Why does Lebron need high-seeds & all-star teammates to make deep runs?

[3ball]

.

2018 - Love was a perennial all-star and the best 2nd option in the conference, including superior PER and WS/48 than peak Pippen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493134-37-and-0-Then-LeStunning-happened&p=14316291&viewfull=1#post14316291)

2007 - the Cavs had a 2-time all-star center and acquired an all-defender, along with the future COY

2015 - Kyrie played half the games, including 2 games in the ECF


So only Jordan had deep runs with low seeds and no help (1989).

And Jordan carried a .500 team in 1995 to a 3-peat.

So Jordan carried weaker casts better.

Ultimately, Jordan had nothing when he made the playoffs in a conference that required a super-team to win it, while Lebron had high seeds and decorated teammates in a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

[RRR3]

I think OP has made over a thousand LeBron threads.

[TheCorporation]

1-9

[mehyaM24]

pippen was a perrenial all-nba player. jordan also never won being less than the 2 seed.

[3ball]

pippen was a perrenial all-nba player. jordan also never won being less than the 2 seed.


Lebron never made the playoffs without less than a 4 seed and he lost 5 times as a 1 or 2 seed

So what's your point

Look at the casts that lebron and MJ had when they first entered Playoffs or made 2nd Round - MJ accomplished both with nothing (playoffs or 2nd Round), while Lebron had high seeds and decorated teammates

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron was the Cavs only all star in 2007. No one else was even close.

The second best player in the finals on the 2015 Cavs was Timofey Mosgov. Maybe Dellavadova

[mehyaM24]

Lebron never made the playoffs without less than a 4 seed and he lost 5 times as a 1 or 2 seed

So what's your point

rewind the tape. you said lebron "needed" an all-star teammate and high seeds to make deep runs. well, jordan needed an all-nba player (better than an all-star) & 1 or 2 seeds to win rings.

so what is YOUR point?

[3ball]

Lebron was the Cavs only all star in 2007. No one else was even close


You're forgetting that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs in 06' as a developed, high seed.

So the 07' Cavs were seasoned vets and high-seeded favorites that included a 2-time all-star center, an all-defender acquisition, and the future COY.. They also had the#4 defense and a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, 89' Jordan had nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Night and day

[ShawkFactory]

You're forgetting that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs in 06' as a developed, high seed.

So the 07' Cavs were seasoned vets and high-seeded favorites that included a 2-time all-star center, an all-defender acquisition, and the future COY.. They also had the#4 defense and a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, 89' Jordan had nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Night and day
No one on the 2007 Cavs was an all star or all anything. Illgauskas was playing 26 minutes a game and Mike Brown was 2 years removed from been carried by lebron and recognized as the worst COTY of all time.

[mehyaM24]

lebron also won a ring without all-stars and all-league players (2016). jordan never did. which also means lebron carried more weight.

[3ball]

rewind the tape. you said lebron "needed" an all-star teammate and high seeds to make deep runs. well,


jordan needed an all-nba player (better than an all-star) & 1 or 2 seeds to win rings.





Lebron needed more than the bolded above to win - he needed 2 perennial all-star teammates (super-team), or he needed to be the "pippen" to AD (AD was the NBA's leading scorer in Playoffs, and led the Lakers in regular season)

So Lebron needed more to win (super-team or being the "pippen"), and he needed more to make playoffs or have deep runs (all-star teammates and high seeds)

Anything else?

[mehyaM24]

Lebron needed more than the bolded above to win - he needed 2 perennial all-star teammates (super-team), or he needed to be the "pippen" to AD (AD was the NBA's leading scorer in Playoffs, and led the Lakers in regular season)

So Lebron needed more to win (super-team or being the "pippen"), and he needed more to have deep runs (all-star teammates and high seeds)

Anything else?

no he didn't. for more education refer to post #10. lebron's 16 ring is more impressive than any of jordan's. easily.

[8Ball]

Jodan got swept in the first round with 23ppg 55% scorer.

That would never happen to Bron.

[mehyaM24]

Jodan got swept in the first round with 23ppg 55% scorer.

That would never happen to Bron.

that's a checkmate lol

[3ball]

:facepalm:

[3ball]

Jodan got swept in the first round with 23ppg 55% scorer.

That would never happen to Bron.


Lebron was beaten by worse with 29 ppg sidekick, top seeds, and super-teams

So Jordan's rookie 8 seeds are irrelevant..

Jordan was thrown into the playoffs as a rookie 8 seed, while lebron got 2 years of seasoning in the lottery and entered the playoffs in Year 3 as a developed, high seed with decorated teammates and coaches

[3ball]

no he didn't. for more education refer to post #10. lebron's 16 ring is more impressive than any of jordan's. easily.


Kyrie was hurt in 16' but was already a perennial all-star and all-nba... Otoh, Pippen played every game in 91' but simply wasn't good enough to make it - so Jordan won with a 1x all-star that hadn't made all-nba, while Lebron always had multiple teammates with all-nba accolades when he won titles.

Ultimately, Lebron needed 2 perennial all-stars to win, or he needed to be the "pippen" to AD

That's the historical record, not my opinion




no he didn't. for more education refer to post #10. lebron's 16 ring is more impressive than any of jordan's. easily.


Lebron needed more to win (super-team or playing 2nd fiddle), and he also needed more to make the playoffs or deep runs (all-stars and high seeds).

Btw, Jordan carried the scoring load (carry-job), while Lebron never did while winning a Finals.. So don't bring up 2016 when Lebron had an equal-scoring partner - it's impossible to lose when your 2nd option is destroying the opponent's #1 option - it's literally never happened..

[mehyaM24]

so was pippen in 98. he still made all-league. which means the point stands. the 16 cavs only one all-star/all-league player. and it was lebron. jordan never beat a team as good as the 16 warriors, and certainly never pulled as much weight.

[ShawkFactory]

:facepalm:

This is probably the most ironic post I’ve ever seen. Well done :applause:

[3ball]

so was pippen in 98. he still made all-league. which means the point stands. the 16 cavs only one all-star/all-league player. and it was lebron. jordan never beat a team as good as the 16 warriors, and certainly never pulled as much weight.


91' Jordan won as the preseason underdog with a 1x all-star that hadn't made all-nba in his career yet, while Lebron always had multiple teammates with all-nba accolades when he won titles, along with preseason favorite status

So Lebron needed more to win (super-team or playing 2nd fiddle, and favorite status), and he also needed more to make the playoffs or deep runs (all-stars and high seeds).

Btw, show me where Lebron carried the scoring load (carry-job), otherwise he didn't do shit.. Kyrie and Lebron averaged the same in the 16' Finals

[ImKobe]

so was pippen in 98. he still made all-league. which means the point stands. the 16 cavs only one all-star/all-league player. and it was lebron. jordan never beat a team as good as the 16 warriors, and certainly never pulled as much weight.

'91 Bulls had 0 All-Stars/All-NBA besides Jordan. Pippen played all 82 games, so it wasn't an injury case like the 2016 Cavs.

[mehyaM24]

'91 Bulls had 0 All-Stars/All-NBA besides Jordan. Pippen played all 82 games, so it wasn't an injury case like the 2016 Cavs.

i also mentioned all-league though. pippen made one in 91, while the cavaliers had none. except for lebron of course.


91' Jordan won as the preseason underdog with a 1x all-star that hadn't made all-nba in his career yet, while Lebron always had multiple teammates with all-nba accolades when he won titles, along with preseason favorite status

So Lebron needed more to win (super-team or playing 2nd fiddle, and favorite status), and he also needed more to make the playoffs or deep runs (all-stars and high seeds).

Btw, show me where Lebron carried the scoring load (carry-job), otherwise he didn't do shit.. Kyrie and Lebron averaged the same in the 16' Finals

the year in question lebron did not though, so that's irrelevant. the 16 cavs were without: all-stars, all-nba players and all-leaguers. that and lebron's opponent was stronger than any of chicago's. factor all that in and its a "carry-job" greater than any of jordan's.

[AirBonner]

LeBron! LeBron!!!!

[Axe]

No maurice and zenmaster = lottery team with 8 seeds

[KobesFinger]

What are you calling a deep playoff run? The Bulls didn’t make the finals in 89. If CF is a deep run, what about the 09 and 10 Cavs? And why are you giving Jordan credit for making the playoffs with a losing record? That shows he couldn’t do it either

[ImKobe]

i also mentioned all-league though. pippen made one in 91, while the cavaliers had none. except for lebron of course.



the year in question lebron did not though, so that's irrelevant. the 16 cavs were without: all-stars, all-nba players and all-leaguers. that and lebron's opponent was stronger than any of chicago's. factor all that in and its a "carry-job" greater than any of jordan's.

He wasn't All-NBA in '91 :facepalm. MJ was the only all-star/all-nba player on his team in the 1990-91 season, and those guys weren't injured like Irving and Love in 2016.

[ShawkFactory]

He wasn't All-NBA in '91 :facepalm. MJ was the only all-star/all-nba player on his team in the 1990-91 season, and those guys weren't injured like Irving and Love in 2016.
Saying Pippen wasn’t all nba or an all star in 1991 is the same as saying Kyrie wasn’t an all star in 2016.

Both statements are true. Neither statement means anything at all.

[mehyaM24]

He wasn't All-NBA in '91 :facepalm. MJ was the only all-star/all-nba player on his team in the 1990-91 season, and those guys weren't injured like Irving and Love in 2016.

you're not comprehending properly. i said pippen was ALL-LEAGUE. which includes defense. 16 lebron had neither: all-stars, all-nba players or all-leaguers. pippen was also injured in 98, missing half the year. but still made all-nba and all-league defense.

lebron simply did more with less.

[ImKobe]

you're not comprehending properly. i said pippen was ALL-LEAGUE. which includes defense. 16 lebron had neither: all-stars, all-nba players or all-leaguers. pippen was also injured in 98, missing half the year. but still made all-nba and all-league defense.

lebron simply did more with less.

Wow, he was 2nd team All-Defense, who cares? Jordan was 1st team All-D btw. Pippen wasn't voted as an all-star nor as one of the top 15 players in the league (All-NBA), he played ALL 82 GAMES. Irving wasn't in the conversation because he missed 29 games.


Saying Pippen wasn’t all nba or an all star in 1991 is the same as saying Kyrie wasn’t an all star in 2016.

Both statements are true. Neither statement means anything at all.

I'm just using their own logic against them. How many times have they used that argument in favor of Lebron? It wasn't the same situation though. Irving was injured, Pippen wasn't.

[mehyaM24]

Wow, he was 2nd team All-Defense, who cares? Jordan was 1st team All-D btw. Pippen wasn't voted as an all-star nor as one of the top 15 players in the league (All-NBA), he played ALL 82 GAMES. Irving wasn't in the conversation because he missed 29 games.

ya who cares about a player having high defensive impact. good argument bozo. pippen proved his worth in the playoffs and finals, finishing top 8 in bpm, top 3 in winshares & top 4 in value over replacement. you also ducked the point about 98 pippen. he was injured for half the year in 98, but still made all-nba and all-defense.

[ShawkFactory]

Wow, he was 2nd team All-Defense, who cares? Jordan was 1st team All-D btw. Pippen wasn't voted as an all-star nor as one of the top 15 players in the league (All-NBA), he played ALL 82 GAMES. Irving wasn't in the conversation because he missed 29 games.



I'm just using their own logic against them. How many times have they used that argument in favor of Lebron? It wasn't the same situation though. Irving was injured, Pippen wasn't.

To be honest I totally get that.

Also to be fair...if we go by PER, WS/48, VORP, and BPM, Pippen was absolutely superior in ‘91 to Kyrie in 2016. In some cases by quite a bit.

Both players were absolutely perfect compliments to the superstar though.

[mehyaM24]

To be honest I totally get that.

Also to be fair...if we go by PER, WS/48, VORP, and BPM, Pippen was absolutely superior in ‘91 to Kyrie in 2016. In some cases by quite a bit.

Both players were absolutely perfect compliments to the superstar though.

his argument sucks dude lol. wants to ignore defense because kyrie & love were poor on that end.

[tpols]

Pippen beating up on an injured Lakers team isn't the same as what Kyrie did out playing the only UMVP in the history of basketball, putting up Wilt lines, and hitting the game 7 championship shot. Contextually what Kyrie did was better. I dont care about what he averaged when they were blowing the Raptors out in the ECF.

[mehyaM24]

Pippen beating up on an injured Lakers team isn't the same as what Kyrie did out playing the only UMVP in the history of basketball, putting up Wilt lines, and hitting the game 7 championship shot. Contextually what Kyrie did was better. I dont care about what he averaged when they were blowing the Raptors out in the ECF.

magic had one of his best offense years, and finished 2nd in mvp voting behind jordan. moreover worthy & scott were still in their prime.

the warriors were also injured. plus draymond missed a pivotal closeout game.

[Hey Yo]

You're forgetting that the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas had 2 years of seasoning in the lottery before entering the playoffs in 06' as a developed, high seed.

So the 07' Cavs were seasoned vets and high-seeded favorites that included a 2-time all-star center, an all-defender acquisition, and the future COY.. They also had the#4 defense and a conference that 1-star teams routinely won.

Otoh, 89' Jordan had nothing in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Night and day

So 89 Detroit is considered a superteam with only 1 all-star?? (Thomas)

[And1AllDay]

Jodan got swept in the first round with 23ppg 55% scorer.

That would never happen to Bron.

issa wrap for the thread

3baLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL takes an L again

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is better than Jordan no matter what OP says.

[Axe]

Lebron is better than Jordan no matter what OP says.
Huh? But i thought you said it was the other way around? Which is it really?

[bullettooth]

Why does Lebron need high-seeds & all-star teammates to make deep runs?

The simplest conclusion is usually the right one; LeBron just isn't as good as the media wants him to be.

[Spurs m8]

The simplest conclusion is usually the right one; LeBron just isn't as good as the media wants him to be.

They hyped him from before day 1 and he just couldn't live up to the hype on court.

Never has been able to

[kawhileonard2]

I'm more curious why he jumps from team to team to join younger and younger stars each time?

[deathawaitu]

We all witness Lebron chokejob his first year at the West

Playoff mode activated

[Spurs m8]

We all witness Lebron chokejob his first year at the West

Playoff mode activated

As well as his first season on the cHeat

*JJ and Jason Terry blow a kiss

[francis222]

He needs to play d league teams like sun's and bobcats to get passed first round. Scrubs who would clean used car seats when hand checking was allowed.

[eliteballer]

:facepalm