Series are often decided over a few possessions - Lebron loses those possessions

[3ball]

.
Choking stretches that decided the series



2009 ECF - laid a massive egg in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, and lost 2 other 4th quarter leads in the series

2010 ECSF - didn't score in the last 6 minutes of the series-turning Game 4, while Rondo completely took over and beat Lebron by himself

2011 Finals - nuff said

2017 Finals - Cavs led 113-109 with 1:30 left in Game 3, and that's when KD scored the last 7 points to win the game, while Lebron bricked and deferred down the stretch.

2018 Finals - deferred on the last possession despite having a massive mismatch himself against Curry - then he was scoreless in OT (melted down after adversity with JR)



BAILOUTS - teammates saved the team from losing series after a Lebron choke



2013 Finals - missed the critical shot, so Ray Allen hit it

2016 Finals - scoreless down the stretch, so Kyrie saved him


Btw, I didn't include the 2015 Finals where Lebron had zero points in the 4th quarter of critical Game 4 to lose a winnable game (only down 6 heading into 4th).. I didn't include it because Lebron was a big underdog without star teammates.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[RRR3]

Blaming LeBron for 2009 is proof you think he’s the GOAT. No other player ever is held to those standards.

[ShawkFactory]

I actually don’t whole-disagree on this one.

Other than 2018. Even if they win game 1 there is no way they win the series.

There’s also been a few series he’s lost narrowly that have nothing to do with him either though.

[RRR3]

I actually don’t whole-disagree on this one.

Other than 2018. Even if they win game 1 there is no way they win the series.
There was no way they were winning in 2017 either. And he had the best scoring series of his life in 09, critiquing that is just nitpicking.

[ShawkFactory]

There was no way they were winning in 2017 either. And he had the best scoring series of his life in 09, critiquing that is just nitpicking.

Yea I agree with 2017 as well.

2009 I can kiiinda see the haters’ point though. He had to do literally everything and dominated 99% of the time but screwed up a few big possessions. Hard to fault him overall for the series obviously but I can at least see the point.

[mehyaM24]

you don't ignore the other 47 minutes of a game. that said, i have no idea what happened with lebron in 2010. he was wrecking boston until the elbow BS. he had an mri and nothing came up. almost like he decided midway through that series, he was going to play with d-wade lol.

[RRR3]

you don't ignore the other 47 minutes of a game. that said, i have no idea what happened with lebron in 2010. he was wrecking boston until the elbow BS. he had an mri and nothing came up. almost like he decided midway through that series, he was going to play with d-wade lol.
Idk it’s unlikely he’d just stop trying if he had a chance to win a ring. LeBron cares a lot about winning rings as we all know by now.

[RRR3]

Yea I agree with 2017 as well.

2009 I can kiiinda see the haters’ point though. He had to do literally everything and dominated 99% of the time but screwed up a few big possessions. Hard to fault him overall for the series obviously but I can at least see the point.
He also literally won them a game at the buzzer and sent another game to OT. And averaged 38.5 PPG on 59.1% TS. Anyone complaining about that clearly thinks LeBron is the GOAT.

[mehyaM24]

op's criteria is inconsistent too. he jumps from "few possessions" (like the ray allen 3) to entire 4th quarters and overtimes lol. cherrypicking like a mfer.


Idk it’s unlikely he’d just stop trying if he had a chance to win a ring. LeBron cares a lot about winning rings as we all know by now.

it is unlikely, but also not the only time he was "questionable". happened a year later when he sabotaged wade in the finals.

[ShawkFactory]

He also literally won them a game at the buzzer and sent another game to OT. And averaged 38.5 PPG on 59.1% TS. Anyone complaining about that clearly thinks LeBron is the GOAT.
He did literally everything that series. Like I said, can’t fault him overall.

I’m just saying I can see the other side on that one.

[3ball]

Blaming LeBron for 2009 is proof you think he’s the GOAT. No other player ever is held to those standards.


Lebron lost the 09' Finals for 3 reasons:


1) Lebron choked in the 4th quarters, including the Game 4 OT and 2 more lost leads in the 4th, along with 30% in jumpers in the 4th

2) Lebron can't win with high scoring because high scoring from lebron = over-dribbling - so he literally never wins when he scores 35+ outside the 1st Round.


3). He isn't capable of carry-jobs against good teams - he needs good scoring/efficiency from a sidekick to beat top teams because he's poor at the contested jumpshooting required of tough carry-jobs - his clutch jumpshooting is probably the worst ever for an all-time great


Ultimately, Jordan never lost when expected to win, while Lebron lost with tons of top seeds and favorite

[RRR3]

He did literally everything that series. Like I said, can’t fault him overall.

I’m just saying I can see the other side on that one.
He can’t hold LeBron to those standards and then say he’s “top 11-12”. That makes zero sense.

[tpols]

Blaming LeBron for 2009 is proof you think he’s the GOAT. No other player ever is held to those standards.

Losing to Dwight with a 66 win team is GOAT standard?

That's a good one mate.

[3ball]

There was no way they were winning in 2017 either




Why can't Lebron/Kyrie beat Durant/Curry?

We already know that Kyrie can destroy Curry, so it's on lebron to outplay durant - but he CAN'T

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron lost the 09' Finals for 3 reasons:


1) Lebron choked in the 4th quarters, including the Game 4 OT and 2 more lost leads in the 4th, along with 30% in jumpers in the 4th

2) Lebron can't win with high scoring because high scoring from lebron = over-dribbling - so he literally never wins when he scores 35+ outside the 1st Round.


3). He isn't capable of carry-jobs against good teams - he needs good scoring/efficiency from a sidekick to beat top teams because he's poor at the contested jumpshooting required of tough carry-jobs - his clutch jumpshooting is probably the worst ever for an all-time great


Ultimately, Jordan never lost when expected to win, while Lebron lost with tons of top seeds and favorite
See..I agreed with you initially and then you fall off a cliff. You’re not recognizing styles of basketball.

Lebron playing his optimal game isn’t scoring 35 a game. Just not what he does best. 28/10/9 is his game.

It’s not that he “can’t win” while scoring 35+. It’s that when he scores 35+ it’s because he has too and his team is overmatched.

When it’s an even playing field he just doesn’t do that.

[RRR3]

Why can't Lebron/Kyrie beat Durant/Curry?

We already know that Kyrie can destroy Curry, so it's on lebron to outplay durant - but he CAN'T
Kyrie did not outplay Curry in 2017.

[RRR3]

See..I agreed with you initially and then you fall off a cliff. You’re not recognizing styles of basketball.

Lebron playing his optimal game isn’t scoring 35 a game. Just not what he does best. 28/10/9 is his game.

It’s not that he “can’t win” while scoring 35+. It’s that when he scores 35+ it’s because he has too and his team is overmatched.

When it’s an even playing field he just doesn’t do that.
Also just a convenient cut off cuz LeBron has won a series past the first round averaged 33 and 34+ Ppg iirc

[3ball]

See..I agreed with you initially and then you fall off a cliff. You’re not recognizing styles of basketball.

Lebron playing his optimal game isn’t scoring 35 a game. Just not what he does best. 28/10/9 is his game.

It’s not that he “can’t win” while scoring 35+. It’s that when he scores 35+ it’s because he has too and his team is overmatched.

When it’s an even playing field he just doesn’t do that.


Jordan won by scoring 35-45 ppg in many series

But when lebron is asked to score that much, he can't win

Why?

It's because high scoring from lebron equals over-dribbling, while Jordan"s elite jumpshooting skill and off-ball production allowed the best strategy (ball movement) and therefore the highest team ceilings

Ultimately, Lebron's teams are forced to play an inferior brand of ball due to lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance.. That's why he never had juggernauts or #1 offenses despite the best help arguably ever

[8Ball]

1-9

There is no counter to this.

For all of time.

Don't forget 0-5 as well.

[8Ball]

Jordan lost in a the 1st round with a 23ppg teammate. LeBron would never.

[Shooter]

Where's MJ vs Orlando pic?

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan won by scoring 35-45 ppg in many series

But when lebron is asked to score that much, he can't win

Why?

It's because high scoring from lebron equals over-dribbling, while Jordan"s elite jumpshooting skill and off-ball production allowed the best strategy (ball movement) and therefore the highest team ceilings

Ultimately, Lebron's teams are forced to play an inferior brand of ball due to lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance.. That's why he never had juggernauts or #1 offenses despite the best help arguably ever

Again, you’re ignoring styles. Jordan, being the guy who jump shooting scorer is cool going for 35 a game to win a series. And the team is built accordingly.

He never played with guys who also played amazingly off ball. The same way lebron doesn’t really work with on ball guys

[Hey Yo]

you don't ignore the other 47 minutes of a game. that said, i have no idea what happened with lebron in 2010. he was wrecking boston until the elbow BS. he had an mri and nothing came up. almost like he decided midway through that series, he was going to play with d-wade lol.
Considering he put up 27-19-10 in the must win game 6.... it's hard to argue that he had already decided to mail it in.

[mehyaM24]

Considering he put up 27-19-10 in the must win game 6.... it's hard to argue that he had already decided to mail it in.

what about the 2 games before that? where lebron averaged 19 and shot 31%

[SouBeachTalents]

Through the first 8 games of the 2010 playoffs LeBron was averaging 32/9/7/2/2 on 56% with 3 TO's, just stupidly good

Those last 3 games against Boston, it cratered to 21/11/8 on 34% with 6 TO's, a colossal drop off from where he had been playing virtually the entire year up till that point

[Smoke117]

1-9

[Hey Yo]

what about the 2 games before that? where lebron averaged 19 and shot 31%
What about it??

Just saying that his game 6 performance doesnt add up to him already mailing it in 2gms prior

[SATAN]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

[mehyaM24]

What about it??

Just saying that his game 6 performance doesnt add up to him already mailing it in 2gms prior

his passive play the games prior do. cleveland was tied 2-2 at home and lebron only had 15 points lol

knowing how he played that entire playoffs, it was random. maybe not in hindsight because lebron did the same thing a year later. during the finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

What about it??

Just saying that his game 6 performance doesnt add up to him already mailing it in 2gms prior
He and the Cavs flat out gave up in the final 90 seconds


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5qIApQK0c

Sure, they obv aren't going to win at that point barring a miraculous sequence of events, but the complete lack of urgency with their season on the line is pretty jarring. He throws an absolutely mindless pass for a turnover, makes no effort on defense, to rebound or to foul, then jogs back on their last possession of the season, stands at midcourt and doesn't even attempt to touch the ball

[mehyaM24]

He and the Cavs flat out gave up in the final 90 seconds


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v5qIApQK0c

Sure, they obv aren't going to win at that point barring a miraculous sequence of events, but the complete lack of urgency with their season on the line is pretty jarring. He throws an absolutely mindless pass for a turnover, makes no effort on defense, to rebound or to foul, then jogs back on their last possession of the season, stands at midcourt and doesn't even attempt to touch the ball

ya dont get why people are confused. we saw the series. during those last few games, lebron & cleveland's play was "off". not talking about missing shots either. numbers wont contextualize lebron's strange, but clear passive play. the only time i ever saw dude like that was in the 11 finals. he got over it though, and has had a epic run since.

[Shooter]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

Bingo

[kawhileonard2]

Blaming LeBron for 2009 is proof you think he’s the GOAT. No other player ever is held to those standards.

Not when you lose to Dwight Howard with HCA.

[Smoke117]

1-9

[kawhileonard2]

1-9

Lebron's record vs Warriors last two years or Lebron's 0-8 his first two years since he missed the playoffs. Also forgot the bronze medals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron's record vs Warriors last two years or Lebron's 0-8 his first two years since he missed the playoffs. Also forgot the bronze medals.
I think that's what Kawhi shot in the 2nd half of Game 7

Edit, my bad, it was 1/11

[kawhileonard2]

I think that's what Kawhi shot in the 2nd half of Game 7

Edit, my bad, it was 1/11

Beat the shi* out of Lebron though. 4-1 and Finals mvp with an old team.

Kawhi never won bronze medal for America.

[3ball]

He never played with guys who also played amazingly off ball. The same way lebron doesn’t really work with on ball guys





The triangle was an off-ball offense without a PG role - everyone was playing off-ball, including Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Grant or BJ Armstrong

[3ball]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

Bingo


That's the standard for Lebron though - he had 4 turnovers in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the 09' ECF

He's butterfingers in the clutch and goat at turnovers, while also being jittery at the FT line and horrific clutch jumpshooting

That's why he needs super-teams to win, or to be the "pippen" to AD.. Otoh, the goat went 6/6 without super-teams or 1b's

[ShawkFactory]

The triangle was an off-ball offense without a PG role - everyone was playing off-ball, including Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc, Pippen, Grant or BJ Armstrong

Kukoc is the only true excellent off ball player (higher volume scorer) that MJ played with and his scoring numbers in 95 and 99 were much greater than what they were in the 3 years in between when MJ was there.

Someone like Booker, or Bradley Beal lets say. Is he going to be scoring his 30 a game playing with MJ? Of course not. MJ's style works best with guys who didn't thrive taking high numbers of shots. If he played with someone that required that, they're numbers would have cratered just like an on-ball guy's did playing with Lebron.

Jordan would be the best scorer on the team, thus the inferior player (even if he could still score 25+ a night on a worse team) would see their shot numbers reduced.

The other side is true of Lebron. Inferior players, who may be able to average 5-6 assists as a primary playmaker on a worse team, will see their time with the ball reduced.

That's why it made sense for the Bulls to never go after high volume scorers to play with Jordan.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

That's the standard for Lebron though - he had 4 turnovers in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the 09' ECF

He's butterfingers in the clutch and goat at turnovers, while also being jittery at the FT line and horrific clutch jumpshooting

That's why he needs super-teams to win, or to be the "pippen" to AD.. Otoh, the goat went 6/6 without super-teams or 1b's


I don't even need to write much now. Well said. It happened to Mike ONCE. It happens to LeSuitcase in EVERY finals pretty much. Keep your eyes opened, it will happen again during the playoffs this year.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Kukoc is the only true excellent off ball player (higher volume scorer) that MJ played with and his scoring numbers in 95 and 99 were much greater than what they were in the 3 years in between when MJ was there.

Someone like Booker, or Bradley Beal lets say. Is he going to be scoring his 30 a game playing with MJ? Of course not. MJ's style works best with guys who didn't thrive taking high numbers of shots. If he played with someone that required that, they're numbers would have cratered just like an on-ball guy's did playing with Lebron.

Jordan would be the best scorer on the team, thus the inferior player (even if he could still score 25+ a night on a worse team) would see their shot numbers reduced.

The other side is true of Lebron. Inferior players, who may be able to average 5-6 assists as a primary playmaker on a worse team, will see their time with the ball reduced.

That's why it made sense for the Bulls to never go after high volume scorers to play with Jordan.

:applause::cheers: Well said!

[Shooter]

OP really doesn't know basketball. He truly forgot this happened to MJ in the 1995 playoffs where he turned the ball over and lost the series.

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

[dankok8]

OP really doesn't know basketball. He truly forgot this happened to MJ in the 1995 playoffs where he turned the ball over and lost the series.

https://images.solecollector.com/complex/image/upload/m7tdrq1uqt9yxrjdnjne.jpg

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/video/teams/magic/2015/01/28/PMM0895PNICKSTEALvJordanmp4-3503590.576x324.jpg

That happened in Game 1...

[ArbitraryWater]

You know you can do this for anyone?

And LeBron killed the 2018 finals game 1 and drew the game clinching charge before the zebra's overturned it

[RRR3]

You know you can do this for anyone?

And LeBron killed the 2018 finals game 1 and drew the game clinching charge before the zebra's overturned it
I’ll legit never get over that. They weren’t even allowed to do that legally iirc Cuz they reviewed something else