Better passer: MJ or Kobe?

[PeroAntic]

When Kobe took over as playmaker in 2013 (Magic Mamba days) he showed he has elite passing. But it was obvious it was interfering with his scoring game because he made bad decisions (against his instinct) when he went in pass first mode. Not taking open shots etc. So IMO MJ was a better passer because he had better decision making and court vision even though Kobe had more flair and creativity. MJ could make the right and simple pass more often. He balanced score vs. pass better than Kobe (even though he was also scoring oriented)

[8Ball]

Kobe is a better passer.

But both players are at Kyrie Irving levels of passing, quite mediocre.

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan was probably the best. When he passed to teammates they hit the shot. When Kobe or Lebron did the teammates missed the shot.

[RRR3]

Jordan was probably the best. When he passed to teammates they hit the shot. When Kobe or Lebron did the teammates missed the shot.
Kind of hard to explain how LeBron has more assists than Jordan if your post is true.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan was probably the best. When he passed to teammates they hit the shot. When Kobe or Lebron did the teammates missed the shot.
Do you have any statistical evidence or proof of this, or are you talking completely out of your ass :lol

[Kiddlovesnets]

MJ had 32/8/8 season in 1988 and averaged 11apg in 1991 finals, he was more than capable of running the point if needed. I dont know about Kobe's playmaking though, so cant comment on this one.

[RRR3]

Do you have any statistical evidence or proof of this, or are you talking completely out of your ass :lol
I mean considering LeBron averages a good amount more assists than Jordan...

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan was probably the best. When he passed to teammates they hit the shot. When Kobe or Lebron did the teammates missed the shot.

Am I the only one who took this as sarcasm?

[kawhileonard2]

Do you have any statistical evidence or proof of this, or are you talking completely out of your ass :lol

When Jordan passed to guys in the finals they hit the shot. When Lebron did so they missed the shot especially at the crucial time. Goes to show teammates expected the pass because they knew MJ was a great passer while Lebron's teammates was not expecting the pass.

[kawhileonard2]

I mean considering LeBron averages a good amount more assists than Jordan...

Amount is irrevelant unless it comes in the most important moments. Shooting 90% from the FT line doesn't matter if you can't make them when it matters.

[SouBeachTalents]

When Jordan passed to guys in the finals they hit the shot. When Lebron did so they missed the shot especially at the crucial time. Goes to show teammates expected the pass because they knew MJ was a great passer while Lebron's teammates was not expecting the pass.
Off the top of my head Jordan had literally one GW assist in the Finals. Impressive sample size :lol

[And1AllDay]

kobe duh

[And1AllDay]

Am I the only one who took this as sarcasm?

he just has low iq

[kawhileonard2]

Off the top of my head Jordan had literally one GW assist in the Finals. Impressive sample size :lol

More than anyone else.

[RRR3]

When Jordan passed to guys in the finals they hit the shot. When Lebron did so they missed the shot especially at the crucial time. Goes to show teammates expected the pass because they knew MJ was a great passer while Lebron's teammates was not expecting the pass.
I promise you LeBron averages more if not significantly more APG than Jordan in the finals, so again this literally bullshit.

[kawhileonard2]

I promise you LeBron averages more if not significantly more APG than Jordan in the finals, so again this literally bullshit.

Who did Jordan pass to that hit the shot to win and who did Lebron pass to to hit the shot to win?

[SouBeachTalents]

More than anyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9o8SCyBbbQ&ab_channel=Benka

[kawhileonard2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9o8SCyBbbQ&ab_channel=Benka

So they won the series because of that?

[SouBeachTalents]

So they won the series because of that?
Lmao, now you're limiting it to game winning assists to win the Finals :oldlol: You HAVE to be trolling with that subjective bullshit

[kawhileonard2]

Lmao, now you're limiting it to game winning assists to win the Finals :oldlol: You HAVE to be trolling with that subjective bullshit

Should we limit a war to win to someone who dropped a bomb or the bomb that ended the war?

[SouBeachTalents]

Should we limit a war to win to someone who dropped a bomb or the bomb that ended the war?
Well I guess that makes Horace Grant the GOAT big man passer

[RRR3]

Duncan21forMVP might be the single worst troll on here. And by worst in this context I mean least effective. People don’t take him seriously, his posts don’t hold up to the slightest scrutiny and he is literally never funny. Just some real F grade trolling, it’s honestly pathetic. Trolling has to have a basis in reality, hold up to mild scrutiny at least and be funny.

[72-10]

If Jordan had passed more, it's not very convincing that his team would have won more. If LeBron passes more, his team wins more. Despite this, Jordan's passing skills are not that far off from LeBron's, so I don't know what would make someone postulate that they're comparable to Kobe's paucity in that department. Kobe is easily the worst passer among the all-time great players other than a couple centers and forwards, which doesn't bode well with the triangle offense because the defense could then pressure him into a low percentage shot, which he often missed. David Robinson had a season averaging more assists per game than Kobe's career average, and Kobe was a guard.

[1987_Lakers]

Same level, both are not known for their passing.

[ShawkFactory]

Same level, both are not known for their passing.

Not being known for passing is not the same as not being good at it. Every great basketball player ever has been great at passing. It’s a huge part of the game..

Some are better than others of course.

Of non PGs Bird is the GOAT. Bron isn’t too far behind. Duncan was amazing.

As were Mike and Kobe

[RRR3]

Not being known for passing is not the same as not being good at it. Every great basketball player ever has been great at passing. It’s a huge part of the game..

Some are better than others of course.

Of non PGs Bird is the GOAT. Bron isn’t too far behind. Duncan was amazing.

As were Mike and Kobe
Lol what? Dwight Howard was a great player and no one called him a great passer.

[ShawkFactory]

Lol what? Dwight Howard was a great player and no one called him a great passer.

Every all time great...Dwight Howard is not in that conversation.

Way to nit-pick and find some sort of issue.

Even with that, there are of course a couple people who have niches that made them special. You’re Moses Malone’s and such

But that’s the exception not the rule.

[light]

Jordan was the better passer.

Kobe averaged 4 double digit assist games per season.
Jordan averaged 6 double digit assist games per season.
LeBron averages 16 double digit assist games per season.

[Axe]

Both are ballhogs and worthless without the triangle

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Both about the same as passers, Jordan turned ball less largely because he was better at finishing (those mittens) and both spent about the same amount of time in the triangle, Kobe did more ball-handling duties but that's not saying much since neither were the primary ball handler, they were good enough to play off ball and get to their spots unlike some other so called legends of the game

FWIW Jordan averaged 5.1 in 38.4 mpg RS and 5.5 on 41.5 MPG PS, Kobe in triangle (plus 05 which had him play some triangle when he came back from injury) had him at 5.2 in 38.9 mpg RS and 5.1 in 41.7 mpg PS. Per 100 has it at 6.8 / 7.2 for MJ and 6.9 / 6.5 for Kobe

As far as film I've seen both make ridiculous passes but neither guy going to be mistaken for Magic or Bird, but both were definitely two of the best non-PG passers I've seen. We know Jordan could run an offense over the course of a season as PG, it involved some blatant stat padding but it was harder doing that back then than it's been today where it's gotten much easier, and we saw Kobe with Plantar Fasciitis do something similar in 05 leading that team to a top 5ish offense as both scorer/passer against a pretty strong starting schedule before his injury vs Cavs (I want to point out, the 05 Kobe-less Lakers faced some really weak injury depleted rosters without Kobe and were obliterated anytime they faced a healthy squad), and we saw it in the 2nd half of the 2013 season at age 34 with a ton of injuries, just not full season at full health

[Manny98]

Duncan21forMVP might be the single worst troll on here. And by worst in this context I mean least effective. People don’t take him seriously, his posts don’t hold up to the slightest scrutiny and he is literally never funny. Just some real F grade trolling, it’s honestly pathetic. Trolling has to have a basis in reality, hold up to mild scrutiny at least and be funny.
One of the only posters here I have on ignore

His trolling isn't even funny, it's just stupid and cringworthy :facepalm

[PeroAntic]

Both about the same as passers, Jordan turned ball less largely because he was better at finishing (those mittens) and both spent about the same amount of time in the triangle, Kobe did more ball-handling duties but that's not saying much since neither were the primary ball handler, they were good enough to play off ball and get to their spots unlike some other so called legends of the game

FWIW Jordan averaged 5.1 in 38.4 mpg RS and 5.5 on 41.5 MPG PS, Kobe in triangle (plus 05 which had him play some triangle when he came back from injury) had him at 5.2 in 38.9 mpg RS and 5.1 in 41.7 mpg PS. Per 100 has it at 6.8 / 7.2 for MJ and 6.9 / 6.5 for Kobe

As far as film I've seen both make ridiculous passes but neither guy going to be mistaken for Magic or Bird, but both were definitely two of the best non-PG passers I've seen. We know Jordan could run an offense over the course of a season as PG, it involved some blatant stat padding but it was harder doing that back then than it's been today where it's gotten much easier, and we saw Kobe with Plantar Fasciitis do something similar in 05 leading that team to a top 5ish offense as both scorer/passer against a pretty strong starting schedule before his injury vs Cavs (I want to point out, the 05 Kobe-less Lakers faced some really weak injury depleted rosters without Kobe and were obliterated anytime they faced a healthy squad), and we saw it in the 2nd half of the 2013 season at age 34 with a ton of injuries, just not full season at full health

IMO Jordan was better at hitting the open man, but Kobe could see gaps where he couldn't and was more adept at pulling something out of his hat. But he had more tunnel vision when in score mode.

[tanibanana]

Kobe is the better passer... but MJ is the more willing passer (as surprising it may sound)

[eliteballer]

Kobe is the better passer... but MJ is the more willing passer (as surprising it may sound)

You mean Kobe is the more talented/skilled passer but Jordan is more willing to pass the ball.

[3ball]

Do you have any statistical evidence or proof of this, or are you talking completely out of your ass :lol


Kerr and Paxson made their shots.... :confusedshrug:

Do you have any examples of teammates missing shots with the game on the line in the playoffs?

So Jordan's fearlessness was simply contagious

And Jordan is the goat passer because everyone said he was a better PG than Stockton and Magic when he played PG in 89' (year 5 of his career), and he's the only guy to average 10 apg in a series without bringing the ball up or playing PG

Otoh, lebron has no evidence of being the best passer -he wasn't called the best PG until Year 17 and he has a long history of sacrificing team assists and team offense for personal stats..

[SouBeachTalents]

Kerr and Paxson made their shots.... :confusedshrug:

Do you have any examples of teammates missing shots with the game on the line in the playoffs?

So Jordan's fearlessness was simply contagious

And Jordan is the goat passer because everyone said he was a better PG than Stockton and Magic when he played PG in 89' and he's the only guy to average 10 apg in a series without bringing the ball up or playing PG

Otoh, all lebron has is a record of sacrificing team assists and team offense for personal stats..
Jordan didn't pass to Paxson. He didn't even make the pass to Grant

[3ball]

Jordan didn't pass to Paxson. He didn't even make the pass to Grant


He was about to be doubled...... IN THE BACKCOURT.... that's how lethal he was

So naturally, he anticipated the double team and gave it up early...

And his teammates stayed in the moment and didn't freeze because HE never froze... He was never the "frozen one" in the clutch like you know who

It's night and day...

Ultimately, Jordan was called the best PG in year 5, while lebron didn't get that until Year 17.. Furthermore, Jordan could average 10 apg without playing a PG role and lebron can't... Jordan had goat team offense, and had the optimal level of individual apg (5-7 apg).. he didn't hog the assists and allowed the team to maximize assists

[SouBeachTalents]

He was about to be doubled...... IN THE BACKCOURT.... that's how lethal he was

So naturally, he anticipated the double team and gave it up early...

And his teammates stayed in the moment and didn't freeze because HE never froze... He was never the "frozen one" in the clutch like you know who

It's night and day...

Ultimately, Jordan was called the best PG in year 5, while lebron didn't get that until Year 17.. Jordan could average 10 apg without playing a PG role and lebron can't... Jordan had goat team offense, and had the optimal level of individual apg (5-7 apg).. he didn't the assists and allowed the team to maximize assists
Just because you found one article saying that doesn't mean the consensus actually believed he was a better PG than Magic or Stockton. I could find lone articles saying all kinds of stupid shit

[3ball]

Just because you found one article saying that doesn't mean the consensus actually believed he was a better PG than Magic. I could find lone articles saying all kinds of stupid shit


It was the associated press.. Jordan at PG was the talk of the league

Magic wasn't getting 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - only Jordan was

Jordan's time at PG dwarfed everyone and Magic's 20/8/11 looked old-fashioned compared to Jordan playing 30 years ahead of his time with Harden/Westbrook spacing stats (30/10/10)

[mehyaM24]

jordan was such a "good pg" that pippen overtook his playmaking duties :oldlol: when competing for titles, or from 91-98, pippen averaged MORE playoff assists than jordan. 6 to 5.

[3ball]

jordan was such a "good pg" that pippen overtook his playmaking duties :oldlol: when competing for titles, or from 91-98, pippen averaged MORE playoff assists than jordan. 6 to 5.


Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen in the regular season and Playoffs, while leading in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs with Pippen.

But more importantly, Jordan can't assist on his own shots (and his volume is much higher than Pippen's), so Jordan's assist PERCENTAGE was 33% higher than Pippen's in the playoffs - Jordan assisted 33% more often while doubling Pippen's scoring and getting more DPOY votes every year - that's the goat load

So Jordan ran the offense by assisting 33% more often and doubling Pippen's scoring

[mehyaM24]

the numbers are there on bref. pippen literally averaged more playoff assists a game. this was at the peak of their success too aka 91-98.

jordan's scoring is irrelevant to the the topic at hand - which is passing. again, something pippen did better.

[3ball]

the numbers are there on bref. pippen literally averaged more playoff assists a game. this was at the peak of their success too aka 91-98.

jordan's scoring is irrelevant to the the topic at hand - which is passing.


Jordan assisted 20% more often than Pippen in the 91-98' Playoffs, while doubling his scoring average.. literally everything ran through Jordan

Ultimately, Jordan averaged more assists in the regular season and Playoffs, and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting far more often and doubling his scoring.. Pippen was completely carried and the stats show that clearly - Jordan has 6 carry-jobs greater than Dirk's 11' ring

[mehyaM24]

jordan averaged less assists a game (5) than pippen (6) when competing for titles.

you just mentioned his triple doubles without needing to break down percentages. who cares about the "assist percentage" of jordan, who is supposedly better at playmaking, yet averaged less playoff assists a game than pippen. during their championship reign too! once again, scoring is irrelevant because the topic is on passing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan assisted 20% more often than Pippen in the 91-98' Playoffs, while doubling his scoring average.. literally everything ran through Jordan

Ultimately, Jordan averaged more assists in the regular season and Playoffs, and 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting far more often and doubling his scoring.. Pippen was completely carried and the stats show that clearly - Jordan has 6 carry-jobs greater than Dirk's 11' ring
Jordan has the 6 greatest carry jobs of all time

[3ball]

Jordan has the 6 greatest carry jobs of all time


He has 6 of the top 10 for sure

94' Hakeem... 11' Dirk....

Ultimately, who cares about rings with 1b's or super-teams?... only rings with true 2nd options and without super-teams matter - mj has 6

[Axe]

He has 6 of the top 10 for sure

94' Hakeem... 11' Dirk....

Ultimately, who cares about rings with 1b's or super-teams?... only rings with true 2nd options and without super-teams matter - mj has 6
Who cares about you telling this when said first option only went 1-9 in the playoffs without his second option?

[FKAri]

He has 6 of the top 10 for sure

94' Hakeem... 11' Dirk....

Ultimately, who cares about rings with 1b's or super-teams?... only rings with true 2nd options and without super-teams matter - mj has 6

No. They don't really matter. It's a playground ball game with made up rules. Caesar's conquest of Gaul, Alexander's defeat of Persia or Lebron subjugating the Warriors are real wins.

[72-10]

No. They don't really matter. It's a playground ball game with made up rules. Caesar's conquest of Gaul, Alexander's defeat of Persia or Lebron subjugating the Warriors are real wins.

You could have just harped on Kobe's relative lack of passing skills, such as compared with Jordan's, and instead you posted this sh*t. I don't recall Kobe making great passes, at least not lots like Jordan did, but if you wish to post some film to the contrary, I'm game. When did Kobe thread the needle like MJ could do seemingly like he pulled the skill out of his bag of tricks? When did Kobe run the break or the point as well as MJ? Kobe had to do a carry job to average 6 assists seasons.

[3ball]

No. They don't really matter. It's a playground ball game with made up rules. Caesar's conquest of Gaul, Alexander's defeat of Persia or Lebron subjugating the Warriors are real wins.


Nope

Beating a super-team means nothing if you have a super-team yourself.

So the only rings that matter are those with non-superteams, and also those with true 2nd options (no 1b's or fmvp sidekicks).

Here's a list of non-superteam rings, with an asterisk next to those with 2nd options:



89' Pistons
90' Pistons
94' Rockets*
95' Rockets*
11' Mavs*
04' Pistons
09' Lakers*
10' Lakers*
15' Warriors*
19' Raptors*
90's Bulls*

[ShawkFactory]

Nope

Beating a super-team means nothing if you have a super-team yourself.

So the only rings that matter are those with non-superteams, and also those with true 2nd options (no 1b's or fmvp sidekicks).

Here's a list of non-superteam rings, with an asterisk next to those with 2nd options:



89' Pistons
90' Pistons
94' Rockets*
95' Rockets*
11' Mavs*
04' Pistons
09' Lakers*
10' Lakers*
15' Warriors*
19' Raptors*
90's Bulls*

If beating a super team with a super team means nothing then wouldn't beating a non-super team with a non-super team also mean nothing? :lol

[3ball]

If beating a super team with a super team means nothing then wouldn't beating a non-super team with a non-super team also mean nothing? :lol


Maybe but Lebron lost to KD's Warriors, so he never beat any super-teams anyway.. And winning with non-superteams (parity) is generally going to be harder than winning with super-teams (top-heavy league, free passes to Finals for the 2 super-teams)

And Jordan has 6 of the 12 rings won with true 2nd options (2nd options that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP) - Pippen, Gasol, Jason Terry, Rip Hamilton, Klay and Horry are the only true 2nd options that won in 3-pointer basketball.

[SouBeachTalents]

If beating a super team with a super team means nothing then wouldn't beating a non-super team with a non-super team also mean nothing? :lol
Damn, just destroyed his entire narrative :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Damn, just destroyed his entire narrative :oldlol:

It’s too easy sometimes :lol

[Axe]

Maybe but Lebron lost to KD's Warriors, so he never beat any super-teams anyway.. And winning with non-superteams (parity) is generally going to be harder than winning with super-teams (top-heavy league, free passes to Finals for the 2 super-teams)

And Jordan has 6 of the 12 rings won with true 2nd options (2nd options that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP) - Pippen, Gasol, Jason Terry, Rip Hamilton, Klay and Horry are the only true 2nd options that won in 3-pointer basketball.
Who cares? He won them in a weak era anyway. :rolleyes:

[Gohan]

No. They don't really matter. It's a playground ball game with made up rules. Caesar's conquest of Gaul, Alexander's defeat of Persia or Lebron subjugating the Warriors are real wins.

Don’t forget me defeating cell. I might just have to pull up on you in yo hood. You’ll know homie I’m on that potion

[Axe]

Don’t forget me defeating cell. I might just have to pull up on you in yo hood. You’ll know homie I’m on that potion
https://media1.tenor.com/images/0cea45a9653efeb2865ecc00ee18a17d/tenor.gif

[WhiteKyrie]

Jordan was the better passer.

Kobe averaged 4 double digit assist games per season.
Jordan averaged 6 double digit assist games per season.
LeBron averages 16 double digit assist games per season.
LeBron hunts those stats and is an on ball point forward, dominating time of possession.

Michael and Kobe played in actual offensive systems, off the ball, were ISO scorers, offensive bail out guys or play finishers.

Compare LeBron to the likes of Magic, Harden, Westbrick, Luka given they have more similar play styles.

Answer to OP? Both are criminally underrated passers. But Michael was definitely superior in that regard.

[72-10]

Making less than three passes in a half
MJ: 3
Kobe: 26

[j3lademaster]

Don’t forget me defeating cell. I might just have to pull up on you in yo hood. You’ll know homie I’m on that potionDoesn't count. You were going to give up before your dad talked you through it. Mentally weak. I'd give you credit for only being 11 at the time, but how you grew up during the Buu saga didn't do you any favors.

[Orange_Cassidy]

kobe was the better passer. his highlight mixes have way more fancy stuff. plus kobe was a set up man for shaq for a ton of huge plays/highlights. he led all 5 title teams in assists and was the primary ball handler for the Lakers. Jordan was more in the shaq role in the triangle on the low block. while kobe ran a ton of screen and rolls/pops with kobe as the assist guy or hockey assist guy. he also took over for nash in 2013 and averaged 10 assists one month showing he could always play point guard if needed. he just has way more no looks,, between the legs passes, wrap arounds and set ups for others. Jordan made the smart pass put of a double but pippen was their lead playmaker

[8Ball]

This is like asking who the better passer between giannis and kawhi.


Special olympics.

[Orange_Cassidy]

You mean Kobe is the more talented/skilled passer but Jordan is more willing to pass the ball.

this is an accurate description. if kobe wanted to he could average 10apg easy. hes just not that much of a destroyer of a team oriented offense like lebron though.

[theman93]

Jordan averaged more assists per game and has a higher career assist %.

Jordan also has a higher assists per game peak and assist % peak.

The answer is Jordan, and pretty easily.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Jordan averaged more assists per game and has a higher career assist %.

Jordan also has a higher assists per game peak and assist % peak.

The answer is Jordan, and pretty easily.



the title says "better passer" ... not "more willing passer"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fZRHUhZYxA

[theman93]

the title says "better passer" ... not "more willing passer"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fZRHUhZYxA

The eye test matched the statistics. The answer is Jordan.


https://youtu.be/YbaqbclM08c

[Phoenix]

They're kind of at the same level? Visually and at least in terms of assist numbers within the triangle which deflates individual averages If you just gave Kobe the ball in a more conventional offense he would have had some 7-8 apg seasons. MJ did it in 1989.

[Orange_Cassidy]

The eye test matched the statistics. The answer is Jordan.


https://youtu.be/YbaqbclM08c

7 minutes. thats cute


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNPi_MVaRm4

[2much_knowledge]

Both were good passers, just no that willing to do it

[ImKobe]

Phil said Kobe was a better all-around offensive player than MJ because of his playmaking ability.


Jordan averaged more assists per game and has a higher career assist %.

Jordan also has a higher assists per game peak and assist % peak.

The answer is Jordan, and pretty easily.

Kobe led more title teams in assists than MJ though (Kobe 5, MJ 3) and his assist numbers are lower because he played with bigs who demanded the ball in the post.


Both were good passers, just no that willing to do it

both had great court vision but played off-ball a lot and were asked to carry that huge scoring burden for their team. I think both could have averaged Harden/Wade-like assist numbers if they played in a different system. MJ put up 8 assists in a season and 8.4 assists for a title run, Kobe when he was forced into the PG role under MDA in his 17th year averaged 7.5 assists for almost half the season.

[Bronbron23]

Kobe is a better passer.

But both players are at Kyrie Irving levels of passing, quite mediocre.

Mj was clearly a better passer.

And if mj is a mediocre passer what is bron? He dosn't even get 2 more assists a game as a ball dominant point gaurd. Mj was a shooting gaurd. Thw one year he was in a similar role to bron in 89 he had 8 assists a game.

[theman93]

Phil said Kobe was a better all-around offensive player than MJ because of his playmaking ability.



Kobe led more title teams in assists than MJ though (Kobe 5, MJ 3) and his assist numbers are lower because he played with bigs who demanded the ball in the post.



both had great court vision but played off-ball a lot and were asked to carry that huge scoring burden for their team. I think both could have averaged Harden/Wade-like assist numbers if they played in a different system. MJ put up 8 assists in a season and 8.4 assists for a title run, Kobe when he was forced into the PG role under MDA in his 17th year averaged 7.5 assists for almost half the season.

Who led more title teams in assists is an arbitrary standard when asking who was the better passer. Why that over who averaged more assists per game in the regular season for their career, or who averaged more assists per game in the playoffs for their career, or who had a higher assist per game peak in the regular season or playoffs? Who was the better assist man over the course of their career is a better metric than cherry picking the title runs, and peak shows what they put up while at their best.

Jordan's assist totals are also lower because he had to carry the bigger offensive burden. Where Kobe was dumping it to Shaq, Gasol, or Bynum in the post, Jordan was shooting. Kobe's regular season career FGA/g is 19.5 - Jordan's is 22.9. Kobe's playoff career FGA/g is 20.5 - Jordan's is 25.1. So Kobe's assists being lower due to his bigs demanding the ball cancels out with Jordan assists being lower due to his offensive burden.

[ImKobe]

Who led more title teams in assists is an arbitrary standard when asking who was the better passer. Why that over who averaged more assists per game in the regular season for their career, or who averaged more assists per game in the playoffs for their career, or who had a higher assist per game peak in the regular season or playoffs? Who was the better assist man over the course of their career is a better metric than cherry picking the title runs, and peak shows what they put up while at their best.

Jordan's assist totals are also lower because he had to carry the bigger offensive burden. Where Kobe was dumping it to Shaq, Gasol, or Bynum in the post, Jordan was shooting. Kobe's regular season career FGA/g is 19.5 - Jordan's is 22.9. Kobe's playoff career FGA/g is 20.5 - Jordan's is 25.1. So Kobe's assists being lower due to his bigs demanding the ball cancels out with Jordan assists being lower due to his offensive burden.

It's a decent argument but I'm leaning more towards what Phil said in '01 about Kobe's playmaking in the triangle. I think both would have been excellent playmakers under today's rules & style of play at about 7-8 assists a game to go along with their 30-40 ppg.

Again, this is what Phil said about Kobe per ESPN in '01


"And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."
Jackson was quickly asked for a clarification. That includes Michael Jordan?
"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," Jackson said. "That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

[theman93]

Two other things to consider...

1) In 1989 MJ had a 19 game stretch in which he averaged 12 assists/gm. Here are the totals from each game: 15, 14, 12, 9, 10, 16, 9, 17, 12, 11, 10, 10, 12, 12, 10, 11, 12, 13, 12. Kobe never had a stretch like this in his career.

2) In the 1991 Finals MJ averaged 11.4 assists/gm. Kobe never had a Finals that sniffed that. Nor did he even have a playoff series that came close.

[theman93]

It's a decent argument but I'm leaning more towards what Phil said in '01 about Kobe's playmaking in the triangle. I think both would have been excellent playmakers under today's rules & style of play at about 7-8 assists a game to go along with their 30-40 ppg.

Again, this is what Phil said about Kobe per ESPN in '01

I won't argue with Phil, but he wasn't Jordan's coach in 1989. That was probably his best year as a passer averaging 8 assists/gm for the season followed by 8.2 assists/gm in round 1 and 8.3 assists/gm in round 2.

If what Phil is saying is true, then without being asked to be the playmaker MJ still averaged 8.4 assists/gm in their playoff run in 1991 and averaged 11.4 assists/gm in the Finals. What would he have done if Phil asked him to be the playmaker?

[ImKobe]

Kobe tried to play that role in the first half of the '03 season (41 games) and averaged 28/8/7 but that was with Shaq out the first 16 games and little offensive help. Then he hit his 40+ pt scoring streak and the assist numbers went down. He also averaged 25/6/8 as a PG (36 games, with Hack-A-Dwight as his main option with injured Gasol/Nash & G-leaguers) in his 17th season when they made the switch in the 2nd half of that year, Lakers went on to have one of the 5 best records post-ASB.

MJ's '91 Finals is impressive but Kobe's had high assist totals in a 5-game stretch as well. He averaged 33/7/10 (9.6 APG - 2.6 TO, 3 10+ ast games) in the first 5 games of that '2010 WCF, he was also the first since MJ to average 30+ ppg & 7+ apg in the Finals as well.

Both MJ & Kobe could play the PG role and do a great job in today's NBA.


I won't argue with Phil, but he wasn't Jordan's coach in 1989. That was probably his best year as a passer averaging 8 assists/gm for the season followed by 8.2 assists/gm in round 1 and 8.3 assists/gm in round 2.

If what Phil is saying is true, then without being asked to be the playmaker MJ still averaged 8.4 assists/gm in their playoff run in 1991 and averaged 11.4 assists/gm in the Finals. What would he have done if Phil asked him to be the playmaker?

It depends how he viewed MJ's passing, he said MJ was never asked to be the main facilitator in the triangle offense, but he would pass out of double teams when opponents doubled/tripled him and left his teammates wide open.

[Orange_Cassidy]

https://i.ibb.co/tJbGwHW/Screenshot-20210712-111447-Samsung-Internet.jpg


kobe can be magic whenever he wanted. that style of basketball is easy. all you need is good court vision. actually putting the ball in the hoops is the hard part

[theman93]

https://i.ibb.co/tJbGwHW/Screenshot-20210712-111447-Samsung-Internet.jpg


kobe can be magic whenever he wanted. that style of basketball is easy. all you need is good court vision. actually putting the ball in the hoops is the hard part

I had to zoom my page out just get a screen capture of how many games MJ had 9+ assists in 1989.

https://i.ibb.co/RgNHNXc/mjassist.png

28 double digit assists to Kobe's 11, and topped Kobe's season high of 14 three times.

[Orange_Cassidy]

I had to zoom my page out just get a screen capture of how many games MJ had 9+ assists in 1989.

https://i.ibb.co/RgNHNXc/mjassist.png

28 double digit assists to Kobe's 11, and topped Kobe's season high of 14 three times.

i already said multiple times jordan was the more willing passer. but jordans usage was probly waaaaay higher than kobes ever was that year and the pace was faster. different style of offense too. and a young jordan had less go to moves so if there was a great defense that kept him outside he basically had to pass when he couldn't get a good look. 2013 kobe was basically the OG curry

[3ba11]

Kobe tried to play that role in the first half of the '03 season (41 games) and averaged 28/8/7 but that was with Shaq out the first 16 games and little offensive help. Then he hit his 40+ pt scoring streak and the assist numbers went down. He also averaged 25/6/8 as a PG (36 games, with Hack-A-Dwight as his main option with injured Gasol/Nash & G-leaguers) in his 17th season when they made the switch in the 2nd half of that year, Lakers went on to have one of the 5 best records post-ASB.

MJ's '91 Finals is impressive but Kobe's had high assist totals in a 5-game stretch as well. He averaged 33/7/10 (9.6 APG - 2.6 TO, 3 10+ ast games) in the first 5 games of that '2010 WCF, he was also the first since MJ to average 30+ ppg & 7+ apg in the Finals as well.

Both MJ & Kobe could play the PG role and do a great job in today's NBA.



It depends how he viewed MJ's passing, he said MJ was never asked to be the main facilitator in the triangle offense, but he would pass out of double teams when opponents doubled/tripled him and left his teammates wide open.


Phil knew how to run the triangle, but he couldn't explain it to the media, so he went along with their dumbed-down generalizations about who was the "facilitator", etc..

The reality is that the triangle didn't have a facilitator - there was no point guard role - it was an equal-opportunity offense and Phil said this many times.. but he wasn't going to go into detail about it so sometimes he would just go along with the over-generalizations so Joe the Plumber could have a narrative in his brain that he could understand.. but it wasn't the actual reality of what was going on.

Pippen was never the facilitator and Jordan assisted 33% more often than him

[theman93]

i already said multiple times jordan was the more willing passer. but jordans usage was probly waaaaay higher than kobes ever was that year and the pace was faster. different style of offense too. and a young jordan had less go to moves so if there was a great defense that kept him outside he basically had to pass when he couldn't get a good look. 2013 kobe was basically the OG curry
Their usage was nearly equal (0.2 difference) and as for the difference in pace we can look at assist % to put it in it’s proper context:

1989 Jordan assist %: 34.7
2013 Kobe assist %: 29.7

If the defense was going to keep him outside the paint it was rare and would hardly have any effect on these numbers. 1989 was his highest fg%

[RogueBorg]

Their usage was nearly equal (0.2 difference) and as for the difference in pace we can look at assist % to put it in it’s proper context:

1989 Jordan assist %: 34.7
2013 Kobe assist %: 29.7

If the defense was going to keep him outside the paint it was rare and would hardly have any effect on these numbers. 1989 was his highest fg%

https://media2.giphy.com/media/xTk9ZPGRk605nVNGgg/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952f9f03515f0a5546f311f10448e45 b6bc131e5dda&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

SPanking Orange_Cassidy aka KennethGriffin

[Orange_Cassidy]

Their usage was nearly equal (0.2 difference) and as for the difference in pace we can look at assist % to put it in it’s proper context:

1989 Jordan assist %: 34.7
2013 Kobe assist %: 29.7

If the defense was going to keep him outside the paint it was rare and would hardly have any effect on these numbers. 1989 was his highest fg%

kobe was hitting 40 footers all year in 2013. the fact that he passed the ball at all was kind of just to show he could do it. Jordan was never the outside shooter kobe was and that probly played into his assist totals being higher in the 80s. when Jordan learned how to shoot he like kobe realized it's idiotic to pass and only did it when it was absolutely necessary

[tpols]

https://i.ibb.co/tJbGwHW/Screenshot-20210712-111447-Samsung-Internet.jpg


kobe can be magic whenever he wanted. that style of basketball is easy. all you need is good court vision. actually putting the ball in the hoops is the hard part

Playing a one man army style is easy mode. Kobe could've played like lebron or harden and racked up bigger stat lines dominating the ball but using a high level offense like the triangle makes the team better.

[ImKobe]

Playing a one man army style is easy mode. Kobe could've played like lebron or harden and racked up bigger stat lines dominating the ball but using a high level offense like the triangle makes the team better.

This. '03 season is the perfect example of it.

First 41 games: 28/8/7, more ball-dominant Lebron/Harden type offense, 5 triple-doubles & plenty of 10+ ast games, Lakers didn't have as much success offensively and go 19 - 22
Last 41 games: 32/6/5, more like 2nd 3-Peat MJ and they go 31 - 10, 9 straight games of 40+ and only broke off the streak to appease Shaq

Kobe was better and his teams generally did better when he played with a score-first mentality, especially since they were mostly top-heavy.

[theman93]

kobe was hitting 40 footers all year in 2013. the fact that he passed the ball at all was kind of just to show he could do it. Jordan was never the outside shooter kobe was and that probly played into his assist totals being higher in the 80s. when Jordan learned how to shoot he like kobe realized it's idiotic to pass and only did it when it was absolutely necessary

I'm still trying to understand your argument because you are all over the place. First it was because Jordan was the more willing passer (Jordan took more shots yet still averaged more assists and had a higher assist % so this isn't true), then it was highlight tapes (this can't be it since Jordan clearly also has a plethora), then it was because Jordan had a way higher usage (debunked), then it was because Kobe played at a way lower pace (debunked as shown by assist %), then it was less go to moves if a great defense could keep him out of the paint (debunked).

What is the argument?

[Micku]

Their usage was nearly equal (0.2 difference) and as for the difference in pace we can look at assist % to put it in it’s proper context:

1989 Jordan assist %: 34.7
2013 Kobe assist %: 29.7

If the defense was going to keep him outside the paint it was rare and would hardly have any effect on these numbers. 1989 was his highest fg%

Usage doesn't equal time of possession of the ball. Usage mostly means how much the offense runs through you. It calculates mostly on the FGA and FTA than how much you have the ball. Or at least it tries. Look at Magic or CP3 usage rate. They are lower than MJ and Kobe, even though they have the ball much longer. I know you are debating Orange_Cassidy tho. Usage rate isn't perfect at calculating how much the offense goes through a player either. It shouldn't have anything to do with passing or opportunities.

With that said, I would say MJ is the better passer imo. He knew when he didn't have a good shot and pass up the ball more often than Kobe did. Even though MJ shoot more, he was just quicker at getting to his spot. He didn't take as many dribbles as Kobe did. With his hands, he could fake passes easier and do some crazy moves with it. He was a better flashy passer and a bit better court vision. Although both aren't the best willing passers, MJ from what I seen, is a bit more willing passer than Kobe. Phil Jackson even said MJ is more willing to fit within the system and play more of a team game than Kobe was, but that was Kobe younger years.

They are still extremely similar. Both would rather shoot than pass. You'll often see MJ, especially in the early years, would drive and attempt to shoot over triple team than pass to the open man. Kobe would try to shoot a fadeaway jumper going out of bounds than to pass. In MJ defense, his teammates were couldn't buy an bucket even if they were open sometimes and Kobe had that too during his prime.

Still, imo, MJ was the better and more willing passer. Both could average more apg if they played more like Harden in today's era tho. When they played, the spacing wasn't nearly as good and there wasn't as much emphasis on shooting. I would say, MJ game was better suited for a drive and kick due to his superior athleticism in his younger days than Kobe. Kobe still had just as good footwork and extremely creative and crafty. Both played point guard for a spell, and they played well at it.

[72-10]

I'm still trying to understand your argument because you are all over the place. First it was because Jordan was the more willing passer (Jordan took more shots yet still averaged more assists and had a higher assist % so this isn't true), then it was highlight tapes (this can't be it since Jordan clearly also has a plethora), then it was because Jordan had a way higher usage (debunked), then it was because Kobe played at a way lower pace (debunked as shown by assist %), then it was less go to moves if a great defense could keep him out of the paint (debunked).

What is the argument?

In an era when credit for the assist wasn't awarded as easily, and with poorer shooting teammates, particularly in the late 80s, just watch the 89 playoffs against the Pistons for proof. Jordan was a far better and more willing passer than Kobe, and he improved his teammates much more than Kobe ever did.

[HunterSThompson]

neither could pass

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/MB19_5yuxkI3jDsu72PcqOSHa6kehlPXWsBiY4-G0POtetR-PAfJJo-srJgBFqdlgEaw2mBH4fvuGpQdKKubdIeYPRP79PIPGG9SvNqhe F7WMRq32uUXL_45167pIpmdL08f40S-BWodBcC1HGRf39d-96bS57Ck7sI