MJ basically didn't lose with 1 star.. Everyone else lost a ton with many stars

[3ball]

* Magic lost a bunch with Kareem/Worthy

* Duncan lost a bunch with Manu/Parker/Kawhi

* Curry lost a bunch with Klay/Dray

* Lebron lost a bunch with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love

* Bird lost a bunch with McHale/Parish/DJ

* Shaq lost a bunch with Kobe and Penny


TLDR: everyone is a bunch of losers except MJ and Russell

[Kiddlovesnets]

I posted a chart like this one earlier, and the notable fact is that MJ has never lost when his teams were in championship window(top 4-5 by pre-season odds). When he has a good enough team to win, he always won:

https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png

[Manny98]

Well he played in an era that was so diluted that most teams didn't have more than 1 star player let alone 2

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187.......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136............ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095............ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[3ball]

I posted a chart like this one earlier, and the notable fact is that MJ has never lost when his teams were in championship window(top 4-5 by pre-season odds). When he has a good enough team to win, he always won:

https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png


If others could win 6 with Pippen, then MJ isn't goat

the only reason the Bulls were expected to win from 92-98' is MJ

The gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post above), so Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. And pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Ultimately, MJ isn't goat if Pippen is actually a top 30 all-time player.. It isn't goat to win 6 rings in a 2-star vs 2-star format if Pippen is a top 30 all-time player... Fortunately, the stats say Pippen is about 120th, and he never played anywhere near top 30 level.. There's no examples of him dominating or even meeting the level that many lower-ranked guys reached.

the reality is the Bulls developed a 3-peat system that could compete for the Finals with Pippen playing horribly in the 94' Playoffs (kukoc led the team in bpm, while pippen was 4th in WS/48 and averaged 21 on 40% against the Knicks.. Jordan's 30 ppg beats the Knicks easily)..

So tons of guys in pippen's place would've done better in 94'.. Jordan would've won the title with that 3-peat system and improved roster (Ewing almost beat Hakeem with 18 on 35%)

[3ball]

.

1992 ECSF

Pippen.... 16 on 40%
X-man..... 19 on 50%


1989 ECSF

M Jackson.... 15/3/11
Pippen........... 15/7/5


1996 ECSF

Pippen....... 15 on 33%
Oakley..... 13/11 on 50%


TLDR: Ewing couldn't win with Pippen because he couldn't win with sidekicks that out-produced Pippen 3 times (above)

[light]

* Magic lost a bunch with Kareem/Worthy

* Duncan lost a bunch with Manu/Parker/Kawhi

* Curry lost a bunch with Klay/Dray

* Lebron lost a bunch with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love

* Bird lost a bunch with McHale/Parish/DJ

* Shaq lost a bunch with Kobe and Penny


TLDR: everyone is a bunch of losers except MJ and Russell

You know as well as anyone that the Bulls didn't face anyone in the 90s.

The 1980s and the 2010s were eras chock full of talent and loaded teams.

And even though the league was going through expansion after 1988 the Bulls still lost in 1989, 1990 and 1995. It would have been impossible for the Bulls to win 6 titles outside of the 90's.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/watered-down-90s.png

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/rodman-knows-watered-down5f045262cd307c37.png

[Axe]

1-9

[SATAN]

You know as well as anyone that the Bulls didn't face anyone in the 90s.

The 1980s and the 2010s were eras chock full of talent and loaded teams.

And even though the league was going through expansion after 1988 the Bulls still lost in 1989, 1990 and 1995. It would have been impossible for the Bulls to win 6 titles outside of the 90's.

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/watered-down-90s.png

https://s4.gifyu.com/images/rodman-knows-watered-down5f045262cd307c37.png

Watch him claim that Rodman, the NBA player, was wrong.

[Airupthere]

Watch him claim that Rodman, the NBA player, was wrong.

Then would you hold rodmans opinions true even his take on today’s league?

[3ball]

Watch him claim that Rodman, the NBA player, was wrong.


You don't need to face a super-team unless you have a super-team yourself

In other words, it means nothing for lebron's super-teams to beat non-superteams.. and Jordan doesn't have to face super-teams because he didn't have one himself

Btw, lebron lost twice to 1-star teams and underdogs.. so it's a moot point anyway.. Jordan never lost to 1-star teams or underdogs

[SATAN]

Haha, yeah dude! Totally!

[SATAN]

Then would you hold rodmans opinions true even his take on today’s league?

Depends. He seems like a jaded old prick these days. Like many other ex players. Wannabe tough guys.

[3ball]

If a the Bulls were a 1-man team and Jordan was carrying them, then the league must've been weak for a 1 man team to dominate






was the league weak when Dirk carried the Mavs to the 2011 title?

The gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post #4 above), so Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. And pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Furthermore, league expansion diluted the top-heavy, super-team 80's - so the talent was spread around evenly in the 90's (parity) and only 2 stars were required to make the Finals... obviously the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star vs 2-star format.. aka Woolridge was unlucky to play with MJ when 2-star teams weren't nearly enough to win (super-team required.. 1 of 2 super-teams, aka impossible)

[SATAN]

Haha, yeah, man! Right on!

[3ball]

Haha, yeah, man! Right on!


For sure - Jordan beats lebron in individual offense (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), team offense, and winning rings as the best player

That's more than enough to know Jordan is far superior

[AussieSteve]

A more appropriate thread title might be:

MJ basically didn't play a team with multiple stars.. Everyone else regularly did

[72-10]

A more appropriate thread title might be:

MJ basically didn't play a team with multiple stars.. Everyone else regularly did

the Lakers guarded Michael quite well, they forced him to defer to teammates

[light]

1989 - choked
1990 - choked
1991 - Lakers injured, Kareem long gone, got lucky during expansion
1992 - Blazers no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1993 - Suns no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1995 - choked
1996 - Sonics no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1997 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion
1998 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion

3 chokes and 6 asterisks for MJ

[HoopsNY]

1989 - choked
1990 - choked
1991 - Lakers injured, Kareem long gone, got lucky during expansion
1992 - Blazers no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1993 - Suns no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1995 - choked
1996 - Sonics no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1997 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion
1998 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion

3 chokes and 6 asterisks for MJ

Someone is mad :lol

[ShawkFactory]

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187.......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136............ 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095............ 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk
You are legitimately out of your mind. Seriously...what is wrong with you?

[2much_knowledge]

* Magic lost a bunch with Kareem/Worthy

* Duncan lost a bunch with Manu/Parker/Kawhi

* Curry lost a bunch with Klay/Dray

* Lebron lost a bunch with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love

* Bird lost a bunch with McHale/Parish/DJ

* Shaq lost a bunch with Kobe and Penny


TLDR: everyone is a bunch of losers except MJ and Russell

They all know this. A 7 time allstar and role players is all it took. They just repeat the same excuses to feel better and soften the blow

[2much_knowledge]

1989 - choked
1990 - choked
1991 - Lakers injured, Kareem long gone, got lucky during expansion
1992 - Blazers no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1993 - Suns no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1995 - choked
1996 - Sonics no talent, 1 hall of famer, got lucky during expansion
1997 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion
1998 - Jazz 2 hall of famers vs Bulls 3, got lucky during expansion

3 chokes and 6 asterisks for MJ

Speaking of asterisks. Lets review shall we

2012 - short lockout season vs a team of inexperience youngsters
2013 - Brick that was redeem by ray allen
2016 - the most timely suspention ever
2020 - Mickey mouse cup vs an incomplete team

Sooooo impresive

[zeerghit]

Speaking of asterisks. Lets review shall we

2012 - short lockout season vs a team of inexperience youngsters
2013 - Brick that was redeem by ray allen
2016 - the most timely suspention ever
2020 - Mickey mouse cup vs an incomplete team

Sooooo impresive

2016 >>>>> all mj rings

[AussieSteve]

* Magic lost a bunch with Kareem/Worthy

* Duncan lost a bunch with Manu/Parker/Kawhi

* Curry lost a bunch with Klay/Dray

* Lebron lost a bunch with Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love

* Bird lost a bunch with McHale/Parish/DJ

* Shaq lost a bunch with Kobe and Penny


TLDR: everyone is a bunch of losers except MJ and Russell

Question. Did Jordan ever beat a team that was as good as any of the teams that Bird, Magic, LeBron etc. lost to? (2011 excluded)

[SATAN]

3ball's response to AussieSteve's question will not be predictable at all, nor the points offered subjective or deceiving in any way.

[2much_knowledge]

2016 >>>>> all mj rings

This would have been true if lebron wouldn't put his balls on Green's back and never got him suspended. Key word, IF

[Walk on Water]

Well he played in an era that was so diluted that most teams didn't have more than 1 star player let alone 2


BS. Play NBA Jam. Mamy stars.

[3ball]

Question. Did Jordan ever beat a team that was as good as any of the teams that Bird, Magic, LeBron etc. lost to? (2011 excluded)


They had super-teams, so the "comp" argument doesn't apply to players with super-teams - they ARE the comp - super-teams beating other super-teams or non-superteams isn't all that impressive.

Ultimately, the only wins that are truly impressive are non-superteams winning the title

Jordan has 6 non-superteam rings, aka GOAT (by far)

[3ball]

You don't need to face a super-team unless you have a super-team yourself

In other words, it means nothing for lebron's super-teams to beat non-superteams.. and Jordan doesn't have to face super-teams because he didn't have one himself

Btw, lebron lost twice to 1-star teams and underdogs.. so it's a moot point anyway.. Jordan never lost to 1-star teams or underdogs


No one

[AirBonner]

MJ has no chips without Pippen.

[3ball]

MJ has no chips without Pippen.


Blake Griffin was #3 for MVP in 2014... IT was #5 in 2017 before joining lebron.

Jordan won 6 chips with this caliber of a player as his sidekick

[AirBonner]

Blake Griffin was #3 for MVP in 2014... IT was #5 in 2017 before joining lebron.

Jordan won 6 chips with this caliber of a player as his sidekick

You saying 5’7 Isaiah Thomas is better than Pippen?

[SATAN]

MJ has no chips without Pippen.

Or Phil Jackson

[3ball]

Or Phil Jackson

Phil Jackson inherited a champion

Specifically, the 89' Bulls had just taken the champs to 6 games in the ECF despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (Pippen basically missed the last 2 games of that series)

So they were already a champion if they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - Phil didn't do anything but elevate Pippen to "migraine" status and sabatoge another sure title for Jordan in 1990.

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.

[2much_knowledge]

MJ has no chips without Pippen.

Lets see you come up with only one time lebron won a single chip with only a 7 time allstar. Just one.

Ill wait here

[SATAN]

MJ stans care not about context, only stats. :facepalm

I swear this is exactly what they were accusing LeBron stans of doing when I signed up. Talk of Excel spreadsheets ect.

[3ball]

MJ stans care not about context, only stats. :facepalm

I swear this is exactly what they were accusing LeBron stans of doing when I signed up. Talk of Excel spreadsheets ect.


Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly led a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to the title, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

Ultimately, anyone was going to win alongside the league's best player once expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's, so a special team (super-team) was no longer required to win like the 80's.

[97 bulls]

Phil Jackson inherited a champion

Specifically, the 89' Bulls had just taken the champs to 6 games in the ECF despite 10 on 40% from Pippen (Pippen basically missed the last 2 games of that series)

So they were already a champion if they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - Phil didn't do anything but elevate Pippen to "migraine" status and sabatoge another sure title for Jordan in 1990.

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.

Then why didnt MJ do it?

[SouBeachTalents]

You don't need to face a super-team unless you have a super-team yourself

In other words, it means nothing for lebron's super-teams to beat non-superteams.. and Jordan doesn't have to face super-teams because he didn't have one himself

Btw, lebron lost twice to 1-star teams and underdogs.. so it's a moot point anyway.. Jordan never lost to 1-star teams or underdogs
So then it must mean nothing when non super teams beat non super teams

[2much_knowledge]

Lets see you come up with only one time lebron won a single chip with only a 7 time allstar. Just one.

Ill wait here

Still no answer lol. They quick to pad themselves in the back when another post some stupid nonsense take. But go blind sometimes lol.

#StillWaiting

[SATAN]

It's clear you don't know anything about basketball so no-one bothers. Probably never played in your life.

[8Ball]

Then why didnt MJ do it?

Because only Pippen can win 55 games without Jordan.

[sdot_thadon]

Then why didnt MJ do it?

Ouch.

[hateraid]

This thread loses with 1 star

[hateraid]

Then why didnt MJ do it?

I used to go at it with you about these kind of topics. Now do you see why a cannot stand Jordan stans?

[3ba11]

bump

[3ba11]

Lots of guys would go 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Kyrie/Love, so Lebron didn't win with anything that others couldn't, whereas MJ won 6 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg - no one else did that more than twice.

So MJ won with what others couldn't and Lebron didn't... :confusedshrug:

[HighFlyer23]

Lots of guys would go 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Kyrie/Love, so Lebron didn't win with anything that others couldn't, whereas MJ won 6 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg - no one else did that more than twice.

So MJ won with what others couldn't and Lebron didn't... :confusedshrug:

Nobody cares you little ******

LeBron would body that bald headed ***** one on one

[Pip' N Rodman]

Lies.. Jordan lost with an All-star in 1990 and 1995

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nobody cares you little ******

LeBron would body that bald headed ***** one on one

Lebron is bald too. You can't mock someone for being bald when you're bald as well :facepalm