Why do proponents of this era use 90's expansion against mj?

[Bronbron23]

The expansion of the 90's has just as much of an effect on the game now as it did then. Nobody gave up any relevant pieces at the time and the top draft pics go to the worst teams anyway just like they do now.

I get that more teams mean the talent is spread around more making the league as a whole more "watered-down" but hows that any different then what's going on now? There's more teams now than ever.

Proponents of the 80's and before may have an argument but anyone else using it dosn't know what they're talking about.

[3ball]

The 80's were a top-heavy league with a couple super-teams at the top, until expansion spread the talent around evenly..

Post-expansion, you didn't need to be 1 of the 2 super-teams to make the Finals - less stars were required to be Finals-caliber, so there were many more Finals-caliber teams.. Obviously, it's harder to be 1 of many Finals-caliber teams, than 1 of 2 super-teams with a free pass to the Finals like the 80's or 2010's

[Ainosterhaspie]

80s had at least two superteams more quality depth teams. Then 90s and expansion hit and stars and depth had to get spread around more teams. Only Jordan's Bulls had quality at the top and strong depth. No other team approached superteam status. By 00 the Spurs and Lakers were gathering ample elite talents on the roster to shift back toward superteams.

Maybe expansion just as top heavy roster depth thinned out was a coincidence, but it seems they could be connected. Jordan had massive influence on US and worldwide interest in the game helping boost the available talent pool in the 2000s which countered expansion to some extent. That and the shift to free agency led to more top end talent being collected on the same team compared to the 90s.

[3ball]

80s had at least two superteams more quality depth teams. Then 90s and expansion hit and stars and depth had to get spread around more teams. Only Jordan's Bulls had quality at the top and strong depth. No other team approached superteam status. By 00 the Spurs and Lakers were gathering ample elite talents on the roster to shift back toward superteams.

Maybe expansion just as top heavy roster depth thinned out was a coincidence, but it seems they could be connected. Jordan had massive influence on US and worldwide interest in the game helping boost the available talent pool in the 2000s which countered expansion to some extent. That and the shift to free agency led to more top end talent being collected on the same team compared to the 90s.


it's harder to be 1 of many Finals-caliber teams where the talent is evenly-spread (parity 90's), than 1 of 2 super-teams with a free pass to the Finals like the 80's or 2010's

[Johnny32]

lol so simple. expansion diluted an already weak non intentional for the most part talent pool. there's probably 250 players from the 90s that wouldn't even make a roster in today's highly skilled global nba. there's a reason they try to mask the horrific offenses of the 90s and call it good defense. majority of teams had 1/2 dinosaur stiffs at either the 4/5 who would struggle to dribble without looking down at the ball.

[97 bulls]

The 80's were a top-heavy league with a couple super-teams at the top, until expansion spread the talent around evenly..

Post-expansion, you didn't need to be 1 of the 2 super-teams to make the Finals - less stars were required to be Finals-caliber, so there were many more Finals-caliber teams.. Obviously, it's harder to be 1 of many Finals-caliber teams, than 1 of 2 super-teams with a free pass to the Finals like the 80's or 2010's

Then why didnt the Pistons or the Showtime Lakers get to 70 wins? Or even close?

[Bronbron23]

lol so simple. expansion diluted an already weak non intentional for the most part talent pool. there's probably 250 players from the 90s that wouldn't even make a roster in today's highly skilled global nba. there's a reason they try to mask the horrific offenses of the 90s and call it good defense. majority of teams had 1/2 dinosaur stiffs at either the 4/5 who would struggle to dribble without looking down at the ball.

Dude the 5 position is the weakest it's ever been. Do you even watch games?

[3ball]

Then why didnt the Pistons or the Showtime Lakers get to 70 wins? Or even close?


70 wins isn't realistic in any scenario and are complete outliers

65+ wins = dominance and the super-teams of the 80's did that in spades

Btw, the league was smaller back then, so teams played each other many times and knew each other much better

Also, it's no surprise the 70 win teams didn't occur until players had charter jets and were rested enough to stay at a high level all year

[Johnny32]

from 1988-1995 the nba added 6 expansion teams. from 96-present they've added one. imagine desperately trying to compare these situations.

[3ball]

from 1988-1995 the nba added 6 expansion teams. from 96-present they've added one. imagine desperately trying to compare these situations.


Expansion spreads the talent around more evenly, so the requirements to be a good team is less, thus allowing more good teams

Evenly-spread talent (parity) is the optimal competitive environment

[FKAri]

Dude the 5 position is the weakest it's ever been. Do you even watch games?

The position itself is weaker than before not necessarily the players.

[Johnny32]

Expansion spreads the talent around more evenly, so the requirements to be a good team is less, thus allowing more good teams

Evenly-spread talent (parity) is the optimal competitive environment

and yet jordan still needed an all nba/all defensive teammate to get the job done. and that job becomes much easier when you're facing the johnny newman led teams of the world on a semi-nightly basis.

[3ball]

and yet jordan still needed an all nba/all defensive teammate to get the job done. and that job becomes much easier when you're facing the johnny newman led teams of the world on a semi-nightly basis.


The Bulls had less talent than every Finals opponent except the Jazz

The 90' Bulls had less help on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs and were considered the biggest 1-man team in history - special Jordan Rules were required to stop the goat scoring champ

So they didn't go from a lottery cast in 1990, to a dynasty cast in 91'.. the stats show that all 6 rings were bigger carry-jobs than 11' Dirk, which is why Jordan's scoring and volume often INCREASED during the championship runs

[Johnny32]

The Bulls had less talent than every Finals opponent except the Jazz

lol. pippen was the second best player in the 91 finals. he was much better than clyde's second option in 92. he was much better than barkley's second option in 93. 96-98 titles are a joke to me and i've already explained why.

[97 bulls]

70 wins isn't realistic in any scenario and are complete outliers

65+ wins = dominance and the super-teams of the 80's did that in spades

Btw, the league was smaller back then, so teams played each other many times and knew each other much better

Also, it's no surprise the 70 win teams didn't occur until players had charter jets and were rested enough to stay at a high level all year

But these teams didnt reach 65 wins or more with expansion. Why not? Again. Follow your own logic. If the Bulls win totals is inflated due to expansion, then why didnt the Pistons and Lakers win totals inflate? Or did it inflate, and they were really mid 50 to low 50 win teams?

That's another question. His many games do the 96 and 97 Bulls win in the 80s?

Oh and another. The 94 Bulls won 55 games with Pippen missing 10 games. How many games do they win with MJ? An upgrade from Grant to Rodman, and a more experienced Kukoc? I ask because this was pre expansion.

[97 bulls]

lol. pippen was the second best player in the 91 finals. he was much better than clyde's second option in 92. he was much better than barkley's second option in 93. 96-98 titles are a joke to me and i've already explained why.

Pippen was arguably the 2nd best player on the court.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls had less talent than every Finals opponent except the Jazz

The 90' Bulls had less help on both sides of the ball than the 05' Cavs and were considered the biggest 1-man team in history - special Jordan Rules were required to stop the goat scoring champ

So they didn't go from a lottery cast in 1990, to a dynasty cast in 91'.. the stats show that all 6 rings were bigger carry-jobs than 11' Dirk, which is why Jordan's scoring and volume often INCREASED during the championship runs

Oh stop it. When it's all said and done, that Bulls team will have Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, Kukoc Kerr, Winter, go into the Hall Of Fame.

Not to mention your argument makes no sense because we saw how these teams faired without their best players. 3pt chemistry ain't the sole reason the 94 Bulls did so much better than the Celtics when Bird went down, the Lakers when Magic went down, The Lakers when Shaq left, hell even the Warriors today.

You like making loser arguments bro. Excuses. I like results. The only thing that matters is wins.

[Bronbron23]

The position itself is weaker than before not necessarily the players.
Well the position is different now. Bigs are operating further away from the basket then they used to. In general they shoot the 3 ball better because of this but they're not as good in the post and mid. It makes sense tbh. There's way more physical contact allowed in the post then there is the perimeter. Teams are just taking advantage of the rules as they should and this is changing the fundamentals and skills of big men.

[Axe]

Dude the 5 position is the weakest it's ever been. Do you even watch games?
That user has been loathing about jordan and everything related to him for many days now. But i feel like it's somebody's dup as usual.

[Bronbron23]

from 1988-1995 the nba added 6 expansion teams. from 96-present they've added one. imagine desperately trying to compare these situations.

Nah your not getting it. The 6 added teams added between 1988-1995 effects the league now as much as it did then. It's still 6 extra teams watering down the league. Well it's worse because as you said now it's 7.

[Manny98]

Because the 90s is the consensus weakest era amongst the NBA community

[BigShotBob]

If the expansion watered down the league then that means the league was watered down ever since (exemplified by some teams facing horrific talent in 1st round playoff series).

[Bronbron23]

That user has been loathing about jordan and everything related to him for many days now. But i feel like it's somebody's dup as usual.

Yeah u never know on this forum

[Bronbron23]

Because the 90s is the consensus weakest era amongst the NBA community

Well among the lebron stan community maybe. To most it was the beginning of the end of real defense.

[guy]

Oh stop it. When it's all said and done, that Bulls team will have Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Jackson, Kukoc Kerr, Winter, go into the Hall Of Fame.

Not to mention your argument makes no sense because we saw how these teams faired without their best players. 3pt chemistry ain't the sole reason the 94 Bulls did so much better than the Celtics when Bird went down, the Lakers when Magic went down, The Lakers when Shaq left, hell even the Warriors today.

You like making loser arguments bro. Excuses. I like results. The only thing that matters is wins.

Kerr??? As a player??

[guy]

If you actually look into it, the way the 80s Lakers and Celtics were formed has very little to do with lack of expansion. Kareem wanted to go to NYC or LA, which would've been his desire with or without more teams in the league. And the way the Lakers got Magic/Worthy has everything to do with incredible luck and how the Celtics got Bird/Parish/McHale has everything to do with Red being so much better as a GM over everyone else.

[AussieSteve]

The post expansion NBA of the late 90s is demonstrably the weakest the NBA had been in its history.

A few years earlier there were 25% fewer teams, so a quarter of every team's roster wouldn't have made the NBA.

A little over a decade later, a quarter of the league was international. So once again those American kids who weren't making the NBA in the 80s, but were in the late 90s, weren't making it again because their spots were taken by international talent.

[ralph_i_el]

The expansion happened before the explosion of foreign talent. We added 2 new teams, but expanded the talent pool by way more than what teams lost due to expansion. We're almost due for another expansion if anything.