Replace Kobe with Ray Allen on 2000-2002 Lakers, do they still win?

[TAZORAC]

If you replaced Kobe Bryant with Ray Allen on the 2000-2002 Lakers championship teams, do you think the Lakers still win?

[Gohan]

If you replaced Kobe Bryant with Ray Allen on the 2000-2002 Lakers championship teams, do you think the Lakers still win?

Hell no maybe in 2001

[Micku]

2000 is a tough one. Maybe, maybe not. It's too close to call because of that Portland series. And Kobe brought it home in that one game in Indiana. Ray Ray was good tho. Better shooter and equal as a scorer around this time. Not as good defensively.

2001, they may not go 15-1. Kobe killed the Spurs. Ray Ray could similar, but they won't have that good enough defense.

02, they coooould win, but those Kings were tough.

[BlackMamba8]

If you replaced Kobe Bryant with Ray Allen on the 2000-2002 Lakers championship teams, do you think the Lakers still win?

idiot

[SouBeachTalents]

'01 has such a huge margin of error I'd be confident in most elite perimeter players being able to win a title in Kobe's place that season, though they're obv not going 15-1. '00 Kobe hadn't quite made the leap to superstar yet, although this was his best defensive season. I think Allen could've won a title that year, but I'm not quite as confident as I would be in '01. '02 is the one most in doubt, Kobe did the heavy lifting against the Spurs while Shaq (for his standards) had a pretty subpar series, while the Kings were their most difficult opponent during the 3peat. It was a series where they frankly needed an extremely lucky break AND infamously bad officiating just to barely eek out a win. It's possible Allen wins a title that year, but if I was forced to pick I'd say no

[Kiddlovesnets]

2000 and 2001 yes, 2002 is debatable though.

[tpols]

I think they could get a ring or two. '01 and then maybe even '03 or '04... never know, ray allen was producing at a ridiculous rate scoring, but so was Kobe at times, and he was a better dribbler, passer, and playmaker. Ray Allen is more efficient scoring. Kobe also better defense which matters I guess but Ray Allen is a top 10 all time SG so I'd hope Shaq could win with him.

[HoopsNY]

They won in 2000 with Kobe playing terrible in the finals. In 2002, they faced a weak Nets team. 2001, Kobe shot the ball poorly. Allen was averaging 22 PPG then, so I don't see why not.

It's not like Kobe was stopping Reggie Miller or Allen Iverson in those finals. And Shaq was dominating every series.

[kawhileonard2]

2001 yes and maybe 2000

[HoopsNY]

I think they could get a ring or two. '01 and then maybe even '03 or '04... never know, ray allen was producing at a ridiculous rate scoring, but so was Kobe at times, and he was a better dribbler, passer, and playmaker. Ray Allen is more efficient scoring. Kobe also better defense which matters I guess but Ray Allen is a top 10 all time SG so I'd hope Shaq could win with him.

Allen's playmaking ability was underrated then. He came into the league as a two guard and ran the point a lot in his first couple of seasons. Not to mention, in 18 games in the 2001 playoffs, Allen put up 25/4/6 on 48%. I think LA wins with him all three years.

[Axe]

As long as ray allen doesn't miss more shots, they'll be fine.

[tpols]

They won in 2000 with Kobe playing terrible in the finals. In 2002, they faced a weak Nets team. 2001, Kobe shot the ball poorly. Allen was averaging 22 PPG then, so I don't see why not.

It's not like Kobe was stopping Reggie Miller or Allen Iverson in those finals. And Shaq was dominating every series.

They needed Kobe just to get to the Finals though in 2000. Portland was far tougher than Indiana and Kobe iced them. 2001? Kobe scored on 116 ORTG which is elite efficiency with more volume and dimes in the playoffs. Im not saying Ray is a bum playmaker but he's just not on Kobes level as a creative finisher, passer, or dribbler. Or defender.

[Axe]

They needed Kobe just to get to the Finals though in 2000. Portland was far tougher than Indiana and Kobe iced them. 2001? Kobe scored on 116 ORTG which is elite efficiency with more volume and dimes in the playoffs. Im not saying Ray is a bum playmaker but he's just not on Kobes level as a creative finisher, passer, or dribbler. Or defender.
I have nothing against kobe. I like the guy, even tho we all know that he cannot be reached from this sorry earth anymore. But with ray allen, at least you don't get to see a guy who's a ballhog and think the triangle is boring so he'd be more creative with his own shots. Thus, there's no feuds with shaq and he's fine with being second fiddle to him. It's a huge factor why phil jackson suffered his first loss in the finals 17 years ago because kobe has exposed himself to be 'uncoachable'. Well, at least during that time that is. But with that defeat, the franchise still chose to favor him over shaq and old phil. The result? No playoff berth after that year until the same franchise begged for the latter to come back for his position.

[TAZORAC]

I think you could replace Kobe with Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, hell even Reggie Miller and won the championship

[BlackMamba8]

I think you could replace Kobe with Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, hell even Reggie Miller and won the championship

I swear some people in here are stupid as ****

[iamgine]

The thing is, even if you re-run those seasons with Kobe, it's far from a guarantee they'd win a threepeat again. It took some luck to win it all three times in a row.

[HoopsNY]

They needed Kobe just to get to the Finals though in 2000. Portland was far tougher than Indiana and Kobe iced them. 2001? Kobe scored on 116 ORTG which is elite efficiency with more volume and dimes in the playoffs. Im not saying Ray is a bum playmaker but he's just not on Kobes level as a creative finisher, passer, or dribbler. Or defender.

I agree they might lose with Allen in the Portland series. Kobe was crucial, especially in games 6 and 7. So you have a point there.

[SouBeachTalents]

I agree they might lose with Allen in the Portland series. Kobe was crucial, especially in games 6 and 7. So you have a point there.
True, but the counterargument would be Kobe was pretty dreadful in the first 5 games outside of Game 3, they may not have even needed the Game 7 heroics if he doesn't have awful performances in Games 2 & 5

[ImKobe]

Allen wasn't anywhere near Kobe's level defensively nor when it came to running an offense, so it's hard to say they'd win more than one championship, even one might be a reach considering Kobe was vital for the Lakers to get past the Blazers in '00 and Spurs/Kings in '01-'02 and that Shaq never won a title without a true elite 2-way wing player who'd carry the team in crunch time. Allen's 3PT shooting combined with Shaq's dominance inside the paint could have still been enough offensively but you lose out on a lot on the other end.

[StrongLurk]

They do in 2000

[TAZORAC]

I swear some people in here are stupid as ****

Shaq was the most important player on those teams mamba

[2much_knowledge]

Thats basically throwing lockdown defense and playmaking ability out the window. Ray allen was never ever in the same level as Kobe and with Kobe, they squeaked by Portland and Sacramento.

Short answer, 1 year if any

[Lebron23]

Shaq was the most important player on those teams mamba

This Shaq put up better numbers than 2nd 3 peat Jordan

[LAL]

Would prime Kobe win 2/4 with the Heatles playing in the East?

You're lucky i didn't create a new topic about this.

[dankok8]

I think they'd win 1-2 titles in 2001 and possibly 2000 with a prime Allen in place of Kobe but it would be way more difficult.

[gengiskhan]

Yes.

Shaq was unstoppable with clutch players like Big shot Bob surrounding him.

Thats all he needs.

Put vince, mcgrady, AI, anyone. Shaq is winning that Championship.

[kawhileonard2]

Nope

[999Guy]

Ray Allen was better than Kobe in this time period. Ray was much better offensively.


I don’t know why people are pretending Kobe was like Luka or Harden as a passer. He was a good, not great playmaker, just like Ray Allen.

Ray was absolutely lethal in the playoffs during this period. I don’t think they miss a beat, even in a year like 02. In 00, their run would be much smoother.

[warriorfan]

Ray Allen was better than Kobe in this time period. Ray was much better offensively.


I don’t know why people are pretending Kobe was like Luka or Harden as a passer. He was a good, not great playmaker, just like Ray Allen.

Ray was absolutely lethal in the playoffs during this period. I don’t think they miss a beat, even in a year like 02. In 00, their run would be much smoother.

you are a clown :roll:

i hope to god this is some lazy ass troll account

[Manny98]

Ray Allen was better than Kobe in this time period. Ray was much better offensively.


I don’t know why people are pretending Kobe was like Luka or Harden as a passer. He was a good, not great playmaker, just like Ray Allen.

Ray was absolutely lethal in the playoffs during this period. I don’t think they miss a beat, even in a year like 02. In 00, their run would be much smoother.

:facepalm

[Neal Romer]

Ray Allen was better than Kobe in this time period. Ray was much better offensively.


I don’t know why people are pretending Kobe was like Luka or Harden as a passer. He was a good, not great playmaker, just like Ray Allen.

Ray was absolutely lethal in the playoffs during this period. I don’t think they miss a beat, even in a year like 02. In 00, their run would be much smoother.

He was an excellent playmaker when he wanted to be.

He just didnt to want to that often.

[999Guy]

you are a clown :roll:

i hope to god this is some lazy ass troll account

Maybe you're stupid or you're just ignorant. But I don't know why a a Curry jock rider of all people would doubt Ray Allen.

You realize in a world where Shaq and Kobe were on the same team in their absolute primes, Ray Allen's team had the #1 offense in 2001?

And then he carried them in the playoffs. All his supporting cast shot like shit and he did nearly 50% from 3 and the field on volume. With a With a 6 assist to 2.4 turnover ratio.

So 25/6/4 with low turnovers and 61 TS% (in a 51TS% league)in an ECF carry job run.

That's closer to a Steve Nash playoff run than some janky ass Kobe one where he forces a ton of shots, gambles on defense, and gets injured at some point has Shaq carry him through.

01 Ray should be compared to Kobe's absolute best solo seasons like 08 or 09. Not his Shaq backpack years. The degree of difficulty and dominance is not close in the late 90's to early 00's between them to me. Ray played a harder style, on a harder team to do it and did it better.

And he wasn't some bad defender. He was smart and athletic. Not too stingy but not a soft defender even when old.

Sounds a lot like some crybaby in GS to me. Idk how much you thought you knew about this era but deep down you know what I posted is true in light of all this. Ray Allen and Kobe were absolutely same level at worst, but most likely Ray was just better. Super fukcing good offensive guy.


Ray Allen vs 01 Sixers: 27P/3R/5.4A on 47/51/97 shooting(.613 TS%). 2.1 TOV and 42 minutes per game

Kobe vs 01 Sixers: 24.6 P/7.8R/5.8A ON 41/33/84 shooting(50.5 TS%). 3.6 TOV and 47 minutes per game

[sdot_thadon]

I've always felt any elite wing was going to chip with Shaq in his prime. The question is the degree of difficulty imo. Looking at the playoff numbers Ray had at that time he'd have done fine in Kobes place but maybe not better in 02. I'm imagining what a wing combo of Allen and Glen Rice look like in 2000 though for sure.

[gengiskhan]

I think you could replace Kobe with Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, hell even Reggie Miller and won the championship

Look....That 1999 - 2004 Shaq is PEAK PRIME Shaq. 27 - 31 YO.

I've never seen more dominant force of nature in the paint than him in my NBA watching years. And I've see D'Rob, Mutombo, Zo, Ewing, Hakeem.

If Shaq-kobe duo can go 3-1 3-peat. Shaq-other guys can go 4-0 probably even 4-peat by letting Shaq win that 4th FMVP and not sabotage the team chemistry like 2004 Kobe.

In those years, lazy or rap distraction or showboating in hollywood, Shaq could do no wrong just because of his dominance. NBA had no answer.

and that includes "Sacramento Queens" as Shaq would say.