If bird had better longevity like mj and bron would he be considered goat?

[Bronbron23]

Bird really only had 8 healthy years compared to MJ's 13 and lebrons 17 and counting. If he had say 15 healthy seasons and assuming his team is still good how does that change things? I think he'd have another ring or 2. This would put mj at 4 or 5 rings making the goat convo between bird, mj and bron very interesting.

Would have to think bird would be ahead of those guys given he would of won his rings while beating multiple goat teams and players.

[LeCola]

Bird started to play when he is 23, Lebron started at 18. He missed 5 years because of his era.

Bird suffered from a serious injury and he couldn't recover well because medicine was not advanced like this era.

While discussing about past you should consider conditions of the era. Can you say "Julius Caesar was not a good soldier because he didn't use tanks and rifles"?

We are talking about 9 healthy years, 3 rings and 3 MVP's. Not just 3 or 4 years. While thinking his era, I think he is the second best player in history.

Also, in 79 he is drafted with his rival Magic. Magic played 11 healthy seasons similar to Bird. Magic has 5 rings and 3 MVP's.

Bird lost 2 finals against Magic-Kareem-Worthy trio during these 9 years.

[Bronbron23]

Bird started to play when he is 23, Lebron started at 18. He missed 5 years because of his era.

Bird suffered from a serious injury and he couldn't recover well because medicine was not advanced like this era.

While discussing about past you should consider conditions of the era. Can you say "Julius Caesar was not a good soldier because he didn't use tanks and rifles"?

We are talking about 9 healthy years, 3 rings and 3 MVP's. Not just 3 or 4 years. While thinking his era, I think he is the second best player in history.

Also, in 79 he is drafted with his rival Magic. Magic played 11 healthy seasons similar to Bird. Magic has 5 rings and 3 MVP's.

Bird lost 2 finals against Magic-Kareem-Worthy trio during these 9 years.

Well bird wasn't the same after 88. He was 31. To put that into perspective if mj and bron were done at 31 they'd each have 3 rings same as bird

[AussieSteve]

Same question could be asked about Magic. He had 3 MVPs and 5 rings and was done at age 31. And in that last season he was runner up in MVP and took the lakers to the finals, so he clearly had more left in the tank.

Even Barkley looked on track for a 2nd srraight MVP in 1994 when he hurt his back at age 30. And had he stayed healthy the Suns would have almost certainly won back championships in 94 and 95, given that they went to 7 games and were 1 possession away from beating the rockets both those years, even with Barkley severely hobbled. He was pretty clearly a back injury away from 2xMVP and 2xFMVP by age 32.

[ELITEpower23]

As of 5-1-2021 Bird is nearly 4,000 points away. In the context of possibility, I guess anything is possible. Maybe Bird could magically double his playoff points :confusedshrug:

https://i.postimg.cc/RFQzDgmX/nearly-4-000-away.png

[FultzNationRISE]

It’s just difficult to assess guys when they play in roughly the same circumstance their whole prime.

A guy like Lebron carried a number of different casts of varying quality and was always productive and winning. Even someone like Dirk, who never changed teams, saw the Mavs thru many different “eras” of personnel, and always kept them relevant.

By the same token, guys like Kobe and MJ struggled without ideal casts around them. With stacked teams they were great and very successful. But their brand of basketball doesnt really elevate a team, it needs an already elevated team around it to be successful.

Guys like Magic and Bird played on stacked teams for all of their relatively short primes. Obviously they were great players. But HOW great? It’s really hard to guage, because we only saw them in ideal circumstances.

Mainly what Im saying is, the only player TRULY qualified to be called GOAT is Lebron.

[LAmbruh]

I don't see how he wouldn't be up there 1a-1b with Lebron at least, certainly surpass MJ.

It's widely understood that if Larry stayed healthy the shift of the entire 90's would have been different, you just don't see Bulls even making the Finals in the first 3peat with a healthy back Bird.

I believe Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against him. 0-10 or something, cray

[sdot_thadon]

Bird really only had 8 healthy years compared to MJ's 13 and lebrons 17 and counting. If he had say 15 healthy seasons and assuming his team is still good how does that change things? I think he'd have another ring or 2. This would put mj at 4 or 5 rings making the goat convo between bird, mj and bron very interesting.

Would have to think bird would be ahead of those guys given he would of won his rings while beating multiple goat teams and players.

Possibly, his career totals would definitely be higher. Would his longevity had taken rings away from other champs? Perhaps Mj himself? If so, sure he'd be ranked much higher.

I'm curious as to why you state "better longevity like Mj and Bron" as if their respective longevities are even close to the same.....the proper way would have been "like Kareem and Bron"

[Bronbron23]

Possibly, his career totals would definitely be higher. Would his longevity had taken rings away from other champs? Perhaps Mj himself? If so, sure he'd be ranked much higher.

I'm curious as to why you state "better longevity like Mj and Bron" as if their respective longevities are even close to the same.....the proper way would have been "like Kareem and Bron"

Yeah could of said kareem but he wasn't the best in the league for as long as mj. Mj maintained his dominance a bit longer. Plus it seems like most people here side with either bron or mj as goat so went with those 2.

[HoopsNY]

Bird really only had 8 healthy years compared to MJ's 13 and lebrons 17 and counting. If he had say 15 healthy seasons and assuming his team is still good how does that change things? I think he'd have another ring or 2. This would put mj at 4 or 5 rings making the goat convo between bird, mj and bron very interesting.

Would have to think bird would be ahead of those guys given he would of won his rings while beating multiple goat teams and players.

The real question, I think, is what would have happened if Bird was healthy AND Reggie Lewis hadn't died. That combination, perhaps, could have yielded more championships.

In the 1991 season, Bird had that team on a 63 win pace. He missed 22 games and the team finished 56-26. A healthy Bird plus a budding Lewis could have really made some noise in the 90s.

[Ainosterhaspie]

13 Seasons is a real stretch for MJ. Not sure why we're counting his mostly injured sophomore year and 95, and rookie Bird was much more successful than rookie Jordan. Probably should go with 10 years for Jordan which isn't a big longevity edge for him.

[Bronbron23]

The real question, I think, is what would have happened if Bird was healthy AND Reggie Lewis hadn't died. That combination, perhaps, could have yielded more championships.

In the 1991 season, Bird had that team on a 63 win pace. He missed 22 games and the team finished 56-26. A healthy Bird plus a budding Lewis could have really made some noise in the 90s.

Yeah Reggie was nice. Gaurded mj well too and bird often torched the bulls so that team would match up well against mj.

[Bronbron23]

13 Seasons is a real stretch for MJ. Not sure why we're counting his mostly injured sophomore year and 95, and rookie Bird was much more successful than rookie Jordan. Probably should go with 10 years for Jordan which isn't a big longevity edge for him.

Well he was one of the best players in the league from jump so 84, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91,92, 95, 96, 97. That's 11. 85 and 94 have to count for something so around 12 years is more accurate. Compared to birds 8 or 9 and Kareems 11. Like i said though definitely could of went with kareem.

[mr4speed]

The real question, I think, is what would have happened if Bird was healthy AND Reggie Lewis hadn't died. That combination, perhaps, could have yielded more championships.

In the 1991 season, Bird had that team on a 63 win pace. He missed 22 games and the team finished 56-26. A healthy Bird plus a budding Lewis could have really made some noise in the 90s.

Great point and I must mention the death of Len Bias. Maryland coach Lefty Driesell when asked about the 87 Finals thought with Len Bias on the Celtics, that Boston would have won. If Bias keeps Bird and McHale rested, maybe McHale does not suffer his leg injury? And if Parish (ankle) and Walton (foot) were healthy and with Bias on that team = Boston wins in 87 for sure. IF that had happened, Boston would have been the first team to repeat since Boston did it in 1969 and that would have been a big deal and Bird would then have 4 rings. And Bias and Reggie Lewis would have been great match ups vs the Bulls. It would have been great...

[HoopsNY]

Great point and I must mention the death of Len Bias. Maryland coach Lefty Driesell when asked about the 87 Finals thought with Len Bias on the Celtics, that Boston would have won. If Bias keeps Bird and McHale rested, maybe McHale does not suffer his leg injury? And if Parish (ankle) and Walton (foot) were healthy and with Bias on that team = Boston wins in 87 for sure. IF that had happened, Boston would have been the first team to repeat since Boston did it in 1969 and that would have been a big deal and Bird would then have 4 rings. And Bias and Reggie Lewis would have been great match ups vs the Bulls. It would have been great...

Crazy to fathom this thought. Who knows really. Imagine NBA history with no injuries. What would the outcomes really look like? That probably deserves a thread itself. lol

[Axe]

Likely. His career would have been far more successful too if in mid 80s the celtics weren't struck with terrible misfortunes.

[John8204]

Not only longevity but hey Len Bias might have been Jordan's greatest rival, how much damage does Len Bias do to Jordan's legacy.

[Spurs m8]

Not only longevity but hey Len Bias might have been Jordan's greatest rival, how much damage does Len Bias do to Jordan's legacy.

Is this Axe?

These kind of bumps and writings have Axe all over it

[iamgine]

Bird's numbers went down a lot in the playoff so I don't think so.

[John8204]

Is this Axe?

These kind of bumps and writings have Axe all over it

Complain to the mods to check my IP address. Seems like this place is 90% Jordan vs Lebron and that's boring to me

[Axe]

Is this Axe?

These kind of bumps and writings have Axe all over it
Stfu inbred m8

[Micku]

Well, Bird got hurt before he even got the league. His finger was busted if I can recall. He even said it himself that he could never feel the ball right once that accident happened. I think he and/or other ppl said that he would've been a better shooter if he was.

So a completely healthy Bird with his back wouldn't have gave out, might have the same career, but with better stats. But we'll never know. While his back really did screwed things up in terms of Boston being a contender, it was the whole team. They were getting older and injuries were pilling up. It wasn't just Bird. Mchale's foot was never the same either after 87. I think he injured it before the playoffs, but prior to the foot injury, Mchale evaluated his game to another lvl. The whole team in 87 played hurt. I forgot who said it. I don't know if it was Bill Simmons, Mchale or Bird, but they said if Mchale didn't hurt his foot, they thought Mchale would've contested Magic's game winner sky hook better.

Bird I think was injured in 85. Like he injured his hand in a bar fight. I don't know if this was before or after he hurt his back, but he did hurt his back sometime in 85.

So maybe, maybe they could've won it in 85. But Bird being completely healthy in 87 probably wouldn't change that much due to everyone else being hurt. If he would've hit that one shot in 87, it might've changed the series. Nobody would talk about the sky hook. I don't know if that's due to his back not feeling right or just him missing the shot haha. He did say he was the healthiest of the team that playoffs.

But ultimately, I don't think Bird being healthy would change too much. The team itself were getting older and injury prone. Like I said earlier, he'll probably have the same career with better stats. His last few years, the injuries just pilled up and he wasn't the same.

But Bird was a badass tho. He played through back pain without any pain killers, shot or anything. So, I think Bird would've been a better player than what he was, but I don't know if that would actually get him more championships. The doctor didn't know how he played with his back being so screwed up like that.

https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-impressed-robert-parish-by-playing-through-a-brutal-back-injury-without-any-assistance-no-shots-no-pills-nothing/

As someone said, Len Bias could've made a huge impact tho. MJ vs Len Bias would've been the hype, but I don't know if it'll live up to the hype in the nba. But it could've been a great rivalry if it did.

[kawhileonard2]

Bird really only had 8 healthy years compared to MJ's 13 and lebrons 17 and counting. If he had say 15 healthy seasons and assuming his team is still good how does that change things? I think he'd have another ring or 2. This would put mj at 4 or 5 rings making the goat convo between bird, mj and bron very interesting.

Would have to think bird would be ahead of those guys given he would of won his rings while beating multiple goat teams and players.

He already lost 7 series with HCA.

[mr4speed]

He already lost 7 series with HCA.
And HCA was proven not to mean much = those Sixer teams were just as good as Boston. Bird's rookie season Boston won 61 games and I think Philly won 60? No real advantage there and Sixers proved it.Then in 81 Philly was up 3-1 before Boston won 3 in a row. The East was the better conference and nobody dominated like LA did in the West. IMO the HCA is a minor thing.

[kawhileonard2]

And HCA was proven not to mean much = those Sixer teams were just as good as Boston. Bird's rookie season Boston won 61 games and I think Philly won 60? No real advantage there and Sixers proved it.Then in 81 Philly was up 3-1 before Boston won 3 in a row. The East was the better conference and nobody dominated like LA did in the West. IMO the HCA is a minor thing.

HCA is a big issue it means you were the favorite. Of course this only applies when playing on your own home floor.

[mr4speed]

HCA is a big issue it means you were the favorite. Of course this only applies when playing on your own home floor.
HCA is overrated as these Sixer and Celtic teams were as even as you could get. The 80 Celtics were a 61 win team and the 80 Sixers were a 59 win team. In 81 Celts were a 62 win team and the Sixers also won 62 games! In 82 Celts were a 63 win team and Sixers were a 58 win team. Over an 82 game season, a few extra wins does not constitute a clear favorite. Every game these teams played was up for grabs.

[Round Mound]

I think Bird would have been the goat if he had Tom Chambers-like athletic ability. When healthy in his 20s he wasn't that bad of an athlete but he wasn't blessed with being too fast or jump out of the gym. I don't value longevity much so for me Bird is the goat team player. Few players dominated like he did in 85-86.

[hateraid]

To think laying bricks on a driveway was his demise.
Bird, or even magic with today's conditioning would be another level. Players in the 80's took smoke breaks at half. That's how poorly they treated their bodies

[hateraid]

Well, Bird got hurt before he even got the league. His finger was busted if I can recall. He even said it himself that he could never feel the ball right once that accident happened. I think he and/or other ppl said that he would've been a better shooter if he was.

So a completely healthy Bird with his back wouldn't have gave out, might have the same career, but with better stats. But we'll never know. While his back really did screwed things up in terms of Boston being a contender, it was the whole team. They were getting older and injuries were pilling up. It wasn't just Bird. Mchale's foot was never the same either after 87. I think he injured it before the playoffs, but prior to the foot injury, Mchale evaluated his game to another lvl. The whole team in 87 played hurt. I forgot who said it. I don't know if it was Bill Simmons, Mchale or Bird, but they said if Mchale didn't hurt his foot, they thought Mchale would've contested Magic's game winner sky hook better.

Bird I think was injured in 85. Like he injured his hand in a bar fight. I don't know if this was before or after he hurt his back, but he did hurt his back sometime in 85.

So maybe, maybe they could've won it in 85. But Bird being completely healthy in 87 probably wouldn't change that much due to everyone else being hurt. If he would've hit that one shot in 87, it might've changed the series. Nobody would talk about the sky hook. I don't know if that's due to his back not feeling right or just him missing the shot haha. He did say he was the healthiest of the team that playoffs.

But ultimately, I don't think Bird being healthy would change too much. The team itself were getting older and injury prone. Like I said earlier, he'll probably have the same career with better stats. His last few years, the injuries just pilled up and he wasn't the same.

But Bird was a badass tho. He played through back pain without any pain killers, shot or anything. So, I think Bird would've been a better player than what he was, but I don't know if that would actually get him more championships. The doctor didn't know how he played with his back being so screwed up like that.

https://www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-impressed-robert-parish-by-playing-through-a-brutal-back-injury-without-any-assistance-no-shots-no-pills-nothing/

As someone said, Len Bias could've made a huge impact tho. MJ vs Len Bias would've been the hype, but I don't know if it'll live up to the hype in the nba. But it could've been a great rivalry if it did.

Reggie Lewis would have been a formidable rival. He defended Jordan very well. His jump shot was more advanced earlier in their careers. What is...

[jayfan]

Better longevity due to no back problems?

Possibly.


.

[AussieSteve]

I think Bird would have been the goat if he had Tom Chambers-like athletic ability. When healthy in his 20s he wasn't that bad of an athlete but he wasn't blessed with being too fast or jump out of the gym. I don't value longevity much so for me Bird is the goat team player. Few players dominated like he did in 85-86.

What do you think happens to Barkley's all time status if he didn't hurt his back in 94?

Given his stats and the Suns 65-win pace at that point, I think its fair to say he was on track for a 2nd MVP. And given the Suns lost to the rockets by a bucket in game 7 in both 94 and 95, I think its likely that he gets 2 chips and FMVPs as well.

Do you think that would have put him top 10? Peak wise he's already in the top 10 convo IMO.

[Round Mound]

What do you think happens to Barkley's all time status if he didn't hurt his back in 94?

Given his stats and the Suns 65-win pace at that point, I think its fair to say he was on track for a 2nd MVP. And given the Suns lost to the rockets by a bucket in game 7 in both 94 and 95, I think its likely that he gets 2 chips and FMVPs as well.

Do you think that would have put him top 10? Peak wise he's already in the top 10 convo IMO.

If he didn't get hurt he probably would remain the 2nd best player in the league as he was from 89 to 93. Sadly his lack of conditioning and being over 30 it was visible that that he would not last that long. At 6'4 5/8 ft he needed his jumping ability, mobility, agility etc to dominate like he used in that mentioned span of years. Barkley peak wise is easily a top 10-15 player IMO aswell.