Is Jokic better than Peak Dirk was right now?

[StrongLurk]

I know the league is different compared to 10-15 years ago, but Jokic is just having astonishing offensive production.

26/11/9 on 57/41/85, 31.5 PER, 131 ORTG, 11.9 BPM

This is a legendary regular season, but it's hard to compare this era to the mid-2000s.

He's basically Dirk with Lebron James passing ability. It's hilarious when people last year were trying to act like he wasn't a superstar when I've been saying since 2019 that Jokic is a CLEAR superstar, especially in the playoffs.

[Manny98]

Offensively, he's better than any big man ever

[dankok8]

I'm gonna say probably. Even taking the current stat inflation into account, Jokic is just such a superior passer that Dirk's edge in scoring can't beat.

[BigShotBob]

No because Dwight, McGee, and AD gave him fits. Meanwhile, prime (not even peak) Dirk eviscerated prime KG.

[hiphopanonymous]

10-15 years ago his efficiencies would be way down and he'd be scoring about 21-22ppg

His assists would still be crazy though which is worth consideration still for arguing superiority over Dirk

[tpols]

Yes... Hes basically Dirk with Larry Bird passing. One of the smartest and greatest players well ever see.

[tpols]

10-15 years ago his efficiencies would be way down and he'd be scoring about 21-22ppg

His assists would still be crazy though which is worth consideration still for arguing superiority over Dirk

What makes you say this? No reason for his productions to be down in the mid 2000s when everybody was dropping 25+ ppg.

[hiphopanonymous]

What makes you say this? No reason for his productions to be down in the mid 2000s when everybody was dropping 25+ ppg.
LeBron in 2004 was ranked 11th in scoring and that was good for 20ppg. Now he's ranked 14th and scoring 26ppg.

It was definitely different back then from what I can see. The top 5 of any given season seems about the same, but if you're only good enough to be ranking between 5 and 20 on scoring today your numbers look amazing right now but I bet would look different back then. The drop off was higher, for whatever reasons (probably defensive and offensive rules, etc). That's where Jokic falls as a scorer so I expect his numbers would look different back then. Not his rebounding or assists though.

[tpols]

LeBron in 2004 was ranked 11th in scoring and that was good for 20ppg. Now he's ranked 14th and scoring 26ppg.

It was definitely different back then from what I can see. The top 5 seem all about the same, but if you're only good enough to be ranking between 5 and 20 on scoring today your numbers look amazing right now but I bet would look different back then. The drop off was higher, for whatever reasons (probably defensive and offensive rules, etc).

Lebron in 2004 was a rookie lmao. 15 years ago to this day LeBron was averaging 31 ppg at only 20 years old. There's no basis to ever say jokic numbers would fall so dramatically in that era.

[hiphopanonymous]

Lebron in 2004 was a rookie lmao. 15 years ago to this day LeBron was averaging 31 ppg at only 20 years old. There's no basis to ever say jokic numbers would fall so dramatically in that era.

Jokic is 9th best today.

9th best in 2004 is Dirk. at 21.8ppg.

Yeah, he'd be 21-22ppg back then. He wouldn't be outscoring Dirk and I don't just make that judgement on rank alone those pretty overinflated numbers come from overspaced floors due to banned defenses and opened floodgate offenses of 3 step carry layups and 3-step stepback or moving screen 3's. The whole floor is spaced wide open today all because of things like these.

I don't care that LeBron was a rookie he was the 11th best scorer in the league at that time, and he's only the 14th best scorer right now. Who cares how young or old he is that's his rank and I doubt a guy ranked in top 5's are "worse" scorers than guys ranked 15-20 now which is how everything looks on paper. And who cares if Jokic is hitting 26 or 36ppg or even 46ppg right now - he's only the 9th best scorer in the NBA. I'd rather assume he'd be about 9th best back then than just believe his stats linearly match that's nonsense I know Dirks scoring repertoire is at least as good as Jokic's if not better. He can't pass even a fraction as good so Jokic is debatably even a MUCH better player. But Dirk sure could score, I'd argue even better.

[mehyaM24]

I don't care that LeBron was a rookie he was the 11th best scorer in the league at that time, and he's only the 14th best scorer right now. Who cares how young or old he is that's his rank

yup that's all there is to it :oldlol: who cares that he was a teenage rookie? if lebron is ranked 14th now, he's going to be ranked 14th then!

[dankok8]

21-22 ppg is too little for Jokic 15 years ago. 24ish ppg sounds more right but with 8 assists a game he's still an absolute offensive machine.

[RRR3]

yup that's all there is to it :oldlol: who cares that he was a teenage rookie? if lebron is ranked 14th now, he's going to be ranked 14th then!
:roll:

[NugzFan]

No because Dwight, McGee, and AD gave him fits. Meanwhile, prime (not even peak) Dirk eviscerated prime KG.


I love when laker fans try to sound smart
Adorable

[mehyaM24]

:roll:

apparently 18 year old lebron was a better scorer. better than he is NOW which is arguably best in the world and an mvp candidate.

afterall 11th place > 14th.

reading that is like listening to a 9 year old talk. not even trolling.

[Micku]

Gott'a see what he does in the playoffs. But regular season, yeah.

There are somethings that is hard to really access because they played in different eras and different rules. But one thing you can definitely tell is the passing. Jokic is a great passer. Probably the best big I ever seen did do it. Dude plays point center.

His skills are also great with the footwork and shooting touch. Peak Dirk could post up and is a better shooter, but Jokic isn't too shabby himself. Jokic has more moves he could throw at you.

But as I said, some stats could be inflated due to the era, but superstars like Jokic would find a way to make it right. His skills should translate across eras

[Akeem34TheDream]

apparently 18 year old lebron was a better scorer. better than he is NOW which is arguably best in the world and an mvp candidate.

afterall 11th place > 14th.

reading that is like listening to a 9 year old talk. not even trolling.

You clearly didn't understand his argument. He is not comparing eras. In fact he is making the assumption that 9th best scorer in the league today would also be around 9th best back then. You are clearly not that bright. That post wasn't even about Lebron. By his logic 08 Lebron(scoring leader) would be at the top or close to the top any year. I hope you understand after this breakdown. And we all know Lebron has been coasting in the regular season for years.

[mehyaM24]

You clearly didn't understand his argument. He is not comparing eras. In fact he is making the assumption that 9th best scorer in the league today would also be around 9th best back then. You are clearly not that bright. That post wasn't even about Lebron. By his logic 08 Lebron(scoring leader) would be at the top or close to the top any year. I hope you understand after this breakdown. And we all know Lebron has been coasting in the regular season for years.

you have no idea what you're talking about. in fact, you're agreeing with me :oldlol:

under that remedial line of thinking, 21 lebron would be ranked lower than teenage lebron. get it?

[clipps]

I think Prime Dirk was the better shooter and scorer. Jokic is the better passer and rebounder.

[Akeem34TheDream]

you have no idea what you're talking about. in fact, you're agreeing with me :oldlol:

under that remedial line of thinking, 21 lebron would be ranked lower than teenage lebron. get it?

He might be a more skilled scorer now but he was more aggressive back then. Because of the help he had(or didnt have). Two lebrons have completely different roles. Jokic right now and Prime Dirk back thenhave more similar roles and scoring responsibilities. So yes context still matters.

[mehyaM24]

you're arguing that a rookie lebron (20ppg) outscores this version? and for an ENTIRE season? you can't be serious right now.

[Dbrog]

21-22 ppg is too little for Jokic 15 years ago. 24ish ppg sounds more right but with 8 assists a game he's still an absolute offensive machine.

I see a lot of similarities to 2001 Chris Webber so i think 24ppg is about right. Agreed he would probably average slightly more dimes than Chris though

As for better than peak Dirk? I don't know how anyone can really say that since peak Dirk almost single-handedly won a chip against one of the most stacked teams ever and probably should have won in 06 too if it wasn't for the refs. Dirk was a volume scorer though which is why I find the Joker comparisons a bit off

[dankok8]

I see a lot of similarities to 2001 Chris Webber so i think 24ppg is about right. Agreed he would probably average slightly more dimes than Chris though

As for better than peak Dirk? I don't know how anyone can really say that since peak Dirk almost single-handedly won a chip against one of the most stacked teams ever and probably should have won in 06 too if it wasn't for the refs. Dirk was a volume scorer though which is why I find the Joker comparisons a bit off

Yep. I don't see very many similarities in their games.

[hiphopanonymous]

apparently 18 year old lebron was a better scorer. better than he is NOW which is arguably best in the world and an mvp candidate.

afterall 11th place > 14th.

reading that is like listening to a 9 year old talk. not even trolling.
Yes the guy who's young averaging top 10 league leading minutes that can't score as diversely will still be capable of matching or exceeding the ppg of the old guy who's body is breaking down but scores with improved skill on lesser minutes (now down to top 30).

This is how players age. Young guys can pile on points due to minutes and tenacity and explosiveness. Old guys can sometimes still pile on points with improved skill and better timing but they are slowed down - and so ultimately decline. 11th is better than 14th - in volume. It's just a rank of ppg vs league best nothing more.

[hiphopanonymous]

you have no idea what you're talking about. in fact, you're agreeing with me :oldlol:

under that remedial line of thinking, 21 lebron would be ranked lower than teenage lebron. get it?

21 year old LeBron was the 3rd most prolific scorer in his league. 18 year old LeBron was only the 11th most prolific scorer in his league. So no, 21 year old LeBron is not "ranked lower" than 18 year old LeBron nor even close do you seriously not understand my reasoning? I'm saying current LeBron (ranked as only 14th most prolific in this league) is probably only going to be floating around the 14th in any league as well. And guess what baby boy, that means his ppg would be lower back in 2004. Back down to other 14th ranked players which is about 20ppg.

It's far from perfect but still I believe that's a more reasonable or honest way of looking at players scoring output capability (what they did vs their peers) than raw ppg alone. The game changes too much to take raw ppg at face value. Unless of course you think Wilt is averaging 50 today?

Thought so.

[mehyaM24]

he's regressed, but you're acting like lebron has fallen of a cliff. there's no way a raw, green and rookie version outscores the MUCH better scorer.

the lakers would have to cut his minutes or pickup another star player.


18 year old LeBron was only the 11th most prolific scorer in his league. So no, 21 year old LeBron is not "ranked lower" than 18 year old LeBron nor even close

:facepalm

i'm talking about 2021 lebron. not him at 21 years old.

[hiphopanonymous]

:roll:
You don't even play basketball. What could you possibly understand about being the best at anything in any kind of league or how statistics would or wouldn't translate.

[ArbitraryWater]

We will see in the playoffs, but probably yes..

[hiphopanonymous]

he's regressed, but you're acting like lebron has fallen of a cliff. there's no way a raw, green and rookie version outscores the MUCH better scorer.

the lakers would have to cut his minutes or pickup another star player.



:facepalm

i'm talking about 2021 lebron. not him at 21 years old.

He played more minutes man - he was explosive. That's ALL YOU NEED to outscore a 35 year old that - I must correct myself - is now only the SEVENTEETH most prolific scorer in his league.


Stephen Curry
Bradley Beal
Joel Embiid
Damian Lillard
Luka Dončić
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Zach LaVine
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Zion Williamson
Nikola Jokić
Donovan Mitchell
Jayson Tatum
Kawhi Leonard
Devin Booker
Trae Young


ARE ALL more prolific scorers than LeBron right now. Zion freaking Williamson! Hasn't even played 80 games in his career yet. But you are thinking with your emotional intelligence not your logical intelligence so you are aghast at the idea of rookie LeBron producing more. But he did and he was arguably a better or comparable rookie at scoring amongst his peers than Zion was or is as a sophomore right now. Rookie LeBron produced points at a rate of 11th best vs the best players on the planet back in 2004. Current LeBron is 17th best he *could* conceivably score at a greater rate than his rookie self perhaps - if they were both put in the same league, but not with the effort he plays with right now. It would cost him greater effort than he puts into scoring right now. Rookie LeBron was a more prolific scorer than current LeBron in comparison to his peers. That's a fact. Don't be upset about it.

[mehyaM24]

compared to his rookie year, 21 lebron is visibly a more experienced and skilled scorer. grab a clue pal. the fact you're arguing this tells me you've missed most of his career.

[3ball]

I know the league is different compared to 10-15 years ago, but Jokic is just having astonishing offensive production.

26/11/9 on 57/41/85, 31.5 PER, 131 ORTG, 11.9 BPM

This is a legendary regular season, but it's hard to compare this era to the mid-2000s.

He's basically Dirk with Lebron James passing ability. It's hilarious when people last year were trying to act like he wasn't a superstar when I've been saying since 2019 that Jokic is a CLEAR superstar, especially in the playoffs.


Jokic's passing ability is FAR superior to Lebron's:



Time of Possession and APG

Jokic.......... 4.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) minutes hold time yielded 8.8 apg
Lebron..'..... 6.5 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) minutes hold time yielded 7.9 apg


Jokic gives teammates more time with the ball, so they produce more and have better teams with less talent - for example, Jokic/Murray pushed the champion Lakers last year, whereas Lebron's dribble-intensive brand would've been blown away by record amount with Jamaal Murray as a sidekick, versus a juggernaut where AD was a sidekick.

Ultimately, Lebron achieves assists in a dribble-intensive way that halts ball movement, while Jokic achieves assists without holding the ball long, so teammates can move the ball and have a better brand/team ceiling

[bizil]

The THING IS the ONLY THING Dirk did great was scoring. He was a good to very good rebounder. And very average passing and defense wise.

Joker (due to his evolution in scoring) is now a great scoring, rebounding, and passing center. He's DAMN CLOSE to being 50-40-90 while averaging 26.4 PPG. He's the BEST passing center ever. He shoots as well as any center ever as well. I would have said Dirk PRIOR to this year. But once Joker upped the ante scoring, I gotta go Joker. He's BASICALLY a 7'0 Larry Bird playing center!! In terms of his skill level and triple double shit. When u bring all that to the table, u gotta go Joker. Scoring wise, I would still take Dirk though.

[hiphopanonymous]

compared to his rookie year, 21 lebron is visibly a more experienced and skilled scorer. grab a clue pal. the fact you're arguing this tells me you've missed most of his career.

I swear you still don't understand that he's 35 and *can't play the relative amount of minutes he used to*

He is more skilled - yes. He'll score more efficiently. He rates higher in relative efficiency.

But he rates lower in relative amount of minutes, and relative points per game.

That's a fact man how you don't grasp this is beyond me. There's 16 guys scoring better than him right now - SIXTEEN! Many of them will be very forgettable as time goes by! There were only 10 guys ahead of rookie LeBron. He was more prolific vs his peers. Get it through your head that this doesn't mean more skilled - it just means more prolific. He was younger - he could work more aggressively at it and make up for any deficits in skill vs now. Rookie LeBron was way more explosive than current LeBron and I did see him from rookie season onwards.

If Rookie LeBron played today he'd average more points than current LeBron does. Not by skill, but by increased minutes and tenacity. And inversely, current LeBron time traveled to 2004 will get outscored by Rookie LeBron then. Because he can't score in greater volume than 16 guys today. Where as rookie LeBron could score in greater volume than all but 10 guys in his own era.

[3ball]

The THING IS the ONLY THING Dirk did great was scoring. He was a good to very good rebounder. And very average passing and defense wise.

Joker (due to his evolution in scoring) is now a great scoring, rebounding, and passing center. He's DAMN CLOSE to being 50-40-90 while averaging 26.4 PPG. He's the BEST passing center ever. He shoots as well as any center ever as well. I would have said Dirk PRIOR to this year. But once Joker upped the ante scoring, I gotta go Joker. He's BASICALLY a 7'0 Larry Bird playing center!! In terms of his skill level and triple double shit. When u bring all that to the table, u gotta go Joker.


I think Jokic averages a lot of points by being an extremely smart and confident player that can manipulate today's easy format better than anyone else.

I don't think he'd be as good in an era that lacked today's spacing format, where there weren't any kickouts for threes and iso repertoire/ability was king

[bizil]

Offensively, he's better than any big man ever

I would say FOR SURE skill for skill offensively he's the best center ever. When u factor his substantial jump in scoring, his overall scoring skillset, COMBINED with being the best passing center ever, u can make that case. OFFENSE for me can factor scoring and passing together. The havoc Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq could wreak on a defense (while different) make them the most devastating SCORERS ever at center. But scoring, passing, and SKILL combined, this version of Joker combines those elements AS WELL as any center!

[3ball]

I would say FOR SURE skill for skill offensively he's the best center ever. When u factor his substantial jump in scoring, his overall scoring skillset, COMBINED with being the best passing center ever, u can make that case. OFFENSE for me can factor scoring and passing together. The havoc Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq could wreak on a defense (while different) make them the most devastating SCORERS ever at center. But scoring, passing, and SKILL combined, this version of Joker combines those elements AS WELL as any center!


Nah, jokic is like everyone else - a product of the rules/format he's playing

he wouldn't be the same in another era

[mehyaM24]

I swear you still don't understand that he's 35 and *can't play the relative amount of minutes he used to*

He is more skilled - yes. He'll score more efficiently. He rates higher in relative efficiency.

But he rates lower in relative amount of minutes, and relative points per game.

That's a fact man how you don't grasp this is beyond me. There's 16 guys scoring better than him right now - SIXTEEN! Many of them will be very forgettable as time goes by! There were only 10 guys ahead of rookie LeBron. He was more prolific vs his peers. Get it through your head that this doesn't mean more skilled - it just means more prolific. He was younger - he could work more aggressively at it and make up for any deficits in skill vs now. Rookie LeBron was way more explosive than current LeBron and I did see him from rookie season onwards.

If Rookie LeBron played today he'd average more points than current LeBron does. Not by skill, but by increased minutes and tenacity. And inversely, current LeBron time traveled to 2004 will get outscored by Rookie LeBron then. Because he can't score in greater volume than 16 guys today. Where as rookie LeBron could score in greater volume than all but 10 guys in his own era.

lebron is 36.

your entire opinion is based on that half-baked "14=14" theory. :oldlol: literally. '21 lebron is bigger, stronger, smarter, more skilled and experienced. the athleticism TEENAGE lebron had isn't enough to compensate. again stop pretending he's a cripple now. dude is still VERY athletic. in last years playoffs, he averaged 28ppg. a rookie lebron isn't scoring 8 more points because he was ranked #11 in 2004 lol. but that's the extent of your analysis.

[tanibanana]

They are equally great in a very different way.
I’m taking peak Dirk as my franchise player though.
If I have a mediocre team, Dirk is the better option.
But if I have good team, between Dirk & Jokic, I will choose Jokic.

[light]

I know the league is different compared to 10-15 years ago, but Jokic is just having astonishing offensive production.

26/11/9 on 57/41/85, 31.5 PER, 131 ORTG, 11.9 BPM

This is a legendary regular season, but it's hard to compare this era to the mid-2000s.

He's basically Dirk with Lebron James passing ability. It's hilarious when people last year were trying to act like he wasn't a superstar when I've been saying since 2019 that Jokic is a CLEAR superstar, especially in the playoffs.

He's definitely a beast.

Bron has already beaten him in the playoffs.

I'm willing to bet that Jokic will never defeat LeBron in the playoffs, due to the fact that Jokic - like everyone else - cannot do as much as LeBron to win games. He can't influence the game at every step like LeBron does. He will have to wait until LeBron retires.

[StrongLurk]

I can't believe there are a few posters in here acting like Jokic isn't a volume scorer or a GREAT shooter.

Jokic is a 25ppg scorer in the playoffs with 51/42/84 splits. He can score the damn ball.

[Gruppenführer]

While it pains me to say, my countryman Dirk is not the athlete Jokic is. Better lethal shooter and scorer? Definitely Dirk. But Dirk had cement shoes.

[Gohan]

Lmao joking will never even be close to dirk. Y’all nikkas retarded. If dirk played now he’d be way better

[8Ball]

Jokic is better than peak Dirk ever was. There's no question here.


Jokic would be the best player in the 80s and 90s.

[8Ball]

lebron is 36.

your entire opinion is based on that half-baked "14=14" theory. :oldlol: literally. '21 lebron is bigger, stronger, smarter, more skilled and experienced. the athleticism TEENAGE lebron had isn't enough to compensate. again stop pretending he's a cripple now. dude is still VERY athletic. in last years playoffs, he averaged 28ppg. a rookie lebron isn't scoring 8 more points because he was ranked #11 in 2004 lol. but that's the extent of your analysis.

The argument is way too stupid but Hippo boy is going allin on it.

[ShawkFactory]

Jokic's passing ability is FAR superior to Lebron's:



Time of Possession and APG

Jokic.......... 4.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) minutes hold time yielded 8.8 apg
Lebron..'..... 6.5 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) minutes hold time yielded 7.9 apg




This is number of assists vs time with the ball. Not passing ability :lol

Furthermore, it makes sense that a big will dribble less than a PG. And the passing situations are completely different.

Next.

As for the actual topic: no. Dirk was a killer in the last couple minutes. I’ll need to see Jokic do that in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

You don't even play basketball. What could you possibly understand about being the best at anything in any kind of league or how statistics would or wouldn't translate.
Meltdown. Sure are grumpy lately, they not giving you good food at the senior center?

[999Guy]

Jokic is 9th best today.

9th best in 2004 is Dirk. at 21.8ppg.

Yeah, he'd be 21-22ppg back then. He wouldn't be outscoring Dirk and I don't just make that judgement on rank alone those pretty overinflated numbers come from overspaced floors due to banned defenses and opened floodgate offenses of 3 step carry layups and 3-step stepback or moving screen 3's. The whole floor is spaced wide open today all because of things like these.

I don't care that LeBron was a rookie he was the 11th best scorer in the league at that time, and he's only the 14th best scorer right now. Who cares how young or old he is that's his rank and I doubt a guy ranked in top 5's are "worse" scorers than guys ranked 15-20 now which is how everything looks on paper. And who cares if Jokic is hitting 26 or 36ppg or even 46ppg right now - he's only the 9th best scorer in the NBA. I'd rather assume he'd be about 9th best back then than just believe his stats linearly match that's nonsense I know Dirks scoring repertoire is at least as good as Jokic's if not better. He can't pass even a fraction as good so Jokic is debatably even a MUCH better player. But Dirk sure could score, I'd argue even better.

Jokic is at the slowest pace in the league. He’s at mid 00’s pace.

Anyway, he’s at the top of the league on efficiency too. Crazy high TS% and low TOV rate.

The guy is at GOAT PER levels. PER inherently adjusts for league environment. He’s having an insane season on production.

And on the topic, clearly clearly better than Dirk. Dirk is lacking in clear advantages big time. Meanwhile he gets blown out as a passer.

Dirk is absolutely NOT a better scorer either BTW. He’s rarely had seasons this efficient. Especially while play making.


Realistically if Jokic played dirk’s lower responsibility offensive style he’d easily be in the 30’s points.