Jokic and Embiid numbers (by rank) in 1995s Hakeem vs Robinson MVP race

[hiphopanonymous]

Two MVP caliber centers today, time warped back to the last time two centers battled for MVP but with normalizing their numbers based on how they rank among peers back to 1995 numbers. Let's take a look at a few of the top centers (and Zo in the mix to see where a very solid but not great one falls) and discuss:


MVP Robinson: 27.6ppg, 10.8rpg, 2.8apg, 3.2bpg, 1.7spg, and .602 TS%
Ranked 3rd ppg, 8th rpg, 61st apg, 4th bpg, 13th spg, 31st in TS%

Olajuwon: 27.8ppg, 10.8rpg, 3.5apg, 3.4bpg, 1.8spg, and .563 TS%
Ranked 2nd ppg, 7th rpg, 47th apg, 2nd bpg, 9th spg, 101st in TS%

Ewing: 23.9ppg, 11rpg, 2.7apg, 2.0bpg, 0.9spg, and 0.555 TS%
Ranked 6th ppg, 4th rpg, 68th apg, 8th bpg, 72nd spg 125th in TS%

O'Neal: 29.3ppg, 11.4rpg, 2.7apg, 2.4bpg, 0.9spg, and 0.588 TS%
Ranked 1st ppg, 3rd rpg, 67th apg, 6th bpg, 71st spg and 51st in TS%

Zo: 21.3ppg, 9.9rpg, 1.4apg, 2.9bpg, 0.6spg, and .593 TS%
Ranked 14th ppg, 13th rpg, 115th apg, 5th bpg 112th spg, and 44th in TS%

Rank-adjusted Jokic: 21.8ppg, 10.6rpg, 8.8apg, 0.3bpg, and 0.593 TS%
(actual 2021) 26.4ppg, 11.1rpg, 8.8apg, 0.6bpg, 1.4spg, and 0.646 TS%
Ranked 11th in scoring, 10th rpg, 4th apg, 101th bpg, 20th spg, and 43rd in TS%

Rank-adjusted Embiid: 27.6ppg, 10.8rpg, 1.6apg, 1.7bpg, and 0.588 TS%
(actual 2021) 29.9ppg, 11.2rpg 3.1apg 1.4bpg, 1.0spg, and 0.638 TS%
Ranked 3rd in scoring, 8th rpg, 103rd apg, 15th bpg, 73rd spg, and 49th in TS%

I know rank adjustments are far from perfect (for example, I'd bet Jokic and Embiid would chase more shot blocking stats and attempt to rank higher in such a stat in a league that tolerated defensive contact far greater than it does today). But it is interesting to see that Jokic's assists are still incredible - their TS% very well would likely be lower like those numbers vs what they are today with the wide open layup and 3 game of today vs the crowded paint style of that era. What do you guys think - if they time warped back then would they be battling for an MVP spot against Olajuwon and Robinson back then?

[mehyaM24]

why do you continue to "normalize" numbers with ranking? two different leagues. ignores the adjustment for possession too.

[hiphopanonymous]

why do you continue to "normalize" numbers based on where they rank? this ignores the adjustment for possessions...in two different leagues.
Adjustments by possessions is no less flawed.

The looks players get nowadays is totally different "per possession" - that's why efficiencies are so high. Banned defensive rules and wide open offensive rules make per possession adjustments impossible. I personally believe it's better to see where players rank among their peers as a sign of how hungry and able-bodied they are to achieve that level among others competing for that level. Of course it's not perfect as I mentioned I bet the rule changes would have changed Embiid or Jokic's incentive of blocked shot efforts for example. Just as it would have reduced their 3 point shot efforts. The 3 point shot effort reduction is probably well accounted for in their TS and PPG rankings though. Unlike the block per game ranking.

[SouBeachTalents]

why do you continue to "normalize" numbers with ranking? two different leagues. ignores the adjustment for possession too.
Also ignores minutes played, Embiid averages 32 mpg, all the guys he referenced were at 37-40

[hiphopanonymous]

Also ignores minutes played, Embiid averages 32 mpg, all the guys he referenced were at 37-40

It doesn't "ignore" any of that - it goes by the principal of how able a guy is to climb the ranks in his own era as if that were the best way to imagine how he'd climb the ranks in a different era.

Minutes didn't need to be accounted for. Jokic is 12th Embiid is 54th - so what? Hakeem was 5th, Zo 11th, Robinson 15th, Ewing and Shaq 24th and 25th - and I'm going by the principal that Jokic and Embiid are more likely to simply rank 12th and 54th back then as opposed to going by their raw numbers from two totally different leagues.

It's how able you are to compete vs peers. Adjusting based on how well you do vs competitors is what I'm doing precisely BECAUSE the leagues are different.

[mehyaM24]

adjusting for 100 (teams now average roughly 8 more possessions) is more useful than simply saying "#1 today is x then". too convluded and you're not normalizing anything doing that. sure the rules NOW are more offensive-friendly, but removing the 8 extra possessions helps. a lot.


Also ignores minutes played, Embiid averages 32 mpg, all the guys he referenced were at 37-40

good point.

[hiphopanonymous]

Look have you guys never played in different leagues yourselves?

I don't compete for arbitrary stats that match my stats from a prior league if I switch leagues. It's more like I'm competing for spot as top dog vs the new leagues best - top scoring spots, or top rebounding, or top whatever helps my team win. I might score 18ppg in one league, but due to calls being made differently or rules I may spike to 22ppg or dip to 15ppg. Unless the competition is vastly inferior or superior though, I didn't change my rank even though my numbers all changed - I'd be the teams best scorer and among the league leaders either way. EVERYONE'S production is weighted by the same conditions that either lowered or boosted my own stats.

No this isn't a perfect way of analyzing things at all but those of you saying "but so and so played more minutes - or per possession stats" don't get it. This is simply an adjustment of how competitive you are amongst peers. Like I said not perfect, but it's pretty easy to understand. Great scorers can segway from one league to another but it isn't a linear "30ppg" every single time they transition just because that was what they got in one league. This sort of assumes the competition was as great in 1995 as it is now - but just a different culture or brand of basketball. Thus, a 15th ranked scorer today becomes a 15th ranked scorer then. Or 15th ranked minutes per game is 15th ranked minutes per game. Etc. Of course this bluntly glosses over any nuance at all and is very flawed. But - I do tend to think it's better than saying "hey this guy scored 25 points this guy scored 21" (meanwhile they are both ranked 10 in scoring and thus actually, about the same competitively). Same can be said for minutes, or whatever.

[mehyaM24]

Look have you guys never played in different leagues yourselves?

what does that have to with anything? ya actually i have. but this is dumb and random :oldlol: nothing in your op is rocket science. you're simply saying "x now = x then". a 5th grader can do that.

[hiphopanonymous]

what does that have to with anything? ya actually i have. but this is dumb and random :oldlol: nothing in your op is rocket science. you're simply saying "x now = x then". a 5th grader can do that.
Yes exactly, simple. I'm assuming guys who tend to be among the best percentile in one league would be more likely to simply match or fit into that percentile in another (as opposed to just keeping their numbers). Less likely to match the stats. More likely to match the percentile among competitors. Better than comparing raw stats IMHO.

[warriorfan]

This is some autistic shit right here.

[hiphopanonymous]

This is some autistic shit right here.
Your idea of a flex was ashtrays and drugs on a filthy looking table. Don't call anyone autistic.