Payton had more All-NBA than Pippen and was better scorer/passer/defender/producer

[3ball]

So there's no argument for Pippen over Payton and the winning spotlight simply inflates Pippen in the all-time rankings

this PROVES that pippen is overrated by the winning spotlight

Payton even destroyed Pippen heads-up in the 96' Finals.

Carry on

[TAZORAC]

Yes Payton was a better player

[3ball]

Yes Payton was a better player



So Pippen isn't top 30 all-time or anywhere near, and the winning spotlight simply inflated his accolades and ranking

[HoopsNY]

You're saying this like there is some shame in Payton being as good or better than Pippen. You must think GP was garbage then.

[3ball]

You're saying this like there is some shame in Payton being as good or better than Pippen. You must think GP was garbage then.


If you concede that Payton > Pippen, then you agree that Pippen isn't top 30 all-time or anywhere near, and the winning spotlight simply inflated his accolades and ranking

And I don't think GP was garbage; I know that Pippen was

[tpols]

You're saying this like there is some shame in Payton being as good or better than Pippen. You must think GP was garbage then.

Nobody has Gary Payton in their top 30 though. There are many media lists with Pippen even top 25 next to guys like Charles Barkley and David Robinson. So he is massively overrated.

[HoopsNY]

Nobody has Gary Payton in their top 30 though. There are many media lists with Pippen even top 25 next to guys like Charles Barkley and David Robinson. So he is massively overrated.

This is a valid point.

[HoopsNY]

If you concede that Payton > Pippen, then you agree that Pippen isn't top 30 all-time or anywhere near, and the winning spotlight simply inflated his accolades and ranking

And I don't think GP was garbage; I know that Pippen was

Fair point about all time rankings, though this doesn't mean that Pippen was garbage, especially if you rank GP and Pippen close together.

[mehyaM24]

so many things wrong. where to start? 90s pippen had 7 all-league teams compared to payton's 6. pippen also had 7 all-defensive teams compared to payton's 6.

here are their respective numbers in relation to impact

90s pippen in the regular-season
5.2 bpm
51.2 vorp
20.4 per

90s payton in the regular-season
4.0 bpm
36.0 vorp
19 per

90s pippen in the playoffs
6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp
19.4 per

90s payton in the playoffs
3.0 bpm
4.0 vorp
17.2 per

contrary to your perception, pippen beats payton at every turn.

[ShawkFactory]

You made a thread last week about how Detlef Shrempf was better than Pippen.

Isn't it a little counter-intuitive to then make a Payton > Pippen one?

[3ball]

so many things wrong. where to start? 90s pippen had 7 all-league teams compared to payton's 6. pippen also had 7 all-defensive teams compared to payton's 6.

here are their respective numbers in relation to impact

90s pippen in the regular-season
5.2 bpm
51.2 vorp
20.4 per

90s payton in the regular-season
4.0 bpm
36.0 vorp
19 per

90s pippen in the playoffs
6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp
19.4 per

90s payton in the playoffs
3.0 bpm
4.0 vorp
17.2 per

contrary to your perception, pippen beats payton at every turn.


No one is fooled by your selective years that include Payton's rookie years but exclude Pippen's.

Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight

[RRR3]

Another sleepless night coming right up for Snivelball

[3ball]

This is a valid point.


So it's a valid point when tpols says it but not 3ball?.. :whatever:

[mehyaM24]

No one is fooled by your selective years that include Payton's rookie years but exclude Pippen's.

Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight

the 90s were when both players were in their prime, so nothing selective about that at all. even if you wanted to include pippens "rookie years" though, he still beats payton in BPM/PER/VORP. both in the regular-season and playoffs. blocks & steals are also part of defending - which is why you noted "SPG" just now. we know that pippen is one of the BEST help defenders in history, so counting paytons all-defensive teams but not pippens wont work.

the "winning spotlight" isn't a valid excuse. sorry pal. got anything else?

[3ball]

the 90s were when both players were in their prime, so nothing selective about that at all. even if you wanted to include pippens "rookie years" though, he still beats payton in BPM/PER/VORP. both in the regular-season and playoffs.blocks and steals are also part of defending. which is why you listed "SPG" just now. and we know that pippen is one of the best help defenders in history. so, counting payton's all-defensive teams but not pippens doesn't work.

the "winning spotlight" isn't a good enough excuse. sorry pal. got anything else?


Again, you're including Payton's rookie years and excluding Pippen's, while also excluding Payton's best years from 00-03'

Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight

[mehyaM24]

Again, you're including Payton's rookie years and excluding Pippen's, while also excluding some of Payton's best PER seasons from 00-03'

Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight

ya and if you include both their rookie years, 88-99 pippen still beats 90-99 payton in the metrics posted. per/bpm/vorp with MORE all-teams & defensive selections. once again, they all favor pippen.

ignoring the facts and repeating things i already educated you on isn't an argument. try another one.

[3ball]

ya and if you include both their rookie years, 88-99 pippen still beats 90-99 payton in the metrics posted. per/bpm/vorp with MORE all-teams & defensive selections. once again, they all favor pippen.

ignoring the facts and repeating things i already educated you on isn't an argument. try another one.


No, you're fudging the rookie years AND excluding Payton's best PER seasons from 00-03'.

So the point stands - Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen only has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight.

(btw, VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to look at individual seasons - Payton has higher peak VORP)

[mehyaM24]

No, you're fudging the rookie years AND excluding Payton's best PER seasons from 00-03'.

So the point stands - Payton had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight.

(btw, VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to look at individual seasons - Payton has higher peak VORP)

i already included their rookie years, and am comparing their primes respectively. nothing about that is "fudged" or misleading. also things like efficiency, spg, apg, ppg are all calculated in bpm. we know that bpm is better than raw stats because it accounts for pace while isolating individual impact.

again, pippen's prime was in the 90s. same with payton's. payton nor pippen's peak was from 2001-2003 so there is no point bringing up those years. pippen's first 10 years in VORP > payton's as well.

[3ball]

i already included their rookie years, and am comparing their primes respectively. nothing about that is "fudged" or misleading. also things like efficiency, spg, apg, ppg are all calculated in bpm. we know that bpm is better than raw stats because it accounts for pace while isolating individual impact.

again, pippen's prime was in the 90s. same with payton's. payton nor pippen's peak was from 2001-2003 so there is no point bringing up those years. pippen's first 10 years in VORP > payton's as well.


You're excluding Payton's best PER seasons from 00-03'.

Payton simply had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight.

(btw, VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to look at individual seasons - Payton has higher peak VORP)

[mehyaM24]

You're excluding Payton's best PER seasons from 00-03'.

Payton simply had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight.

(btw, VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to look at individual seasons - Payton has higher peak VORP)

payton had his best years in the 90s where he posted better impact numbers (bpm) and higher Value Over Replacement (VORP). 96-98 payton also had a better playoff per than he did from 00-03. again, the rest of your numbers are already accounted for in bpm. which takes pace into account. going by the superior set of metrics, pippen was objectively a better player.

anything else?

[3ball]

payton had his best years in the 90s where he posted better impact numbers (bpm) and higher Value Over Replacement (VORP). 96-98 payton also had a better playoff per than he did from 00-03. again, the rest of your numbers are already accounted for in bpm. which takes pace into account. going by the superior set of metrics, pippen was objectively a better player.

anything else?


You're comparing their stats but excluding Payton's best statistical seasons

Payton simply had higher PPG, APG, efficiency, SPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM... Basically everything along with more All-NBA... Pippen has DBPM (a defensive rebound counter, aka Bird's stat) and winning spotlight.

(btw, VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to look at individual seasons - Payton has higher peak VORP)

[tpols]

i already included their rookie years, and am comparing their primes respectively. nothing about that is "fudged" or misleading. also things like efficiency, spg, apg, ppg are all calculated in bpm. we know that bpm is better than raw stats because it accounts for pace while isolating individual impact.

again, pippen's prime was in the 90s. same with payton's. payton nor pippen's peak was from 2001-2003 so there is no point bringing up those years. pippen's first 10 years in VORP > payton's as well.

Payton was much better in the early 2000s than Pippen was. But Pippen also came into the league earlier. So of course you would include some of GP's best statistical seasons... You're being a troll by omitting them.

[mehyaM24]

playoffs included, payton's best statistical years came in the 90s. where he posted his best bpm/vorp. again, these numbers you are repeating are all accounted for in bpm/vorp. which adjust for pace of play. we don't need the raw numbers when we have superior, isolated impact data.

find another argument.

[mehyaM24]

Payton was much better in the early 2000s than Pippen was. But Pippen also came into the league earlier. So of course you would include some of GP's best statistical seasons... You're being a troll by ommitimg them.

payton's best years were in the 90s. ditto with pippen. this is a statistical fact, and nothing about it is trolling. i'm not going to do the regular-season numbers over. since you want to include the "early 00s", though, here is a quick tabulation:

1988-2000 playoff pippen
5 bpm
14 vorp
19 per

1991-2003 playoff payton
3 bpm
5 vorp
18 per

adding the 00s is simply a waste of time. neither players were at their best then.

[Manny98]

He bashes Pippen more than he does LeBron nowadays :oldlol:

[3ball]

payton's best years were in the 90s. ditto with pippen. this is a statistical fact, and nothing about it is trolling. i'm not going to do the regular-season numbers over. since you want to include the "early 00s", though, here is a quick tabulation:

1988-2000 playoff pippen
5 bpm
14 vorp
19 per

1991-2003 playoff payton
3 bpm
5 vorp
18 per

adding the 00s is simply a waste of time. neither players were at their best then.


Payton was top 6 for MVP for 8 straight years from 94-02'.. (edit: he was 9th in 95' and 99')

Pippen isn't on this level

In addition to being more valuable, Payton leads everything in the regular season and outplayed Pippen heads-up when it mattered (Finals), while having superior all-nba accolade

So it's not even close - Payton is easily superior to Pippen, but Pippen is ranked far higher due to winning spotlight (getting carried by Mike (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492026-List-of-2nd-options-on-champions-that-never-achieved-elite-1st-option-stats-or-FMVP&p=14287742&viewfull=1#post14287742))..

Pippen is simply vastly overrated and nowhere near top 30.. career stats like PER have him at about 140th

[mehyaM24]

Payton was top 6 for MVP for 8 straight years from 94-02'.. (edit: he was 9th in 95' and 99')

Pippen isn't on this level

In addition to being more valuable, Payton leads everything in the regular season and outplayed Pippen heads-up when it mattered (Finals), while having superior all-nba accolade

So it's not even close - Payton is easily superior to Pippen, but Pippen is ranked far higher due to winning spotlight (getting carried by Mike (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492026-List-of-2nd-options-on-champions-that-never-achieved-elite-1st-option-stats-or-FMVP&p=14287742&viewfull=1#post14287742))..

Pippen is simply vastly overrated and nowhere near top 30.. career stats like PER have him at about 140th

pippen was voted top 5 TWICE in the 90s. in payton's entire career he only finished top 5 once.

so not only was prime pippen a better mvp candidate, but he also had better impact stats in the regular-season and playoffs. the "spotlight" was just a byproduct of his individual success. the same success that painted him a better player than payton.

[ImKobe]

pippen was voted top 5 TWICE in the 90s. in payton's entire career he only finished top 5 once.

so not only was prime pippen a better mvp candidate, but he also had better impact stats in the regular-season and playoffs. the "spotlight" was just a byproduct of his individual success. the same success that painted him a better player than payton.

Let's be honest, the second top 5 vote was because Jordan was damn near unanimous MVP in '96 (which he should have been) with Pippen receiving zero first place votes. It's damn near criminal that Payton finished behind Pippen that year despite winning DPOY and being the best player on a 64-18 team. Pippen wasn't a 1b player on a 72-10 team, he was far below Jordan statistically.

[3ball]

pippen was voted top 5 TWICE in the 90s. in payton's entire career he only finished top 5 once.

so not only was prime pippen a better mvp candidate, but he also had better impact stats in the regular-season and playoffs. the "spotlight" was just a byproduct of his individual success. the same success that painted him a better player than payton.


Pippen never produced at a higher level than 05' Hughes or Horry in the 95' Finals - that was his caliber and there's zero examples of him playing better

Otoh, guys like KJ dominated Magic and Hakeem with premium production, or Worthy had a series of 23 on 72% or was #1 option on b2b champs... Kobe dominated Duncan in 02', or Wade dominated the 11' Finals, while AD led the league in playoff scoring... So everyone enjoyed elite 1st options at sidekick except Jordan, who was stuck with a true 2nd option that produced like 05' Hughes, along with inferior team defenses.

So Pippen doesn't compare to Payton, who was a superior scorer, passer, leader, and led teams to various 1 seeds and even the Finals (where he dominated Pippen and only lost because of MJ)

[Manny98]

Payton was the better on ball defender

Pippen was the better team/help defender

I think you're too harsh on Pippen 3ball

[3ball]

Payton was the better on ball defender

Pippen was the better team/help defender

I think you're too harsh on Pippen 3ball


I was watching some Paul Pierce highlights the other day and he destroys Pippen

Heck, he actually did well guarding Kobe in the 08' Finals, whereas Pippen was destroyed by baby Kobe

[mehyaM24]

Let's be honest, the second top 5 vote was because Jordan was damn near unanimous MVP in '96 (which he should have been) with Pippen receiving zero first place votes. It's damn near criminal that Payton finished behind Pippen that year despite winning DPOY and being the best player on a 64-18 team. Pippen wasn't a 1b player on a 72-10 team, he was far below Jordan statistically.

nothing about that is "honest" though. pippen was actually a lead candidate for MVP before his injury (just before AS break). his case was so strong that jordan advocated for pippen winning the award. and rightfully so. scottie was top 7 in winshares, top 8 in value over replacement and bpm. what makes these numbers more impresive though is that they came alongside jordan - who was looked at on offense first. that and these are numbers which nosedived post injury.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-04-16-9604160144-story.html

would he have won? probably not. but using jordan as an excuse is weak. by your logic, pippen would have more TOP finishes. still more than payton though. :oldlol:

[AussieSteve]

When some one corners 3ball in a thread he just abandons it and makes a new thread.

Reply to me in the other thread 3ball. Tell me why Pippen is the only one who benefited from the "winning spotlight". Tell me how a guy playing baseball was carrying him to accolades.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen never produced at a higher level than 05' Hughes or Horry in the 95' Finals - that was his caliber and there's zero examples of him playing better

Otoh, guys like KJ dominated Magic and Hakeem with premium production, or Worthy had a series of 23 on 72% or was #1 option on b2b champs... Kobe dominated Duncan in 02', or Wade dominated the 11' Finals, while AD led the league in playoff scoring... So everyone enjoyed elite 1st options at sidekick except Jordan, who was stuck with a true 2nd option that produced like 05' Hughes, along with inferior team defenses.

So Pippen doesn't compare to Payton, who was a superior scorer, passer, leader, and led teams to various 1 seeds and even the Finals (where he dominated Pippen and only lost because of MJ)

that's not true. pippen's 91 finals alone is better than most #1 options from that era.

comparing him to larry hughes and jr smith is you admitting jordan won in a WEAK era.

[FKAri]

Can't go wrong with either. Unless you're 3ball of course.

When some one corners 3ball in a thread he just abandons it and makes a new thread.
Yep. He's done that to me too. lol.

[HoopsNY]

so many things wrong. where to start? 90s pippen had 7 all-league teams compared to payton's 6. pippen also had 7 all-defensive teams compared to payton's 6.

here are their respective numbers in relation to impact

90s pippen in the regular-season
5.2 bpm
51.2 vorp
20.4 per

90s payton in the regular-season
4.0 bpm
36.0 vorp
19 per

90s pippen in the playoffs
6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp
19.4 per

90s payton in the playoffs
3.0 bpm
4.0 vorp
17.2 per

contrary to your perception, pippen beats payton at every turn.

This is using samples only from the 90s, though. The fact is when Kemp left, Payton became the undisputed captain and go to player, especially when Vin Baker had his demise.

Payton's best years continued onward from 1999-2003, where he was a consistent offensive and defensive threat. Payton averaged 22/5/9/2 on 45% during those years. And this was also up to the age of 34.

In those five years, he was All-NBA and All-Defensive 4 out of the 5 years. And he was putting up these numbers in the height of the defensive era.

[HoopsNY]

So it's a valid point when tpols says it but not 3ball?.. :whatever:

Did you not see me tell you "fair point"?

[mehyaM24]

This is using samples only from the 90s, though. The fact is when Kemp left, Payton became the undisputed captain and go to player, especially when Vin Baker had his demise.

Payton's best years continued onward from 1999-2003, where he was a consistent offensive and defensive threat. Payton averaged 22/5/9/2 on 45% during those years. And this was also up to the age of 34.

In those five years, he was All-NBA and All-Defensive 4 out of the 5 years. And he was putting up these numbers in the height of the defensive era.

sure, but payton was past his prime in 2002 & 2003. most of his best years occured in the 90s like the data suggests. you could add 2000 & 2001 in there and i wouldn't disagree. what makes pippens numbers "special" though are that he played with jordan, who took a lot of shots and was always high usage.

i expanded the years a page ago though (playoffs)

1988-2000 playoff pippen
5 bpm
14 vorp
19 per

1991-2003 playoff payton
3 bpm
5 vorp
18 per

overall pippen's defense had more impact because he was better on help. i also believe their playmaking is comparable (pippen playing in the triangle deflates his output). what payton does better though is score.

[Axe]

Op is a dunce

[HoopsNY]

i already included their rookie years, and am comparing their primes respectively. nothing about that is "fudged" or misleading. also things like efficiency, spg, apg, ppg are all calculated in bpm. we know that bpm is better than raw stats because it accounts for pace while isolating individual impact.

again, pippen's prime was in the 90s. same with payton's. payton nor pippen's peak was from 2001-2003 so there is no point bringing up those years. pippen's first 10 years in VORP > payton's as well.

3ball is not wrong though. You would have to begin from 1987, but all of that is useless IMO. The fact is, what Payton did between 1994-2003 really solidifies him as at least being on par, if not better, than Pippen.

The debate really shows the disparity when people rank Pippen. Where is he ranked compared to Payton? Most people rank Pippen in the top 30....I haven't really seen a list where Payton is even in the top 50. They're at least the same tier, even if you, by chance, gave Pippen a slight edge.

[HoopsNY]

sure, but payton was past his prime in 2002 & 2003. most of his best years occured in the 90s like the data suggests. you could add 2000 & 2001 in there and i wouldn't disagree. what makes pippens numbers "special" though are that he played with jordan, who took a lot of shots and was always high usage.

i expanded the years a page ago though (playoffs)

1988-2000 playoff pippen
5 bpm
14 vorp
19 per

1991-2003 playoff payton
3 bpm
5 vorp
18 per

overall pippen's defense had more impact because he was better on help. i also believe their playmaking is comparable (pippen playing in the triangle deflates his output). what payton does better though is score.

I tend to focus on prime/peak years a bit more, so I think those numbers are a bit more relevant. VORP is a cumulative statistic, so Pippen wins there by virtue of playing in nearly triple the amount of games. Their overall numbers are similar in both the regular season and playoffs.

But this is really skewed because from 1999-03, Payton was on an island by himself, while for the other years, he had an alcoholic teammate in Baker, and peak Kemp for a few years.

Scottie played alongside MJ, the greatest player of all time. That immediately helps him in this conversation, greatly. In addition, he joins with Hakeem and Barkley in 1999, and then a stacked Portland team in 2000.

But even if you gave Pippen the nod, then fine. I can reason with that somewhat. But the disparity in their rankings is too great and for once, 3ball is right.

[mehyaM24]

I tend to focus on prime/peak years a bit more, so I think those numbers are a bit more relevant. VORP is a cumulative statistic, so Pippen wins there by virtue of playing in nearly triple the amount of games. Their overall numbers are similar in both the regular season and playoffs.

But this is really skewed because from 1999-03, Payton was on an island by himself, while for the other years, he had an alcoholic teammate in Baker, and peak Kemp for a few years.

Scottie played alongside MJ, the greatest player of all time. That immediately helps him in this conversation, greatly. In addition, he joins with Hakeem and Barkley in 1999, and then a stacked Portland team in 2000.

But even if you gave Pippen the nod, then fine. I can reason with that somewhat. But the disparity in their rankings is too great and for once, 3ball is right.

ya and i suspect the regular-season numbers are also in pippen's corner (he often played hurt in the postseason which lowered his production). VORP is a cumulative stat, you are right, but since it adjusts for pace and possession its still one of the better impact measures. better than raw totals, winshares and per (which i also included).

your point about payton having his own team is a good one, but he, like pippen, would have also played behind jordan. when you aren't a #1 it can absolutely help you percentages, but stuff like volume scoring and BIG overall numbers aren't usually a thing. pippen as a #2 fairing well in many of these categories is a plus. and suggests he was producing alpha production like other #1s.

saying 3ball is "right" sounds pretty dumb, no offense. he is arguing that pippen doesn't compare to payton, and that his success hinges on "spotlight". how exactly does that work?

[HoopsNY]

ya and i suspect the regular-season numbers are also in pippen's corner (he often played hurt in the postseason which lowered his production). VORP is a cumultive stat, you are right, but since its adjusts for pace and possession its still one of the better impact measures. better than raw totals, winshares and per (which i also included).

your point about payton having his own team is a good one, but he, like pippen, would have also played behind jordan. when you aren't a #1 it can absolutely help you percentages, but things like volume scoring and BIG overall numbers aren't usually a thing. pippen as a #2 fairing well in many of these categories is a plus. and suggests he was producing alpha production like other #1s.

saying 3ball is "right" sounds pretty dumb, no offense. he is arguing that pippen doesn't compare to payton, and that his success hinges on "spotlight". how exactly does that work?

What I mean is, switch roles, and no one is mentioning Pippen, while everyone is mentioning GP. I think we can both agree there.

What I mean by him being right is the disparity and understanding how GP is weighed on the scales. Throughout the 90s, and I know cause I was an avid fan, GP did not get the same recognition as Pippen did, so 3ball's "winning spotlight" argument does check out there.

Even in 2000, GP was an MVP contender, but the Blazers were the ones in the WCF. Pippen was arguably the best player for Portland and got that respect, which he deserved.

But again, it's not a fair comparison. Portland had stacked the deck for two seasons. If Pippen is on an island alone, he doesn't make the playoffs, and certainly doesn't produce anywhere near the way GP did.

My takeaway from this is that GP should be ranked higher or more evenly with Pippen and not necessarily that Pippen should drop down on the all-time list.

[HoopsNY]

I also have to disagree that Pippen was that much better than GP on help defense. I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but GP was a wizard where help defense was concerned.

Pippen's help defense gains a lot more attention because Chicago went deeper into the playoffs more consistently, which again goes back to being a teammate of MJ.

If the roles are reversed, I can almost guarantee GP gets mentioned more for help defense. I watched him play for his entire career, he was just as good of a help defender as Pippen.

[mehyaM24]

i don't agree with that at all. pippen was a better player to me regardless of team. the impact stats that isolate from team kind of prove that. pippen's success was simply a byproduct of his elite play. the other stuff you're saying is conjecture and, again, i don't agree.

the fact you're siding with that poster is amusing though. :oldlol:


I also have to disagree that Pippen was that much better than GP on help defense. I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but GP was a wizard where help defense was concerned.

Pippen's help defense gains a lot more attention because Chicago went deeper into the playoffs more consistently, which again goes back to being a teammate of MJ.

If the roles are reversed, I can almost guarantee GP gets mentioned more for help defense. I watched him play for his entire career, he was just as good of a help defender as Pippen.

what i base that on is playoff RAPM. it only goes back to 97, but rapm isolates player impact and literally doesn't use numbers. it is pure play-by-play (a great measure for defense). this accounts for on-ball D too. anyway from 97-00 pippen had better playoff d-rapm than payton did. which also means pippen had greater defensive impact. i'm not going to assume that's the case for all years, but it is a pretty good inclination. and backs what i saw unfold at the time.

[tpols]

This is using samples only from the 90s, though. The fact is when Kemp left, Payton became the undisputed captain and go to player, especially when Vin Baker had his demise.

Payton's best years continued onward from 1999-2003, where he was a consistent offensive and defensive threat. Payton averaged 22/5/9/2 on 45% during those years. And this was also up to the age of 34.

In those five years, he was All-NBA and All-Defensive 4 out of the 5 years. And he was putting up these numbers in the height of the defensive era.

The person you're quoting is a troll. And likely the same Pippen Stan from the summer who spammed for months on end saying Pippen was top 22-23 all time. When somebody omits half a dudes prime and compares one guys rookie years to another's peak years you have to wonder if the fella is mentally challenged or thinks we are.

[Reggie43]

Payton being better than Pippen is a legit argument because GP was really that good in his prime, its not a travesty picking either player. I dont usually agree with 3ball but anybody who thinks Pippen is a tier above Payton purely as players is just blinded by the "winning spotlight" lol

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd take Payton. Pippen was overrated

[mehyaM24]

The person you're quoting is a troll. And likely the same Pippen Stan from the summer who spammed for months on end saying Pippen was top 22-23 all time. When somebody omits half a dudes prime and compares one guys rookie years to another's peak years you have to wonder if the fella is mentally challenged or thinks we are.

you're gaslighting and clearly have trouble reading. i expanded the data and already used the years you're whining about.

nothing changes in the playoffs - pippen was still better.

[Axe]

you're gaslighting and clearly have trouble reading. i expanded the data and already used the years you're whining about.

nothing changes in the playoffs - pippen was still better.
Poor tpots. It's the same guy who thought that terry rozier was still playing for the celtics earlier. :ohwell:

[mehyaM24]

Payton being better than Pippen is a legit argument because GP was really that good in his prime, its not a travesty picking either player. I dont usually agree with 3ball but anybody who thinks Pippen is a tier above Payton purely as players is just blinded by the "winning spotlight" lol

i don't think pippen was a TIER better. clearly more impactful but not by an ENTIRE tier or anything. the "winning spotlight" is one of the cringiest arguments i've read on here though. :oldlol: talk about a lifeline.

[3ball]

i don't think pippen was a TIER better. clearly more impactful but not by an ENTIRE tier or anything. the "winning spotlight" is one of the cringiest arguments i've read on here though. :oldlol: talk about a lifeline.


How is pippen clearly more impactful when Payton beats Pippen in everything in the regular season (against the same comp), and heads-up in the Finals.. otherwise, you're comparing Payton's journey through a parity Western Playoffs to Pippen's guaranteed/padded runs through the East alongside Mike

[Reggie43]

i don't think pippen was a TIER better. clearly more impactful but not by an ENTIRE tier or anything. the "winning spotlight" is one of the cringiest arguments i've read on here though. :oldlol: talk about a lifeline.

That winning spotlight thing would make sense with similar level players but dude was using it to compare Pippen to roleplayers lol.

Would take Pippen in this comparison because I like his playstyle better but the real advantage I would give Payton is that he is the mentally stronger player that wouldnt back down from anyone.

[3ball]

That winning spotlight thing would make sense with similar level players but dude was using it to compare Pippen to roleplayers lol.

Would take Pippen in this comparison because I like his playstyle better but the real advantage I would give Payton is that he is the mentally stronger player that wouldnt back down from anyone.


Bottom line - the Payton/Pippen comparison is close even in your mind, which makes Pippen vastly overrated - his play never clearly superceded Payton, let alone reached top 30 caliber lol

Of course, Payton was also great without Jordan (the style you prefer)

[mehyaM24]

That winning spotlight thing would make sense with similar level players but dude was using it to compare Pippen to roleplayers lol.

Would take Pippen in this comparison because I like his playstyle better but the real advantage I would give Payton is that he is the mentally stronger player that wouldnt back down from anyone.

how you perform takes precedent which is why its a lame argument. winning is simply the result of elite play. i'm actually a payton fan too, and do agree about his tougher makeup.


How is pippen clearly more impactful when Payton beats Pippen in everything in the regular season (against the same comp), and heads-up in the Finals.. otherwise, you're comparing Payton's journey through a parity Western Playoffs to Pippen's guaranteed/padded runs through the East alongside Mike

the numbers were already posted. pippen has better impact stats in the regular-season & playoffs. that includes the 90s and payton's later years in the 2000s.

the all-time stuff is pretty subjective, but in their absolute primes? pippen's argument over payton is a strong one.

[Hey Yo]

Payton could guard 1's and 2's cause they were normally midgets back then.


Pippen could guard 1-4, sometimes 5's..............no problem.

[HoopsNY]

i don't agree with that at all. pippen was a better player to me regardless of team. the impact stats that isolate from team kind of prove that. pippen's success was simply a byproduct of his elite play. the other stuff you're saying is conjecture and, again, i don't agree.

Payton's peak comes when his team only made the playoffs 2 out of the 5 seasons. You don't think that matters when Pippen's comes in the midst of championship seasons? Even in 1994 the Bulls had 3 All-Stars. The '96 Bulls had 3 MVP vote getters.

And during his decline he played on Houston and Portland. How you think that doesn't matter is beyond me. Payton had a lot more to carry during his career and was pound for pound up there, at the very least, with Pippen.


the fact you're siding with that poster is amusing though. :oldlol:

Why? I'm not agreeing with his overall premise. I'm saying that Payton and Pippen are equal if one isn't better than the other. And even if you put Pippen > Payton, which I understand, then the disparity shouldn't be so great. Why is this outlandish?


what i base that on is playoff RAPM. it only goes back to 97, but rapm isolates player impact and literally doesn't use numbers. it is pure play-by-play (a great measure for defense). this accounts for on-ball D too. anyway from 97-00 pippen had better playoff d-rapm than payton did. which also means pippen had greater defensive impact. i'm not going to assume that's the case for all years, but it is a pretty good inclination. and backs what i saw unfold at the time.

I don't rely on RAPM. I can't imagine that being more indicative than the eye test. I mean, look at RAPM and dRAPM. Let's take a look at individual rankings from 1997 and 1998:

1997 Playoffs RAPM

Harper
MJ
Pippen
Ostertag
Scott
Hawkins
Ward
Hornecek

Matter of fact...let's stop right there. Harper wasn't the best player per possession that year in the playoffs, not even close. and Greg Ostertag? Let's jump to dRAPM:

1997 Playoffs dRAPM

Harper
Jordan
Mourning
Ostertag
Scott
Kersey
Ward
Cummings

Let's stop there. Don't you see a problem here? When we jump to 1999, Allan Houston, Kurt Thomas, and Chris childs are in the top 4 for dRAPM, Shandon Anderson is 6th! That's laughable.

I'm a Knicks fan. Houston was a mediocre defensive player and so was Chris Childs.

Furthermore, who do these numbers come against? Payton has the following guys that he guarded in the playoffs:

Van Exel
Abdul-Rauf
Jordan
KJ
Stockton
Marbury
Parker
Kidd

Look at that list. In almost every playoff series, GP was up against great players at his position, and for the most part, he did a great job.

Pippen has a lot of series where he guarded great players, but he often got torched (LJ, Penny, Barkley, Dumas, Kobe, Rice). I watched all of these series and Pippen wasn't putting on the best performances defensively.

Not to mention, GP's peak years come the most elite defensive era (1999-03), where he was putting up 23/5/9/2 on 46%.

Anyway, as I said before and I'll say it again, even if you rank Pippen above Payton, then they should be in the same tier, with no more than a few spots that separate them.

[mehyaM24]

Payton's peak comes when his team only made the playoffs 2 out of the 5 seasons. You don't think that matters when Pippen's comes in the midst of championship seasons? Even in 1994 the Bulls had 3 All-Stars. The '96 Bulls had 3 MVP vote getters.

And during his decline he played on Houston and Portland. How you think that doesn't matter is beyond me. Payton had a lot more to carry during his career and was pound for pound up there, at the very least, with Pippen.

when do you think payton's peak was? everything in my "loose" tabulation were years both played in their prime. statistical comparisons are made all the time no matter whose on a championship team. if you are all-star caliber and can produce, i think its more than fair. don't get why you have a problem with common practice.


I don't rely on RAPM. I can't imagine that being more indicative than the eye test. I mean, look at RAPM and dRAPM. Let's take a look at individual rankings from 1997 and 1998:

Matter of fact...let's stop right there. Harper wasn't the best player per possession that year in the playoffs, not even close. and Greg Ostertag? Let's jump to dRAPM:

1997 Playoffs dRAPM

Harper
Jordan
Mourning
Ostertag
Scott
Kersey
Ward
Cummings

Let's stop there. Don't you see a problem here? When we jump to 1999, Allan Houston, Kurt Thomas, and Chris childs are in the top 4 for dRAPM, Shandon Anderson is 6th! That's laughable.

I'm a Knicks fan. Houston was a mediocre defensive player and so was Chris Childs.

Furthermore, who do these numbers come against? Payton has the following guys that he guarded in the playoffs:

Van Exel
Abdul-Rauf
Jordan
KJ
Stockton
Marbury
Parker
Kidd

Look at that list.

well like most stats RAPM should be used with context. there are tabs you can click that include possessions. this is important because stars double and sometimes triple that of role players. your harper example is misleading because all its saying is he had high impact within the minutes he produced. you will find odd results with other advanced stats too like bpm, vorp, winshares, ortg and even the raw stuff like fg%, blocks, rebounds etc.

rapm works best when you compare roles and possession or simply players that are stars. since its regression its also best used over a 3-4 year sample which is why i expanded the comparison from 97-00. not just cherry-picking one playoff run, without any context and then making a claim.


In almost every playoff series, GP was up against great players at his position, and for the most part, he did a great job.

Pippen has a lot of series where he guarded great players, but he often got torched (LJ, Penny, Barkley, Dumas, Kobe, Rice). I watched all of these series and Pippen wasn't putting on the best performances defensively.

Not to mention, GP's peak years come the most elite defensive era (1999-03), where he was putting up 23/5/9/2 on 46%.

Anyway, as I said before and I'll say it again, even if you rank Pippen above Payton, then they should be in the same tier, with no more than a few spots that separate them.

no way payton was "peaking" during the 2000s. still in his prime maybe, but peak? gary had his best overall years (impact) during the 90s and the only thing he did better in the 2000s was score. he scored more because he had to though. not because he was better. regardless of that, i was fair and included numbers from both the 90s and 2000s. pippen still came out on top - and yes, i agree they aren't tiers apart.

keep seeing the "spotlight" argument with pippen compared to jr smith and detlef schrempf. :oldlol: doesn't say much about jordan who evidently won in a weak era.

[3ball]

The winning spotlight and reputation is a real thing - Kobe got a bunch of all-defense when he was infact a bad defender... Ditto Pippen with his all-nba and all-defense

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

.
PLAYOFFS


11' Dirk'........ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry....... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................. 4.9.............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........... 10.2

93' Jordan... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER...'.. 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................. 13.2............ 9.6............ 2.1............ 0.187......... 15.0

92' Jordan... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........... 15.0

91' Jordan... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen... 22.0 PER...'.. 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................. 10.0............ 8.1............ 1.4............ 0.136........... 9.5

96' Jordan... 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen... 19.4 PER.'... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................. 7.3............ 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................. 9.1............ 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090.......... 11.9

98' Jordan... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP................. 8.7............ 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


CONCLUSION - Jordan had 6 rings that were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk

[3ball]

.

keep seeing the "spotlight" argument with pippen compared to jr smith and detlef schrempf. :oldlol: doesn't say much about Jordan-carry-jobs could only be possible due to a weak era.






Was the league weak when Dirk carried the Mavs to the 2011 title? Was the era weak?

The gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post above), so Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. And pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Furthermore, league expansion diluted the top-heavy, super-team 80's, so the talent was spread around evenly in the 90's (parity) - so only 2 stars were required to make the Finals and obviously, the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star vs 2-star format..

[mehyaM24]

pippen finished top 10 in most major stat categories, notably advanced impact stats. was also top 10 in mvp voting every year and had two seasons in particular finishing top 5 (top 3 one year). if pippen was a "jr smith" equivalent then jordan competed in a weakass era. no other way around it.

[3ball]

pippen finished top 10 in most major stat categories, notably advanced impact stats. was also top 10 in mvp voting every year and had two seasons in particular finishing top 5 (top 3 one year). if pippen was a "jr smith" equivalent then jordan competed in a weakass era. no other way around it.


Pippen wasn't top 10 in anything except a steals-counter stat that the creators say isn't useful - that's your whole argument so you lose

Pippen's performance and stats were a low bar reached by the likes of JR Smith and you can't show me a single instance where he played materially better than JR Smith in the 15' ECF - that was Pippen's caliber

If he's top 30, then he should have towering top 30 performances.... but he has nothing anywhere near top 30..

[mehyaM24]

Pippen wasn't top 10 in anything except a steals-counter stat that the creators say isn't useful - that's your whole argument so you lose

Pippen's performance and stats were a low bar reached by the likes of JR Smith and you can't show me a single instance where he played materially better than JR Smith in the 15' ECF - that was Pippen's caliber

If he's top 30, then he should have towering top 30 performances.... but he has nothing anywhere near top 30..

pippen had multiple seasons top 10 in bpm, vorp and per - the SAME metrics you posted above. so if he was a role player aka "jr smith" then the entire 90s must have been garbage. we know that to be true because jr smith is a bench player in today's game.

might want to rethink your position, pal.

[ShawkFactory]

The winning spotlight and reputation is a real thing - Kobe got a bunch of all-defense when he was infact a bad defender... Ditto Pippen with his all-nba and all-defense

We're now saying Pippen wasn't even a good defender?

[3ball]

pippen had multiple seasons top 10 in bpm, vorp and per - the SAME metrics you posted above. so if he was a role player aka "jr smith" then the entire 90s must have been garbage. we know that to be true because jr smith is a bench player in today's game.

might want to rethink your position, pal.





Pippen ranks about 130th all-time in PER, WS/48, OBPM, and peak VORP, while having BPM that's on Kyrie/Love's level.

So using the stats you cite, Pippen ranks about 130th all-time

(VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so individual seasons must be used to compare, aka peak VORP)






If Pippen was a role player aka "jr smith" then the entire 90s must have been garbage for mj to have carry-jobs like that





Guys can win chips with garbage sidekicks because Dirk did so in 2011... Was the league weak when Dirk carried the Mavs to the 2011 title? Was the era weak?

That's Jordan's claim to fame - carry-jobs - and the gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post above)... So Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. btw, pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Don't be too surprised by the goat's dominance because league expansion diluted the top-heavy, super-team 80's... so the talent was spread around evenly in the 90's (parity), aka only 2 stars were required to make the Finals... obviously, the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star vs star format..






might want to rethink your position, pal.






2015 ECF

JR Smith............18/8 on 67% true shooting


1995 Finals

Robert Horry..... 18/10 on 55%


^^^ Pippen never exceeded that caliber - that's his caliber and it's between 100-200 all-time, as the career production rate rankings show (PER, WS/48, OBPM, peak VORP)..

[mehyaM24]

Pippen ranks about 130th all-time in PER, WS/48, OBPM, and peak VORP, while having BPM that's on Kyrie/Love's level.

So using the stats you cite, Pippen ranks about 130th all-time

(VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so individual seasons must be used to compare, aka peak VORP)






Guys can win chips with garbage sidekicks because Dirk did so in 2011... Was the league weak when Dirk carried the Mavs to the 2011 title? Was the era weak?

That's Jordan's claim to fame - carry-jobs - and the gap between Jordan and Pippen's stats for all 6 rings was far greater than the gap between Dirk and his sidekick in 2011 Playoffs (stats in previous post above)... So Jordan had 6 carry-jobs that were greater than Dirk's 2011 ring.. btw, pippen's peak stats were LOW, so the gap was due to his weak production.

Don't be too surprised by the goat's dominance because league expansion diluted the top-heavy, super-team 80's... so the talent was spread around evenly in the 90's (parity), aka only 2 stars were required to make the Finals... obviously, the goat + anyone will dominate a 2-star vs star format..







2015 ECF

JR Smith............18/8 on 67% true shooting


1995 Finals

Robert Horry..... 18/10 on 55%


^^^ Pippen never exceeded that caliber - that's his caliber and it's between 100-200 all-time, as the career production rate rankings show (PER, WS/48, OBPM, peak VORP)..

91-98 pippen
21/7/6 on 48% from the field & 6 bpm / 45.9 vorp (6 titles, 7x first team all-defense, 3x first team all-nba)

90s pippen in the regular-season
5.2 bpm
51.2 vorp
20.4 per

90s pippen in the playoffs
6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp
19.4 per

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

in the 90s, most of these are top 10 finishes. nobody cares or is talking about where where he ranks all time - that stuff accumulated with years of out of prime play. in pippen's prime though he was routinely a top 10 player with the numbers to back that up (defense included). once again, saying he is "jr smith" is an indictment on jordan's and his rings.

[8Ball]

LeBron had more All-NBA than Jordan and was better scorer/passer/defender/produce.

So there's no argument for Jordan over LeBron and the winning spotlight simply inflates Jordan in the all-time rankings

this PROVES that Jordan is overrated by the winning spotlight

Carry on

[3ball]

91-98 pippen
21/7/6 on 48% from the field & 6 bpm / 45.9 vorp (6 titles, 7x first team all-defense, 3x first team all-nba)

90s pippen in the regular-season
5.2 bpm
51.2 vorp
20.4 per

90s pippen in the playoffs
6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp
19.4 per


in the 90s, most of these are top 10 finishes





^^^ Lies....

Pippen's PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency, and OBPM was borderline top 20 in the 90's and less than Kemp's.



1990-1999 (nineties)

Kemp...... 20.6 PER... 0.169 WS/48
Pippen.... 20.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48


So most of Pippen's stats were low and not anywhere near top 10 in the 90's... you countered with only 2 stats that mean little... aka bpm (the steals-counter/stockton stat), and vorp (the games-counter, low peak vorp for pip).

And his peak sucked - elite guys peak at around 30 ppg and top 5 or top 3 in every category - even 12' Wade was top 5 in everything (BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48).

[NBAGOAT]

backpicks did consider gary payton for top 40. his short explanation for leaving him off was he's overvalued on defense so at least for him, he highly disagree about payton being a better defender than pippen.

It is a bit like jrue holiday now. he's universally lauded as one of the best man defenders and it shows up in eye test too but how valuable is he on defense really as guard? Still doesnt really deserve any dpoy consideration.

[3ball]

backpicks did consider gary payton for top 40. his short explanation for leaving him off was he's overvalued on defense so at least for him, he highly disagree about payton being a better defender than pippen.

It is a bit like jrue holiday now. he's universally lauded as one of the best man defenders and it shows up in eye test too but how valuable is he on defense really as guard? Still doesnt really deserve any dpoy consideration.


Pippen was given all-defense just like Kobe - undeserved but the media just went with the flow.

Everyone got theirs on Pippen.. he never shut anyone down and had a lot of problems with good ball-handlers

At least Payton can say "me and the refs held Jordan down for a couple games".. Pippen can't say shit - there's no examples of him holding anyone down

[mehyaM24]

backpicks did consider gary payton for top 40. his short explanation for leaving him off was he's overvalued on defense so at least for him, he highly disagree about payton being a better defender than pippen.

that's how i feel too. but then again i actually watched both of them play, so that's where the disconnect might be with some. pippen's athleticism and length are attributes you can't teach, but were what made him an amazing help defender - which is always higher impact.


^^^ Lies....

most of the numbers i posted were where pippen ranked top 10. nothing about that is false or a "lie". pippen's vorp and bpm were elite EVERY season during his prime. every single one.

these are the facts, pal.

[3ball]

that's how i feel too. but then again i actually watched both of them play, so that's where the disconnect might be with some. pippen's athleticism and athleticism are attributes you can't teach, but were what made him an amazing help defender - which is always higher impact.


Bruh you posted 20/7/6 as if it was 30/7/6

20/7/6 with #18 PER and #8 VORP was Pippen's peak - that's a low peak and a low bar that even bums like JR Smith could reach

So I'm not saying Pippen = JR Smith, but if JR, Horry,, Hughes and countless others can reach Pippen's best caliber, then it couldn't be that good and nowhere near top 30 all-time

[mehyaM24]

pippen made all-teams, all-stars and had impact numbers at SUPERSTAR rate.

the larry hughes, robert horry, jr smith comparisons are just fantasy talk. aka not real. time to wake up and smell the coffee dude. pippen was regarded top 10 every year and comparable with the likes of ewing, miller, and drexler.

[3ball]

pippen made all-teams, all-stars and had impact numbers at SUPERSTAR rate.

the larry hughes, robert horry, jr smith comparisons are just fantasy talk. aka not real. time to wake up and smell the coffee dude. pippen was regarded top 10 every year and comparable with the likes of ewing, miller, and drexler.


Pippen's accolades are a function of the winning spotlight, so stop mentioning them unless you can back them up with more than a steals-counter stat.

Pippen simply never played at a great level - his 19 PER caliber was a low bar that ordinary players reached.. he was a glorified role player whose weak stats and performance recieved accolades from a shallow media blinded by the winning spotlight

Carry on

[mehyaM24]

bpm and vorp are superior measures that isolate impact. so, its no surprise pippen rated with the likes of drexler, miller, stockton, payton and ewing. AKA top 10

the facts don't care about your feelings pal. maybe try another argument?

[8Ball]

LeBron had more All-NBA than Jordan and was better scorer/passer/defender/produce.

So there's no argument for Jordan over LeBron and the winning spotlight simply inflates Jordan in the all-time rankings

this PROVES that Jordan is overrated by the winning spotlight

Carry on

Anyone else?

Or else I will consider this settled law and use it from now on.

[mehyaM24]

Anyone else?

Or else I will consider this settled law and use it from now on.

what makes lebron a "better" scorer in your estimation?

[3ball]

bpm and vorp are superior measures that isolate impact. so, its no surprise pippen rated with the likes of drexler, miller, stockton, payton and ewing. AKA top 10

the facts don't care about your feelings pal. maybe try another argument?


If Pippen ranked with drexler, stockton, and payton at bpm and vorp, but far below all of them in PER, WS/48, OBPM, scoring, efficiency, and assists, then Pippen sucks conpared to them

So you continue to lose the argument badly. Lol

[mehyaM24]

If Pippen ranked with drexler, stockton, and payton at bpm and vorp, but far below all of them in PER, WS/48, OBPM, scoring, efficiency, and assists, then Pippen sucks conpared to them

So you continue to lose the argument badly. Lol

other than OBPM, none of that stuff measures or isolates impact. weak rebbutal on your part. obpm is great but leaves out other things you do in a box-score that impact games. you might like half-assed data, but most of us don't. bottom line VORP and BPM show pippen as a top ten 90's player. the all-stars and all-league selections are just icing on the cake.

you're welcome for the education.

[3ball]

other than OBPM, none of that stuff measures or isolates impact. weak rebbutal on your part. obpm is great but leaves out other things you do in a box-score that impact games. you might like half-assed data, but most of us don't. bottom line VORP and BPM show pippen as a top ten 90's player. the all-stars and all-league selections are just icing on the cake.

you're welcome for the education.


vorp is based on games played and Pippen has low peak vorp - nowhere near top 10 in any decade

and BPM consists of OBPM and DBPM... DBPM is a steals-counter and uses team defense, while OBPM includes all offensive categories

Regardless, Pippen loses to Stockton in BPM and VORP, while losing to everyone in all the other stats.. so Pippen sucked.. less than Stockton in BPM/VORP, and less than everyone in everything else... :confusedshrug:

[mehyaM24]

vorp is based on games played and Pippen has low peak vorp - nowhere near top 10 in any decade

pippen routinely had top 10 finishes in VORP. and overall, was a top 10 nineties player on this metric alone. no need to fib buddy :oldlol:

[3ball]

pippen routinely had top 10 finishes in VORP. and overall, was a top 10 nineties player on this metric alone. no need to fib buddy :oldlol:


If a player is top 10 in VORP or steals-counter BPM, but borderline top 25 in everything else, then he's closer to 25 then 10

[mehyaM24]

If a player is top 10 in VORP or steals-counter BPM, but borderline top 25 in everything else, then he's closer to 25 then 10

vorp and bpm account for more than just steals. they do everything PER does, but ALSO isolate individual impact. in layman's terms: they're superior in every way.

they also paint pippen as a top 10 nineties player.

[3ball]

vorp and bpm account for more than just steals. they do everything PER does, but ALSO isolate individual impact. in layman's terms: they're superior in every way.

they also paint pippen as a top 10 nineties player.


Well we both like the OBPM component of BPM, so let's evaluate the DBPM component.........

Oh look - Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen, Dumars, and Payton because those stats simply count steals and defensive rebounds, while using team defense as a proxy just like the creators said.

So again, BPM is a garbage stat because it includes DBPM, which doesn't actually measure anything (it merely approximates defensive ability by using team performance as a proxy and then counting up individual steals and defensive rebounds.. aka garbage)

So BPM is shit, and only the stats that actually measure something are good (PER, WS/48, OBPM)

VORP is based on games played and is biased towards higher usage players like Pippen, over efficient juggernauts like Kemp

[mehyaM24]

Well we both like the OBPM component of BPM, so let's evaluate the DBPM component.........

Oh look - Bird has better DBPM and DRTG than Pippen, Dumars, and Payton because those stats simply count steals and defensive rebounds, while using team defense as a proxy just like the creators said.

So again, BPM is a garbage stat because it includes DBPM, which doesn't actually measure anything (it merely approximates defensive ability by using team performance as a proxy and then counting up individual steals and defensive rebounds.. aka garbage)

So BPM is shit, and only the stats that actually measure something are good (PER, WS/48, OBPM)

VORP is based on games played and is biased towards higher usage players like Pippen, over efficient juggernauts like Kemp

we don't ignore CHUNKS of data because you have a weird fetish for scoring. sorry dude. bpm adjusts for: points, shooting, rebounding, steals and blocks per 100 possessions. just like PER and winshares do.

anomalies are prevalent in all stats btw. you can literally find them in PER and winshares right now. take winshares for example: bird is 24th all time beside gary payton who is 25th. but behind parish, chris paul and reggie miller. :oldlol: pretty dumb right? well unlike per and winshares BPM isolates the numbers by using regression. vorp is similar but cumulative. still, these two impact stats are better in every measurable and objective way. and more importantly, prove that pippen was a top 10 player in the 90s.

[3ball]

we don't ignore CHUNKS of data because you have a weird fetish for scoring. sorry dude. bpm adjusts for: points, shooting, rebounding, steals and blocks per 100 possessions. just like PER and winshares do.

anomalies are prevalent in all stats btw. you can literally find them in PER and winshares right now. take winshares for example: bird is 24th all time beside gary payton who is 25th. but behind parish, chris paul and reggie miller. :oldlol: pretty dumb right? well unlike per and winshares BPM isolates the numbers by using regression. vorp is similar but cumulative. still, these two impact stats are better in every measurable and objective way. and more importantly, prove that pippen was a top 10 player in the 90s.


Pippen being inferior to Stockton, Wade, and AD in VORP and BPM doesn't offset him sucking at at PER, WS/48, OBPM, scoring, efficiency, assists

Pippen was just a low-producer

[AirBonner]

Live look at OP’s topic:
https://vamosa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Content-Migration-and-Ever-Moving-Goalposts2.jpeg

[mehyaM24]

Pippen being inferior to Stockton, Wade, and AD in VORP and BPM doesn't offset him sucking at at PER, WS/48, OBPM, scoring, efficiency, assists

Pippen was just a low-producer

no, being top ten in 90s vorp and bpm do.

makes sense that better data accurately measures a player like pippen. who had comparable impact to guys like ewing and drexler.

[HoopsNY]

when do you think payton's peak was? everything in my "loose" tabulation were years both played in their prime. statistical comparisons are made all the time no matter whose on a championship team. if you are all-star caliber and can produce, i think its more than fair. don't get why you have a problem with common practice.

Payton's peak was somewhere around '98-'03. He was a 22/5/9/2 player then. But even if you say his peak was '94-'97, I can reason with that.

I just believe GP was a more solid, fundamental, and all-around player from 1998-03. He carried that team after 1998 and really had terrible support. Scottie had the luxury of not only playing alongside MJ, but other HOF'ers and HOF coaches. The '99 Rockets were stacked and so were the 2000 Blazers.


well like most stats RAPM should be used with context. there are tabs you can click that include possessions. this is important because stars double and sometimes triple that of role players. your harper example is misleading because all its saying is he had high impact within the minutes he produced. you will find odd results with other advanced stats too like bpm, vorp, winshares, ortg and even the raw stuff like fg%, blocks, rebounds etc.

Harper's 1997 playoffs possessions, for example, is comparable to Payton's, but his RAPM is twice as high. When you compare dRAPM, it's even worse. RAPM just isn't a reliable statistic to me in any way.

In 2000, David Robinson and Clarence Weatherspoon have similar possessions, and similar dRAPMs. That says it all.


rapm works best when you compare roles and possession or simply players that are stars. since its regression its also best used over a 3-4 year sample which is why i expanded the comparison from 97-00. not just cherry-picking one playoff run, without any context and then making a claim.

I haven't gotten into it that deep, but I wouldn't be surprised if the stretch of seasons shows some players who clearly weren't better defenders than others having higher RAPMs.


no way payton was "peaking" during the 2000s. still in his prime maybe, but peak? gary had his best overall years (impact) during the 90s and the only thing he did better in the 2000s was score. he scored more because he had to though. not because he was better. regardless of that, i was fair and included numbers from both the 90s and 2000s. pippen still came out on top - and yes, i agree they aren't tiers apart.

It certainly appears that way, but he played on much better teams and under a much better coach like George Karl during the early to mid-90s. It's just not fair to remove a coach like Karl, guys like Kemp, Schrempf, Baker (due to alcohol), etc and then champion the mid 90s alone as if that was his unquestionable peak.

I watched GP for his entire career. He was as good, if not better, between '99-'03 as he was in years prior. He was a smarter player and his statistics were about the same, though both his assists and scoring go up. Between 1994-98, GP averaged 19.5 PPG. Between 1999-03, he averaged 22.4 PPG. His assists from 1994-98 was 7.2. His assists between 1999-03 is 8.6.

Also, are you factoring the height of the defensive era? 1998-03 was easily the greatest defensive years the NBA had seen in its history, even onto now.

1995-97 the league saw a shortened three point line and a higher pace of play and scoring. Plus, the 1999 season was the lockout where everyone's numbers dropped significantly. This context matters in the grand scheme of things.

This doesn't mean Payton necessarily benefited as much as others during the short three point line, but it did help for kick out threes/spot up shooting to teammates.

[HoopsNY]

Payton's peak was somewhere around '98-'03. He was a 22/5/9/2 player then. But even if you say his peak was '94-'97, I can reason with that.

I just believe GP was a more solid, fundamental, and all-around player from 1998-03. He carried that team after 1998 and really had terrible support. Scottie had the luxury of not only playing alongside MJ, but other HOF'ers and HOF coaches. The '99 Rockets were stacked and so were the 2000 Blazers.



Harper's 1997 playoffs possessions, for example, is comparable to Payton's, but his RAPM is twice as high. When you compare dRAPM, it's even worse. RAPM just isn't a reliable statistic to me in any way.

In 2000, David Robinson and Clarence Weatherspoon have similar possessions, and similar dRAPMs. That says it all.



I haven't gotten into it that deep, but I wouldn't be surprised if the stretch of seasons shows some players who clearly weren't better defenders than others having higher RAPMs.



It certainly appears that way, but he played on much better teams and under a much better coach like George Karl during the early to mid-90s. It's just not fair to remove a coach like Karl, guys like Kemp, Schrempf, Baker (due to alcohol), etc and then champion the mid 90s alone as if that was his unquestionable peak.

I watched GP for his entire career. He was as good, if not better, between '99-'03 as he was in years prior. He was a smarter player and his statistics were about the same, though both his assists and scoring go up. Between 1994-98, GP averaged 19.5 PPG. Between 1999-03, he averaged 22.4 PPG. His assists from 1994-98 was 7.2. His assists between 1999-03 is 8.6.

Also, are you factoring the height of the defensive era? 1998-03 was easily the greatest defensive years the NBA had seen in its history, even onto now.

1995-97 the league saw a shortened three point line and a higher pace of play and scoring. Plus, the 1999 season was the lockout where everyone's numbers dropped significantly. This context matters in the grand scheme of things.

This doesn't mean Payton necessarily benefited as much as others during the short three point line, but it did help for kick out threes/spot up shooting to teammates.

mehya?

[mehyaM24]

better late than never, hoopsny lol

you know my position already. payton's peak was in the late 90s while you think his best years were in the 00s. he had his best IMPACT stats in the 90s, and at the time league-wide ortg wasn't far off from the early 00s (which you say were better defensively). we'll have to agree to disagree.

we really don't disagree on much except for how RAPM works. if you readup on it somemore, you'll note that just a single season worth of rapm is noisy. and just one postseason run is even worse. for better results, you got to expand the sample size (its regression and excludes numbers from a box score), which is exactly what i did.

[HoopsNY]

better late than never, hoopsny lol

you know my position already. payton's peak was in the late 90s while you think his best years were in the 00s. he had his best IMPACT stats in the 90s, and at the time league-wide ortg wasn't far off from the early 00s (which you say were better defensively). we'll have to agree to disagree.

we really don't disagree on much except for how RAPM works. if you readup on it somemore, you'll note that just a single season worth of rapm is noisy. and just one postseason run is even worse. for better results, you got to expand the sample size (its regression and excludes numbers from a box score), which is exactly what i did.

lmao it's all good bro; tbh you're a good poster so I enjoy discussing topics with you.

I think we mostly agree here. As I mentioned before, even if someone prefers Pippen over Payton, then the difference is minimal.

Will read up more on RAPM, but from a cursory study, I haven't found it reliable. Nevertheless, will take some more time on it.

[mehyaM24]

lmao it's all good bro; tbh you're a good poster so I enjoy discussing topics with you.

right back at you :cheers:

[NBAGOAT]

lmao it's all good bro; tbh you're a good poster so I enjoy discussing topics with you.

I think we mostly agree here. As I mentioned before, even if someone prefers Pippen over Payton, then the difference is minimal.

Will read up more on RAPM, but from a cursory study, I haven't found it reliable. Nevertheless, will take some more time on it.

this is all you need on rapm but warning is it's math/stats heavy https://squared2020.com/2017/09/18/deep-dive-on-regularized-adjusted-plus-minus-i-introductory-example/

[light]

So there's no argument for Pippen over Payton and the winning spotlight simply inflates Pippen in the all-time rankings

this PROVES that pippen is overrated by the winning spotlight

Payton even destroyed Pippen heads-up in the 96' Finals.

Carry on

You don't know enough about the players you're trying to compare. You are clearly ignorant of the issues with Gary Payton that have prevented him from being ranked as highly as Scottie Pippen.

George Karl on Gary Payton’s weaknesses from his book “Furious George”:

-Gets agitated too easily
-Too predictable
-Thinks he’s a three point shooter when he’s not
-Poor practice habits
-Poor off court habits
-Poor body language
-Poor attitude

Glove’s defense was always there but his attitude, his leadership and his decision making wasn’t.

Gary Payton was always late for practice. That's the kind of guy he was.

Pippen was a much better leader - by an enormous degree! - and a better decision maker and obviously more versatile.

Pippen also had more 1st team All-NBA selections, for what that's worth.

George Karl on his desire to trade for Scottie Pippen in 1994 (Kemp, Pierce & Seattle’s #1 pick for Pippen):


“Pippen was the best small forward, or 3, in the league. Nothing he wasn’t good at. During one of Michael’s retirements, Scottie led his team in all five of the main categories - rebounds, scoring, blocks, steals and assists - so rare that it had only happened once before in NBA history.

When I tried to imagine the Sonics without Shawn I knew I’d miss him, but I got pretty excited picturing Gary and Scottie teaming up on a trap; they’d smother opposing guards. But every trade prompts a debate. I was in favor of this one but I wasn’t sure.

So I called Michael. We talked about minor-league baseball, North Caroline basketball, and golf. Then we talked about the big deal on the table. Should we do this?

“Do it,” he said. “Scottie can make your other players better. Kemp can’t.”

[Reggie43]

Kemp not making other players better is such a bullshit quote, he basically refuses to shoot in volume just to make the offense work and give equal opportunities for his teammates to contribute and be succesfull.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Giving other players opportunities isn't the same as making them better.

[Reggie43]

Giving other players opportunities isn't the same as making them better.

how do you make them better then? Spoonfed baskets off being a ball dominant playmaker and making them play finishers and nothing else?

[3ball]

Giving other players opportunities isn't the same as making them better.


Players get better when they improve their skills, aka handles, shooting, etc...

If a player's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, they won't allow other ball-handlers to improve their handle, scoring or passing because they'll be turned into spot-up shooter

[HoopsNY]

this is all you need on rapm but warning is it's math/stats heavy https://squared2020.com/2017/09/18/deep-dive-on-regularized-adjusted-plus-minus-i-introductory-example/

Appreciate it brody

[Kiddlovesnets]

The 1996 SuperSonics were a better team than the 2018 Warriors, they didn’t win just because they had to face the Bulls, by far the best team ever in league history. If they were to play Lebron’s Heat or Cavs, we’d hear lebronstans and media talking about how great the supersonics was and even MJ wouldn’t be able to defeat such a superteam.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Players get better when they improve their skills, aka handles, shooting, etc...

If a player's skillset is restricted to ball-dominance, they won't allow other ball-handlers to improve their handle, scoring or passing because they'll be turned into spot-up shooter


how do you make them better then? Spoonfed baskets off being a ball dominant playmaker and making them play finishers and nothing else?

Do you guys understand that the conversation is about Pippen and Kemp not Jordan and LeBron. Jordan is the one saying Pippen makes people better and Kemp doesn't. Then Reggie says Jordan is full of BS for claiming that, but doesn't bother to explain why Jordan is wrong.

If someone wants to expand on how Kemp makes others better, I'm all ears, but I'll have to side with Jordan on this one until then. Pippen was more effective than Kemp at putting teammates in easier scoring positions. Kemp was a better finisher no doubt, but didn't put the kind of pressure on a defense that opened things up for others.

[Reggie43]

Are you blind lol. Basically explained it on the post you replied to.

[bizil]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! G Hill upped the ante with the blueprint. While Bron took it too the ultimate level. When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.

[Axe]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.
3ball is never going to comprehend any of this.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Are you blind lol. Basically explained it on the post you replied to.

Nah, that's empty pablum. There's more to making others better than not having the ball and letting them play. Maybe your definition of making others better is not being good enough to make things easier for your teammates, but that's not something anyone looking to build a team wants in a player. By that standard, the worse you are as a player, the better you are at making others better, because you make their job harder by being awful thereby helping them become better players because they have to refine their skills to cover for the holes in the crappy player's game. Joel Anthony was the GOAT makes others better guy because he never wanted the ball and suclwd when he had it so it was always 4 on 5 offense for his team when he was out there.

[Reggie43]

Such bad logic compounded by made up assumptions. Just watch Kemp play so you would see for yourself what Im talking about.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

[97 bulls]

You don't know enough about the players you're trying to compare. You are clearly ignorant of the issues with Gary Payton that have prevented him from being ranked as highly as Scottie Pippen.

George Karl on Gary Payton’s weaknesses from his book “Furious George”:

-Gets agitated too easily
-Too predictable
-Thinks he’s a three point shooter when he’s not
-Poor practice habits
-Poor off court habits
-Poor body language
-Poor attitude

Glove’s defense was always there but his attitude, his leadership and his decision making wasn’t.

Gary Payton was always late for practice. That's the kind of guy he was.

Pippen was a much better leader - by an enormous degree! - and a better decision maker and obviously more versatile.

Pippen also had more 1st team All-NBA selections, for what that's worth.

George Karl on his desire to trade for Scottie Pippen in 1994 (Kemp, Pierce & Seattle’s #1 pick for Pippen):


“Pippen was the best small forward, or 3, in the league. Nothing he wasn’t good at. During one of Michael’s retirements, Scottie led his team in all five of the main categories - rebounds, scoring, blocks, steals and assists - so rare that it had only happened once before in NBA history.

When I tried to imagine the Sonics without Shawn I knew I’d miss him, but I got pretty excited picturing Gary and Scottie teaming up on a trap; they’d smother opposing guards. But every trade prompts a debate. I was in favor of this one but I wasn’t sure.

So I called Michael. We talked about minor-league baseball, North Caroline basketball, and golf. Then we talked about the big deal on the table. Should we do this?

“Do it,” he said. “Scottie can make your other players better. Kemp can’t.”

Great post. Reading these posts shows that most of these guys dont know about basketball. They know about stats and agenda. What good are gaudy stats if you cant win? I'll never understand this logic. Which guy was gonna give you the best chance to win? I'd go with Pip. Even though Payton is close.

As far as stats go, let's understand this. PIPPEN PLAYED HURT!!!! That effects his overall statistics. He never had a legit break from 91 to 98. I think his stats wouldve been alot better if he had a few seasons where the Bulls didnt have so many deep championships and playoff runs as well as two Olympic runs

I think he just was trying to survive and get through the season with a Championship.

[mehyaM24]

Great post. Reading these posts shows that most of these guys dont know about basketball. They know about stats and agenda. What good are gaudy stats if you cant win? I'll never understand this logic. Which guy was gonna give you the best chance to win? I'd go with Pip. Even though Payton is close.

As far as stats go, let's understand this. PIPPEN PLAYED HURT!!!! That effects his overall statistics. He never had a legit break from 91 to 98. I think his stats wouldve been alot better if he had a few seasons where the Bulls didnt have so many deep championships and playoff runs as well as two Olympic runs

I think he just was trying to survive and get through the season with a Championship.

ya true. pippen's postseason numbers nosideived because of his knees/back. injuries are part of the game, sure, but if they had no consequence, he would have seen playoff runs similar to the regular-season. pippen was actually in great position to win FMVP in 98. malone, sloan and hornacek all spoke about pippen's help defense, and it being the biggest detriment to their play - then his bad back got in the way.

no tears here, but pippen deserves credit for playing hurt.

[mehyaM24]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

don't remember kemp making anyone better, either. great individual talent although not exactly known for his playmaking. jordan didn't sugarcoat it.

[Reggie43]

Freak athlete, impressive dunker and finisher. Not much of a shooter or passer. None of that equates to making others better.
What did I forget? You're making the case he makes others better, so how about explaining that in some way instead of just saying he did.

He might as well have been DeAndre Jordan by your description lol. Just like I said just watch him play. Not every kid that asks for it deserves a thorough explanation.

[Ainosterhaspie]

He might as well have been DeAndre Jordan by your description lol. Just like I said just watch him play. Not every kid that asks for it deserves a thorough explanation.
Ok. I'm wrong. MJ is wrong. Karl is wrong. Why? Because Reggie says so. Well then, I'm convinced. My bad.

[Reggie43]

Kids looking up quotes without context and treating it as gospel is the most priceless thing ever.

[Reggie43]

I love how Jordan would be called the worst talent evaluator ever in these parts yet when Jordan says Kemp does not make his teammates better we are supposed to believe him, no ifs and buts because Jordan said so:facepalm

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Payton was a better scorer/passer/defender with more all-nba, but he's ranked below Pippen because of rings, which fueled a comparable all-nba tally for Pippen (media awards)..

Ultimately, no one ever said a 2nd option like McHale was better than Ewing because of rings, or Klay > Beal because of rings - only Pippen gets that treatment, which shows that he's rated incorrectly..

Pippen's accolades were simply inflated by the winning spotlight, while his actual performance doesn't warrant top 30... 22/8/5 and 2nd Round loss is a top 300 peak, while his career production rate (PER, etc) puts him at about 150..

In the history of 3-pointer basketball, Pippen is one of the rare 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (true 2nd options), aka Rip Hamilton, Pippen, Klay, Jason Terry, Gasol, Horry... So only Jordan won a bunch of rings with true 2nd options and without super-teams

[dankok8]

GP was a more DOMINANT two way player than Pippen. Defensively, it doesn't get better at their respective positions. Passing wise, I would go with GP. Even though Pip is among the best passing SF's ever of course. Rebounding of course goes to Pip. And defensive versatility goes to Pip too. EVEN THOUGH GP could check the PG, SG, and many SF's.

At the time Pip was at his peak, he was a SF NEVER seen before in the league. At 6'8, he combined the freak athletic ability of Doc with the floor game of Hondo! G Hill upped the ante with the blueprint. While Bron took it too the ultimate level. When it comes to GP, we had seen similar PG's before him at that 6'4 size. Like a Walt Frazier or Dennis Johnson. So while I would take GP over Pip peak-prime wise, Pip was SUCH A UNIQUE PLAYER that he could ACTUALLY cover more holes. And GP's scoring edge wasn't a HUGE GAP. But I just think a PG would FEAR guarding GP more than an SF WOULD FEAR guarding Scottie. And when u factor scoring, defense, and passing as a package, GP is ARGUABLY the best PG of all time.

Good post.

GP gets super underrated these days. And like you said he vs. Pippen feels like kind of a wash. Depends on what your team needs.

For the record I think MJ wouldn't win as much with GP in place of Pippen. But the Sonics could get worse too with Pippen in place of GP as well. Payton fit that team like a glove that he is... lol

[ELITEpower23]

You made a thread last week about how Detlef Shrempf was better than Pippen.

Isn't it a little counter-intuitive to then make a Payton > Pippen one?

OP sure is delusional or so it seems

[72-10]

I disagree with most of it, but Payton is the better passer. It's hard to say who was carrying a team better, Pippen in '95, or Payton in '02.

[Shooter]

This is why you'll always lose.

https://i.postimg.cc/9FQyj0J0/scottie-again.png

[3ba11]

Game 3 of the 1993 ECF is why you'll always lose.





Did you watch that game?

The Knicks were giving away Game 3 - they were down 15 at the end of 1 quarter and the game was over - Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in the quarter, compared to Pippen's 6 points and zero assists.. The Knicks never threatened after that and it was a massive blowout that the Bulls would've won without MJ or Pippen.

So Pippen never saved the bulls in any game - he never hit a big shot in a big game... EVER...

he never took over down the stretch or dominated important stretches... EVER...

he was literally trash and MJ was the bailout guy on the team, or maybe Paxson, Kerr, or Kukoc might get the shot.. So Pippen was the LAST option to make a meaningful shot - he only got flow points and transition.. he was just an athlete/slasher/defender, like Colin Cowherd said.

[SaintzFury13]

Did you watch that game?

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but you sure as hell didn't.

Stop pretending you know anything about 90s basketball, or even 2000s basketball. You don't. Every argument you've attempted to make now to hype up Jordan and diss LeBron (which is literally the only reason you are doing this) has been based entirely off of stats and that's it. You don't describe what exactly the players did. You don't explain their roles to the team or how they truly contributed to their teams success. And half of the time, your own stats end up working against you because since you have no idea what actually happened during the time period you are describing, you don't even realize whether or not the stats you are displaying are actually good or bad.

I will say that shooter is wrong about one thing. Game 3 of the 1993 ECF isn't why you'll always lose. You'll always lose because you're an inbred retard who spends every waking day of his life researching every stat he can find to fulfill his fantasies. You think every new bit of information you dig up will help your case, and it all gets thrown back in your face by people who are actually familiar with the times and watched the games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kV5OdiaghE

Do us all a favor, and watch this video and stop wasting our time with your stupidity.

[ELITEpower23]

This is why you'll always lose.

https://i.postimg.cc/9FQyj0J0/scottie-again.png

3ball?

[3ba11]

3ball?


The Knicks were giving that game away - they were down 15 after 1 quarter and it was a blowout that never got closer after that - Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in that 1st quarter, while Pippen had 6 points and zero assists - so Jordan "westbrooked or lebron-balled" the bulls to victory in that first quarter and the Bulls cruised after that.

[ELITEpower23]

The Knicks were giving that game away - they were down 15 after 1 quarter and it was a blowout that never got closer after that - Jordan had 8 points and 6 assists in that 1st quarter, while Pippen had 6 points and zero assists - so Jordan "westbrooked or lebron-balled" the bulls to victory in that first quarter and the Bulls cruised after that.

So Pippen saved MJ again? Saved him after 1-9 blunder. Saved him after being down 0-2 in the '93 ECF when he shot 3 for 18, and then held the Bulls together for two years when MJ decided to quit for baseball and delivered another 3 peat? Sounds like Pippen saved MJ a lot, including this monumental game 3 in the 1993 ECF:

https://i.postimg.cc/9FQyj0J0/scottie-again.png

Sounds like MJ was the Robin to me

[3ba11]

So Pippen saved MJ again? Saved him after 1-9 blunder. Saved him after being down 0-2 in the '93 ECF when he shot 3 for 18, and then held the Bulls together for two years when MJ decided to quit for baseball and delivered another 3 peat? Sounds like Pippen saved MJ a lot, including this monumental game 3 in the 1993 ECF:

https://i.postimg.cc/9FQyj0J0/scottie-again.png

Sounds like MJ was the Robin to me


Jordan led the team in scoring, assists and won the game in the 1st quarter when the game was won.

So carry on..

Pippen never hit a big shot.. He never dominated any series... He never dominated any key stretch in a 15-year playoff career.. It's like Colin Cowherd said: "Pippen was a slasher, an athlete, a defender - he isn't the guy you drew up plays for"....

Pippen was a defensive role player forced into a 2nd option role because the Bulls' roster was so thin - his worst-ever efficiency proves he couldn't handle the load.. And sure enough - as soon as he was out of the bosum of the triangle and the winning culture that Jordan created, he was instantly demoted to 4th option behind fossils Hakeem/Barkley and other guys in 99' for the Rockets.

[SaintzFury13]

Jordan led the team in scoring, assists and won the game in the 1st quarter when the game was won.

So carry on..

No professional team in the history of the sport of basketball would ever think a game is over after the first quarter, especially in a playoff game.

This might be the most idiotic argument I've ever seen in my life.

[Sportal]

I wonder how he won the game in the first quarter probably shooting 1 from 6... Odd.

[97 bulls]

No professional team in the history of the sport of basketball would ever think a game is over after the first quarter, especially in a playoff game.

This might be the most idiotic argument I've ever seen in my life.

I swear this guy is sitting on his phone or computer just typing dumb stuff for nothing more than to get a rise out of us. I think he's found his niche and is playing it out. But doesn't believe 95% of the trash that comes out of his mouth.

I blame us. I for instance keep clicking on these troll threads. I'm just as bad as him. SMDH

[sdot_thadon]

Yup agreed.

[3ba11]

No professional team in the history of the sport of basketball would ever think a game is over after the first quarter, especially in a playoff game.

This might be the most idiotic argument I've ever seen in my life.


The Knicks were down big at the end of the 1st quarter and never challenged after that - it's a fact - Jordan won the game in the 1st quarter, while Pippen did nothing... Only when the game was long over did Pippen pad his stats, while Jordan had already won the game and resumed recovering from his hangover.

[3ba11]

Payton = 1b on a Finals team and dpoy

Pippen = 2nd option and never dpoy

[Johnny32]

pippen played one season in his prime without jordan. he avg 22, 6, 9 on 49% and made 1st team all nba, 1st team defense and was 3rd in mvp voting.

lol @ gp.

[3ba11]

pippen played one season in his prime without jordan. he avg 22, 6, 9 on 49% and made 1st team all nba, 1st team defense and was 3rd in mvp voting.

lol @ gp.


^^^ that's below Blake Griffin's peak and an absolutely trash peak compared to........................... ANYONE... :yaohappy:


Comparing Pippen's 6 Finals performances to peak Horry performance (95' Finals)

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

[Johnny32]

^^^ that's below Blake Griffin's peak and an absolutely trash peak compared to........................... ANYONE... :yaohappy:


Comparing Pippen's 6 Finals performances to peak Horry performance (95' Finals)

the argument was gp clownboy.

[3ba11]

the argument was gp clownboy.


Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that played below peak Horry each time

It's called the greatest of all time son, aka GOAT

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ that's below Blake Griffin's peak and an absolutely trash peak compared to........................... ANYONE... :yaohappy:


Comparing Pippen's 6 Finals performances to peak Horry performance (95' Finals)

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS
96’ Payton…. 14.4 gamescore…. 18/6/7/2/0 on 53 TS

Looks like by your own calculation not only was Pippen better than Payton in the majority of his Finals, but ‘95 Horry had a better peak than one of the best players of Jordan’s era.

[3ba11]

96’ Payton…. 14.4 gamescore…. 18/6/7/2/0 on 53 TS

Looks like by your own calculation that not only was Pippen better than Payton in the majority of his Finals, but apparently ‘95 Horry had a better peak than one of the best players of Jordan’s era.


Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that played below peak Horry each time

It's called the greatest of all time son, aka GOAT

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that played below peak Horry each time

It's called the greatest of all time son, aka GOAT
He also played above Payton most of the time too. 2 of the best players of Jordan’s era confirmed worse than a role player, what a sorry ass era.

[Johnny32]

96’ Payton…. 14.4 gamescore…. 18/6/7/2/0 on 53 TS

Looks like by your own calculation not only was Pippen better than Payton in the majority of his Finals, but ‘95 Horry had a better peak than one of the best players of Jordan’s era.

lol he doesn't like to compare pippen's production vs the second options of his era because then that starts to prove jordan had more help.

[3ba11]

96’ Payton…. 14.4 gamescore…. 18/6/7/2/0 on 53 TS

Looks like by your own calculation not only was Pippen better than Payton in the majority of his Finals, but ‘95 Horry had a better peak than one of the best players of Jordan’s era.


Pippen playing worse than peak Horry in 6 of 6 Finals doesn't show the era was weak - it shows PIPPEN was weak... it literally shows exactly that, but your denial is making you think the opposite of this uncomfortable truth.

[SouBeachTalents]

lol he doesn't like to compare pippen's production vs the second options of his era because then that starts to prove jordan had more help.
Let’s see him do the ‘95 Horry comparison with the Bulls opposing 2nd options, something tells me the vast majority of them will be proven to be worse than a role player too :lol

If anyone wants to make the effort, someone should do that and see 3ball’s calculation blow up in his face.

[3ba11]

lol he doesn't like to compare pippen's production vs the second options of his era because then that starts to prove jordan had more help.


Pippen's low peak capability (15-22 ppg) meant that he was never materially higher than anyone - he basically matched most opposing 2nd options except with worst-ever efficiency, which means he was outplayed in the vast majority of series.. His true shooting was below league-average in the playoffs for every year of his career except 89-91' and 02'.

Infact, he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ because he was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 7 of 7 series without MJ.. And his stint at 1st option ended with him destroying a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years (borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned).. Btw, an enlargement of the Hubert Davis foul gif shows a clear HACK (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif).. So Pippen is also the greatest choker of all time.

Ultimately, Pippen was just the low-producing bum (lower than peak Horry) that arrived at the right time after the super-team 80's, when expansion had spread the talent around evenly - this allowed 2-star teams to win, and anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star vs 2-star format... Of course, if Jordan was given an extra all-star teammate (3 all-star team), he would beat any team in history.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen playing worse than peak Horry in 6 of 6 Finals doesn't show the era was weak - it shows PIPPEN was weak... it literally shows exactly that, but your denial is making you think the opposite of this uncomfortable truth.
Since Pippen’s terrible production was such an anomaly, let’s see you post all of the Bulls opponents 2nd options in the Finals and compare them to ‘95 Horry. I guarantee you’re too much of a chickenshit to do it :lol

[3ba11]

Since Pippen’s terrible production was such an anomaly, let’s see you post all of the Bulls opponents 2nd options in the Finals and compare them to ‘95 Horry. I guarantee you’re too much of a chickenshit to do it :lol


Majerle outplayed Pippen in the 93' Finals based on gamescore - Pippen shot 46% true shooting on high volume - that's the only reason the series was a virtual tie until Paxson's shot... Again, anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it because MJ never wet the bed in any series.. Only Pippen did.

Pippen also let rookie Dumas (4th option) get 16 on 57% fg and win Game 5 to extend the series.

So Majerle outplayed Pippen, while Stockton outplayed Pippen in 97' by tripling Pippen's apg and literally scoring like MJ in clutch time:

1997 Finals Clutch-time points

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-17-2021/gifJSb.gif

Then there's the 96' ECF and Finals where Pippen was destroyed, or the 98' ECF and Finals where Pippen was outplayed by Smits and then quit in both closeout games of the Finals.

So the facts show that Pippen had 4 bad Finals and was outplayed each, while his 2 viable Finals remain below peak Horry caliber.

[SouBeachTalents]

Called it ^, too big of a pusssy to do it :lol Guaranteed he’ll respond while completely sidestepping the topic, again.

[3ba11]

Called it ^, too big of a pusssy to do it :lol Guaranteed he’ll respond while completely sidestepping the topic, again.


Pippen tied opposing 2nd options with worse efficiency, aka outplayed....

And he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ - only MJ elevated him to that level

So Pippen is Horry without MJ (with a worse peak than Horry)

[bizil]

When u combined scoring, passing, and defense as a package, GP is arguably the best PG of all time. Right there with Frazier and CP3. If you are talking TWO WAY ABILITY, GP is the best PG of all time. Scoring wise, I would fear Payton more than Pippen. Plus GP could defend PG, SG, and many SF's at high levels.

SO FOR ME, GOAT wise Pip has the edge due to rings. BUT peak-prime wise, I'm taking GP. GP is getting underrated as the years go on. Only PG's FOR SURE I would take peak-prime wise over him are Magic, Oscar, Steph,and Isiah. After those four can't say FOR SURE I would any other PG's over The Glove peak-prime wise.

Thing is GP is a superior scorer and passer FOR SURE over Pippen. And defensively, GP is the RARE PERIMETER PLAYER who u could say was better than Pippen. Pip had more defensive versatility cause he could defend four positions. But man on man wise and pure defensive principles, GP is the cream of the crop at his position.

[Johnny32]

pippen's only season in his prime without mj vs gp's best scoring season per 100 possessions.

pippen - 30.0 ppg on 24.2 fga and 54.4 ts%
payton - 29.8 ppg on 25.0 fga and 53.5 ts%

like for sure a better scorer.