Rank these players: Duncan, Kobe and Shaq

[lilteapot]

To me, it goes:

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

Shaq had the greatest peak of the 3, but I think Duncan and Kobe were more consistently great than Shaq.

[Bankaii]

Initially, I thought this was one of those debates where there isn’t a wrong answer.
But putting Kobe at 1 is definitely the wrong answer.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

If someone were to rank Kobe over Duncan, I couldn't care less. Wouldn't agree but its not blaspheme or anything.

[lilteapot]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

If someone were to rank Kobe over Duncan, I couldn't care less. Wouldn't agree but its not blaspheme or anything.

FWIW I think it's real close between all 3 of these guys. You can argue Duncan had the better career than Kobe in some ways but I wouldn't make those arguments personally.

[tanibanana]

Duncan, then Kobe, then Shaq.

[RRR3]

Kobe over Shaq literally makes zero sense. We saw them play together and Shaq was better, and they had similar longevity.

[scuzzy]

sqaq
duncan
kobe


but I would draft duncan over shaq 9 out of 10 times bc his leadership and longevity go beyond snaq

[Bankaii]

Kobe over Shaq literally makes zero sense. We saw them play together and Shaq was better, and they had similar longevity.
Idk where this notion that Shaq doesn’t have longevity.
Even being really strict, Shaq has a solid 10 years of elite play.

[ImKobe]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Kobe needed less to win than Shaq. With Shaq, you needed another elite scorer/closer to win championships. As dominant as Shaq was statistically, the fact that he was a liability at the end of games and that he didn't consistently put in the work and stay in shape for him & Kobe to win more rings makes it impossible for me to rank him over Bean, it's really close between Shaq and Duncan, but Timmy was a much better defensive player and could actually close games and make FTs. I could swap the 2, Shaq did destroy Duncan in most match-ups.

As far as Duncan goes, Kobe beat/outplayed him in the Playoffs so many times. It's crazy that they have the same amount of rings, when Duncan had great help and arguably the best coaching staff his entire career. He went from prime D-Rob to TP & Manu to Kawhi. I know Kobe had Shaq & all, but his peak was wasted on a team that had 0 chance contending, and went to 3 straight Finals with just Gasol as his co-star. It's crazy that Kobe made more Finals than Duncan.


Kobe over Shaq literally makes zero sense. We saw them play together and Shaq was better, and they had similar longevity.

Shaq went from Wade to Nash to Lebron to the Celtics, he has one ring to show for it. Meanwhile, he left Kobe in a rebuilding situation and Kobe ends up going to 3 straight Finals (Shaq only made the one with Wade, obviously 1 before Kobe with Penny) and winning 2 titles & 2 FMVPs with Gasol. Shaq needed Kobe/Wade, Kobe proved he didn't need another all-timer on his team to win championships.

[scuzzy]

As far as Duncan goes, Shaq beat/outplayed him in the Playoffs so many times. .

Plus this.

[Reggie43]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[Cold soul]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

[TAZORAC]

1. Shaq 2.Duncan 3.Kobe

That's why its always a joke when people use to compare Kobe from LBJ, when Kobe wasn't even greater then his teammate Shaq

[RRR3]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Kobe needed less to win than Shaq. With Shaq, you needed another elite scorer/closer to win championships. As dominant as Shaq was statistically, the fact that he was a liability at the end of games and that he didn't consistently put in the work and stay in shape for him & Kobe to win more rings makes it impossible for me to rank him over Bean, it's really close between Shaq and Duncan, but Timmy was a much better defensive player and could actually close games and make FTs. I could swap the 2, Shaq did destroy Duncan in most match-ups.

As far as Duncan goes, Kobe beat/outplayed him in the Playoffs so many times. It's crazy that they have the same amount of rings, when Duncan had great help and arguably the best coaching staff his entire career. He went from prime D-Rob to TP & Manu to Kawhi. I know Kobe had Shaq & all, but his peak was wasted on a team that had 0 chance contending, and went to 3 straight Finals with just Gasol as his co-star. It's crazy that Kobe made more Finals than Duncan.



Shaq went from Wade to Nash to Lebron to the Celtics, he has one ring to show for it. Meanwhile, he left Kobe in a rebuilding situation and Kobe ends up going to 3 straight Finals (Shaq only made the one with Wade, obviously 1 before Kobe with Penny) and winning 2 titles & 2 FMVPs with Gasol. Shaq needed Kobe/Wade, Kobe proved he didn't need another all-timer on his team to win championships.
Yeah he was totally in his prime when he played with Nash and LeBron :oldlol: He was in his prime for at most one year with Wade too.

[Airupthere]

Shaq, kobe, duncan

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[tpols]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Shaq had poor intangibles and a very exploitable weakness that made his offensive efficiency not nearly as good as people think, because apparently possessions with FTs don't count. Duncan had GOAT intangibles but didn't have Kobes takeover ceiling. Kobe whooped on Duncan in the playoffs, and needed less help to win than Shaq. (winning with pau is much harder than winning with wade / kobe).

[2much_knowledge]

To me, it goes:

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

Shaq had the greatest peak of the 3, but I think Duncan and Kobe were more consistently great than Shaq.

Same order

[Stanley Kobrick]

much like others stated, i too have tim duncan, shaquille oneal and then kobe bryant.

[ShawkFactory]

I don’t understand how someone could take Kobe over Duncan because of their respective teams’ playoff matchups. They literally didn’t guard each other once.

I could understand if they guarded each other frequently or went one on one and Kobe outplayed him...but that didn’t happen.

Various circumstances led to each of the Laker victories.

Kobe was amazing in 2001, but so was Shaq and Fisher shot 75% from 3 in the series.

In 2002 Duncan had 29/17/5 with only one other teammates (a rookie) in double figures. Shaq had 21/13.

2004 could have gone either way. Who knows what happens if Fisher doesn’t hit that shot.

Point is, the playoff results is a lazy way to compare two players who rarely had anything to do with each other on the court.

[2much_knowledge]

I don’t understand how someone could take Kobe over Duncan because of their respective teams’ playoff matchups. They literally didn’t guard each other once.

I could understand if they guarded each other frequently or went one on one and Kobe outplayed him...but that didn’t happen.

Various circumstances led to each of the Laker victories.

Kobe was amazing in 2001, but so was Shaq and Fisher shot 75% from 3 in the series.

In 2002 Duncan had 29/17/5 with only one other teammates (a rookie) in double figures. Shaq had 21/13.

2004 could have gone either way. Who knows what happens if Fisher doesn’t hit that shot.

Point is, the playoff results is a lazy way to compare two players who rarely had anything to do with each other on the court.

What about 2008?

One negative thing about Timmy is that he was never ever able to defend his tittle. Even with stacked teams. Kobe did that 3 times

[ShawkFactory]

What about 2008?

One negative thing about Timmy is that he was never ever able to defend his tittle. Even with stacked teams. Kobe did that 3 times
Kobe was excellent in that 2008 series. Maybe the best of his career.

The fact that it came against the Spurs shouldn’t count against Duncan though.

[kawhileonard2]

Accolades it is Duncan, Shaq, Kobe

[rmt]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Shaq had poor intangibles and a very exploitable weakness that made his offensive efficiency not nearly as good as people think, because apparently possessions with FTs don't count. Duncan had GOAT intangibles but didn't have Kobes takeover ceiling. Kobe whooped on Duncan in the playoffs, and needed less help to win than Shaq. (winning with pau is much harder than winning with wade / kobe).

Takeover ceiling? - lol. You mention Kobe needing less help to win than Shaq but you fail to mention Duncan winning with a 20 year old 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu. That wasn't TAKEOVER - that was CARRY - for the entire season and playoffs.

The greater Shaq and Kobe are thought of - they had each other and were TEAM MATES for the majority of their championships.

[ImKobe]

Yeah he was totally in his prime when he played with Nash and LeBron :oldlol: He was in his prime for at most one year with Wade too.

Who cares, he played with damn near every superstar in the 2000s and only won 1 without Kobe. That's the point here. Shaq was 32 when he left LA, not 35..

But the biggest issue to me is that he can't do it by himself, he absolutely needs another elite player to win. Gasol was great, but Kobe could dominate a game AND close it out, he didn't need another top 5 player in the league to win. Kobe and Duncan didn't need as much help to win a championship, that's just facts.

[Rysio]

Kobe shaq then Duncan. Duncan is a lot worse offensively don't think he belongs with shaq and kobe.

[tpols]

Takeover ceiling? - lol. You mention Kobe needing less help to win than Shaq but you fail to mention Duncan winning with a 20 year old 2nd year Parker and rookie Manu. That wasn't TAKEOVER - that was CARRY - for the entire season and playoffs.

The greater Shaq and Kobe are thought of - they had each other and were TEAM MATES for the majority of their championships.

Duncan's 2003 run was overrated. He faced a Dallas team without Dirk in the WCFs, and then a a Net team who had Jason Kidd and no other all stars. In fact, David Robinson massively outplayed Kenyon Martin, and Tony Parker outplayed Richard Jefferson. So Duncan actually had more help than Kidd and barely won. You get a cookie for that, but it doesnt make up for all the other ass kickings. Lebron was Duncan's only whipping boy.

[ShawkFactory]

Duncan's 2003 run was overrated. He faced a Dallas team without Dirk in the WCFs, and then a a Net team who had Jason Kidd and no other all stars. In fact, David Robinson massively outplayed Kenyon Martin, and Tony Parker outplayed Richard Jefferson. So Duncan actually had more help than Kidd and barely won. You get a cookie for that, but it doesnt make up for all the other ass kickings. Lebron was Duncan's only whipping boy.
Dirk played the first 3 games and the Spurs were up 2-1. Who knows what happens if Dirk keeps playing but that series was probably going 7 regardless.

What about what he did in the Lakers series? Where he outplayed Shaq.

In the finals the Spurs won their 4 games by an average of 9.6 PPG. The Nets won their 2 games by a total of 3 points. The ORTGs were 100.0 and 93.3 in favor of the Spurs. No, the Spurs did not "barely win". The Nets were lucky that it even went to 6 games.

[hold this L]

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe

[Chick Stern]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Anybody who puts Kobe last had their heart broken by him, repeatedly.
He is the only one of the three who is continually sighted by many, many players as their idol.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

Anybody who puts Kobe last had their heart broken by him, repeatedly.
He is the only one of the three who is continually sighted by many, many players as their idol.

I guarantee you more people cite Iverson as their idol than Duncan.

[Kblaze8855]

The best player period was Shaq, I’d take Duncan first to start a franchise in the era they all played, and Kobe first in this era that sets out to make ball handlers unstoppable.

[Phoenix]

What about 2008?

One negative thing about Timmy is that he was never ever able to defend his tittle. Even with stacked teams. Kobe did that 3 times

On the flipside of that is his first and last titles were 15 years apart. Most greats win their chips within a shorter time frame).

Anyways, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, though I can understand the reasons why someone would draft Duncan first.

[rawimpact]

Depends on what I am ranking them for. If I want to ring in today's era, hands down it's Shaq. If it's overall career, it's Duncan. If it's skillset - it's Kobe.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1) Kobe

2) Shaq

3) Duncan

I would put Kobe at #1 because he destroyed Duncan in the playoffs 2000s era in 4 out of 5 different playoff series! Including 2008 when he only got 13PPG from 2nd option Gasol.

I will say Kobe is better then Shaq as well because he was able to replace him with a non superstar Pau Gasol and pretty much get equal results (3 finals, 2 rings but ran into super team Celtics).

I think shaq 2000, 2001, 2002, 1995 are four better playoff runs then Duncan's best four.


I think Kobe has the best four playoff runs of the group (2001, 2008, 2009, 2010).

Also I think Kobe had the more complicated role in the triangle being the point guard of the team, while shaq main job was just to score.

[SouBeachTalents]

1) Kobe

2) Shaq

3) Duncan

I would put Kobe at #1 because he destroyed Duncan in the playoffs 2000s era in 4 out of 5 different playoff series! Including 2008 when he only got 13PPG from 2nd option Gasol.

I will say Kobe is better then Shaq as well because he was able to replace him with a non superstar Pau Gasol and pretty much get equal results (3 finals, 2 rings but ran into super team Celtics).

I think shaq 2000, 2001, 2002, 1995 are four better playoff runs then Duncan's best four.


I think Kobe has the best four playoff runs of the group (2001, 2008, 2009, 2010).

Also I think Kobe had the more complicated role in the triangle being the point guard of the team, while shaq main job was just to score.
‘00 Shaq & ‘03 Duncan are the two best title runs of the last 20 years

[Phoenix]

1) Kobe

2) Shaq

3) Duncan

I would put Kobe at #1 because he destroyed Duncan in the playoffs 2000s era in 4 out of 5 different playoff series! Including 2008 when he only got 13PPG from 2nd option Gasol.

I will say Kobe is better then Shaq as well because he was able to replace him with a non superstar Pau Gasol and pretty much get equal results (3 finals, 2 rings but ran into super team Celtics).

I think shaq 2000, 2001, 2002, 1995 are four better playoff runs then Duncan's best four.


I think Kobe has the best four playoff runs of the group (2001, 2008, 2009, 2010).

Also I think Kobe had the more complicated role in the triangle being the point guard of the team, while shaq main job was just to score.

Shaq averaged 38/17/3/2, 33/16/3/5 and 36/12/3/4 in the 3peat finals. But yeah sure.....he only scored.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

‘00 Shaq & ‘03 Duncan are the two best title runs of the last 20 years

Kawhi in 2019 was better then both of those. That was in a weak era with no super teams.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Shaq averaged 38/17/3/2, 33/16/3/5 and 36/12/3/4 in the 3peat finals. But yeah sure.....he only scored.

Like I said, Kobe was able to replace Shaq with non superstar Pau Gasol who had 0 playoff wins and pretty much get the same results. 2 rings and would of won 3 rings but 2008 Celtics were like the 2017 warriors of their era. Shaq never beat a finals team even close to the 2008 Celtics.

Also Kobe was able to easily eliminate Parker/manu/Duncan in 2008 when he beat them 4-1 and Pau played like a role player averaging 13PPG Hahahahaha

[Phoenix]

Kawhi in 2019 was better then both of those. That was in a weak era with no super teams.

Kawhi didn't play any superteams in 2019 either, unless we're pretending KD and Klay played the entire finals.

[Phoenix]

Like I said, Kobe was able to replace Shaq with non superstar Pau Gasol who had 0 playoff wins and pretty much get the same results. 2 rings and would of won 3 rings but 2008 Celtics were like the 2017 warriors of their era. Shaq never beat a finals team even close to the 2008 Celtics.

Also Kobe was able to easily eliminate Parker/manu/Duncan in 2008 when he beat them 4-1 and Pau played like a role player averaging 13PPG Hahahahaha

In the 3peat the best teams were in the WCF, not the finals. Those Kings, Spurs, and Blazer squads could have hung with those Celtics.

In any case, you said all Shaq did was score. Which, objectively, is wrong.

[tpols]

Depends on what I am ranking them for. If I want to ring in today's era, hands down it's Shaq. If it's overall career, it's Duncan. If it's skillset - it's Kobe.

Shaq would get destroyed in todays era. It would be a 3pt mismatch switch game all day long. Shaq with his poor FT shooting cant match the rate of top guys that can hit from deep today so efficiently. And shoot FTs at 90%. His dunks were spectacular but 2 points is 2 points in the flow of the game. Shaq wasn't a clutch performer by any means either because an elite jumper is a prerequisite for that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kawhi didn't play any superteams in 2019 either, unless we're pretending KD and Klay played the entire finals.

Embiid\Butler is certainly a super team, that's like the 2020s version of Kobe\Shaq.

Also Curry\Draymond are the best duo in the NBA since 2015 and Kawhi eliminated them. Nobody has eliminated Draymond Green in a 7 game series since 2015 outside of Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In the 3peat the best teams were in the WCF, not the finals. Those Kings, Spurs, and Blazer squads could have hung with those Celtics.

In any case, you said all Shaq did was score. Which, objectively, is wrong.

replaced by Pau Gasol with 0 playoff wins and got the same results. Sounds like i'm right here. Also Shaq was beating Spurs when Parker\Manu were not in their primes yet, while Kobe destroyed Parker\Manu in their primes in 2008.

[Phoenix]

Embiid\Butler is certainly a super team, that's like the 2020s version of Kobe\Shaq.

Also Curry\Draymond are the best duo in the NBA since 2015 and Kawhi eliminated them. Nobody has eliminated Draymond Green in a 7 game series since 2015 outside of Kawhi.

Lol no.

Draymond without Steph last year was one of the worst starters in the league. We've seen him without Steph. Not pretty.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Shaq would get destroyed in todays era. It would be a 3pt mismatch switch game all day long. Shaq with his poor FT shooting cant match the rate of top guys that can hit from deep today so efficiently. And shoot FTs at 90%. His dunks were spectacular but 2 points is 2 points in the flow of the game. Shaq wasn't a clutch performer by any means either because an elite jumper is a prerequisite for that.

Also got replaced by Pau Gasol and still ended up winning multiple rings hahahaha. That's like Anthony Davis being replaced by Karl Anthony Towns and Lebron still winning titles with him.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Lol no.

Draymond without Steph last year was one of the worst starters in the league. We've seen him without Steph. Not pretty.

Embiid is having a 2000 Shaq lite season right now, Butler led his team to the finals with a worse supporting cast then Kobe ever had.

Draymond is with Steph, that's the point you idiot. They compliment each other perfectly in a similar fashion to Jordan\Pippen.

[Phoenix]

replaced by Pau Gasol with 0 playoff wins and got the same results. Sounds like i'm right here. Also Shaq was beating Spurs when Parker\Manu were not in their primes yet, while Kobe destroyed Parker\Manu in their primes in 2008.

You said all Shaq did was score. I posted the numbers above. Sounds like I'm right here Klit.

[Phoenix]

Embiid is having a 2000 Shaq lite season right now, Butler led his team to the finals with a worse supporting cast then Kobe ever had.

Draymond is with Steph, that's the point you idiot. They compliment each other perfectly in a similar fashion to Jordan\Pippen.

In a bubble, the same bubble you dismiss when it comes to Kawhi. So don't uphold it now because Miami had a Cinderella run. Let's see what they do this year.

Steph and Draymond didn't win the title on their own, jackass. You seem to forget Klay. Steph and Draymond as a duo would never have won a title or even got to the finals. Steph is having the best season he's had since 2016 and, role player changes aside, without Klay they're a low playoff seed.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In the 3peat the best teams were in the WCF, not the finals. Those Kings, Spurs, and Blazer squads could have hung with those Celtics.

In any case, you said all Shaq did was score. Which, objectively, is wrong.

They never faced two teams of that caliber in 1 playoff run like the ones Kobe\Pau faced in 2008

prime parker\manu\duncan

prime pierce\kg\allen

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You said all Shaq did was score. I posted the numbers above. Sounds like I'm right here Klit.

Relative to Kobe all he did was score. Kobe was the better shooter, scorer, defender, playmaker, closer and won rings without him. What did Shaq win without Kobe again??

[HBK_Kliq_2]

In a bubble, the same bubble you dismiss when it comes to Kawhi. So don't uphold it now because Miami had a Cinderella run. Let's see what they do this year.

Steph and Draymond didn't win the title on their own, jackass. You seem to forget Klay. Steph and Draymond as a duo would never have won a title or even got to the finals. Steph is having the best season he's had since 2016 and, role player changes aside, without Klay they're a low playoff seed.

Some guys handle the bubble better then others, that doesn't mean you have to dismiss the run. Paul George was soft and didn't handle the bubble well. Butler is tough and handled it perfectly, he deserves credit for that run.

Steph\Draymond are the ones who lead the warriors in advanced stats during their title run in 2015 and finals run in 2016, klay is just a 3rd fiddle glorified role player.

Kawhi beat Curry\Dray\Klay with 1 of them missing roughly a game, we saw Lebron proclaim himself as the GOAT for doing this same exact thing in 2016. The only difference is Kawhi beat the tougher team because all the advanced stats say that Draymond is clearly more valuable then Klay and it's not even close.

Curry\Draymond by themselves is still better then Jason Kidd and Kenyon Martin anyways.

[Phoenix]

They never faced two teams of that caliber in 1 playoff run like the ones Kobe\Pau faced in 2008

prime parker\manu\duncan

prime pierce\kg\allen

2008 Spurs weren't better than the early 2000s Spurs. 2001 Spurs had peak Duncan and Robinson, while past his prime, was still an all-star. 2008 Spurs had post planter Fasciitis Duncan who, while still great, wasn't 2001/2002 era peak Duncan.

The Celtics got taken to 7 by a 37 win Hawks team. Lol at acting like the Sheed/Pippen/Smith/Stoudamire/Detlef Blazers or Webber/Peja/Bibby Kings couldn't hang with those Celtics.

[Phoenix]

Some guys handle the bubble better then others, that doesn't mean you have to dismiss the run. Paul George was soft and didn't handle the bubble well. Butler is tough and handled it perfectly, he deserves credit for that run.

Steph\Draymond are the ones who lead the warriors in advanced stats during their title run in 2015 and finals run in 2016, klay is just a 3rd fiddle glorified role player.

Kawhi beat Curry\Dray\Klay with 1 of them missing roughly a game, we saw Lebron proclaim himself as the GOAT for doing this same exact thing in 2016. The only difference is Kawhi beat the tougher team because all the advanced stats say that Draymond is clearly more valuable then Klay and it's not even close.

Curry\Draymond by themselves is still better then Jason Kidd and Kenyon Martin anyways.

Klay was 3rd team all-nba and the teams 2nd leading scorer at 22ppg on 47/43 shooting numbers and was the teams primary backcourt defender but sure.......glorified role player. You can port Klay to any team and he'll give you that production. We've seen Dray on his own....again....not pretty.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2008 Spurs weren't better than the early 2000s Spurs. 2001 Spurs had peak Duncan and Robinson, while past his prime, was still an all-star. 2008 Spurs had post planter Fasciitis Duncan who, while still great, wasn't 2001/2002 era peak Duncan.

The Celtics got taken to 7 by a 37 win Hawks team. Lol at acting like the Sheed/Pippen/Smith/Stoudamire/Detlef Blazers or Webber/Peja/Bibby Kings couldn't hang with those Celtics.

2001 had 20 year old tony parker who wasn't nearly as good as he was in 2008.

And 2008 was arguably peak Manu.

Duncan was still in his prime at 30 years old, are you claiming his prime was done by 2008? I guess Kawhi carried his grandpa ass by 2014 then, if he was already done by 2008.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Klay was 3rd team all-nba and the teams 2nd leading scorer at 22ppg on 47/43 shooting numbers and was the teams primary backcourt defender but sure.......glorified role player. You can port Klay to any team and he'll give you that production. We've seen Dray on his own....again....not pretty.

Draymond even has better advanced stats over Curry, let alone Klay hahahaha

You have zero argument there besides Klay shoots good i guess.

[Phoenix]

Relative to Kobe all he did was score. Kobe was the better shooter, scorer, defender, playmaker, closer and won rings without him. What did Shaq win without Kobe again??

You're expecting Shaq to be the better shooter/playmaker? Pretty dumb. That would be like arguing well Shaq's the better shotblocker and rebounder. Two different players playing two different positions with completely different skillsets and attributes.

[Phoenix]

Draymond even has better advanced stats over Curry, let alone Klay hahahaha

You have zero argument there besides Klay shoots good i guess.

Nay we went over this a few weeks ago discussing your precious VORP. Steph in 3 of the 4 runs had a higher one, because your dumb ass was then trying to argue that Steph was the sidekick, not Draymond. You're an absolutel moron if you think Draymond's play isn't a byproduct of playing alongside Steph, not the other way. Dude is a 8 point, 6 rebound 40% shooter on his own. Steph is a threat the moment he hits half-court and opens up the floor for 8ppg Draymond to be relevant hahahahahahaha.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You're expecting Shaq to be the better shooter/playmaker? Pretty dumb. That would be like arguing well Shaq's the better shotblocker and rebounder. Two different players playing two different positions with completely different skillsets and attributes.

Since you like 2001 spurs so much.

Lakers vs Spurs in 2001: Kobe 33PPG on 57% TS
Shaq 27PPG on 55% TS

Kobe also had the higher usage as well, he owns video game nerd Duncan.

In the 2002 series, Kobe once against outscored Shaq vs Spurs in playoffs.

The spurs in the 2000s were a joke until Manu came along as Robinson was washed up.

[Phoenix]

2001 had 20 year old tony parker who wasn't nearly as good as he was in 2008.

And 2008 was arguably peak Manu.

Duncan was still in his prime at 30 years old, are you claiming his prime was done by 2008? I guess Kawhi carried his grandpa ass by 2014 then, if he was already done by 2008.

Duncan's peak was done by 2008. No version of Duncan pre-2005 wouldn't have ceded the finals MVP to any version of Tony Parker.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nay we went over this a few weeks ago discussing your precious VORP. Steph in 3 of the 4 runs had a higher one, because your dumb ass was then trying to argue that Steph was the sidekick, not Draymond. You're an absolutel moron if you think Draymond's play isn't a byproduct of playing alongside Steph, not the other way. Dude is a 8 point, 6 rebound 40% shooter on his own. Steph is a threat the moment he hits half-court and opens up the floor for 8ppg Draymond to be relevant hahahahahahaha.

If it's as clear cut as you say it is, how come Steph didn't have higher VORP then Draymond in their 2016 finals run? That was their team at their 73 win peak supposedly. Also the advanced stat RAPTOR evaluates more on\off in their VORP stat and they say Draymond was always better then Curry in the playoffs outside of 2017.

Also go watch 2019 playoff series vs Rockets when Draymond was dominant and locking down Chris Paul, while Curry was humiliating himself and missing wide open layups.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan's peak was done by 2008. No version of Duncan pre-2005 wouldn't have ceded the finals MVP to any version of Tony Parker.

So Duncan's peak was done by 2004 is what you're claiming? Kobe eliminated him that season as well. Also Kawhi was able to win a championship with Duncan in 2014 which was 10 years after his peak? wow talk about a carry job.

[Phoenix]

Since you like 2001 spurs so much.

Lakers vs Spurs in 2001: Kobe 33PPG on 57% TS
Shaq 27PPG on 55% TS

Kobe also had the higher usage as well, he owns video game nerd Duncan.

In the 2002 series, Kobe once against outscored Shaq vs Spurs in playoffs.

The spurs in the 2000s were a joke until Manu came along as Robinson was washed up.

Kobe's 2001 Spurs backcourt opponent: Antonio Daniels

Shaq's 2001 Spurs frontcourt opponents: Duncan and Robinson

Care to post what Kobe did in the 2001 finals compared to Shaq? I can wait.

[Duderonomy]

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

The problem was Kobe and Shaq weren't peaked at the same time. 1999-2002 was Shaq's peak , 2006-09 was Kobe. Duncan might be overrated since the Spurs were solid after his peak years.

[Phoenix]

So Duncan's peak was done by 2004 is what you're claiming? Kobe eliminated him that season as well. Also Kawhi was able to win a championship with Duncan in 2014 which was 10 years after his peak? wow talk about a carry job.

Duncan had a planter Fasciitis injury in 2005, so while he was in his prime for a few seasons after that, his PEAK was done by 2008.

In the 2004 series that 'Kobe eliminated' Duncan as you say....Kobe was 26/6/6 on 53% TS. Shaq was 23/14/3/2 on 60% TS, and had better ORtg/DRtg and GmSc but yeah.....Kobe eliminated Duncan. How did Kobe do in the 2004 finals compared to Shaq, by the way?

Duncan was 15/10 in the 2014 finals. Kawhi wasn't even the leading scorer for the entire series, Tony was by a hair. Manu dropped 14 a game. Pretty much more of an ensemble effort with the Spurs shooting Miami out of the gym and the Heat beihng woeful defensively than Kawhi 'carrying' anyone.

[Phoenix]

If it's as clear cut as you say it is, how come Steph didn't have higher VORP then Draymond in their 2016 finals run? That was their team at their 73 win peak supposedly. Also the advanced stat RAPTOR evaluates more on\off in their VORP stat and they say Draymond was always better then Curry in the playoffs outside of 2017.

Also go watch 2019 playoff series vs Rockets when Draymond was dominant and locking down Chris Paul, while Curry was humiliating himself and missing wide open layups.

Maybe you should watch games instead of jerking off to advanced stats on basketball reference. Again....what Draymond is able to do BECAUSE of Steph's presence on the floor is one thing. What he can do WITHOUT Steph is something entirely different. Steph without Draymond would still be a 30ppg scorer with crazy efficiency. Draymond without Steph based on available evidence ........shouldn't be starting.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Duncan had a planter Fasciitis injury in 2005, so while he was in his prime for a few seasons after that, his PEAK was done by 2008.

In the 2004 series that 'Kobe eliminated' Duncan as you say....Kobe was 26/6/6 on 53% TS. Shaq was 23/14/3/2 on 60% TS, and had better ORtg/DRtg and GmSc but yeah.....Kobe eliminated Duncan. How did Kobe do in the 2004 finals compared to Shaq, by the way?

Duncan was 15/10 in the 2014 finals. Kawhi wasn't even the leading scorer for the entire series, Tony was by a hair. Manu dropped 14 a game. Pretty much more of an ensemble effort with the Spurs shooting Miami out of the gym and the Heat beihng woeful defensively than Kawhi 'carrying' anyone.

Duncan's peak was still in 2001 and Kobe destroyed him.

Duncan's prime was about 1998-2008 and Kobe destroyed him in 2008.

Not sure what else you want there.

In 2014 finals, the series was tied 1-1 and then Kawhi took over and dominated averaging 24PPG on 69% in 3 straight wins. While Duncan averaged 12PPG during the 3 game winning streak.

[ShawkFactory]

Since you like 2001 spurs so much.

Lakers vs Spurs in 2001: Kobe 33PPG on 57% TS
Shaq 27PPG on 55% TS

Kobe also had the higher usage as well, he owns video game nerd Duncan.

In the 2002 series, Kobe once against outscored Shaq vs Spurs in playoffs.

The spurs in the 2000s were a joke until Manu came along as Robinson was washed up.

If the 2000s Spurs were a joke then why does Kobe get credit in a head to head comparison with Duncan for winning most of those series?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Maybe you should watch games instead of jerking off to advanced stats on basketball reference. Again....what Draymond is able to do BECAUSE of Steph's presence on the floor is one thing. What he can do WITHOUT Steph is something entirely different. Steph without Draymond would still be a 30ppg scorer with crazy efficiency. Draymond without Steph based on available evidence ........shouldn't be starting.

Steph missing wide open layups in that 2019 2nd round series. Damn the way he was missing wide open layups was just making it so much easier on Draymond I guess.

2019 rockets vs warriors the west finals rematch from previous year: GmSC evaluates production

Curry GmSC: 14.6

Draymond GmSC: 15.3

He beat him in raw production as well. That was when Durant was out half the series and Draymond was the best player on the warriors. Then in 2016 finals run, Draymond led them in VORP. There's other advanced stats like Raptor's WAR that always said Draymond was better as well.

Curry has never won anything without Draymond.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If the 2000s Spurs were a joke then why does Kobe get credit in a head to head comparison with Duncan for winning most of those series?

because it was "peak" duncan according to Phoenix. I wasn't even trying to bring up that series anyway, i was talking about 2008 when Kobe butt****ed Duncan's ass despite 13PPG from Pau for the series. Kobe was scoring on Duncan easily that series like he was some highschool player.

[Phoenix]

Duncan's peak was still in 2001 and Kobe destroyed him.

Duncan's prime was about 1998-2008 and Kobe destroyed him in 2008.

Not sure what else you want there.

In 2014 finals, the series was tied 1-1 and then Kawhi took over and dominated averaging 24PPG on 69% in 3 straight wins. While Duncan averaged 12PPG during the 3 game winning streak.

You mean Kobe destroyed Antonio Daniels? Because that was the Spurs shooting guard. Shaq was being defended on the interior by Duncan and Robinson. If you can't figure out the difference there I don't know what else to tell ya.

Kawhi scorer 9 points in each of the first 2 games. Game 3 was his breakout with 29 points. A carryjob insinuates it was a one man job but these were the Spurs scorers for the series:

Parker 18ppg
Kawhi 17.8
Duncan 15.4
Manu 14.4

That's about as much of an 'share the load' offense as you can possibly get.

[Phoenix]

Steph missing wide open layups in that 2019 2nd round series. Damn the way he was missing wide open layups was just making it so much easier on Draymond I guess.

2019 rockets vs warriors the west finals rematch from previous year: GmSC evaluates production

Curry GmSC: 14.6

Draymond GmSC: 15.3

He beat him in raw production as well. That was when Durant was out half the series and Draymond was the best player on the warriors. Then in 2016 finals run, Draymond led them in VORP. There's other advanced stats like Raptor's WAR that always said Draymond was better as well.

Curry has never won anything without Draymond.

Remind me again what Draymond has won on his own? And remind what Dray's stats are last year when Steph was out? This argument is so regarded that Steph is the sidekick here, you should be institutionalized.

[ArbitraryWater]

Initially, I thought this was one of those debates where there isn’t a wrong answer.
But putting Kobe at 1 is definitely the wrong answer.

:oldlol:

Yeah.

Like there is no argument for Kobe.

Shaq has the much higher peak, and better longevity.

His 13 seasons from 92-05 cannot be matched by any 13 years of Kobe's.

[BarberSchool]

Love Shaq but his entire stretch of dominance was dependent on him being allowed to get away with offensive fouls in post ups.

And while Duncan is boringly great, his brilliance simply isn’t up near the level of Kobe or Shaq, despite being more efficient and a more versatile teammate.

Kobe was a less efficient, poorer performing, slightly taller and longer carbon copy of Michael Jordan. And while both Shaq & Duncan were more efficient and more important defensively, Kobe’s brilliance still outranks both:

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You mean Kobe destroyed Antonio Daniels? Because that was the Spurs shooting guard. Shaq was being defended on the interior by Duncan and Robinson. If you can't figure out the difference there I don't know what else to tell ya.

Kawhi scorer 9 points in each of the first 2 games. Game 3 was his breakout with 29 points. A carryjob insinuates it was a one man job but these were the Spurs scorers for the series:

Parker 18ppg
Kawhi 17.8
Duncan 15.4
Manu 14.4

That's about as much of an 'share the load' offense as you can possibly get.

Kobe put up better production then Shaq when eliminating spurs. Kobe eliminated Duncan in 4\5 years during the 2000s and even did it when Pau averaged 13PPG. Just about every series the lakers eliminated spurs, kobe was outproducing Shaq.

Kawhi was the one who busted open the series and dominated in the 3 straight wins, otherwise they would of lost like they did in 2013. Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG during the 3 game finals winning streak, that's a carry job.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Remind me again what Draymond has won on his own? And remind what Dray's stats are last year when Steph was out? This argument is so regarded that Steph is the sidekick here, you should be institutionalized.

Neither have won on their own, that's why you have to see who is better when they are together and it's Draymond for the reasons i already explained.

[ArbitraryWater]

There is no argument for Kobe.

Shaq has the much higher peak, and better longevity.

His 13 seasons from 92-05 cannot be matched by any 13 years of Kobe's.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

:oldlol:

Yeah.

Like there is no argument for Kobe.

Shaq has the much higher peak, and better longevity.

His 13 seasons from 92-05 cannot be matched by any 13 years of Kobe's.

Replaced with 0 playoff wins Pau Gasol and still just about the same results. How does that feel? Even Karl Anthony Towns has more playoff wins then Pau Gasol had before meeting Kobe hahahha.

Kobe took a dork with 0 playoff wins and pretty much made him his Shaq.

[ArbitraryWater]

Replaced with 0 playoff wins Pau Gasol and still just about the same results. How does that feel? Even Karl Anthony Towns has more playoff wins then Pau Gasol had before meeting Kobe hahahha.

Kobe took a dork with 0 playoff wins and pretty much made him his Shaq.


What are you trying to say?

Kobe is better than Shaq cause he won with Pau Gasol as sidekick?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

What are you trying to say?

Kobe is better than Shaq cause he won with Pau Gasol as sidekick?

That's exactly what i'm saying. He replaced Shaq with Pau and got the same exact results.

The only difference was they won 2 instead of 3 because Shaq played goofy ass Reggie Miller or Jason "Ben Simmons" Kidd. While Kobe ran into KG\Pierce\Allen who were a 2017 warriors type team.

Kobe beat the Duncan\Parker\Manu spurs 4-1 and that was without Shaq. What was Shaq's only finals performance again? oh yeah he got swept hahahha fatass

[Manny98]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

That's exactly what i'm saying. He replaced Shaq with Pau and got the same exact results.

The only difference was they won 2 instead of 3 because Shaq played goofy ass Reggie Miller or Jason "Ben Simmons" Kidd. While Kobe ran into KG\Pierce\Allen who were a 2017 warriors type team.

Kobe beat the Duncan\Parker\Manu spurs 4-1 and that was without Shaq. What was Shaq's only finals performance again? oh yeah he got swept hahahha fatass


You're entering a rabbit hole.

No one else won titles with Pau Gasol, so how many players is Kobe better than?

Is he the GOAT?

What exactly makes him better than Shaq, is the actual question.

As far as "replacing" Shaq and winning with him in place, a retarded statement since the teams were completely different playing during a completely different time against completely different opponents.

At the end of the day, Kobe was going through Melo and Billups and Nash and Stoudemire.. so lets calm it.

Almost every series' he had a better #2 and #3 than the opponents best player.

[ShawkFactory]

because it was "peak" duncan according to Phoenix. I wasn't even trying to bring up that series anyway, i was talking about 2008 when Kobe butt****ed Duncan's ass despite 13PPG from Pau for the series. Kobe was scoring on Duncan easily that series like he was some highschool player.

It was peak Duncan. But the cast, as you already stated, was a joke. Duncan has the series in 2003, Kobe has 2008 where you can make the actual argument that they respectively outplayed the other with a relatively even, or even underdog, playing field.

2001 and 2002 shouldn't even count. 2004 could have gone either way

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You're entering a rabbit hole.

No one else won titles with Pau Gasol, so how many players is Kobe better than?

Is he the GOAT?

What exactly makes him better than Shaq, is the actual question.

As far as "replacing" Shaq and winning with him in place, a retarded statement since the teams were completely different playing during a completely different time against completely different opponents.

At the end of the day, Kobe was going through Melo and Billups and Nash and Stoudemire.. so lets calm it.

Almost every series' he had a better #2 and #3 than the opponents best player.

How were they completely different? They had the same exact coach in Phil Jackson, same exact point guard in Derek Fisher. The rest were role players. You got replaced by Pau Gasol and similar results happened, that tells me that Kobe was the true best player between both of them. Shaq got Penny and never won shit, even though penny is just as good if not better then Pau.

[Phoenix]

Kobe put up better production then Shaq when eliminating spurs. Kobe eliminated Duncan in 4\5 years during the 2000s and even did it when Pau averaged 13PPG. Just about every series the lakers eliminated spurs, kobe was outproducing Shaq.

Kawhi was the one who busted open the series and dominated in the 3 straight wins, otherwise they would of lost like they did in 2013. Kawhi averaged 24PPG to Duncan's 12PPG during the 3 game finals winning streak, that's a carry job.

Kobe took more shots and scored more points in a situation where he wasn't being doubled on the inside by two all-time great interior defenders? Breaking news at 11. I'm not even arguing that Kobe wasn't great in that series, but it's asinine to act like the ideal strategy for the Lakers that series wouldn't have been to leverage Kobe on the perimeter versus forcing the issue with Shaq down low against the twin towers. Even in that situation, you act like Shaq dropping 27/13 on 54% shooting is bad.

Still waiting on Kobe's 2001 and 2004 finals stats compared to Shaqs....at your convenience.

You have literally no evidence that Kawhi scoring 29 in game 3 'busted the series open'. The Spurs went up 2-1, hardly insurmountable odds. Scoring 29 and then 20 and 22 will...you know...pump up the average to 24 in a 3 game sample size. if the Spurs 'needed' Kawhi to score like that to win, then why did they win game 1 by 15 points with Kawhi scoring 9 points? Hell in game 5 this was the Spurs scoring boxscore:

Kawhi 22
Manu 19
Patty Mills 17
Parker 16
Duncan 14

So scoring 3 more points than the 2nd guy is now a carry job, not even relative to Duncan but just in general? Interesting.

[warriorfan]

Nay we went over this a few weeks ago discussing your precious VORP. Steph in 3 of the 4 runs had a higher one, because your dumb ass was then trying to argue that Steph was the sidekick, not Draymond. You're an absolutel moron if you think Draymond's play isn't a byproduct of playing alongside Steph, not the other way. Dude is a 8 point, 6 rebound 40% shooter on his own. Steph is a threat the moment he hits half-court and opens up the floor for 8ppg Draymond to be relevant hahahahahahaha.

Brutal

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It was peak Duncan. But the cast, as you already stated, was a joke. Duncan has the series in 2003, Kobe has 2008 where you can make the actual argument that they respectively outplayed the other with a relatively even, or even underdog, playing field.

2001 and 2002 shouldn't even count. 2004 could have gone either way

2000s Kobe still has 4 out of 5 playoff series wins over Duncan at the end of the day and Kobe was always the leader in production. Then in 2008 he beat Duncan when Duncan had two hall of famers to Kobe's one hall of famer.

Sounds like Kobe definitely has the edge there. If Kobe can eliminate Duncan with a 13PPG sidekick in 2008, then what's duncan's excuse for losing in 2001\2002\2004??

[Phoenix]

Neither have won on their own, that's why you have to see who is better when they are together and it's Draymond for the reasons i already explained.

So what's the point of asking what did Steph win without Dray? It continues to elude you that if Dray literally ain't shit without Steph, while Steph would still be an HOF level talent without Dray....to see who the more important player in the equation is. You're being a trolling jackass but kudos to you for having me engage you this long.

[ShawkFactory]

2000s Kobe still has 4 out of 5 playoff series wins over Duncan at the end of the day and Kobe was always the leader in production. Then in 2008 he beat Duncan when Duncan had two hall of famers to Kobe's one hall of famer.

Sounds like Kobe definitely has the edge there. If Kobe can eliminate Duncan with a 13PPG sidekick in 2008, then what's duncan's excuse for losing in 2001\2002\2004??
So we're just gonna ignore all of the arguments as to why this is a stupid and lazy way to have this discussion and repeat it?

Bye :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe took more shots and scored more points in a situation where he wasn't being doubled on the inside by two all-time great interior defenders? Breaking news at 11. I'm not even arguing that Kobe wasn't great in that series, but it's asinine to act like the ideal strategy for the Lakers that series wouldn't have been to leverage Kobe on the perimeter versus forcing the issue with Shaq down low against the twin towers. Even in that situation, you act like Shaq dropping 27/13 on 54% shooting is bad.

Still waiting on Kobe's 2001 and 2004 finals stats compared to Shaqs....at your convenience.

You have literally no evidence that Kawhi scoring 29 in game 3 'busted the series open'. The Spurs went up 2-1, hardly insurmountable odds. Scoring 29 and then 20 and 22 will...you know...pump up the average to 24 in a 3 game sample size. if the Spurs 'needed' Kawhi to score like that to win, then why did they win game 1 by 15 points with Kawhi scoring 9 points? Hell in game 5 this was the Spurs scoring boxscore:

Kawhi 22
Manu 19
Patty Mills 17
Parker 16
Duncan 14

So scoring 3 more points than the 2nd guy is now a carry job, not even relative to Duncan but just in general? Interesting.

Kobe was the point guard who happens to also be the best scorer\shooter, so he was the best player. Who cares what happened in 2004 finals when he replaced you with Pau just 4 years later and was eliminating duncan\parker\manu all in their primes.

Kawhi\Duncan were the best players on that 2014 spurs team and the rest were role players. You look at the 3 game winning streak as what busted the series open, during that 3 game winning streak was when Kawhi doubled Duncan's PPG (24PPG vs 12PPG). So Kawhi played like a superstar during the 3 game winning streak and Duncan played like a role player.

[Phoenix]

It was peak Duncan. But the cast, as you already stated, was a joke. Duncan has the series in 2003, Kobe has 2008 where you can make the actual argument that they respectively outplayed the other with a relatively even, or even underdog, playing field.

2001 and 2002 shouldn't even count. 2004 could have gone either way

That's just it. Duncan in 2003 beat BOTH Shaq and Kobe who was pretty much at his apex as an overall player, with a 38 year old Admiral and young versions of Manu/Parker. Interesting how the little troll failed to mention that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

So we're just gonna ignore all of the arguments as to why this is a stupid and lazy way to have this discussion and repeat it?

Bye :lol

I didn't ignore the argument, i asked you a question that you ignored.


If Kobe can eliminate Duncan with a 13PPG sidekick in 2008, then what's duncan's excuse for losing in 2001\2002\2004??

[HBK_Kliq_2]

That's just it. Duncan in 2003 beat BOTH Shaq and Kobe who was pretty much at his apex as an overall player, with a 38 year old Admiral and young versions of Manu/Parker. Interesting how the little troll failed to mention that.

That was a fluke because Kobe was raping that year. It was a proven fluke because Duncan played terrible and lost the very next year.

[Phoenix]

Kobe was the point guard who happens to also be the best scorer\shooter, so he was the best player. Who cares what happened in 2004 finals when he replaced you with Pau just 4 years later and was eliminating duncan\parker\manu all in their primes.

Kawhi\Duncan were the best players on that 2014 spurs team and the rest were role players. You look at the 3 game winning streak as what busted the series open, during that 3 game winning streak was when Kawhi doubled Duncan's PPG (24PPG vs 12PPG). So Kawhi played like a superstar during the 3 game winning streak and Duncan played like a role player.

No no, there's no 'who cares what happens' when it doesn't fit your agenda. What are Kobe's 2001 and 2004 finals compared to Shaqs? You show your ass just by saying 'who cares'. Pretty much a white flag since Shaq was clearly THE dominant Laker in the 3peat finals and the 2004 finals. Kobe pretty much shot LA out of that series. There's a reason Kobe didn't win a finals MVP until his 6th finals appearance.

But as stated....while Kawhi outscored Duncan he had plenty of other scoring support in Mills/Manu/Parker. That's why it wasn't a carry job. A carry job is Duncan in 2003. You're having an orgasm off Kawhi scoring 29 points in game 3. Fact is the Heat were awful defensively and couldn't stop the Spurs for shit, not because Kawhi played at some all-time level. Dude was still a role player that year overall. The Heat were shit defensively and lacked offense especially with Wade being hobbled, that's why they lost, not because of Kawhi's otherwordly '24ppg' in games 3-5. The Spurs were going to win regardless.

[Phoenix]

That was a fluke because Kobe was raping that year. It was a proven fluke because Duncan played terrible and lost the very next year.

The rape incident went down the summer of 2003, so that had nothing to do with Duncan shitting on the Lakers in 2002/2003 playoffs. Nice try.

Also, in 2004 Shaq had a higher GmSc, ORtg and DRtg than Kobe so he contributed the most overall to the Lakers winning ( on top of that miracle shot by Fisher).

[ArbitraryWater]

How were they completely different? They had the same exact coach in Phil Jackson, same exact point guard in Derek Fisher. The rest were role players. You got replaced by Pau Gasol and similar results happened, that tells me that Kobe was the true best player between both of them. Shaq got Penny and never won shit, even though penny is just as good if not better then Pau.


Aka completely ****ing different :oldlol:


+ different opponents


You're not saying anything.


What made Kobe better than Shaq, precisely?


He didnt match him in his peak, not in his prime, and not for longevity.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No no, there's no 'who cares what happens' when it doesn't fit your agenda. What are Kobe's 2001 and 2004 finals compared to Shaqs? You show your ass just by saying 'who cares'. Pretty much a white flag since Shaq was clearly THE dominant Laker in the 3peat finals. There's a reason Kobe didn't win a finals MVP until his 6th finals appearance.

But as stated....while Kawhi outscored Duncan he had plenty of other scoring support in Mills/Manu/Parker. That's why it wasn't a carry job. A carry job is Duncan in 2003. You're having an orgasm off Kawhi scoring 29 points in game 3. Fact is the Heat were awful defensively and couldn't stop the Spurs for shit, not because Kawhi played at some all-time level. Dude was still a role player that year overall. The Heat were shit defensively and lacked offense especially with Wade being hobbled, that's why they lost, not because of Kawhi's otherwordly '24ppg' in games 3-5. The Spurs were going to win regardless.

What has Shaq ever won as the lead dog of his team when Kobe wasn't around? If you can answer that question, i will be happy to compare their finals in 2001\2004.

Mills\Parker\Manu were all role players. Kawhi\Duncan were the stars of the team and Kawhi doubled Duncan's PPG during that 3 game winning streak.

I don't think Duncan in 2003 was a carry job because he had Manu who was the difference maker, that's why he couldn't win shit in the 2000s without Manu.

2003 spurs best 2 man lineups:

Duncan\Manu + 21.9

Duncan\Rose +9.5

Duncan\Jackson +6.8

Duncan\Robinson +5.4


You notice the difference when Duncan is in there without Manu? They would of never won anything without papa Manu. Just 2 years later, Manu carried Duncan to a title as well.

[Phoenix]

Aka completely ****ing different :oldlol:


+ different opponents


You're not saying anything.


What made Kobe better than Shaq, precisely?


He didnt match him in his peak, not in his prime, and not for longevity.

He never does, really. Still trying to figure out who's alt it is.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Aka completely ****ing different :oldlol:


+ different opponents


You're not saying anything.


What made Kobe better than Shaq, precisely?


He didnt match him in his peak, not in his prime, and not for longevity.

Same coach, same point guard, same lead star. The difference was role players. That's your argument? role players?

The main difference was Shaq being replaced with Pau.

[ShawkFactory]

I didn't ignore the argument, i asked you a question that you ignored.

Because it's a bullshit and elementary question that falls in line with the lazy and stupid thinking that was highlighted earlier.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He never does, really. Still trying to figure out who's alt it is.

What did Shaq as the lead dog win without Kobe?

Why did Kobe eliminate prime Duncan\Manu\Parker easily 4-1 in 2008 despite a 13PPG sidekick?

If you can answer these two questions, we can discuss. Until then, stop replying because i'm starting to feel bad for how much i'm destroying you. The way I have your number is similar to how Kobe always had Duncan's number.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Because it's a bullshit and elementary question that falls in line with the lazy and stupid thinking that was highlighted earlier.

4\5 playoff series wins for Kobe and beat you with a 13PPG role player in 2008.

Don't know what else to say to you, other then Duncan should of stuck to swimming.

[ArbitraryWater]

Same coach, same point guard, same lead star. The difference was role players. That's your argument? role players?

The main difference was Shaq being replaced with Pau.

the point guard is a role player, the same lead star is the ****ing object at hand so he is not up to inclusion.


Are you ****ing retarded?

The whole team was swapped around except the PG role player.


And again, none of this is even relevant.


What makes Kobe better at basketball?

Shaq led more title teams, was more dominant, had better stats and advanced metrics...

[mehyaM24]

shaq>duncan>kobe.. shaq had the best peak & prime. you could debate whether the other 2 had greater longevity, but prime/peak play trumps that.


Until then, stop replying because i'm starting to feel bad for how much i'm destroying you. The way I have your number is similar to how Kobe always had Duncan's number.

hbk with no regard for human life lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

the point guard is a role player, the same lead star is the ****ing object at hand so he is not up to inclusion.


Are you ****ing retarded?

The whole team was swapped around except the PG role player.


And again, none of this is even relevant.


What makes Kobe better at basketball?

Shaq led more title teams, was more dominant, had better stats and advanced metrics...

Because Kobe won as the alpha without Shaq. While Shaq was a ringless fatass without Kobe, unless you count that 06 role player title from Shaq.

2001-2002 Lakers vs 2008\2010 lakers = Same backcourt and same head coach, sounds pretty damn similar to me. The only difference was role players like Horry\Odom were flipped around.

[ShawkFactory]

If we're going to be fair

Duncan's 2003 run: 28.4 PER, .279 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 3.2 VORP

Kawhi's 2019: 27.9 PER, .249 WS/48, 10.1 BPM, 3.1 VORP

Not watching basketball is so easy.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You lebron fans are the biggest hypocrites. Imagine if Scottie Pippen took a Pau Gasol level player and won multiple rings without him hahaahah you would kill 3ball and jordan for that.

Shaq is a BITCH without Kobe, never forgot that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

If we're going to be fair

Duncan's 2003 run: 28.4 PER, .279 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 3.2 VORP

Kawhi's 2019: 27.9 PER, .249 WS/48, 10.1 BPM, 3.1 VORP

Not watching basketball is so easy.

but Kawhi actually beat Giannis in the west finals, while Dirk was injured for half the series.

Also facing the warriors instead of the nets.

The context of Kawhi's stats are more impressive because he was playing far more difficult teams.

[Phoenix]

What has Shaq ever won as the lead dog of his team when Kobe wasn't around? If you can answer that question, i will be happy to compare their finals in 2001\2004.

Mills\Parker\Manu were all role players. Kawhi\Duncan were the stars of the team and Kawhi doubled Duncan's PPG during that 3 game winning streak.

I don't think Duncan in 2003 was a carry job because he had Manu who was the difference maker, that's why he couldn't win shit in the 2000s without Manu.

2003 spurs best 2 man lineups:

Duncan\Manu + 21.9

Duncan\Rose +9.5

Duncan\Jackson +6.8

Duncan\Robinson +5.4


You notice the difference when Duncan is in there without Manu? They would of never won anything without papa Manu. Just 2 years later, Manu carried Duncan to a title as well.

He didn't win a title but that's not relevant to the point of who was overall more important when they were playing together, is it? Between 2000 and 2002 you couldn't have replaced Shaq with any other center and won. There was not a single bigman who could replicate THAT kind of dominance. I'm confident in saying the Lakers AT LEAST win the 2000 title if you replaced 2000 Kobe with another elite wing that year, considering Kobe was still on the rise in 2000. Kobe had 'moments' in the 2000 finals and was solid in the other 2 finals but.....who has the finals MVPs? It's not an accident. Kobe played best against the Spurs but again, context.....which eludes you.....shows that the Lakers had an advantage having Kobe go to work on the Spurs perimeter guys while Shaq held his own against Duncan and Robinson....and then Shaq murked everyone in the finals when Kobe saw some actual competition at his spot ( in the form of 35 year old Reggie Miller and Iverson). Shaq actually saw alot more overall frontline competition in the 3peat than Kobe saw from the guard spot. Guys like Vince, Pierce, Ray, Tmac he never played against in those 2000-2002 playoffs. Literally Iverson was the only elite guard Kobe directly faced in the first 3peat....and Shaq dominated that series.

Kawhi himself in 2014 was a roleplayer who had a great 3 game stretch. Hell, a role player won finals MVP the very next year.

I like how you specify Duncan didn't win 'the 2000s' without Manu as a not so transparent attempt to get around the fact that Duncan's first title came before Manu was even in the league. Almost clever, but not quite.

[Phoenix]

What did Shaq as the lead dog win without Kobe?

Why did Kobe eliminate prime Duncan\Manu\Parker easily 4-1 in 2008 despite a 13PPG sidekick?

If you can answer these two questions, we can discuss. Until then, stop replying because i'm starting to feel bad for how much i'm destroying you. The way I have your number is similar to how Kobe always had Duncan's number.

I answered your question because I have no fear of doing so. Kobe in the 2001 and 2004 finals or shut the **** up. I asked you that several posts ago and you're putting conditions around whether you're going to answer. Just like last year when Kawhi got his shit pushed in by 7'1 Brian Windhorst and you refused to leave the board, you're a bitch.

[ShawkFactory]

but Kawhi actually beat Giannis in the west finals, while Dirk was injured for half the series.

Also facing the warriors instead of the nets.

The context of Kawhi's stats are more impressive because he was playing far more difficult teams.

The Spurs had to play the 3x defending champs, and two top 10 ten all time players :lol

For more context, Duncan had a 92 ORTG over that whole run. That's Ben Wallace level defense from a guy scoring 25 a game and leading the team in assists.

For more more context, go watch any of those games. He was doubled every time he touched the ball. I know you didn't watch then, but you should. Some of those WCSF and WCF games were dope.

[ArbitraryWater]

Because Kobe won as the alpha without Shaq. While Shaq was a ringless fatass without Kobe, unless you count that 06 role player title from Shaq.

2001-2002 Lakers vs 2008\2010 lakers = Same backcourt and same head coach, sounds pretty damn similar to me. The only difference was role players like Horry\Odom were flipped around.


This is all going into your analysis?

Like really?

Ask yourself if you're fit for this.


Where is all the VORP PER etc shit you like?

[Phoenix]

The Spurs had to play the 3x defending champs, and two top 10 ten all time players :lol

For more context, Duncan had a 92 ORTG over that whole run. That's Ben Wallace level defense from a guy scoring 25 a game and leading the team in assists.

For more more context, go watch any of those games. He was doubled every time he touched the ball. I know you didn't watch then, but you should. Some of those WCSF and WCF games were dope.

It's clear, because all of his talking points revolve around advanced stats. The internet has given every dumbass troll like this the ability to look on basketball reference and opinionate on shit they otherwise couldn't talk about.

[ShawkFactory]

It's clear, because all of his talking points revolve around advanced stats. The internet has given every dumbass troll like this the ability to look on basketball reference and opinionate on shit they otherwise couldn't talk about.

Yea I mean I wasn't around in the Jordan era but have watched a BUNCH of games from then. I still don't fully feel comfortable talking about it.

[Phoenix]

Yea I mean I wasn't around in the Jordan era but have watched a BUNCH of games from then. I still don't fully feel comfortable talking about it.

It's what it is. Hell I came at the backend of the Magic/Bird era so I can just about remember that. Forget talking 70's ball so I have to take the word of guys old enough to have watched AND appreciate what they were seeing. I don't talk about Russell, Oscar, Wilt, West, peak Alcindor/Kareem etc acting like basketball reference or bits and pieces of low def clips on youtube gives me grounds to argue with those who came along in that era.

[Phoenix]

You lebron fans are the biggest hypocrites. Imagine if Scottie Pippen took a Pau Gasol level player and won multiple rings without him hahaahah you would kill 3ball and jordan for that.

Shaq is a BITCH without Kobe, never forgot that.

Kobe 2001 and 2004 finals?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

This is all going into your analysis?

Like really?

Ask yourself if you're fit for this.


Where is all the VORP PER etc shit you like?

In 2001 playoffs: Kobe beat Shaq in VORP, win shares, DBPM

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe 2001 and 2004 finals?

As alpha of their teams:

Kobe finals wins without Shaq: 10

Shaq finals wins without Kobe: 0

Enough said, Kobe will forever be dancing on Shaq's grave.

[Phoenix]

As alpha of their teams:

Kobe finals wins without Shaq: 10

Shaq finals wins without Kobe: 0

Enough said, Kobe will forever be dancing on Shaq's grave.

Shaq finals MVPS alongside Kobe: 3

Kobe finals MVPs alongside Shaq: 0

Now answer my question bitch.

[LeCola]

One of those guys performed a quadruple double in NBA finals.

[And1AllDay]

kobe
duncan
shaq

[tpols]

That's just it. Duncan in 2003 beat BOTH Shaq and Kobe who was pretty much at his apex as an overall player, with a 38 year old Admiral and young versions of Manu/Parker. Interesting how the little troll failed to mention that.

You can only beat somebody almost every time. You can't win every time.

[tpols]

Kobe's 2001 Spurs backcourt opponent: Antonio Daniels

Shaq's 2001 Spurs frontcourt opponents: Duncan and Robinson

Care to post what Kobe did in the 2001 finals compared to Shaq? I can wait.

That's a troll. The video shows Kobe beating his man's and dunking on Duncan and Robinson. Why are you lying? Do we have to pull the tape?

[ShawkFactory]

You can only beat somebody almost every time. You can't win every time.

Bird beat Jordan in every single game they played against each other in the playoffs. So yes, you can win every time.

[Thenameless]

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Kobe

[FKAri]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

If someone were to rank Kobe over Duncan, I couldn't care less. Wouldn't agree but its not blaspheme or anything.

I agree with this. But Shaq's performance varies depending on the matchups. Duncan's the most stable.

[TAZORAC]

That's exactly what i'm saying. He replaced Shaq with Pau and got the same exact results.

The only difference was they won 2 instead of 3 because Shaq played goofy ass Reggie Miller or Jason "Ben Simmons" Kidd. While Kobe ran into KG\Pierce\Allen who were a 2017 warriors type team.

Kobe beat the Duncan\Parker\Manu spurs 4-1 and that was without Shaq. What was Shaq's only finals performance again? oh yeah he got swept hahahha fatass

Pau Gasol was a top 5 PF at the time...Andrew Bynum are probably the 2nd best center in the league at the time behind Dwight Howard.

Odom was an Olympian. Gasol was equal to Parker and Manu and Bynum wasn't far off.

[Phoenix]

You can only beat somebody almost every time. You can't win every time.

You don't ignore the fact that peak Shaq was on the team when talking about the Lakers winning in 2001 and 2002, and prime Shaq in 2004. You simply can't say 'Kobe eliminated Duncan in 2001' and act like Shaq was a bystander. Shaq during the 3peat had a baseline where he was dropping like 27 and 13 on 55% shooting regardless of the opponent, maxing out doing shit like 38 and 17 or 33 and 15 against Mutombo and fouling out frontlines which opened up the defense. Teams had to stack 3-4 big men just because you needed 18-24 fouls to put Shaq on the line or give up an automatic two if he was within 5 feet of the rim. Both you and HBK Klit argue in bad faith when it comes to Duncan and Shaq. Klits an obvious troll but you....you at least try to give the facade of trying to debate with a straight face.....unless its Kobe or Reggie.

Kobe has one victory as the lead dog on prime Duncan, 2008. At least when Duncan won in 2003, it was on Shaq AND Kobe both at or near the peak of their powers.

[Phoenix]

That's a troll. The video shows Kobe beating his man's and dunking on Duncan and Robinson. Why are you lying? Do we have to pull the tape?

Oh, so Duncan and Robinson changed positions to Shooting guard this series to defend Kobe on the perimeter? I know its Kobe, but you don't have to lose all sense of comprehension. Clearly I'm referring to the positional matchups. Yes, Duncan and Robinson got dunked on a few times because Kobe's defender out on the perimeter couldn't keep him out of the lane. But Robinson and Duncan were Shaqs man defenders since....you know.... Robinson was a center and Duncan was a Power Forward-Center. That really needed to be broken down?

I'm not even saying Kobe didnt outright ball that series. He did. The overall point I'm making, he had a greater advantage being directly ( I have to be specific with you since you like to play games) matched against the likes of Antonio Daniels and Sean Elliott than Shaq would have being directly defended by Robinson on the block with Duncan in the immediate vicinity. And you act like Shaq himself didn't do damage with his 27/13.

[ClipperRevival]

GOAT list: Duncan, Shaq, Kobe

Peak: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe

Hypothetical draft: Duncan, Shaq, Kobe

TD was impactful from the get go and put his team at or near championship level for 20 years. He wasn't flashy but he impacted the game on both ends. Much better and consistent defender than Shaq with noticeably better longevity. He just helped you win. I'll take winning over flash. Shaq had questionable dedication. As for Kobe, he takes a back seat to dominant bigs for me, especially given his lower efficiency. Perhaps in this era, his value is higher but still, give me a guy like TD who can control both ends.

[Stanley Kobrick]

You don't ignore the fact that peak Shaq was on the team when talking about the Lakers winning in 2001 and 2002, and prime Shaq in 2004. Kobe has one victory as the lead dog on Duncan, 2008. At least when Duncan won in 2003, it was on Shaq AND Kobe both at or near the peak of their powers.
yeah kobe dominating duncan is another one of those urban legends that slowly grew into fantasyland the longer time passes. kobe had a few good games vs the spurs, but shaq was always the heavy hitter in the paint battling with tim

[Phoenix]

yeah kobe dominating duncan is another one of those urban legends that slowly grew into fantasyland the longer time passes. kobe had a few good games vs the spurs, but shaq was always the heavy hitter in the paint battling with tim

Yep. Bear in mind that the comment above about Kobe beating his man and dunking on Robinson/Duncan....kinda makes my point. Kobe was getting past the perimeter defenders assigned to him( guys like aforementioned Antonio Daniels or Sean Elliott, not exactly defensive standouts) and Duncan and/or Robinson would have to basically slide over off Shaq to challenge Kobe. I mean, it's good basketball, but its being translated into 'Kobe dominated Duncan' on an individual level rather than the interior defenders getting caught trying to cover for his teammates. I dont know how one goes about arguing two players in this manner not matched up head to head anyway but this is ISH.

Shaq didn't lead the Lakers in scoring against the Spurs but what he did in every series was compromise the defense by putting the bigs in foul trouble. Duncan and Robinson averaged 4 fouls each in this series, I'm assuming it wasn't from defending Mark Madson.

[Sulico]

Well it's pretty easy.

Chips:
1. Kobe, Duncan - 5
2. Shaq - 4

MVP:
1. Duncan - 2
2. Kobe, Shaq - 1

Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 206.4
2. Shaq - 181.7
3. Kobe - 172.7

Playoff Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 37.8
2. Shaq - 31.1
3. Kobe - 28.3

Value Over Replacement Player:
1. Duncan - 91.1
2. Kobe - 80.1
3. Shaq - 75.5

All-League Honors:
1. Duncan - 31
2. Kobe - 28
3. Shaq - 18

You can argue for second place between Shaq and Kobe. While Shaq leads in more categories, and was generally more dominant player, Kobe got more rings and all-league awards, which is not a small deal.
But it is pretty clear that Duncan is number 1. There is nothing Shaq or Kobe have over him, other than appeal to the fans, which is probably important to your life and endorsements, but not to your legacy.
I like Kobe, and absolutely love Shaq, but no ubiased fan would ever place Duncan anywhere other than 1st place in this duscussion. And I always try my best to be unbiased.

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Shaq

[warriorfan]

Well it's pretty easy.

Chips:
1. Kobe, Duncan - 5
2. Shaq - 4

MVP:
1. Duncan - 2
2. Kobe, Shaq - 1

Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 206.4
2. Shaq - 181.7
3. Kobe - 172.7

Playoff Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 37.8
2. Shaq - 31.1
3. Kobe - 28.3

Value Over Replacement Player:
1. Duncan - 91.1
2. Kobe - 80.1
3. Shaq - 75.5

All-League Honors:
1. Duncan - 31
2. Kobe - 28
3. Shaq - 18

You can argue for second place between Shaq and Kobe. While Shaq leads in more categories, and was generally more dominant player, Kobe got more rings and all-league awards, which is not a small deal.
But it is pretty clear that Duncan is number 1. There is nothing Shaq or Kobe have over him, other than appeal to the fans, which is probably important to your life and endorsements, but not to your legacy.
I like Kobe, and absolutely love Shaq, but no ubiased fan would ever place Duncan anywhere other than 1st place in this duscussion. And I always try my best to be unbiased.

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Shaq

This list seems pretty legit by staying consistent with criteria.

[Phoenix]

Well it's pretty easy.

Chips:
1. Kobe, Duncan - 5
2. Shaq - 4

MVP:
1. Duncan - 2
2. Kobe, Shaq - 1

Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 206.4
2. Shaq - 181.7
3. Kobe - 172.7

Playoff Win Shares:
1. Duncan - 37.8
2. Shaq - 31.1
3. Kobe - 28.3

Value Over Replacement Player:
1. Duncan - 91.1
2. Kobe - 80.1
3. Shaq - 75.5

All-League Honors:
1. Duncan - 31
2. Kobe - 28
3. Shaq - 18

You can argue for second place between Shaq and Kobe. While Shaq leads in more categories, and was generally more dominant player, Kobe got more rings and all-league awards, which is not a small deal.
But it is pretty clear that Duncan is number 1. There is nothing Shaq or Kobe have over him, other than appeal to the fans, which is probably important to your life and endorsements, but not to your legacy.
I like Kobe, and absolutely love Shaq, but no ubiased fan would ever place Duncan anywhere other than 1st place in this duscussion. And I always try my best to be unbiased.

1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Shaq

Compelling arguments for Duncan here. I still like Shaqs peak dominance, but as I said earlier I completely understand arguments for Duncan especially when they're framed as you have done.

[miggyme1]

Shaq had the greatest peak? In what universe? Anybody that ever played a sport or been around athletes will tell u shaq underachieved. Had he stayed at his orlando weight shaq would of won more rings than bill russell......EASILY. Shaq was a guard/wing in a centers body in orlando......he was basically a retro WILT....wilt maybe was a little bit stronger. He got to LA and got so slow and sluggish he relied on his size to dominate the league instead of the gifts that would of made him the greatest center of all time.

Kobe had the greatest peak because he was basically the leader of a franchise from 2004-2016.....i know I know those last few years were horrible but even in his last “BONAFIDE STAR” season (2012-2013) he was still a top 10 player in the league. Thats a 9 year stretch of him being the best player on a team without anyone else on the team being close to his talent or skill level.....and pau was not on kobes level so please dont say he was.

[Phoenix]

Shaqs 2000-2002 peak( as in the absolute apex of his oncourt dominance) ecplised Kobes. It just did and while we can argue all day long about the overall quality of their careers, Shaqs PEAK is up there in the top 5 of all time. I do agree that he had the potential to be even better had he stayed in his Orlando shape. Actually I'll flat out say that he'd have been the GOAT had that occurred. I don't know about more rings than Russell, the league hasn't been set up for a player to do that since the 60s. But he should have at least equalled MJs ring and MVP count, and had greater career totals by being injured less frequently due to the excess he carried on the back nine of his career. Shaq should have been comfortably a member of the 30k points club and that's including all the freebies he gave up being a shit free throw shooter

[Thenameless]

Shaqs 2000-2002 peak( as in the absolute apex of his oncourt dominance) ecplised Kobes. It just did and while we can argue all day long about the overall quality of their careers, Shaqs PEAK is up there in the top 5 of all time. I do agree that he had the potential to be even better had he stayed in his Orlando shape. Actually I'll flat out say that he'd have been the GOAT had that occurred. I don't know about more rings than Russell, the league hasn't been set up for a player to do that since the 60s. But he should have at least equalled MJs ring and MVP count, and had greater career totals by being injured less frequently due to the excess he carried on the back nine of his career. Shaq should have been comfortably a member of the 30k points club and that's including all the freebies he gave up being a shit free throw shooter

Yes, Shaq had the highest peak of the three.

[Sportal]

I find it hard to put Kobe over Shaq, there is a lot more resistance for me to do that... And I just don't feel strongly about Kobe vs Duncan, I can see why people would put either of those players above each other. I just would not put them above Shaq.

If I were to suggest that, in the future, if we were to see a player emerge that had the talent level/likeness of any of these 3 players... I think the least likeliest to happen would be another Shaq level player, and I think the most likeliest is Kobe... I think another Duncan would absolutely kill it in this league, especially if that player had great range... So I guess with that thinking...

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[LAL]

Kobe is the second best player ever behind Michael Jordan.
Bronsexuals trying too hard in this thread.

[Sulico]

Kobe is the second best player ever behind Michael Jordan.
Bronsexuals trying too hard in this thread.

What is his case over Duncan exactly?

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq had the greatest peak? In what universe? Anybody that ever played a sport or been around athletes will tell u shaq underachieved. Had he stayed at his orlando weight shaq would of won more rings than bill russell......EASILY. Shaq was a guard/wing in a centers body in orlando......he was basically a retro WILT....wilt maybe was a little bit stronger. He got to LA and got so slow and sluggish he relied on his size to dominate the league instead of the gifts that would of made him the greatest center of all time.

Kobe had the greatest peak because he was basically the leader of a franchise from 2004-2016.....i know I know those last few years were horrible but even in his last “BONAFIDE STAR” season (2012-2013) he was still a top 10 player in the league. Thats a 9 year stretch of him being the best player on a team without anyone else on the team being close to his talent or skill level.....and pau was not on kobes level so please dont say he was.

https://i.gyazo.com/19fda60b1dc0dfc4a9832cdb7baa64b2.png

[ImKobe]

What is his case over Duncan exactly?

Beat Duncan 4 - 1 in the POs in the 2000s, won as many rings in a less stable situation with his peak also being wasted on the worst supporting cast in the league. Needed just Gasol and some quality role players to go 3 straight Finals and win B2B, something Duncan never did with all the talent he had in San Antonio, from D-Rob to Manu & TP to Kawhi.

[Shooter]

Duncan
Shaq
•
•
•
Kobe

[ShawkFactory]

Beat Duncan 4 - 1 in the POs in the 2000s, won as many rings in a less stable situation with his peak also being wasted on the worst supporting cast in the league. Needed just Gasol and some quality role players to go 3 straight Finals and win B2B, something Duncan never did with all the talent he had in San Antonio, from D-Rob to Manu & TP to Kawhi.
To beat who, exactly? Context matters.

A good #2 and quality role players was all that was required at the time.

[ImKobe]

To beat who, exactly? Context matters.

A good #2 and quality role players was all that was required at the time.

To beat Duncan? Boston? Magic? Lakers stomped the Spurs out in 5 games with Gasol averaging 14 ppg on sub-par efficiency.

This is what I hate about discussions these days, I'm arguing with people who weren't even around to see it. Kobe dominated Duncan, he got past Bowen/Manu and finished over Duncan over & over again in crunch time, they couldn't stop him. That was the story of Kobe vs. Spurs in all 5 match-ups that decade, he'd break down their perimeter defenders and Duncan couldn't stop him at the rim.

[ImKobe]

https://youtu.be/5aXVxcLm2qQ

He ABUSED Timmy routinely in the biggest moments.

[tpols]

https://youtu.be/5aXVxcLm2qQ

He ABUSED Timmy routinely in the biggest moments.

Duncan was never even close to the crunchtime player Kobe was. That's why I referenced his takeover ceiling being much higher, and also why he beat him H2H. Duncan also doesnt get enough flak for leading us to bronze medals internationally. His own teammate Manu eviscerated him on the world stage in 2004, and people act like he was a scrub in 2003. I guess in 1 years time he went from ass to superstar.

[ShawkFactory]

To beat Duncan? Hello? Lakers stomped the Spurs out in 5 games with Gasol averaging 14 ppg on sub-par efficiency.

This is what I hate about discussions these days, I'm arguing with people who weren't even around to see it. Kobe dominated Duncan, he got past Bowen/Manu and finished over Duncan over & over again in crunch time, they couldn't stop him. That was the story of Kobe vs. Spurs in all 5 match-ups that decade, he'd break down their perimeter defenders and Duncan couldn't stop him at the rim.
What the fvck are you talking about?? Yes, I remember. I remember when Duncan dominated the lakers in both 2002 and 2003. So I certainly remember 2008. Literally in this thread I called that series the best of Kobe's career. One great series doesn't make his career better though.

And this is the thing that I hate..you have reasonable people making reasonable arguments and then the Kobe people going "4-1 in playoffs!". You're not discussing basketball.

Saying shit like he won as many rings in a less stable situation. Less stable situation? Like, what the actual fvck does that even mean.

If I have to hear "Kobe won with just Gasol and great role players" one more time I'm going to lose it. The Lakers had by far the best supporting cast for their best player in the league for those 3 years, other than the Celtics. And if it weren't for Garnett's injury in 09 we're probably looking at the Celtics going 2-1. Can't say that for sure but they were the best team. You know that too.

Additionally..you cite Pau having that subpar series in 2008. Why do you think that is? I wonder who the other teams PF was. Is Duncan supposed to shut down Gasol and Kobe? Makes no sense.

I'm not even saying Duncan > Kobe btw. Some of you guys' arguments are just annoying.

[Airupthere]

What the fvck are you talking about?? Yes, I remember. I remember when Duncan dominated the lakers in both 2002 and 2003. So I certainly remember 2008. Literally in this thread I called that series the best of Kobe's career. One great series doesn't make his career better though.

And this is the thing that I hate..you have reasonable people making reasonable arguments and then the Kobe people going "4-1 in playoffs!". You're not discussing basketball.

Saying shit like he won as many rings in a less stable situation. Less stable situation? Like, what the actual fvck does that even mean.

If I have to hear "Kobe won with just Gasol and great role players" one more time I'm going to lose it. The Lakers had by far the best supporting cast for their best player in the league for those 3 years, other than the Celtics. And if it weren't for Garnett's injury in 09 we're probably looking at the Celtics going 2-1. Can't say that for sure but they were the best team. You know that too.

Additionally..you cite Pau having that subpar series in 2008. Why do you think that is? I wonder who the other teams PF was. Is Duncan supposed to shut down Gasol and Kobe? Makes no sense.

I'm not even saying Duncan > Kobe btw. Some of you guys' arguments are just annoying.

Have a glass of water

[Sulico]

Beat Duncan 4 - 1 in the POs in the 2000s, won as many rings in a less stable situation with his peak also being wasted on the worst supporting cast in the league. Needed just Gasol and some quality role players to go 3 straight Finals and win B2B, something Duncan never did with all the talent he had in San Antonio, from D-Rob to Manu & TP to Kawhi.

If they met in a series every year of 2000's Duncan would have beat Kobe, it's not his fault Kobe didn't get to PO's a lot. And not his fault that Kobe had more unstable situation.

Duncan produced more stats, got more accolades, won more games in RS or PO. Your feelings can lie, numbers can't.

[tpols]

The Lakers had by far the best supporting cast for their best player in the league for those 3 years, other than the Celtics.


And they BEAT the Celtics lmao. What are you crying about?

[ShawkFactory]

And they BEAT the Celtics lmao. What are you crying about?

We’re ignoring that the Celtics in all probably would have been 2-1 against them?

And apparently we’re also ignoring what I’m actually saying. That wasn’t some ragtag lame duck squad that Kobe led to the promise land. That’s all. No one is crying.

You’re really good at ignoring entire posts and picking out one thing and criticizing it completely out of context.

[ImKobe]

What the fvck are you talking about?? Yes, I remember. I remember when Duncan dominated the lakers in both 2002 and 2003. So I certainly remember 2008. Literally in this thread I called that series the best of Kobe's career. One great series doesn't make his career better though.

And this is the thing that I hate..you have reasonable people making reasonable arguments and then the Kobe people going "4-1 in playoffs!". You're not discussing basketball.

Saying shit like he won as many rings in a less stable situation. Less stable situation? Like, what the actual fvck does that even mean.

If I have to hear "Kobe won with just Gasol and great role players" one more time I'm going to lose it. The Lakers had by far the best supporting cast for their best player in the league for those 3 years, other than the Celtics. And if it weren't for Garnett's injury in 09 we're probably looking at the Celtics going 2-1. Can't say that for sure but they were the best team. You know that too.

Additionally..you cite Pau having that subpar series in 2008. Why do you think that is? I wonder who the other teams PF was. Is Duncan supposed to shut down Gasol and Kobe? Makes no sense.

I'm not even saying Duncan > Kobe btw. Some of you guys' arguments are just annoying.

2002? He didn't dominate shit. He folded like a damn lawn chair in 4th quarters and lost in 5 games. The **** are you on about? Horry doesn't miss that wide open 3 and we're talking about one of the greatest 4th quarter collapses of all-time in '03 as well, and the Lakers go up 3 - 2 and probably win one of the remaining 2 games, that miss was a back-breaker for the Lakers.

The H2H record matters, the play in those close games MATTER. Spurs consistently got outplayed when the games were in the balance late, because Kobe was the superior offensive player. Go look at Duncan's offensive numbers in the 4th quarters in close games.

This is why you don't just look up the averages to make your argument. Example: Game 5 of the 2002 WCSF. Wow, Duncan had 34/25/4, he was amazing and outplayed everyone, right? Wrong. He had 5 points 4 rebounds on 2/6 FG in a close game in the 4th quarter, Kobe had 10 on 4/7 FG, hit the go-ahead shot and the FTs to ice the game and eliminated his ass. Tony Parker and Antonio Daniels were their leading scorers in the 4th. Spurs were up to start the 4th in 3 out of 5 games of that series and Lakers were up by 1 and 3 in the other games, and Spurs lost every single 4th quarter.


Duncan just isn't in Kobe's class, anyone who watched those Playoff series & all the close games knows this, one guy came through consistently and willed his team to wins from behind while the other folded when it counted.

[ajay2s]

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[ShawkFactory]

2002? He didn't dominate shit. He folded like a damn lawn chair in 4th quarters and lost in 5 games. The **** are you on about? Horry doesn't miss that wide open 3 and we're talking about one of the greatest 4th quarter collapses of all-time in '03, and the Lakers go up 3 - 2 and probably win one of the remaining 2 games, that miss was a back-breaker for the Lakers.

The H2H record matters, the play in those close games MATTER. Spurs consistently got outplayed when the games were in the balance late, because Kobe was the superior offensive player. Go look at Duncan's offensive numbers in the 4th quarters in close games.

This is why you don't just look up the averages to make your argument. Example: Game 5 of the 2002 WCSF. Wow, Duncan had 34/25/4, he was amazing and outplayed everyone, right? Wrong. He had 5 points 4 rebounds on 2/6 FG in a close game in the 4th quarter, Kobe had 10 on 4/7 FG, hit the go-ahead shot and the FTs to ice the game and eliminated his ass. Tony Parker and Antonio Daniels were their leading scorers in the 4th. Spurs were up to start the 4th in 3 out of 5 games of that series and Lakers were up by 1 and 3 in the other games, and Spurs lost every single 4th quarter.


Duncan just isn't in Kobe's class, anyone who watched those Playoff series & all the close games knows this, one guy came through consistently and willed his team to wins from behind while the other folded when it counted.

Here’s the actual issue: we’re discussing 3 all time greats in this thread, right? We have fans of, let’s call him player 1, here claiming that he’s better than player 2 because his team won 4 of 5 playoff series against his team. This is despite that fact that player 1 played with player 3 for four of those five series. In those series, players 2 and 3 actually played directly against one another on both ends, with player 2 getting the better of him multiple times.

Isn’t that stupid? 2 of the 3 guys in discussion here played together for most of these matchups. Like...what?

In 2002 Duncan completely outplayed Shaq. That happened. That his team lost in 5 is irrelevant in a Kobe vs Duncan discussion.

Stating that Duncan isn’t in Kobe’s class tells one all they need to know about your basketball values. The type who thinks Kyrie is better than Anthony Davis or that Iverson was better than Garnett.

[tpols]

We’re ignoring that the Celtics in all probably would have been 2-1 against them?

And apparently we’re also ignoring what I’m actually saying. That wasn’t some ragtag lame duck squad that Kobe led to the promise land. That’s all. No one is crying.

You’re really good at ignoring entire posts and picking out one thing and criticizing it completely out of context.

We dont live in a hypothetical fantasy world. Kobe fans deal in reality. Lakers beat the Celtics, and got the last word. Your other statement was not true either. The suns, celtics and spurs outside Nash, Garnett, and Duncan were all equal or better than the Lakers supporting cast. Lebrons 60+ win teams and the nuggets are in consideration as well. If you swapped Kobe and Melo Denver would've won because the series was close and Kobe big time outplayed peak Melo when he was good.

[ShawkFactory]

We dont live in a hypothetical fantasy world. Kobe fans deal in reality. Lakers beat the Celtics, and got the last word. Your other statement was not true either. The suns, celtics and spurs outside Nash, Garnett, and Duncan were all equal or better than the Lakers supporting cast. Lebrons 60+ win teams and the nuggets are in consideration as well. If you swapped Kobe and Melo Denver would've won because the series was close and Kobe big time outplayed peak Melo when he was good.

:lol

[rmt]

2002? He didn't dominate shit. He folded like a damn lawn chair in 4th quarters and lost in 5 games. The **** are you on about? Horry doesn't miss that wide open 3 and we're talking about one of the greatest 4th quarter collapses of all-time in '03 as well, and the Lakers go up 3 - 2 and probably win one of the remaining 2 games, that miss was a back-breaker for the Lakers.

The H2H record matters, the play in those close games MATTER. Spurs consistently got outplayed when the games were in the balance late, because Kobe was the superior offensive player. Go look at Duncan's offensive numbers in the 4th quarters in close games.

This is why you don't just look up the averages to make your argument. Example: Game 5 of the 2002 WCSF. Wow, Duncan had 34/25/4, he was amazing and outplayed everyone, right? Wrong. He had 5 points 4 rebounds on 2/6 FG in a close game in the 4th quarter, Kobe had 10 on 4/7 FG, hit the go-ahead shot and the FTs to ice the game and eliminated his ass. Tony Parker and Antonio Daniels were their leading scorers in the 4th. Spurs were up to start the 4th in 3 out of 5 games of that series and Lakers were up by 1 and 3 in the other games, and Spurs lost every single 4th quarter.


Duncan just isn't in Kobe's class, anyone who watched those Playoff series & all the close games knows this, one guy came through consistently and willed his team to wins from behind while the other folded when it counted.

When someone exaggerates to this extent, he loses credibility. We're talking about three top 10 players here. People can argue their favorite but to say they aren't in the same class? smh

[ArbitraryWater]

The Lakers had by far the best supporting cast of any top 5 player from 2008-2010

By far.

Ansd top 5 players win in this league.


And they sketched out in 2010, too. Refs won that one.

[rmt]

Duncan just isn't in Kobe's class, anyone who watched those Playoff series & all the close games knows this, one guy came through consistently and willed his team to wins from behind while the other folded when it counted.

I watched those playoff series and all the close games and I think the complete opposite of you BUT I don't assume that people think what I think or KNOW this.

[ImKobe]

I watched those playoff series and all the close games and I think the complete opposite of you BUT I don't assume that people think what I think or KNOW this.

Oh yeah, why did your team blow so many 4th quarters against Kobe then? Y'all were up 18 points in the 4th and needed Horry's 3 to rim out to save your ass from another embarrassing loss, I wholeheartedly believe that the Lakers 4-Peat if that shot goes in.

[rmt]

Oh yeah, why did your team blow so many 4th quarters against Kobe then? Y'all were up 18 points in the 4th and needed Horry's 3 to rim out to save your ass from another embarrassing loss, I wholeheartedly believe that the Lakers 4-Peat if that shot goes in.

I could just as easily say that the Spurs would have 5-peated IF Fisher's .4 shot goes out and IF Manu doesn't foul Dirk in '06. It doesn't matter what you believe or IFs - only what actually happened.

Almost the whole of 2002-03 Spurs season was building up big leads only to melt down in 4th quarters - because Parker was 20 years old, Manu was a rookie plus his normal craziness and SJax was volatile - other than TD, they were young, inexperienced and immature players.

[ImKobe]

I could just as easily say that the Spurs would have 5-peated IF Fisher's .4 shot goes out and IF Manu doesn't foul Dirk in '06. It doesn't matter what you believe or IFs - only what actually happened.

Almost the whole of 2002-03 Spurs season was building up big leads only to melt down in 4th quarters - because Parker was 20 years old, Manu was a rookie plus his normal craziness and SJax was volatile - other than TD, they were young, inexperienced and immature players.

You had the luckiest run to a chip ever in '03. Horry misses every single shot for the Lakers, Dirk gets injured in the WCF and a 37 y.o Kerr, who hadn't played much all season, comes off the bench and hits three 3s and the Spurs have a 34 - 9 4th quarter in one of the best comeback wins ever.

Horry also saved your ass in '05 Finals, when Timmy choked at the FT line in Game 5. He missed 6 out of 7 FTs and the tip-in to win the game, he even 2-handed it and had no one contesting him.
I guess it goes both ways for the Spurs & Lakers in terms of luck.


When someone exaggerates to this extent, he loses credibility. We're talking about three top 10 players here. People can argue their favorite but to say they aren't in the same class? smh

That's just my opinion. Kobe's one level ahead. He played in the toughest era for perimeter players, while Duncan was drafted at the perfect time for big men, the pace was as slow as ever and the games were low-scoring, which is why the Spurs were contenders every year. Manu & Parker hit their primes as Duncan started aging and then they pull Kawhi from the Pacers for George Hill, which put them in a position to win more titles. If it's the post-2004 era we're talking about, Kobe's a more valuable player to have with his skillset.

[ThatCoolKid]

1) Duncan
2) Shaq
3) Kobe

[kawhileonard2]

1) Duncan
2) Shaq
3) Kobe

If the case Lebron is 4th.

[Chick Stern]

Duncan’s final shot
https://vine.co/v/i2wQ9tpAQEz/embed/simple

Kobe’s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2inwUj_F0

enuf said

[rmt]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[ArbitraryWater]

Shaq
Duncan
Curry
Dirk
Kobe
KD
etc