3Ball Stumbles Into Undermining MJ Yet Again...

[Ainosterhaspie]

In the Pippen vs Love thread, 3ball makes an unforced error by claiming "everyone loses their first couple years". Oops.

As anyone with knowledge of basketball history knows and almost immediately will recall, half the top 10 ATG's* won titles in their first or second year: Russell, Jabar, Magic, Bird and Duncan all managed this.

On top of this, Olijuan, James, Shaq and Wilt all won playoff series by year three at the latest, and Olijuan, Shaq and James were all in the finals no later than year four.

Looking at the top 10 list, Jordan stands out as the only player to not win a series in his first three years, the only one other than Wilt to not make the finals by year four and he's behind half the top 10 in not winning a title by year two.

Other than perhaps Wilt (and that's being generous), Jordan had the slowest start as far as team success of any player in the top 10. Obviously there are mitigating circumstances for MJ, but it seems like a blunder to bring up early success or lack thereof in comparison to other ATGs when discussing Jordan's legacy.

*Top 10 for purposes of this discussion: Russell, Wilt, Jabar, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James. Others may have slightly different top 10, but this is a fairly standard top 10 list.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi is the only one in this era to win a ring in his first three years i think. Harden had a perfect opportunity in his third year and was on a more talented\in prime team then Kawhi was.

Durant failed

Nobody really knew who Curry was until 2015 when Draymond started getting major minutes.

[3ball]

You misquoted me

I said that if a player isn't drafted to a good team, they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play

By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'

[Ainosterhaspie]

I didn't misquote you. That's exactly what you said and I screen shot it so don't bother changing to pretend you said something else. You can back peddle all you want, but that's what you said. And it doesn't even matter what you said exactly. You screwed up and raised to interesting point about early success, or lack thereof, and Jordan has the worst initial success out of all top 10 players.

[GrayGoat]

If there is no Pip? Then there is no Chip

[Ainosterhaspie]

If there is no Pip? Then there is no Chip
That's a stretch. MJ was too good not to win at some point, even if it took him longer than every other top 10 ATG.

[ArbitraryWater]

You know how they say

[ArbitraryWater]

No Pip

[ArbitraryWater]

No Chip

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No Pip

Also for Stephen Curry

"No Dray no Trey"

If you didn't have Draymond, you wouldn't have any rings and people wouldn't even remember that you shoot 3's. You would be like your brother Seth, a nice little role player.

[tontoz]

You misquoted me

I said that if a player isn't drafted to a good team, they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play

By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'


Bird was drafted by a 29 win team. Then won 61 in his rookie year and won a title his 2nd year.

[8Ball]

In the Pippen vs Love thread, 3ball makes an unforced error by claiming "everyone loses their first couple years". Oops.

As anyone with knowledge of basketball history knows and almost immediately will recall, half the top 10 ATG's* won titles in their first or second year: Russell, Jabar, Magic, Bird and Duncan all managed this.

On top of this, Olijuan, James, Shaq and Wilt all won playoff series by year three at the latest, and Olijuan, Shaq and James were all in the finals no later than year four.

Looking at the top 10 list, Jordan stands out as the only player to not win a series in his first three years, the only one other than Wilt to not make the finals by year four and he's behind half the top 10 in not winning a title by year two.

Other than perhaps Wilt (and that's being generous), Jordan had the slowest start as far as team success of any player in the top 10. Obviously there are mitigating circumstances for MJ, but it seems like a blunder to bring up early success or lack thereof in comparison to other ATGs when discussing Jordan's legacy.

*Top 10 for purposes of this discussion: Russell, Wilt, Jabar, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James. Others may have slightly different top 10, but this is a fairly standard top 10 list.

The question you should ask yourself is.

Are you surprised?

[Ainosterhaspie]

The question you should ask yourself is.

Are you surprised?
Surprised about what? That 3ball screwed up or that Jordan is alone among the top 10 in failing to have team success early? The latter actually did surprise me. Hadn't noticed it before. Obviously was aware it took him four years to win a series and seven to win a title, but hadn't put together that every other top 10 won series sooner, most went to the finals sooner and half won titles sooner. That was a bit of a shock honestly.

[tontoz]

OP BTW it's Olajuwon lol. In the future maybe just roll with Hakeem or the Dream.

[3ball]

Bird was drafted by a 29 win team. Then won 61 in his rookie year and won a title his 2nd year.


Everyone knows that Bird is a rare exception, which contributes to his goat case

But the exception proves the rule - if a player isn't drafted to a good team, they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play

By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'

[8Ball]

Surprised about what? That 3ball screwed up or that Jordan is alone among the top 10 in failing to have team success early? The latter actually did surprise me. Hadn't noticed it before. Obviously was aware it took him four years to win a series and seven to win a title, but hadn't put together that every other top 10 won series sooner, most went to the finals sooner and half won titles sooner. That was a bit of a shock honestly.

It's not a screw up.

He has no true beliefs so he will twist and lie every argument he can for his own self entertainment.

Like a clown at the parc every day.

Are you surprised? I'm not. It's just amusement to me to humiliate the clown for a few minutes of out my day.

[3ball]

Bird was drafted by a 29 win team. Then won 61 in his rookie year and won a title his 2nd year.


Everyone knows that Bird is an exception that had a frontcourt david robinson effect - crazy shit which contributes to his goat case





Bird was drafted by a 29 win team. Then won 61 in his rookie year and won a title his 2nd year.


But the Bird exception proves the rule - if a player isn't drafted to a good team, they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play:



* By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

* By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

* By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'

[8Ball]

Wrong. Jordan is the exception.

The only one that is 1-9 without at least someone as good as Dwyane Wade to save him

[3ball]

Wrong. Jordan is the exception.

The only one that is 1-9 without at least someone as good as Dwyane Wade to save him


2016 Finals

Curry..... 22.6.. 4.9.. 3.7.. 40.6%


Should a team be expected to win if their #1 option is getting Larry Hughes numbers and getting demolished?

Does beating that with a super-team and equal-scoring partner deserve goat accolade?

[8Ball]

2016 Finals

Curry..... 22.6.. 4.9.. 3.7.. 40.6%


Should a team be expected to win if their #1 option is getting Larry Hughes numbers and getting demolished?

Does beating that with a super-team and equal-scoring partner deserve goat accolade?

Curry was unanimous MVP that year and ran into LeBron who was too much for Curry physically and mentally.

Only against LeBron did Curry ever average that in a playoff series after 2015. Therefore LeBron gets the credit for outplaying the NBA's only ever unanimous MVP. GOAT.

When did Jordan face the unanimous MVP? Never.

[3ball]

Curry was unanimous MVP that year and ran into LeBron who was too much for Curry physically and mentally.

When did Jordan face the unanimous MVP and outplay him?

Never.


There's only been 1 unanimous mvp, and he was outplayed by Kyrie, who was guarding him.

It's impossible to lose if your sidekick reduces the opposing #1 option from Jordan-level to Larry Hughes

[8Ball]

Wrong.

1st Option vs 1st Option.

LeBron humiliated Curry that series physically and mentally.

LeBron took down the unanimous MVP and outplayed him.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Wrong.

1st Option vs 1st Option.

LeBron humiliated Curry that series physically and mentally.

LeBron took down the unanimous MVP and outplayed him.

Don't let him coax this thread into being about something other than Jordan being the slowest top 10 ATG to achieve post season success.

[8Ball]

Don't let him coax this thread into being about something other than Jordan being the slowest top 10 ATG to achieve post season success.

Jordan's mystique is a lot like Steph Curry right now.

Every one is in awe and gushing all over what Curry is doing "all by himself", yet he is the 9th seed right now. Will get bounced out in the first round, and then we can apply the Jordan 1-9 excuse "everyone gets bounced in the first round" as cream to the burn.

Meanwhile LeBron with a bunch of nobodies in 2009 and 2010 wins 66 and 62 games.

[3ball]

Jordan's mystique is a lot like Steph Curry right now.

Every one is in awe and gushing all over what Curry is doing "all by himself", yet he is the 9th seed right now. Will get bounced out in the first round, and then we can apply the Jordan 1-9 excuse "everyone gets bounced in the first round" as cream to the burn.

Meanwhile LeBron with a bunch of nobodies in 2009 and 2010 wins 66 and 62 games.


Jordan and Curry needed nothing to make the 2nd Round except a rebounder (Oakley or David Lee).

Otoh, Lebron needed a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the future COY and a top rebounding/defensive team.. that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning, while Curry/Jordan have nothing in a conference that requires star casts to win.

Btw, Lebron's 2009 team had the #3 defense and a sidekick with superior BPM, VORP, PER and BPM to 90' Pippen.. and then another teammate (jamison) with higher PER and WS/48 than 90' Pippen.

[Smoke117]

Jordan and Curry needed nothing to make the 2nd Round except a rebounder (Oakley or David Lee).

Otoh, Lebron needed a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the future COY and a top rebounding/defensive team.. that's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning, while Curry/Jordan have nothing in a conference that requires star casts to win.

Btw, Lebron's 2009 team had the #3 defense and a sidekick with superior BPM, VORP, PER and BPM to 90' Pippen.. and then another teammate (jamison) with higher PER and WS/48 than 90' Pippen.

No Pip, No Chip. 1-9

[3ball]

No Pip, No Chip. 1-9


Lebron's playoff teams were all developed, high seeds with good casts relative to the weak conference

Otoh, when he had young, rookie casts like 1-9 Jordan, he was lottery in 2019, 2005, and 2004

[Ainosterhaspie]

Quick recap to keep thread on topic.

Top 10 ATGs who won titles in their first two years: Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kareem.

Top 10 ATGs who made it to the finals in their first 4 years: Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Top 10 ATGs who won playoff series in their first three seasons: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Jordan is the only top 10 ATG who didn't manage any of these things.

[GrayGoat]

Thread Cliffs:

If there is no Pippen then MJ ain’t chip’ n

[8Ball]

Quick recap to keep thread on topic.

Top 10 ATGs who won titles in their first two years: Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kareem.

Top 10 ATGs who made it to the finals in their first 4 years: Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Top 10 ATGs who won playoff series in their first three seasons: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Jordan is the only top 10 ATG who didn't manage any of these things.

The next question to ask:

WHY?

[Ainosterhaspie]

Or we could use the 3ball method and just leave this apparently damning factoid without considering context, and act as if it has some broad, very important relevance. I could draw a completely unrelated conclusion from this along the lines of "this proves MJ would have lost to the 2011 Mavericks if in James' position, therefore since Jordan also would have lost the series, LeBron is the GOAT over MJ".

[3ball]

.
3ball's compromise with the OP


if a player isn't drafted to a good team, then they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play

By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'

[8Ball]

There is no compromise.

Undisputed facts:


Quick recap to keep thread on topic.

Top 10 ATGs who won titles in their first two years: Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Kareem.

Top 10 ATGs who made it to the finals in their first 4 years: Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Top 10 ATGs who won playoff series in their first three seasons: Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, James.

Jordan is the only top 10 ATG who didn't manage any of these things.

[Axe]

It's simple tbh. Baldan did not have a stacked team back then until he had phil jackson and scottie pippen by his side, along with some role players as well. Mj stans won't acknowledge it tho.

Why does common sense not sound so common anymore? :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

It's simple tbh. Baldan did not have a stacked team back then until he had phil jackson and scottie pippen by his side, along with some role players as well. Mj stans won't acknowledge it tho.

Why does common sense not sound so common anymore? :confusedshrug:


The 90' bulls were considered the biggest 1-man team in history that required the use of special Jordan Rules and luck for a dynasty to beat them

The 90' Bulls infact nearly won the title despite a less productive cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs (#19 defense and less offensive teammates).. Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy

Since the 90' Bulls cast was less productive on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, we know that Jordan's 91-98' Bulls weren't much better, and were therefore amazing carry-jobs

[Axe]

The 90' bulls were considered the biggest 1-man team in history that required the use of special Jordan Rules and luck for a dynasty to beat them
Except i didn't mention anything about the 90s bulls but what you are trying to suggest is outright delusional though which is no surprise given that you stan your hero so much. He's had the help he needed during that time, you imbecile. And the thought of not being to work with them anymore due to krause's ego was a big factor that led him to his second retirement.

[3ball]

Except i didn't mention anything about the 90s bulls but what you are trying to suggest is outright delusional though which is no surprise given that you stan your hero so much. He's had the help he needed during that time, you imbecile. And the thought of not being to work with them anymore due to krause's ego was a big factor that led him to his second retirement.


The 90' Bulls nearly won the title despite a less productive cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs (#19 defense and less offensive teammates).. Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy

Since the 90' cast was less productive on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, we know the 91-98' Bulls weren't much better, and were therefore amazing carry-jobs..

Ultimately, the 1st three-peat bulls were 100% viewed as a 1-man team, and over time people simply got jaded by the winning spotlight

[Axe]

I get a copypasta response after a minute, wtf. :facepalm

[3ball]

I get a copypasta response after a minute, wtf. :facepalm


You said the bulls cast was stacked... It never was because the 90' cast was worse on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs, and the 91-98' bulls were only marginally better

Carry on.. oh wait.. copy paste incoming

Ultimately, the 90' Bulls nearly won the title despite a less productive cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs (#19 defense and less offensive teammates).. Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy

[FireDavidKahn]

That's a stretch. MJ was too good not to win at some point, even if it took him longer than every other top 10 ATG.

MJ's teams never had a winning record unless Pip was on it.

In 5 seasons throughout MJ's career where Pippen wasn't on his team they have ALL had losing records.

No Pip no winning record.

[3ball]

MJ's teams never had a winning record unless Pip was on it.

In 5 seasons throughout MJ's career where Pippen wasn't on his team they have ALL had losing records.

No Pip no winning record.


You're only knocking Jordan when he was a puppy or fossil, even though no one gets knocked for losing at 40 and everyone that doesn't get drafted by a good team loses in their first few years (Giannis, Durant, Lebron, Curry, etc).

Ultimately, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas were lottery, and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'.. That's easily enough help to compete in a weak conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan just had a rebounder (oakley) in a conference that required a super-team to win.

Btw, the 90' Bulls nearly won the title despite a less productive cast on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs (#19 defense and less offensive teammates across the board).. Otoh, prime Lebron needed a much better cast than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy

[2much_knowledge]

Not the same. Jordan missed over 60 games the 2nd year , and when he did play, was on a 15 minute limit per game. Because of this restriction, Chicago ended up facing one of the best teams ever, first round

No time restrictions, no 8th seed. Is that simple.

Reply all the nonsense you want, won't change the truth

[Ainosterhaspie]

Let's stay on topic gents. One of the notable characteristics of a top 10 all time great is that no matter how bad the team he is drafted onto is, he'll start winning playoff series by year three* and reach the finals by year four**. I want to thank 3ball for helping identify this trend.

*Jordan being the sole exception.
**Jordan and Wilt are the two exceptions here.

[3ball]

Let's stay on topic gents. One of the notable characteristics of a top 10 all time great is that no matter how bad the team he is drafted onto is, he'll start winning playoff series by year three* and reach the finals by year four**. I want to thank 3ball for helping identify this trend.

*Jordan being the sole exception.
**Jordan and Wilt are the two exceptions here.


you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he was hurt ..

but during his 3rd healthy season (88'), he made the 2nd Round like 3rd year Lebron (06')..

in his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs with a low seed (30 on 46%), while lebron's developed, high seed was getting swept (22 on 36%).

And from their 5th healthy season onwards, Jordan destroys lebron (6/6)




Let's stay on topic gents. One of the notable characteristics of a top 10 all time great is that no matter how bad the team he is drafted onto is, he'll start winning playoff series by year three* and reach the finals by year four**. I want to thank 3ball for helping identify this trend.

*Jordan being the sole exception.
**Jordan and Wilt are the two exceptions here.


If if we do a statistical breakdown of 85-87' Jordan vs 05-07' Lebron, we see that Jordan destroys Lebron, especially in the playoffs, but his team gets nowhere because he's carrying an accolade-less, 8 seed in a super-team conference, while Lebron has well-developed, high seeds in a 1-star team conference




Let's stay on topic gents. One of the notable characteristics of a top 10 all time great is that no matter how bad the team he is drafted onto is, he'll start winning playoff series by year three* and reach the finals by year four**. I want to thank 3ball for helping identify this trend.

*Jordan being the sole exception.
**Jordan and Wilt are the two exceptions here.


the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas were lottery in 05', and needed to acquire a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the playoffs in 06'..

That's easily enough help to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan just had a rebounder (oakley) in a conference that required a super-team to win

[Ainosterhaspie]

That brings up another intriguing concept. Thanks 3ball. You are an inspiration.

Another noteworthy similarity shared by each* of the top 10 greatest players ever is that every single one of them* had winning records no later than their second season.

*Jordan stands alone as the sole top 10 player to not have a winning season by year two. He was not able to accomplish this basic feat until year four.

[Sportal]

3ball, why do you make such a glaring exception for your idol but not for others??

[2much_knowledge]

It's simple tbh. Baldan did not have a stacked team back then until he had phil jackson and scottie pippen by his side, along with some role players as well. Mj stans won't acknowledge it tho.

Why does common sense not sound so common anymore? :confusedshrug:

Why not acknowledge it when its the truth? Jordan was a one man wrecking crew since day one. Heck, since the 84 olympics. But the Doug collins iso ball style was never gonna cut it and phil preaching team ball and the arrival of pippen and horace is what made the difference some seasons later. Anyone who doesn't know this has been living under a rock

[2much_knowledge]

MJ's teams never had a winning record unless Pip was on it.

In 5 seasons throughout MJ's career where Pippen wasn't on his team they have ALL had losing records.

No Pip no winning record.

Was drafted in 87, thats his 4th season. If your gonna talk sh!t at least he your facts right

[Axe]

Why not acknowledge it when its the truth? Jordan was a one man wrecking crew since day one. Heck, since the 84 olympics. But the Doug collins iso ball style was never gonna cut it and phil preaching team ball and the arrival of pippen and horace is what made the difference some seasons later. Anyone who doesn't know this has been living under a rock
If that's true, then he could have done better than 1-9.

[2much_knowledge]

If that's true, then he could have done better than 1-9.

You are weird. I just agreed with what you said.

What you mean if? Haven't you seen any Jordan movie, thats exactly how it went down

Anyway. Those teams went for a combined 185 - 61 record. You're asking too much for a guy with no team

[AussieSteve]

You misquoted me

I said that if a player isn't drafted to a good team, they lose in their first couple years like Giannis, Curry, Lebron or KD

And you can't count Jordan's 2nd season because he didn't play

By his 3rd healthy season (1988), he was making the 2nd Round just like 3rd year Lebron (2006).

By his 4th healthy season (89'), he was nearly beating the champs (30 on 46%), while Lebron was swept (22 on 36%).

By his 5th and 6th healthy season, he was winning the title, while Lebron got carried against the 08' Celtics and lost as the favorite in 09' and 10'

Jordan got out of the first round for the first time at age 25 and made his first finals at 28.

LeBron made the finals at age 22.

[Axe]

You are weird. I just agreed with what you said.

What you mean if? Haven't you seen any Jordan movie, thats exactly how it went down

Anyway. Those teams went for a combined 185 - 61 record. You're asking too much for a guy with no team
You said he was a one-man wrecking crew since day one and him could have done better than 1-9 was my response to that, simp.