Just how many pre-1990's violations exist in a modern NBA skillset? (James Harden)

[hiphopanonymous]

Let's find out! Here is a recent James Harden game, a 38-11-13 triple double. I will only look at the plays in this highlight video I'm sure more would be uncovered analyzing the entire game. I'm going to do my best to actually call it like an 80's ref would call it but just like an 80's ref I might get a call wrong even though unlike them I have the power of slow mo replay every play here. This will look nitpicky as heck and it isn't to show Harden as being unskilled, he's extremely skilled he just plays within the framework of the modern game. Just trying to illustrate here how much the game has changed so here we go:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbKGYTmiiKQ

• 0:05 seconds, James Harden lifts his right foot, then his left foot before the ball is released from his hands. Blatant traveling. Negative Two points. Turnover.
• Next play is a give and go lob off a high PNR ball handler situation. This is a clean assist with a clean dribble drive even in the 1980's - A legal assist!
• 0:19 begins a sequence that if you pause at 0:23 you'll notice a palming violation (that amount of hesi doesn't work in the 80's). Negative assist. Turnover.
• Next play is a simple one dribble after rebound pushing the ball up in transition to Kyrie who Eurosteps it in an acceptable 1980's gather rhythm. - A legal assist!
• 0:55 - pause it at 0:55, that crossover dribble with his hand directly under the ball is a carry by 1980's rules. Negative assist. Turnover.
• 1:07 - pause at 1:09, Harden takes 3 steps to come to a stop after catching a pass (left foot hops left foot steps right foot steps), only 2 are allowed in the 80's. Negative assist. Turnover.
• Next play not enough footage is seen prior to the pass so Harden perhaps gets lucky, we will call this a clean assist!
• 1:32 Harden iso's for a layup which looks good with clean palms down dribbling until 1:35 where he commits a palming violation on the hesi. He couldn't create space for this shot without this palming violation either. He also stiff arms the opponent on the way to the basket, charging foul at least in 60's or 70's rules on top of that. Negative two points. Turnover
• 1:43 looked clean at first until I noticed he shoved his defender to get free followed by a moving screen by Jeff Green. Negative assist. Turnover.
• 2:00 it seems like James Harden can't begin a drive without lifting both feet before he dribbles... slow motion at 2:04 is traveling. Both feet lifted before the ball releases from his hands. Negative two points. Turnover.
• Next play is a nice catch and dribble drive to a floater that is totally legal!
• Next play is a simple open court pass in transition - totally legal assist!
• Next play I'll be nice and ignore his offensive armbar even though it's prob not allowed in older 60's games - maybe it would slide by the slightly more open offensive 80's. Call it a legal but iffy bucket!
• 2:48 ahhh the infamous double-step back jumper. Blatant traveling. Negative three points. Turnover.
• 3:07 he picks up his dribble then takes exactly 4 steps before he releases the ball in the form of a pass. There's no late gather in the 80's this is a blatant travel. Negative assist. Turnover.
• Next play is a clean block
• 3:26 this is exactly the kind of simple thing that you still can't do in the 1980's... he's carrying the ball even dribbling standing still - he puts his hands under the ball to scoop it back up before his drive in an effort to have some shifty options but those options can't exist in the 1980's rules. Negative two points. Turnover.
• 3:43 pause it at this moment and notice he stops his dribble with his right foot on the ground, lands his left, slides his left further back, then lifts and lands his right. Slides his pivot foot so traveling. Negative 3 points. Turnover.
• 3:58 hesitation to get by his defender in transition is a carrying violation because he slips his hand underneath the ball to cross it over. Negative assist. Turnover.
• Next play I actually think would be allowed, he uses some hesitation dribble but it's not done with a degree of carrying or palming that an 80's ref would call from what I can tell. Good basket!
• 4:20 he stutter steps on the catch. Honestly the refs in the 80's are prone to calling this a travel I'll give this one to him since it's subtle but in the 80's you had to be a lot more deliberate about your footwork on the catch than this. I'll give it to him but it's iffy.
• Next play is a great defensive board to transition dribble by Harden, Kyrie's Eurostep in slow motion technically looks to follow the gather 1-2 rule but it's close enough the 80's refs might have scrubbed it on Kyrie's finish even though Harden's play was clean. I'll ignore this and give it to Harden anyways as an assist!
• 4:53 His footwork has got to be a much cleaner "1 foot down, 2nd foot down, shoot" than this on spot-up jumpers. Refs would be prone to call those stuttery feet a travel in the 1980's as most 1980's spot up jumpers that I see are with one foot already obviously and firmly planted on the catch. But I'll be forgiving and give this to him again.

Down to 24 points and 7 assists from this but 12 more turnovers (for 18 total) on these plays alone. Also observe how absolutely crucial it is for him to use these extended gather steps and traveling violations as well as carrying and palming for creating space. It's actually precisely these 'violations' that he's taking advantage of for maximizing his space. If you take these moves away from him with a different rule set his game would have to change a lot because he'd be stuck wherever he caught it and unable to move past a defender a lot more often than we see him doing now. Not a big deal, he would basically look like an 80's player. Most of you knew this already. Some of you may not have. So there ya go.

[warriorfan]

https://chumley.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/12/25q817l.gif

[LoneyROY7]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.

[hiphopanonymous]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.
How so? Only a few old heads care about the changes to the extent they'd rather the changes not happen. Most old heads actually only want the changes acknowledged when discussions are to be had involving comparisons. It's also always nice to know where things come from, knowing how rules were sometimes helps explain how or why rules are what they are now. Knowing the rules can also help younger generations appreciate the older ones once they see what some of the limitations were (and other rules in other areas gave more freedom).

[Gimmedarock]

I know I’d rather watch Harden than any 90’s basketball player. I’ll take that stepback over a post up any day. Not saying one is better but I enjoy watching Harden.

[EagleFang]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.

New kids don't know the difference between Hitler and Helen Keller... or who they are at all. And they have smaller wieners than their father.

[Airupthere]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.

Nothing is stopping basketball's evolution. OP is just pointing out how rules affect what a player can do on the court. You don't have to take it as derogatory.

[iamgine]

I think these are easily changed if Harden knows the rules has changed, just like 80s players would find it easy to not handcheck if they go to the future.

The thing that differentiate today's players are their shooting ability and equally as important, shooting mentality. This is what truly create space.

[hiphopanonymous]

I think these are easily changed if Harden knows the rules has changed, just like 80s players would find it easy to not handcheck if they go to the future.

The thing that differentiate today's players are their shooting ability and equally as important, shooting mentality. This is what truly create space.
I agree - I think any player can adjust in any direction. Some have greater flexibility than others I'd think but everyone changes their game to adapt to different leagues as they progress through programs anyways (HS, AAU, Rec, Collegiate, etc) - all officiated differently even league to league within the same category or night to night depending on refs.

If you look though Harden was creating space the exact moments of his traveling starts, double step backs and hesitations - not really with his shot at least in this particular game. I really think the way the game is officiated right now it's actually these things that are largely creating so much separation. At least for a ball handler like him. Spot up guys are spreading the floor perhaps more through their shot yes but it always starts with the guy with the ball in his hands and whatever tools he uses to get his own separation first.

[Airupthere]

I think these are easily changed if Harden knows the rules has changed, just like 80s players would find it easy to not handcheck if they go to the future.

The thing that differentiate today's players are their shooting ability and equally as important, shooting mentality. This is what truly create space.

Players for the most part can adjust. I am not sure about certain aspects like the gather step. I am not sure about how easy it is to stop doing it if the rules suddenly decide to call it travelling. But it is sure hard to learn it if you have been taught pre 00s dribbling, because it just feels like traveling.

As for shooting, confidence comes from spacing afforded by the gather step and being protected by the referees too. Knowing that you have a sacred space to shoot, plus being able to get to any spot on the floor without being pushed around by the defender provides a lot of benefit to the shooter.

[Xiao Yao You]

but they are so much more skilled today! :roll:

[tpols]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/11/jordan2.gif

Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

[HoopsNY]

I know I’d rather watch Harden than any 90’s basketball player. I’ll take that stepback over a post up any day. Not saying one is better but I enjoy watching Harden.

Why do you specify the 90s? The 2000s was not much different. The game was at its defensive peak with a much slower pace between 1998-2003. It's the 2005 season that we see rule changes, but the league doesn't actually become the offensive show that it is currently until the 2014-15 season.

[Airupthere]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/11/jordan2.gif

Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

This is one of those plays where you try to do what you can in a tough situation. It wasn't as bad as palming the ball to try and take a shot only to continue live dribble. He didnt fake out oakley that way.

Today though, it seems to have become the bread and butter of a lot of players. IT got away with it a lot in his peak with the Celtics. Curry, Harden, Kryie, Tatum, Westbrook, Giannis.. a lot of players live off either taking an extra "gather" step, or picking up the ball to fake a shot only to continue live dribble.

[Xiao Yao You]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/11/jordan2.gif

Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

I don't remember it getting out of hand until AI

[tpols]

This is one of those plays where you try to do what you can in a tough situation. It wasn't as bad as palming the ball to try and take a shot only to continue live dribble. He didnt fake out oakley that way.

Today though, it seems to have become the bread and butter of a lot of players. IT got away with it a lot in his peak with the Celtics. Curry, Harden, Kryie, Tatum, Westbrook, Giannis.. a lot of players live off either taking an extra "gather" step, or picking up the ball to fake a shot only to continue live dribble.

I agree with the gather step nonsense, but that's mostly Harden that pulls that stunt. And its relatively new only a few years old. As far as palming only Durant and Gianni really abuse that... they'd get stripped at that height without palming. Kyrie is one of the best dribblers ever and doesn't need to palm at all, nor does he.

[hiphopanonymous]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/11/jordan2.gif

Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.
I do notice he does that, and Magic used to rake the ball across his body in a carrying kind of way a lot of times due to his height and high dribble in transition.

The game is fluid and calls change over time. But the envelope is pushed gradually and these small changes that cause officiating to change over time lead to bigger looking changes over the course of decades. Before MJ and Magic - due to their popularity - those slight dribbling hesitations were viewed with a greater degree of scrutiny. It's more confirming my point than denying it. The game has had another 30+ years of gradual shifting of the line in the sand even since those moves were pulling away from what was originally intended (palms down, finger tip only).

And again, I'm not here to say these guys don't do it the right way. I'm totally on board with how the game is played right now. I'm just not going to pretend James Harden goes back in time and blows everyone's mind with his skillset. He'd get them to blow their whistle before he blew anyone's mind.

[EagleFang]

One hundred million billion




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMq2Xrebyc8

[tpols]

I do notice he does that, and Magic used to rake the ball across his body in a carrying kind of way a lot of times due to his height and high dribble in transition.

The game is fluid and calls change over time. But the envelope is pushed gradually and these small changes that cause officiating to change over time lead to bigger looking changes over the course of decades. Before MJ and Magic - due to their popularity - those slight dribbling hesitations were viewed with a greater degree of scrutiny. It's more confirming my point than denying it. The game has had another 30+ years of gradual shifting of the line in the sand even since those moves were pulling away from what was originally intended (palms down, finger tip only).

And again, I'm not here to say these guys don't do it the right way. I'm totally on board with how the game is played right now. I'm just not going to pretend James Harden goes back in time and blows everyone's mind with his skillset. He'd get them to blow their whistle before he blew anyone's mind.

Harden's shooting, passing, and PnR orchestration are all elite. The only thing cheap about his game is that retarded two step back to the 3 pt line move, which nowadays he uses like once a game, and his flopping tactics, which he hasnt been using much at all in Brooklyn. So take that one shot out of his arsenal, he's still one of the best alley oop throwers, cutter finders, shooters, finishers, and ball handlers in the league... Harden isn't durant or giannis.. He's a very skilled ball handler and knows how to use his body to shield defenders from the ball at a magic level. His skill would shine through in any era. Ive never seen a ref call a star player for petty palms or travels over and over before. Like they're gonna give him five straight carries lol. That would be stupid for business.

[ShawkFactory]

This is probably MJs most famous dunk.

https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/11/jordan2.gif

Notice how after his first dribble, he completely palms the ball and holds it before throwing it back down again to setup the slam. Anybody could use a fine tooth comb to nitpick with, but people have been playing like this since the 70s or 80s. I remember a dean smith quote where he said pro ball is a joke because of all the traveling. Every era does this. I'm glad guys don't dribble like bob cousy any more.

That's a great call. But Jordan is probably the only guy who could have gotten away with something like that. Maybe big guys like Hakeem and Robinson.

It's not the same as carrying pretty much every time you move any move. It's not just a knock on Harden because pretty much everyone does it. Make defense so much harder.

[Airupthere]

Look at Tatum's move here at 2:44. Oubre jumped to blocked Tatum's shot when he saw Tatum lift the ball in a shooting position. But Tatum was able to continue that as a continuous live dribble. What chance would the defender have against that given that defenders inherently are just reactionary.

Clarkson did the same thing right after Tatum.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGB1V0iesDs

[hiphopanonymous]

Harden's shooting, passing, and PnR orchestration are all elite. The only thing cheap about his game is that retarded two step back to the 3 pt line move, which nowadays he uses like once a game, and his flopping tactics, which he hasnt been using much at all in Brooklyn. So take that one shot out of his arsenal, he's still one of the best alley oop throwers, cutter finders, shooters, finishers, and ball handlers in the league... Harden isn't durant or giannis.. He's a very skilled ball handler and knows how to use his body to shield defenders from the ball at a magic level. His skill would shine through in any era. Ive never seen a ref call a star player for petty palms or travels over and over before. Like they're gonna give him five straight carries lol. That would be stupid for business.

If he's a newcomer they're not going to go easy on him on calls - if he got warped to the 80's they wouldn't be like "oooh this guys good it's James Harden!" - they'd be sharks circling testing to see if there's any blood in the water as they do for any rookie. He'd have to establish himself before he'd earn any preferential treatment and the preferential treatment he could potentially receive then wouldn't be as extreme as we see now since the line in the sand back then was much closer to strict dribbling and traveling rules.

Also, yes his passes are very much on point and he's got good vision, yes he's capable of dribbling palms down under good control, and yes he's an outstanding finisher at the rim or open shooter.

But look at those plays how he got open. Every single possession that got him space to defeat the defender (by a mile sometimes) - was an old school violation. Every single one of them. He'd truly look like a different player under those rules. He'd not make any substantial gains of space with what I could see. Because his game isn't built on quickness, he's not quicker than anyone he's just shifty and it's based on very loose to non-existent calls. Sure he can dribble palms down but every time he displays this he doesn't get past anyone it's only once he palms it for a hesitation that he gets his man to go sideways before he steps past him. He'd have to learn a post-up backdown kind of dribble to get close to the rim if the defense was already set and he wasn't allowed those kinds of plays. I mean - it'd look like textbook 80's basketball it wouldn't look like what he does now.

[hiphopanonymous]

Look at Tatum's move here at 2:44. Oubre jumped to blocked Tatum's shot when he saw Tatum lift the ball in a shooting position. But Tatum was able to continue that as a continuous live dribble. What chance would the defender have against that given that defenders inherently are just reactionary.

Clarkson did the same thing right after Tatum.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGB1V0iesDs
Jeez his middle finger is almost at the exact bottom of the ball lol. This is how players practice to create space today it's just so different and of course with freedom like this the amount of space they are capable of achieving to escape a defender is incredible

[Lebron23]

Nba superstars gets superstar treatment. Harden is a very skilled player even without these violations.

[Airupthere]

Nba superstars gets superstar treatment. Harden is a very skilled player even without these violations.

Not saying he’s not. He is but one example. Im saying these plays which were violations before are being commonly allowed in todays game across the league. And it’s not necessarily a knock on todays game. As the others say, it’s just different.

[2much_knowledge]

Old heads will forever be the cancer of basketball's evolution.

Not everything evolves for the better. Just saying