Statistical Comparison - Pippen at 2nd option vs Schrempf at 3rd option - 1991-1993

[3ball]

.
Pippen......... 19.1.. 7.5.. 6.5.. 54.1 ts.. 20.4 PER.. 0.168 ws/48... 3.3 obpm
Schrempf.... 17.5.. 9.5.. 4.5.. 59.9 ts.. 19.1 PER.. 0.169 ws/48... 3.0 obpm


TLDR: Schrempf's production at 3rd option was similar to Pippen's at 2nd option, and Schrempf was actually outplaying guys at his minute-level more than Pippen (ws/48), while also dominating Pippen in the 96' Finals.

Schrempf was taller, stronger, and a better shooter/rebounder/scorer.. More talented pound-for-pound, especially in this era

[coastalmarker99]

.
Pippen......... 19.1.. 7.5.. 6.5.. 54.1 ts.. 20.4 PER.. 0.168 ws/48... 3.3 obpm
Schrempf.... 17.5.. 9.5.. 4.5.. 59.9 ts.. 19.1 PER.. 0.169 ws/48... 3.0 obpm


TLDR: Schrempf's production at 3rd option was similar to Pippen's at 2nd option, and Schrempf was actually outplaying guys at his minute-level more than Pippen (ws/48), while also dominating Pippen in the 96' Finals.

Schrempf was taller, stronger, and a better shooter/rebounder/scorer.. More talented pound-for-pound, especially in this era


Stop it 3 ball just stop your Pippen hate enough is enough.:banghead:

[3ball]

Stop it 3 ball just stop your Pippen hate enough is enough.:banghead:


1996 FINALS

Pippen......... 15 on 34%
Schrempf..'.. 16 on 50%


^^^ pippen's prime stats were weak so anyone could achieve them, like when Robert Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals...

Or JR Smith averaged 18/8 on 67% in the 15' ECF... Or Larry Hughes averaged 22/6/5 in 05'..

Anyone could reach prime Pippen level because it sucked... Pippen was just the lucky bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[coastalmarker99]

1996 FINALS

Pippen......... 15 on 34%
Schrempf..'.. 16 on 50%


^^^ pippen's prime stats were weak so anyone could achieve them, like when Robert Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals...

Or JR Smith averaged 18/8 on 67% in the 15' ECF... Or Larry Hughes averaged 22/6/5 in 05'..

Anyone could reach prime Pippen level because it sucked... Pippen was just the lucky bum that won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery


Ah cmon 3ball don't you think you are being harsh calling Pippen a bum



I mean he was a great all-round player and defender plus leader with the Bulls from 1990 to 1998.


And also scoring is not everything as Pippen made winning plays in other areas of the game that get overlooked as time passes by.

[3ball]

Ah cmon 3ball don't you think you are being harsh calling Pippen a bum



I mean he was a great all-round player and defender plus leader with the Bulls from 1990 to 1998.


Jordan kept Pippen playing at peak Horry-level (18/10) all the time... Or peak JR Smith level... Or peak Hughes level... Or peak Schrempf... that was PIPPEN LEVEL

[coastalmarker99]

Jordan kept Pippen playing at peak Horry-level (18/10) all the time... Or peak JR Smith level... Or peak Hughes level... Or peak Schrempf... that was PIPPEN LEVEL

Stop it 3 ball :facepalm

[RRR3]

MJ would be Dillon Brooks in today’s NBA.

[RogueBorg]

1996 FINALS

Pippen......... 15 on 34%
Schrempf..'.. 16 on 50%


^^^ pippen's prime stats were weak so anyone could achieve them, like when Robert Horry averaged 18/10 on 55% in the 95' Finals...

Or JR Smith averaged 18/8 on 67% in the 15' ECF... Or Larry Hughes averaged 22/6/5 in 05'..



I always hear you guys railing against 3ball's opinions yet I have never once read anyone stating the numbers he posts to back his arguments are wrong.

He's not wrong.

[RRR3]

I always hear you guys railing against 3ball's opinions yet I have never once read anyone stating the numbers he posts to back his arguments are wrong.

He's not wrong.
He frequently lies about the stats he posts. He probably lied about these.

Anyone who thinks 3ball makes anything close to decent arguments that could remotely be said to be logical is either a complete imbecile or is too blinded by their love for MJ to admit 3ball is full of shit.

[ShawkFactory]

I always hear you guys railing against 3ball's opinions yet I have never once read anyone stating the numbers he posts to back his arguments are wrong.

He's not wrong.
He’s been making the same arguments for 6-7 years. People are simply tired of engaging. It’s just refuting and repeating the same shit over and over

[RRR3]

He’s also frequently misleading. For JR’s efficiency he lists his TS%, because it was much higher than his FG%. For Pippen he does the opposite. But he never tells us which measure of efficiency he’s using for either.

[RRR3]

He’s been making the same arguments for 6-7 years. People are simply tired of engaging. It’s just refuting and repeating the same shit over and over
There is something deeply psychologically wrong with him.

[Wally450]

Watch this...












LeBron James

[Sulico]

Didn't Pippen have more success without Jordan than Jordan without Pippen?

[HoopsNY]

I always hear you guys railing against 3ball's opinions yet I have never once read anyone stating the numbers he posts to back his arguments are wrong.

He's not wrong.

The statistics he posts are not incorrect. But with everything, you have to contextualize them. If people like myself want, we'll tear his arguments to bits. But it doesn't matter. 3ball is like a LeBron stan. He doesn't value context to interpret statistics correctly.

I mean, do you know of a single person that would say peak Schrempf was anywhere near peak or even prime Pippen? And I'm someone who regularly posts here to show how great of a player Schrempf was for Seattle in 1996.

[RRR3]

The statistics he posts are not incorrect. But with everything, you have to contextualize them. If people like myself want, we'll tear his arguments to bits. But it doesn't matter. 3ball is like a LeBron stan. He doesn't value context to interpret statistics correctly.

I mean, do you know of a single person that would say peak Schrempf was anywhere near peak or even prime Pippen? And I'm someone who regularly posts here to show how great of a player Schrempf was for Seattle in 1996.
They actually are a lot of the time. He fudges them to fit his agenda.

[AirBonner]

No Pippen no chip’n

[mehyaM24]

the data & objective measures disagree with your conclusion.

BPM/VORP for 1991-1993 Pippen
5.8 / 5.9
6.1 / 6.4
4.9 / 4.3
average: 5.3 / 17.1

BPM/VORP for 1991-1993 Schrempf
2 / 2.6
3.2 / 3.3
3.3 / 4.2
average: 2.8 / 10.1

pippen's average bpm is the equivalent of an all-star & all-nba season. schrempf's is that of a good starter. the difference couldn't be clearer and that's without defense accounted.

[3ball]

the data & objective measures disagree with your conclusion.

BPM/VORP for 1991-1993 Pippen
5.8 / 5.9
6.1 / 6.4
4.9 / 4.3
average: 5.3 / 17.1

BPM/VORP for 1991-1993 Schrempf
2 / 2.6
3.2 / 3.3
3.3 / 4.2
average: 2.8 / 10.1

pippen's average bpm is the equivalent of an all-star & all-nba season. schrempf's is that of a good starter. the difference couldn't be clearer and that's without defense accounted.


Half of BPM is DBPM, which the creators of the stat concede is simply a steals counter.

And VORP obviously benefits 2nd options over 3rd options, since the higher usage 2nd options will have higher value above replacement.

Otoh, stats like PER, WS/48 and OBPM are pure measures of offensive production compared to the league or players at their minute-level, and Schrempf clearly produced at Pippen's level and above

[light]

doh!

Dude, Detlef didn't defend or quarterback anything like Pippen did.

Think of the Bulls as an orchestra: Pippen was the conductor of the orchestra while Jordan was the virtuoso soloist.

https://www.boulderweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/AC-1.12.-picture-1-1.jpg

[mehyaM24]

Half of BPM is DBPM, which the creators of the stat concede is simply a steals counter.

And VORP obviously benefits 2nd options over 3rd options, since the higher usage 2nd options will have higher value above replacement.

Otoh, stats like PER, WS/48 and OBPM are pure measures of offensive production compared to the league or players at their minute-level, and Schrempf clearly produced at Pippen's level and above

you can't just ignore steals and blocks though. they also account for impact. plus BPM has been updated with more play by play data, which consequently affect defensive splits. we aren't comparing their individual dbpm's, which again, obviously would be inaccurate. but we don't ignore the ALL AROUND production either. that's what you seem to be doing though. per & winshares don't isolate impact and have far less nuance than bpm btw.

regardless, your comparison ignores the defensive end - the reason pippen was a MUCH better player.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Oh come on, Pippen isn't that bad. They were both on that 2000 blazers team and Pippen was papa (vorp leader), while Schrempf was a role player.

Schrempf is the german LaMarcus Aldridge, that's a more fair comparison for him.

[light]

Oh come on, Pippen isn't that bad. They were both on that 2000 blazers team and Pippen was papa (vorp leader), while Schrempf was a role player.

Schrempf is the german LaMarcus Aldridge, that's a more fair comparison for him.

Of course he's not that bad. Scottie Pippen is universally considered one of the top 25 players of all time while Detlef Schrempf is not even in the top 225.

OP doesn't stop to consider why that is.

[3ball]

Oh come on, Pippen isn't that bad. They were both on that 2000 blazers team and Pippen was papa (vorp leader), while Schrempf was a role player.

Schrempf is the german LaMarcus Aldridge, that's a more fair comparison for him.


Schrempf was a lot older in Portland, so that's a losing argument, and Pippen was a horrible role player in Portland and Houston - they were black marks on his career.

In their primes, Schrempf dominated Pippen in every way:


Career Playoffs H2H

Schrempf (https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=schrede01&player_id2=pippesc01)..'.. 16.3 on 44.3%
Pippen (https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=schrede01&player_id2=pippesc01)......... 15.7 on 34.3%


Career Regular Season H2H

Schrempf (https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=schrede01&player_id2=pippesc01)..'.. 16.4 on 49.5%
Pippen (https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=schrede01&player_id2=pippesc01)......... 16.8 on 46.0%