How much do you value second place?

[Bronbron23]

Great interview by one of the greatest athletes ever. This is how i imagine a civil conversation between mj and bron stans going. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iElAEfPq56Q.

he also goes on to say 3rd is even worse which makes sense but ultimately It doesn't matter if you finish 10th or 2nd they both suck one just sucks a little less.

There are people on here that similar to the interviewer place more value on second place so my question is exactly how much do you value it? Is 10 runner ups worth one chip? 20? 100 maybe? To me i wouldn't trade 1000 runner ups for 1 chip but what value do you guys place on runner ups if you had to quantify it relative to winning.

[bullettooth]

I'm a LeBron fan. 2nd place is just as good as 1st place. LeBron's got 10 rings in my book.

Derp.

[Sulico]

It's a dumb perspective.

If you can't recognize that number two on the Forbes top 100 still have more than 100 billion dollars and practically have the same ammount of success, instead you think that it's the same as if he had one million, analizing is not for you.

[FultzNationRISE]

It’s entirely a function of expectations.

Michael Phelps coming in second at a local event would be a big disappointment. A semi-competitive amateur coming in second at the Olympics would be a huge source of pride.

If you play on a stacked team in an incredibly weak era, and you conveniently avoid competing altogether for a couple years here and there when competition is tough, you better always win. Because youre basically stacking the deck.

If you are carrying inferior casts to overachievement time after time, in an ultra competitive era full of elite dynasties like the Spurs and Warriors, then reaching the final round is certainly much more gratifying than going, for instance, 1-9.

[mehyaM24]

you said "1 chip" but it depends where you finish. if that dude is ass every other year i'm taking the runner up. the player consistently great and you couldn't argue was a fluke.

[Bronbron23]

It's a dumb perspective.

If you can't recognize that number two on the Forbes top 100 still have more than 100 billion dollars and practically have the same ammount of success, instead you think that it's the same as if he had one million, analizing is not for you.

That's a terrible analogy but i getya. you think second is pretty much worth the same as first. Gotcha

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I'm a LeBron fan. 2nd place is just as good as 1st place. LeBron's got 10 rings in my book.

Derp.

HAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. I thought I had heard it all... :lol:lol:oldlol: The Queen fans....:banghead:

[Bronbron23]

you said "1 chip" but it depends where you finish. if that dude is ass every other year i'm taking the runner up. the player consistently great and you couldn't argue was a fluke.

Well lets day he wasn't ass but he just never made it to the finals. Let me ask it a different way. Would you rather have 1 chip and 20 first round exits or 0 chips but 20 runner ups. I'd rather the first scenario but there is no right or wrong answer. There's Just personal preference. I'm just wondering what the consensus is on here on what exactly a runner up is worth.

[Bronbron23]

HAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. I thought I had heard it all... :lol:lol:oldlol: The Queen fans....:banghead:

I think he was being sarcastic dude

[RogueBorg]

Great interview by one of the greatest athletes ever. This is how i imagine a civil conversation between mj and bron stans going. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iElAEfPq56Q.

he also goes on to say 3rd is even worse which makes sense but ultimately It doesn't matter if you finish 10th or 2nd they both suck one just sucks a little less.

There are people on here that similar to the interviewer place more value on second place so my question is exactly how much do you value it? Is 10 runner ups worth one chip? 20? 100 maybe? To me i wouldn't trade 1000 runner ups for 1 chip but what value do you guys place on runner ups if you had to quantify it relative to winning.

https://www.quotemaster.org/images/55/55fb3cdb1a79d05f05b5003954e501dd.jpg

[DABIGSALSISHA]

https://www.quotemaster.org/images/55/55fb3cdb1a79d05f05b5003954e501dd.jpg

hahaahhaahahah

[DABIGSALSISHA]

HEY, LeAnkle FANS,

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU3NzQ1NDczMDUzODkw/michael-jordan-versus-lebron-james.jpg

[mehyaM24]

Well lets day he wasn't ass but he just never made it to the finals. Let me ask it a different way. Would you rather have 1 chip and 20 first round exits or 0 chips but 20 runner ups. I'd rather the first scenario but there is no right or wrong answer. There's Just personal preference. I'm just wondering what the consensus is on here on what exactly a runner up is worth.

if you frame it that way, i'm definitely taking the first scenario. that player did enough to make the playoffs consistently, and reached the pinnacle with a ring.

really just depends on your career arc. there's got to be a threshold for consistency and winning.

[RogueBorg]

The goal is winning the championship. Losing in the Finals, losing in any other round, or not even making the playoffs=you still didn't win the championship.

6/15>4/18

[LeCola]

It depends on the team:

If Curry, Lillard, Derozan or Morant lose against Nets it is success.

If Nets lose while Durant, Irving and Harden are healthy, it is fail.

[theman93]

Second place means you lost.

So in other words, how much do you value losing?

I don’t value losing at all.

[Hey Yo]

https://www.quotemaster.org/images/55/55fb3cdb1a79d05f05b5003954e501dd.jpg
25+ drivers trying to win one race is the same as an NBA team needing to win 16gms to win a title??

dumb logic is dumb......

[Hey Yo]

The goal is winning the championship. Losing in the Finals, losing in any other round, or not even making the playoffs=you still didn't win the championship.

6/15>4/18
Can you win an NBA title if you're not playing in the Finals???

Yeah.... didn't think so. More dumb logic by you

[ArbitraryWater]

OP bringing the cringe

[theman93]

25+ drivers trying to win one race is the same as an NBA team needing to win 16gms to win a title??

dumb logic is dumb......

Nice straw man.

Try again.

[Bronbron23]

OP bringing the cringe

It's a simple question little buddy. Not surprised your dumbass can't answer it though.

[tpols]

So Tiger Woods says only 1st place counts... and this clown interviewer tells him he's too cocky and hell learn. Looks like the only lesson to be taken from this is MJ is by far the GOAT.

[Lebron23]

The goal is winning the championship. Losing in the Finals, losing in any other round, or not even making the playoffs=you still didn't win the championship.

6/15>4/18

Do you even play basketball?? I doubt Jordan is capable of leading the 2007 Cavaliers, and 2018 Cavaliers in the finals.

[999Guy]

There is no second place in the NBA, dummy.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

So Tiger Woods says only 1st place counts... and this clown interviewer tells him he's too cocky and hell learn. Looks like the only lesson to be taken from this is MJ is by far the GOAT.

It's not even a discussion anymore, Inside hoops recognizes that Michael Jeffrey Jordan is the GOAT.

True Mentality of another GOAT (Formula 1) Ayrton Senna, bellow. This is the type of mind set that Lebron never HAD. This is Ali, Jordan, Senna, Pele, and other GOATS of the Sports BIG BOY TALK. LeFraudulentQueen is EXCLUDED from this conversation.


https://youtu.be/FRWXdPSoUT0

[Manny98]

I'd rather finish second facing the toughest competition ever than finish first going to bed at night realizing that the Seattle Supersonics were the toughest team I faced in the finals:applause:

[3ball]

Losing the Finals means you lost to the other conference.

and therefore couldn't win that conference (wouldn't make the Finals from that conference).

So Finals appearances are conference-dependant affairs - only winning them matters

The conference-dependant nature of Finals appearances was demonstrated when Lebron's "decision" formed a super-team in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won, thus guaranteeing Finals runs.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I'd rather finish second facing the toughest competition ever than finish first going to bed at night realizing that the Seattle Supersonics were the toughest team I faced in the finals:applause:

Then NO GOAT mentality for you , millennial mentality .

https://media2.giphy.com/media/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/200.gif

[Jasper]

I'd take 2nd place with the Bucks , then have them third to Nets and 6'ers.

[97 bulls]

Theres no condition in which I'd take 2nd place over a Championship. 2nd place is always gonna mean that you werent good enough. These moral victory arguments are a new phenomenon. That why MVPs always come from the best teams in the league. How valuable can you be if you lost?

[SATAN]

Great interview by one of the greatest athletes ever. This is how i imagine a civil conversation between mj and bron stans going. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iElAEfPq56Q.

he also goes on to say 3rd is even worse which makes sense but ultimately It doesn't matter if you finish 10th or 2nd they both suck one just sucks a little less.

There are people on here that similar to the interviewer place more value on second place so my question is exactly how much do you value it? Is 10 runner ups worth one chip? 20? 100 maybe? To me i wouldn't trade 1000 runner ups for 1 chip but what value do you guys place on runner ups if you had to quantify it relative to winning.

It's a team sport. LeBron James is the best player I have ever seen and I always respected Michael Jordan's game. They play differently. They are built differently. But I prefer LeBron over Michael. Is that ok with you MJ stans?

[mehyaM24]

Theres no condition in which I'd take 2nd place over a Championship. 2nd place is always gonna mean that you werent good enough. These moral victory arguments are a new phenomenon. That why MVPs always come from the best teams in the league. How valuable can you be if you lost?

in most conditions i would agree, but there are extreme examples. checkout the one i posted on page 1. like, are you taking a player with 1 fmvp but mediocre career play. or a consistent superstar whose been to a handful of finals?

[SouBeachTalents]

The idea that making the Finals or the conference finals isn't significantly better than losing in the first round or missing the playoffs is legitimately retarded :lol

LeBron making the Finals in 2018 is literally tiers above him missing the playoffs in 2019, it's laughable to even insinuate that the two are similar. Ditto the Lakers losing in the play in tournament as opposed to making the WCF or Finals, one is much, much better than the other. It's honestly ridiculous that this discussion even needs to be had.

[dankok8]

I definitely value it more than third/fourth place but less than first place.

[Bronbron23]

It's a team sport. LeBron James is the best player I have ever seen and I always respected Michael Jordan's game. They play differently. They are built differently. But I prefer LeBron over Michael. Is that ok with you MJ stans?

Yup nothing wrong with that. Bron has a great argument for goat

[Bronbron23]

The idea that making the Finals or the conference finals isn't significantly better than losing in the first round or missing the playoffs is legitimately retarded :lol

LeBron making the Finals in 2018 is literally tiers above him missing the playoffs in 2019, it's laughable to even insinuate that the two are similar. Ditto the Lakers losing in the play in tournament as opposed to making the WCF or Finals, one is much, much better than the other. It's honestly ridiculous that this discussion even needs to be had.

Not saying it's not a little better. What's it worth though? Would you trade 1 chip for 20 runner ups?

[SouBeachTalents]

Not saying it's not a little better. What's it worth though? Would you trade 1 chip for 20 runner ups?
Nobody would, it's a ridiculous question to ask in the first place :lol Only literal trolls would argue that position

[mehyaM24]

Nobody would, it's a ridiculous question to ask in the first place :lol Only literal trolls would argue that position

if you're talking superstar vs superstar, ya. but i'm not taking chauncey billups career over john stockton's lol

[SouBeachTalents]

if you're talking superstar vs superstar, ya. but i'm not taking chauncey billups career over john stockton's lol
I'm talking strictly team result. If we're talking players, if it's even remotely close, I'll take being the lesser player with a ring. If it's not even close, I'd take being the superior player all day, even without a ring

[8Ball]

HEY, LeAnkle FANS,

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU3NzQ1NDczMDUzODkw/michael-jordan-versus-lebron-james.jpg

Lol I bought an 8ball of cocaine on Oct 11 2020.

Celebrating LeBron being the GOAT has got to be one of the most satisfying moments of my life.

You were having a meltdown while I was celebrating.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Would you rather earn 1 million dollars for 20 years or 1.1 million dollars for five years? If the two were competing against each other, yeah maybe the one came out on top more, but that steady success over time eventually is more meaningful than a small number of marginally higher highs.

In rough terms I see things like;
0 points losing record
1 point winning record miss playoffs
2 points lose first round
4 points lose second round
8 points lose third round
16 points lose finals
32 points win finals

That's not an exact scoring. It's more of a general idea. There's some value for each layer of success, and it shouldn't shouldn't ignored though obviously winning titles is the ultimate goal and has the highest value.

[mehyaM24]

I'm talking strictly team result. If we're talking players, if it's even remotely close, I'll take being the lesser player with a ring. If it's not even close, I'd take being the superior player all day, even without a ring

ya op linked a tiger woods video, so thought we were speaking on individuals. a lot of different variables there. like what their career arc is like. if they're supertars or have even been to a finals etc. generally speaking, i agree with you though. and for teams its a no brainer - doesn't matter what the scenario is there, its all about championships.

[BigShotBob]

The idea that making the Finals or the conference finals isn't significantly better than losing in the first round or missing the playoffs is legitimately retarded :lol

LeBron making the Finals in 2018 is literally tiers above him missing the playoffs in 2019, it's laughable to even insinuate that the two are similar. Ditto the Lakers losing in the play in tournament as opposed to making the WCF or Finals, one is much, much better than the other. It's honestly ridiculous that this discussion even needs to be had.

What it really comes down to is, if you're good enough to get there, then you're good enough to win.

However, if you weren't good enough to win as a team, but you were good enough to get there, that meant if you were in the other conference, you would have never made it there at all.

Thus, you only made it because your competition to get there was weak.

If Lebron on the Cavs in 2018 swapped with the Timberwolves and he was in the West, he would have never made it to the Finals. Everyone knows that. It's blatantly obvious, but no one likes to talk about it.

[tpols]

Not saying it's not a little better. What's it worth though? Would you trade 1 chip for 20 runner ups?

Anybody that's ever been a sports fan would trade one title for an infinite amount of 2nd places. I'm a hardcore Eagles fan, and the Eagles used to dominate the NFC East every year and be title favorites, only to choke and lose every year with McNabb.

I can tell you whole heartedly that I derived more satisfaction from watching the 2018 Superbowl win with a couple buddies in a now shut down Tilt N' Kilt sports bar, than I ever did watching them lose year after year as a kid, at home, with tremendous chokes.

[SouBeachTalents]

What it really comes down to is, if you're good enough to get there, then you're good enough to win.

However, if you weren't good enough to win as a team, but you were good enough to get there, that meant if you were in the other conference, you would have never made it there at all.

Thus, you only made it because your competition to get there was weak.

If Lebron on the Cavs in 2018 swapped with the Timberwolves and he was in the West, he would have never made it to the Finals. Everyone knows that. It's blatantly obvious, but no one likes to talk about it.
No one like to talk about it? The East is weak has been a talking point on here the entire 7 years I've been here :lol And I agree with you, I don't put as much stock in LeBron's 10 Finals appearances as I would under normal circumstances because you're right, he was winning an extremely weak conference for most of those trips. But in general, I still stand by my original comments, some people legitimately act like finishing 2nd or 3rd is the same as finishing 17th, and that's just completely ridiculous

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Theres no condition in which I'd take 2nd place over a Championship. 2nd place is always gonna mean that you werent good enough. These moral victory arguments are a new phenomenon. That why MVPs always come from the best teams in the league. How valuable can you be if you lost?

All these guys with this 2nd Place is nice, 2nd place is good ... LMAO, GTFO of HERE these guys. That's LOSERS mentality , just like LBJ , Mr 4/10

I must be getting crazy here but they think Goat Status players like Kobe and Michael were ok with playing all season long, all 82 games to finish second ... LMAO..

2nd is WORSE, It's DEVASTATING. :banghead:

That's why you always see the countries on the podium in the olympics and the 1st and 3rd place are happy and smiling but the 2nd place are always miserable. Why? Because Gold 1st and Bronze 3rd won their final games so it meant something nice the way they finished the competition .

Lebron james is just as Silver as Adam Silver, let the USA LOSE Gold in the Olympics to get another 2nd place.

Michael was Shiny GOLD, just like David Stern, masters of winning and making $$$$$$.

Lebron should change his jersey # to #2 because that man specializes in nothing but one thing, LOSING in the finals.

Michael doesn't know how that feels at all because he is a FINALS winner!!

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Lol I bought an 8ball of cocaine on Oct 11 2020.

Celebrating LeBron being the GOAT has got to be one of the most satisfying moments of my life.

You were having a meltdown while I was celebrating.

It's unfortunate you didn't have an overdose during that event. Well, think on the positive side, you would've died for your QUEEN.

[RogueBorg]

I doubt Jordan is capable of leading the 2007 Cavaliers, and 2018 Cavaliers in the finals.

Can't be proven either way so it's irrelevant.

6/15>4/18

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I think he was being sarcastic dude

I know, it's all good.

[Airupthere]

Levels to it.

2nd place while overachieving is commendable.
2nd place while being a stacked team losing to bunch of older players multiple times is another thing.

[RogueBorg]

Only loser Lebronstans think 2nd place is ok. Do any Buffalo Bills fans take any pleasure from losing 4 Super Bowls in a row? Nope
Do Stockton and Malone think they had a succesful season for losing back to back Finals? Nope

Only loser mentality Bronstans do. Losers, like their king.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll leave it to the guy who's won more than Jordan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nSa18rvVzI&t=176s

[Airupthere]

Only loser Lebronstans think 2nd place is ok. Do any Buffalo Bills fans take any pleasure from losing 4 Super Bowls in a row? Nope
Do Stockton and Malone think they had a succesful season for losing back to back Finals? Nope

Only loser mentality Bronstans do. Losers, like their king.

:applause:

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Only loser Lebronstans think 2nd place is ok. Do any Buffalo Bills fans take any pleasure from losing 4 Super Bowls in a row? Nope
Do Stockton and Malone think they had a succesful season for losing back to back Finals? Nope

Only loser mentality Bronstans do. Losers, like their king.

Exactly,

I never in my whole life heard of anybody congratulating Malone and Stockton for the 2nd place.

"Hey man, congratulations on the finals for achieving so much and arriving in 2nd." It's something that could 100% offend Either Stockton or Malone in a conversation and so many others 2nd places stars and other players. It's hurtful to be 2nd in sports all the time.

I guess the standards are really changing today and lots of 2nd's are being considered enough for GOAT or to put a LOSER on the Pedestal.

This is why it doesn't matter :no:what Lebum did/does or will do. It will never impress a Jordan fan. We were spoiled in the 90s.

It's all lies , fabricated and INEFFICIENT numbers with lebron and you can NEVER call a LOSER like that a GOAT because it's blasphemy!

[bullettooth]

I'd rather finish second facing the toughest competition ever than finish first going to bed at night realizing that the Seattle Supersonics were the toughest team I faced in the finals:applause:

This kind of millennial soyboy mentality is how you get 6 finals losses.

[97 bulls]

Anybody that's ever been a sports fan would trade one title for an infinite amount of 2nd places. I'm a hardcore Eagles fan, and the Eagles used to dominate the NFC East every year and be title favorites, only to choke and lose every year with McNabb.

I can tell you whole heartedly that I derived more satisfaction from watching the 2018 Superbowl win with a couple buddies in a now shut down Tilt N' Kilt sports bar, than I ever did watching them lose year after year as a kid, at home, with tremendous chokes.

Exactly. I'm thinking the 90s Bills

[StrongLurk]

All I know is Lebron James is the best individual basketball player ever.

[Bronbron23]

All I know is Lebron James is the best individual basketball player ever.

I'm not surprised that that's all you know

[Spurs m8]

I'm a LeBron fan. 2nd place is just as good as 1st place. LeBron's got 10 rings in my book.

Derp.

Lol

[iamgine]

Only first place receive the award. Except in Olympics where second and third places receives medals as well.

But unless we only value the award, then second place have value. Sometimes even more than first place.

The value itself depends on circumstances, but it's not dependent on how other people feel about it, or how many people congratulate you for it, or how even you yourself feel about it.

[Spurs m8]

Lol I bought an 8ball of cocaine on Oct 11 2020.

Celebrating LeBron being the GOAT has got to be one of the most satisfying moments of my life.

You were having a meltdown while I was celebrating.

I was celebrating 6 times while you were crying and melting

2 of those times celebrating extra hard.

Didn't have to team hop to do it either...

[Shooter]

It’s entirely a function of expectations.

Michael Phelps coming in second at a local event would be a big disappointment. A semi-competitive amateur coming in second at the Olympics would be a huge source of pride.

If you play on a stacked team in an incredibly weak era, and you conveniently avoid competing altogether for a couple years here and there when competition is tough, you better always win. Because youre basically stacking the deck.

If you are carrying inferior casts to overachievement time after time, in an ultra competitive era full of elite dynasties like the Spurs and Warriors, then reaching the final round is certainly much more gratifying than going, for instance, 1-9.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/HjheuybfwDGnu/source.gif

Fultzy da goat always out here dropping knowledge on the kids. So glad to be blessed with an individual on these boards with a high IQ.

[Shooter]

HEY, LeAnkle FANS,

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU3NzQ1NDczMDUzODkw/michael-jordan-versus-lebron-james.jpg

Pssssssssh

https://i.postimg.cc/kgcsK6qw/NoPipNoChip.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/t4rdbbQd/mj_ring_flowchart.png

[guy]

The money analogies are pretty terrible

[Shooter]

Exactly,

I never in my whole life heard of anybody congratulating Malone and Stockton for the 2nd place.

"Hey man, congratulations on the finals for achieving so much and arriving in 2nd." It's something that could 100% offend Either Stockton or Malone in a conversation and so many others 2nd places stars and other players. It's hurtful to be 2nd in sports all the time.

I guess the standards are really changing today and lots of 2nd's are being considered enough for GOAT or to put a LOSER on the Pedestal.

This is why it doesn't matter :no:what Lebum did/does or will do. It will never impress a Jordan fan. We were spoiled in the 90s.

It's all lies , fabricated and INEFFICIENT numbers with lebron and you can NEVER call a LOSER like that a GOAT because it's blasphemy!



Go to bed 3ball

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I was celebrating 6 times while you were crying and melting

2 of those times celebrating extra hard.

Didn't have to team hop to do it either...

:roll:

He was probably in his DADDY's nut sack, still. I heard he stayed there for 20 years while his Pappa tried a lot but only went 4/10 with Mamma 8ball before going into retirement.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Go to bed 3ball

The only person that needs to go to bed is your QUEEN in order to heal her ankle. Otherwise, he will lose again in his 100 years that he's been trying to catch up to Michael Jordan. Silly goose.

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU3NzQ1NDczMDUzODkw/michael-jordan-versus-lebron-james.jpg

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Pssssssssh

https://i.postimg.cc/kgcsK6qw/NoPipNoChip.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/t4rdbbQd/mj_ring_flowchart.png


What is the definition of brain death?
Brain death is defined as the irreversible loss of all functions of the brain, including the brainstem. The three essential findings in brain death are coma, absence of brainstem reflexes, and apnoea. An evaluation for brain death

[RogueBorg]

Exactly,

I never in my whole life heard of anybody congratulating Malone and Stockton for the 2nd place.

"Hey man, congratulations on the finals for achieving so much and arriving in 2nd." It's something that could 100% offend Either Stockton or Malone in a conversation and so many others 2nd places stars and other players. It's hurtful to be 2nd in sports all the time.

I guess the standards are really changing today and lots of 2nd's are being considered enough for GOAT or to put a LOSER on the Pedestal.

This is why it doesn't matter :no:what Lebum did/does or will do. It will never impress a Jordan fan. We were spoiled in the 90s.

It's all lies , fabricated and INEFFICIENT numbers with lebron and you can NEVER call a LOSER like that a GOAT because it's blasphemy!

I have have never heard so many excuses for losing coming from a player or his fans than I do for LeBron. Now, second place finishes are great. It's called Participation Trophy Mentality.

[ImKobe]

Depends heavily on the circumstance. Beating cupcake opponents and then losing to an actual contender in the Finals is not impressive nor is it anywhere close to actually winning the whole thing. One conference can be a lot weaker than the other, which has been the case for the majority of the last 2 decades with East vs. West.

[Airupthere]

Whether you end up 2nd or last or anywhere in between, its the same. You lost. What makes it worse is if you keep leGMing the shit out of your teams stacking it up and still manage to do a subpar 4/10, you should be banned from any top 10 talks.

Dr J is not wrong with his opinion.

[jlip]

Usually, I don't care about anything other than winning it all, but feelings aside, 2nd place is objectively, in every conceivable way, better than anything other than 1st.