Jordan Rules Weren't a Big Deal

[Ainosterhaspie]

Strong defensive team schemes to try to stop other team's best player. Only time that's happened in NBA history so let's give it a name and act like it's some mythical response.

Celtics never did that with Wilt. The league never did that with Shaq. Spurs never did that with LeBron. Raptors didn't do that with Giannis. Nope. In all of NBA history Jordan is the unique player who was successfully schemed against for a while.

Also shocking is that the Pistons came up with a game plan to try to stop and elite scorer from scoring. Wow, that's a revelation. What unmatched genius could have come up with that plan.

[Bronbron23]

Strong defensive team schemes to try to stop other team's best player. Only time that's happened in NBA history so let's give it a name and act like it's some mythical response.

Celtics never did that with Wilt. The league never did that with Shaq. Spurs never did that with LeBron. Raptors didn't do that with Giannis. Nope. In all of NBA history Jordan is the unique player who was successfully schemed against for a while.

Also shocking is that the Pistons came up with a game plan to try to stop and elite scorer from scoring. Wow, that's a revelation. What unmatched genius could have come up with that plan.

Back then no. you could never use the jordan rules now. The team would be fouled out by halftime.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan Rules was about a lot more than playing physical which by the way is a standard response to dealing with a highly skilled player employed by teams in multiple sports. If you can't stop him straight up, make it physical. This is basic stuff.

And Jordan had one of the friendliest whistles ever. One of the reasons I underrated him when he played. It got to the point where it seemed like breathing on him was as likely as not to be called a foul.

[mehyaM24]

a big deal was jordan and his bulls making the league institute flagrant fouls. which made the "jordan rules" obsolete. chicago would still win championships but the flagrant/technical stuff aided them along the way.

[8Ball]

Strong defensive team schemes to try to stop other team's best player. Only time that's happened in NBA history so let's give it a name and act like it's some mythical response.

Celtics never did that with Wilt. The league never did that with Shaq. Spurs never did that with LeBron. Raptors didn't do that with Giannis. Nope. In all of NBA history Jordan is the unique player who was successfully schemed against for a while.

Also shocking is that the Pistons came up with a game plan to try to stop and elite scorer from scoring. Wow, that's a revelation. What unmatched genius could have come up with that plan.

Teams beat the living shit out of Shaq for 2 decades. Hard fouls. Double teams. Everything. Didn't stop him.


Only reason a book could be written about Jordan getting hard fouled (like everyone else) was because it would sell.

[Shooter]

LeBron gets mauled every drive to the basket. Refs don't call shit.

[2much_knowledge]

LeBron gets mauled every drive to the basket. Refs don't call shit.

Cool and all but this thread ain't about lebron.

[Axe]

a big deal was jordan and his bulls making the league institute flagrant fouls. which made the "jordan rules" obsolete. chicago would still win championships but the flagrant/technical stuff aided them along the way.
Lol i pointed this out in older threads earlier

[mehyaM24]

Lol i pointed this out in older threads earlier

its common knowledge by now. but ya its what made the jordan rules actually a big deal

detroit was effectively neutered.

[Axe]

its common knowledge by now. but ya its what made the jordan rules actually a big deal

detroit was effectively neutered.
That's why it's hard to think they'd win some rings in the 80s unless they had more help.

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/DfCTn6KG/Physical-Era-LBJ-Era.png

LeBron Rules are worse

[Ainosterhaspie]

a big deal was jordan and his bulls making the league institute flagrant fouls. which made the "jordan rules" obsolete. chicago would still win championships but the flagrant/technical stuff aided them along the way.
There was a lot more to Jordan rules than foul him hard or get physical with him. It was more about sending double teams at him on the perimeter and more in the paint, than the physical side, and you can be physical and work to wear a guy down without resorting to flagrant fouls.

[2much_knowledge]

There was a lot more to Jordan rules than foul him hard or get physical with him. It was more about sending double teams at him on the perimeter and more in the paint, than the physical side, and you can be physical and work to wear a guy down without resorting to flagrant fouls.

Yup. They were doing the hard fouling wayyyyy before.
Isiah and Joe spent hours on the phone trying to figure it out.

[3ball]

It's about the double-teaming

Not everyone commanded double-teams and the Jordan Rules were schemes to double-team Jordan literally every time he touched the ball

For example, Jordan was doubled on 13 straight possessions to close Game 6 of the 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark of the 4th quarter - see last 9 minutes here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BuG19_1yrrQ&t=01h21m12s), or simply watch gifs of every double-team here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88)

No one in history was double-teamed with that frequency - not even 2000 Shaq... Only the Jordan Rules created that level of double-teaming

[Shooter]

It's about the double-teaming

Not everyone commanded double-teams and the Jordan Rules were schemes to double-team Jordan literally every time he touched the ball

For example, Jordan was doubled on 13 straight possessions to close Game 6 of the 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark of the 4th quarter - see last 9 minutes here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BuG19_1yrrQ&t=01h21m12s), or simply watch gifs of every double-team here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88)

No one in history was double-teamed with that frequency - not even 2000 Shaq... Only the Jordan Rules created that level of double-teaming

Double team was illegal until 2003 when MJ quit. Stop it.

[3ball]

Double team was illegal until 2003 when MJ quit. Stop it.


Wow that's a dumb thing to say - among the dumbest posts ever on this site

Double-teaming has always been legal

I just posted all the double-teams in gifs

[Bronbron23]

Double team was illegal until 2003 when MJ quit. Stop it.

Can always tell the ones who just look at stats and articles and don't watch. Mj faced double teams all the time.

Funny thing is bron probably faces the least double teams out of any atg scorer. Defenses don't fear his scoring capabilities like they did mj or kobe.

[Shooter]

Wow that's a dumb thing to say - among the dumbest posts ever on this site

Double-teaming has always been legal

I just posted all the double-teams in gifs

Not on the weakside noobie, no help defense. You were forced to leave your man and send a hard double.

"There was no digging down, no helping off non-shooters to pre-rotate to stop the bigger scoring threat. It was double-team or nothing."

[Shooter]

Can always tell the ones who just look at stats and articles and don't watch. Mj faced double teams all the time.

Funny thing is bron probably faces the least double teams out of any atg scorer. Defenses don't fear his scoring capabilities like they did mj or kobe.

If you can PASS it's harder to double team someone. If you CANT pass (MJ) then what's the penalty for double teaming him? Nothing.

[3ball]

Not on the weakside noobie, no help defense. You were forced to leave your man and send a hard double.

"There was no digging down, no helping off non-shooters to pre-rotate to stop the bigger scoring threat. It was double-team or nothing."


There was no one on the weakside in previous eras because there was no corner shooter - no weakside spacing - all 10 players were in the paint or on the strong side.. no one spaced the floor on the weakside

Furthermore, man-to-man defense allows shading and playing halfway, although the lack of spacing had everyone standing next to each other anyway

[mehyaM24]

There was a lot more to Jordan rules than foul him hard or get physical with him. It was more about sending double teams at him on the perimeter and more in the paint, than the physical side, and you can be physical and work to wear a guy down without resorting to flagrant fouls.

sure, but double-teams and "physicality" were staples back then. jordan got double and triple teamed all the time. during a regular-season game back in 87, mj dropped 50 and half of the time indiana threw doubles at him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE

what made "jordan rules" unique was the fervor in detroit's fouling. layups weren't matched with a common hack. they were met with cheap, hard fouls that made players think twice before waltzing into the lane. an intimidation tactic basically. detroit got away with murder up until 91, when jordan had them reprimanded. or penalized with techs.

[Ainosterhaspie]

sure, but double-teams and "physicality" were staples back then. jordan got double and triple teamed all the time. during a regular-season game back in 87, mj dropped 50 and half of the time indiana threw doubles at him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ9dBEcI_hE

what made "jordan rules" unique was the fervor in detroit's fouling. layups weren't matched with a common hack. they were met with cheap, hard fouls that made players think twice before waltzing into the lane. an intimidation tactic basically. detroit got away with murder up until 91, when jordan had them reprimanded. or penalized with techs.
My response to the bolded is so what. This wasn't unique to Jordan. Ask Wilt, Shaq and LeBron. They all had to deal with dudes hammering on them. What you are describing is standard game planning against dominant players. It extends beyond basketball too. If you're facing a finesse/skill player and you can't match them there, you make the game dirty and physical. For some reason MJ gets a catchy phrase to describe basic defensive tactics employed against him.

[3ball]

My response to the bonded is so what. This wasn't unique to Jordan. Ask Wilt, Shaq and LeBron. Theyball had to deal with dudes hammering on them. What you are describing is standard game planning against dominant players. It extends beyond basketball too. If you're facing a finesse/skill player and you can't match them there, you make the game dirty and physical. For some reason MJ gets a catchy phrase to describe basic defensive tactics employed against him.


No one tries to hurt Lebron when he enters the lane

Otoh, the Bad Boys say all the time that the intent was to injure

[mehyaM24]

My response to the bonded is so what. This wasn't unique to Jordan. Ask Wilt, Shaq and LeBron. Theyball had to deal with dudes hammering on them. What you are describing is standard game planning against dominant players. It extends beyond basketball too. If you're facing a finesse/skill player and you can't match them there, you make the game dirty and physical. For some reason MJ gets a catchy phrase to describe basic defensive tactics employed against him.

you're missing the point. again, jordan was doubled all the time. that isn't what made the "jordan rules" relevant.

hard fouls that are now TECHNICAL FOULS is what made it a big deal. for that reason, lebron shouldn't even be listed here. like.. what? :oldlol:


No one tries to hurt Lebron when he enters the lane

Otoh, the Bad Boys say all the time that the intent was to injure

i don't often agree with this guy, but ya, bingo.

[Ainosterhaspie]

No one tries to hurt Lebron when he enters the lane

Otoh, the Bad Boys say all the time that the intent was to injure
Go watch the McRoberts forearm to LeBron's throat and try again.

[3ball]

Go watch the McRoberts forearm to LeBron's throat and try again.


That's an exception, and exceptions prove the rule

Jordan got the McRoberts treatment as a STANDARD

[tpols]

The Spurs never doubled LeBron lmao. They sagged off him with single coverage.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That's an exception, and exceptions prove the rule

Jordan got the McRoberts treatment as a STANDARD

No he didn't. That's hazy memory narrative bullshit. People pull up four nasty fouls from a five year span, run it on loop and act like that's standard fare. If you actually bother to watch a game, they're just playing basketball. Nothing about it stands out as notably different from what the guys I mentioned faced. Watching full games gives a completely different impression than super cuts of cherry picked moments.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The Spurs never doubled LeBron lmao. They sagged off him with single coverage.

Who said they did?

[3ball]

No he didn't. That's hazy memory narrative bullshit. People pull up four nasty fouls from a five year span, run it on loop and act like that's standard fare. If you actually bother to watch a game, they're just playing basketball. Nothing about it stands out as notably different from what the guys I mentioned faced. Watching full games gives a completely different impression than super cuts of cherry picked moments.


Nope - the Pistons say they tried to hurt MJ every time he drove

John Salley or Rodman make a motion with their elbow where they smack their elbow into their hand to show what they did to Jordan as a standard

[Ainosterhaspie]

Nope - the Pistons say they tried to hurt MJ every time he drove

John Salley or Rodman make a motion with their elbow where they smack their elbow into their hand to show what they did to Jordan as a standard

I don't give a f*** what they said. I've watched the games and not just back in 88, 89. We have tape. You can literally check out what actully happened instead of relying on people's accounts of it or memory fogged by the passage of 30 years, and the fact is the level of physicality in the narrative doesn't match the tapes.

I mean you can see big bad scary Laimbeer ducking out of the way of Jordan drives, because as it turns out fouls existed then too and it was important to stay in the game.

[Shooter]

The Spurs never doubled LeBron lmao. They sagged off him with single coverage.

The power or passing....


MJ can't pass so..

[Shooter]

No one tries to hurt Lebron when he enters the lane

Otoh, the Bad Boys say all the time that the intent was to injure

https://i.postimg.cc/DfCTn6KG/Physical-Era-LBJ-Era.png

[SATAN]

It's a shame that Bill Laimbeer didn't break MJ's spine tbh

[8Ball]

https://i.postimg.cc/DfCTn6KG/Physical-Era-LBJ-Era.png

LeBron Rules are worse

I laugh at "Jordan rules".

The concept of "Jordan Rules" is all marketing. Players like LeBron and Shaq get hit way worst.

https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2016%2F0518%2Fr84371_1296x729_16% 2D9.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi74P6cCEAEprPZ.jpg

https://www.si.com/.image/c_fit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw _620/MTY4MTg5NTI1MzI3NTU0NDYx/lebron-james-28jpg.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QrdzFDGFag0/maxresdefault.jpg

[Bronbron23]

If you can PASS it's harder to double team someone. If you CANT pass (MJ) then what's the penalty for double teaming him? Nothing.

Again makes me wonder if you watch games with statements like this. Mj only has 2 assists less a game even though he played shooting gaurd and bron basically plays point. In the post season bron gets barely over one full assist a game. Mj was clearly a good passer. Like bron mj could pass out the double team. The difference between the is mj can pass put or just beat the double team himself.

[SATAN]

He was a ball hog

[8Ball]

Again makes me wonder if you watch games with statements like this. Mj only has 2 assists less a game even though he played shooting gaurd and bron basically plays point. In the post season bron gets barely over one full assist a game. Mj was clearly a good passer. Like bron mj could pass out the double team. The difference between the is mj can pass put or just beat the double team himself.

No.

Assists / game don't tell the story on passing ability.

Larry Bird and Manu are excellent passers and have a higher ability than Jordan to make difficult passes. Larry Bird equaling Jordan in APG doesn't mean Jordan = Larry Bird in passing.

Kyrie = Larry Bird in APG, are you saying Kyrie and Larry Bird are as good ball distributors? Kyrie averages 1.2 assist less per game than LeBron, is Kyrie a LeBron level passer? Hell no. Not one of Kyrie's teammates would ever admit to that.

LeBron and Jordan are not on the same skill level as passers. Not even close. There is not 1 coach in the NBA that will look at passing footage of LeBron and Jordan and say they are equal.

[tpols]

I don't give a f*** what they said. I've watched the games and not just back in 88, 89. We have tape. You can literally check out what actully happened instead of relying on people's accounts of it or memory fogged by the passage of 30 years, and the fact is the level of physicality in the narrative doesn't match the tapes.

I mean you can see big bad scary Laimbeer ducking out of the way of Jordan drives, because as it turns out fouls existed then too and it was important to stay in the game.

Its been made pretty clear Lambier played to hurt people. Larry Bird still hates him to this day because of it and that's saying something. They could detail the nuances of how Bill played much better than you and your YouTube videos.

[Ainosterhaspie]

I laugh at "Jordan rules".

The concept of "Jordan Rules" is all marketing. Players like LeBron and Shaq get hit way worst.

https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2016%2F0518%2Fr84371_1296x729_16% 2D9.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi74P6cCEAEprPZ.jpg

https://www.si.com/.image/c_fit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw _620/MTY4MTg5NTI1MzI3NTU0NDYx/lebron-james-28jpg.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QrdzFDGFag0/maxresdefault.jpg

You got a good point here, but isn't just LeBron. Defenders gave Wilt and Shaq the business too. I'm sure I'm forgetting many other players who faced the same. The idea that Jordan was unique here is just goofy.

[BigShotBob]

If you don't think the Jordan Rules were a big deal then you need to rewatch the games. Plain and simple. I was rooting for Detroit against MJ and they did all they could to neuter him.

It wasn't the foul that mattered. It was the shots after the initial foul. If Laimbeer tagged you Rodman would get off an extra shove/push while you fell and the refs would do nothing about it. Just a common foul. Jordan got special attention in that regard because he played with rookies and cokeheads.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Its been made pretty clear Lambier played to hurt people. Larry Bird still hates him to this day because of it and that's saying something. They could detail the nuances of how Bill played much better than you and your YouTube videos.
Yeah and there's a dude out there telling people the 6" fish he caught was 2 feet long, another talking about walking uphill both ways in the snow and you telling people you're packing more than 3". People make stuff up and stretch the truth.

And I'm not saying there weren't dirty players then, but the degree is massively overstated and you have plenty of that stuff now, but people just ignore it. Artest elbow on Harden, Bynum clothesline Barnes, Pachulia on Leonard, Dellavadova rolling up Korver's ankle, McRoberts forearm to LeBron's throat, Olynic ripping Love's shoulder out of socket. That's all off the top of my head. Dirty play exists in every era. Jordan isn't unique there.

[tpols]

No.

Assists / game don't tell the story on passing ability.

Larry Bird and Manu are excellent passers and have a higher ability than Jordan to make difficult passes. Larry Bird equaling Jordan in APG doesn't mean Jordan = Larry Bird in passing.

Kyrie = Larry Bird in APG, are you saying Kyrie and Larry Bird are as good ball distributors? Kyrie averages 1.2 assist less per game than LeBron, is Kyrie a LeBron level passer? Hell no. Not one of Kyrie's teammates would ever admit to that.

LeBron and Jordan are not on the same skill level as passers. Not even close. There is not 1 coach in the NBA that will look at passing footage of LeBron and Jordan and say they are equal.

You have absolutely no idea what youre talking about. MJ was a fantastic passer, and his teams had better offenses and team assists as a result of his play. Monopolizing the ball doesnt make somebody a great passer. LeBron playing like John wall or Russell Westbrook doesn't make him a great passer. Magic and LeBron both played point and Magic dimes 50+% more. If you're going to monopolize you better be diming like Magic a guy who has multiple 15+ assist per game playoff runs leading to titles.

[mehyaM24]

they employed fouls that are now flagrant (2 shots and the ball). the fact lebron is being mentioned here is revisionism, and i'm a fan of his.

the "jordan rules" were in fact a big deal. once again, for the last ****ing time, the rules are why jordan whined to the league in 91. and subsequently got them removed.

[tpols]

Yeah and there's a dude out there telling people the 6" fish he caught was 2 feet long, another talking about walking uphill both ways in the snow and you telling people you're packing more than 3". People make stuff up and stretch the truth.

And I'm not saying there weren't dirty players then, but the degree is massively overstated and you have plenty of that stuff now, but people just ignore it. Artest elbow on Harden, Bynum clothesline Barnes, Pachulia on Leonard, Dellavadova rolling up Korver's ankle, McRoberts forearm to LeBron's throat, Olynic ripping Love's shoulder out of socket. That's all off the top of my head. Dirty play exists in every era. Jordan isn't unique there.

There's no truth being stretched dude. If Larry Bird says you were playing to hurt people and holds a life long grudge over it that's what it is.

[8Ball]

You have absolutely no idea what youre talking about. MJ was a fantastic passer, and his teams had better offenses and team assists as a result of his play. Monopolizing the ball doesnt make somebody a great passer. LeBron playing like John wall or Russell Westbrook doesn't make him a great passer. Magic and LeBron both played point and Magic dimes 50+% more. If you're going to monopolize you better be diming like Magic a guy who has multiple 15+ assist per game playoff runs leading to titles.

Kyrie Irving averages same APG as Jordan.

They are equal in passing? Yes / No.

[SATAN]

Michael Jordan cried and begged David Stern to change the rules for him.

Absolutely pathetic.

[hateraid]

Its been made pretty clear Lambier played to hurt people. Larry Bird still hates him to this day because of it and that's saying something. They could detail the nuances of how Bill played much better than you and your YouTube videos.

Laimbeer played to hurt everyone. He was dirty. He was worse with Barkley. It wasn't exclusive to Jordan

[BigShotBob]

Laimbeer played to hurt everyone. He was dirty. He was worse with Barkley. It wasn't exclusive to Jordan

Larry Bird wasn't doubled for quarters at a time. That's why there weren't any "Bird" rules. There weren't any "Barkley" rules. There weren't any "Magic" rules, etc. It was only Jordan. And that's because the concept was more than just playing physical.

It's obvious none of you have watched the games.

Should honestly get this thread closed. Very embarrassing takes by people who don't have a clue with what they're talking about.

[hateraid]

I am well aquainted with that era and all I can say is it was something NBA dished out to make the series memorable. Detroit played physical defense. Period. They did it to Barkley. But because the narrative was easier to sell when trying to grow the league past Magic vs Bird. Fans eat it up. But check what the Pistons did to Bird and Barkley. They were cheap shot artists. That's why the Sixers picked up Mahorn

[hateraid]

Larry Bird wasn't doubled for quarters at a time. That's why there weren't any "Bird" rules. There weren't any "Barkley" rules. There weren't any "Magic" rules, etc. It was only Jordan. And that's because the concept was more than just playing physical.

It's obvious none of you have watched the games.

Should honestly get this thread closed. Very embarrassing takes by people who don't have a clue with what they're talking about.

Barkley was doubled ALL the time, not just in the post but when rebounding. And Laimbeer would throw cheap jabs at Barkley when he'd go up.
But yeah, let's just make it exclusive to Jordan

[BigShotBob]

I am well aquainted with that era and all I can say is it was something NBA dished out to make the series memorable. Detroit played physical defense. Period. They did it to Barkley. But because the narrative was easier to sell when trying to grow the league past Magic vs Bird. Fans eat it up. But check what the Pistons did to Bird and Barkley. They were cheap shot artists. That's why the Sixers picked up Mahorn

Again, the Jordan Rules were more than physical defense. It was a scheme that included making him go left, funneling him to help/enforcers, cutting off passing lanes so he can't jump pass once he's caught in the air, etc. Dumars and Zeke had conversations on the phone about Jordan. Not Barkley, not Magic, and not Bird. Only Jordan.

I don't know what's so hard to admit that Jordan had it a lot tougher than them. I've watched the games. I rooted for the Pistons. They played him differently than anyone else. And it worked.

Now if Jordan had Kareem or Worthy or Kevin McHale then maybe it wouldn't have been as effective. But that's speculation and a whole different story.

[Mauzah]

You guys are pathetic.

The Pistons openly admit to trying to injure Jordan, the Bulls complain to the league office which they should of because they were ****ing correct.

Meanwhile Lebron accidentally rolls an ankle on another players foot you guys are crying on here with multiple threads that there was intent to injure.

Is this place seriously filled with 10 year olds or are you all really that stupid?

[Ainosterhaspie]

I am well aquainted with that era and all I can say is it was something NBA dished out to make the series memorable. Detroit played physical defense. Period. They did it to Barkley. But because the narrative was easier to sell when trying to grow the league past Magic vs Bird. Fans eat it up. But check what the Pistons did to Bird and Barkley. They were cheap shot artists. That's why the Sixers picked up Mahorn
Exactly. Slap a marketing label on standard stuff and act like Jordan is unique in facing a game plan centered on the best player.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Again, the Jordan Rules were more than physical defense. It was a scheme that included making him go left, funneling him to help/enforcers, cutting off passing lanes so he can't jump pass once he's caught in the air, etc. Dumars and Zeke had conversations on the phone about Jordan. Not Barkley, not Magic, and not Bird. Only Jordan.

I don't know what's so hard to admit that Jordan had it a lot tougher than them. I've watched the games. I rooted for the Pistons. They played him differently than anyone else. And it worked.

Now if Jordan had Kareem or Worthy or Kevin McHale then maybe it wouldn't have been as effective. But that's speculation and a whole different story.

What. Teams employ different tactics against different players and teams? What wizardry is this? I thought they just use the same plan all year regardless of opponent or circumstance.

[Ainosterhaspie]

You guys are pathetic.

The Pistons openly admit to trying to injure Jordan, the Bulls complain to the league office which they should of because they were ****ing correct.

Meanwhile Lebron accidentally rolls an ankle on another players foot you guys are crying on here with multiple threads that there was intent to injure.

Is this place seriously filled with 10 year olds or are you all really that stupid?

Nobody has said anything about LeBron rolling an ankle on someone else's foot. You're making crap up.

[BigShotBob]

What. Teams employ different tactics against different players and teams? What wizardry is this? I thought they just use the same plan all year regardless of opponent or circumstance.

Except the tactics they employed on Jordan were far worse. You'd know if you actually watched the games.

[Mauzah]

Nobody has said anything about LeBron rolling an ankle on someone else's foot. You're making crap up.

There were plenty of threads when it happened. Uninformed and incorrect as usual.

Carry on...

[Ainosterhaspie]

Except the tactics they employed on Jordan were far worse. You'd know if you actually watched the games.
I have, that's why the narrative falls flat for me. Maybe there's a specific game I need to find, but I've watched several of the 88-90 playoff games with Pistons and Bulls and every time come away with the impression that the narrative is wildly overblown. I'm looking specifically to see the brutal physicality and it isn't there.

Then there's the game planning side to the Jordan rules. So what? That's what every team tries to do when facing a star. Find a way to neutralize him. A whole mythology has developed around teams doing what teams do against stars.

Teams opened roster spots to bring on useless stiffs for no purpose other than to foul Shaq a bunch of times, but Jordan is somehow a unique case.

[hateraid]

Except the tactics they employed on Jordan were far worse. You'd know if you actually watched the games.

No worse than what they did you Barkley. Different tactic same idea. Or did you watch advert Sixer game in the early 90's? Because I did.

[Shooter]

Nobody has said anything about LeBron rolling an ankle on someone else's foot. You're making crap up.

+1

[mehyaM24]

ainosterhaspie - i've disagreed with just about everything you have wrote. but the more posts i'm reading here, i may understand where you're coming from. so from what i gather its not that you don't think the rules weren't real. its that detroit employed the same tactics on EVERY threat - going as far as attempting to injure them - which is documented, but not something i condone.

if that's all you are saying, fair enough.

but putting lebron in that group is where we get disconnected. ya lebron has been the recipient of hard fouls, but he never saw a team who'd flatout try to injure him. consistently. before 91 those "flagrant" fouls were common too. so its apples and oranges.

[Ainosterhaspie]

ainosterhaspie - i've disagreed with just about everything you have wrote. but the more posts i'm reading here, i may understand where you're coming from. so from what i gather its not that you don't think the rules weren't real. its that detroit employed the same tactics on EVERY threat - going as far as attempting to injure them - which is documented, but not something i condone.

if that's all you are saying, fair enough.

but putting lebron in that group is where we get disconnected. ya lebron has been the recipient of hard fouls, but he never saw a team who'd flatout try to injure him. consistently. before 91 those "flagrant" fouls were common too. so its apples and oranges.
Sorry if I didn't make my point in a clear manner. The Pistons did game plan specifically for Jordan, and were a dirty team and Jordan had to deal with both. I just don't think either is particularly unique to him, and the whole Jordan rules mythos makes it appear it was.

I pointed out other greats like Wilt, Shaq and LeBron facing physicality and game planning on shutting them down to show this has being going on for decades in the league. No one ever coined the Wilt Rules phrase to talk about the Celtics putting a guy in front of him and behind him to prevent him from even getting the ball, or people clobbered him nightly while the refs ignored it because he was too physically dominant.

Every star has unique sets of talents, so the game plan for one won't be the same as for others, but it isn't about the specific game plan, it's about the broader concept that teams are going to come up with a plan to try to disrupt the star's impact on the series.

In my mind the Jordan rules was a marketing gimmick. The phrase, not the fact that the Pistons employed an effective strategy against him. The Pistons were the heel and Jordan the hero, and those dastardly Jordan rules stood in his way. Then you watch the games and it's largely standard basketball being played though with a clear effort by Detroit to make sure he's always got multiple bodies in his way.

[BigShotBob]

I have, that's why the narrative falls flat for me. Maybe there's a specific game I need to find, but I've watched several of the 88-90 playoff games with Pistons and Bulls and every time come away with the impression that the narrative is wildly overblown. I'm looking specifically to see the brutal physicality and it isn't there.

Then there's the game planning side to the Jordan rules. So what? That's what every team tries to do when facing a star. Find a way to neutralize him. A whole mythology has developed around teams doing what teams do against stars.

Teams opened roster spots to bring on useless stiffs for no purpose other than to foul Shaq a bunch of times, but Jordan is somehow a unique case.

Anyone that says "that's what every team tries to do" literally has no idea on what they speak on. Everybody didn't try to funnel and smother other players. Everybody didn't have Isiah and Dumars on the phone thinking of ways to stop Jordan. Everybody didn't have Chuck Daley screaming to put MJ on the ground every time he took off. It's just not true.

Shaq being sent to the foul line because he can't shoot free throws is not even close to what the Pistons did to MJ and that's an asinine take.

Plus he's 7'2 300lbs. Don't be absurd comparing him being fouled to Jordan at his lightest from 88-90 weighing about 110lbs less getting knocked around like a ragdoll.


No worse than what they did you Barkley. Different tactic same idea. Or did you watch advert Sixer game in the early 90's? Because I did.

Barkley didn't get what MJ got. Again, show me where the Barkley rules are. The Jordan rules was an entire defensive strategy, not just physical play. And the sad part was that it still didn't work all of the time.

[Axe]

Barkley didn't get what MJ got. Again, show me where the Barkley rules are. The Jordan rules was an entire defensive strategy, not just physical play. And the sad part was that it still didn't work all of the time.
Well, obviously it didn't work anymore after the 89-90 season due to rule changes.

[sdot_thadon]

Barkley didn't get what MJ got. Again, show me where the Barkley rules are. The Jordan rules was an entire defensive strategy, not just physical play. And the sad part was that it still didn't work all of the time.
Because Barkley was a guy who already lived in the paint and you were probably going to have to fight if you played him that way. Mj was a paintbrush to Barkley's jackhammer.

There was a strategic side to the Jordan rules based around what to do depending on what part of the floor he was on. And maybe Op is right, other stars have been gameplanned for as well, especially a guy like Lebron with the box and 1 coverages and other zone man hybrids teams have used over the years. Mj also isn't the only guy teams decided to rough up. We've seen it with Lebron as well and maybe most notably guys like Dirk, or Pau, even Kd. Get in their jersey and make them uncomfortable. Classic basketball.

[BigShotBob]

Because Barkley was a guy who already lived in the paint and you were probably going to have to fight if you played him that way. Mj was a paintbrush to Barkley's jackhammer.

There was a strategic side to the Jordan rules based around what to do depending on what part of the floor he was on. And maybe Op is right, other stars have been gameplanned for as well, especially a guy like Lebron with the box and 1 coverages and other zone man hybrids teams have used over the years. Mj also isn't the only guy teams decided to rough up. We've seen it with Lebron as well and maybe most notably guys like Dirk, or Pau, even Kd. Get in their jersey and make them uncomfortable. Classic basketball.

Comparing a "game plan" with the Jordan Rules is an asinine take. A game plan is loose and flexible. The Jordan Rules were requirements. As in you have to send him left, you have to hit him again after the initial foul, you have to hard double for an entire 4th quarter, you have to trap him, you have to cut off all of his passing lanes, etc etc. Barkley didn't go through it to that degree because he never averaged 35 points against the Pistons for his career against them. Again, that was MJ's average.

No one past 2002 has seen a real zone because of defensive 3 seconds. Box and one is nothing. All any star needs is a screen to beat it and they can read and react. Hardly anything close to hard doubles and traps. I can't remember the last time any of the players you've mentioned were hard doubled nearly as much as MJ was especially against the Pistons.

[dankok8]

Reality Check #1: The NBA was more physical the more you go into the past. Jordan faced some brutal defenses. Guys like Kareem and Wilt faced even worse. For example until Kermit Washington almost killed Rudy T in 1978, players weren't even punished for straight up hitting someone with a closed fist to the head. In the 80's and 90's that level of physical abuse was already gone but like someone said Jordan would get hit excessively hard on drives and it's not even that they were hard hits. They weren't basketball plays. And they would be additional contact after the whistle. In today's game most of those plays would be flagrant 2's because they just weren't basketball plays.

Reality Check #2: Jordan was the subject of so much defensive attention because he was insanely aggressive. Like he would rarely ever hesitate to try and score 50 points.. Jordan kept coming and coming and coming. It takes a certain kind of determination and MJ was the most aggressive player I've ever watched. As such it was always in the defense's best interest to stop him from scoring because that's what he was always looking to do. With a player like Magic or Lebron, much of the time they didn't face the same kind of physicality and attention because those guys never consistently tried to explode for huge scoring nights. Not that it makes them worse than Jordan but they weren't individually as big threats on offense as Jordan was. Jordan's style lent itself to that kind of defensive tactic.

[Indian guy]

The big myth about The Jordan Rules is the whole MJ-was-knocked-on-his-ass-if-he-even-looked-at-the-rim spiel. You hear it all the time; how their game plan was to physically punish him. Except you will struggle to find even a single hard foul or cheap shot on MJ from 88-91 (the years they met in the playoffs). And if you do, it was deemed a flagrant foul then too. Detroit was a physical team, but their physicality on MJ is a lot of embellishment to mythicize MJ/Bulls' struggles against them and how they eventually overcame it.

You know what is reality? Detroit simply threw a shit load of defenders at MJ. That's what the Jordan Rules were - great individual defense (Dumars) backed up by a lot of double and triple teaming. They did it more so than any other team in the league in MJ's career. Especially in '88 and '89 when Bulls were mostly a 1-man offense. You rarely, if ever, saw a perimeter player doubled so much. But Detroit did it. And that's what made them unique.

[Micku]

The big myth about The Jordan Rules is the whole MJ-was-knocked-on-his-ass-if-he-even-looked-at-the-rim spiel. You hear it all the time; how their game plan was to physically punish him. Except you will struggle to find even a single hard foul or cheap shot on MJ from 88-91 (the years they met in the playoffs). And if you do, it was deemed a flagrant foul then too. Detroit was a physical team, but their physicality on MJ is a lot of embellishment to mythicize MJ/Bulls' struggles against them and how they eventually overcame it.

You know what is reality? Detroit simply threw a shit load of defenders at MJ. That's what the Jordan Rules were - great individual defense (Dumars) backed up by a lot of double and triple teaming. They did it more so than any other team in the league in MJ's career. Especially in '88 and '89 when Bulls were mostly a 1-man offense. You rarely, if ever, saw a perimeter player doubled so much. But Detroit did it. And that's what made them unique.

They were allowed to be more physical back then. Like the Kevin Mchale clothesline on Kurt Rambis? Common foul. Robert Parish knocking Bill Laimbeer to the ground? He was able to stay in the game. I think Rodman got MJ or some bulls player in a take down with their arms around neck. Nowadays you would probably get suspended. Back then, if the players had enough of your crap, they would fight, you would kick out the game and then play again the next day or something.

The Pistons just did more cheap shots too that weren't b-ball plays. Especially fouling after the play and the more subtle tricks. But that was more Bill Laimbeer. And the techs now weren't really the same back then. They were still called, but they could grab you around the neck area and take you down and it's like, "It's just part of the game." Although it depends on the refs and the intensity. But mostly it just leads to fights instead of getting you thrown out the game.

You right about the defensive attention MJ got. They dared anybody else to beat them except for MJ. 88 and 89 was pretty crazy at how much defensive attention they put on MJ. He was being double or triple team every team whenever he had the ball in half court it seems. Whenever he would drive, due to the lack of spacing in the era, they were able clog up the paint or do a double to make sure he doesn't get the ball in the post if he tried, but teams did that in general back then. They mostly tried to get him to go left. Throw different bodies at him. So, he'll always have resistance no matter what. It helped they had good defenders like Joe Dumars and Rodman, and also big men to protect the paint. If he's at the right wing, they did a soft double. Top, they instantly double. They played him physical no matter what, but if he beat you, then they would foul'em. The Jordan Rules was more than just knock him on his butt.

They couldn't do that against the Celts or Lakers because they were more talented. They had different strategies for them. And it's not to say they were the first team to play dirty or even double or triple team sole star driven team. The celts of the 80s did that plenty of teams. They played a bit dirty and physical against the Lakers. They put a lot of doubles against MJ when he went off in 86. But the Pistons guarded MJ better than any team back then. But they also were the dirtiest too.

But I disagree with the thread. The Jordan Rules was a big deal. But not necessary cuz the way they played Jordan, cuz that was just good defense, but not the cheap shots. It just what they sparked. Not only were flagrant fouls were more pronounced, but this also parked how the Knicks and other physical teams that would play against a team that relies on a proflic scorer and nobody else on the team that could score. But the way the Pistons played, many teams and players did not like it. They didn't complain that about other physical teams as much either, except for them. They did not mind the physicality, as they all played physical and knew that it was part of the game sometimes. But they did extra and sneaky stuff.

[light]

It's about the double-teaming

Not everyone commanded double-teams and the Jordan Rules were schemes to double-team Jordan literally every time he touched the ball

For example, Jordan was doubled on 13 straight possessions to close Game 6 of the 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark of the 4th quarter - see last 9 minutes here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BuG19_1yrrQ&t=01h21m12s), or simply watch gifs of every double-team here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88)

No one in history was double-teamed with that frequency - not even 2000 Shaq... Only the Jordan Rules created that level of double-teaming

lol.

Awww, baby Jordan couldn't handle a widdle double team.

You could beat Jordan by sending guys at him because he didn't know how to make defenses pay for it.

Jordan was, at that point, a low IQ basketball idiot - or as Bill Cartwright said at the time, "He's the greatest athlete I've ever seen, he's just not a basketball player."

Double teaming LeBron James is a recipe for disaster - he will make you pay - that's why teams are afraid to do it.

LeBron knew how to beat double teams when he was 12. Jordan still had no clue when he was 26.

[Hey Yo]

Michael Jordan cried and begged David Stern to change the rules for him.

Absolutely pathetic.
MJ

''We may have complained about it and told the teacher, or whatever, but we never tried to hurt them"