Who beat Lebron in the 1st round three times?

[ELITEpower23]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron missed playoffs in 2004, 2005 and 2019...
:(

[ShawkFactory]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

Bird was better than MJ in 1986 and no MJ fans would deny that, while Lebronstans would never admit that KD was the better player in 2017 and 2018 despite the fact that Lebron got outplayed by KD in every match except that 51pt loss.

[FireDavidKahn]

Lebron missed playoffs in 2004, 2005 and 2019...
:(

If only LeBron had the luxury of getting to the play offs with 38 wins and 30 wins.

What a weak era.

[Kiddlovesnets]

If only LeBron had the luxury of getting to the play offs with 38 wins and 30 wins.

What a weak era.

Lebron could've made the playoffs in 2004 with 38 wins, the Celtics won 36 games and were the 8th seed. Instead Lebron won 35 games and missed the playoffs, and some fans are happy about this 'cause he avoided a first round sweep by the 61 wins Pacers in 2004(the Pacers swept Celtics in the first round).
:lol

[8Ball]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

Nobody beat LeBron in the 1st round.

[3ball]

Nobody beat LeBron in the 1st round.


^^^ Because he only had high seeds in the playoffs, and it's easy for high seeds to beat low seeds.

his low seeds were lucky to miss the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thereby avoiding matchups with the 19' Warriors or 05' Pistons.

The issue is that lebron isn't good enough to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to 8 seeds because he failed to do so in 04', 05', and 19'..

He only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds that included top defenses and rebounding teams, a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, the COY, and several other all-star players

[Gohan]

Bird was better than MJ in 1986 and no MJ fans would deny that, while Lebronstans would never admit that KD was the better player in 2017 and 2018 despite the fact that Lebron got outplayed by KD in every match except that 51pt loss.

You talking about that game where lebron got wide open 3s every 5 seconds off of screens. That 51 point game wasn’t impressive if you’ve seen the game. It was bad defense by the warriors and they adjusted

[Ainosterhaspie]

You talking about that game where lebron got wide open 3s every 5 seconds off of screens. That 51 point game wasn’t impressive if you’ve seen the game. It was bad defense by the warriors and they adjusted

He only made three threes that game. Not sure how that equates to wide open threes all game leading to 51 points.

[3ball]

Bird was better than MJ in 1986





Bird said Jordan was God, so no

63 points and OT against a goat team with the cocaine circus

[Gohan]

He only made three threes that game. Not sure how that equates to wide open threes all game leading to 51 points.

Not just 3s but rewatch the game it was piss poor defense.

[3ball]

If only LeBron had the luxury of getting to the play offs with 38 wins and 30 wins.

What a weak era.


What would've happened if Lebron's 40-win teams made the playoffs as 8 seeds in 04', 05', or 19'?

He would've been swept obviously

Lebron is lucky to only make the playoffs with developed, high seeds and easy 1st Round matchups against Arenas Wizards

Lebron's 06-10' Cavs were high seeds with top defenses and rebounding teams, a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, the COY, and several other all-star players.

that's EASILY enough to have a top team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight)

[And1AllDay]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

the proof is in the pudding

0 for 6 against bird = bad look for mike

is mike still top 5 at least?

[And1AllDay]

What would've happened if Lebron's 40-win teams made the playoffs as 8 seeds in 04', 05', or 19'?

He would've been swept obviously

Lebron is lucky to only make the playoffs with developed, high seeds and easy 1st Round matchups against Arenas Wizards

Lebron's 06-10' Cavs had top defenses and rebounding teams, a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, the COY, and several other all-star players.

dumb :oldlol:

why didnt mike get better seeds

[And1AllDay]

Nobody beat LeBron in the 1st round.

i see i see

so then why are people talking about 4th round losses when mike was collecting 1st round losses?

bran > mike

[3ball]

dumb :oldlol:

why didnt mike get better seeds


Why didn't lebron get better seeds in 04', 05', or 19'?

Lebron didn't make the playoffs until he had a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, top defending and rebounding teams along with the COY.

that's EASILY enough to have a top team in a weak conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight)

[And1AllDay]

Why didn't lebron get better seeds in 04', 05', or 19'?

Lebron didn't make the playoffs until he had a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, top defending and rebounding teams along with the COY.

that's EASILY enough to have a top team in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight)

this boi shoooketh :oldlol:

mike couldnt win without pippen thats why he didnt get better seeds

duh

[8Ball]

^^^ Because he only had high seeds in the playoffs, and it's easy for high seeds to beat low seeds.

his low seeds were lucky to miss the playoffs in 04', 05', and 19', thereby avoiding matchups with the 19' Warriors or 05' Pistons.

The issue is that lebron isn't good enough to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to 8 seeds because he failed to do so in 04', 05', and 19'..

He only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds that included top defenses and rebounding teams, a 2-time all-star center, the acquisition of a 22/5/5 all-defender, the COY, and several other all-star players

Nobody beat LeBron in the 1st round.

LeBron never went 1-9 in 1st round.

Nor is he 0-6 against all time greats.

[3ball]

this boi shoooketh :oldlol:

mike couldnt win without pippen thats why he didnt get better seeds

duh


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly Finals


^^^ So Jordan led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title

Ultimately, Jordan was an 8 seed without Pippen, while Lebron was a 9 seed with the East all-star center (05'), and then with Ingram/Rondo/Green/Kuzma (19')

Again - the Lebron/Zydrunas all-star duo were lottery, and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'.

Lebron sucks compared to Jordan and the facts always show this

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron/Ilgauskas missed playoffs with a winning record his second year. Jordan made playoffs with 30 wins his second year. Jordan was still in college at an age LeBron was leading an NBA team to a winning record.

[3ball]

LeBron/Ilgauskas missed playoffs with a winning record his second year. Jordan made playoffs with 30 wins his second year. Jordan was still in college at an age LeBron was leading an NBA team to a winning record.


The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas failed to be one of the top 8 teams, while Jordan always did.

It took the acquisition a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY for Lebron/Zydrunas to be a top 8 team.. meanwhile, Jordan was a top 8 team without Pippen (with nothing)

Btw, Lebron was lucky that his 40-win teams missed the playoffs because they would've been swept by the 19' Warriors or 05' Pistons.. lebron is lucky he only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds

Btw, the 80's allowed most teams in the playoffs (16 of 23 teams) - so Jordan's worst teams were forced into the 8 seed against dynasties, while lebron's worst teams avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup because the league was bigger

[ShawkFactory]

dumb :oldlol:

why didnt mike get better seeds

Seriously.

Jordan’s second option was the same as Birds

[mehyaM24]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

great point. well not really, but since we only hear "scoring" from that guy WHAT ELSE is there to say? by his own logic boston and chicago were on equal footing :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

3ball getting destroyed by his owned logic.

[ShawkFactory]

The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas failed to be one of the top 8 teams, while Jordan always did.

It took the acquisition a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY for Lebron/Zydrunas to be a top 8 team.. meanwhile, Jordan was a top 8 team without Pippen (with nothing)

Btw, Lebron was lucky that his 40-win teams missed the playoffs because they would've been swept by the 19' Warriors or 05' Pistons.. lebron is lucky he only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds

Btw, the 80's allowed most teams in the playoffs (16 of 23 teams) - so Jordan's worst teams were forced into the 8 seed against dynasties, while lebron's worst teams avoided the 8 vs 1 matchup because the league was bigger

Why would they have been swept by the Pistons in 05? They took the 06 Pistons to 7 games.

[And1AllDay]

05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly Finals


^^^ So Jordan led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title

Ultimately, Jordan was an 8 seed without Pippen, while Lebron was a 9 seed with the East all-star center (05'), and then with Ingram/Rondo/Green/Kuzma (19')

Again - the Lebron/Zydrunas all-star duo were lottery, and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'.

Lebron sucks compared to Jordan and the facts always show this

imagine comparing big z to pippen

lost yo mind 3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[8Ball]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

Is there no one else??

[3ball]

Why would they have been swept by the Pistons in 05? They took the 06 Pistons to 7 games.


In order to make the 06' Playoffs, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added the future COY and acquired a 22/6/5 all-defender

That's how they went from a 9 seed to 4 seed

[Kiddlovesnets]

Bird said Jordan was God, so no

63 points and OT against a goat team with the cocaine circus

Nah MJ no need to argue that he was better than Bird in 1986 and 1987 to prove his GOAT case, while Lebron's fabricated GOAT case would be completely shattered if lebronstans and media admit that KD was better in 2017 and 2018. Lebron's fanboys lack confidence and self-esteem, so they are making all excuses in the finals series that Lebron lost. They are just sore losers, they brag about finals losses.
:lol

[And1AllDay]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

https://i.postimg.cc/Z58FFYSS/Is-there-no-one-else.gif

[ShawkFactory]

In order to make the 06' Playoffs, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added the future COY and acquired a 22/6/5 all-defender

That's how they went from a 9 seed to 4 seed

What does that have to do with the Cavs being swept in 05?

Poor guy. You don't remember that Larry Hughes only played 2 games in that series in 06 and scored 8 PPG on 33% in the 2 he played.

[3ball]

What does that have to do with the Cavs being swept in 05?

Poor guy. You don't remember that Larry Hughes only played 2 games in that series in 06 and scored 8 PPG on 33% in the 2 he played.


Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas to beat Arenas

That's hella weak

And the worst part is that Hughes played like Pippen alongside an elite jumpshooter Arenas (off-ball), while Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance made Hughes a useless spot-up player and shell..

If Lebron got the same production from Hughes that Arenas got (peak pippen production), he could've beaten the Spurs (assuming Lebron does better than 22 on 35%)

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas to beat Arenas

That's hella weak

And the worst part is that Hughes played like Pippen alongside an elite jumpshooter Arenas (off-ball), while Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance made Hughes a useless spot-up player and shell..

If Lebron got the same production from Hughes that Arenas got (peak pippen production), he could've beaten the Spurs (assuming Lebron does better than 22 on 35%)

You literally could not have been further from addressing the post that you just quoted :lol

[3ball]

You literally could not have been further from addressing the post that you just quoted :lol


No, your reading comp is just poor

He asked how the Cavs would get swept in 05' when they took the Pistons 7 in 06'

And I responded that the 06' Cavs were much improved, hence them going from 9 seed lottery to 4 seed - they did this by adding a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY... Otoh, the 06' Pistons were a shell and on swift decline.

[8Ball]

Lebron stole Hughes from Arenas to beat Arenas

That's hella weak

And the worst part is that Hughes played like Pippen alongside an elite jumpshooter Arenas (off-ball), while Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance made Hughes a useless spot-up player and shell..

If Lebron got the same production from Hughes that Arenas got (peak pippen production), he could've beaten the Spurs (assuming Lebron does better than 22 on 35%)

Jordan missed playoffs with Larry Hughes :roll:

[3ball]

Jordan missed playoffs with Larry Hughes :roll:


But the 40-year old MJ had higher PER than rookie Lebron a year later in 04', when lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center... Lolol

[Manny98]

Jordan missed playoffs with Larry Hughes :roll:

Whilst Lebron got to the finals with Larry Hughes :bowdown:

[FireDavidKahn]

Whilst Lebron got to the finals with Larry Hughes :bowdown:

GOAT shit right there

[3ball]

Whilst Lebron got to the finals with Larry Hughes :bowdown:


Hughes was a good player.. :confusedshrug:... it was considered a massive acquisition to get a 22/6/5 all-defender..

It's too bad a spotty-shooting ball-handler like Hughes fits better with an off-guard like Arenas than becoming a spot-up shooter alongside lebron.. if lebron got the pippen production from Hughes that Arenas got, the Cavs would've easily beaten the 07' Spurs (assuming lebron plays better than 22 on 36%)

Ultimately, Lebron entered the playoffs with a 2-time all-star center, the future COY, a 22/5/5 acquisition, and a top defense/rebounding team - that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while young Jordan had no help in a conference that required a super-team to win.

[2much_knowledge]

Himself lol. Maybe he wanted an early vacation

[3ball]

Himself lol. Maybe he wanted an early vacation


What's worse - losing in the 1st Round with 8 seeds, or losing in the 2nd Round with high seeds and league favorites (06', 08', 10')

Jordan carried a legit lottery cast (a team that was lottery the prior year) to the 8 seed, while Lebron missed the 8 seed with lottery casts in 04', 05', and 19'.. he only made the playoffs with developed, high seeds

[ShawkFactory]

No, your reading comp is just poor

He asked how the Cavs would get swept in 05' when they took the Pistons 7 in 06'

And I responded that the 06' Cavs were much improved, hence them going from 9 seed lottery to 4 seed - they did this by adding a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY... Otoh, the 06' Pistons were a shell and on swift decline.

But you ignored that Larry Hughes (the improvement) didn’t even play in the 06 series.

Therefore the 05 and 06 Cavs wouldn’t have been much different in a series vs the pistons. Other than lebron being of legal drinking age and better himself.

[kawhileonard2]

Nobody beat LeBron in the 1st round.

Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics. Missed playoffs in 2004, 2005 and 2019 with winniest organization in NBA History.

[3ball]

But you ignored that Larry Hughes (the improvement) didn’t even play in the 06 series.

Therefore the 05 and 06 Cavs wouldn’t have been much different in a series vs the pistons. Other than lebron being of legal drinking age and better himself.


06' Zydrunas..... 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

06' Gooden........ 19.5 PER.. 0.184 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round
06' Varejao........ 17.0 PER.. 0.135 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round


The 2006 Cavs were a developed, high seed with an all-star duo, a top rebounding team, and too many productive veterans to name..

So they didn't really need Hughes, and the Pistons weren't even a top 5 SRS team - who cares about carry-jobs over non-elite teams? Everyone does that... Ultimately, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs over good teams is because he's poor at the additional contested jumpshooting required and therefore needs elite 1st option sidekicks to hit tough shots and often match/lead the scoring (11', 16', 20' Playoffs)

[8Ball]

But the 40-year old MJ had higher PER than rookie Lebron a year later in 04', when lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center... Lolol


Hughes was a good player.

Jordan with Larry Hughes = No playoffs.
LeBron with Larry Hughes = finals.

:roll:


Jordan with Larry Hughes misses the playoffs? What kind of cancer ball is this?:lol

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan with Larry Hughes = No playoffs.
LeBron with Larry Hughes = finals.

:roll:

Wade with Shaq = title
Kobe with Shaq = 3 titles

Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round
:roll:

Jordan with HOF in olympics in Ewing Gold medal
Lebron with HOF and multiple league and finals mvp in Duncan in olympics bronze medal :roll:

[And1AllDay]

Jordan with Larry Hughes = No playoffs.
LeBron with Larry Hughes = finals.

:roll:


Jordan with Larry Hughes misses the playoffs? What kind of cancer ball is this?:lol


issa wrap

:dancin

[Axe]

3ball used to say that doug collins is a better coach than phil jackson ever was but couldn't even explain why the former couldn't lead the 'goat' to a playoff berth with the wizards. :confusedshrug:

[Bronbron23]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

Holy shit this dude just said Woolridge is as good as McHale. This mj haters are taking trolling to a new level

[ShawkFactory]

06' Zydrunas..... 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense.. nearly made Finals

06' Gooden........ 19.5 PER.. 0.184 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round
06' Varejao........ 17.0 PER.. 0.135 WS/48.. #14 team defense.. 2nd Round


The 2006 Cavs were a developed, high seed with an all-star duo, a top rebounding team, and too many productive veterans to name..

So they didn't really need Hughes, and the Pistons weren't even a top 5 SRS team - who cares about carry-jobs over non-elite teams? Everyone does that... Ultimately, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs over good teams is because he's poor at the additional contested jumpshooting required and therefore needs elite 1st option sidekicks to hit tough shots and often match/lead the scoring (11', 16', 20' Playoffs)

All of those players were on the Cavs in 2005. So again, if the same cast took the Pistons to 7 in 06, why would they just automatically have been swept the year before?

[mehyaM24]

Holy shit this dude just said Woolridge is as good as McHale. This mj haters are taking trolling to a new level

no different than the idiot comparing varejao and gooden to pippen. funny how you failed to point that out. mj stans and their fake outrage lol

[ShawkFactory]

Holy shit this dude just said Woolridge is as good as McHale. This mj haters are taking trolling to a new level

Have you like...read this thread? Or any 3ball thread?

You lack of awareness is crazy.

[Bronbron23]

no different than the idiot comparing varejao and gooden to pippen. funny how you failed to point that out. mj stans and their fake outrage lol

Didn't see that but that's just as bad if not worse

[Bronbron23]

Have you like...read this thread? Or any 3ball thread?

You lack of awareness is crazy.

I can't read to much of 3balls shit because he's to much mj and hates to much on pip. It's irrelevant though. What you said is dumb as hell. Just because he said some dumb shit dosn't mean you have to

[ShawkFactory]

I can't read to much of 3balls shit because he's to much mj and hates to much on pip. It's irrelevant though. What you said is dumb as hell. Just because he said some dumb shit dosn't mean you have to

I’m simply throwing his logic back at him.

I do not believe that Woolridge was actually as good as McHale..

[3ball]

I’m simply throwing his logic back at him.

I do not believe that Woolridge was actually as good as McHale..


It's unfortunate that Jordan played with Woolridge in the 80's East when a super-team was required to win the conference.

MJ certainly would've won chips with Woolridge if they played in the parity 90's when expansion had spread the talent around evenly, so only 2 stars were required to win - assuming MJ/Woolridge had time to grow, they would've won every year in the 90's just like MJ/Pippen

[And1AllDay]

i googled it and saw larry bird and terry cummings

[RogueBorg]

The Bulls got swept by the Celtics in 1986 obviously.

Birds second option (McHale) scored 21.3 ppg on the season and Jordan’s second option (Woolridge) did 20.7.

That is basically equal help and Bird SWEPT him.

No contest as to who was better.

You know nothing about basketball in comparing Orlando Woolridge to Kevin McHale. There were 5 Hall of Famers on the '86 Celtics.

[ShawkFactory]

You know nothing about basketball in comparing Orlando Woolridge to Kevin McHale. There were 5 Hall of Famers on the '86 Celtics.

I can compare surface level numbers. That's all that is required in an argument when 3ball is involved. Hell, its all that is acknowledged much less required. Why actually try to discuss the game when you can pull out a couple numbers with no context and call it a day?

If JR Smith can equal Scottie Pippen because of an 18/8 4 game series in 2015, why can't Orlando Woolridge equal Kevin McHale based on their scoring?

If you're trying to actually talk about basketball and not simply manipulate numbers and logic then any thread with 3ball in it is not for you.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I can compare surface level numbers. That's all that is required in an argument when 3ball is involved. Hell, its all that is acknowledged much less required. Why actually try to discuss the game when you can pull out a couple numbers with no context and call it a day?

If JR Smith can equal Scottie Pippen because of an 18/8 4 game series in 2015, why can't Orlando Woolridge equal Kevin McHale based on their scoring?

If you're trying to actually talk about basketball and not simply manipulate numbers and logic then any thread with 3ball in it is not for you.
Well you could quickly rebut whatever inane assertion he is making at the moment, then ignore his subsequent nonsequiturs, and repetitive ramblings and instead talk about the topic in the cases where there's actually something interesting to talk about. Like his Lakers have the greatest front court ever thread actually is a topic that someone interested in basketball history can use as a spring board for an interesting conversation. Just ignore the agenda, even the original poster and talk about the great historical front courts. Bonus points for lengthy exploration of two front courts not involving LeBron or Jordan so the agenda is completely ignored by the conversation.

[ShawkFactory]

Well you could quickly rebut whatever inane assertion he is making at the moment, then ignore his subsequent nonsequiturs, and repetitive ramblings and instead talk about the topic in the cases where there's actually something interesting to talk about. Like his Lakers have the greatest front court ever thread actually is a topic that someone interested in basketball history can use as a spring board for an interesting conversation. Just ignore the agenda, even the original poster and talk about the great historical front courts. Bonus points for lengthy exploration of two front courts not involving LeBron or Jordan so the agenda is completely ignored by the conversation.

I don't necessarily disagree, but actual conversations are typically derailed very quickly in a thread like this.

As a starter...people associate Lebron with SF, but he has been the actual listed point guard for the Lakers for 2 years. And he performs offensively as a PG in almost every way, other than an occasional touch on the block should there be a mismatch off of a switch. But Magic and other larger PGs have historically done this as well.

I'm not sure that it's correct to include him as a member of their front court.

[TheCorporation]

You know nothing about basketball in comparing Orlando Woolridge to Kevin McHale. There were 5 Hall of Famers on the '86 Celtics.

Wrong.

According to 3ball metrics all that matters in basketball is ppg. Sorry.

[3ball]

If JR Smith can equal Scottie Pippen because of an 18/8





No one said JR Smith = Pippen

But he did reach Pippen's caliber in that 1 series because Pippen's caliber is a low bar that even garbage players can occasionally reach

In many ways, Smith's 18/8 on 67% true shooting is actually better than Pippen ever played because Pippen never spread the floor and provided massive driving lanes like JR did in that series... JR's spacing was the cure to the "Jordan Rules" that Pippen couldn't provide (the bum couldn't hit the broadside of a barn) .

[8Ball]

Jordan with Larry Hughes = No playoffs.
LeBron with Larry Hughes = finals.

:roll:


Jordan with Larry Hughes misses the playoffs? What kind of cancer ball is this?:lol

Is there no one else?

I will consider this settled debate.

[kawhileonard2]

Wade with Shaq = title
Kobe with Shaq = 3 titles

Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round
:roll:

Jordan with HOF in olympics in Ewing Gold medal
Lebron with HOF and multiple league and finals mvp in Duncan in olympics bronze medal :roll:

Anyone else here?

I think I settled this already.

[8Ball]

Duncan led that team in his prime and failed? Blame goes on Duncan as the best player on that team.

62 wins + getting to the 2nd round with Shaq >>> Missing playoffs and ending up in the lottery with the legendary Larry Hughes.

2010 LeBron = More impressive than anything Kawhi Leonard ever did in his entire career, combined.

NEXT.

[Axe]

I can compare surface level numbers. That's all that is required in an argument when 3ball is involved. Hell, its all that is acknowledged much less required. Why actually try to discuss the game when you can pull out a couple numbers with no context and call it a day?

If JR Smith can equal Scottie Pippen because of an 18/8 4 game series in 2015, why can't Orlando Woolridge equal Kevin McHale based on their scoring?

If you're trying to actually talk about basketball and not simply manipulate numbers and logic then any thread with 3ball in it is not for you.
Any king kong bran haters would support 3ball's agenda. Well, oftentimes.

[TheCorporation]

Jordan with Larry Hughes = No playoffs.
LeBron with Larry Hughes = finals.

:roll:


Jordan with Larry Hughes misses the playoffs? What kind of cancer ball is this?:lol

Guys? Is anyone going to refute me?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Guys? Is anyone going to refute me?

Its a stupid argument that aint even worth discussing. If you need anything, read this:

Kobe with Shaq = title
Wade with Shaq = title
Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round

[hateraid]

Its a stupid argument that aint even worth discussing. If you need anything, read this:

Kobe with Shaq = title
Wade with Shaq = title
Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round

That argument is as useless as the Larry Hughes one. Shaq in the brink of retirement doesn't mean shit. Shaq joins the Cavs 05-10 Cleveland would have 5 Championships.

[8Ball]

Its a stupid argument that aint even worth discussing. If you need anything, read this:

Kobe with Shaq = title
Wade with Shaq = title
Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round

Jordan and Larry Hughes = Lottery

[8Ball]

That argument is as useless as the Larry Hughes one. Shaq in the brink of retirement doesn't mean shit. Shaq joins the Cavs 05-10 Cleveland would have 5 Championships.

Kiddlovesnets doesn't even understand the Larry Hughes argument. Follow along Tuesdays.

3ball uses Larry Hughes to denigrate LeBron.

So we use Larry Hughes to denigrate Jordan and humiliate his argument.

QED

[Kiddlovesnets]

Kiddlovesnets doesn't even understand the Larry Hughes argument. Follow along Tuesdays.

3ball uses Larry Hughes to denigrate LeBron.

So we use Larry Hughes to denigrate Jordan and humiliate his argument.

QED

You forgot MJ was 40 years old when he played with Hughs lol, what a joke. But anyway prime MJ would turn Larry Hughs into Scottie Pippen, while Lebron would make Pippen his own Hughs. This is the major difference between the two, Lebron destroys his teammates with bron ball and then his fans complains that his teammates are weak.

[hateraid]

You forgot MJ was 40 years old when he played with Hughs lol, what a joke. But anyway prime MJ would turn Larry Hughs into Scottie Pippen, while Lebron would make Pippen his own Hughs. This is the major difference between the two, Lebron destroys his teammates with bron ball and then his fans complains that his teammates are weak.

The point went right over your head.

[hateraid]

Kiddlovesnets doesn't even understand the Larry Hughes argument. Follow along Tuesdays.

3ball uses Larry Hughes to denigrate LeBron.

So we use Larry Hughes to denigrate Jordan and humiliate his argument.

QED

He's studied under 3ball very well. He seems to enjoy being his lap dog.

[Kiddlovesnets]

The point went right over your head.

Nah anyone who brings up MJ's wizards years are just sole losers who no longer have valid points to make, they've lost the argument. Imagine the Timberwolves select Lebron Jr and Lebron goes to play in Minnesota and missed 2-3 years of playoffs, should we hold anything against him? Id say no, but some misinformed posters surely will.

[hateraid]

Nah anyone who brings up MJ's wizards years are just sole losers who no longer have valid points to make, they've lost the argument. Imagine the Timberwolves select Lebron Jr and Lebron goes to play in Minnesota and missed 2-3 years of playoffs, should we hold anything against him? Id say no, but some misinformed posters surely will.

Again, the point went right over your head

[hateraid]

Kiddlovesnets, the point is you Jordan stans make up completely irrational statements, specially about Lebron, to boost your obsessed Jordan legacy, that people intentionally say irrational things back just to troll you and point out how stupid you look.

But that point always seem to go over your head, along with other Jordan stans

[Kiddlovesnets]

Nah if you cant see the idiocy in bringing up MJ's wizards career, theres nothing much for me to say about it. Whenever someone uses MJ's wizards years as argument, I know he has lost the argument and hes mad that he has no valid point to make.
:lol

[hateraid]

Nah if you cant see the idiocy in bringing up MJ's wizards career, theres nothing much for me to say about it. Whenever someone uses MJ's wizards years as argument, I know he has lost the argument and hes mad that he has no valid point to make.
:lol

You're lack of awareness is uncanny. I'm literally describing what's happening and you're too oblivious to pick it up.
Jordan stans = too dumb to realize they're being trolled for making irrational posts

[Kiddlovesnets]

You're lack of awareness is uncanny. I'm literally describing what's happening and you're too oblivious to pick it up.
Jordan stans = too dumb to realize they're being trolled for making irrational posts

And Lebronstans are too dumb to realize that their idol is nowhere close to MJ, he has to surpass Kareem and Magic first.

[hateraid]

And Lebronstans are too dumb to realize that their idol is nowhere close to MJ, he has to surpass Kareem and Magic first.

It's stupid posts like this is why you Jordan stans get trolled.
Again, your lack of awareness is uncanny.

[8Ball]

3ball argument = LeBron couldn't win with Larry Hughes whom was as good as Pippen.

8ball counter = Jordan couldn't make playoffs with the same Larry Hughes.

Kiddlovesnets = I still don't understand what is happening.


The fact that I have to spell this out to you shows me you are low IQ. Did you even go to college?

[8Ball]

He's studied under 3ball very well. He seems to enjoy being his lap dog.


Again, the point went right over your head


I have yet to meet 1 Jordan stan that is semi intelligent.

It seems to go with the player type. Low IQ humans like low IQ Carmelo Anthony basketball which is score a lot.

[Hey Yo]

You forgot MJ was 40 years old when he played with Hughs lol, what a joke. But anyway prime MJ would turn Larry Hughs into Scottie Pippen, while Lebron would make Pippen his own Hughs. This is the major difference between the two, Lebron destroys his teammates with bron ball and then his fans complains that his teammates are weak.
So why didn't MJ do that with Kukoc or Armstrong or Kerr or Paxson etc....

[Hey Yo]

Nah if you cant see the idiocy in bringing up MJ's wizards career, theres nothing much for me to say about it. Whenever someone uses MJ's wizards years as argument, I know he has lost the argument and hes mad that he has no valid point to make.
:lol
It was only his 14th and 15th season. What's the big deal? Players play that long all the time.

[Ainosterhaspie]

It makes as much sense to bring up MJ's Wizard years as it does to act like LeBron failing to take a sub 20 win team to the playoffs his rookie year straight out of high school, or credit MJ for making the playoffs with 30 wins and while having missed most of the season.

Both LeBron and MJ came into the league with really bad casts their first few years, and with significant personal development yet to happen. Criticism of either for lack of team success in his first two or three years is absurd.

MJ making the playoffs his first three years with losing records each time wasn't an accomplishment, and getting curbstomped by the best team in the league isn't a black mark on his resume. He showed us his pending greatness, but you can't win without quality support. As soon as he got it, he started winning. 1-9 makes sense as a retort to "James missed the playoffs his first two seasons", but only as a way of contradicting the absurd with the absurd to highlight the absurdity. It isn't a rational critique of Jordan.

[3ball]

It makes as much sense to bring up MJ's Wizard years as it does to act like LeBron failing to take a sub 20 win team to the playoffs his rookie year straight out of high school, or credit MJ for making the playoffs with 30 wins and while having missed most of the season.

Both LeBron and MJ came into the league with really bad casts their first few years, and with significant personal development yet to happen. Criticism of either for lack of team success in his first two or three years is absurd.

MJ making the playoffs his first three years with losing records each time wasn't an accomplishment, and getting curbstomped by the best team in the league isn't a black mark on his resume. He showed us his pending greatness, but you can't win without quality support. As soon as he got it, he started winning. 1-9 makes sense as a retort to "James missed the playoffs his first two seasons", but only as a way of contradicting the absurd with the absurd to highlight the absurdity. It isn't a rational critique of Jordan.



The 90' Bulls had less help on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs:


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 defense.. nearly won title


TLDR: MJ nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs - aka he led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title.. aka no one did more with less than MJ

[hateraid]

The 90' Bulls had less help on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs:


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 defense.. nearly won title


TLDR: MJ nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs - aka he led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title.. aka no one did more with less than MJ

Do you copy and paste this to respond to any and every post?

[Ainosterhaspie]

The 90' Bulls had less help on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs:


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 defense.. lottery
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 defense.. nearly won title


TLDR: MJ nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs - aka he led the #19 defense and a sidekick with worse offense than 05' Zydrunas to within a migraine of the title.. aka no one did more with less than MJ

What the **** does that have to do with what I said? Your complete inability to comprehend what people are saying, and compulsion to throw out random BS in response is a big part of why your are a punch line in this forum. I was defending MJ in that post and not making any kind of argument for LeBron over him, yet you have to paste in some random irrelevant stats for some unknown reason.

And why are you comparing peak MJ to young LeBron at an age MJ wasn't even in the league yet?? I should hope peak MJ can do more with less than 20 year old LeBron. If you think they should be the same at those points in there career you are arguing that LeBron is better than MJ. I know that's not the point you're wanting to make, so try pointing out that the 2011 Heat were a better supporting cast than the 1990 Bulls. There you'll at least be making a rational argument.

[ShawkFactory]

The 85 Bulls had Woolridge going for 23/6 on 61% TS, 1.5 BPM and 2.5 VORP. Also had the highest ORTg on the team. Yes, above Jordan.

Big Z in 05 was 17/9 on 55% TS, -0.2 BPM and 1.2 VORP. While Lebron had the highest ORTg on the team. Way higher than Z (114 to 110).

Summary: Jordan had FAR greater help in 85 than Lebron did in 05 but the Cavs still won 4 more games.

[hateraid]

What the **** does that have to do with what I said? Your complete inability to comprehend what people are saying, and compulsion to throw out random BS in response is a big part of why your are a punch line in this forum. I was defending MJ in that post and not making any kind of argument for LeBron over him, yet you have to paste in some random irrelevant stats for some unknown reason.


He doesn't get it. It's bizarre. He tries to validate it by saying he's played Div 1.

[3ball]

The 85 Bulls had Woolridge going for 23/6 on 61% TS, 1.5 BPM and 2.5 VORP. Also had the highest ORTg on the team. Yes, above Jordan.

Big Z in 05 was 17/9 on 55% TS, -0.2 BPM and 1.2 VORP. While Lebron had the highest ORTg on the team. Way higher than Z (114 to 110).

Summary: Jordan had FAR greater help in 85 than Lebron did in 05 but the Cavs still won 4 more games.


Big Z was a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), while Woolridge was nowhere near a top player at his position, and the 85' Bulls had the #20 defense, so they had less help on both sides of the ball.

More importantly, a super-team was required to win the 80's East, compared to 2-star teams in the 90's and 1-star teams in the 00's

[ShawkFactory]

Big Z was a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), while Woolridge was nowhere near a top player at his position, and the 85' Bulls had the#20 defense lol


The Bulls total SRS was 14 of 23 teams, or the 40th percentile. The 2005 Cavs were 15 of 30, so the 50th percentile.

The 85 Bulls had Woolridge going for 23/6 on 61% TS, 1.5 BPM and 2.5 VORP. Also had the highest ORTg on the team. Yes, above Jordan.

Big Z in 05 was 17/9 on 55% TS, -0.2 BPM and 1.2 VORP. While Lebron had the highest ORTg on the team. Way higher than Z (114 to 110).

Summary: Jordan had FAR greater help in 85 than Lebron did but failed to do as much with his team.

[3ball]

The Bulls total SRS was 14 of 23 teams, or the 40th percentile. The 2005 Cavs were 15 of 30, so the 50th percentile.

The 85 Bulls had Woolridge going for 23/6 on 61% TS, 1.5 BPM and 2.5 VORP. Also had the highest ORTg on the team. Yes, above Jordan.

Big Z in 05 was 17/9 on 55% TS, -0.2 BPM and 1.2 VORP. While Lebron had the highest ORTg on the team. Way higher than Z (114 to 110).

Summary: Jordan had FAR greater help in 85 than Lebron did but failed to do as much with his team.


Again, the 80's East was stacked, so Woolridge's stats were nothing and not an advantage, whereas the 00's East was worst-ever, so Big Z was tremendous help and big advantage (all-star)

A super-team was required to win the 80's East, compared to 2-star teams in the 90's and 1-star teams in the 00's

[3ball]

.

And why are you comparing peak MJ to young LeBron at an age MJ wasn't even in the league yet??





The 05' Cavs were Lebron's worst team, so 90' Jordan basically won the title with lebron's worst team.

And since Lebron's worst team was more productive than the 90' Bulls, we can assume his developed, high seeds or league favorites from 06-10' compared well to the 90's Bulls championship teams

[BigShotBob]

Lebron could've made the playoffs in 2004 with 38 wins, the Celtics won 36 games and were the 8th seed. Instead Lebron won 35 games and missed the playoffs, and some fans are happy about this 'cause he avoided a first round sweep by the 61 wins Pacers in 2004(the Pacers swept Celtics in the first round).
:lol

All that needs to be said.

[ShawkFactory]

Again, the 80's East was stacked, so Woolridge's stats were nothing and not an advantage, whereas the 00's East was worst-ever, so Big Z was tremendous help and big advantage (all-star)

A super-team was required to win the 80's East, compared to 2-star teams in the 90's and 1-star teams in the 00's
Who said they should have won the East?

Only 3 small forwards scored more than Woolridge in the East: King, Bird, and Dominque.

And none of them did it as efficiently: 59 TS% for Bird and King, 51 TS% for Dominque. As you know, Woolridge had a 61 TS%. And his impact numbers compare favorably with those other guys as well, aside from Bird.

So Jordan had the most efficient high volume scoring SF in the conference who was on par in other areas, but only managed the 14th SRS of 23 total teams. Again I'm not faulting them for not winning the East because of course a super team was required to beat the Celtics. But to go below .500...with that help? Yikes.

Luckily for Big Z, he had a teammate (Lebron) who not only led the team in ORTG (something Woolridge had to do himself), but led the entire NBA in VORP. So of course that team was able to go above .500.

[8Ball]

Again, the 80's East was stacked, so Woolridge's stats were nothing and not an advantage, whereas the 00's East was worst-ever, so Big Z was tremendous help and big advantage (all-star)

A super-team was required to win the 80's East, compared to 2-star teams in the 90's and 1-star teams in the 00's

Bulls made playoffs with 30 wins in the 80s.

Soft era.

[3ball]

Who said they should have won the East?

Only 3 small forwards scored more than Woolridge in the East: King, Bird, and Dominque.

And none of them did it as efficiently: 59 TS% for Bird and King, 51 TS% for Dominque. As you know, Woolridge had a 61 TS%. And his impact numbers compare favorably with those other guys as well, aside from Bird.

So Jordan had the most efficient high volume scoring SF in the conference who was on par in other areas, but only managed the 14th SRS of 23 total teams. Again I'm not faulting them for not winning the East because of course a super team was required to beat the Celtics. But to go below .500...with that help? Yikes.

Luckily for Big Z, he had a teammate (Lebron) who not only led the team in ORTG (something Woolridge had to do himself), but led the entire NBA in VORP. So of course that team was able to go above .500.


Woolridge meant nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it, but I'm sure he would've won with mj in the 90's, where only 2 stars were required to win

Ultimately, Jordan nearly won the title with a cast that was less productive than lebron's 05' cast (the worst team lebron had), whereas lebron needed a much improved roster to compete with the top teams

[Kiddlovesnets]

It was only his 14th and 15th season. What's the big deal? Players play that long all the time.

So what? He was 40 years old, are you that dumb? The age matters as much as mileage if not more.

[ShawkFactory]

Woolridge meant nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it, but I'm sure he would've won with mj in the 90's, where only 2 stars were required to win

Ultimately, Jordan nearly won the title with a cast that was less productive than lebron's 05' cast (the worst team lebron had), whereas lebron needed a much improved roster to compete with the top teams

Again, no one expects that Jordan should have won the East, as it would have taken a super team to beat the Celtics. I’ve said this three times now.

But to finish in just the 40th percentile of teams with the most efficient volume scoring SF in the conference, with similar impact numbers as the league superstars? Yikes

[3ball]

Again, no one expects that Jordan should have won the East, as it would have taken a super team to beat the Celtics. I’ve said this three times now.

But to finish in just the 40th percentile of teams with the most efficient volume scoring SF in the conference, with similar impact numbers as the league superstars? Yikes


lebron basically did the same thing with a player that was superior relative to his comp (all-star).. Lebron failed to be a top 8 team with the East all-star center.

Bottom line - 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a cast that was worse on both sides of the ball than the worst team lebron had (05' Cavs), while lebron needed 1 seeds and super-teams to compete with championship comp

[Kiddlovesnets]

while lebron needed 1 seeds and super-teams to compete with championship comp

Problem is that despite colluding and making superteams, Lebron somehow went only 4/9 in the NBA finals even if we don’t count 2007. It’s not even like collusion and superteams were enough to guarantee Lebron winning titles, it simply increases the chance to below 50% anyway.

[ShawkFactory]

lebron basically did the same thing with a player that was superior relative to his comp (all-star).. Lebron failed to be a top 8 team with the East all-star center.

Bottom line - 90' Jordan nearly won the title with a cast that was worse on both sides of the ball than the worst team lebron had (05' Cavs), while lebron needed 1 seeds and super-teams to compete with championship comp

Jordan went 38-44 with the best high volume scoring SF in the league with impact numbers similar to some of greatest stars of the game.

Lebron won a ring with no all stars (not top 3 at their position in the conference) against a team with 3...in a stronger conference no less.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Lebron won a ring with no all stars(not top 3 at their position in the conference) against a team with 3...in a stronger conference no less.

So whose fault was it that lebrons team had no all star except for himself? Wade/Bosh were top 10 players in 2010 while Irving/Love were both all stars before 2014. Just because Lebron ball downgraded Lebron’s all star teammates into role players, doesn’t mean they ain’t good to be all stars. Lebron has lower ceiling compared to MJ mostly because the latter elevated his all star teammates, while Lebron held them back.

[kawhileonard2]

Its a stupid argument that aint even worth discussing. If you need anything, read this:

Kobe with Shaq = title
Wade with Shaq = title
Lebron with Shaq = 2nd round

Shaq had a league mvp, 3 finals mvp, won a 3 peat. Lebron had none of that. Only MJ has done that apart from Shaq.

[kawhileonard2]

Duncan led that team in his prime and failed? Blame goes on Duncan as the best player on that team.

62 wins + getting to the 2nd round with Shaq >>> Missing playoffs and ending up in the lottery with the legendary Larry Hughes.

2010 LeBron = More impressive than anything Kawhi Leonard ever did in his entire career, combined.

NEXT.

Lebron lost with HCA in round 2 to Rajon Rondo. Kawhi won a title for the franchise that drafted him. Lebron had to leave to join forces with a proven winner to get a title. And then needed another superteam to get a title due to a suspension in going back.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron lost with HCA in round 2 to Rajon Rondo. Kawhi won a title for the franchise that drafted him. Lebron had to leave to join forces with a proven winner to get a title. And then needed another superteam to get a title due to a suspension in going back.

And Kawhi blew a 3-1 lead to Will Barton.

[Axe]

And Kawhi blew a 3-1 lead to Will Barton.
Don't you mean 7'1 brian windhorst

[kawhileonard2]

And Kawhi blew a 3-1 lead to Will Barton.

Rather have that in a bubble then embarrass America in the Olympics.

[red1]

very boring being a member of the james gang.



he's just too much better than all of the competition.

[kawhileonard2]

very boring being a member of the james gang.



he's just too much better than all of the competition.

1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted you means too good. Curry did that than that, Kawhi, Dirk, Duncan in this era alone.

[red1]

1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted you means too good. Curry did that than that, Kawhi, Dirk, Duncan in this era alone.

yeah considering the context it actually IS impressive


was the underdog every single year he made the finals with the cavs. unlike the other players you mentioned. and he STILL got it done. :oldlol:

[red1]

they cant say shit :oldlol:




https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/5b/8f/dd5b8fb284c93a75ccfc0810052dc795.jpg

[Axe]

1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted you means too good. Curry did that than that, Kawhi, Dirk, Duncan in this era alone.
Lol kawhi and dirk didn't even win any rings for the respective teams that drafted them but it's no surprise that we have freaks here who start to cheer back for the king especially once they see the teams they root for are performing horribly rn.

[red1]

https://www.si.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4MTk2NjAzOTcwMzMyNTcz/lebron-james-cavaliers-jersey.jpg
https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/sites/cavaliers/files/2016-nba-champions-splash.jpg

[light]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

https://media.tenor.com/images/f7354b8c66dcf774a0cd75d1806e0d56/tenor.gif

[ShawkFactory]

Rather have that in a bubble then embarrass America in the Olympics.

No you wouldn’t :lol

[kawhileonard2]

No you wouldn’t :lol

I would. Don't want to embarrass America.

[kawhileonard2]

yeah considering the context it actually IS impressive


was the underdog every single year he made the finals with the cavs. unlike the other players you mentioned. and he STILL got it done. :oldlol:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

Was favorite and still needed a suspension and his other star to outplay the #1 star on the other team. Anyone would win a title like that and probably in 4-5 games at that not 7 games.

[ShawkFactory]

I would. Don't want to embarrass America.

So you’d trade the 2014 Spurs ring for the gold medal in 2004 eh?

[kawhileonard2]

So you’d trade the 2014 Spurs ring for the gold medal in 2004 eh?

Yes America first. Thus the reason to bring European, Asian basketball as well.

[kawhileonard2]

You never won't a bronze medal in basketball in the Olympics period.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes America first. Thus the reason to bring European, Asian basketball as well.

Well you're probably pretty upset with Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, TMac, Kidd Ben Wallace then huh?

[kawhileonard2]

Well you're probably pretty upset with Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, KG, TMac, Kidd Ben Wallace then huh?

Why don't people come here and talk that stuff

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

[ShawkFactory]

Why don't people come here and talk that stuff

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Because KD hitting 2 big shots playing with house money doesn't have anything to do with your value of the Olympics in 2004.

I'd go there to talk that stuff if it meant you not making or participating in any other thread ever though.

[kawhileonard2]

Because KD hitting 2 big shots playing with house money doesn't have anything to do with your value of the Olympics in 2004.

I'd go there to talk that stuff if it meant you not making or participating in any other thread ever though.

Lebron was playing with house money 2009-2010 in Cleveland playing with Ben Wallace and Shaq and then in 2011-2014 in Miami and 2015-2018 in Cleveland and 2020 and 2021 when he stacked the deck.

Let's finish conversation over there though.

[Kiddlovesnets]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

Was favorite and still needed a suspension and his other star to outplay the #1 star on the other team. Anyone would win a title like that and probably in 4-5 games at that not 7 games.

This... Lebron took pre-season favorites/most talented teams to underachieve in regular season and/or conference playoffs, so suddenly he became an underdog in the NBA Finals. So if he won, he won against all odds. If he lost, he was underdog anyway. How cunning he is, except that the pre-season odds are available all over the internet and we can see the myth that Lebron won more with less was nothing but a lie.

[red1]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

Was favorite and still needed a suspension and his other star to outplay the #1 star on the other team. Anyone would win a title like that and probably in 4-5 games at that not 7 games.

learn how to read.


like I said - he was the underdog every year in the finals.

[8Ball]

I keep Googling all of LeBron's first round losses but all I keep finding is 1-9 and Terry Cummings

Nobody beat Lebron in the 1st round unlike Jordan.

[Kiddlovesnets]

learn how to read.


like I said - he was the underdog every year in the finals.

It doesnt matter though. Lebron taking title favorites team in pre-season to underdogs in the finals, simply indicates that hes underachieving in regular season/conference playoffs with superior teams, and winning as underdog wouldnt help anyway. Pre-season odds are far more accurate representation of each team's talent level on their rosters, see this thread for reference:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?491445-Season-by-Season-analysis-MJ-vs-Lebron-on-pre-season-odds-amp-finishes

[8Ball]

Pre season odds are useless. They don't factor in how a team will perform chemistry wise nor do they consider injuries that happen.

Pre playoff odds are much better representation.

You can reference to this post for future educational purposes when discussing useless pre season odds. :roll:

[Kiddlovesnets]

Pre season odds are useless. They don't factor in how a team will perform chemistry wise nor do they consider injuries that happen.

Pre playoff odds are much better representation.

You can reference to this post for future educational purposes when discussing useless pre season odds. :roll:

Pre-season odds are highly useful as they represent the raw talent level on each team. Injuries do happen, but only once did Lebron's title chance been affected by injuries(2015) so it still cant explain the other losses he had.

Team Chemistry? Excuse me, this is Lebron's own fault that his team always lacked chemistry and couldnt perform up to the talent level on paper. The FO did all they could, Lebron always had enough help but wasnt able to utilize it due to chemistry problem and Lebron ball holding back his all-star teammates. You cant turn all-star teammates into glorified role players, and then complain that they aint good enough. Pre-season odds not considering team chemistry is exactly why it is the best metric to measure how good a team is, or precisely, how good a team is supposed to be.

If Lebron indeed had a GOAT case, he should have been able to adjust his playing style to make sure his team gets the best out of it like MJ did with Pippen. But Lebron never did, he remains ball-dominant and it hurts the team's chemistry and title winning chance.

[ShawkFactory]

Pre season odds are useless. They don't factor in how a team will perform chemistry wise nor do they consider injuries that happen.

Pre playoff odds are much better representation.

You can reference to this post for future educational purposes when discussing useless pre season odds. :roll:

There's also the big one in that preseason odds, or odds in general, are based on how people are likely to bet...not on what is likely to happen.

The name "Lebron James" skews these things. Doesn't have anything to do with which superstar has the most talented teammates

[Kiddlovesnets]

The name "Lebron James" skews these things. Doesn't have anything to do with which superstar has the most talented teammates

Not exactly though, Lebron colluded with superstar and all-star teammates and yet somehow managed to win less than 50% of the finals. This is unacceptable for any all time greats to make their GOAT cases. I personally dont see any issue with Lebron colluding, but once he decided to collude the excuse that his team aint good enough or opponents being too strong becomes completely invalid.

[ShawkFactory]

Not exactly though, Lebron colluded with superstar and all-star teammates and yet somehow managed to win less than 50% of the finals. This is unacceptable for any all time greats to make their GOAT cases. I personally dont see any issue with Lebron colluding, but once he decided to collude the excuse that his team aint good enough or opponents being too strong becomes completely invalid.

So now we're not on odds anymore :lol

Being the biggest name in basketball skews odds. Hopefully I don't have to explain to you why.

[Hey Yo]

Not exactly though, Lebron colluded with superstar and all-star teammates and yet somehow managed to win less than 50% of the finals. This is unacceptable for any all time greats to make their GOAT cases. I personally dont see any issue with Lebron colluding, but once he decided to collude the excuse that his team aint good enough or opponents being too strong becomes completely invalid.
Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

What did LeBron do illegally?

David Stern:
“Players are going to talk, they’re going to do that,″ Stern said from an owners meeting in Las Vegas. “But the club did nothing wrong as far as we know. No formal complaints were levied at our Board of Governors meeting.″

“Our players are totally within their rights to seek employment with any other team,” Stern said. “That’s something we embrace. That’s our system.

“Miami did a pretty good job of clearing out cap space and putting together a plan.”

https://www.statesman.com/article/20120901/NEWS/309007223

Back to the drawing board for you Kidd.

[Airupthere]

Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

What did LeBron do illegally?

David Stern:
“Players are going to talk, they’re going to do that,″ Stern said from an owners meeting in Las Vegas. “But the club did nothing wrong as far as we know. No formal complaints were levied at our Board of Governors meeting.″

“Our players are totally within their rights to seek employment with any other team,” Stern said. “That’s something we embrace. That’s our system.

“Miami did a pretty good job of clearing out cap space and putting together a plan.”

https://www.statesman.com/article/20120901/NEWS/309007223

Back to the drawing board for you Kidd.

Lebron did not do anything illegally. But whether legal or not, he actively sought out the formation of a superteam that was expected to dominate everyone else. A team expected to win not 7 championships. Have we forgotten how they paraded and shoved that superteam in our faces years back? They knew what they had done, premeditatedly tipped the scales heavily to their favor.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

What did LeBron do illegally?

David Stern:
“Players are going to talk, they’re going to do that,″ Stern said from an owners meeting in Las Vegas. “But the club did nothing wrong as far as we know. No formal complaints were levied at our Board of Governors meeting.″

“Our players are totally within their rights to seek employment with any other team,” Stern said. “That’s something we embrace. That’s our system.

“Miami did a pretty good job of clearing out cap space and putting together a plan.”

https://www.statesman.com/article/20120901/NEWS/309007223

Back to the drawing board for you Kidd.

Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

So you skipped this part bro. It didnt have to be illegal, being deceitful is enough to qualify as collusion. Lebron deceived fans as he moved to Miami to make a superteam, hes not only a traitor for the Cavs franchise, but also a coward who decided to team up with superstars instead of overcoming adversities himself. And even so, he still managed to lose more in the finals than he won, hes just not a winner on the biggest stage of basketball. Fans thought he was going to be the next MJ, and instead he was nowhere close to that level, this is deception.

[Hey Yo]

Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

So you skipped this part bro. It didnt have to be illegal, being deceitful is enough to qualify as collusion. Lebron deceived fans as he moved to Miami to make a superteam, hes not only a traitor for the Cavs franchise, but also a coward who decided to team up with superstars instead of overcoming adversities himself. And even so, he still managed to lose more in the finals than he won, hes just not a winner on the biggest stage of basketball. Fans thought he was going to be the next MJ, and instead he was nowhere close to that level, this is deception.

Who did he deceive?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Who did he deceive?

The fans who thought he would stay in Cleveland for his career, and took the franchise to the level of Chicago Bulls like MJ did. Instead he decided to be a journeyman and collude, yet failed to win more finals than he lost.

[8Ball]

No collusion either.

No deception.

LeBron fulfilled his contract to the letter. Came back in 2014 to Cleveland to deliver on his verbal promise too.

LeBron is the most honourable superstar the NBA has ever seen.

[Hey Yo]

The fans who thought he would stay in Cleveland for his career, and took the franchise to the level of Chicago Bulls like MJ did. Instead he decided to be a journeyman and collude, yet failed to win more finals than he lost.
Show me where he said he was going to play his entire career in Cleveland.

So every player who's exercised their right to free agency and chose to sign with another team is considered a colluder? If so, I guess MJ colluded when he signed with Washington, correct?

[Kiddlovesnets]

Show me where he said he was going to play his entire career in Cleveland.

So every player who's exercised their right to free agency and chose to sign with another team is considered a colluder? If so, I guess MJ colluded when he signed with Washington, correct?

He never said, but the media and fans thought it was going to happen, or at the very least Lebron would not have joined up with 2 other all-stars to avoid competition. Instead Lebron went to Miami, and made a superteam of his own. If leaving Cleveland aint qualified as deception, then at least making a superteam was a deception. He failed the expectation and promise that he would be a competitor, he chose the easy path and colluded. MJ and other all time greats would not have taken a shortcut, they enjoyed defeating opponents rather than, teaming up with them.

[8Ball]

Definition of collusion
: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

The NBA did an internal investigation and saw no evidence of collusion.

This is all heresy from Kiddlovesnets.

[8Ball]

Take a break Kidd,

You're out of control this morning posting everywhere like 3ball and losing every argument.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Take a break Kidd,

You're out of control this morning posting everywhere like 3ball and losing every argument.

Nah you are the one losing arguments and you were just trolling. Sometimes I feel whether its worth wasting my time making a serious argument, when all you want is to troll. ISH is known for having a lot of troll accounts so maybe I should do the same, at least when arguing with actual trolls.
:lol

[Airupthere]

Show me where he said he was going to play his entire career in Cleveland.

So every player who's exercised their right to free agency and chose to sign with another team is considered a colluder? If so, I guess MJ colluded when he signed with Washington, correct?

Isn't it implied by self-anointing yourself the king and the chosen one that you would hold your fort and not jump ship?

[hateraid]

The fans who thought he would stay in Cleveland for his career, and took the franchise to the level of Chicago Bulls like MJ did. Instead he decided to be a journeyman and collude, yet failed to win more finals than he lost.

It's a job you idiot. And just like a job if a better offer comes along you take it.
Even your precious Jordan one time wanted to get out of Chicago because the Bad Boys constantly best him to a pulp. It the reason why Krause wouldn't pay his teammates their value.
Yet you Jordan stans love to scream COLLUSION because it's the only leg you stand on. Pathetic

[Airupthere]

It's a job you idiot. And just like a job if a better offer comes along you take it.
Even your precious Jordan one time wanted to get out of Chicago because the Bad Boys constantly best him to a pulp. It the reason why Krause wouldn't pay his teammates their value.
Yet you Jordan stans love to scream COLLUSION because it's the only leg you stand on. Pathetic

hateriad, what was your team back in the 80s/90s? just want to know.

[Kiddlovesnets]

It's a job you idiot. And just like a job if a better offer comes along you take it.
Even your precious Jordan one time wanted to get out of Chicago because the Bad Boys constantly best him to a pulp. It the reason why Krause wouldn't pay his teammates their value.
Yet you Jordan stans love to scream COLLUSION because it's the only leg you stand on. Pathetic

You sound mad, cant defend against the fact that Lebron colluded and made his superteam lol. But like I said, Lebron has every right to collude, but once he decide to collude he will no longer have any excuses for not winning in the finals. When he lost in Cleveland before 2010, we could always give him a pass that his teammates aint good enough. But from the moment on, this excuse aint acceptable anymore, its ring or bust. Lebron's problem aint collusion at all, its that he created his own superteams and yet somehow, managed less than 50% finals record. No one would hold anything against Lebron had he won all the finals since joining up with Wade/Bosh, but he just lost way too many finals to be even close to MJ's tier.

[Hey Yo]

He never said, but the media and fans thought it was going to happen, or at the very least Lebron would not have joined up with 2 other all-stars to avoid competition. Instead Lebron went to Miami, and made a superteam of his own. If leaving Cleveland aint qualified as deception, then at least making a superteam was a deception. He failed the expectation and promise that he would be a competitor, he chose the easy path and colluded. MJ and other all time greats would not have taken a shortcut, they enjoyed defeating opponents rather than, teaming up with them.
You have no idea what the media and fans were thinking.

KG waived his no trade clause so he could team up 2 other All-stars, were you crying about that? I highly doubt it.

Getting the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th season is considered being no competitive and failing to meet expectations? :oldlol: you're so ****ing dumb.

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.

[Hey Yo]

You sound mad, cant defend against the fact that Lebron colluded and made his superteam lol. But like I said, Lebron has every right to collude, but once he decide to collude he will no longer have any excuses for not winning in the finals. When he lost in Cleveland before 2010, we could always give him a pass that his teammates aint good enough. But from the moment on, this excuse aint acceptable anymore, its ring or bust. Lebron's problem aint collusion at all, its that he created his own superteams and yet somehow, managed less than 50% finals record. No one would hold anything against Lebron had he won all the finals since joining up with Wade/Bosh, but he just lost way too many finals to be even close to MJ's tier.
“Players are going to talk, they’re going to do that,″ Stern said from an owners meeting in Las Vegas. “But the club did nothing wrong as far as we know. No formal complaints were levied at our Board of Governors meeting.″

“Our players are totally within their rights to seek employment with any other team,” Stern said. “That’s something we embrace. That’s our system.

[Kiddlovesnets]

You have no idea what the media and fans were thinking.

KG waived his no trade clause so he could team up 2 other All-stars, were you crying about that? I highly doubt it.

Getting the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th season is considered being no competitive and failing to meet expectations? :oldlol: you're so ****ing dumb.

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.

Of course I have, I was around since 2007 on ISH and back then no one thought that Lebron would be ring chasing by forming superteams. You were apparently way too young to remember what happened in the summer 2010, Lebron seemed to get a pass for his collusion only after he won a ring in Miami. If Durant wins another 2-3 rings, no one will care about the fact that he joined the Warriors in 2016. Such is the reality of the world we live in, Lebron could turn from a villian to superhero as long as hes winning rings.

For MJ's teammates, Pippen was drafted and started as a role player. If he played with Lebron, there was not a chance Pippen would've developed into the player he is. This is the difference, MJ's teammates were able to improve and make contributions with him, while Lebron held his teammates back to a point that everyone became a role player except for himself. Theres a reason why an all-star teammate joined up with Lebron, he stopped making all-star appearances from then on. Lebronstans kept talking as if Lebron had no help since his teammates didnt make all-stars weekends, but they were all-stars before teaming up with Lebron.

[Hey Yo]

Of course I have, I was around since 2007 on ISH and back then no one thought that Lebron would be ring chasing by forming superteams. You were apparently way too young to remember what happened in the summer 2010, Lebron seemed to get a pass for his collusion only after he won a ring in Miami. If Durant wins another 2-3 rings, no one will care about the fact that he joined the Warriors in 2016. Such is the reality of the world we live in, Lebron could turn from a villian to superhero as long as hes winning rings.

For MJ's teammates, Pippen was drafted and started as a role player. If he played with Lebron, there was not a chance Pippen would've developed into the player he is. This is the difference, MJ's teammates were able to improve and make contributions with him, while Lebron held his teammates back to a point that everyone became a role player except for himself. Theres a reason why an all-star teammate joined up with Lebron, he stopped making all-star appearances from then on. Lebronstans kept talking as if Lebron had no help since his teammates didnt make all-stars weekends, but they were all-stars before teaming up with Lebron.

KG waived his no trade clause so he could team up 2 other All-stars, were you crying about that? I highly doubt it.

Getting the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th season is considered being non competitive and failing to meet expectations? :oldlol: you're so ****ing dumb.

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.

[Kiddlovesnets]

KG waived his no trade clause so he could team up 2 other All-stars, were you crying about that? I highly doubt it.

Getting the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th season is considered being non competitive and failing to meet expectations? :oldlol: you're so ****ing dumb.

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.

Yeah I was unhappy about Celtics collusion either, why should I be happy as a Nets fan? It doesnt change anything though, even though Celtics were the first to make a big three doesnt mean what Lebron did was any better, its actually far worse since he wasnt traded.

But anyway, why did you keep mentioning MJ teaming up with all-stars? I never said Lebron had no right to collude, collusion is a trend in this era. The problem has been and always will be, that Lebron loses too many finals series despite collusion. Lebron can make superteams, but then he no longer has any excuse for losing in the finals. No one would hold anything against Lebron had he won every year during his big three era, but in fact he managed 3 out of 7 from 2011 to 2017 when he had superteams, what a joke.

[deathawaitu]

Lebron did miss the playoff 3 times like a scrub though

[kawhileonard2]

KG waived his no trade clause so he could team up 2 other All-stars, were you crying about that? I highly doubt it.

Getting the Cavs to the Finals in his 4th season is considered being non competitive and failing to meet expectations? :oldlol: you're so ****ing dumb.

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.

Lebron teamed up with 2 guys who had won 3+ DPOY in Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard as well as two guys who won finals mvp's in Shaq and Wade.

[Axe]

MJ had no problem teaming up with the 4x rebounding champion, 2x DPOY and 6x 1st team All-defensive player.
Lol by teaming up, then it only means that he left the team that drafted him so he can join other contending teams back in the day but that's not what happened then. They came to his team instead at some point.

Another typical low ass iq post from a maga fool. :facepalm

[Shooter]

How damaging is a 1st round loss when people are shook over a 4th round loss?

4th round loss is 2nd place, far better than a 1st round loss, 16th place.

Interesting.

[BigShotBob]

How damaging is a 1st round loss when people are shook over a 4th round loss?

4th round loss is 2nd place, far better than a 1st round loss, 16th place.

Interesting.

Do you get a ring for losing in the Finals?

[Shooter]

Do you get a ring for losing in the Finals?

Did Curry get any Finals MVP votes after 5 straight Finals or was he 0/55? :lol'

Shhhhhhhhhhhh