The media dumbs it down for Joe the Plumber = false narratives... example inside

[3ball]

.
Max Kellerman: "it's okay that Lebron formed the super-teams because it makes no difference who puts the team together, whether it's the GM or player"


The problem with this oversimplification:

GM's build teams slowly (takes years), while players team up with ready-made stars to form Year 1 league favorites like the 11' Heat or 15' Cavs.

Obviously, it's harder to start with young players and develop favorite status over several years (the GM route), than forming a Year 1 league favorite (player collusion route)

Building a team over several years requires teammate and system development, along with chemistry development, which requires superior skill than teaming up and winning off talent...

As an example - for Pippen to develop, Jordan needed to develop an elite jumper and play off-ball more, whereas ready-made stars don't need to improve each other and can win off talent without good chemistry.


TLDR: it requires far more time and also superior skill to fit with teammates and grow teammates or a brand of ball, which is why organic rings are superior to collusions of superstars (talent-based winning).. Forming the Year 1 league favorite (player collusions) is the easiest route possible and much easier than developing favorite status over several years (GM route)

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd say the guy who determines how good a player is solely by their ppg & efficiency is the one who dumbs things down

And the guy who claims that LeBron isn't even top 10 and Pippen was as good as Boobie Gibson is the one who's pushing false narratives

[1987_Lakers]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)

[3ball]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?475176-AD-is-shedding-light-on-Kareem-s-career-amp-ranking-imo-(new-all-time-rankings-inside)


Sure I troll... like everyone else... And that was a particularly good one that still gets play

But then I have serious threads with legitimate points and substance too... like this one

[3ball]

I'd say the guy who determines how good a player is solely by their ppg & efficiency is the one who dumbs things down

And the guy who claims that LeBron isn't even top 10 and Pippen was as good as Boobie Gibson is the one who's pushing false narratives


PPG and efficiency are the most important factors when evaluating how good someone is in the 2nd option scoring role - there's only 1 such role

And no one said Boobie compares to Pippen

I simply pointed out that Boobie played better than Pippen ever did because it's a low bar.. Lots of bums occasionally reach or exceed Pippen's caliber because it's a low bar

Unfortunately, you simply lie and distort my positions because you can't actually respond to them.. the reason you can't respond is because most of my serious threads are merely reciting the historical record.. they aren't opinion

[1987_Lakers]

Sure I troll... like everyone else... And that was a particularly good one that still gets play

But then I have serious threads with legitimate points and substance too... like this one

troll? In this thread you said you "reversed my stance"


right, a year ago

I've since reversed my stance on ball-handlers vs bigs and made hundreds of posts to educate everyone, so kblaze is trolling and posting old stuff and acting like it's new stuff

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485476-AD-I-will-*follow*-LeBron-to-more-finals/page2

[3ball]

troll? In this thread you said you "reversed my stance"



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?485476-AD-I-will-*follow*-LeBron-to-more-finals/page2


Explaining the troll.. all part of the troll.. most people itt were in on it.. others were fooled (and quite humorously I might add)

[8Ball]

Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.

Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.

I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)

But now AD has his Magic; he has his Oscar, just like Kareem did.. A ring is automatic barring injuries..

But this sheds light on the historical rankings - given this apparent dynamic (that AD and Kareem's teams are only as good as the guys getting them the ball), Kareem should certainly rank below Magic, and historic PG's like Magic and Oscar are more valuable than any big man not named Wilt or Shaq, whose physical dominance controlled games.

However, even though historic PG's have good teams without a dominant big man, they still seem to need an all-time big man to win a championship, while 2-way assassin-style players with scoring versatility, aka MJ, Kobe and even Kawhi seem immune from this need.
.

There is no coming back from this.

AD without LeBron is a bird-fed LOSER according to 3ball.

[8Ball]

Look at AD without LeBron after 9 weeks of Load Management:

1 win / 4 losses.

LeBron was supposed to come back next week but it looks like AD called him and said "Bird Feed me Bron, I can't do it" and is forcing LeBron to come back tonight / Sunday from a dangerous high ankle sprain.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


player collusions are an easier path because they create Year 1 league favorites, thereby skipping the teammate and system development stages of organic teams that require superior skill

[RRR3]

.
Thread Cliffs


player collusions are an easier path because they create Year 1 league favorites, thereby skipping the teammate and system development stages of organic teams that require superior skill
Maybe the Cavs should have surrounded LeBron with sufficient talent and he wouldn’t have left.

[Mauzah]

It's becoming more and more apparent that the players having as much control as they do is actually really bad for the league and its fans.

Organizations at large are losing meaning and soon it will be players flipping other players. Like friends at a park picking the guys they want to run with.

I mean look at the Lakers. They used to be special and they still are but not how they were before. It's sad to watch the sport/league that I love deteriorate like this.

What the hell happened to I LOVE THIS GAME!!!

[3ball]

Maybe the Cavs should have surrounded LeBron with sufficient talent and he wouldn’t have left.


Management gave Lebron enough help to win the East over 1-star teams or fossil teams in 09/10 as the massive favorite

but he couldn't do it aside from the 07' fluke, so he started stacking the deck

Furthermore, Dirk won in 2011 with the organic, 1-star team that lebron thought was impossible..

It was perfect karma because Lebron's Cavs would've been the league favorite for a 3rd year in a row in 2011.. they would've had the deep, organic team needed to beat those Mavs.. and those Cavs were already top defensive and rebounding teams (their calling card).. they would rough up Dirk like the 07' Warriors did

[Ainosterhaspie]

There is no coming back from this.

AD without LeBron is a bird-fed LOSER according to 3ball.

He's actually not too far from the truth, he just can't see it because agenda trumps all. The issue isn't that these guys need to be bird fed. They can get theirs whenever, no elite point guard needed. The problem is they don't create for others, so unless there is a great system in place or a great creator, the offense by the rest of the team struggles to do their part. Add a great facilitator and now there is offense in addition to the great individual scorer and the team starts getting wins.

[3ball]

He's actually not too far from the truth, he just can't see it because agenda trumps all. The issue isn't that these guys need to be bird fed. They can get theirs whenever, no elite point guard needed. The problem is they don't create for others, so unless there is a great system in place or a great creator, the offense by the rest of the team struggles to do their part. Add a great facilitator and now there is offense in addition to the great individual scorer and the team starts getting wins.


The problem is that Lebron only creates assists for himself by distributing

He doesn't create assists FOR TEAMMATES by being an assist target off-ball - teammates actually see their assists crater alongside him, which results in low TEAM assists and the worst Finals teams in 3-pointer history.

Otoh, guys like Jordan, KD, Kawhi, Bird, or Kobe create assists by distributing and being an assist target for teammates off-ball - they possess the elite jumpshooting skill and quick-iso footwork to score quickly upon the catch, and therefore can create offense off-ball

[RRR3]

Duhhhhhhhhh I’m braindead durrrrrr
Yeah I know.

[Axe]

At least kong won without an elite head coach. Baldan couldn't win anything until phil and the triangle.

[3ball]

Yeah I know.


Lebron only creates assists for himself by distributing

He doesn't create assists for teammates by being an assist target off-ball - teammates actually see their assists crater alongside him, which results in low TEAM assists and the worst Finals teams in 3-pointer history.

Otoh, guys like Jordan, KD, Kawhi, Bird, or Kobe create assists by distributing and being an assist target for teammates off-ball - they possess the elite jumpshooting skill and quick-iso footwork to score quickly upon the catch and play off-ball..


TLDR: off-ball is half the game (actually 80% since 4 guys are off-ball and 1 guy has ball)

[RRR3]

Duh huh huhhhhhhhh
:lol

[3ball]

At least kong won without an elite head coach. Baldan couldn't win anything until phil and the triangle.


The 89' Bulls were already a champion if they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - this was proven when Phil lost in 1990 for the same reason Collins lost in 89' (Pippen quit again once the series was tied).

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.

[Ainosterhaspie]

08 Celtics disproves this idea that GM build teams take Years. They built that team in one off season. It wasn't an organic long term building of chemistry. One off season add two stars including a borderline top 10 all time guy and hey, presto, instant title.

Nothing organic about the 80s Lakers with Kareem forcing his waybout of Milwaukee and Magic picking when to join the NBA so he could go to LA. Team instantly wins a title. No long organic process to greatness.

Kobe, Shaq both forced their way to LA. That wasn't an organic GM built team.

On the flip side guys like Garnet, Dirk, Chris Paul languishing on terrible teams for years. Dirk got lucky they put the right roster together a couple of times bit it was fleeting.

The Warriors were organic I guess, only it wasn't about years of building culture, system and familiarity. They hired a new coach who made a bunch of changes to the way they played and turned a little used bench guy a centerpiece. Hey presto instant title.

Spurs play games with Robinson injury so they can draft Duncan. One year of getting his bearings and look there's another instant title. No years of organic growth. Just a smart and lucky front office that manipulated the system to build a dynasty.

Winning titles is about top end talent, depth, coaching, luck, health and chemistry. You can win titles missing one or two of these things, but building dynasties generally requires all of them. Good GMs can make sure the team has most of these things, and bad GMs regularly fail there. A player with a bad GM is doomed to not have all that come together so a dynastic run is possible, and if that's the case there's no reason he shouldn't find a ace where they do all come together.

Kellerman is right. It isn't about who put the team together. The real issue is does the team have the right pieces or can it be trusted to get them.

[Axe]

The 89' Bulls were already a champion if they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - this was proven when Phil lost in 1990 for the same reason Collins lost in 89' (Pippen quit again once the series was tied).

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.
1-9. Remove pippen and it's clear as daylight he doesn't have any winning seasons at all. Plus, like slick pointed out earlier he had five seasons playing without him but none ended up with him winning more than 40 nor a playoff berth.

[Ainosterhaspie]

The problem is that Lebron only creates assists for himself by distributing

He doesn't create assists FOR TEAMMATES by being an assist target off-ball - teammates actually see their assists crater alongside him, which results in low TEAM assists and the worst Finals teams in 3-pointer history.

Otoh, guys like Jordan, KD, Kawhi, Bird, or Kobe create assists by distributing and being an assist target for teammates off-ball - they possess the elite jumpshooting skill and quick-iso footwork to score quickly upon the catch, and therefore can create offense off-ball
Teammates assisting him isn't necessary. He can create for himself. None of the greats need others to create for them, but not all the greats are great at creating for others. The ball movement or great facilitator serves to give a way to help the role players be productive cogs.

Beyond that, I wasn't talking about LeBron. I was responding to the bird fed idea which is about guys like Davis and Kareem. But you have to compulsively make evey discussion about MJ/LeBron so ofncourse you veer from a discussion about Davis and Kareem into making it about LeBron.

[3ball]

Teammates assisting him isn't necessary.





By not being an assist target, Lebron doesn't fit with other spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Wade, Ingram or Hughes, nor does he fit with forwards like Bosh, Love, Jamison, or Kuzma.

So Lebron's low-assisted style makes him a poor fit, which lowers the team ceiling/Finals record of his teams






Teammates assisting him isn't necessary.





It's better for Lebron to get a 30 PER and Larry Hughes to get his max stats of 22/6/5

But with Lebron dominating the ball, some teammates can't play anywhere near their maximum production, so the team can't maximize it's production

It's a skill-deficit - lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall certain player types.. but if he was elite off-ball, then any teammate could maximize their production alongside him, so the team could maximize production






Teammates assisting him isn't necessary.





His inability to be an assist target and the resulting 2 point guard lineups give teammates less ball-time and assists then they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups.. Lower teammate assists result in low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level

Lebron's Finals losses are characterized by massive deficits in team assists - you don't think that's important?

Ultimately, forwards are normally big assist targets, so lebron turns a highly-assisted position into a low-assisted one, thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team.

[Smoke117]

1-9. No Pip, No Chip.

[Manny98]

4 rings in the toughest era ever > 6 rings in the weakest era ever

LeBron had superteam but he also had to go up against superteams every year and was the favourite in only 3/10 finals

Otoh Jordan had the most stacked team in the NBA and was the favourite to win every year

[3ball]

4 rings in the toughest era ever > 6 rings in the weakest era ever

LeBron had superteam but he also had to go up against superteams every year and was the favourite in only 3/10 finals

Otoh Jordan had the most stacked team in the NBA and was the favourite to win every year


Klay and Dray were 1st time all-stars in 2015 when the Warriors shocked everyone in the regular season - so they weren't a super-team, and weren't the pre-season favorite in 15' and 16'

Otoh, the pre-season favorite from 2011-2016 were lebron's super-teams, who fell to underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.. (bron-ball is a low ball-movement/low team assist brand that underachieves a team's talent)

So only lebron had super-teams before the KD Warriors, and Lebron never beat any super-teams

[8Ball]

The 89' Bulls were already a champion if they had a remotely viable cast that could finish a series - this was proven when Phil lost in 1990 for the same reason Collins lost in 89' (Pippen quit again once the series was tied).

Btw, guys like Marc Gasol were DPOY and won 55 games with 2nd Round loss... Ditto Lowry (55 wins with 2nd Round loss).. So everyone does it - the only reason Pippen got props for it is because it was such a shock, and thus a testament to MJ's dominance and carry-jobs.

Ultimately, the triangle is a 55-win offense if run to perfection, but only MJ or his clone (Kobe) could win with it.. Specifically, the offense put role players in optimal spots but still needed a bailout on 10-20% of possessions, so it was nothing for 50 years until it met the goat bailout artists it needed to win (MJ/Kobe) - then it won 11 rings in 18 years.

Pippen wins 55 games.

Jordan doesn't win 55 games without Pippen.

Jordan needs Pippen to break .500.

1-9.

[Manny98]

Klay and Dray were 1st time all-stars in 2015 when the Warriors shocked everyone in the regular season - so they weren't a super-team, and weren't the pre-season favorite in 15' and 16'

Otoh, the pre-season favorite from 2011-2016 were lebron's super-teams, who fell to underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.. (bron-ball is a low ball-movement/low team assist brand that underachieves a team's talent)

So only lebron had super-teams before the KD Warriors, and Lebron never beat any super-teams
https://i.postimg.cc/ydR2PMZx/boston-celtics1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vmgKYJXh/hi-res-7436708-crop-north.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/jdtBHkdq/ux0idYa.jpg

[SATAN]

.
Max Kellerman: "it's okay that Lebron formed the super-teams because it makes no difference who puts the team together, whether it's the GM or player"


The problem with this oversimplification:

GM's build teams slowly (takes years), while players team up with ready-made stars to form Year 1 league favorites like the 11' Heat or 15' Cavs.

Obviously, it's harder to start with young players and develop favorite status over several years (the GM route), than forming a Year 1 league favorite (player collusion route)

Building a team over several years requires teammate and system development, along with chemistry development, which requires superior skill than teaming up and winning off talent...

As an example - for Pippen to develop, Jordan needed to develop an elite jumper and play off-ball more, whereas ready-made stars don't need to improve each other and can win off talent without good chemistry.


TLDR: it requires far more time and also superior skill to fit with teammates and grow teammates or a brand of ball, which is why organic rings are superior to collusions of superstars (talent-based winning).. Forming the Year 1 league favorite (player collusions) is the easiest route possible and much easier than developing favorite status over several years (GM route)


You take Max Kellerman seriously. No one else does. It's supposed to be mindless entertainment for the most part. Everybody else knows that. How do you not realize that these guys get paid to promote gossip? It's toxic for basketball. Like you.

:facepalm

Also, this thread and your post history reeks of Nazi propaganda.


"Goebbels had taking the “Big Lie” angle from his leader, Hitler, who first coined the term in Mein Kampf. In the book, Hitler laid out the reasons why he was targeting the Jews in Germany for extermination. While he said the “Big Lie” was a propaganda technique used by Jews, it was actually outlining the Nazis’ own propaganda technique.

Hitler accused the Jews of using the “Big Lie” to blame Germany’s World War I loss on German general Erich Ludendorff."

You are the Adolf Hitler of ish :facepalm

[AussieSteve]

Joe the plumber played in the NBA in the 90s. Pretty sure he doesn't need the media to dumb things down for him.

[light]

You're off base again for two reasons.

1). It didn't take years for Jerry Krause to put together the 1996 Bulls.


- That super team was ready made and ready to win immediately.

2) It took LeBron a few years to develop the Cavs and the Lakers and turn them into winners.


- It required head coaching changes and some roster shifts. Irving, Love and Davis had no idea how to win before LeBron.

There is no difference between LeBron's work and Jerry Krause's work. LeBron should also enter the Hall of Fame as a General Manager.