Switch Jordan and Barkley during the early 90's run

[hateraid]

Now you have:

Philadelphia 76ers

Ricky Green
Michael Jordan
Ron Anderson
Armon Gilliam
Rick Mahorn

Hersey Hawkins comes off bench in place of Jordan

Chicago Bulls

John Paxson
Craig Hodges (or BJ Armstrong, although 2 PG starting wasn't very common early 90s)
Scottie Pippen
Charles Barkley
Bill Cartwright

Horace Grant off the bench in place of Barkley


Does Chicago still win that year? Do they 3peat?
Does Jordan carry this team to the finals?

[mehyaM24]

with barkley, chicago would be a powerhouse and still the best team.

because of defense, i'm not sure they win the same number of titles. but for a long period barkley was as good as anyone offensively. his o-rating & other measures like o-bpm, o-winshares etc. were on par with just about anyone. the bulls win 4-5 minimum.

[mehyaM24]

was also thinking of barkley for more years than your op.

so to answer your question directly, i do think they 3-peat. not really liking jordan's fit in philadelphia though. and dont see how they get past the early 90s knicks either.

[hateraid]

with barkley, chicago would be a powerhouse and still the best team.

because of defense, i'm not sure they win the same number of titles. but for a long period barkley was as good as anyone offensively. his o-rating & other measures like o-bpm, o-winshares etc. were on par with just about anyone. the bulls win 4-5 minimum.

You think Jordan can compete with this team? 90-91 Barkley carried us to 45 wins. Dawkins down and Gminski traded for Gilliam. This is what Barkley was left with. Does Jordan emulate that same team success?

[3ball]

Barkley had 3 teammates that achieved Pippen production in the 1990 ECSF, yet still lost because Jordan carried the load with 43/7/7 on 55%

[hateraid]

Barkley had 3 teammates that achieved Pippen production in the 1990 ECSF, yet still lost because Jordan carried the load with 43/7/7 on 55%

:roll:
So you're saying you would rather have Hawkins, Ron Anderson, and Gilliam over Pippen?
No wonder you got kicked off RealGM

[Xiao Yao You]

Now you have:

Philadelphia 76ers

Ricky Green
Michael Jordan
Ron Anderson
Armon Gilliam
Rick Mahorn

Hersey Hawkins comes off bench in place of Jordan

Chicago Bulls

John Paxson
Craig Hodges (or BJ Armstrong, although 2 PG starting wasn't very common early 90s)
Scottie Pippen
Charles Barkley
Bill Cartwright

Horace Grant off the bench in place of Barkley


Does Chicago still win that year? Do they 3peat?
Does Jordan carry this team to the finals?

Ricky Green was done by '88 and Mahorn was just a goon but the Sixers probably still better because of MJ's greatness

[mehyaM24]

You think Jordan can compete with this team? 90-91 Barkley carried us to 45 wins. Dawkins down and Gminski traded for Gilliam. This is what Barkley was left with. Does Jordan emulate that same team success?

maybe a finals appearance. jordan isn't winning a championship with that team though.

[hateraid]

Ricky Green was done by '88 and Mahorn was just a goon but the Sixers probably still better because of MJ's greatness

Ricky Green was our starter when Dawkins went down. We could never recover. tried Hawkins at PG, but he was more of an effective catch and shoot player. the OG 3 and D

[3ball]

:roll:
So you're saying you would rather have Hawkins, Ron Anderson, and Gilliam over Pippen?
No wonder you got kicked off RealGM


No, I'd take them over Horace dumbass, who averaged 10.8 while they all got 16+... jordan infact NEVER had a 3rd option, whereas Barkley had viable 3rd and 4th options (3 teammates producing at Pippen level)

You guys simply don't realize simple things like this, so you enjoy your dumb communities like RealGM and cancel all the truly smart people.. so you guys are in bizarro world over there

[hateraid]

No, I'd take them over Horace dumbass, who averaged 10.8 while they all got 16+... jordan infact NEVER had a 3rd option, whereas Barkley had viable 3rd and 4th options (3 guys producing at Pippen level)

You guys are just too dumb to realize simple things like this, so you enjoy your dumb communities like RealGM and kick all the truly smart people off.. so you guys are in bizarro world over there

Viable 3rd options??? :roll:
I'd take Horace Grant over Armon Gilliam ANYDAY. And Hawkins over Pippen??? You really have no context outside of numbers do you? I'd have trdaded Hawkins and Gilliam for Grant and Pippen in that series ANYDAY and EVERYDAY

[3ball]

Viable 3rd options??? :roll:
I'd take Horace Grant over Armon Gilliam ANYDAY. And Hawkins over Pippen??? You really have no context outside of numbers do you? I'd have trdaded Hawkins and Gilliam for Grant and Pippen in that series ANYDAY and EVERYDAY

You're missing the key issue - you'd take Horace over offensive threats and LOSE because you don't have the goat to average 43/7/7 and make up for lack of 3rd option.. scoring MATTERS bub, and having basic rebounders like Horace at 3rd option requires the goat #1 option to win

[Xiao Yao You]

Ricky Green was our starter when Dawkins went down. We could never recover. tried Hawkins at PG, but he was more of an effective catch and shoot player. the OG 3 and D

Johnny Dawkins sucked too no?

[mehyaM24]

Viable 3rd options??? :roll:
I'd take Horace Grant over Armon Gilliam ANYDAY. And Hawkins over Pippen??? You really have no context outside of numbers do you? I'd have trdaded Hawkins and Gilliam for Grant and Pippen in that series ANYDAY and EVERYDAY

pippen's numbers are better than hawkins. so even if he wanted to use that as a barometer, he couldn't argue it.

[3ball]

pippen's numbers are better than hawkins. so even if he wanted to use that as a barometer, he couldn't argue it.


Pippen averaged the same as Hawkins in that series, while 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

[hateraid]

You're missing the key issue - you'd take Horace over offensive threats and LOSE because you don't have the goat to average 43/7/7 and make up for lack of 3rd option.. scoring MATTERS bub, and having basic rebounders like Horace at 3rd option requires the goat #1 option to win

Dude, what are you debating here? This statement is all mumbo jumbo. I have no clue what you are trying to say.

[hateraid]

Pippen averaged the same as Hawkins in that series, while 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

Or maybe those numbers are displaced because Jordan had the advantage over Hawkins? Use your brain. You think if Gillam was in place of Grant he'd score more? Seriously, your posts are so confusing

[SouBeachTalents]

Dude, what are you debating here? This statement is all mumbo jumbo. I have no clue what you are trying to say.
I can translate: Jordan's the GOAT, Pippen sucks. That and LeBron is overrated make up virtually all of his 31,000+ posts

[3ball]

Or maybe those numbers are displaced because Jordan had the advantage over Hawkins? Use your brain. You think if Gillam was in place of Grant he'd score more? Seriously, your posts are so confusing


Again, Jordan lacked a 3rd scoring option, while Barkley had 3 teammates average Pippen's typical scoring numbers..

But despite Barkley's superior help, he lost because Jordan averaged 43/7/7

How are you confused by this.. it seems simple

[mehyaM24]

Pippen averaged the same as Hawkins in that series, while 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

wrong. pippen's impact numbers were better across the board. not only did pippen have a superior BPM, but also posted greater ORTG/DRTG splits and a better gamescore.


Or maybe those numbers are displaced because Jordan had the advantage over Hawkins? Use your brain. You think if Gillam was in place of Grant he'd score more? Seriously, your posts are so confusing

its not even true though. so no point debating an error on his end.

[3ball]

wrong. pippen's impact numbers were better across the board. not only did pippen have a superior BPM, but also posted greater ORTG/DRTG splits and a better gamescore.



its not even true though. so no point debating an error on his end.


After the Hawkins/Pippen stalemate, 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

[mehyaM24]

After the Hawkins/Pippen stalemate, 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

pippen posted better advanced stats than hawkins. therefor was the better and more impactful player.

anything else?

[hateraid]

Again, Jordan lacked a 3rd scoring option, while Barkley had 3 teammates average Pippen's typical scoring numbers..

But despite Barkley's superior help, he lost because Jordan averaged 43/7/7

How are you confused by this.. it seems simple

So basically you're using scoring statistics as your basis of argument

So answer this without stats:

Who would you rather have on you team in that particular series..and in that particular season?
Hawkins and Gilliam or Pippen and Grant? Pick one without deferring to any metrics. If you can't then you have absolutely NO context outside of the stats you wisely manipulate

[hateraid]

pippen posted better advanced stats than hawkins. therefor was the better and more impactful player.

anything else?

Pippen >>> Hawkins. Period. And I'm a MAJOR Hawkins homer

[3ball]

Pippen >>> Hawkins. Period. And I'm a MAJOR Hawkins homer


Yeah but their scoring was a stalemate in the 90' ECSF

And after the Hawkins/Pippen stalemate, 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

jordan infact NEVER had a 3rd option, so this coupled with an often-weak-scoring 2nd option caused him to carry the goat load

[hateraid]

Yeah but their scoring was a stalemate in the 90' ECSF

And after the Hawkins/Pippen stalemate, 2 other Sixers averaged 16.3 to Horace's 10.8, thus requiring Jordan to carry the load with 43/7/7

jordan infact NEVER had a 3rd option, so this coupled with an often-weak-scoring 2nd option caused him to carry the goat load

And thank you for validating my point :applause:

[3ball]

And thank you for validating my point :applause:


Bottom line - Barkley had more help in 1990 (more productive 3rd and 4th options with a scoring stalemate at 2nd option), but lost because Jordan was goat (43/7/7)

[hateraid]

Bottom line - Barkley had more help in 1990 (more productive 3rd and 4th options with a scoring stalemate at 2nd option), but lost because Jordan was goat (43/7/7)

Bottom line, you have zero knowledge outside of what you read on basketball-reference.com

[3ball]

Bottom line, you have zero knowledge outside of what you read on basketball-reference.com


I played D1 against a lot of your heroes and the same guys we argue about itt

You probably never picked up a ball

So 3ball is right about literally everything so far itt

[AussieSteve]

No, I'd take them over Horace dumbass, who averaged 10.8 while they all got 16+... jordan infact NEVER had a 3rd option, whereas Barkley had viable 3rd and 4th options (3 teammates producing at Pippen level)

You guys simply don't realize simple things like this, so you enjoy your dumb communities like RealGM and cancel all the truly smart people.. so you guys are in bizarro world over there

Barkley was one of the all time great floor raisers on offense. I made a thread a few years ago about this showing that all his Philly team mates achieved career highs in scoring alongside him. (Thread was deleted)

Barkley scored 25.2ppg on 14.9fga. Just insane efficiency in that era. He also drew more doubles than anyone, so all his team mates found themselves open to take more shots. Jordan took way more shots and pippen was a much better 2nd option than anything barkley had. So Barkley's role players got more opportunities to score.

Philly achieved top 2 ORtgs in back to back seasons with Barkley and scrubs.

[AussieSteve]

Offensively I think both teams don't miss a beat. The Bulls might even be slightly better with Barkley offensively. With Phil as his coach and Pip by his side, we would have seen more of Barkley at his best.

Defensively the Bulls would obviously be worse with Jordan gone and Horace moved to back up PF. But Barkley competed far better on D when his teams were good than when they sucked, particularly in the playoffs. So I'm inclined to think that the drop off on D wouldn't be too dramatic.

The reality is that with Barkley and Pippen, the Bulls still have a top 2-3 player and a top 5-10 player, when no other team had 2 players even in the top 15. So, the Bulls still 3peat.

Philly doesn't get past the Bulls in 90 or 91, so 2nd round exits. In 92 Barkley quit on the 76ers. Jordan probably wouldn't have done that so they make the playoffs that year but don't get far.

[TAZORAC]

The Bulls are still a better team.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen >>> Hawkins. Period. And I'm a MAJOR Hawkins homer

yup, not many will disagree with you there. the posters who compare pippen to the likes of hawkins, schrempf etc. never watched those bulls play.

how do you see jordan's career playing out on those philly teams? likely isn't winning a title as is, which shows why ring counting is dumb, but any deep postseason runs? what would a playoff series with jordan's sixers vs barkley's bulls look like?

[3ball]

Offensively I think both teams don't miss a beat. The Bulls might even be slightly better with Barkley offensively.





The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense.

So the Sixers had a better defense and 4 guys scoring at Pippen's level - so they had better help on both sides of the ball

However, 90' Pippen was worse offensively than 09' Mo, 05' Zydrunas, and gets destroyed by 05' Hughes.


05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

[hateraid]

I played D1 against a lot of your heroes and the same guys we argue about itt


:roll:
Is that what you tell people on here? There is no way in HELL that is true. People who have played at a competitive level can articulate better and provide insight outside of stats. Take for example Thorpesaurus (miss this guy) who has played D1. Not only is he on top of stats, he can articulate it better visually. He can appreciate great players outside of what he reads on basketball-statistics. Unlike you where you only refer to stats and manipulate them into whatever story you want to create. You are not a basketball player. You can't assess the game like one


So 3ball is right about literally everything so far itt
In what sense? You can plagiarize stats? Yeah, you're 100% right. You thinking Hawkins is better than Pippen is :roll::roll::roll:
Reality is you are a basement dwelling, stat nerd. You are good at it. But that's about all you're good at

[hateraid]

The 90' Bulls had the #19 defense.

So the Sixers had a better defense and 4 guys scoring at Pippen's level - so they had better help on both sides of the ball

However, 90' Pippen was worse offensively than 09' Mo, 05' Zydrunas, and gets destroyed by 05' Hughes.


05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

So without deferring to stats, who would you rather have in that series on your team? Pippen or Hawkins? Try and answer straight up

[tpols]

Its a silly thing to ponder since MJ was a big part of why Pippen became a great defender. MJ was a literal DPOY... Barkley had little interest in defense. The 90s Bulls don't develop their intense defensive identity under Barkley. And like has been shown, Pippen was awful offensively in a lot of spots even worse than the Sixers help.

You don't get it but there are huge butterfly effects when it comes to these things. You dont get to just plop Barkley in a situation Jordan helped craft. Itd be an entirely different team if you gave Charles the keys from the start in '88, and we know Pippen and Barkley were a HORRIBLE fit together in 1999 butting heads as teammates and trash talking each other in the media. OP is clueless.

[3ball]

So without deferring to stats, who would you rather have in that series on your team? Pippen or Hawkins? Try and answer straight up


I have to go with the math

The math says that Barkley had a teammate to match Pippen's production, while also having 2 more guys to destroy Grant

So I have to go with Barkley's help.... The math says he had more help (3 teammates at 16+, compared to 1 for Jordan)

[hateraid]

I have to go with the math

The math says that Barkley had a teammate to match Pippen's production, while also having 2 more guys to destroy Grant

So I have to go with Barkley's help.... The math says he had more help

Proving once again you have no insight and context outside of stats. Relying on "math" to make your conclusion. :lol
Again, way to prove my point :applause:

Me: pick A or B without using stats
3ball: uses stats to make his pick

Classic

[hateraid]

Its a silly thing to ponder since MJ was a big part of why Pippen became a great defender. MJ was a literal DPOY... Barkley had little interest in defense. The 90s Bulls don't develop their intense defensive identity under Barkley. And like has been shown, Pippen was awful offensively in a lot of spots even worse than the Sixers help.

You don't get it but there are huge butterfly effects when it comes to these things. You dont get to just plop Barkley in a situation Jordan helped craft. Itd be an entirely different team if you gave Charles the keys from the start in '88, and we know Pippen and Barkley were a HORRIBLE fit together in 1999 butting heads as teammates and trash talking each other in the media. OP is clueless.

OTOH you probably would claim that bunch of scrubs Barkley had to carry to 45 wins instantly gets better with Jordan. Which makes you equally as clueless.

[3ball]

Proving once again you have no insight and context outside of stats. Relying on "math" to make your conclusion. :lol
Again, way to prove my point :applause:

Me: pick A or B without using stats
3ball: uses stats to make his pick

Classic


I'm just trying to be objective by looking at the numbers (Barkley's superior team defense and offensive help), while you're being slimy by camoflauging your subjective opinion as "context"

[hateraid]

I'm just trying to be objective by looking at the numbers (Barkley's superior team defense and offensive help), while you're being slimy by camoflauging your subjective opinion as "context"

Are you that ignorant to ignore EVERYONE is pointing out you rely solely on stats? You provide no context or actual real life insight. You keep repeating the same statline over and over and get debunked, but you still think the same statline will change that notion by repeating it. There is a definition of it and it's called insanity.

But yeah, saying Pippen is better than Hawkins is just an "opinion". :lol

[tpols]

OTOH you probably would claim that bunch of scrubs Barkley had to carry to 45 wins instantly gets better with Jordan. Which makes you equally as clueless.

Wait a second... why are you not acknowledging that Pippen and Barkley bumped heads big time chemistry wise when they teamed up? That's not a hypothetical. That happened in real life. Am I going to have to pull the articles for you? They ain't winning anywhere near 6 rings together, an implosion would be more likely.

[Kiddlovesnets]

A lot of players would've won with the Bulls, but to go 6/6 is another thing though. Its not about whether they could've won, its more about whether they could be half as dominant as MJ.

[3ball]

: Facepalm

[mehyaM24]

Its a silly thing to ponder since MJ was a big part of why Pippen became a great defender. MJ was a literal DPOY... Barkley had little interest in defense. The 90s Bulls don't develop their intense defensive identity under Barkley. And like has been shown, Pippen was awful offensively in a lot of spots even worse than the Sixers help.

You don't get it but there are huge butterfly effects when it comes to these things. You dont get to just plop Barkley in a situation Jordan helped craft. Itd be an entirely different team if you gave Charles the keys from the start in '88, and we know Pippen and Barkley were a HORRIBLE fit together in 1999 butting heads as teammates and trash talking each other in the media. OP is clueless.

barkley had some of the greatest offensive impact in history, while pippen had innate impact out the gate. see below


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M&ab_channel=PippenPlayoffs

its a myth that jordan "made" him (why didn't jordan "make" more?). truth is pippen was going to be great no matter what. you simply can't teach his athleticism, build or iq. these are ALL innate attributes and exactly why he was successful without jordan. 55 wins and took the knicks to G7. top 3 mvp candidate. leading the blazers to the wcf and a G7 etc.

[3ball]

Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs (1b) for most of their rings, so only Jordan could win rings with Pippen - he has 6 rings with a low-producing 2nd option, while everyone else won most of their rings with an elite 1st option sidekick.

Jordan is the only guy that could win a bunch of rings with a true 2nd option, aka the production Pippen achieved - this is historical fact - everyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to average 25+ or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals - but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP, so only Jordan could win with Pippen


barkley had some of the greatest offensive impact in history, while pippen had innate impact out the gate. see below


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M&ab_channel=PippenPlayoffs

its a myth that jordan "made" him (why didn't jordan "make" more?). truth is pippen was going to be great no matter what. you simply can't teach his athleticism, build or iq. these are ALL innate attributes and exactly why he was successful without jordan. 55 wins and took the knicks to G7. top 3 mvp candidate. leading the blazers to the wcf and a G7 etc.


Pippen cost the Bulls 3 rings from 88-90' with his horrific play - post his stats in the 88' Playoffs, 89' Playoffs, and 90' ECF or stfu

Boobie Gibson scored 31 points on 99% true shooting to win the ECF, while lebron wet the bed with 3-11

[3ball]

A lot of players would've won with the Bulls, but to go 6/6 is another thing though. Its not about whether they could've won, its more about whether they could be half as dominant as MJ.


Everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs (1b) for most of their rings, so only Jordan could win rings with Pippen - he has 6 rings with a low-producing 2nd option, while everyone else won most of their rings with an elite 1st option sidekick.

Jordan is the only guy that could win a bunch of rings with a true 2nd option, aka the production Pippen achieved - this is historical fact - everyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to average 25+ or win FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals - but Pippen peaked at 21 ppg and is 0/6 in FMVP, so only Jordan could win with Pippen

[mehyaM24]

Pippen cost the Bulls 3 rings from 88-90' with his horrific play - post his stats in the 88' Playoffs, 89' Playoffs, and 90' ECF or stfu

Boobie Gibson scored 31 points on 99% true shooting to win the ECF, while lebron wet the bed with 3-11

checkout the defense and playmaking, moron. or even the anticipation at 4:10. pippen was destined to be a STAR whether you like it or not.

no surprise pippen made all-team, all-defense and finished top 3 in mvp voting without jordan - again, you simply can't teach talent

[3ball]

checkout the defense and playmaking, moron. or even the anticipation at 4:10. pippen was destined to be a STAR whether you like it or not.

no surprise pippen made all-team, all-defense and finished top 3 in mvp voting without jordan - again, you simply can't teach talent


All rookies have a a good play

Dumb argument

I can find highlights from Darius Miles that make him look way better than pippen.. but Darius didn't have mj so he became a bum

Ultimately, you have no examples of Pippen playing at a top 30 all-time level, because that requires domination and Pippen was limited to peak Larry Hughes production

[mehyaM24]

All rookies have a a good play

Dumb argument

I can find highlights from Darius Miles that make him look way better than pippen.. but Darius didn't have mj

all rookies don't go on to have 17 all-nba selections, defense included. apples and oranges buddy.

[3ball]

all rookies don't go on to have 17 all-nba selections, defense included. apples and oranges buddy.


They do if they get carried to 6 chips.

Pippen is the only guy ranked anywhere near top 50 that produced like peak Larry Hughes as their standard caliber of play

Pippen simply never played great or anywhere near top 50

You could end the argument easily by saying "Pippen dominated this series", or "Pippen took over here".. but Pippen has nothing like this... He was a role player that got carried.. his standard was literally 16 on 40%.. look it up - dozens of BIG SERIES where he averaged 16 on 40%
.

[mehyaM24]

They do if they get carried to 6 chips.

that isn't true. you don't make all-league and all-defensive selections by being carried. you're not top 3 in mvp voting without the person supposedly "carrying" either.

find your brain.

[3ball]

that isn't true. you don't make all-league and all-defensive selections by being carried. you're not top 3 in mvp voting without the person supposedly "carrying" either.

find your brain.


Blake Griffin was #3 in MVP voting... IT was #5

Pippen peak production was actually much less than theirs... He was simply inflated by people being shocked that he didn't totally suck.. he was literally babied by the Bulls and media (who basically ignored him)

Pippen is the only guy ranked anywhere near top 50 that produced like his Larry Hughes as their standard caliber of play

Pippen simply never played great or anywhere near top 50

You could end the argument easily by saying "Pippen dominated this series", or "Pippen took over here".. but Pippen has nothing like this... He was a role player that got carried.. his standard was literally 16 on 40%.. look it up - dozens of BIG SERIES where he averaged 16 on 40%

[mehyaM24]

Blake Griffin was #3 in MVP voting... IT was #5

Pippen peak production was actually much less than theirs... He was simply inflated by people being shocked that he didn't totally suck.. he was literally babied by the Bulls and media (who basically ignored him)

Pippen is the only guy ranked anywhere near top 50 that produced like his Larry Hughes as their standard caliber of play

Pippen simply never played great or anywhere near top 50

You could end the argument easily by saying "Pippen dominated this series", or "Pippen took over here".. but Pippen has nothing like this... He was a role player that got carried.. his standard was literally 16 on 40%.. look it up - dozens of BIG SERIES where he averaged 16 on 40%

but, prime pippen's impact metrics were top 10 every year. we don't cherry-pick random series because the playoffs also paint him top 10. see how that works? ultimately, how do you reconcile comparing pippen to larry hughes and jr smith? were the 90s that awful? :oldlol:

[AirBonner]

Barkley would have 6-peated

[3ball]

prime pippen's impact metrics were top 10 every year.





false - Pippen's PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency, and OBPM was borderline top 25 in the 90's and less than Kemp's:



1990-1999 (nineties)

Kemp...... 20.6 PER... 0.169 WS/48
Pippen.... 20.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48


So most of Pippen's stats were low and not anywhere near top 10 in the 90's... Pippen was only viable in 2 stats that mean little... aka bpm (the steals-counter/stockton stat), and vorp (the games-counter, low peak vorp for pip).

And his prime was simply far inferior to elite guys like Ewing, Stockton, or Drexler, let alone the truly elite guys - elite guys peak at around 30 ppg and top 5 or top 3 in every category - even 12' Wade was top 5 in everything (BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48).

[AirBonner]

All the rebounds they would get would propel the offense to a greater height compensating for the slightly worse defense

[AussieSteve]

I have to go with the math

The math says that Barkley had a teammate to match Pippen's production, while also having 2 more guys to destroy Grant

So I have to go with Barkley's help.... The math says he had more help (3 teammates at 16+, compared to 1 for Jordan)

Barkley was one of the all time great floor raisers on offense. I made a thread a few years ago about this showing that all his Philly team mates achieved career highs in scoring alongside him. (Thread was deleted)

Barkley scored 25.2ppg on 14.9fga. Just insane efficiency in that era. He also drew more doubles than anyone, so all his team mates found themselves open to take more shots. Jordan took way more shots and pippen was a much better 2nd option than anything barkley had. So Barkley's role players got more opportunities to score.

Philly achieved top 2 ORtgs in back to back seasons with Barkley and scrubs.

You say Barkley had more help. The reality is that he created more points for his team mates than Jordan.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan wins more titles with Sixers than Barkley did, and Barkley wins fewer with Bulls than Jordan did. Sixers supporting cast score less with Jordan on board because he's taking more shots than Barkley and grabbing fewer boards. Fewer chances to score means lower scoring for those guys.

Also, Jordan made Pippen better since Pippen got to test himself against the best offensive player in the game, and Pippen made Jordan better since he got to hone his skills against one of the best defenders in the game.

[mehyaM24]

false - Pippen's PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency, and OBPM was borderline top 25 in the 90's and less than Kemp's:



1990-1999 (nineties)

Kemp...... 20.6 PER... 0.169 WS/48
Pippen.... 20.4 PER... 0.169 WS/48


So most of Pippen's stats were low and not anywhere near top 10 in the 90's... Pippen was only viable in 2 stats that mean little... aka bpm (the steals-counter/stockton stat), and vorp (the games-counter, low peak vorp for pip).

And his prime was simply far inferior to elite guys like Ewing, Stockton, or Drexler, let alone the truly elite guys - elite guys peak at around 30 ppg and top 5 or top 3 in every category - even 12' Wade was top 5 in everything (BPM, PER, VORP, WS/48).

both metrics don't isolate impact like bpm and vorp do. which also means they aren't telling you much. per for example is an all-around efficiency stat. could pippen have been more efficient? sure you could argue that. but his impact MORE than made up for it.

90s pippen in the playoffs

6.0 bpm
12.0 vorp

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

this puts pippen alongside other top 10 players like miller, drexler, ewing and stockton. pretty crazy right? well, not really. especially if you watched those bulls teams. pippen was KNOWN for being a defensive terror and the bulls lead-playmaker. the all-teams and defensive selections (16 in total during the 90s) only corroborate that.

[3ball]

Barkley was one of the all time great floor raisers on offense.





Barkley had more help than 90' Jordan (better team defense and 3 teammates with comparable scoring to Pippen), but still lost to Jordan and didn't have a 3-peat like Jordan

So it's not even close.. Jordan led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 09" Mo Williams to within a migraine of the title, and then a 3-peat

He actually did the exact same thing the previous year in 89' with a 6 seed and a different coach (he also beat the #1 SRS Cavs that year)

There's no better floor-raising then that.. ever.. the bulls were a floor-raised team - a legit lottery cast in 89' to dynasty by 91'






Barkley scored 25.2ppg on 14.9fga. Just insane efficiency in that era. He also drew more doubles than anyone, so all his team mates found themselves open to take more shots.





Jordan is the goat scorer and was doubled more than anyone in history, including the Jordan Rules made for him

Jordan was commonly doubled for 10-15 straight possessions, documented here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?386210-MJ-is-the-most-double-teamed-player-of-all-time-besides-Wilt


It's not even close






Jordan took way more shots and pippen was a much better 2nd option than anything barkley had.





Barkley had all-stars and all-defenders at 3rd option, so his help was far superior

And btw, KJ was a better scorer, passer, and leader than Pippen, and he dominated Magic's 1-seeded Lakers to make the 90' WCF... Then he dominated Hakeem in 94' and 95' Playoffs as 1st option over Barkley (29/5/9)... Pippen simply never played anywhere near this level - he GOT dominated by Ewing and laid a big egg in 94'.






So Barkley's role players got more opportunities to score.





89' Jordan was called the best PG in the league ahead of Magic

But in addition to being a top distributor, he also created assists for teammates by being a quick-iso assist target (off-ball).

Otoh, Barkley was a black hole, ball-dominator and inventor of the 10-second back-down on the post... So Barkley cannot touch Jordan as a passer and ball movement facilitator.






Philly achieved top 2 ORtgs in back to back seasons with Barkley and scrubs.





Barkley sucked compared to Jordan because he had more help (3 Pippen's on offense) yet weaker team offenses and winning than Jordan

[kawhileonard2]

Barkley came into the league playing with Cheeks, Dr J and Moses Malone.:(

[AussieSteve]

Barkley came into the league playing with Cheeks, Dr J and Moses Malone.:(

He had Moses for his rookie season only. And the shell of Dr J for 2 seasons after that. By '88, Philly's roster was poverty.

[3ball]

He had Moses for his rookie season only. And the shell of Dr J for 2 seasons after that. By '88, Philly's roster was poverty.


90' Hawkins.... 17.0 PER.. 1.7 BPM.. 0.135 WS/48.. 2.7 VORP
90' Pippen....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals


TLDR: MJ led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title, aka goat carry-job

[8Ball]

0 championships. No Pippen.

Pippen and Barkley on the Bulls would sweep that Jordan led suns team.

[AussieSteve]

Barkley had more help than 90' Jordan (better team defense and 3 teammates with comparable scoring to Pippen), but still lost to Jordan and didn't have a 3-peat like Jordan

So it's not even close.. Jordan led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 09" Mo Williams to within a migraine of the title, and then a 3-peat

He actually did the exact same thing the previous year in 89' with a 6 seed and a different coach (he also beat the #1 SRS Cavs that year)

There's no better floor-raising then that.. ever.. the bulls were a floor-raised team - a legit lottery cast in 89' to dynasty by 91'






Jordan is the goat scorer and was doubled more than anyone in history, including the Jordan Rules made for him

Jordan was commonly doubled for 10-15 straight possessions, documented here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?386210-MJ-is-the-most-double-teamed-player-of-all-time-besides-Wilt


It's not even close






Barkley had all-stars and all-defenders at 3rd option, so his help was far superior

And btw, KJ was a better scorer, passer, and leader than Pippen, and he dominated Magic's 1-seeded Lakers to make the 90' WCF... Then he dominated Hakeem in 94' and 95' Playoffs as 1st option over Barkley (29/5/9)... Pippen simply never played anywhere near this level - he GOT dominated by Ewing and laid a big egg in 94'.






89' Jordan was called the best PG in the league ahead of Magic

But in addition to being a top distributor, he also created assists for teammates by being a quick-iso assist target (off-ball).

Otoh, Barkley was a black hole, ball-dominator and inventor of the 10-second back-down on the post... So Barkley cannot touch Jordan as a passer and ball movement facilitator.






Barkley sucked compared to Jordan because he had more help (3 Pippen's on offense) yet weaker team offenses and winning than Jordan

This entire post is comedy.

I particularly liked "Barkley was a black hole, ball-dominator".

The guy who led the league in ORtg and led the team with the best offense in the league aside from the Showtime Lakers (with Dawkins, Hawkins, Gminski and Mahorn as his starters) was a black hole ball dominator.

I also liked that Barkley had "3 Pippen's on offense"... I assume you're referring to Gminski, Hawkins and Dawkins? :facepalm Note that all three of these guys achieved peak scoring numbers during the 2-4 seasons they played next to Barkley, while Pippen, Grant and Armstrong all achieved their peak scoring the year Jordan left.

[3ball]

0 championships. No Pippen.

Pippen and Barkley on the Bulls would sweep that Jordan led suns team.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlaringCreepyAztecant.webp

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-16-2015/ie68e9.gif


^^^ Dumas destroyed Pippen with 16 on 57% as 4th option on the loaded Suns (Pippen getting destroyed by Dumas in Game 5 is why the series went 6).

Meanwhile, KJ's standard was 20/10 and WCF every year - he was a better scorer, passer, and leader than Pippen with better PER, WS/48, and basically the same BPM.

Meanwhile, Majerle had better gamescore and arguably outplayed Pippen, who shot a horrific 45% true shooting and allowed Dumas to achieve 14' Kawhi numbers as 4th option.

So the Suns were completely loaded, yet Jordan beat them by setting the Finals record

Facts gonna facts

Ultimately, Barkley had the same thing Jordan had - a parity league and 2-star vs 2-star format (although Barkley actually had 3 star teammates) - regardless, Jordan wins with anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.

[hateraid]

This entire post is comedy.

I particularly liked "Barkley was a black hole, ball-dominator".

The guy who led the league in ORtg and led the team with the best offense in the league aside from the Showtime Lakers (with Dawkins, Hawkins, Gminski and Mahorn as his starters) was a black hole ball dominator.

I also liked that Barkley had "3 Pippen's on offense"... I assume you're referring to Gminski, Hawkins and Dawkins? :facepalm Note that all three of these guys achieved peak scoring numbers during the 2-4 seasons they played next to Barkley, while Pippen, Grant and Armstrong all achieved their peak scoring the year Jordan left.

I think he's referring to Gilliam, Hawkins, and Ron Anderson. Giminski was traded and Dawkins was injured. If he is referring to Dawkins and Gminski then he's stupid since they weren't even on the Sixers in that series.
Even then, they were scrubs. The fact he calls them stars negates his whole post and to suggest they are better than Pippen is probably the dumbest thing ever said on ISH. Even the most delusional Jordan Stan wouldn't believe that. Which makes 3ball the most delusional poster on ISH. I don't even bother reading his garbage as he has the worst takes in this site's history.

[hateraid]

90' Hawkins.... 17.0 PER.. 1.7 BPM.. 0.135 WS/48.. 2.7 VORP
90' Pippen....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense

05' L Hughes.... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP

05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals


TLDR: MJ led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title, aka goat carry-job

Like I said in the other thread. All stats, zero context. He ACTUALLY believes all those players are better than Pippen. I really wish the mods just step in and put this guy in his place. People have posted more reasonable posts and RMWG has flown off the handle from it.

[AussieSteve]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GlaringCreepyAztecant.webp

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-16-2015/ie68e9.gif


^^^ Dumas destroyed Pippen with 16 on 57% as 4th option on the loaded Suns (Pippen getting destroyed by Dumas in Game 5 is why the series went 6).

Meanwhile, KJ's standard was 20/10 and WCF every year - he was a better scorer, passer, and leader than Pippen with better PER, WS/48, and basically the same BPM.

Meanwhile, Majerle had better gamescore and arguably outplayed Pippen, who shot a horrific 45% true shooting and allowed Dumas to achieve 14' Kawhi numbers as 4th option.

So the Suns were completely loaded, yet Jordan beat them by setting the Finals record

Facts gonna facts

Ultimately, Barkley had the same thing Jordan had - a parity league and 2-star vs 2-star format (although Barkley actually had 3 star teammates) - regardless, Jordan wins with anyone in a 2-star vs 2-star format.


That first gif is of Dumas getting an open dunk because Barkley drew 3 players. Way to build a case.

Pippen had more points, rebounds and assists than any of Barkley's teammates, as well as being the best defender on the floor.

[nayte]

And again another thread.it must suck that u lot try so hard and get nowhere

[ELITEpower23]

I'll make this easy. No Pip? No Chip.

You can literally swap out MJ for Klay Thompson and those Bulls win championships.

[nayte]

No you couldn't this is why this place is retarded.lol

[hateraid]

You can literally swap out MJ for Klay Thompson and those Bulls win championships.

Not so far fetched considering swapping for Peter Meyers got them to the ECSF

[And1AllDay]

Not so far fetched considering swapping for Peter Meyers got them to the ECSF

bingo

high IQ user

mike was replaced by pete myers and bulls won 55 still! and nearly a ecf showing

[3ball]

That first gif is of Dumas getting an open dunk because Barkley drew 3 players. Way to build a case.

Pippen had more points, rebounds and assists than any of Barkley's teammates, as well as being the best defender on the floor.


It's a good thing KJ was hobbled in that series.

because if he was healthy, I'm not sure MJ could've averaged the 50 needed to carry the Bulls.. We already know that 41 was barely enough against a hobbled KJ - the Bulls/Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg in that series, along with 113.0 ortg (each).. So MJ probably loses against a healthy KJ.

KJ was a 20/10 player - that's superior to Pippen - and yes, anyone that averaged 20/10 in their prime is probably better than Pippen (pts/assists).

Infact, KJ averaged 23/11 while making the WCF over Magic's 1-seeded Lakers, and he was 1st option over Barkley while getting 29/5/9 against the champion Rockets.. This superior peak capability coupled with his superior standard (20/10) is simply better than Pippen.. KJ was better than Pippen.

So it's irrelevant that Pippen had a small statistical edge over an injured 2nd option in the 93' Finals because KJ still nearly matched Pippen and was normally the better player when healthy..

But despite the KJ injury, MJ still had to carry the team because of Pippen's 46% true shooting (poor man's Iverson performance) and matador defense on Dumas/Barkley.. And Pippen was horrible the ENTIRE playoffs, not just the Finals - his PER, WS/48, and pace-adjusted scoring in those playoffs was lower than 14' Wade's, with basically the same BPM (13' Wade was higher across the board).

So again, KJ > Pippen (superior scorer, passer, leader, PER, WS/48, efficiency, basically the same BPM)... And Majerle was a 3x all-star and all-defense, so he destroys Grant.. Meanwhile, Dumas was probably the most talented player outside of MJ/Barkley.. So the Suns were completely stacked, but MJ and the KJ injury doomed them.

[AussieSteve]

It's a good thing KJ was hobbled in that series.

because if he was healthy, I'm not sure MJ could've averaged the 50 needed to carry the Bulls.. We already know that 41 was barely enough against a hobbled KJ - the Bulls/Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg in that series, along with 113.0 ortg (each).. So MJ probably loses against a healthy KJ.

KJ was a 20/10 player - that's superior to Pippen - and yes, anyone that averaged 20/10 in their prime is probably better than Pippen (pts/assists).

Infact, KJ averaged 23/11 while making the WCF over Magic's 1-seeded Lakers, and he was 1st option over Barkley while getting 29/5/9 against the champion Rockets.. This superior peak capability coupled with his superior standard (20/10) is simply better than Pippen.. KJ was better than Pippen.

So it's irrelevant that Pippen had a small statistical edge over an injured 2nd option in the 93' Finals because KJ still nearly matched Pippen and was normally the better player when healthy..

But despite the KJ injury, MJ still had to carry the team because of Pippen's 46% true shooting (poor man's Iverson performance) and matador defense on Dumas/Barkley.. And Pippen was horrible the ENTIRE playoffs, not just the Finals - his PER, WS/48, and pace-adjusted scoring in those playoffs was lower than 14' Wade's, with basically the same BPM (13' Wade was higher across the board).

So again, KJ > Pippen (superior scorer, passer, leader, PER, WS/48, efficiency, basically the same BPM)... And Majerle was a 3x all-star and all-defense, so he destroys Grant.. Meanwhile, Dumas was probably the most talented player outside of MJ/Barkley.. So the Suns were completely stacked, but MJ and the KJ injury doomed them.

Barkley also had an injury on his shooting elbow. If you watch the series, you'll notice he hardly takes a shot outside the paint the whole series and when he did he missed almost every time.

Fascinating that the best team Jordan faced in the 90s had both their best and 2nd best players not at full strength. Could this be an asterisk ring?

Also fascinating how you lie about irrelevant stats like KJs series from 1990.

Also fascinating that you not only refuse to acknowledge that Pippen was a great defender, you actually call him a matador.

Also that you'll hype a rookie Richard Dumas, but only acknowledge Horace Grant, who was a clearly superior player on both ends on the floor, as noting but a play finisher.

Fascinating.

[3ball]

Barkley also had an injury on his shooting elbow. If you watch the series, you'll notice he hardly takes a shot outside the paint the whole series and when he did he missed almost every time.

Fascinating that the best team Jordan faced in the 90s had both their best and 2nd best players not at full strength. Could this be an asterisk ring?

Also fascinating how you lie about irrelevant stats like KJs series from 1990.

Also fascinating that you not only refuse to acknowledge that Pippen was a great defender, you actually call him a matador.

Also that you'll hype a rookie Richard Dumas, but only acknowledge Horace Grant, who was a clearly superior player on both ends on the floor, as noting but a play finisher.

Fascinating.


Dumas ways budding SUPERSTAR

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s


Horace was a play-finisher and wasn't superior to Dumas on either end - that's an obvious fact and if you disagree then you're like 19 years old and never watched

And KJ averaged 22/6/11 while beating the 1-seeded Lakers to make the WCF - then he dominated Hakeem's champion Rockets with 29/5/9

Again, this superior peak capability coupled with his superior standard (20/10) is simply better than Pippen.. So KJ > Pippen (superior scorer, passer, leader, PER, WS/48, efficiency, basically the same BPM)...

And Majerle was a 3x all-star and all-defense, so he destroys Grant.. Meanwhile, Dumas was probably the most talented player outside of MJ/Barkley.. So the Suns were completely stacked, but MJ and the KJ injury doomed them.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dumas ways budding SUPERSTAR

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s


Horace was a play-finisher and wasn't superior to Dumas on either end - that's an obvious fact and if you disagree then you're like 19 years old and never watched

And KJ averaged 22/6/11 while beating the 1-seeded Lakers to make the WCF - then he dominated Hakeem's champion Rockets with 29/5/9

Again, this superior peak capability coupled with his superior standard (20/10) is simply better than Pippen.. So KJ > Pippen (superior scorer, passer, leader, PER, WS/48, efficiency, basically the same BPM)...

And Majerle was a 3x all-star and all-defense, so he destroys Grant.. Meanwhile, Dumas was probably the most talented player outside of MJ/Barkley.. So the Suns were completely stacked, but MJ and the KJ injury doomed them.

Dumas was better than Horace? :roll:

[3ball]

Dumas was better than Horace? :roll:


Rookie Horace..... 13.0 PER
Rookie Dumas..... 18.6 PER

Horace's ceiling was never viewed as more than a play-finisher, while Dumas was viewed as a future superstar
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Rookie Horace..... 13.0 PER
Rookie Dumas..... 18.6 PER

Horace's ceiling was never viewed as more than a play-finisher, while Dumas was viewed as a future superstar
.

Who cares what people thought Dumas would become. And why are you posting Grant rookie stats like they're relevant to 93 playoffs? What people thought he would become doesn't mean anything. What he actually was is what's relevant and he was not ever a better player than Grant

[3ball]

Who cares what people thought Dumas would become. And why are you posting Grant rookie stats like they're relevant to 93 playoffs? What people thought he would become doesn't mean anything. What he actually was is what's relevant and he was not ever a better player than Grant


Rookie Dumas outplayed Horace in the Finals... So did all-star and all-defender Majerle

As usual, Jordan faced multiple guys destroying Horace (see the 91' Finals or 90' ECSF)

It's amazing that Jordan had goat offenses with complete dogshit offensive help, but goat gonna goat

[mehyaM24]

Rookie Dumas outplayed Horace in the Finals... So did all-star and all-defender Majerle

As usual, Jordan faced multiple guys destroying Horace (see the 91' Finals or 90' ECSF)

It's amazing that Jordan had goat offenses with complete dogshit offensive help, but goat gonna goat

grant posted a better gamescore and overall BPM. so no, you're wrong - although that's been a recurring theme for you.

[3ball]

grant posted a better gamescore and overall BPM. so no, you're wrong - although that's been a recurring theme for you.


Veteran champion Grant should be embarrassed for letting the rookie outplay him

12.8 to 12.7 gamescore, so who cares - Dumas single-handedly extended the series in Game 5, while Grant did nothing non-replaceable all series and was significantly outscored..

Furthermore, Dumas' threat as an offensive force made Pippen work, which took away from Pippen's offense (45% true shooting).. Otoh, Grant's ineptness allowed Barkley to rest on defense and remain a force despite a busted elbow

[mehyaM24]

Veteran champion Grant should be embarrassed for letting the rookie outplay him

12.8 to 12.7 gamescore, so who cares - Dumas single-handedly extended the series in Game 5, while Grant did nothing non-replaceable all series and was significantly outscored..

Furthermore, Dumas' threat as an offensive force made Pippen work, which took away from Pippen's offense (45% true shooting).. Otoh, Grant's ineptness allowed Barkley to rest on defense and remain a force despite a busted elbow

so you're acknowledging grant actually had a higher gamescore. don't forget a higher bpm too, which means he outplayed dumas.

but that's a good start buddy.

you're one step closer to admitting mj played with good help. which most of the world knows is common knowledge.

[3ball]

so you're acknowledging grant actually had a higher gamescore. a higher bpm too, which means he outplayed dumas.

that's a good start.

you're one step closer to admitting mj played with good help. which most of the world knows is common knowledge.


BPM is biased by team defense (bulls were better) and gamescore was essentially a tie except Dumas actually won because he was 4th option and Grant was 3rd.

So the stats you think are favorable say nothing to make Grant's case, whereas Richard's massive advantage on offense wore down Pippen and personally extendied the series.. So Dumas was clearly superior by providing less replaceable production than Grant's robotic role.. Again, Dumas' ceiling was Dr. J, while Grant's was Darryl Dawkins

[mehyaM24]

BPM is biased by team defense (bulls were better) and gamescore was essentially a tie except Dumas actually won because he was 4th option and Grant was 3rd.

So the stats you think are favorable say nothing to make Grant's case, whereas Richard's massive advantage on offense wore down Pippen and personally extendied the series.. So Dumas was clearly superior by providing less replaceable production than Grant's robotic role.. Again, Dumas' ceiling was Dr. J, while Grant's was Darryl Dawkins

no more "bias" than winshares & PER - metrics that also count blocks and steals. difference is though BPM isolates individual impact, which also means it is a better measure.

the numbers prove grant's production CLEARLY had more value. you're the only poster here arguing against that fact though.