Basketball Reference's new layout update has exposed Kevin Garnett

[Im Still Ballin]

Saw this comment on Reddit about his playoff performances with Minnesota. He only shot over 50% once in the playoffs. Duncan had 10 playoff series above 50% FG in that same time period I believe. Dirk had 2, but he shot a lot of 3pt shots -- and his first playoffs series was in 2001. Chris Webber had 4. Malone had 3.

My stance is that KG's offense was never good enough to be an undisputed 1st option on a championship team. Wasn't a foundational offensive player, unlike Dirk and Duncan.



Holy shit KG. My man had it ROUGH in Minnesota and I knew that but not to the degree that I’m finding out. He only shot over 50 percent ONCE in the 10 playoff series he played with the Wolves. He shot 38 percent (!!!) in 2000 against Portland despite averaging 19/12/9. He also shot 42 percent in the 08 Finals where he was “robbed” of a Finals MVP (idk. Basketball is not all offense and I KNOW KG anchored that defense to mythical proportions butttttt Pau Gasol slapped up 15/10 on 53 percent shooting? I’m gonna assume Kobe shot them out of it (40 percent shooting)/KG denied tf out of Gasol all game.


https://i.ibb.co/xFyF66Z/wwww.png

[SouBeachTalents]

From '97-'04, the years referenced in the OP, KG averaged

21/11/5 49% in the regular season

22/13/5 46% in the playoffs

I don't disagree those scoring numbers are weak compared to a typical championship first option, but he clearly wasn't exposed. His efficiency dipped a little bit in the playoffs, but the averages are virtually identical. And outside of '04 it's a laughably miniscule sample size, he played an average of 4 playoff games a year from '97-'03

Just for reference Duncan averaged 23, 25, 24 & 22 in his 4 prime title runs. In fairness he was a lot more efficient, but the scoring production is very similar

[ImKobe]

He was a jump shooter, what do you expect? Did you even watch him play?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's not anything close to a #1 scoring option when compared to guys like kawhi Jordan shaq

I would view KG as just a skinny and bald version of 2016 Draymond Green, take that as an insult or compliment. You'll never win with him as the clear cut scorer but he does all the other things great like Draymond. Fits well in this era because he can switch good defensively.

[Im Still Ballin]

He was a jump shooter, what do you expect? Did you even watch him play?

So were Chris Webber and Dirk Nowitzki, yet they had more 50%+ FG playoff series.

Even old man Malone took a lot of jump shots -- still had more 50%+ FG playoff series.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's not anything close to a #1 scoring option when compared to guys like kawhi Jordan shaq

I would view KG as just a skinny and bald version of 2016 Draymond Green, take that as an insult or compliment. You'll never win with him as the clear cut scorer but he does all the other things great like Draymond. Fits well in this era because he can switch good defensively.

I sort of see what you're saying with the Draymond comparison. KG is like a supercharged big man Scottie Pippen type.

[Stanley Kobrick]

when did basketballreference start charging users for premium stats?

[ArbitraryWater]

I always said he was the ultimate luxury sidekick, but not really 1st option type cloth.

[ImKobe]

So were Chris Webber and Dirk Nowitzki, yet they had more 50%+ FG playoff series.

Even old man Malone took a lot of jump shots -- still had more 50%+ FG playoff series.

He didn't play with half the talent in his prime years. Put him in Dirk's place in Don Nelson's offense. Yes, he wasn't as good as Duncan.

[kawhileonard2]

He was able to dominate Lebron twice in series as the #1 option without HCA.

[warriorfan]

Saw this comment on Reddit about his playoff performances with Minnesota. He only shot over 50% once in the playoffs. Duncan had 10 playoff series above 50% FG in that same time period I believe. Dirk had 2, but he shot a lot of 3pt shots -- and his first playoffs series was in 2001. Chris Webber had 4. Malone had 3.

My stance is that KG's offense was never good enough to be an undisputed 1st option on a championship team. Wasn't a foundational offensive player, unlike Dirk and Duncan.



https://i.ibb.co/xFyF66Z/wwww.png

A lot of those criticisms are fair and nothing new. The one knock that KG has always had on him was he could never really be the alpha first option scorer on a championship team. The thing is he makes up for it in so many other areas that it’s not as big of a deal as it seems. He’s still one of the greatest of all time. If he got partnered up with Tony Parker and Ginobli early in his career he would have had a stretch with at least a couple of rings.

[HoopsNY]

OP's assessment isn't far off. KG's problem was that come time for the 4th quarter where he needed to show up for games, he would often default to Terrell Brandon or Troy Hudson. He was not that alpha scorer and wasn't dependable when you really needed him to be.

It's why Duncan will always be considered the better player, despite KG having less help.

[Kblaze8855]

Lot of dancing around the fact that he already led a title team in scoring in the playoffs. Talking “undisputed” and “clear cut” as if it means anything at all. Hell as if leading a team in scoring really means anything. Like anyone has ever said Maurice Lucas led the Blazers to the title. Nobody think James Worthy led a title team even if he was leading scorer in the playoffs on 2(at least). It always has been and always will be best player which is why Bill Walton and Magic are largely credited.

Basketball is not ppg alone and even if it were...he’s already led a title team in playoff scoring. Which is why the “undisputed” disclaimers are added.

None of that shit matters at all. Your team having the most points in the in is all that matters and it doesn’t matter how you contribute to that goal. You contribute the most be it scoring, keeping the other team from scoring, playmaking....hell play calling. Leadership. Whatever.

The superficial shit focused on to fit in the caption of a players picture on a Facebook post recap is not basketball. That “32pts....5 3 pointers” shit.

Basketball is a lot more. And every speck of it is required to win. Who ends up scoring the most isnt usually enough information to tell who actually led a team to a single win much less a championship.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lot of dancing around the fact that he already led a title team in scoring in the playoffs. Talking “undisputed” and “clear cut” as if it means anything at all. Hell as if leading a team in scoring really means anything. Like anyone has ever said Maurice Lucas led the Blazers to the title. Nobody think James Worthy led a title team even if he was leading scorer in the playoffs on 2(at least). It always has been and always will be best player which is why Bill Walton and Magic are largely credited.

Basketball is not ppg alone and even if it were...he’s already led a title team in playoff scoring. Which is why the “undisputed” disclaimers are added.

None of that shit matters at all. Your team having the most points in the in is all that matters and it doesn’t matter how you contribute to that goal. You contribute the most be it scoring, keeping the other team from scoring, playmaking....hell play calling. Leadership. Whatever.

The superficial shit focused on to fit in the caption of a players picture on a Facebook post recap is not basketball. That “32pts....5 3 pointers” shit.

Basketball is a lot more. And every speck of it is required to win. Who ends up scoring the most isnt usually enough information to tell who actually led a team to a single win much less a championship.


well, it is in 90% of the cases.

elite scoring is the premium aspect of basketball.

its a scoring game.

[MaxPlayer]

I always felt like he wasted his length and athleticism on offense by settling for jumpers, even though he managed to hit them with impressive regularity. He should have been dunking over people and drawing fouls every other possession.

[Kblaze8855]

well, it is in 90% of the cases.

elite scoring is the premium aspect of basketball.

its a scoring game.


Having the most points in the end requires exactly as much scoring as defense. 140 points is an L if they score 141. When you see who won a game the teams leading scorer is often the man. They run the most plays for him....so maybe he has 22-25. And these days the game might be 135-122 and he scored 20 something of 250 points.

Which is why I said most of the time the points aren’t enough in a single game. Too much else went down. Larger the sample size the better of course. One reason playoff numbers are often skewed. Especially a single series. But that’s a whole other topic.

[90sgoat]

KG played almost exactly like Lamarcus Aldridge on offense, but obviously he was much better on defense.

He didn't have a good post game and wasn't a physical player, so he lacked the ability to truly dominate games offensively.

It's sort of why AD is also not a dominant player despite much more skilled offensively than KG. Jumpshooters don't punish defenses like Duncan did.

[HoopsNY]

Lot of dancing around the fact that he already led a title team in scoring in the playoffs. Talking “undisputed” and “clear cut” as if it means anything at all. Hell as if leading a team in scoring really means anything. Like anyone has ever said Maurice Lucas led the Blazers to the title. Nobody think James Worthy led a title team even if he was leading scorer in the playoffs on 2(at least). It always has been and always will be best player which is why Bill Walton and Magic are largely credited.

Basketball is not ppg alone and even if it were...he’s already led a title team in playoff scoring. Which is why the “undisputed” disclaimers are added.

None of that shit matters at all. Your team having the most points in the in is all that matters and it doesn’t matter how you contribute to that goal. You contribute the most be it scoring, keeping the other team from scoring, playmaking....hell play calling. Leadership. Whatever.

The superficial shit focused on to fit in the caption of a players picture on a Facebook post recap is not basketball. That “32pts....5 3 pointers” shit.

Basketball is a lot more. And every speck of it is required to win. Who ends up scoring the most isnt usually enough information to tell who actually led a team to a single win much less a championship.

Sorry but this absolves KG of the responsibilities he had as a leader. You're old enough to remember the late 90s and early 00s. The number one criticism was that he wasn't an alpha scorer who could take over games when needed.

The Timberwolves were good enough to defeat teams, but they needed KG to step up when it mattered the most, and that he just couldn't seem to do on any consistent basis. I mean, look at each year by year 4th quarter performances in the playoffs and it pretty much tells you all that you need to know:

1997 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 0 pts, 0-3 FGA
Game 2: 0 pts, 0-1 FGA
Game 3: 2 pts, 1-3 FGA

1998 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 2: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 3: 7 pts, 3-4 FGA
Game 4: 6 pts, 3-6 FGA
Game 5: 0 pts, 0-3 FGA

1999 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 0 pts, 0-4 FGA
Game 2: 10 pts, 5-8 FGA
Game 3: 8 pts, 3-3 FGA
Game 4: 9 pts, 3-8 FGA

2000 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 2 pts, 1-5 FGA
Game 2: 7 pts, 1-4 FGA
Game 3: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 4: 4 pts, 1-7 FGA

2001 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 5 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 2: 2 pts, 1-3 FGA
Game 3: 2 pts, 0-3 FGA
Game 4: 2 pts, 1-2 FGA

2002 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 7 pts, 3-6 FGA
Game 2: 7 pts, 1-2 FGA
Game 3: 3 pts, 1-5 FGA

2003 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 7 pts, 3-5 FGA
Game 2: 10 pts, 4-5 FGA
Game 3: 8 pts, 3-8 FGA
Game 4: 11 pts, 4-6 FGA
Game 5: 3 pts, 1-3 FGA
Game 6: 4 pts, 2-5 FGA

Does this look like an alpha scorer to you? KG was consistently discredited because he would pass up the ball to his teammates when they needed a basket. You don't want your #1 option doing that. Teammates feed off of their confidence and KG was just not a very good leader in Minnesota.

He was, many times, almost non-existent in the 4th quarter of playoff games.

[HoopsNY]

I always felt like he wasted his length and athleticism on offense by settling for jumpers, even though he managed to hit them with impressive regularity. He should have been dunking over people and drawing fouls every other possession.

KG came into the league barely at around 210 lbs. While he had the athleticism, he was just not physically as dominant as an Amare, Blake, or other PFs down low. Remember KG broke into the league as a SF before he became a PF or C. He didn't have the post up game of Duncan nor the post moves of a Hakeem to be able to dominate that way.

Having said that, there just wasn't any excuse for his lack of leadership down the stretch in big games and when his team needed buckets the most. The fact that guys like Wally Sczcerbiak or Troy Hudson were taking big shots over him was an insult.

I remember yelling at the screen at times in playoff games, "SHOOT THE F****** BALL KG!" But it usually ended up as a pass. If he did take the shot, it was typically because he was fed the ball.

You want your leader to attack the rim, to force shots at times, and if they miss, they miss.

[Reggie43]

Which of those "alpha scorers" would win championships in Garnetts place in minnesota? or even a similar type of success considering the kind of help he had?

He had the impact on both ends of the floor similar to some goat level players. He basically gave you ben wallace defense and rebounding, pippen versatility and playmaking plus first option level offense yet here we are nitpicking about his scoring.

[HoopsNY]

Which of those "alpha scorers" would win championships in Garnetts place in minnesota? or even a similar type of success considering the kind of help he had?

He had the impact on both ends of the floor similar to some goat level players. He basically gave you ben wallace defense and rebounding, pippen versatility and playmaking plus first option level offense yet here we are nitpicking about his scoring.

He didn't give Ben Wallace defense. No way. KG was a better defensive player later on in his career than he was from 1997-03. But he definitely wasn't as good defensively as Big Ben was. Wallace won DPOY 4x. KG won it once. And they played in the league at the same time.

I also don't think that KG was a playmaker. He was an elite passing big man, sure. But playmaker? I don't recall that in his early years with Minnesota.

And I think his "1st level option" status is overrated. The fact is that KG folded in big games down the stretch. See my posts.

[mehyaM24]

kg could have scored more, sure. but i think he's getting a little too much flack here. not like he was a guard who HAD to compensate. kg was a big with ATG impact on defense (historic impact). and for his size dude's playmaking was also elite. kg didn't have much help in minnesota, and you could argue he stayed TOO long. by the time he was in boston, ticket had 1-2 years left in his prime. tops. then he became injury prone.

[90sgoat]

I think people initially viewed KG as the next evolution of a Pippen type player. Just a great allround, athletic player.

He seemed to change to playing more power forward soon enough.

Whatever, KG was waaaay ahead of his time.

He'd be an even bigger superstar today as a center. Would kill it on the fastbreak. Like Giannis, but with much better outside shooting and much better playmaking.

[HoopsNY]

kg could have scored more, sure. but i think he's getting a little too much flack here. not like he was a guard who HAD to compensate. kg was a big with ATG impact on defense (historic impact). and for his size dude's playmaking was also elite. kg didn't have much help in minnesota, and you could argue he stayed TOO long. by the time he was in boston, ticket had 1-2 years left in his prime. tops. then he became injury prone.

KG's lack of help is what made his inability to takeover games and be the go to guy all the more frustrating. In many ways, his lack of help produced consistent first round exits. In some ways, his inability to score in big moments also contributed to that.

[mehyaM24]

KG's lack of help is what made his inability to takeover games and be the go to guy all the more frustrating. In many ways, his lack of help produced consistent first round exits. In some ways, his inability to score in big moments also contributed to that.

think i can get on board with that. though to be fair, i'm not sure anyone replaces kg and wins anything of value. especially with that roster. by 2005, kg's help was just laughable.

[HoopsNY]

think i can get on board with that. though to be fair, i'm not sure anyone replaces kg and wins anything of value. especially with that roster. by 2005, kg's help was just laughable.

This is true. But KG didn't allow his team to even compete at a higher level. That was part of the problem. Some of this was due to his inability to score, but a lot of this was also due to his unwillingness to shoot. He just wouldn't do it sometimes.

I mean, scroll up and look at his FGA in the 4th quarters of games (mostly losses). You'll find a ton of 2, 3, 4, 5 FGA fourth quarters. It almost was as if he was scared to shoot.

[BigShotBob]

Sorry but this absolves KG of the responsibilities he had as a leader. You're old enough to remember the late 90s and early 00s. The number one criticism was that he wasn't an alpha scorer who could take over games when needed.

The Timberwolves were good enough to defeat teams, but they needed KG to step up when it mattered the most, and that he just couldn't seem to do on any consistent basis. I mean, look at each year by year 4th quarter performances in the playoffs and it pretty much tells you all that you need to know:

1997 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 0 pts, 0-3 FGA
Game 2: 0 pts, 0-1 FGA
Game 3: 2 pts, 1-3 FGA

1998 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 2: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 3: 7 pts, 3-4 FGA
Game 4: 6 pts, 3-6 FGA
Game 5: 0 pts, 0-3 FGA

1999 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 0 pts, 0-4 FGA
Game 2: 10 pts, 5-8 FGA
Game 3: 8 pts, 3-3 FGA
Game 4: 9 pts, 3-8 FGA

2000 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 2 pts, 1-5 FGA
Game 2: 7 pts, 1-4 FGA
Game 3: 4 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 4: 4 pts, 1-7 FGA

2001 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 5 pts, 2-4 FGA
Game 2: 2 pts, 1-3 FGA
Game 3: 2 pts, 0-3 FGA
Game 4: 2 pts, 1-2 FGA

2002 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 7 pts, 3-6 FGA
Game 2: 7 pts, 1-2 FGA
Game 3: 3 pts, 1-5 FGA

2003 (4th Quarters)

Game 1: 7 pts, 3-5 FGA
Game 2: 10 pts, 4-5 FGA
Game 3: 8 pts, 3-8 FGA
Game 4: 11 pts, 4-6 FGA
Game 5: 3 pts, 1-3 FGA
Game 6: 4 pts, 2-5 FGA

Does this look like an alpha scorer to you? KG was consistently discredited because he would pass up the ball to his teammates when they needed a basket. You don't want your #1 option doing that. Teammates feed off of their confidence and KG was just not a very good leader in Minnesota.

He was, many times, almost non-existent in the 4th quarter of playoff games.

This. Dirk eviscerated him head to head anyways

[mehyaM24]

This is true. But KG didn't allow his team to even compete at a higher level. That was part of the problem. Some of this was due to his inability to score, but a lot of this was also due to his unwillingness to shoot. He just wouldn't do it sometimes.

I mean, scroll up and look at his FGA in the 4th quarters of games (mostly losses). You'll find a ton of 2, 3, 4, 5 FGA fourth quarters. It almost was as if he was scared to shoot.

you made a good post & backed it up with the numbers. like i said - we both agree he could have took more shots. my thing is, i don't know how much it would have mattered. not seeing how minnesota was ever going to win with that cast. thought the same thing back then too.

[Derka]

It takes literally no statistical analysis to understand that KG never was and never wanted to be his team’s first offensive option, making this the lamest take imaginable.

[ImKobe]

I think people initially viewed KG as the next evolution of a Pippen type player. Just a great allround, athletic player.

He seemed to change to playing more power forward soon enough.

Whatever, KG was waaaay ahead of his time.

He'd be an even bigger superstar today as a center. Would kill it on the fastbreak. Like Giannis, but with much better outside shooting and much better playmaking.

Yup. He could play & defend 1-5 like Giannis but he was an ELITE mid-range scorer. 45% from mid-range/long 2s for his career. 1500 jump shots at 43%FG his MVP season, 46.5%FG on jump shots his first year in Boston as they won 66 games.

He led the 08 Celtics in scoring in the Playoffs like Kblaze said (FGA too, not just ppg), so you can't tell me he wasn't capable of winning a title as a lead dog. He was their best player on both ends. Led them in PER, WS/48, BPM & VORP for the title run.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yup. He could play & defend 1-5 like Giannis but he was an ELITE mid-range scorer. 45% from mid-range/long 2s for his career. 1500 jump shots at 43%FG his MVP season, 46.5%FG on jump shots his first year in Boston as they won 66 games.

He led the 08 Celtics in scoring in the Playoffs like Kblaze said (FGA too, not just ppg), so you can't tell me he wasn't capable of winning a title as a lead dog. He was their best player on both ends. Led them in PER, WS/48, BPM & VORP for the title run.

He wasn't nearly an undisputed lead dog in 2008. That was a 3-way triumvirate situation. He and Paul's usage rates were fairly even, with Ray close behind.

[warriorfan]

KG would be perfect for this collusion era where teams have 2 or 3 superstars. All he would need is a guy like Kyrie and maybe someone else and his teams would be dangerous contenders.

[dankok8]

He wasn't nearly an undisputed lead dog in 2008. That was a 3-way triumvirate situation. He and Paul's usage rates were fairly even, with Ray close behind.

He wasn't the lead dog on offense by any big margin but he was easily the best player on the 2008 Celtics.

With that being said, people who say KG > Duncan (including Ben Taylor) are misguided. The stats you posted show that KG over a 7 year span put up 22 ppg in the playoffs on below league efficiency. Shooting jumpers isn't an excuse either. If you're constantly forced into low % shots then that is a deficiency. Off-ball midrange J's by KG were valuable but he resorted to these in iso situations as well where Duncan bulldozing people under the rim was a way more effectively option. KG wasn't a terrible iso scorer but much worse than Duncan.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9vjiu6iPBw