The biggest lie about Lebron's career is that

[3ball]

.
he can lead bums to the playoffs (replacement level players)



* Zydrunas was the East all-star center - not a bum

* Hughes was a 22/5/5 all-defender - not a bum

* Brown was the future COY - not a bum.

* the Cavs were a top defense and rebounding team - not bummy


Lebron literally had developed, high seeds everytime he made the playoffs that included all-stars and other decorated players, along with great defenses and rebounding.. he virtually NEVER led a bum cast to the playoffs.

he actually missed the playoffs with Ingram/Rondo or the East all-star center (Zydrunas), and needed ridiculous additions to make the playoffs

Ultimately, Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs and was in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the COY, and top rebounding/defensive teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

[8Ball]

1-9

[3ball]

1-9


When did Lebron make the playoffs with a bunch of replacement players?

It never happened

It's a lie that you believed




1-9


I could understand if this was the 80's East, which required a super-team to win it

But this was a conference that 1-star teams routinely won!!..

So having numerous decorated players and top defenses is enough to win the conference




1-9


Making the playoffs with numerous decorated players and a top defense doesn't deserve props

Yet people lie and say that the East all-star center is a bum and lebron carried bums to the playoffs

Ultimately, Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs and was in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the COY, and top rebounding/defensive teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

[FKAri]

COTY is such a meaningless award. It often doesn't even go to the best coach. It's basically a "This team seems motivated but beyond that I can't explain why this team is over performing so it must be the coach" - award. Yet another piece of evidence that on the professional level, basketball is the most embarrassing major sport on the planet.

[3ball]

COTY is such a meaningless award. It often doesn't even go to the best coach. It's basically a "This team seems motivated but beyond that I can't explain why this team is over performing so it must be the coach" - award. Yet another piece of evidence that on the professional level, basketball is the most embarrassing major sport on the planet.


How did the Cavs take the 08' Celtics to 7 games with Lebron wetting the bed with 26 on 35%

It was Coach Brown and his top rated defenses during his tenure.... Brown is a great defensive coach

Ultimately, Zydrunas was the East all-star center, and Hughes was a 22/5/5 acquisition - so when did Lebron lead bums to the Playoffs???






basketball is the most embarrassing major sport on the planet


.


It's become an embarrassment

Ultimately, Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs and was in a conference that required a super-team to win it,

Otoh, Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the COY, and top rebounding/defensive teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

Night and day

[Wally450]

1-9

No Pip no chip

Triggered

Lebron James

[tontoz]

Hughes wasn't very good. For his career he averaged 14 ppg shooting 40.6%. Most seasons his TS was sub 50%. Never made the All Star Game.

Below average starter i would say.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Hughes wasn't very good. For his career he averaged 14 ppg shooting 40.6%. Most seasons his TS was sub 50%. Never made the All Star Game.

Below average starter i would say.
But in 3ball world his best season is permanently the quality of his play and if he did less than that with LeBron, it's LeBrons fault.

[LeCola]

Lebron is just a project to make people watch NBA.

[tontoz]

But in 3ball world his best season is permanently the quality of his play and if he did less than that with LeBron, it's LeBrons fault.

Hughes also had injury issues throughout his career. He had only 3 seasons playing at least 70 games.

[3ball]

Hughes wasn't very good. For his career he averaged 14 ppg shooting 40.6%. Most seasons his TS was sub 50%. Never made the All Star Game.

Below average starter i would say.


Arenas and his elite shooting/off-ball game got Scottie Pippen performance out of Hughes:


05' Hughes...... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


Hughes was 1st team all-defense and averaged 22/6/5 (peak Pippen)

So the 06 Cavs had a player that could produce like Pippen on both ends and a 2-time all-star center (05' and 06' Zydrunas completely destroys 90' Pippen)

[bullettooth]

1-9

This is the only argument Bron jock sniffers have.

[tontoz]

Arenas and his elite shooting/off-ball game got Scottie Pippen performance out of Hughes:


05' Hughes...... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP
90' Pippen.....'.. 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP


Hughes was 1st team all-defense and averaged 22/6/5 (peak Pippen)

That season was an outlier. He didn't make the All Star team that year either. His first season with the Wizards he averaged 12.8 ppg at age 24.

He played only 36 games in his first season with the Cavs. Must have been Lebron's fault somehow.

[8Ball]

This is the only argument Bron jock sniffers have.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/937/628/47c.jpg

[8Ball]

When did Lebron make the playoffs with a bunch of replacement players?

It never happened

It's a lie that you believed






I could understand if this was the 80's East, which required a super-team to win it

But this was a conference that 1-star teams routinely won!!..

So having numerous decorated players and top defenses is enough to win the conference






Making the playoffs with numerous decorated players and a top defense doesn't deserve props

Yet people lie and say that the East all-star center is a bum and lebron carried bums to the playoffs

Ultimately, Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs and was in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had a 2-time all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, the COY, and top rebounding/defensive teams in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won

What's all this copy paste? The answer to this thread is still:


1-9

No Pip

No Chip

[ShawkFactory]

But in 3ball world his best season is permanently the quality of his play and if he did less than that with LeBron, it's LeBrons fault.

I already debunked the whole Hughes thing. 2005 was clearly an outlier season for him. Looking at the years previous and the years after, he was a very inefficient shooter without much else to his game offensively. He had multiple seasons of under 40% from the field. Hell, even in 05 he shot 28% form 3 on over 4 attempts :lol

And as someone already mentioned, he was never even remotely healthy in his career. Even in that 05 season he still missed 20+ games.

He was not a good offensive player who had one outlier season in which he only played 2/3rds of the year.

And if IF we're saying that 2005 is who he was as a player...he had 2 surgeries in 2006 and was never the same.

[3ball]

That season was an outlier. He didn't make the All Star team that year either. His first season with the Wizards he averaged 12.8 ppg at age 24.

He played only 36 games in his first season with the Cavs. Must have been Lebron's fault somehow.


Hughes wasn't even 2nd option:


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
06' Zydrunas.... 16/8 and 1.7 blocks.. 21.9 PER.. 0.184 WS/48.. #14 team defense

90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense


Bottom line:

Lebron needed the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, and the future COY (good team defense) to make the playoffs in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs in a conference that required a super-team to win it.




That season was an outlier. He didn't make the All Star team that year either. His first season with the Wizards he averaged 12.8 ppg at age 24.

He played only 36 games in his first season with the Cavs. Must have been Lebron's fault somehow.


05' Zydrunas.... 17/9 and 2.1 blocks.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blocks.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48.. #19 team defense

So the 90' Bulls nearly won the title with a worse cast than the 05' Cavs on both sides of the ball, whereas prime Lebron needed far better teams than the 05' Cavs to be title-worthy...

[1987_Lakers]

Thread Cliffs...

1-9

[tpols]

I'm guilty of it as well, but people never mention Big Z as his help even though he was a multiple time all star. And perfect fit... A jumpshooting 7 footer with great offensive skill. The Cavs nearly beat the 2008 Celtics with LeBron shooting atrociously. That's how stacked they were.

[tontoz]

Pippens career TS is 5% better than Hughes. He also averaged more points (in spite of playing until 38. Hughes was done at 33), rebounds, assists, steals and of course being a better defender.

Pippen had 5 seasons averaging at least 19 ppg. Hughes only did it once.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm guilty of it as well, but people never mention Big Z as his help even though he was a multiple time all star. And perfect fit... A jumpshooting 7 footer with great offensive skill. The Cavs nearly beat the 2008 Celtics with LeBron shooting atrociously. That's how stacked they were.
:oldlol:

They made it up to him the next year wasting his near 40 ppg series against Orlando

[ShawkFactory]

There's this (which really tells you all you need to know; Larry Hughes has utmost respect for Lebron):

https://*********.com/2020/03/31/nba-rumors-larry-hughes-lebron-james-michael-jordan-allen-iverson-wizards-cavaliers-bulls-washington-retired-basketball-academy-jayson-tatum/

But another fun tidbit about Hughes: he's a career 36% shooter in the playoffs..in 49 games. So no small sample

[TheCorporation]

1-9

No Pip no chip

Triggered

Lebron James

[3ball]

I'm guilty of it as well, but people never mention Big Z as his help even though he was a multiple time all star. And perfect fit... A jumpshooting 7 footer with great offensive skill. The Cavs nearly beat the 2008 Celtics with LeBron shooting atrociously. That's how stacked they were.


Lebron never led a "bum cast" to the Playoffs because 05' Zydrunas was the #6 rim protector and a 2-time all-star.

Having an all-star precludes your cast from being a "bum" cast... So getting a 22/5/5 acquisition in 2006 is gravy, along with other vets like Gooden and Varejao that had higher PER and doubled the WS/48 of 90' Pippen - that's 4 teammates with higher PER and double the WS/48 of 90' Pippen.

That's easily enough to compete in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had literally nothing when he made the playoffs in a conference that required a super-team to win it

[tpols]

:oldlol:

They made it up to him the next year wasting his near 40 ppg series against Orlando

It is odd but it is what it is. The Cavs were so close to knocking off a dynasty level team with LeBron getting totally shut down. How can they be poor help like you guys said they were if they were capable of doing that?

[SouBeachTalents]

It is odd but it is what it is. The Cavs were so close to knocking off a dynasty level team with LeBron getting totally shut down. How can they be poor help like you guys said they were if they were capable of doing that?
LeBron was ATROCIOUS the first 4 games of that series, so credit to the Cavs for nearly stealing Game 1 and splitting the first 2 games. But I won't ignore fact LeBron averaged 40 ppg over the final 2 games in Boston and the Cavs still lost both

[3ball]

:oldlol:

They made it up to him the next year wasting his near 40 ppg series against Orlando


Teammates didn't waste shit - Lebron simply can't win with high scoring (35+) outside the 1st round because high scoring from Lebron equals over-dribbling rim attacks, which loses to the ball movement (superior strategy) of top teams.

Otoh, Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill allowed the best strategy (ball movement), so high scoring from Jordan frequently won.. Jordan won countless series with 35+, even 40+... even 45

Furthermore, defenses wait for Lebron at the rim with multiple bodies and allow him single coverage on the perimeter because he doesn't take contested jumpers and rarely gets "hot"/takes over.. Stan Van Gundy said that they wanted Lebron to "dribble and get stats" because he isn't a jumpshooter that requires double-teaming, and his long dribbling can't out-pace good jumpshooting.

Lebron's weak jumpshooting ultimately cost the Cavs in the clutch because Lebron shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th and lost 3 fourth quarter leads, while getting dominated in the Game 4 OT that swung the series.

Ultimately, Lebron can't beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - that means he has zero carry-jobs in 2 decades of playing.. this is because he's poor at the additional contested jumpshooting required of tough carry-jobs - the stats show that he doesn't take contested jumpers

[ShawkFactory]

LeBron was ATROCIOUS the first 4 games of that series, so credit to the Cavs for nearly stealing Game 1 and splitting the first 2 games. But I won't ignore fact LeBron averaged 40 ppg over the final 2 games in Boston and the Cavs still lost both

I think you can credit Paul Pierce for that one. That was probably the worst game of Bron's career but PP was even worse.

Ray Allen also didn't hit a field goal.

[WhiteKyrie]

I mean besides his stats much of his career is a facade. Especially if you were to consider him a winner :oldlol:

He had to bounce from franchise to franchise and stack the deck talent wise in order to win.

Was part of the crew to cowardly assemble the first in their prime colluding free agency super team. DidnÂ’t live up to even his own personal expectations or bragging about that. Got curb stopped by an old San Antonio Spurs team.

Three of his four championships came in suspect seasons.

2012, a lockout shortened one. With a massive Derrick Rose injury that totally altered his in conference competition. Which forever after was total dog shit, meaning a red carpet to easy finals appearances

2016 with the referee assistance visibly. Including the suspension of Draymond Green.

And then last year with the stagnated bubble playoff, that certain teams didnÂ’t even take seriously and were itching to get home. Not to mention the fact that once he joined the Lakers they were in the lottery until they acquired Anthony Davis through more collusion nefarious means, from his own sports agency.

And then even funnier, Anthony Davis was by far the Lakers best player last year. Both regular season and playoffs.

[3ball]

Here's what we know:

Lebron's first playoff teams had the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, and the future COY (good team defense) in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Furthermore, the Cavs had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs in Year 3 as a seasoned, veteran team with numerous decorated players, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing





8ball.. Axe... SouBeach.. Anyone?

[3ball]

I mean besides his stats much of his career is a facade. Especially if you were to consider him a winner :oldlol:

He had to bounce from franchise to franchise and stack the deck talent wise in order to win.

Was part of the crew to cowardly assemble the first in their prime colluding free agency super team. DidnÂ’t live up to even his own personal expectations or bragging about that. Got curb stopped by an old San Antonio Spurs team.

Three of his four championships came in suspect seasons.

2012, a lockout shortened one. With a massive Derrick Rose injury that totally altered his in conference competition. Which forever after was total dog shit, meaning a red carpet to easy finals appearances

2016 with the referee assistance visibly. Including the suspension of Draymond Green.

And then last year with the stagnated bubble playoff, that certain teams didnÂ’t even take seriously and were itching to get home. Not to mention the fact that once he joined the Lakers they were in the lottery until they acquired Anthony Davis through more collusion nefarious means, from his own sports agency.

And then even funnier, Anthony Davis was by far the Lakers best player last year. Both regular season and playoffs.


Exactly

And people don't realize that the Cavs had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs in Year 3 as a developed, high seed with numerous decorated players, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing

[tpols]

because he isn't a jumpshooter that requires double-teaming, and his long dribbling can't out-pace good jumpshooting.


Its hilarious that you make this argument but then discount Golden States GOAT ball movement offense and shooting. Just seems like conflicting agendas with differing topics. One day GOAT shooting matters, the next day it doesn't.

[tontoz]

Its hilarious that you make this argument but then discount Golden States GOAT ball movement offense and shooting. Just seems like conflicting agendas with differing topics.


Moving the goalposts is a 3ball specialty.

[ShawkFactory]

Its hilarious that you make this argument but then discount Golden States GOAT ball movement offense and shooting. Just seems like conflicting agendas with differing topics. One day GOAT shooting matters, the next day it doesn't.

:roll::roll::roll:

Wait...are you just now noticing that this is what he does for every argument ever?! I'm confused because I thought you just poked your head in for the trolling. But you seem serious here. Maybe you just never actually noticed the shit he was saying and how he went about it?

Or maybe you're now just trolling on a deeper level..

[tpols]

:roll::roll::roll:

Wait...are you just now noticing that this is what he does for every argument ever?! I'm confused because I thought you just poked your head in for the trolling. But you seem serious here. Maybe you just never actually noticed the shit he was saying and how he went about it?

Or maybe you're now just trolling on a deeper level..

He doesn't do it for every topic, but only specifically when Golden State is involved. 3balls arguments on ball movement and shooting are congruent across all of his topics except when the Warriors are involved. Or the mid 2000s Suns. GOAT shooting and team offenses and team assist ranks define his LeBron vs MJ debates since MJ allows for better ranks across the board in that respect and thus greater team success. But for some reason he just can't let go of the fact that's 3s are worth more than 2s lol.

[RRR3]

Bron haters with their daily temper tantrum. Yawn.

[ShawkFactory]

He doesn't do it for every topic, but only specifically when Golden State is involved. 3balls arguments on ball movement and shooting are congruent across all of his topics except when the Warriors are involved. Or the mid 2000s Suns. GOAT shooting and team offenses and team assist ranks define his LeBron vs MJ debates since MJ allows for better ranks across the board in that respect and thus greater team success. But for some reason he just can't let go of the fact that's 3s are worth more than 2s lol.
Yes, he does.

His ball movement argument is congruent in regards to MJ and Lebron because it allows for his ultimate conclusion (MJ > Lebron; which no one even really disagrees with). When his ultimate agenda is challenged, or is no longer a point of discussion, then the goal posts move.

There are plenty of topics that he does this with regarding MJ and Lebron, and particularly Pippen. Ball movement isn't his only topic.

You just don't see it in other areas because you hate Lebron too. You only notice when it happens when it's a guy you like. Which makes sense..

[SouBeachTalents]

I mean besides his stats much of his career is a facade. Especially if you were to consider him a winner :oldlol:

He had to bounce from franchise to franchise and stack the deck talent wise in order to win.

Was part of the crew to cowardly assemble the first in their prime colluding free agency super team. DidnÂ’t live up to even his own personal expectations or bragging about that. Got curb stopped by an old San Antonio Spurs team.

Three of his four championships came in suspect seasons.

2012, a lockout shortened one. With a massive Derrick Rose injury that totally altered his in conference competition. Which forever after was total dog shit, meaning a red carpet to easy finals appearances

2016 with the referee assistance visibly. Including the suspension of Draymond Green.

And then last year with the stagnated bubble playoff, that certain teams didnÂ’t even take seriously and were itching to get home. Not to mention the fact that once he joined the Lakers they were in the lottery until they acquired Anthony Davis through more collusion nefarious means, from his own sports agency.

And then even funnier, Anthony Davis was by far the Lakers best player last year. Both regular season and playoffs.
:oldlol:

AD was "by far" better when LeBron finished higher in MVP voting and won unanimous FMVP

[Ainosterhaspie]

Winning a single COY means nothing. No one cares especially when the guy has zero success as head coach without LeBron.

No cares about Larry Hughes. He's a punch line. He had some moderately high volume years on terrible efficiency before joining LeBron at which time he promptly faced injury problems and never again reached the utterly forgettable mediocre heights he had previously achieved.

No one cares about Ilgauskas. Yes he was a decent center, but he led the Cavs to the worst record in the league prior to LeBron showing up. Nothing about that says game changer or impresses anyone.

You constantly prop up average or slightly above average at best players like they are some sort of game changers and they aren't. Sooner or later you face a team with actual depth or a bunch of other mediocre role players who happen to be hot (see Magic '09) and lose.

LeBron left the Cavs in '11 and they were promptly a disaster and blew up that supposed competitive roster after a third of the season because they were a complete dumpster fire without LeBron.

The Heat were a better team when he left them and managed to stay afloat, but second stint Cavs were again the worst roster in the league when he left and he managed to win the conference, somehow winning a series without a single double digit scoring teammate. His best teammate scoring wise did worse than the 7th highest scorer on the opposing team in one series.

Almost none of his team's could sustain even a .500 pace without him on the floor, yet when healthy, he hasn't lost outside the finals in a decade. And LeBron ball dominance preventi g his team from developing a system, blah, blah, blah, has nothing to do with it.

Irving can drive and dish just like LeBron. Why couldn't he sustain the offense and get wins with LeBron out? Same with Wade. And by the way, the Heat didn't play LeBron Ball. That was a Cavaliers thing because Lue had no idea how to run an offense besides play fast and watch LeBron and Irving create.

The idea that LeBron hasn't time and time again elevated absolute trash rosters is beyond ignorant.

And every time this stupid take rears it's head the 1-9 mockery is completely justified because because fact is Jordan never did squat without a strong roster which actually proved it's quality when he was gone. This take completely ignores what actually happened, replacing it with fantasy proxies by plucking out a few random performances that didn't happen at the same time or in the year relevant to the discussion, passes them together read acts like they mean more than what actually happened.

Let's see. Hugh's was good in 04 before playing with LeBron. Ilgauskas got his last all star in the 05 season when LeBron still couldn't legally drink and Brown got COY one time a couple years later. Despite none of those things overlapping at the same time, they somehow mean more than what actually happened on the court in completely different years. This thread stacks absurdity on absurdity and deserves nothing more than the 1-9 responses it's mostly gotten.

[SouBeachTalents]

Winning a single COY means nothing. No one cares especially when the guy has zero success as head coach without LeBron.

No cares about Larry Hughes. He's a punch line. He had some moderately high volume years on terrible efficiency before joining LeBron at which time he promptly faced injury problems and never again reached the utterly forgettable mediocre heights he had previously achieved.

No one cares about Ilgauskas. Yes he was a decent center, but he led the Cavs to the worst record in the league prior to LeBron showing up. Nothing about that says game changer or impresses anyone.

You constantly prop up average or slightly above average at best players like they are some sort of game changers and they aren't. Sooner or later you face a team with actual depth or a bunch of other mediocre role players who happen to be hot (see Magic '09) and lose.

LeBron left the Cavs in '11 and they were promptly a disaster and blew up that supposed competitive roster after a third of the season because they were a complete dumpster fire without LeBron.

The Heat were a better team when he left them and managed to stay afloat, but second stint Cavs were again the worst roster in the league when he left and he managed to win the conference, somehow winning a series without a single double digit scoring teammate. His best teammate scoring wise did worse than the 7th highest scorer on the opposing team in one series.

Almost none of his team's could sustain even a .500 pace without him on the floor, yet when healthy, he hasn't lost outside the finals in a decade. And LeBron ball dominance preventi g his team from developing a system, blah, blah, blah, has nothing to do with it.

Irving can drive and dish just like LeBron. Why couldn't he sustain the offense and get wins with LeBron out? Same with Wade. And by the way, the Heat didn't play LeBron Ball. That was a Cavaliers thing because Lue had no idea how to run an offense besides play fast and watch LeBron and Irving create.

The idea that LeBron hasn't time and time again elevated absolute trash rosters is beyond ignorant.

And every time this stupid take rears it's head the 1-9 mockery is completely justified because because fact is Jordan never did squat without a strong roster which actually proved it's quality when he was gone. This take completely ignores what actually happened, replacing it with fantasy proxies by plucking out a few random performances that didn't happen at the same time or in the year relevant to the discussion, passes them together read acts like they mean more than what actually happened.

Let's see. Hugh's was good in 04 before playing with LeBron. Ilgauskas got his last all star in the 05 season when LeBron still couldn't legally drink and Brown got COY one time a couple years later. Despite none of those things overlapping at the same time, they somehow mean more than what actually happened on the court in completely different years. This thread stacks absurdity on absurdity and deserves nothing more than the 1-9 responses it's mostly gotten.
:applause:

Guaranteed he's just gonna make the exact same argument he's already posted 5 times :lol

Lebron needed the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, and the future COY (good team defense) to make the playoffs in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

[mehyaM24]

giving this dude way more replies than necessary. what's more these talking points have been refuted time and again. i mean, now we're seeing lists with mike brown as a "future coy". mr. ****ing potato head. which also exposes the op's hypocrisy.

before 90, we often hear about mj carrying bums. so why isn't pippen considered a "future" all-star & all-leaguer"? :confusedshrug:

[FKAri]

He doesn't do it for every topic, but only specifically when Golden State is involved. 3balls arguments on ball movement and shooting are congruent across all of his topics except when the Warriors are involved. Or the mid 2000s Suns. GOAT shooting and team offenses and team assist ranks define his LeBron vs MJ debates since MJ allows for better ranks across the board in that respect and thus greater team success. But for some reason he just can't let go of the fact that's 3s are worth more than 2s lol.

No. He almost always does it. His thesis is often widely accepted but he then brings out retarded arguments to back it up.

3ball in a nutshell: "The ocean is blue... because it reflects the sky. Notice how water isn't blue indoors. [Nicely formatted chart with various pics of his bathtub and the ocean]"

[Taurus]

I open this thread and see Larry Hughes being compared to Pippen and Mike Brown being defended as a coach. That's my cue to get out.

[Manny98]

Jordan missed the playoffs with Hughes...

[Ainosterhaspie]

I open this thread and see Larry Hughes being compared to Pippen and Mike Brown being defended as a coach. That's my cue to get out.
Welcome to every 3ball thread.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Take something like ball movement and off ball play. Fairly universally acknowledged to be a good thing. But in 3ball world things like having a coach who can devise and implement an effective system, and players who can pass, make good reads and quick decisions, and actually catch the ball are ignored. Take one or more of those things out and you aren't likely to have an effective system. Doesn't matter how good a player is off ball if no one can get him the ball or capitalize on ways he compromises the defense with his movement.

[TheCorporation]

Jordan won NOTHING without Pippen.

Change my mind :pimp:

[3ball]

Take something like ball movement and off ball play. Fairly universally acknowledged to be a good thing. But in 3ball world things like having a coach who can devise and implement an effective system, and players who can pass, make good reads and quick decisions, and actually catch the ball are ignored. Take one or more of those things out and you aren't likely to have an effective system. Doesn't matter how good a player is off ball if no one can get him the ball or capitalize on ways he compromises the defense with his movement.


1 guy dribbling and then getting an assist skips ball movement and jumps straight to the assist

This only allows the ball-handler to get assists, thereby resulting in low TEAM assists compared to teams that move the ball among 5 guys and don't let 1 guy get most of the assists

[3ball]

:oldlol:

AD was "by far" better when LeBron finished higher in MVP voting and won unanimous FMVP


Everyone knows that AD was the clear-cut MVP in the "real" Finals against Denver

No one thought Miami had a chance so who cares that Lebron-ball won.. When it mattered against Denver, Lebron-ball wasn't sufficient.. Only AD-ball could win




:oldlol:

AD was "by far" better when LeBron finished higher in MVP voting and won unanimous FMVP


Don't be ashamed that lebron needs equal-scoring partners like 11' Wade or 16' Kyrie because everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner for most of their rings

[TheCorporation]

1 guy dribbling and then getting an assist skips ball movement and jumps straight to the assist

This only allows the ball-handler to get assists, thereby resulting in low TEAM assists compared to teams that move the ball among 5 guys and don't let 1 guy get most of the assists

LeBron ball worked fine when Pippen led the Bulls offense in assists 3 playoff runs

Also...

Jordan:
5 seasons w/o Pippen:
5 seasons were below .500

Pippen:
8 seasons w/o Jordan:
7 seasons were above .500

Wow. Shattering news. Who needed who again?

[SouBeachTalents]

Everyone knows that AD was the clear-cut MVP in the "real" Finals against Denver

No one thought Miami had a chance so who cares that Lebron-ball won.. When it mattered against Denver, Lebron-ball wasn't sufficient.. Only AD-ball could win






Don't be ashamed that lebron needs equal-scoring partners like 11' Wade or 16' Kyrie because everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner for most of their rings
The Lakers were bigger betting favorites in the WCF than the Finals

Before each series

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29878951/nba-playoffs-2020-experts-picks-lakers-nuggets-western-conference-finals

Lakers 20, Nuggets 1

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30004224/nba-finals-experts-picks-lakers-heat

Lakers 17, Heat 8

Kinda shatters your entire theory huh :(

[coin24]

No daddy Davis, no playoffs in the west for LeTiny..

No daddy wade or Kyrie, no wins for LeTiny


Career loser, dumb racist and turning real fans away from the game.

[Objectivity]

No daddy Davis, no playoffs in the west for LeTiny..

No daddy wade or Kyrie, no wins for LeTiny


Career loser, dumb racist and turning real fans away from the game.

you forgot his father ray ray

[Smoke117]

1-9. No Pip, no Chip.

[3ball]

Jordan won NOTHING without Pippen.

Change my mind :pimp:


1) Jordan was 24-11 with the 1 seed in 98' before Pippen came back from injury. He was 30-12 from 91-98' without Pippen

2) Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with just 10 ppg from Pippen (who quit when the series was tied 2-2) - so anyone passable in Pippen's place wins easily.. Phil lost in 1990 for the same reason - Pippen quit again when the series was tied

3) Pippen's standard of play wasn't that high... 05' Zydrunas was better offensively than 90' Pippen (PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency), while the 90' Bulls had an inferior team defense (#19).. So Jordan nearly dragged a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to within a migraine of the title.

4) The 94' Bulls improved every roster spot, so they nearly beat the Knicks despite 21 on 40% from Pippen.. And those Knicks nearly beat the Rockets with 18 on 35% from Ewing... So MJ's 30 ppg would've beaten the Knicks and Rockets.

5) In the history of 3-pointer basketball, the only 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (true 2nd options) were Gasol, Rip Hamilton, Klay, Pippen, and Horry... So Jordan would've won more rings if he enjoyed the elite 1st option sidekicks and FMVP sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed.. Only Jordan has a bunch of rings without super-teams or 1b's (true 2nd option).

6) Pippen's standard was a low bar, so bums like JR Smith or Robert Horry could occasionally reach that level, and hundreds of star players had an everyday standard that was superior to Pippen's.. For example, Pippen wasn't a 20/10 guy and never led a team to the conference finals, so his performance is inferior to KJ's standard.. Pippen was also never the #1 option on b2b champs like Worthy, so his level of play was below Worthy's.. There's literally hundreds of examples of this - Pippen's peak of 22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 400 peak, maybe

[Lebron23]

No daddy Davis, no playoffs in the west for LeTiny..

No daddy wade or Kyrie, no wins for LeTiny


Career loser, dumb racist and turning real fans away from the game.

You have a short d1ck

[Lebron23]

1) Jordan was 24-11 with the 1 seed in 98' before Pippen came back from injury. He was 30-12 from 91-98' without Pippen

2) Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with just 10 ppg from Pippen (who quit when the series was tied 2-2) - so anyone passable in Pippen's place wins easily.. Phil lost in 1990 for the same reason - Pippen quit again when the series was tied

3) Pippen's standard of play wasn't that high... 05' Zydrunas was better offensively than 90' Pippen (PER, WS/48, scoring, efficiency), while the 90' Bulls had an inferior team defense (#19).. So Jordan nearly dragged a worse cast than the 05' Cavs to within a migraine of the title.

4) The 94' Bulls improved every roster spot, so they nearly beat the Knicks despite 21 on 40% from Pippen.. And those Knicks nearly beat the Rockets with 18 on 35% from Ewing... So MJ's 30 ppg would've beaten the Knicks and Rockets.

5) In the history of 3-pointer basketball, the only 2nd options on champions that never achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP (true 2nd options) were Gasol, Rip Hamilton, Klay, Pippen, and Horry... So Jordan would've won more rings if he enjoyed the elite 1st option sidekicks and FMVP sidekicks that everyone else enjoyed.. Only Jordan has a bunch of rings without super-teams or 1b's (true 2nd option).

6) Everyone played better than Pippen ever did - Pippen's peak play was a low bar, so bums like JR Smith or Robert Horry could occasionally reach that level, and hundreds of star players had an everyday standard of play that was superior to Pippen's.. For example, Pippen wasn't a 20/10 guy and never led a team to the conference finals, so his performance is inferior to KJ's standard.. Pippen was also never the #1 option on b2b champs like Worthy, so his level of play was below Worthy's.. There's literally hundreds of examples of this - Pippen's peak of 22/5 with 2nd Round loss is a top 400 peak, maybe

Jordan missed the playoffs in 2002 and 2003. He had no excuses in 2003.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


The Cavs had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs in Year 3 as a developed, high seed with numerous decorated players.

Otoh, Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing

So Lebron's first playoff teams were experienced and loaded compared to Jordan's rookie 8 seeds .. Furthermore, 88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with a rookie team of nothing, while 06' Lebron had a veteran team with numerous decorated players.

Ultimately, teams with 1 star and role players were expected to make deep runs and routinely won the 00's East, while such casts had zero chance in the 80's East where a super-team was required.

[8Ball]

1-9

Nobody has had a counter to this argument for 18 years now.

E=MC2 of the NBA. A formula so elegant it can never be argued with. Can never be changed for all of time. And explains the universe in just a few characters.

Divine. Let us repeat this:

1-9. The answer to this thread, has yet to be corrected.

3ball?

[3ball]

Nobody has had a counter to this argument for 18 years now.

E=MC2 of the NBA. A formula so elegant it can never be argued with. Can never be changed for all of time. And explains the universe in just a few characters.

Divine. Let us repeat this:

1-9. The answer to this thread, has yet to be corrected.

3ball?


Lebron got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs as a developed, high seed with decorated teammates, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing and the 8 seed,

So Lebron had developed, high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had rookie 8 seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

No comparison

Carry on

[AlternativeAcc.]

.
Thread Cliffs


The Cavs had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs in Year 3 as a developed, high seed with numerous decorated players.

Otoh, Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing

So Lebron's first playoff teams were experienced and loaded compared to Jordan's rookie 8 seeds .. Furthermore, 88' Jordan made the 2nd Round with a rookie team of nothing, while 06' Lebron had a veteran team with numerous decorated players.

Ultimately, teams with 1 star and role players were expected to make deep runs and routinely won the 00's East, while such casts had zero chance in the 80's East where a super-team was required.

BIG Z was a washed up 10/5 player by the time lebron was 21


Meanwhile at 21, Jordan had Wooldridge who averaged 24ppg on 60% TS

Jordan had more help as a rookie than lebron ever did in Cleveland

[3ball]

BIG Z was a washed up 10/5 player by the time lebron was 21


Meanwhile at 21, Jordan had Wooldridge who averaged 24ppg on 60% TS

Jordan had more help as a rookie than lebron ever did in Cleveland


Jordan/Woolridge were forced into the playoffs as rookie 8 seeds, while Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery and entered the playoffs as developed, high seeds with numerous additions.

It's isn't remotely close

It would only be close if MJ/Woolridge got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery, and then entered the playoffs as veteran high seeds, after adding the future COY and a 22/5/5 all-defender

Carry on tho

[8Ball]

Lebron got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs as a developed, high seed with decorated teammates, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing and the 8 seed,

So Lebron had developed, high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had rookie 8 seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

No comparison

Carry on

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen: 1-9
Jordan's regular season record without Pippen: Below .500

Is there no one else?

[8Ball]

BIG Z was a washed up 10/5 player by the time lebron was 21


Meanwhile at 21, Jordan had Wooldridge who averaged 24ppg on 60% TS

Jordan had more help as a rookie than lebron ever did in Cleveland


Jordan had someone that averaged 23 ppg his rookie year on 55%FG ?!?!?!

Better than Pippen numbers!

Big Z = 15 ppg
Wooldridge = 23 ppg

[8Ball]

Jordan 28ppg as a 21 year old
Wooldridge had 23 ppg as a 24 year old

Record: 38-44 :(

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan/Woolridge were forced into the playoffs as rookie 8 seeds, while Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery and entered the playoffs as developed, high seeds with numerous additions.

It's isn't remotely close

It would only be close if MJ/Woolridge got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery, and then entered the playoffs as veteran high seeds, after adding the future COY and a 22/5/5 all-defender

Carry on tho

Oakley > Big z

But Jordan couldn't muster a higher seed because he had zero impact throughout his entire career

This was further proven when the bulls won nearly 60 games without him in 94

Literally his entire career shows he has no impact and the bulls only started winning anything when pippen developed

That's what the data shows, it doesn't lie like you

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan 28ppg as a 21 year old
Wooldridge had 23 ppg as a 24 year old

Record: 38-44 :(

Yikes... way more help than lebron ever had and only mustered 38 wins

And they cry because they faced the Celtics and pistons in the playoffs...

I guess they don't understand you have to WIN more games to avoid those teams in the 1st round

Jordan couldn't win without pippen tho

[8Ball]

Oakley > Big z

But Jordan couldn't muster a higher seed because he had zero impact throughout his entire career

This was further proven when the bulls won nearly 60 games without him in 94

Literally his entire career shows he has no impact and the bulls only started winning anything when pippen developed

That's what the data shows, it doesn't lie like you

As a Jordan fan this post hurts me deeply.

Why couldn't Jordan win more regular season games with 23ppg teammates?

[Axe]

Just another lousy 3ball thread where op finds himself getting smothered as usual. :sleeping

[AlternativeAcc.]

As a Jordan fan this post hurts me deeply.

Why couldn't Jordan win more regular season games with 23ppg teammates?

He also had 14 time all star George Gervin on his team in year 2 (they made the playoffs without Jordan.. shocker)

They got trounced in the playoffs vs the Celtics after Jordan returned

Bulls owned the Celtics that year without Jordan... woolridge averaged over 30ppg against them

Jordan ruined everything

[SATAN]

I legitimately hope OP gets hit by a car tomorrow

[8Ball]

Jordan/Woolridge were forced into the playoffs as rookie 8 seeds, while Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery and entered the playoffs as developed, high seeds with numerous additions.

It's isn't remotely close

It would only be close if MJ/Woolridge got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery, and then entered the playoffs as veteran high seeds, after adding the future COY and a 22/5/5 all-defender

Carry on tho


Anthony Davis 2021 = 21ppg / 8 rebounds.
Woolridge 1985 = 23 ppg / 6 rebounds.

Lakers will finish above .500 with AD missing 9 weeks and LeBron missing 6 weeks.

Why couldn't the Bulls finish the season at or above .500?

[Replay32]

I got see Larry Hughes play live at a "And 1" pickup game in the summer at Venice Beach one year. It's was the early 2000's, can't remember the exact year. Anyway I'm just going to be nice and say he wasn't good out there against majority of non NBA Players.

[And1AllDay]

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen: 1-9
Jordan's regular season record without Pippen: Below .500

Is there no one else?

is there no one else????

[RRR3]

I legitimately hope OP gets hit by a car tomorrow
Bruh wtf. He’s annoying af but he’s not a bad person or anything. Jesus. Save these posts for the Nazis.

[Lebron23]

I got see Larry Hughes play live at a "And 1" pickup game in the summer at Venice Beach one year. It's was the early 2000's, can't remember the exact year. Anyway I'm just going to be nice and say he wasn't good out there against majority of non NBA Players.

Hughes is a one hit wonder. one of the reasons why the sixers traded him to the warriors in 2001

[3ball]

Hughes is a one hit wonder. one of the reasons why the sixers traded him to the warriors in 2001


Hughes was only the 3rd best player on the 06' Cavs though - Zydrunas was the guy with 22 PER and the dominant pick-n-pop with Lebron

So those Cavs were a developed, veteran team - they had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs as a favored, high seed in Year 3

Otoh, Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no help - no all-star center... no 22/5/5 all-defender... no COY... no top defense or rebounding

[GoalooUS01]

Hope he will recover very soon

[8Ball]

Hughes was only the 3rd best player on the 06' Cavs though - Zydrunas was the guy with 22 PER and the dominant pick-n-pop with Lebron

So those Cavs were a developed, veteran team - they had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs as a favored, high seed in Year 3

Otoh, Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no help - no all-star center... no 22/5/5 all-defender... no COY... no top defense or rebounding

Anthony Davis 2021 = 21ppg / 8 rebounds.
Woolridge 1985 = 23 ppg / 6 rebounds.

Lakers will finish above .500 with AD missing 9 weeks and LeBron missing 6 weeks.

Why couldn't the Bulls finish the season at or above .500?

[Hey Yo]

Lebron got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs as a developed, high seed with decorated teammates, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with nothing and the 8 seed,

So Lebron had developed, high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, while Jordan had rookie 8 seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

No comparison

Carry on
Detroit wasn't a super team........ carry on.

[FireDavidKahn]

Not a bum:roll:

Kevin Love was -45 in 26 minutes tonight.

That’s the lowest +/- by a Cavs player since Antawn Jamison in 2012.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0qzFZKUYAAPKrq?format=jpg&name=medium

He is only the 8th player since 1997 with a -45 +/- or worse in 26 minutes or less.

Full list: https://statm.us/e/j8oyxUZrC

[Ainosterhaspie]

Hughes was only the 3rd best player on the 06' Cavs though - Zydrunas was the guy with 22 PER and the dominant pick-n-pop with Lebron

So those Cavs were a developed, veteran team - they had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs as a favored, high seed in Year 3

Otoh, Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no help - no all-star center... no 22/5/5 all-defender... no COY... no top defense or rebounding
If Hughes was the third best player on the '06 Cavs, you just disproved your claims. He misses more than half the season with injury. He was at 15ppg in the regular season on an atrocious .504 TS%. He was far worse in the playoffs dropping to 11ppg on a TS% under .400. If that's your third best player, your team has no depth and is rightly classed as bums.

Hughes never again touched his 05 quality of play after the injuries in 06. It means nothing with regard to the quality of Cavs rosters.

[Axe]

Hughes was only the 3rd best player on the 06' Cavs though - Zydrunas was the guy with 22 PER and the dominant pick-n-pop with Lebron

So those Cavs were a developed, veteran team - they had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs as a favored, high seed in Year 3

Otoh, Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no help - no all-star center... no 22/5/5 all-defender... no COY... no top defense or rebounding
Dumb. Hughes was never an all-star but at least he got into the finals with kong. Baldan, otoh, couldn't even make it into the postseason even for once with him and the wizards.

[Johnny32]

Hughes was only the 3rd best player on the 06' Cavs though - Zydrunas was the guy with 22 PER and the dominant pick-n-pop with Lebron

So those Cavs were a developed, veteran team - they had 2 years of seasoning with lottery-Lebron before entering the playoffs as a favored, high seed in Year 3

Otoh, Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with no help - no all-star center... no 22/5/5 all-defender... no COY... no top defense or rebounding

since you're comparing lebron's help in 06 to jordan's year 1...let's check the playoff stats.

2006 1st rd vs was...legoat leads bums to 2nd rd. cavs second and third best players in the series below.

hughes - 12, 4, 3 on 31%
murray - 11, 3, 1 on 44%

1985 1st rd vs mil...jordone loses in the 1st rd. bulls second and third best players in the series below.

woolridge - 21, 3, 2 on 50%
dailey - 15, 3, 3 on 41%

[Johnny32]

i know everyone is wondering how lebron's all star center performed in the 1st rd.

lil z - 9.8 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 0.7 apg, 42.9 fg%

[Ainosterhaspie]

since you're comparing lebron's help in 06 to jordan's year 1...let's check the playoff stats.

2006 1st rd vs was...legoat leads bums to 2nd rd. cavs second and third best players in the series below.

hughes - 12, 4, 3 on 31%
murray - 11, 3, 1 on 44%

1985 1st rd vs mil...jordone losses in the 1st rd. bulls second and third best players in the series below.

woolridge - 21, 3, 2 on 50%
dailey - 15, 3, 3 on 41%

No. You're doing it wrong. You have to use regular season stats from different years. Who uses stats from the same year being discussed, especially playoff stats?

[Johnny32]

and just incase you're wondering how the stars performed in their first playoff series.

legoat - 35.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 5.7 apg, 51.0 fg%
jordone - 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 43.6 fg%

better than jordone as pups, peaks, and old mfers.

[And1AllDay]

and just incase you're wondering how the stars performed in their first playoff series.

legoat - 35.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 5.7 apg, 51.0 fg%
jordone - 29.3 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 8.5 apg, 43.6 fg%

better than jordone as pups, peaks, and old mfers.

legoat > anyone else