List of 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP

[3ball]

Since 1980 - Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options

So obviously, elite 1st options that played sidekick are far superior:

Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.

Ultimately, only Jordan lacked the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP sidekicks, or equal-scoring partners that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

[mehyaM24]

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

pippen was also top 10 in bpm every year from 91-98 (with the exception of 93). that is ELITE production and quite easily "1st option" stats.

[3ball]

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

pippen was also top 10 in bpm every year from 91-98 (with the exception of 93). that is ELITE production and quite easily "1st option" stats.


Wade, Kyrie, and AD have higher BPM than Pippen, but BPM is a garbage stat that amounts to a steals counter.

Specifically, half of BPM is DBPM, which the creators admit is a steals-counter.. that's from the horse's mouth.. So BPM is a losing argument




Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

avoid





List of 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP:

Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options

So obviously, elite 1st options that played sidekick are far superior:

Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.




Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

avoid





Ultimately, only Jordan lacked the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP sidekicks, or equal-scoring partners that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

[8Ball]

Scottie Pippen won 55 and 59 games without Jordan.

Jordan has yet to hit .500 without Pippen.

End thread.

[mehyaM24]

Wade, Kyrie, and AD have higher BPM than Pippen, but BPM is a garbage stat that amounts to a steals counter.

Specifically, half of BPM is DBPM, which the creators admit is a steals-counter.. that's from the horse's mouth.. So BPM is a losing argument

wrong. it accounts for steals AND blocks to go along with live, play by play data. you don't get to ignore OVERALL production just because it fits your narrative. sorry pal.

moreover the numbers i posted don't takeaway from pippen's stats. they were #1 option numbers in the 90s. so, unless you're saying that decade was weak then your OP was debunked.

[8Ball]

Pippen was a #1 option and team leader.

His career was stunted by Jordan like Harden in OKC.

[3ball]

wrong. it accounts for steals AND blocks to go along with live, play by play data. you don't get to ignore OVERALL production just because it fits your narrative. sorry pal.

moreover the numbers i posted don't takeaway from pippen's stats. they were #1 option numbers in the 90s. so, unless you're saying that decade was weak then your OP was debunked.


BPM doesn't use play-by-play data stop lying

the creators say it's a steals counter, hence Stockton destroying Pippen in bpm.. it's a nothing stat and being 8th in it or whatever you posted is nothing

[mehyaM24]

BPM doesn't use play-by-play data stop lying
.the creators say it's a steals counter, hence Stockton destroying Pippen in bpm.. it's a nothing stat and being 8th in it or whatever you posted is nothing

sure it does. read up on bpm 2.0 - the updated version says it there in plain print.

bpm also accounts for steals AND blocks. again, we don't look over ALL AROUND production because you prefer points and fg%. that isn't the way it works pal.

[3ball]

sure it does. read up on bpm 2.0 - the updated version says it there in plain print.

bpm also accounts for steals AND blcoks. again, we don't look over ALL AROUND production because you prefer points and fg%. that isn't the way it works pal.


There's no play-by-play data before 97' and BPM is a box score stat - the BPM's we're using from bballref don't use play-by-play

Hinging your argument on bpm proves I'm right

Ultimately, Pippen was a true 2nd option like Klay or tony parker and inferior to the elite 1st options sidekiks that everyone else had

[mehyaM24]

There's no play-by-play data before 97' and BPM is a box score stat - the BPM's we're using from bballref don't use play-by-play

Hinging your argument on bpm proves I'm right

Ultimately, Pippen was a true 2nd option like Klay or tony parker and inferior to the elite 1st options sidekiks that everyone else had

bpm 2.0 absolutely uses play by play. again read up on the updated version because its there in plain english.

and no. simply refusing to acknowledge blocks and steals doesn't help your argument. it deflates it. everything you do on the court matters, unfortunately.

[3ball]

bpm 2.0 absolutely uses play by play. again read up on the updated version because its there in plain english.

and no. simply refusing to acknowledge blocks and steals doesn't help your argument. it deflates it. everything you do on the court matters, unfortunately.


There is literally nothing on bballref about BPM 2.0 - it doesn't exist - the only thing on the website is BPM, which is a box score stat that they say is a steals-counter

Regardless, Pippen has horrible BPM and less than Kyrie.. It's a nothing argument and doesn't refute the point that Pippen was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed

[mehyaM24]

There is literally nothing on bballref about BPM 2.0 - it doesn't exist - the only thing on the website is BPM, which is a box score stat that they say is a steals-counter

Regardless, Pippen has horrible BPM and less than Kyrie.. It's a losing argument and proves me right - Pippen was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed

you have no idea what you're talking about. google "introduction to bpm 2.0". once again it DOES use play by play.

furthermore your op says pippen was a 2nd option YET he put up #1 option stats in the 90s. top 10 in bpm every season with the likes of ewing, drexler & miller. aka all #1 options. either the 90s were weak or your op is incorrect.

[3ball]

you have no idea what you're talking about. google "introduction to bpm 2.0". once again it DOES use play by play.

furthermore your op says pippen was a 2nd option YET he put up #1 option stats in the 90s. top 10 in bpm every season with the likes of ewing, drexler & miller. aka all #1 options. either the 90s were weak or your op is incorrect.


Okay, ignoring you going forward

There's nothing about a new bpm on bballref and we already knew that because play-by-play data doesn't exist before 97'

And Pippen's peak stats are shit compared to the peak stats of elite 1st options like Ewing (30/13 with 4.0 blocks).

Ultimately, Pippen was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed

[mehyaM24]

Okay, ignoring you going forward

There's nothing about a new bpm on bballref and we already knew that because play-by-play data doesn't exist before 97'

And Pippen's peak stats are shit compared to the peak stats of elite 1st options like Ewing (30/13 with 4.0 blocks).

Ultimately, Pippen was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed

of course there is. if you cant use google then that's your problem. nobody is here to hold your hand buddy.

once again, by the numbers, pippen averaged ALPHA production throughout the 90s. top 10 finishes in bpm/vorp every season. so if he was a #1 option then, but you're claiming he's really a #2, that would mean the 90s were trash. or simply your "analysis" was wrong. which one is it?

[3ball]

of course there is. if you cant use google then that's your problem. nobody is here to hold your hand buddy.

once again, by the numbers, pippen averaged ALPHA production throughout the 90s. top 10 finishes in bpm/vorp every season. so if he was a #1 option then, but you're claiming he's really a #2, that would mean the 90s were trash. or simply your "analysis" was wrong. which one is it?


You're just lying, so I'm going to ignore that

Pippen's peak ppg was 6-10 points below elite 1st options like Kobe, Curry, Kyrie, Wade AD, etc

So he was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else had

[3ball]

.
List of 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (since 1980):


Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.

Ultimately, only Jordan lacked the elite 1st option sidekicks and FMVP sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

[Ainosterhaspie]

bpm 2.0 absolutely uses play by play. again read up on the updated version because its there in plain english.

and no. simply refusing to acknowledge blocks and steals doesn't help your argument. it deflates it. everything you do on the court matters, unfortunately.

"Box Plus/Minus, Version 2.0 (BPM) is a basketball box score-based metric that estimates a basketball player’s contribution to the team when that player is on the court. It is based only on the information in the traditional basketball box score--no play-by-play data or non-traditional box score data (like dunks or deflections) are included."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

Where do you get that BPM 2.0 uses play by play? It's description explicitly states the opposite in the first paragraph.

[3ball]

List of 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (since 1980):


Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options and therefore inferior to elite 1st options that played sidekick like Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.

So only Jordan lacked elite 1st option sidekicks and FMVP sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

Ultimately, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner (1b) for most of their rings except the goat, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less in every playoffs.

Teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive attention for his entire career, (thus giving maximum integrity to his stats and rings).. Kenny Smith talks about MJ being the only 1-man show here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Accordingly, rings with 2nd options are greater than rings with 1b's and Jordan has 4 more rings with 2nd options than anyone else in history - that's his irrefutable goat argument.

And there's more clear-cut evidence - everyone that won 3 Finals needed a teammate to average 25 or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals - but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only MJ could win with Pippen.






Anyone that says Pippen was "top 30" or some other gross exaggeration will deal with some form of the facts above, in addition to recounting Pippen's many faceplants (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?383035-Where-do-you-guys-typically-rate-Scottie-Pippen-as-a-player&p=14262705&viewfull=1#post14262705) and non-top-100 performances..


https://media1.tenor.com/images/6496ab8651f31e462389da142c992af8/tenor.gif?itemid=4934655

[Bronbron23]

Since 1980 - Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options

So obviously, elite 1st options that played sidekick are far superior:

Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.

Ultimately, only Jordan lacked the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP sidekicks, or equal-scoring partners that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

Come on bruh. How gonna put pip along side roll players like rip,terry hamilton and horry. Pip, klay and even tony parker in his prime were on another level

[3ball]

Come on bruh. How gonna put pip along side roll players like rip,terry hamilton and horry. Pip, klay and even tony parker in his prime were on another level


Parker was FMVP and was erroneously included in the OP - he's superior to Pippen.

Ultimately, Pippen is the worst scorer of those 2nd options except for Horry..

But Pippen's caliber was such garbage that Horry achieved it in the 95' Finals (18/10 on 55%).. anyone achieved Pippen's caliber because it's a low bar - JR Smith reached it in the 15' ECF (18/8 on 67%).. Larry Hughes reached it in the 05' regular season and Playoffs

Btw, Jordan carried the Bulls past the 93' Hawks, while Pippen averaged 15 on 39% and was taken to the woodshed by Dominique and Willis.. there are tons of examples like this.. Pippen had a 2.0 BPM in the 93' Playoffs, or less than 13' Wade's 3.0, and his 16.9 PER was less than 14' Wade's 18.7.

[3ball]

.
Peak Stats Regular Season

09' Wade..'.... 30.2 and 7.5 apg... 30.4 PER
11' Wade.....'. 25.5 and 4.6 apg... 25.6 PER

21' Kyrie.....'.. 28.0 and 6.2 apg... 25.6 PER

18' AD........... 28.1 and 2.3 apg... 28.9 PER

94' Pippen.... 22.0 and 5.6 apg... 23.2 PER


Peak Stats Playoffs

06' Wade...... 28.4 and 5.7 apg... 26.9 PER (FMVP)
11' Wade...... 24.5 and 4.4 apg... 26.3 PER (1st option over Bron)

16' Kyrie....'... 25.2 and 4.7 apg... 24.4 PER

20' AD....'...'... 27.7 and 2.3 apg... 29.6 PER

94' Pippen.... 22.8 and 4.6 apg... 22.8 PER



^^^^^ Pippen's peak stats were 6-10 ppg less than elite 1st option sidekicks like Kobe, Curry, Wade or AD.. so he was a true 2nd option, and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed

[mehyaM24]

Where do you get that BPM 2.0 uses play by play? It's description explicitly states the opposite in the first paragraph.

was thinking of rpm while posting the bpm numbers. my apologies. that being said, op thinks winshares & per are "better metrics" than BPM - and ultimately ignores it because of blocks and steals. problem is these things are also recorded in per & winshares. overall bpm is more useful because its team-adjusted of a player's contribution and employs regression. in other words, more nuanced.

bpm/vorp both paint pippen as a top ten 90s player. his name is alongside other "alphas" like ewing, miller and drexler. will the op acknowledge this or duck the facts?

[mehyaM24]

Pippen's peak ppg was 6-10 points below elite 1st options like Kobe, Curry, Kyrie, Wade AD, etc

So he was a true 2nd option and therefore inferior to the elite 1st option sidekicks that everyone else had


once again, by the numbers, pippen averaged ALPHA production throughout the 90s. top 10 finishes in bpm/vorp every season. so if he was a #1 option then, but you're claiming he's really a #2, that would mean the 90s were trash. or simply your "analysis" was wrong. which one is it?


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/cb/6d/57cb6d1a3f29cb84ea93b6ef77820cf0.gif

[Reggie43]

Rip was the clear first option in their 2004 run and how the hell do you have a clear roleplayer like Horry in there lol, dude barely takes shots.

[3ball]

Rip was the clear first option in their 2004 run and how the hell do you have a clear roleplayer like Horry in there lol, dude barely takes shots.


Neither Rip nor Rasheed ever achieved elite 1st option stats

Klay actually did achieve elite 1st option stats by averaging about 30 in a series or 2.. so maybe he doesn't belong on the list, although they were early round series so I don't think that's enough to qualify

And Horry was 2nd option in 94' Playoffs.. thorpe and maxwell weren't performing as well

[Reggie43]

Rip not being elite doesnt mean he was a second option to anyone. The offense of those 2004 Pistons was built around Rip's scoring ability. Led the team in scoring and attempts while being the focal point of the offense. In the playoffs he was scoring 5 more points, attempting 5 more shots while being significantly more efficient than Rasheed and Chauncey who were both struggling from the field.

[Kblaze8855]

Rip was the Pistons first option. Led them in scoring in the regular season, playoffs, and finals in 04. I’m not sure how it’s debatable. He wasn’t the best player(Ben Wallace) but when 3ball doesn’t acknowledge defensive players contributing to winning....Rip is the man I suppose.

Also.....Tony Parker won a finals mvp. As much as he talks about that series he should know.

Tony wasn’t the finals mvp....but he was awarded it all the same.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Scottie Pippen won 55 and 59 games without Jordan.

Jordan has yet to hit .500 without Pippen.

End thread.

What was his playoffs record without MJ though? Did he make to the finals?

[mehyaM24]

What was his playoffs record without MJ though? Did he make to the finals?

better than jordan's playoff record without pippen. it isn't even close either.

[Kiddlovesnets]

better than jordan's playoff record without pippen. it isn't even close either.

Except the Bulls were a lottery caliber team in MJ’s first 3 years(before Pippen was drafted), and MJ took such a team to the playoffs. Pippen played with stacked blazers and the 1999-2000 blazers were preseason favorites to win title, and he didn’t show up in big games when it mattered:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2000_preseason_odds.html

[mehyaM24]

Except the Bulls were a lottery caliber team in MJ’s first 3 years(before Pippen was drafted), and MJ took such a team to the playoffs. Pippen played with stacked blazers and the 1999-2000 blazers were preseason favorites to win title, and he didn’t show up in big games when it mattered:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2000_preseason_odds.html

they weren't lottery caliber. the bottom eastern conference just sucked back then - and a below .500 record got you into the playoffs.

i'm not saying pippen>jordan but you're making a lame excuse.

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen was a #1 option and team leader.

His career was stunted by Jordan like Harden in OKC.

Pippen would have been at Burgerking

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

[Kiddlovesnets]

they weren't lottery caliber. the bottom eastern conference just sucked back then - and a below .500 record got you into the playoffs.

i'm not saying pippen>jordan but you're making a lame excuse.

According to preseason odds, the Bulls were 21st, 18th and 20th among all teams and they ain’t projected to be top 8 in the eastern conference.

https://i.ibb.co/s15GhMX/MJ-vs-Lebron-comparison.png

[mehyaM24]

chicago was mediocre before jordan, with jordan & weren't a .500 team until drafting pippen.

those odds aren't unexpected.

[Kiddlovesnets]

chicago was mediocre before jordan, with jordan & weren't a .500 team until drafting pippen.

those odds aren't unexpected.

The odds showed how bad the Bulls were, even with MJ. Magic said it in an interview that he would stay in college one more year if Chicago had the #1 pick that year and wanted to select him. This shows exactly what it was like to play for the Bulls, it was no better than the Cavaliers in 2002-2003 before they drafted Lebron.

[mehyaM24]

The odds showed how bad the Bulls were, even with MJ. Magic said it in an interview that he would stay in college one more year if Chicago had the #1 pick that year and wanted to select him. This shows exactly what it was like to play for the Bulls, it was no better than the Cavaliers in 2002-2003 before they drafted Lebron.

you're not saying anything i disagree with. they were "bad" until pippen was drafted and came into his own.


https://youtu.be/M79eJyW_T0M

here is rookie pippen in a do or die postseason game - bulls win their first playoff series that decade. he was going to be special no matter what.

[kawhileonard2]

Bulls were bad before Jordan and had they drafted Pippen first they still never would have even made the playoffs at all.

[kawhileonard2]

you're not saying anything i disagree with. they were "bad" until pippen was drafted and came into his own.


https://youtu.be/M79eJyW_T0M

here is rookie pippen in a do or die postseason game - bulls win their first playoff series that decade. he was going to be special no matter what.

Not really!

Pippen would have been at Burgerking

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

[mehyaM24]

i'm sure jordan helped a lot - he's one of the greatest players ever. the other stuff you're claiming is out there and doesn't warrant a response.

[Axe]

Another rubbish thread made by op

[HoopsNY]

Since 1980 - Pippen, Gasol, Terry, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker, Horry, Klay

aka "true" 2nd options

So obviously, elite 1st options that played sidekick are far superior:

Magic, Kareem, McHale, Dr. J, Worthy, Kobe, Shaq, KG, Wade, Kyrie, AD.

Ultimately, only Jordan lacked the elite 1st option sidekicks, FMVP sidekicks, or equal-scoring partners that everyone else enjoyed - he was stuck with a true 2nd option like Pippen and inferior team defenses (bulls had the #7 defense during 1st three-peat, and inferior defenses in Finals/ECF).

Another stupid post. Go look at the opposing team's second option's production in the finals before you go judging "elite 1st option sidekicks" for Chicago in those 6 championship runs.

I know the retort will be 1996. Well how about 1991 when Pippen outscored Chicago's opponents' 1st AND 2nd options? :lol

[AussieSteve]

So, @3ball...

A guy who:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option
...was a true 2nd option.

And a guy who:
- has never been All NBA 1st team and only once even been 2nd team
- has never polled a single vote in the MVP award
- has never won a player of the month award, even though they award them for each conference now and he has been in the east his whole career
- has never led a team to the playoffs, except if you count one season when his team was 37-30 with him and 12-3 without him.
... is an elite first option sidekick

Defend this 3ball.

[AussieSteve]

Here's another one for you @3ball...

A guy who:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option
...was a true 2nd option.

And a guy who:
- was never All NBA 1st team, or even 2nd team
- polled MVP votes only once, finishing 12th
- never won a player of the month award
- never went to the playoffs as his team's best player
... is an elite first option sidekick

Defend this one as well please 3ball

[3ball]

Another stupid post. Go look at the opposing team's second option's production in the finals before you go judging "elite 1st option sidekicks" for Chicago in those 6 championship runs.

I know the retort will be 1996. Well how about 1991 when Pippen outscored Chicago's opponents' 1st AND 2nd options? :lol


You don't get it - you're praising Pippen for outscoring the opposing #1 option once in single a series with 20 ppg, whereas I'm talking about sidekicks leading the ENTIRE PLAYOFFS in scoring like AD, or leading your team with 25-30 ppg like 02' Kobe, 11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 86' McHale, 85' Kareem or 87' Worthy..

It's no comparison - Pippen never played anywhere near the level of other winning sidekicks

[AussieSteve]

You don't get it - you're praising Pippen for outscoring the opposing #1 option once in single a series with 20 ppg, whereas I'm talking about sidekicks leading the ENTIRE PLAYOFFS in scoring like AD, or leading your team with 25-30 ppg like 02' Kobe, 11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 86' McHale, 85' Kareem or 87' Worthy..

It's no comparison - Pippen never played anywhere near the level of other winning sidekicks


So, who's the best player of these 3?

Player A:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP, and 6x in the top 11
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option

Player B:
- has never been All NBA 1st team and only once even been 2nd team
- has never polled a single vote in the MVP award
- has never won a player of the month award, even though they award them for each conference now and he has been in the east his whole career
- has never led a team to the playoffs, except if you count one season when his team was 37-30 with him and 12-3 without him (ie. better without him)

Player C
- was never All NBA 1st team, or even 2nd team
- polled MVP votes only once, finishing 12th
- never won a player of the month award
- never went to the playoffs as his team's best player

[8Ball]

What was his playoffs record without MJ though? Did he make to the finals?

Better than 1-9

[mehyaM24]

91-98 Pippen in regular-season BPM

91: #10
92: #6
94: #3
95: #3
96: #8
97: #10
98: #8

91-98 Pippen in regular-season Value over Replacement

91: #10
92: #5
93: #10
94: #5
95: #3
96: #7
97: #7
98: inside the top 10 when healthy (missed half the season)

every year pippen's average impact was that of a top 5-7 player. yet we are to believe he wasn't a 1st option :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

So, who's the best player of these 3?

Player A:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP, and 6x in the top 11
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option

Player B:
- has never been All NBA 1st team and only once even been 2nd team
- has never polled a single vote in the MVP award
- has never won a player of the month award, even though they award them for each conference now and he has been in the east his whole career
- has never led a team to the playoffs, except if you count one season when his team was 37-30 with him and 12-3 without him (ie. better without him)

Player C
- was never All NBA 1st team, or even 2nd team
- polled MVP votes only once, finishing 12th
- never won a player of the month award
- never went to the playoffs as his team's best player
Whichever one is Pippen is the worst

[Ainosterhaspie]

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to support OP. Everything he does is agenda first, objectivity second and he'll bounce from one stat to another if it serves his purpose, round 1.2 to 2 in the same post he rounds 1.8 to one. Everything serves the Jordan is immortal agenda for him and when it doesn't, he forces it to.

[sdot_thadon]

How did this thread even make it this far with Robert Horry listed among 2nd options? Geez op.

[Axe]

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to support OP. Everything he does is agenda first, objectivity second and he'll bounce from one stat to another if it serves his purpose, round 1.2 to 2 in the same post he rounds 1.8 to one. Everything serves the Jordan is immortal agenda for him and when it doesn't, he forces it to.
He does it because his own stupidity doesn't stop him from drawing attention in this board

[AussieSteve]

So, who's the best player of these 3?

Player A:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP, and 6x in the top 11
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option

Player B:
- has never been All NBA 1st team and only once even been 2nd team
- has never polled a single vote in the MVP award
- has never won a player of the month award, even though they award them for each conference now and he has been in the east his whole career
- has never led a team to the playoffs, except if you count one season when his team was 37-30 with him and 12-3 without him (ie. better without him)

Player C
- was never All NBA 1st team, or even 2nd team
- polled MVP votes only once, finishing 12th
- never won a player of the month award
- never went to the playoffs as his team's best player

Why does 3ball pretend posts like this don't exist?

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........... 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........... 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........... 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090.......... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[3ball]

Here's another one for you @3ball...

A guy who:
- was 7x All NBA, including 3x 1st team
- twice finished top 5 in MVP
- twice won league wide player of the month awards
- led a team to 55 wins and within a bucket of the conference finals, with Horace Grant as his 2nd option
...was a true 2nd option.

And a guy who:
- was never All NBA 1st team, or even 2nd team
- polled MVP votes only once, finishing 12th
- never won a player of the month award
- never went to the playoffs as his team's best player
... is an elite first option sidekick

Defend this one as well please 3ball


You're ignoring the truth or don't get it

the winning spotlight gave Pippen superior accolades even though he never produced or played anywhere near the guys he's ranked ahead of

Show me an example of Pippen averaging 23 and 11 apg while upsetting a 1-seed to make the conference finals - or show me where Pippen averaged 29/5/9 against the champs.. Pippen never scored, assisted, or led that well because he was an inferior scorer, passer and leader than KJ..

Show me where Pippen was 1st option on a b2b champ and FMVP like Worthy - why doesn't Pippen have any dominating series like these guys? Why is he rewarded for a 21 ppg peak and non-dominant play?... Oh I know why he still has the accolades - WINNING SPOTLIGHT (aka carried by Mike - see stats in previous post).

[AussieSteve]

You're ignoring the truth or don't get it

the winning spotlight gave Pippen superior accolades even though he never produced or played anywhere near the guys he's ranked ahead of

Show me an example of Pippen averaging 23 and 11 apg while upsetting a 1-seed to make the conference finals - or show me where Pippen averaged 29/5/9 against the champs.. Pippen never scored, assisted, or led that well because he was an inferior scorer, passer and leader than KJ..

Show me where Pippen was 1st option on a b2b champ and FMVP like Worthy - why doesn't Pippen have any dominating series like these guys? Why is he rewarded for a 21 ppg peak and non-dominant play?... Oh I know why he still has the accolades - WINNING SPOTLIGHT (aka carried by Mike - see stats in previous post).

So when Scottie was 1st team All NBA and 1st team All D for 3 straight years, with 3 strong finishes in MVP voting and two league player of the month awards, it was all because of the winning spotlight? Even though they didn't even win anything in 2 of those 3 years? Or was it all because he was being carried by a guy who was playing minor league baseball for more than half of that period?

Why didn't Kyrie and Worthy benefit from the winning spotlight in the same way?

Worthy won how many chips? Surely he had some winning spotlight on him? Yet he never even made an All NBA 2nd team, let alone a 1st team. Never made an All D team. Only polled MVP votes once, finishing 12th.

What about Kyrie? Made 3 straight finals at Cleveland. No NBA 1st teams. No MVP votes. No player of the months. No All D selections? Did he not get the winning spotlight either?

You have personally described Pippen's 2nd option in 1994 as "nothing more than a pay finisher". Yet he won 55 games and came within a bucket of the conference finals. What have Worthy or Kyrie ever done that rivals this?

Looking forward to your reply.

[3ball]

.
.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron couldn't make the 2nd Round without a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/6/5 acquisition and a top rebounding/defensive team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, young Jordan played in a conference that required a super-team to win, yet he made the 2nd Round with a simple rebounder (oakley).

Furthermore, the 05' Cavs had a much better team defense than the 90' Bulls (#12 vs #19), while Zydrunas was a top 5 rim protector/all-star with better offense than Pippen (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

Accordingly, 90' Jordan nearly led a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to the title, while Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy.

Ultimately, anyone was going to win alongside the league's best player once expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's, so a special team (super-team) was no longer required to win like the 80's.

[AussieSteve]

So when Scottie was 1st team All NBA and 1st team All D for 3 straight years, with 3 strong finishes in MVP voting and two league player of the month awards, it was all because of the winning spotlight? Even though they didn't even win anything in 2 of those 3 years? Or was it all because he was being carried by a guy who was playing minor league baseball for more than half of that period?

Why didn't Kyrie and Worthy benefit from the winning spotlight in the same way?

Worthy won how many chips? Surely he had some winning spotlight on him? Yet he never even made an All NBA 2nd team, let alone a 1st team. Never made an All D team. Only polled MVP votes once, finishing 12th.

What about Kyrie? Made 3 straight finals at Cleveland. No NBA 1st teams. No MVP votes. No player of the months. No All D selections? Did he not get the winning spotlight either?

You have personally described Pippen's 2nd option in 1994 as "nothing more than a pay finisher". Yet he won 55 games and came within a bucket of the conference finals. What have Worthy or Kyrie ever done that rivals this?

Looking forward to your reply.

^
A more appropriate thread cliff is that 3ball ignored this post. As he does with every post that proves him wrong

[3ball]

^
A more appropriate thread cliff is that 3ball ignored this post. As he does with every post that proves him wrong


Pippen was on the only 2-star dynasty the league has ever seen, while Worthy had to share accolades with 2-3 other stars

So Pippen got dynasty credit but actually never played anywhere near Worthy, Kobe, McHale, Dumars, Parker, Wade, Curry, AD , Kyrie or other sidekicks that were on dynasties/champions.. these guys achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP and are therefore superior to Pippen, a true 2nd option.

[AussieSteve]

Pippen was on the only 2-star dynasty the league has ever seen, while Worthy had to share accolades with 2-3 other stars

Who were the other stars that received accolades on Worthy's Lakers and Kyrie's Cavs?

And why didn't Kyrie and Worthy get the winning spotlight?

[3ball]

Who were the other stars that received accolades on Worthy's Lakers and Kyrie's Cavs?

And why didn't Kyrie and Worthy get the winning spotlight?


That's the whole point - they played better than Pippen ever did but never got pippen's accolades - somehow, pippen was rewarded for winning more than they were, despite never playing anywhere near their level

Ultimately, Pippen got dynasty credit but never actually played anywhere near Worthy, Kobe, McHale, Dumars, Parker, Wade, Curry, AD , Kyrie or other sidekicks that were on dynasties/champions..

these guys achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP and are therefore superior to Pippen, a true 2nd option.

[AussieSteve]

That's the whole point - they played better than Pippen ever did but never got pippen's accolades - somehow, pippen was rewarded for winning more than they were, despite never playing anywhere near their level

Ultimately, Pippen got dynasty credit but never actually played anywhere near Worthy, Kobe, McHale, Dumars, Parker, Wade, Curry, AD , Kyrie or other sidekicks that were on dynasties/champions..

these guys achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP and are therefore superior to Pippen, a true 2nd option.

So what you're saying is, it wasn't the winning spotlight at all, because only applied you Pippen. No other players were afforded accolades they didn't deserve because of team success. Only Pippen. Interesting.

Actually, I suppose two other players who come to mind are Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong. Both were given All Star berths in 94 and Horace with 3 All D selections. Clearly all because of the winning spotlight that only applied to Jordan's team mates.

[kawhileonard2]

Too many to name.

[GrayGoat]

MJ was a taller Allen Iverson before big Pip changed his career

[kawhileonard2]

MJ was a taller Allen Iverson before big Pip changed his career

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Jordan never played with a guy for a full season in the NBA that won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade.

[GrayGoat]

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Jordan never played with a guy for a full season in the NBA that won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade.

MJ didn’t leave because the bulls put a team around him

[kawhileonard2]

MJ didn’t leave because the bulls put a team around him

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Jordan never played with a guy for a full season in the NBA that won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade.

[GrayGoat]

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Jordan never played with a guy for a full season in the NBA that won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade.

MJ didn’t win shit till Jackson got a hold of him. You idiot

[kawhileonard2]

MJ didn’t win shit till Jackson got a hold of him. You idiot

Jordan turned an organization that drafted him that never won into a dynasty. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. He had to leave that organization to join forces with a guy who won as the man and then try to go back. Lebron leaving before ever winning with that organization that drafted to go to Miami is the definition of a coward.

Jordan never played with a guy for a full season in the NBA that won league or finals mvp. Lebron played with Shaq and Wade.


Considering Lebron never managed to win a gold medal without Kobe I'm going to say he is a coward for leaving an organization that drafted him and him never winning with them until he went back to form a superteam.

[bullettooth]

Chris Bosh in 2011 wasn't too bad. Unfortunately Wade couldn't carry the load and they ended up losing.

[GrayGoat]

Chips without Pippen? Phil Jackson?