Bird's history of underperforming in the playoffs gets overlooked a lot by fans.

[coastalmarker99]

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowdays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

[beasted]

Great job breaking things down. Have never really looked at his numbers that deeply. Makes sense from an all time perspective that despite the championships and MVPs he's lower in the top 10 or just outside by many.

His stacked teams definitely don't help his case either.

[coastalmarker99]

Great job breaking things down. Have never really looked at his numbers that deeply. Makes sense from an all time perspective that despite the championships and MVPs he's lower in the top 10 or just outside by many.

His stacked teams definitely don't help his case either.



Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball touched (and kinda glossed over) on this in his "Greatest Ever" series. His scoring rate & efficiency regularly cratered in the Postseason despite playing on some historically stacked teams.

His lack of athleticism put him at a disadvantage against the elite defenses/teams who were able to gameplan against him for an entire series.

[3ball]

Everyone has a story like this (a littany of non-dominant stretches in the playoffs)

except the GOAT

[Manny98]

Everyone has a story like this (a littany of non-dominant stretches in the playoffs)

except the GOAT
1-9

[coastalmarker99]

Everyone has a story like this (a littany of non-dominant stretches in the playoffs)

except the GOAT



Jordan got the golden opportunity to feast on a weak era filled with expansion teams in the 1990s which made the league severely diluted in the 1990s, unlike the 1980s which had several great all-time teams that would have given the 1990's bulls a run for their money.



It was actually 6 teams added in just 7 years (2 in 1988, 2 in 1989, and 2 in 1995), which just happened to perfectly coincide with MJ's assent.

That's a major reason why offensive play cratered in that era to the point the league had to shorten the three-point line in 1995 just to stimulate offence.


It's a major reason why even the top teams usually had 1-2 starters who were straight trash (washed Duckworth on the Blazers, West/Dumas on the Suns, Brickowski on the Sonics, Keefe/Ostertag on the Jazz), which made a Bulls team that could go strong 7-deep so dominant.

[3ball]

1-9


Jordan averaged 36/7/8 during 1-9, while his 8 seeds lost by less than Lebron's high seeds in 14' or 18'

So thanks for helping us flesh out the facts behind MJ's goatness.. kudos

[BigShotBob]

Not a good breakdown at all. Pretty awful and devoid of all context and screams "I didn't watch any of these games"

No mention of Bird hanging 17-20-9 in the 81' Finals Game 1 in spite of shooting poorly for instance.

Go watch the games. They're all over youtube.

No need to take this thread seriously. Bird did a lot more than score. He's one of the best rebounding forwards of all time, and the best passing forward of all time. He also was a thief in the passing lanes. Scoring and shooting were not his only strengths and sometimes his best strengths.

Also in 1981 there was a sequences where he got 3 straight offensive rebounds over Moses Malone....

Yea. Go watch the games and remake this thread.

1 Star.

[1987_Lakers]

There are many false narratives in Nba history that don't make sense about the all-time greats of the game.


One is Bird was a clutch god in the playoffs that always raised his game.


Two is that Wilt was un clutch and an awful playoff performer


3 is that Lebron is not a big game performer


4 is that Kobe was a clutch killer in the playoffs


5 is that Shaq underperformed for his career

1. Bird has some huge moments in the playoffs, upped his game in '84 & '86 postseason which resulted in championships. Outplayed and beat Dr. J in the '81 ECF which I think is the most underrated playoff series ever, it was a blood bath. His clutch steal on Isiah in '87, probably the most famous steal ever, played great in that series too. His duel with Dominique in '88. etc. Also keep in mind that in '85 in the middle of the playoffs Bird got into a bar fight which resulted in a messed up finger on his shooting hand. Overall Bird did what he had to do in the playoffs.

2. Wilt's overall impact on team success just wasn't as good as it should of been, it's been documented how when Wilt joined a team the offense side of the ball didn't really improve for the team, and the team that he left saw no ill effects offensively, see 1969 Sixers & 1968 Lakers without Wilt and compare their offense with Wilt. Wilt was a known selfish player, he didn't play winning ball.

3. LeBron is a big game performer, the ones who say otherwise are just trolls and history will look at him as a big game performer excluding 2011.

4. I feel Kobe is overrated by the casuals, but true fans know his inefficiencies at times. He had some bad outings fg% wise no doubt, but also had numerous clutch moments throughout his career.

5. I feel if Shaq was more disciplined and worked harder, his peak could have lasted well into his 30's, that's where I think the "under-perform" part comes from, we all know he was a legend at his peak.

[coastalmarker99]

1. Bird has some huge moments in the playoffs, upped his game in '84 & '86 postseason which resulted in championships. Outplayed and beat Dr. J in the '81 ECF which I think is the most underrated playoff series ever, it was a blood bath. His clutch steal on Isiah in '87, probably the most famous steal ever, played great in that series too. His duel with Dominique in '88. etc. Also keep in mind that in '85 in the middle of the playoffs Bird got into a bar fight which resulted in a messed up finger on his shooting hand. Overall Bird did what he had to do in the playoffs.

2. Wilt's overall impact on team success just wasn't as good as it should of been, it's been documented how when Wilt joined a team the offense side of the ball didn't really improve for the team, and the team that he left saw no ill effects offensively, see 1969 Sixers & 1968 Lakers without Wilt and compare their offense with Wilt. Wilt was a known selfish player, he didn't play winning ball.

3. LeBron is a big game performer, the ones who say otherwise are just trolls and history will look at him as a big game performer excluding 2011.

4. I feel Kobe is overrated by the casuals, but true fans know his inefficiencies at times. He had some bad outings fg% wise no doubt, but also had numerous clutch moments throughout his career.

5. I feel if Shaq was more disciplined and worked harder, his peak could have lasted well into his 30's, that's where I think the "under-perform" part comes from, we all know he was a legend at his peak.


I agree with you about everything besides the points you made about Wilt


The 76ers had lost a 3-1 series lead in the '68 ECF's (because of a huge rash of injuries), and lost that series, in a game seven, by four points. Not only that, but the previous season, in 66-67, they overwhelmed the NBA with a 68-13 record, and a dominating world championship.

How about the '68-69 Sixers now without Wilt they were promptly dispatched in the first round of the playoffs, by a 48-34 Celtic team, 4-1.

And the Sixer slide would continue years after to the point that by Wilt's last season, in 72-73, they went a record 9-73.

Meanwhile, after that trade to LA, Wilt led LA to four Finals in five seasons (and a WCF in the other)...and a first-ever world championship in Los Angeles in that magical 71-72 season.

After Wilt retired following the 72-73 season (a 60-22 record and another Finals appearance), the Lakers dropped to a 47-35 season (even with Elmore Smith at center), and a 4-1 blowout loss in the first round of the playoffs. In the very next season, 74-75, the Lakers went 30-52. And they would not sniff the finals until Magic arrived in the 79-80 season.







I think the primary reason for some of Bird's bad series in the playoffs was that Bird's body started breaking down by like 85(including the driveway injury) and even before then his style of play, mpg and things like running miles before every game took its toll on him.




I think by the time the playoffs rolled around Bird's body needed a break and he probably was only at about 75% physically. Bird admitted as much when he gave a big interview with SI in 1992 after he announced his retirement and he also admitted that if Len had lived that he would have retired by 1988.

[Reggie43]

Stop trying too hard. Pretty sure nobody is claiming that Bird never had a bad game or a bad series everyone has them including whoever you have as Goat lol.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nice post OP. Agreed, Bird is slightly overrated and should probably be viewed as more of a Dirk Nowitski level player.

His first ring he was more on the level of 2014 Kawhi, his 2nd ring he had an extremely easy eastern conference path playing Sidney Moncrief and Bernard King who are not even top 100 players, his 3rd ring was a little impressive but he played Terry Cummings in the eastern conference finals.

Kawhi is a better player then Bird for damn sure. Better defender and better offensive player due to usage\carry ability and consistent efficiency.

[3ball]

Nice post OP. Agreed, Bird is slightly overrated and should probably be viewed as more of a Dirk Nowitski level player.

His first ring he was more on the level of 2014 Kawhi, his 2nd ring he had an extremely easy eastern conference path playing Sidney Moncrief and Bernard King who are not even top 100 players, his 3rd ring was a little impressive but he played Terry Cummings in the eastern conference finals.

Kawhi is a better player then Bird for damn sure. Better defender and better offensive player due to usage\carry ability and consistent efficiency.


Bird's peak level of play proved higher than Kawhi's though no?

Bird is the bigger, taller, and stronger talent, and his shooting + handle/pure passing/quick instinct fits any era, let alone the spacing era

He's a better Jokic

[coastalmarker99]

Bird's peak level of play proved higher than Kawhi's though no?

Bird is the bigger, taller, and stronger talent, and his shooting + handle/pure passing/quick instinct fits any era, let alone the spacing era

He's a better Jokic


Bird peak from 1984 to 1986 is only rivalled by Wilt's peak from 1966 to 1968


Alongside Jordan's peak from 1991 to 1993 and Kareem's peak from 1971 to 1973 and Lebron's peak from 2016 to 2018.



If I were to rank all of their peaks then


Wilt is number 1

Jordan number 2

Shaq number 3

Lebron number 4

Bird number 5

And Kareem number 6.

[jlip]

Was the OP copied from another thread? I remember an old thread from a few years ago on here with a similar breakdown.

With that being said, several pre- social media/ message forum era legends had low points and shortcomings that are overlooked in their overall analysis that modern players are criticized for daily. It's just the nature of the evolution of media and communication.

[Micku]

His 85 numbers I think was suffer due to injuries. He got into a fight and messed up his hand before the playoffs if I can recall.

But his 84-88 was his prime I would say.

I think the Celts failures are probably overlooked by fans tho. But back then, it wasn't as big as a deal as it is now. Bird did other things on the court to impact the game. Plus his career is over and we can look at in hindsight.

[Kblaze8855]

81 finals hate is a pretty good sign to bail. That series was nothing like the numbers suggested. Stat padding in multiple 30 point games really would have made him better in the eyes of people 40 years later....wouldn’t do much for them at the time. He flat out won them games and they are right there to watch online. People just hate without bothering. Some of those late game sequences were just crazy examples of will to win. It was a true do it all series an even half assed glance will make clear.

[light]

So does Jordan's.

[Lebron23]

Not a good breakdown at all. Pretty awful and devoid of all context and screams "I didn't watch any of these games"

No mention of Bird hanging 17-20-9 in the 81' Finals Game 1 in spite of shooting poorly for instance.

Go watch the games. They're all over youtube.

No need to take this thread seriously. Bird did a lot more than score. He's one of the best rebounding forwards of all time, and the best passing forward of all time. He also was a thief in the passing lanes. Scoring and shooting were not his only strengths and sometimes his best strengths.

Also in 1981 there was a sequences where he got 3 straight offensive rebounds over Moses Malone....

Yea. Go watch the games and remake this thread.

1 Star.

Sometime I wish you did the same thing to LeBron. But you are one of the most biased jack @$$ in this forum. LeBron is a higher tier than Bird.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Bird's peak level of play proved higher than Kawhi's though no?

Bird is the bigger, taller, and stronger talent, and his shooting + handle/pure passing/quick instinct fits any era, let alone the spacing era

He's a better Jokic

Kawhi is stronger, bigger hands, better length, more athletic, better defender, better scorer, better finisher above the rim, better ball handler, more clutch. I would still take Kawhi's 2019 playoff run over any Bird playoff run. Kawhi is pretty much superior in everything besides passing and kawhi is still a very good passer in his own right.

I don't see any wingspan numbers for bird but he doesn't look like he has a 7"3 wingspan like Kawhi. Also kawhi looks ripped/toned and bird looks like he just left a bar and drunk 5 beers with a couple cigarettes.

[BigShotBob]

Sometime I wish you did the same thing to LeBron. But you are one of the most biased jack @$$ in this forum. LeBron is a higher tier than Bird.

I'm not biased and I do not hate Lebron, but I just have Bird over him. He affected the game in more ways. They're neck and neck so that's all I will concede on that. Having seen both though I just can't take Lebron over him.

[warriorfan]

Bird peak from 1984 to 1986 is only rivalled by Wilt's peak from 1966 to 1968


Alongside Jordan's peak from 1991 to 1993 and Kareem's peak from 1971 to 1973 and Lebron's peak from 2016 to 2018.



If I were to rank all of their peaks then


Wilt is number 1

Jordan number 2

Shaq number 3

Lebron number 4

Bird number 5

And Kareem number 6.

This is how I see Bird’s career too. Even though he faulted a few times, during his 3x MVP run he was just about as good as anyone ever.

[Lebron23]

I'm not biased and I do not hate Lebron, but I just have Bird over him. He affected the game in more ways. They're neck and neck so that's all I will concede on that. Having seen both though I just can't take Lebron over him.

LeBron has more finals mvp, and regular season mvp than Bird. And won more championship. He likely double his championship by the end of his career. I don't think Bird is capable of leading a bad team like the 2007 and 2018 Cavaliers in the NBA Finals. Bird played in a very good team since his rookie season. And Prime LeBron was also the superior defender.

[mr4speed]

Ben Taylor of Thinking Basketball touched (and kinda glossed over) on this in his "Greatest Ever" series. His scoring rate & efficiency regularly cratered in the Postseason despite playing on some historically stacked teams.

His lack of athleticism put him at a disadvantage against the elite defenses/teams who were able to gameplan against him for an entire series.

I think before we rip Bird to shreds with stats some context is needed. I agree with this last sentence and think it is easy to look at stats and forget the focal point of every team Bird faced was centered around slowing/stopping and putting their best defender on Bird. I also think the "home court advantage" is a bit silly. Why? Look at the won-lost record for the Celtics and Sixers for 80 and 81 and 82. Celtics in these 3 years won 61 and 62 and 63 games. Sixers in this same 3 year span won 59 and 62 and 58 games. These teams were evenly matched and provided some classic and intense games and series. Bird in the 81 Finals was clearly the best Celtic player in that series. It is a shame Bird shunned the press at that time because he should have been voted FMVP. In the 83 series vs the Bucks, the entire team ( except for Bird) was ready to implode and hated their coach Bill Fitch who was a strict and unyielding disciplinarian. The game Bird missed in that series was because he had the flu. I am not sure what impact it had on him in the other games. Yes, Bird had bad games, but he was clearly Boston's best and most versatile player.

[warriorfan]

I'm not biased and I do not hate Lebron, but I just have Bird over him. He affected the game in more ways. They're neck and neck so that's all I will concede on that. Having seen both though I just can't take Lebron over him.

All lebron has on Bird is longevity basically. And that gets negated by his team hopping if we are talking about who would you rather draft onto your team.

[Lebron23]

All lebron has on Bird is longevity basically. And that gets negated by his team hopping if we are talking about who would you rather draft onto your team.

Look at Bird's supporting casts. More stacked than zero finals MVP Curry

[BigShotBob]

LeBron has more finals mvp, and regular season mvp than Bird. And won more championship. He likely double his championship by the end of his career. I don't think Bird is capable of leading a bad team like the 2007 and 2018 Cavaliers in the NBA Finals. Bird played in a very good team since his rookie season. And Prime LeBron was also the superior defender.

Bird did not have a "very good team" his rookie year. They went from 20 wins to the ECF. Mchale was buried on the bench and nobody knew who he was. Cedric Maxwell was a great player, but it would be the modern equivalent of a rookie coming in to join the Pistons and taking them to the ECF.

You have to watch Bird play. That's all there is to it. He can do anything from averaging 20+ ppg to the finals to averaging 16 rebounds and 6 offensive boards. And then 8-9 assists too. He's just too good.

[Lebron23]

Bird did not have a "very good team" his rookie year. They went from 20 wins to the ECF. Mchale was buried on the bench and nobody knew who he was. Cedric Maxwell was a great player, but it would be the modern equivalent of a rookie coming in to join the Pistons and taking them to the ECF.

You have to watch Bird play. That's all there is to it. He can do anything from averaging 20+ ppg to the finals to averaging 16 rebounds and 6 offensive boards. And then 8-9 assists too. He's just too good.

Same with LeBron. Despite being a massive under dog he put up some great numbers against the Warriors.

[Chick Stern]

Throughout their careers, in head to head Final competition, Bird beat Magic only once

[Axe]

Nice post OP. Agreed, Bird is slightly overrated and should probably be viewed as more of a Dirk Nowitski level player.

His first ring he was more on the level of 2014 Kawhi, his 2nd ring he had an extremely easy eastern conference path playing Sidney Moncrief and Bernard King who are not even top 100 players, his 3rd ring was a little impressive but he played Terry Cummings in the eastern conference finals.

Kawhi is a better player then Bird for damn sure. Better defender and better offensive player due to usage\carry ability and consistent efficiency.
And don't ever dare to forget that bird also gets extra points for not blowing a 3-1 lead in the postseason.

[coastalmarker99]

This is how I see Bird’s career too. Even though he faulted a few times, during his 3x MVP run he was just about as good as anyone ever.

Indeed the Celtics had no business beating the Showtime Lakers in the 1984 finals but Bird won it for them and it should be noted that if the Celtics had lost game 7 of that series that the voters were still going to give Bird the finals Mvp over any of the Lakers players that's how good he was in his prime.






Also, 1985-1986 Bird is the best season by any individual player ever besides Wilt in 1967


Bird was utterly unstoppable and at the peak of his powers throughout that year and it resulted in what many call the best team in Nba history in the 1986 Celtics.

[mehyaM24]

ya bird got some stinkers. a few of his playoff runs saw average shooting percentages (shot poorly vs detroit MULTIPLE series iirc). tbf some of those either came early in his career or late at the tailend of his prime. far from perfect though like many on here romantize. lebron's averaged better numbers, is a lot more durable and plays better defense.

peak vs peak can go either way however. dont get it twisted - bird was a basketball maestro

[mehyaM24]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcXv0JtzNQA&ab_channel=NBA

still my favorite mixtape of all time. nba's remastered footage brought these clips back to life!

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Bird has and always will be overrated by older fans (he should have never been seen as the GOAT as he was in the mid 80s, even then I knew it was some prisoner of the moment BS) but it always makes me :facepalm seeing the younger generation rank him out of the top 10, that lower end of the top 10 is about right, and considering how short his career was compared to the other GOATs it still says a lot about how great he was


His peak was as good as any but it was a pretty short one and still a little overrated imo, the Celtics were loaded like the Lakers but at least he played in the far stronger conference that actually played physical basketball, you weren't seeing much of that in the West back then. 84 and 86 were all-time great but otherwise he was pretty underwhelming, some of it due to injuries some of it due to him straight up underwhelming

I don't think he'd have those issues in today's game the way it's played though, the issues would have still persisted well into the early 10s but I think his game is better suited for the post freedom of movement NBA

[86Celtics]

Throughout their careers, in head to head Final competition, Bird beat Magic only once

And lost twice, the second time with a team ravaged by injuries. Not to mention that throughout the 80s the East was far stronger than the West. The Lakers were strolling to the finals in one of the weakest conferences in history while the Celtics had to battle the Bucks, the Sixers and later on the Pistons.

[Axe]

Throughout their careers, in head to head Final competition, Bird beat Magic only once
But his team were the first one to beat them in their finals matchups tho.

[StrongLurk]

Not by me, I've brought it up multiple times in my Bird vs KD threads.

I'd actually give KD the slightest edge over Bird as far as talent/skill/resume...but people don't want to accept that because they don't respect KD.

[getting_old]

Bird's regular season and playoff averages were extremely close

He wasn't a Michael Jordan dazzling out there all the time

He quietly went about his business in improving his team and playing any position required

in residence for the 86 and 87 seasons i'd watch with a dozen others in the common room, after a game his detractors would say "well Bird sure didn't do it tonight"

of course the C's won and Bird ended up a quiet 36/12/4 with a few steals....

[Gohan]

Curry>>>>> bird

[8Ball]

Bird swept Jordan twice in playoffs. And 1st round humiliating beatdown nonetheless.

What more you want from Bird?

[Axe]

Curry>>>>> bird
Bird still has more fmvps tho, so..

[Lebron23]

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowdays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

Great posts. I believed you because you were old enough to watch him.

[SouBeachTalents]

81 finals hate is a pretty good sign to bail. That series was nothing like the numbers suggested. Stat padding in multiple 30 point games really would have made him better in the eyes of people 40 years later....wouldn’t do much for them at the time. He flat out won them games and they are right there to watch online. People just hate without bothering. Some of those late game sequences were just crazy examples of will to win. It was a true do it all series an even half assed glance will make clear.
The only flaw with this argument is Bird averaged an identical 15 ppg in the games that were close in that series too.

[Soundwave]

Bird and Magic are honestly a little overrated because "they saved the league" from a marketing POV. Not that they aren't great, they are, but they are rated above players that I don't think they are actually better than (which is the literal definition of overrated).

Magic is almost always like a top 5 lock, and frankly I don't really know if he was better than Shaq and Kobe for example.

Jordan was always better than the both of them, he just wasn't gifted an All-Star team to play on like Bird and Magic got from basically day 1 of their careers. Bird knew it too hence the "God disguised as Michael Jordan" comment, you don't say that about someone you think you're better than.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird and Magic are honestly a little overrated because "they saved the league" from a marketing POV.

Magic is almost always like a top 5 lock, and frankly I don't really know if he was better than Shaq and Kobe for example.

Jordan was always better than the both of them, he just wasn't gifted an All-Star team to play on like Bird and Magic got from basically day 1 of their careers. Bird knew it too hence the "God disguised as Michael Jordan" comment, you don't say that about someone you think you're better than.
I honestly rank Shaq & Duncan ahead of both of them, and think Shaq & Hakeem were greater at their peak than either of them.

[3ba11]

Bird didn't play that great early in his playoff career just like many players do - Lebron wet the bed in the 07-11' Playoffs with bed wetting and losses with HCA

However,Bird had high APG and low turnovers or ball-domination, with goat clutch

I prefer a player that tries to fit in most of the game and just break stalemates as needed to direct momentum (ultimately take the toughest shots) ... but otherwise waits until the 4th quarter to take over

That was Bird... Goat brand of ball and clutch won't always look great individually on paper, but we know that his expert jumpshooting inspired a great brand of ball and chemistry/teammate performance, while also having goat clutch

[dankok8]

Bird's problem is he had a really short prime due to injuries. From 1984-1988 he was really good except in 88 against the Pistons.

[Lebron23]

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowdays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

Great Posts

[Lebron23]

Just because he was 6-0 vs. Team Jordan. It doesn't mean he under performed in the playoffs.

[Axe]

And he still has more rings than wilt.

[mr4speed]

Bird and Magic are honestly a little overrated because "they saved the league" from a marketing POV. Not that they aren't great, they are, but they are rated above players that I don't think they are actually better than (which is the literal definition of overrated).

Magic is almost always like a top 5 lock, and frankly I don't really know if he was better than Shaq and Kobe for example.

Jordan was always better than the both of them, he just wasn't gifted an All-Star team to play on like Bird and Magic got from basically day 1 of their careers. Bird knew it too hence the "God disguised as Michael Jordan" comment, you don't say that about someone you think you're better than.

Wait a minute "All star team"? Bird went to a team that the previous year only won 29 games. Magic did go to a 47 win and a playoff team with the best player in the NBA. But Bird as a rookie did not have Parish or McHale or DJ or Ainge or Walton. The only change I think to the roster was ML Carr and the new coach Bill Fitch and Tiny Archibald was coming off an injury. Boston with Bird as a rookie won 61 games for a 32 game turnaround. However the very next year both Dave Cowens and Pete Maravich were gone = retired and Ainge was a rookie and McHale was a bench player, and Boston won it all. I loved how Parish went about playing his game and never sought out the spotlight but if Parish does not play with Boston, is he in the hall of fame??. I only thought Boston was stacked after they got DJ.

[StrongLurk]

Wait a minute "All star team"? Bird went to a team that the previous year only won 29 games. Magic did go to a 47 win and a playoff team with the best player in the NBA. But Bird as a rookie did not have Parish or McHale or DJ or Ainge or Walton. The only change I think to the roster was ML Carr and the new coach Bill Fitch and Tiny Archibald was coming off an injury. Boston with Bird as a rookie won 61 games for a 32 game turnaround. However the very next year both Dave Cowens and Pete Maravich were gone = retired and Ainge was a rookie and McHale was a bench player, and Boston won it all. I loved how Parish went about playing his game and never sought out the spotlight but if Parish does not play with Boston, is he in the hall of fame??. I only thought Boston was stacked after they got DJ.

Was anyone here actually alive during this time and can better explain how the Celtics had such a massive turnaround once they got Rookie Larry Bird? Obviously he's one of the GOATs, but he was still a rookie and definitely worse than he was at his peak.

Surely there has to be way more to this story. Based on what I see on bref, it seems like Bird was an obvious boost, but the Celtics also got rid of some really bad fits in their role players (Curtis Rowe, Jo-Jo White, Billy Knight). I guess Bob McAdoo was traded and wasn't on the 79-80 team with Bird either. But a lot of the "stats" don't seem too different from each year. Were there key injuries on the 78-79 team?

Also I keep forgetting just how small the league was in 1980. Only 22 teams.

[BigShotBob]

Was anyone here actually alive during this time and can better explain how the Celtics had such a massive turnaround once they got Rookie Larry Bird? Obviously he's one of the GOATs, but he was still a rookie and definitely worse than he was at his peak.

Surely there has to be way more to this story. Based on what I see on bref, it seems like Bird was an obvious boost, but the Celtics also got rid of some really bad fits in their role players (Curtis Rowe, Jo-Jo White, Billy Knight). I guess Bob McAdoo was traded and wasn't on the 79-80 team with Bird either. But a lot of the "stats" don't seem too different from each year. Were there key injuries on the 78-79 team?

Also I keep forgetting just how small the league was in 1980. Only 22 teams.

Bird's literally the only reason for the massive turnaround. Without him they'd be like to win 40. That's what happens when an all-time great offensive and passing talent joins your organization and is given the keys

[StrongLurk]

Bird's literally the only reason for the massive turnaround. Without him they'd be like to win 40. That's what happens when an all-time great offensive and passing talent joins your organization and is given the keys

Ehh, I feel like there has to be more...I guess calling Bird a "rookie" is a little misleading in the sense that he was 23 years old already which is old as **** for a rookie.

[Round Mound]

Wait a minute "All star team"? Bird went to a team that the previous year only won 29 games. Magic did go to a 47 win and a playoff team with the best player in the NBA. But Bird as a rookie did not have Parish or McHale or DJ or Ainge or Walton. The only change I think to the roster was ML Carr and the new coach Bill Fitch and Tiny Archibald was coming off an injury. Boston with Bird as a rookie won 61 games for a 32 game turnaround. However the very next year both Dave Cowens and Pete Maravich were gone = retired and Ainge was a rookie and McHale was a bench player, and Boston won it all. I loved how Parish went about playing his game and never sought out the spotlight but if Parish does not play with Boston, is he in the hall of fame??. I only thought Boston was stacked after they got DJ.

:applause:

[BigShotBob]

Ehh, I feel like there has to be more...I guess calling Bird a "rookie" is a little misleading in the sense that he was 23 years old already which is old as **** for a rookie.

Dame did 3 years iirc and he didn't turn Portland around his rookie year like Bird did

[HoopsNY]

Wait a minute "All star team"? Bird went to a team that the previous year only won 29 games. Magic did go to a 47 win and a playoff team with the best player in the NBA. But Bird as a rookie did not have Parish or McHale or DJ or Ainge or Walton. The only change I think to the roster was ML Carr and the new coach Bill Fitch and Tiny Archibald was coming off an injury. Boston with Bird as a rookie won 61 games for a 32 game turnaround. However the very next year both Dave Cowens and Pete Maravich were gone = retired and Ainge was a rookie and McHale was a bench player, and Boston won it all. I loved how Parish went about playing his game and never sought out the spotlight but if Parish does not play with Boston, is he in the hall of fame??. I only thought Boston was stacked after they got DJ.

Good post. In addition, by 1984, McHale and Parish had come into their own and were all-stars, but their play wasn't elite by any stretch.

'84 Parish RS:19/11/2/2 on 55%
'84 McHale RS: 18/7/1/2 on 56%

'84 Parish PS: 15/11/1/2 on 48%
'84 McHale PS: 15/6/1/2 on 50%

How about Bird?

'84 Bird RS: 24/10/7/2 on 49%
'84 Bird PS: 28/11/6/2 on 53%

How about in the finals?

'84 Parish FS: 15/11/1/2 on 44%
'84 McHale FS: 13/6/1/1 on 45%

'84 Bird FS: 27/14/4/2 on 48%

McHale and Parish performed worse in the ECF as well. Bird doesn't get enough credit for his performances and is often said to have played alongside elite players. There is an element of truth to that, but we can't overlook what he did without those guys or at least a much lesser version of those guys.

Just look what happened when he started becoming injury prone.

'89 BOS w/o Bird: 40-36
'90 BOS w/o Bird: 5-2
'91 BOS w/o Bird: 10-12
'92 BOS w/o Bird: 20-17

Boston wasn't that great without Bird. Even in '87 they were 5-3 without him. These are generally decent records but nothing that stood out given the laundry list of talented veterans that were usually on their teams.

Also, a lot is made of Bird only beating Magic once in the finals, but I honestly don't think the Lakers would have beaten the '86 Celtics had they made the finals.

[86Celtics]

Also, a lot is made of Bird only beating Magic once in the finals, but I honestly don't think the Lakers would have beaten the '86 Celtics had they made the finals.

That's just Lakers fans trying to belittle Bird. He won in 84 and lost in 85. The 87 Celtics might have been even better than the 86 version but by the time they reached the Finals they were a shell of themselves having been decimated by injuries. Not to mention that the Celtics had to go through war in the toughest Eastern conference of all times just to reach the Finals whereas the Lakers cakewalked in the West.

This whole thread is agenda driven but that's nothing new in this place.

[mr4speed]

Good post. In addition, by 1984, McHale and Parish had come into their own and were all-stars, but their play wasn't elite by any stretch.

'84 Parish RS:19/11/2/2 on 55%
'84 McHale RS: 18/7/1/2 on 56%

'84 Parish PS: 15/11/1/2 on 48%
'84 McHale PS: 15/6/1/2 on 50%

How about Bird?

'84 Bird RS: 24/10/7/2 on 49%
'84 Bird PS: 28/11/6/2 on 53%

How about in the finals?

'84 Parish FS: 15/11/1/2 on 44%
'84 McHale FS: 13/6/1/1 on 45%

'84 Bird FS: 27/14/4/2 on 48%

McHale and Parish performed worse in the ECF as well. Bird doesn't get enough credit for his performances and is often said to have played alongside elite players. There is an element of truth to that, but we can't overlook what he did without those guys or at least a much lesser version of those guys.

Just look what happened when he started becoming injury prone.

'89 BOS w/o Bird: 40-36
'90 BOS w/o Bird: 5-2
'91 BOS w/o Bird: 10-12
'92 BOS w/o Bird: 20-17

Boston wasn't that great without Bird. Even in '87 they were 5-3 without him. These are generally decent records but nothing that stood out given the laundry list of talented veterans that were usually on their teams.

Also, a lot is made of Bird only beating Magic once in the finals, but I honestly don't think the Lakers would have beaten the '86 Celtics had they made the finals.

Thanks for posting that info = people forget how good Bird played and how determined he was to win in the 84 Finals. I always remember game 5 in Boston without A/C and that was one of Bird's greatest games IMO and people forget about it. Yes, the 86 Celtics would have beaten LA as Boston won both games that season and the win in LA was without McHale even playing.

[Lebron23]

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowdays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.) that 1983 bucks were tough to swept the celtics in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

Thing is, no one really cares if you underperform in the playoffs if you win rings as a major contributor. Unless you're LeBron of course :lol

[ILLsmak]

I will amend my 'great player' assessment to say I also take into account people at their worst.

-Smak

[3ba11]

Lebron has a longer list of playoff failures and bad performances that get ignored.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron has a longer list of playoff failures and bad performances that get ignored.
I guarantee Bird would have a higher % of his playoff performances be "bad", however you want to determine that, than LeBron would. LeBron's list of bad games would obviously be longer because he's played twice as long you doofus :lol