Who are the players that "make others better"?

[iamgine]

Like we already have a top 10 best dunker or best shooter.

What would a top 10 list of the best at "making others better" looks like?

[Dr Hawk]

First two to come to mind are Nash and Magic.

[Gayfuk]

Reggie Miller

Chris Paul

Jason Kidd

[Lebron23]

Lebron James

[nayte]

It's a situational thing.stars aren't gonna make other stars better. Take the above post .lebron didn't make Wade better.etc.they are gonna help their teams tho.lebron certainly does and curry.giannis. Durant etc just by being on the court and the attention they attract are going to make other players better

[HoopsNY]

Lebron James

Who has he made better?

[TyLawson3]

It's a situational thing.stars aren't gonna make other stars better. Take the above post .lebron didn't make Wade better.etc.they are gonna help their teams tho.lebron certainly does and curry.giannis. Durant etc just by being on the court and the attention they attract are going to make other players better

Not unless you’re Nikola Jokic. He is the true modern day example of making those around him better.

[SATAN]

Who has he made better?

Whole franchises going absolutely nowhere.

[Manny98]

Steve Nash
Jokic
LeBron
CP3
Magic
Curry

[nayte]

Not unless you’re Nikola Jokic. He is the true modern day example of making those around him better.

Fair point on that. I stand a bit corrected. Be interesting if he got to play with a true star. I don't quite include Murray with that but still

[nayte]

Steve Nash
Jokic
LeBron
CP3
Magic
Curry

You leave out players like Jordan and Shaq who you act like the didn't make players better just by being on the court with them

[tpols]

Bird
Nash
Magic
Jokic

[Manny98]

You leave out players like Jordan and Shaq who you act like the didn't make players better just by being on the court with them
Do they DIRECTLY make their teammates better?

Every superstar technically make things easier for their teammates just by being on the court

But the ones that really stand out are guys like Nash and CP3 who are experts at finding their teammates in the right spots and raise their teammates games significantly

[Kiddlovesnets]

There are players who make everyone better, ie. Chris Paul. There are players who make role players better but all-star players worse, ie. Lebron.

[dirkdiggler41]

I think the saying "make others better" is wrong. No players can make you better, but they can put you in a position to fulfill your potential. That is why LeBron, Luka, Harden etc. are in my opinion overrated as far as making players around them better because most of them become spot-up shooters. I always felt Kidd was a player who made players around him better because he would pass them the ball in a situation where they became dangerous. Not necessarily an open 3 pointer or easy dunk, but in the right position to make a play. I also feel Jokic is that kind of player because he does not handle the ball as much as the wing playmakers mentioned before. He can set screens, make 3 pointers, catch the ball, postup. That gives Jamal Murray the chance to take out his full potential and the offense becomes scarier.

[light]

I think the saying "make others better" is wrong. No players can make you better, but they can put you in a position to fulfill your potential. That is why LeBron, Luka, Harden etc. are in my opinion overrated as far as making players around them better because most of them become spot-up shooters. I always felt Kidd was a player who made players around him better because he would pass them the ball in a situation where they became dangerous. Not necessarily an open 3 pointer or easy dunk, but in the right position to make a play. I also feel Jokic is that kind of player because he does not handle the ball as much as the wing playmakers mentioned before. He can set screens, make 3 pointers, catch the ball, postup. That gives Jamal Murray the chance to take out his full potential and the offense becomes scarier.

Those players that become spot up shooters are best used as spot up shooters. That's the point. For example Chris Bosh averaging 24/11 is not a player that is going to win a championship. Similar thing with Kevin Love. They become better players with a reduced, though more focused role. The best way to use them is exactly how LeBron used them.

LeBron used other players like Wade, Kyrie and AD differently. LeBron's vision and gravity combined with their instinct made them more lethal than if they were by themselves, obviously.

[hiphopanonymous]

Those players that become spot up shooters are best used as spot up shooters. That's the point. For example Chris Bosh averaging 24/11 is not a player that is going to win a championship. Similar thing with Kevin Love. They become better players with a reduced, though more focused role. The best way to use them is exactly how LeBron used them.

LeBron used other players like Wade, Kyrie and AD differently. LeBron's vision and gravity combined with their instinct made them more lethal than if they were by themselves, obviously.
I think making a rounded player that was versatile force-fit into a reduced and simpler spot-up shooter role doesn't make them better it makes them worse.

Making a player better enhances their strengths to a very unguardable degree and hides their weaknesses to some extant and by no means was someone like Bosh or Kevin Love "better" taking spot up shots. So in those two examples at least, those guys became worse in my eyes.

Making a player better would be like Stockton and Malone complimenting each others game. They both benefited from each others strengths and tried to diminish any weaknesses they might have had and the end product was that both worked very well together in a way that never took away - they still had their variety in their games but also could spam a very unguardable strength when working together on say, the PNR - or simply having stock hit an outside J spacing the floor to keep the defense honest opening up a few middle post-ups for Malone which in turn again - helps Stock have some space outside. It's all a positive cycle.

LeBron can work well with players whos strong point was already spot up shooting for example I wouldn't say he made Ray Allen worse. That was already Ray Allen's bread and butter, cutting and getting open for a spot up shot. He could work well with a JJ Reddick in this same regard like he did Ray Allen and Kyle Korver.

[Airupthere]

Those players that become spot up shooters are best used as spot up shooters. That's the point. For example Chris Bosh averaging 24/11 is not a player that is going to win a championship. Similar thing with Kevin Love. They become better players with a reduced, though more focused role. The best way to use them is exactly how LeBron used them.

LeBron used other players like Wade, Kyrie and AD differently. LeBron's vision and gravity combined with their instinct made them more lethal than if they were by themselves, obviously.

BS take. Lebron did not elevate bosh and wade. He did not gift them rings. They teamed up and that was just too much talent that is why they all won together. As a result of bron being the most ball dominant of the three, that inevitably meant bosh and wade had to sacrifice. At the expense as we saw, of them turning into recipients in the long haul. That is not elevating their games. They won because they were stacked. Not because bosh and wade were elevated.

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd say Gobert but the trolls would go wild

[Manny98]

Players that make everybody better

People in this thread:

LeBron
MJ
Magic
Nash
Bird

Xiao: Toody

:facepalm

[3ball]

Kareem was Kareem

Worthy was the #1 overall pick and an automatic star

So even though team offense was very easy to coach because Magic was such a great ball-dominator, he didn't actually make anyone better

Tossing guys assists so they can make easy shots doesn't "make them better" at basketball - it just gives them easy shots

Otoh, guys get better at basketball when they show significant improvement in various areas of the game.

For example - guys like Pippen, Grant and BJ were single-digit rookies that showed massive improvement and reached all-star caliber... But guys like Pippen or Larry Hughes can't improve unless they play alongside a great jumpshooter with dual on-ball and off-ball skillset like Arenas or Jordan..

In addition to Jordan's scoring diversity (on-ball/off-ball) that fit with many player types and allowed guys to improve, his hunger, fire and fearlessness was goat, which rubbed off on teammates and drove them to greatness.. indeed, Jordan's teammates always made the winning shot when he passed to them, because his fearlessness was contagious

[Axe]

Russell

[SATAN]

How has nobody mentioned Pippen itt?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi would be the best answer. HE has a 75% career win percentage and has never played with any top 20 alltime great in their prime. Carried Raptors to a ring with Lowry\Gasol who are both washed up just 2 years later and Siakam who should probably still be in the G League. Now he's currently anchoring the greatest offensive in NBA history and doesn't have any alltime great offensive players on his team.

[PeroAntic]

Seriously nobody mentioned Jimmy Butler??? Hes the definition of making others better.

[Airupthere]

Seriously nobody mentioned Jimmy Butler??? Hes the definition of making others better.

Or worse, depending on how strong the player's character is

[Ainosterhaspie]

The common idea is who makes other players better. There is a closely related idea that is nevertheless distinct. Who makes the team better even of teammates don't necessarily seem much better or in some cases seem worse.

HBK of course has to say Kawhi is a candidate for makes other players better even though nothing about his game really elevates others. He obviously makes his teams significantly better, but that's more due to his ability to contribute offensively without doing much to alter what his teammates are doing combined with his excellent defense. He doesn't do much to create for others or alter the defense like a Curry to open things up even when he doesn't have the ball.

LeBron is on the line between making others better and making the team better. There are certainly plenty of players who have thrived because of what he does, but also well known exceptions like Love and Bosh whose raw numbers dipped significantly playing alongside LeBron. That dip though also occurred while those players had the greatest team success of their careers.

And the issue there is that they had skill sets that weren't conducive to winning basketball. They should have been specialists rather than generalists because they weren't good enough to be impactful as generalists.

Love was good posting up and good at range, but couldn't traverse that space from outside to inside effectively. How do you build an offense around that? You can't. Posting him up just puts him in Irving and LeBron's way and both were better than him attacking inside, both with scoring effectiveness and impact on distorting the defense. So Love became more and more of a specialist doing the one thing he could do that had the biggest impact offensively, namely space the floor.

His rebounding is also a strong point, but Tristan Thompson was a great offensive rebounder, so Love was redundant there. Not to mention that if he and Thompson both are inside, and there was no other place for Thompson offensively, that clogs things further.

Bosh is similar. His best scoring ability was his mid range shot, the least productive shot in the game. He was a big that didn't like banging inside and would rather face up and play play finesse mid range game. As the number one on a mediocre team he could put up empty scoring numbers, but never managed to make his team competitive on any kind of consistent basis. The Heat still tried to play to that strength, but it rarely worked well, because unless you're on fire, mid range shots don't lead to wins anymore.

That doesn't mean that Bosh wasn't wasn't key piece to the Heat's success. He was. He was a luxury as a third option scorer. His scoring wasn't enough to be winning as a first option, and was only borderline good enough as a second option, but as a third it was great especially as he expanded his range and could be a threat to provide spacing.

His biggest contribution though was on the defensive end as a big that was mobile enough on the perimeter to impact pick and rolls. The Heat had exceptional defense when they were winning especially when they ramped up their defensive intensity. They were smothering in spurts and Bosh was a key part of that. The team got better because Bosh took a reduced role focusing on the areas he could be most impactful.

His raw stats went down but the team got better. LeBron didn't make him worse, he didn't make him better. Bosh was forced into the most impactful role he could have as a basketball player and had the only team success of his professional career because of it.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

The common idea is who makes other players better. There is a closely related idea that is nevertheless distinct. Who makes the team better even of teammates don't necessarily seem much better or in some cases seem worse.

HBK of course has to say Kawhi is a candidate for makes other players better even though nothing about his game really elevates others. He obviously makes his teams significantly better, but that's more due to his ability to contribute offensively without doing much to alter what his teammates are doing combined with his excellent defense. He doesn't do much to create for others or alter the defense like a Curry to open things up even when he doesn't have the ball.

LeBron is on the line between making others better and making the team better. There are certainly plenty of players who have thrived because of what he does, but also well known exceptions like Love and Bosh whose raw numbers dipped significantly playing alongside LeBron. That dip though also occurred while those players had the greatest team success of their careers.

And the issue there is that they had skill sets that weren't conducive to winning basketball. They should have been specialists rather than generalists because they weren't good enough to be impactful as generalists.

Love was good posting up and good at range, but couldn't traverse that space from outside to inside effectively. How do you build an offense around that? You can't. Posting him up just puts him in Irving and LeBron's way and both were better than him attacking inside, both with scoring effectiveness and impact on distorting the defense. So Love became more and more of a specialist doing the one thing he could do that had the biggest impact offensively, namely space the floor.

His rebounding is also a strong point, but Tristan Thompson was a great offensive rebounder, so Love was redundant there. Not to mention that if he and Thompson both are inside, and there was no other place for Thompson offensively, that clogs things further.

Bosh is similar. His best scoring ability was his mid range shot, the least productive shot in the game. He was a big that didn't like banging inside and would rather face up and play play finesse mid range game. As the number one on a mediocre team he could put up empty scoring numbers, but never managed to make his team competitive on any kind of consistent basis. The Heat still tried to play to that strength, but it rarely worked well, because unless you're on fire, mid range shots don't lead to wins anymore.

That doesn't mean that Bosh wasn't wasn't key piece to the Heat's success. He was. He was a luxury as a third option scorer. His scoring wasn't enough to be winning as a first option, and was only borderline good enough as a second option, but as a third it was great especially as he expanded his range and could be a threat to provide spacing.

His biggest contribution though was on the defensive end as a big that was mobile enough on the perimeter to impact pick and rolls. The Heat had exceptional defense when they were winning especially when they ramped up their defensive intensity. They were smothering in spurts and Bosh was a key part of that. The team got better because Bosh took a reduced role focusing on the areas he could be most impactful.

His raw stats went down but the team got better. LeBron didn't make him worse, he didn't make him better. Bosh was forced into the most impactful role he could have as a basketball player and had the only team success of his professional career because of it.

Why are Kawhi led offenses so much better then Lebron led offenses? despite being coached by the same guy in Ty Lue and in the same era. Irving is a better offensive player then Paul George, yet Kawhi still anchors better offenses?

2021 clippers when Kawhi is on court: 123.1
2017 cavs when Lebron is on court: 118.4

How the hell is Kawhi doing this when his point guard is a 6"0 PJ Tucker in Pat Beverly? Literally has no point guard to bring the ball up or be a playmaker and still putting up better offenses then Lebron. Anybody with half a brain can tell you that Irving is a better offensive player then Paul George as well.

Then when you want to talk playoffs.

2016 Lebron has an offensive guru in Ty Lue as head coach - Offensive on\off is +12.6
2019 Kawhi has an offensive idiot in Nick Nurse as head coach - Offensive on\off is +18.7

Also 2019 playoffs Kawhi had to face a 5x tougher eastern conference path because he faced a team with Simmons\Butler\Embiid defense on it and the also faced the #1 defense led by defensive player of the year Giannis on it and Draymond wasn't suspended for 1 game in the finals.

[EagleFang]

This is a loaded question.



Dirk Nowitzki made all of his teammates better just by giving him the ball to score on his own.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This is a loaded question.



Dirk Nowitzki made all of his teammates better just by giving him the ball to score on his own.

Kawhi is pretty much a rich man's Dirk Nowitzki. The assists totals are not crazy or anything but at their peaks they are both better offensive players then Lebron.

[LoneyROY7]

I think the saying "make others better" is wrong. No players can make you better, but they can put you in a position to fulfill your potential. That is why LeBron, Luka, Harden etc. are in my opinion overrated as far as making players around them better because most of them become spot-up shooters. I always felt Kidd was a player who made players around him better because he would pass them the ball in a situation where they became dangerous. Not necessarily an open 3 pointer or easy dunk, but in the right position to make a play. I also feel Jokic is that kind of player because he does not handle the ball as much as the wing playmakers mentioned before. He can set screens, make 3 pointers, catch the ball, postup. That gives Jamal Murray the chance to take out his full potential and the offense becomes scarier.

Harden just makes players around him spot-up shooters? Is that why Russ averaged 27/8/7 next to him? Is that why Kyrie is having a career year averaging 28/6/5 playing next to him?

Let's try that again.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Harden just makes players around him spot-up shooters? Is that why Russ averaged 27/8/7 next to him? Is that why Kyrie is having a career year averaging 28/6/5 playing next to him?

Let's try that again.

Nick Nurse has never even led a top 13 ranked offense without Kawhi. You been sucking on D'antoni's dick your entire life hahahaha who was well known for elite offenses back when Harden was still a virgin.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Finding teammates for easy and open buckets. Finding them in their shooting pocket. In-game leadership as in running an offense or being the teams glue...

Chris Paul, Magic, Bird and Bill Russell all come to mind.

Would throw Bron in their too although not sure he works well with a ball dominator. MJ is another dude who was technically a good leader, but he was bad cop to Pippen's good cop (who ran the offense a good amount).

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Finding teammates for easy and open buckets. Finding them in their shooting pocket. In-game leadership as in running an offense or being the teams glue...

Chris Paul, Magic, Bird and Bill Russell all come to mind.

Would throw Bron in their too although not sure he works well with a ball dominator. MJ is another dude who was technically a good leader, but he was bad cop to Pippen's good cop (who ran the offense a good amount).

Chris Paul hahahah tell him to make his hamstring better before he makes his teammates better, he's not in Kawhi's league.

[aj1987]

Why are Kawhi led offenses so much better then Lebron led offenses? despite being coached by the same guy in Ty Lue and in the same era. Irving is a better offensive player then Paul George, yet Kawhi still anchors better offenses?

2021 clippers when Kawhi is on court: 123.1
2017 cavs when Lebron is on court: 118.4

How the hell is Kawhi doing this when his point guard is a 6"0 PJ Tucker in Pat Beverly? Literally has no point guard to bring the ball up or be a playmaker and still putting up better offenses then Lebron. Anybody with half a brain can tell you that Irving is a better offensive player then Paul George as well.

Then when you want to talk playoffs.

2016 Lebron has an offensive guru in Ty Lue as head coach - Offensive on\off is +12.6
2019 Kawhi has an offensive idiot in Nick Nurse as head coach - Offensive on\off is +18.7

Also 2019 playoffs Kawhi had to face a 5x tougher eastern conference path because he faced a team with Simmons\Butler\Embiid defense on it and the also faced the #1 defense led by defensive player of the year Giannis on it and Draymond wasn't suspended for 1 game in the finals.

Funny how you picked Offensive On-Off for the PO's in '16 and '19 and just On-Court numbers for the RS in '17 and '21.

Why didn't you use the '17 PO's Offensive On-Off +/-? Is it because LeBron was a +19.9 in that run? A number which Kawhi has never even sniffed in his entire career?

How about last seasons numbers?

The Clippers were, offensively, WORSE by 3.2 points per 100 possessions WITH Kawhi on the court, than with him OFF the court.

Well, that must mean he was conserving his energy for the defensive end, right? The Clippers' opponents had an ORtg of 112.5 with him ON the court and 106.9 ORtg with him OFF the court. :roll: :roll:

Dude had, by FAR, the WORST +/- of any starter on his team.

Yeah, Draymond wasn't suspended, but KD was out and Klay missed games. If he faced a healthy GSW team, dude would've gotten dusted.

Lets not forget that this is the same team that won 53 games without Cuckwhi the very next season.

Want to try again?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Chris Paul hahahah tell him to make his hamstring better before he makes his teammates better, he's not in Kawhi's league.

Kawhi is a mute with average playmaking. :oldlol: He isn't leading anyone to anything.

[LeCola]

Sounds like crazy but Harden for this season...

[Axe]

Kawhi is pretty much a rich man's Dirk Nowitzki. The assists totals are not crazy or anything but at their peaks they are both better offensive players then Lebron.
Huh, when did dirk nowitzki load managed for each season?

[LoneyROY7]

Nick Nurse has never even led a top 13 ranked offense without Kawhi. You been sucking on D'antoni's dick your entire life hahahaha who was well known for elite offenses back when Harden was still a virgin.

Can someone please get this guy some proper medication?

[3ball]

Finding teammates for easy and open buckets





^^^ That doesn't make guys better at basketball

Guys get better by improving their game - aka dribbling, shooting, repertoire

Certain guys allow teammates to do this and others don't

For example, lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow spotty-shooting, ball-handlers to improve, whereas Jordan's more diverse on-ball/off-ball skillset does






MJ was bad cop to Pippen's good cop (who ran the offense a good amount).





Jordan averaged more assists and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs, so how can you say Pippen ran the offense?

Jordan doubled Pippen's playoff scoring average and assisted 33% more often (28% to 21% assist percentage), so if anyone ran the "equal-opportunity, no point guard" offense, it was Jordan.

[kkb_12]

Jokic
CP3
Rondo
Doncic
M.Conley
J.Butler

in the past:
Nash
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Manu
Battier
Marion
B.Diaw

[LeFlopper]

Funny how you picked Offensive On-Off for the PO's in '16 and '19 and just On-Court numbers for the RS in '17 and '21.

Why didn't you use the '17 PO's Offensive On-Off +/-? Is it because LeBron was a +19.9 in that run? A number which Kawhi has never even sniffed in his entire career?

How about last seasons numbers?

The Clippers were, offensively, WORSE by 3.2 points per 100 possessions WITH Kawhi on the court, than with him OFF the court.

Well, that must mean he was conserving his energy for the defensive end, right? The Clippers' opponents had an ORtg of 112.5 with him ON the court and 106.9 ORtg with him OFF the court. :roll: :roll:

Dude had, by FAR, the WORST +/- of any starter on his team.

Yeah, Draymond wasn't suspended, but KD was out and Klay missed games. If he faced a healthy GSW team, dude would've gotten dusted.

Lets not forget that this is the same team that won 53 games without Cuckwhi the very next season.

Want to try again?

:roll:

[Axe]

^^^ That doesn't make guys better at basketball

Guys get better by improving their game - aka dribbling, shooting, repertoire

Certain guys allow teammates to do this and others don't

For example, lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow spotty-shooting, ball-handlers to improve, whereas Jordan's more diverse on-ball/off-ball skillset does






Jordan averaged more assists and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs, so how can you say Pippen ran the offense?

Jordan doubled Pippen's playoff scoring average and assisted 33% more often (28% to 21% assist percentage), so if anyone ran the "equal-opportunity, no point guard" offense, it was Jordan.

Ballhog

[3ball]

Ballhog


It's funny because the triangle didn't allow that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUkpGQq9GLIhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYe7ce4hFlI
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_isKCUt08

The most rigid offense ever, with no point guard role - it's clear that no one ran the offense because EVERYONE did - everyone ran the same routes and initiated the offense by passing to the wing or post and receiving passes in those spots as well.

[3ball]

It's funny because the triangle didn't allow that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUkpGQq9GLIhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GYe7ce4hFlI
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_isKCUt08

The most rigid offense ever, with no point guard role - it's clear that no one ran the offense because EVERYONE did - everyone ran the same routes and initiated the offense by passing to the wing or post and receiving passes in those spots as well.


^^^ Despite the equal-opportunity of the triangle, the Bulls still needed goat scoring and volume from Jordan to win.

So contrary to media narratives, Jordan didn't decrease his volume or scoring to win because he won the 92' and 93' titles with 35 ppg in the playoffs (36 and 41 in the Finals), while his 92', 93' and 98' titles had 38% usage (the highest of his career outside of the 86' and 87' 1st Round losses).

Furthermore, Jordan's highest usage regular seasons were mostly championship seasons, so he did NOT reduce his volume to win like everyone thinks:



Jordan's highest usage seasons as a Bull (* denotes title year):

1. 1987... 38.3%
2. 1993... 34.7%*
3. 1988... 34.1%
4. 1998... 33.7%*
5. 1990... 33.7%
6. 1996... 33.3%*
7. 1997... 33.1%*
8. 1991... 32.9%*
9. 1989... 31.1%


People simply use the slight dip he had in 1991 to say he reduced his volume but it's untrue because he had all-time high volume in the championships after that.

Ultimately, Phil Jackson said in "The Last Dance" that he told Jordan "you won't be scoring champ in the triangle"... but Jordan proved him wrong, along with the widespread belief that a scoring champion couldn't be a champion.

[2much_knowledge]

Bird
Nash
Kidd

[72-10]

Larry Bird and Bill Walton are the two names that first came to mind.