pippen's peak is 2nd Round loss and Kawhi's is FMVP

And Pippen's stats are nowhere near Kawhi... or anyone

This whole idea is preposterous... Pippen was a 2nd option... Kawhi was an elite 1st option... Case closed

Kukoc led the Bulls in BPM for the 94' Playoffs and Pippen was 4th on the team in WS/48 - so Pippen simply wasn't a #1 option......... even when he was #1 option!!!! lol

[Reggie43]

I dont know about some of you guys but peak numbers of around 22 pts 9 rebs 6asts 3stls 1blk with great playmaking and goat level defense looks pretty good to me.

He obviously never maintained this type of play throughout their success but you cant deny he was great at his peak.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi no contest.

[Airupthere]

Kawhi is better than lebron

[3ball]

Pippen had peak numbers of around 22 pts 9 rebs 6asts 3stls 1blk





^^^ that's a Larry Hughes peak in 2005 - 22/6/5 with 1st team defense

Pippen's prime stats of 18-22 ppg is matched by basically everyone because it's a very low bar

For example, Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals, while JR Smith averaged 18/8 on 60% in the 15' ECF - so tons of guys reached prime Pippen level because again, IT'S A LOW BAR

Otoh, few guys win the title like Kawhi did in 19' - that's a rarely attained peak... Similarly, Wade's peak is matched by almost no one.. so the peak capability of elite 1st options dwarfs Pippen's..

(btw, jordan won 6 rings carrying a bigger burden than Kawhi carried in 19', and pippen was on all of those teams providing Siakam or Lowry production)






He obviously never maintained this type of play throughout their success but you cant deny he was great at his peak.





Curry, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, AD, Kareem are elite 1st options that played 2nd option too... Meanwhile, Pippen's peak of 22 ppg is 6-10 points below these elite 1st options.

So Pippen was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks, equal-scoring partners and FMVP sidekicks that every other top 10 player enjoyed.. Only Jordan lacked an elite 1st option sidekick - he was stuck with Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had #7 defense during 1st three-peat and inferior defenses in ECF/Finals)

[Thenameless]

I'll go with Kawhi Leonard. Never mind stats.

When Jordan left the Bulls for those two years, and Pippen had to become The Man, he couldn't quite get it done. Kawhi is no Jordan, but he has shown that he can get it done as The Man.

Still, much respect to both. Pippen might be considered the best role player of all time.

[Smoke117]

I'll go with Kawhi Leonard. Never mind stats.

When Jordan left the Bulls for those two years, and Pippen had to become The Man, he couldn't quite get it done. Kawhi is no Jordan, but he has shown that he can get it done as The Man.

Still, much respect to both. Pippen might be considered the best role player of all time.

Lol...uh you lose the best player in the world and replace him with Pete Myers and Toni Kucoc and are supposed to “get it done”? You then lose Grant for nothing the next season and are supposed to “get it done”? Also, Pippen was a superstar at his best so what is this role player nonsense? Retard level take.

[3ball]

2019 Siakam Finals...... 20/8/4 on 51%... 1.5 TO's
2019 Lowry Finals...'..... 16/5/7 on 42%... 2.5 TO's

Pippen' Career Finals.... 19/8/6 on 42%... 3.3 TO's



Conclusion: Kawhi had 2 "pippen's" when he won the 19' title

[Thenameless]

Lol...uh you lose the best player in the world and replace him with Pete Myers and Toni Kucoc and are supposed to “get it done”? You then lose Grant for nothing the next season and are supposed to “get it done”? Also, Pippen was a superstar at his best so what is this role player nonsense? Retard level take.

The retard take is thinking Pippen is a superstar. Superstars get it done as The Man - they are not beta males. Pippen was always just Robin to Jordan's Batman. There was no alpha male in his psyche. Dwyane Wade was able to get it done before Lebron came along. Kobe was able to get done after Shaq was gone. Pippen was on some very talented teams after Jordan - nothing.

[aceman]

Pippen is better. True point guard who put up 20 points a night on 6 championship teams & also greatest defender of all time.

Kawhi's stats inflated by 3pt era.

[Reggie43]

Pippen was undeniably a superstar level talent. Him not getting it done in that lone season at his peak without MJ doesnt make him any less skilled.

[97 bulls]

What would prime Pippen stats look like today? This is why I hate these comparisons. Pippen didnt have the opportunity like Leonard had.

[mehyaM24]

In his prime, with 16-17, he'll give you dpoy lvl defense while averaging 26-28 ppg in the rs. More in the playoffs. He's better scorer while also being the same tier defensively. Lead the team twice as being the defensive and brought his team to be 1 defensively twice. It's pretty cut and dry. He's better in every advance metric too including with plus/minus, although that's not completely telling. You probably could argue that you shouldn't compare across eras. But even in the playoffs or rs while watcing, he's just better. His scoring arsenal gives him a big edge since he could carry a team defensively and offensively in a way that Pippen could not. Pippen could be argue that he's in the same tier defensively, and was probably better defensively for longer than Kawhi, but they aren't in the same tier offensively. Pippen is still better than Kawhi at some things, but I dunno by overall impact. It's pretty clear.

some good points, micku. i agree that kawhi is a better scorer, but i'm not convinced pippen wouldn't score 26 in today's game. and thats where i'm hungup on. the impact data (bpm/vorp - adjusted per 100 possessions to eliminate pace) says both are on a similar tier, and that their points per are roughly equal (for the years i outlined). don't think that is saying much for kawhi when the rules are easier for him to score.

ofc i can see someone giving the edge to kawhi, but again, i'm not seeing the "easy" argument. without jordan, and in pippen's prime, he was never on a team as good as kawhi's raptors. the bulls lost grant to orlando in 95 and the year before that he was pippen's second best player. you would think with a viable replacement for jordan, say another all-star sg, pippen's bulls would have been contenders. they took ny to game 7 though - so, still an impressive feat.


Still, much respect to both. Pippen might be considered the best role player of all time.

a 7x allstar with 7x all-nba selections is not a "role player". quit cappin.

[mehyaM24]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KkJoMq_Z7A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB2NmpVEnjs

just a "role player" guys. :oldlol:

kawhi was never as good on defense. pippen's playmaking was on another level too.

[Bronbron23]

It's Kawhi and it's not even close :lol From 2017 on Pippen never approached Kawhi's level

This. Kawhi in his prime was as good of a defender plus he was better offensively.

[Xiao Yao You]

What would prime Pippen stats look like today? This is why I hate these comparisons. Pippen didnt have the opportunity like Leonard had.

He'd be a stretch 4 with a streaky jump shot so possibly coming off the bench

[Bronbron23]

He'd be a stretch 4 with a streaky jump shot so possibly coming off the bench

Yeah ok. The reigning 2 time mvp is exactly this. Good try though

[dankok8]

Who are these trolls voting for Pippen? LMAO

[Xiao Yao You]

Yeah ok. The reigning 2 time mvp is exactly this. Good try though

Giannis and Pippen have very little in common

[mehyaM24]

Who are these trolls voting for Pippen? LMAO

the only trolls here are ones claiming it isn't close, and that pippen was a role player. :oldlol: these preconceived notions you had don't lineup with the facts.

[dankok8]

the only trolls here are ones claiming it isn't close, and that pippen was a role player. :oldlol: these preconceived notions you had don't lineup with the facts.

Pippen is a definite star but Kawhi is about 2 tiers better offensively.

[AirBonner]

Pippen is a definite star but Kawhi is about 2 tiers better offensively.

It’s not like Kawhi has averaged 30ppg. He has more offensive moves but that doesn’t translate to better scorer

[SouBeachTalents]

It’s not like Kawhi has averaged 30ppg. He has more offensive moves but that doesn’t translate to better scorer
He literally averaged that in his 2019 title run, and wasn't far off in 2017 or last year. His playoff scoring has absolutely been elite for the last few years

[mehyaM24]

Pippen is a definite star but Kawhi is about 2 tiers better offensively.

their impact stats aren't close to "2 tiers" apart. the years i spotlighted also show pippen averaging just 1 less point per game, but higher assists.

the comparison is a lot closer than some of you are willing to admit. and the poll reflects that.

[Bronbron23]

Giannis and Pippen have very little in common

Really? You said pip would be on the bench because he's a stretch 4 with an inconsistent jump shot. Wtf is greek then? If anything he's a worse version of that but somehow greek is the mvp but pip would be on the bench.

[Xiao Yao You]

Really? You said pip would be on the bench because he's a stretch 4 with an inconsistent jump shot. Wtf is greek then? If anything he's a worse version of that but somehow greek is the mvp but pip would be on the bench.

Giannis is more of a center at 7' offensively at least. He's got Lopez to spread the floor. So if Pippen is surrounded by shooters like Giannis it could work. Pippen wasn't an unstoppable scorer like Giannis. They have drastically different games and body types. Try again

[mehyaM24]

giannis an unstoppable scorer? :roll: chalk up another troll take.

[Xiao Yao You]

giannis an unstoppable scorer? :roll: chalk up another troll take.

28 points on 56 %. He's hard to stop. Pippen would be left open from 3 like Giannis but unlike Giannis he wouldn't be able to get to the rim at will anyway

[SouBeachTalents]

their impact stats aren't close to "2 tiers" apart. the years i spotlighted also show pippen averaging just 1 less point per game, but higher assists.

the comparison is a lot closer than some of you are willing to admit. and the poll reflects that.
Sure, if you keep including 2014-16 that's true. But 2017-now Kawhi's averages and advanced numbers are nearly across the board superior to Pippen's

[tpols]

What it comes down to is Pippen peaked at 22/8/7. Kawhi peaked at 31/9/4. Pippen would have lost with the Raptors in the second round to the Sixers in 2019 because it took every inch of Kawhi's 30+ PPG plus Game 7 walk off game winner for them to win. Not only would Pippen's productions have not been enough for it to be close, he would have NEVER been able to hit the game winner. Pippen has never made a single playoff game winner when it mattered. Not once in 100s of games. Kawhi's shooting is just so far superior.

[Bronbron23]

Giannis is more of a center at 7' offensively at least. He's got Lopez to spread the floor. So if Pippen is surrounded by shooters like Giannis it could work. Pippen wasn't an unstoppable scorer like Giannis. They have drastically different games and body types. Try again

No bro. It's a different game now. You really think greek is averaging 28 a game in the slowed down half court 90's? Greek would maybe score 22-24 a game in the 90's putting him a little bit better scorer than pip. He'd also be a little bit better rebounder. Pip was a better passer and defender though. It be extremely close between the 2 in terms of numbers and impact.

[mehyaM24]

28 points on 56 %. He's hard to stop. Pippen would be left open from 3 like Giannis but unlike Giannis he wouldn't be able to get to the rim at will anyway

he is frequently stopped in the playoffs - when the game slows. giannis is far from "unstoppable".


Sure, if you keep including 2014-16 that's true. But 2017-now Kawhi's averages and advanced numbers are nearly across the board superior to Pippen's

ya, i don't see kawhi entering his prime after 6 seasons in the league. only reason he wasn't putting up bigger numbers beforehand is because of duncan/ginobili/parker. same reason pippen didn't have better scoring numbers. he was alongside jordan. pippen was also chicago's lead playmaker & his teams offense was low tempo.

[Xiao Yao You]

No bro. It's a different game now. You really think greek is averaging 28 a game in the slowed down half court 90's? Greek would maybe score 22-24 a game in the 90's putting him a little bit better scorer than pip. He'd also be a little bit better rebounder. Pip was a better passer and defender though. It be extremely close between the 2 in terms of numbers and impact.

I thought we were talking about Pippen today? Pippen would be a better defender in today's game? If he was a rim protector sure. He wasn't

[Bronbron23]

I thought we were talking about Pippen today? Pippen would be a better defender in today's game? If he was a rim protector sure. He wasn't

Well you have to factor in the era's. Pip was in the slower, half court, harder to score 90's. Plus he was on the bulls playing in the triangle so the ball wasn't in his hands as often as greeks. Pip definitely scores more in this era and greek definitely scores less in previous ones.

Defensively it's tougher to compare because alot of defensive impact is harder to quantify. I'd say pip was a better defender overall though. He was a way better on ball defender and he was long and athletic enough to gaurd all positions effectively with the exceptions of centers maybe. Greek is maybe a better help defender but even that is pretty close.

[97 bulls]

Yeah ok. The reigning 2 time mvp is exactly this. Good try though

Exactly. Antekoumpo cant shoot, has no post game, cant dribble, cant shoot FTs, and yet can average almost 30 per night in todays league. Scottie Pippen would be a 26/10/8 guy in todays league at the least.

[Xiao Yao You]

Well you have to factor in the era's. Pip was in the slower, half court, harder to score 90's. Plus he was on the bulls playing in the triangle so the ball wasn't in his hands as often as greeks. Pip definitely scores more in this era and greek definitely scores less in previous ones.

Defensively it's tougher to compare because alot of defensive impact is harder to quantify. I'd say pip was a better defender overall though. He was a way better on ball defender and he was long and athletic enough to gaurd all positions effectively with the exceptions of centers maybe. Greek is maybe a better help defender but even that is pretty close.

Not sure Pippen scores more unless he becomes a reliable 3 point shooter. He was best in the open court so he might get more looks there but in the half court he'd be left open at the 3 point line. Would Pippen be a better on ball defender without hand checking? He was best getting in passing lanes not on the ball anyway

[Bronbron23]

Exactly. Antekoumpo cant shoot, has no post game, cant dribble, cant shoot FTs, and yet can average almost 30 per night in todays league. Scottie Pippen would be a 26/10/8 guy in todays league at the least.

Yeah thats where i have pip in today's game. Between 24-27 ppg a game with more assists because theres more scoring and more rebounds because there's less traffic. I have greek scoring around the same as pip if he was in the slower half court 90's.

[97 bulls]

Yeah thats where i have pip in today's game. Between 24-27 ppg a game with more assists because theres more scoring and more rebounds because there's less traffic. I have greek scoring around the same as pip if he was in the slower half court 90's.

It's why I don't understand these types of comparisons without context. None of these guys will say what Pippens numbers would look like in todays league.

[tpols]

It's why I don't understand these types of comparisons without context. None of these guys will say what Pippens numbers would look like in todays league.

Kawhi has playoff runs en route to rings where he shot 90+% from the free throw line. Pippen shot in the 60s and 70s percentage wise. Are free throws era dependent too? Why can't you admit Kawhi was an infinitely better shooter and thus scorer?

[dankok8]

League average TS% is 3% higher now than in the 90's on average. Give Pippen a 3% efficiency boost and he's around 24 ppg on 55 %TS. Nowhere near 29 ppg on 62 %TS that Kawhi has been putting up since 2017 in the playoffs.

[97 bulls]

Kawhi has playoff runs en route to rings where he shot 90+% from the free throw line. Pippen shot in the 60s and 70s percentage wise. Are free throws era dependent too? Why can't you admit Kawhi was an infinitely better shooter and thus scorer?

So you think this point is explosion is due to FTs? Again, why can Giannis averge almost 30 per night with literally no offensive ability what so ever?. And hes a worse FT shooter than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

League average TS% is 3% higher now than in the 90's on average. Give Pippen a 3% efficiency boost and he's around 24 ppg on 55 %TS. Nowhere near 29 ppg on 62 %TS that Kawhi has been putting up since 2017 in the playoffs.

Are you accounting for the MJ factor?

[tpols]

So you think this point is explosion is due to FTs? Again, why can Giannis averge almost 30 per night with literally no offensive ability what so ever?. And hes a worse FT shooter than Pippen.

What? Forget point explosion. Kawhi can shoot 90% from the line point blank. That is the purest indicator of shooting ability and it transcends era since the FT line has always been the FT line unadulterated. There's never been a great shooter, who couldn't shoot a free throw well. And vice versa all the worst shooters of all time happen to shoot free throws poorly. It isn't hard to put together.

WHY can't you admit that Kawhi's shooting and scoring ability are far better than Pippens? I've seen the tape on all the classic 90s playoff games... Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Knicks, Pacers, Jazz, Bulls... Pippen could NOT for the life of all people that ever lived, shoot like Kawhi. Kawhi can bury a 3 at a distance most defenders back then wouldn't even be covering him. And if they gave him Pippen sag coverage they'd be buried by halftime. Why can't you admit the huge disparity in shooting ability?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What? Forget point explosion. Kawhi can shoot 90% from the line point blank. That is the purest indicator of shooting ability and it transcends era since the FT line has always been the FT line unadulterated. There's never been a great shooter, who couldn't shoot a free throw well. And vice versa all the worst shooters of all time happen to shoot free throws poorly. It isn't hard to put together.

WHY can't you admit that Kawhi's shooting and scoring ability are far better than Pippens? I've seen the tape on all the classic 90s playoff games... Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Knicks, Pacers, Jazz, Bulls... Pippen could NOT for the life of all people that ever lived, shoot like Kawhi. Kawhi can bury a 3 at a distance most defenders back then wouldn't even be covering him. And if they gave him Pippen sag coverage they'd be buried by halftime. Why can't you admit the huge disparity in shooting ability?

Kawhi also a goat level pull up mid range game. Pippen had a non existent pull up game. Kawhi has an elite post game as well. Kawhi literally does everything on offense like 50x better. The only thing pippen is better at is he's more willing to bring the ball up the court, I don't even think he's a better ball handler then Kawhi though either, better playmaker is also Kawhi due to the attention he receives. What are we going to do next compare Manu Ginobili to Kobe Bryant? Close this thread. I actually like Pippen too but threads like this do him a disservice and most likely just trolling.

[AirBonner]

Isaiah Thomas averaged nearly 30ppg a few years ago. Pippen would EASILY be a 25-27ppg player. He would be a walking triple double

[97 bulls]

What? Forget point explosion. Kawhi can shoot 90% from the line point blank. That is the purest indicator of shooting ability and it transcends era since the FT line has always been the FT line unadulterated. There's never been a great shooter, who couldn't shoot a free throw well. And vice versa all the worst shooters of all time happen to shoot free throws poorly. It isn't hard to put together.

WHY can't you admit that Kawhi's shooting and scoring ability are far better than Pippens? I've seen the tape on all the classic 90s playoff games... Blazers, Suns, Sonics, Knicks, Pacers, Jazz, Bulls... Pippen could NOT for the life of all people that ever lived, shoot like Kawhi. Kawhi can bury a 3 at a distance most defenders back then wouldn't even be covering him. And if they gave him Pippen sag coverage they'd be buried by halftime. Why can't you admit the huge disparity in shooting ability?

Why are you trying to relegate this to FTs? Lol. Most of the best FT shooters arent great scorers.