Why couldn't any teammates score well next to Jordan and Iverson?

[TheCorporation]

What could it be?

That they're both ball hogs with low IQ, low passing skills, and no leadership traits?

And why can great scorer/passer players maximize teammates? (Magic, LeBron)

[mehyaM24]

pippen was a pretty good scorer during the 1st three-peat. at the time, he basically outscored all other #2s while outplaying them in other areas as well. like playmaking and defense. we would have saw the same thing from 96-98, but pippen's injuries caught up to him - less scoring but equal or better defense.

its true that players around lebron score more though. wade wasn't much better in the playoffs than pippen although kyrie had big scoring numbers. ditto with davis. for all the "lebron makes stars worse" talk (ironic coming from jordan fans :oldlol:) they really do shine as well or better with him. yes, more-so than with jordan.

[3ball]

A player's career high is their peak capability

So Jordan's teammates played to capacity next to him because they achieved their highs alongside Jordan (or close to it).

Otoh, Lebron's teammates didn't achieve anywhere near their highs alongside Lebron, and therefore played far below capacity alongside him

Ultimately, it's a skill-deficit.. Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement, so lebron has a lottery record against the Spurs, Mavs and Warriors.

[FultzNationRISE]

pippen was a pretty good scorer during the 1st 3-peat. at the time, he basically outscored all other #2s while outplaying them in other areas too. like playmaking and defense. we would have saw the same thing from 96-98, but pippen's injuries caught up to him. less scoring but equal or defense.

its true that players around lebron score more though. wade wasn't much better in the playoffs than pippen although kyrie had big scoring numbers. ditto with davis. for all the "lebron makes stars worse" talk (ironic coming from jordan fans :oldlol:) they really do shine as well or better with him. yes, more-so than with jordan.


The thing with Pip is you could always see from watching him he was a monster scorer waiting to be unleashed, but he had to mute his offense in order to involve all the guys MJ was freezing out. Pip could have scored as much as MJ (on better efficiency) but then there would literally be no shots left, and it would have killed morale.

Pip was like the engine, while MJ was the hood ornament. Everyone sees the flashy hood ornament when you pull up, but without that driving force under the hood it would never move anywhere, aka his career in the 80s.

[Bronbron23]

What could it be?

That they're both ball hogs with low IQ, low passing skills, and no leadership traits?

And why can great scorer/passer players maximize teammates? (Magic, LeBron)

Nice troll thread. I can never tell if dudes like you are trolls or just don't actually watch ball. Maybe it's both.

Mj played in the triangle. He passed all the time he just didn't always get credit for it because he was often the first passer in a system that used multiple passes in their offensive sets.

And who on his team exactly should of scored more than did?

[HoopsNY]

What could it be?

That they're both ball hogs with low IQ, low passing skills, and no leadership traits?

And why can great scorer/passer players maximize teammates? (Magic, LeBron)

Actually, MJ was an excellent passer. He was a phenomenal playmaker between 1988-93. His passing instincts were incredible for most of the 90s as well. Just because you hate the guy doesn't mean you have to lie about him.

[mehyaM24]

The thing with Pip is you could always see from watching him he was a monster scorer waiting to be unleashed, but he had to mute his offense in order to involve all the guys MJ was freezing out. Pip could have scored as much as MJ (on better efficiency) but then there would literally be no shots left, and it would have killed morale.

Pip was like the engine, while MJ was the hood ornament. Everyone sees the flashy hood ornament when you pull up, but without that driving force under the hood it would never move anywhere, aka his career in the 80s.

monster scorer? not sure about that. playing today and in the right situation, he could peak at 27 ppg. to produce similar scoring numbers BACK THEN, he would've had to play with an uptempo squad - like the 80s nuggets.

pippen embraced the all-around role though. being just a volume scorer was never his thing.

[8Ball]

Actually, MJ was an excellent passer. He was a phenomenal playmaker between 1988-93. His passing instincts were incredible for most of the 90s as well. Just because you hate the guy doesn't mean you have to lie about him.

Jordan is as good as Kyrie Irving as a passer.

Nothing you write home about.


There are players like Ginobili that don't average as many assists as Kyrie nor Jordan but are superior passers than those 2. Jordan and Kyrie are not even on Manu Gino levels of passing, let alone GOATs like LeBron.

[Gohan]

I feel like this thread was made for me to post in it btw f op eat a dick. Two top 10 players of all time. Jordan being the goat actually

[Bronbron23]

The thing with Pip is you could always see from watching him he was a monster scorer waiting to be unleashed, but he had to mute his offense in order to involve all the guys MJ was freezing out. Pip could have scored as much as MJ (on better efficiency) but then there would literally be no shots left, and it would have killed morale.

Pip was like the engine, while MJ was the hood ornament. Everyone sees the flashy hood ornament when you pull up, but without that driving force under the hood it would never move anywhere, aka his career in the 80s.

Monster scorer? Wtf you on bro? He’s a good scorer. He was very athletic and great in transition. He had a decent set shot and ok mid game. He was kind of stiff though and didn't have crazy handles or alot of moves. He also didn't have an amazing first step to beat defenders in the half-court.

Pip was a solid scorer, good passer and rebounder and great defender. Saying he was a scoring monster is just stupid.

[Gohan]

Did that Mfer say he could score better than Jordan on better effiency? I’ve seen it all now

[mehyaM24]

Did that Mfer say he could score better than Jordan on better effiency? I’ve seen it all now

ya that's too far, but pippen would've been a better scorer elsewhere. chicago was one of the slowest paced teams and pippen deferred to jordan. its not crazy to think he would have seen significant boosts in points and shooting percent playing for a run and gun offense (while being the focal point). think of the nuggets, pacers or warriors - teams in the 90s that played little defense.

you're an iverson fan right? how fair do you think op's assessment is?

[TheCorporation]

Lotta long-winded yapping in here. So again, I ask, why couldn't any teammates score well next to Jordan and Iverson?

[2much_knowledge]

What could it be?

That they're both ball hogs with low IQ, low passing skills, and no leadership traits?

And why can great scorer/passer players maximize teammates? (Magic, LeBron)

Rent free...... i don't recall Carmelo having trouble scorimg and Jordan just didn't joined a high scoring opponent in free agency fool.

[Gohan]

ya that's too far, but pippen would've been a better scorer elsewhere. chicago was one of the slowest paced teams and pippen deferred to jordan. its not crazy to think he would have seen significant boosts in points and shooting percent playing for a run and gun offense (while being the focal point). think of the nuggets, pacers or warriors - teams in the 90s that played little defense.

you're an iverson fan right? how fair do you think op's assessment is?


I honestly think iverson could of won a chip if he would of left sixers in free agency like bron did. He’s completely off base I’m thinking he’s referring to jerry stackhouse couldn’t play with Jordan or iverson. Iverson can play off ball which is what some people forget

[TheCorporation]

Why is LeBron able to elevate players like Kyrie and Davis while ball hogs like MJ and Iverson diminish offensive teammates?

[mehyaM24]

I honestly think iverson could of won a chip if he would of left sixers in free agency like bron did. HeÂ’s completely off base IÂ’m thinking heÂ’s referring to jerry stackhouse couldnÂ’t play with Jordan or iverson. Iverson can play off ball which is what some people forget

depends on the team gohan. ai played with carmelo and a talented denver group back in 07/08 - but lost in the first round back to back years. heading into the 09 season, denver replaced iverson with billups and won more regular-season games. also made the WCF taking the lakers to 6. i'm not hating on dude, and know that carmelo didn't have a problem scoring alongside him. the championship stuff is where it gets murky though.

for iverson to lead a team to a championship, he would need absurd help. a headstrong coach like brown for one - of everyone iverson played under that's the one man who could reign him in. multiple QUALITY defenders in the front and backcourt (perimeter 3&d's with elite rebounders upfront) to hide ai on defense. also a pointguard like kidd or paul to help create more opportunities for his teammates. iverson was mostly a scorer so why not let him do what he does best? he's not the easiest guy to build around though. and to win, much less lead a team, a lot of things would have to go right.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan is as good as Kyrie Irving as a passer.

Nothing you write home about.


There are players like Ginobili that don't average as many assists as Kyrie nor Jordan but are superior passers than those 2. Jordan and Kyrie are not even on Manu Gino levels of passing, let alone GOATs like LeBron.

This is nonsense. Jordan's playmaking ability was far better than Kyrie's and his passing ability was far superior as well. I watched Manu for his entire career and he wasn't anywhere near the passer nor the playmaker Jordan was.

You're narrowing down Jordan's passing/playmaking ability to his 1998, 2001, and 2002 days. Sorry, but if you watched MJ in say, 1991, then you know how great of a playmaker and passer he actually was.

It comes as no surprise that you're a LeBron stan and never actually contribute anything meaningful to this forum, just blind rhetoric to prop up your idol.

[DoctorP]

whats this idiot OP talking about? Do Pippen and Kukoc ring a bell??

Hello?

McFly?

Its the 90s!!!

[HoopsNY]

Lotta long-winded yapping in here. So again, I ask, why couldn't any teammates score well next to Jordan and Iverson?

Pippen scored just fine. He was a 19-21 PPG scorer with MJ during his peak/prime years and 21-22 PPG without him.

Iverson played alongside Carmelo Anthony when he averaged 26 PPG and Melo was averaging 26 as well. In his early years, Stackhouse averaged 20-21 PPG alongside him, though they couldn't get along.

Iverson wasn't that great of a team player, but to think that the Sixers cast from the early 2000s could score at a meaningful clip is just laughable.

What did you expect, George Lynch and Eric Snow to light it up for 25-30 PPG? Those guys simply weren't capable of scoring. The same with guys like Armstrong, Grant, Kerr, Paxson, Longley, Cartwright, Rodman, Harper, etc. These guys weren't going to give you a consistent 20+ PPG per night.

What an ignorant thread.

[bizil]

The thing with Pip is you could always see from watching him he was a monster scorer waiting to be unleashed, but he had to mute his offense in order to involve all the guys MJ was freezing out. Pip could have scored as much as MJ (on better efficiency) but then there would literally be no shots left, and it would have killed morale.

Pip was like the engine, while MJ was the hood ornament. Everyone sees the flashy hood ornament when you pull up, but without that driving force under the hood it would never move anywhere, aka his career in the 80s.


LMAO!!!! Well when MJ went to play baseball, Pip's scoring average HARDLY CHANGED!!!! Before MJ went to baseball, the jury was STILL OUT on Pip's max scoring potential. From there, EVERBODY knew Pip wasn't an alpha dog scorer. There's A REASON WHY Pip was NEVER regarded as the GOAT SF! It's because his peak-prime value WASN'T on the level of a Bron or Bird. Even though has six rings and redefined the SF position. And from there creating initial blueprint of the modern day point forward. The SCORING PART is the reason why he was never the GOAT SF. His floor game (boards, dimes, defense) is among the best EVER at the SF. I would in the top 3. But his scoring was WAYYYY behind guys like Bron, Bird, Baylor, KD, Doc, etc. MANY TEAMS in history had multiple alpha dog scorers on them. MJ-Pip wasn't that type of combo.

[hateraid]

whats this idiot OP talking about? Do Pippen and Kukoc ring a bell??

Hello?

McFly?

Its the 90s!!!

McFly. Lol, classic

[Gimmedarock]

That why I love modern nba. You might have two guys go for 30. On a given night Bron could lead the team in scoring and then AD lead. Old school you had a main guy and then role players. Now you got main star plus other capable stars. Plus the old point guard system of always having the ball hurt guys. I like seeing different guys handle and create.

[TheCorporation]

Why is LeBron able to elevate players like Kyrie and Davis while ball hogs like MJ and Iverson diminish offensive teammates?

Guys?

[Spurs m8]

Guys?

You still on the daily meltdown, little guy

Try getting a life outside of LeBron..it may help you succeed.
Or at least not be a total failure

[TheCorporation]

You still on the daily meltdown, little guy

Try getting a life outside of LeBron..it may help you succeed.
Or at least not be a total failure

Soggy sao m8 has the audacity to claim that others are melting? :lol