Isn't Jordan clearly the better defender than Lebron?

[theman93]

I think often times fans get caught up on the offensive side of the ball while overlooking defense. However defense is half of the game and shouldn't be so easily overlooked. As I was comparing Jordan and Lebron on the defensive side of the ball, it seemed clear to me Jordan was easily better on that end.

DPOY - Jordan: 1 | Lebron: 0

All-Defensive Teams - Jordan: 9 | Lebron: 6

DRB/g - Jordan: 4.7 | Lebron: 6.3

DRB % - Jordan 14.1 | Lebron: 18.6

STL/g - Jordan: 2.3 | Lebron: 1.6

STL % - Jordan: 3.1 | Lebron 2.1

BLK/g - Jordan: 0.8 | Lebron: 0.7

BLK % - Jordan: 1.4 | Lebron: 1.6

DRTG - Jordan: 103 | Lebron: 104

DWS/yr - Jordan: 4.27 | Lebron: 4.07

DBPM - Jordan: 2.0 | Lebron: 1.8

Isn't it pretty clear Jordan was easily the better defender considering the fact that he's the much more decorated defender while also being superior both analytically and statistically? If the answer is yes (I think it clearly is) then doesn't that mean Jordan is better at half of the game with just the offensive side of the ball to be argued?

[Axe]

Excuse me sir but do you happen to know TheMan huh op?

[Manny98]

Jordan was the more consistent defender

But 2012-2013 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was

[AlternativeAcc.]

Those numbers clearly prove lebron was the far and away better defender

Throw lebron in the 90s, and we his numbers significantly better than Jordan's

The fact they're even numbers wise speaks volumes for how much better lebron is, despite playing against much better players and offenses

Jesus christ, I knew lebron was better but didn't know it wasn't even close

[1987_Lakers]

I'll take 2012 LeBron as a defender over any version of MJ.

[ImKobe]

Jordan was better on-ball and better as a help defender. Better shot-blocker too. Not sure what Lebron has on him, other than defensive rebounds.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan was better on-ball and better as a help defender. Better shot-blocker too. Not sure what Lebron has on him, other than defensive rebounds.

Help defense is arguable, I'll take prime LeBron in that department. LeBron can guard every position on the court if asked to, & can rim protect at a higher level than MJ.

[8Ball]

LeBron is by far the more versatile defender.

Those stats don't incorporate LeBron being able to switch on modern centers. Jordan can't do that.

[TheCorporation]

Playoff DefRating 100 and under (and win FMVP)

LeBron: 2x (2012, 2016)
Jordan: 0x :(

Next

:hammertime:

[GrayGoat]

Point guard to center LeBron guards it all

[Axe]

DRTG - Jordan: 103 | Lebron: 104
103 is also higher than 104?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-157f7cf0829e0d81af460e3c6b47c4a4

[theman93]

103 is also higher than 104?

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-157f7cf0829e0d81af460e3c6b47c4a4

Do you not know how DRTG is calculated?

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I think often times fans get caught up on the offensive side of the ball while overlooking defense. However defense is half of the game and shouldn't be so easily overlooked. As I was comparing Jordan and Lebron on the defensive side of the ball, it seemed clear to me Jordan was easily better on that end.

DPOY - Jordan: 1 | Lebron: 0

All-Defensive Teams - Jordan: 9 | Lebron: 6

DRB/g - Jordan: 4.7 | Lebron: 6.3

DRB % - Jordan 14.1 | Lebron: 18.6

STL/g - Jordan: 2.3 | Lebron: 1.6

STL % - Jordan: 3.1 | Lebron 2.1

BLK/g - Jordan: 0.8 | Lebron: 0.7

BLK % - Jordan: 1.4 | Lebron: 1.6

DRTG - Jordan: 103 | Lebron: 104

DWS/yr - Jordan: 4.27 | Lebron: 4.07

DBPM - Jordan: 2.0 | Lebron: 1.8

Isn't it pretty clear Jordan was easily the better defender considering the fact that he's the much more decorated defender while also being superior both analytically and statistically? If the answer is yes (I think it clearly is) then doesn't that mean Jordan is better at half of the game with just the offensive side of the ball to be argued?

If a player is not able to defend J.J. Barea he should never even be mentioned on the defensive side of the ball.

J.J.

[Spurs m8]

They don't call him LeSiv for nothing

[TheCorporation]

Playoff DefRating 100 and under (and win FMVP)

LeBron: 2x (2012, 2016)
Jordan: 0x :(

Next

:hammertime:

Guys?

[Spurs m8]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/817dba12c7bc34e08310992006feabf6/tenor.gif?itemid=16539448

[DABIGSALSISHA]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/817dba12c7bc34e08310992006feabf6/tenor.gif?itemid=16539448

hahahahhahahahahaahahaha

Guy doesn't know what defense is since day 1. Pathetic.

[Airupthere]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/817dba12c7bc34e08310992006feabf6/tenor.gif?itemid=16539448

Hart even beat him to it and no one had to push Hart lol :oldlol:

I'm surprised Lebron didn't flop on that one.

[999Guy]

Jordan was better on-ball and better as a help defender. Better shot-blocker too. Not sure what Lebron has on him, other than defensive rebounds.

He was not better as a help defender are you out of your mind?

And not even as a man defender but that’s at least a popular myth.

Literally how could he be better as a help guy? What is it the gambling tunnel vision? The absolute lack of strength to contain rim shots and rim protect in general? The worse help defensive awareness and communication?

LeBron shut down fast break offense in his first two MVP and sealed a title with a chase down block and in general scared GS out of transition. But somehow falls short of MJ on help D...

[LAmbruh]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wsXIF4YX9hJ2zoSgpS/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/aAOP7dLo3E4d3L8Hmr/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/CuANwxeXOHEHjPOhHo/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/5iZhOMDjMUcI3KjLbc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/TyxdRVf2oXc9X6NVME/giphy.gif

[Bronbron23]

I think often times fans get caught up on the offensive side of the ball while overlooking defense. However defense is half of the game and shouldn't be so easily overlooked. As I was comparing Jordan and Lebron on the defensive side of the ball, it seemed clear to me Jordan was easily better on that end.

DPOY - Jordan: 1 | Lebron: 0

All-Defensive Teams - Jordan: 9 | Lebron: 6

DRB/g - Jordan: 4.7 | Lebron: 6.3

DRB % - Jordan 14.1 | Lebron: 18.6

STL/g - Jordan: 2.3 | Lebron: 1.6

STL % - Jordan: 3.1 | Lebron 2.1

BLK/g - Jordan: 0.8 | Lebron: 0.7

BLK % - Jordan: 1.4 | Lebron: 1.6

DRTG - Jordan: 103 | Lebron: 104

DWS/yr - Jordan: 4.27 | Lebron: 4.07

DBPM - Jordan: 2.0 | Lebron: 1.8

Isn't it pretty clear Jordan was easily the better defender considering the fact that he's the much more decorated defender while also being superior both analytically and statistically? If the answer is yes (I think it clearly is) then doesn't that mean Jordan is better at half of the game with just the offensive side of the ball to be argued?

It's close. Career wise gotta go with mj because of his accolades and achievements. Bron at his peak was as good as mj though. Even now in spurts he's one of the best defenders in the league.

[scuzzy]

The luxury of your primary direct playoff opposition being Danny Ainge, Craig Ehlo and Jeff Hornacek


Unfortunately Lebron exists in an era where Paul Pierce, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, etc, etc are standard protocol :applause:

[theman93]

LeBron shut down fast break offense in his first two MVP and sealed a title with a chase down block and in general scared GS out of transition. But somehow falls short of MJ on help D...

No doubt the chase down block against Iguodala was great, but that far from sealed the title.

And even for as great of a defensive play that was, it isn’t somehow better than Jordan’s steal against Malone in 1998. I’d argue Jordan’s steal was better than Lebron’s block since it came with only 20 seconds left and down 1. Chicago needed to get a stop or the game was effectively over unless a 3 pointer was hit on the final possession. Compare that to if Cleveland didn’t get a stop on that transition basket they still would have had nearly 2 minutes to make up the deficit.

[Stanley Kobrick]

https://media.giphy.com/media/wsXIF4YX9hJ2zoSgpS/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/aAOP7dLo3E4d3L8Hmr/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/CuANwxeXOHEHjPOhHo/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/5iZhOMDjMUcI3KjLbc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/TyxdRVf2oXc9X6NVME/giphy.gif
oh wow, old reggie broke mikes ankles twice in one game. good footage

[Spurs m8]

In regards to that Iggy block...lets be honest.

Apart from Iggy having a back injury, JR got in his way first and forced him to ease up...thus slowing him down and giving time for LeSiv to get onto it.

Like everything in this guys career, we leave out details to prop him up.

They don't call him LeManufactured for nothing

[RogueBorg]

Jordan was the more consistent defender

But 2012-2013 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was

LeBron must have won DPOY that year......oh that's right he di'nt.....EVA 0/18

Jordan averaged more steals and more blocks. BTW, how does a 6'-6' 198 SG average more BPG than 6'-9" 260 lb. LBJ?

[RogueBorg]

Throw lebron in the 90s, and we his numbers significantly better than Jordan's



We're not playing "whatifs" here son, irrelevant point because you can't prove your point. Let's stick to facts K? K

[tpols]

Iggy, Durant, Kawhi, Pierce, Butler, etc. destroyed LeBron. Kobe wouldn't let that happen.

[8Ball]

Greatest defensive play in the history of the game:

https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/GVxEu9Ltw5qSXOnc3hWBOS66930=/800x1054/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/G6PUAX5OYERSVXPMBMXGPI6O3M.jpg

[RogueBorg]

I'll take 2012 LeBron as a defender over any version of MJ.

2012 Lebron - 1.9 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 0 DPOY

Jordan has 3 seasons where he averaged more BPG than Lebrons best season.
Jordan has 8 seasons where he averaged more steals per game than Lebrons best season. Lebron averaged 2.0 SPG 1x in his career, Jordan did it 10x. Jordan's career average is better than any one season by Lebron regarding steals

Lebron is a 6x All-NBA Defensive Team member.
Jordan is 9x

Lebron zero DPOY
Jordan 1 DPOY

There is not a single argument for taking any version of Lebron over 1987-'88 Jordan

n
o
t
a
s
i
n
g
l
e
o
n
e

[RogueBorg]

lebron shut down fast break offense in his first two mvp and sealed a title with a chase down block and in general scared gs out of transition. But somehow falls short of mj on help d...

0 dpoy

[Spurs m8]

We're not playing "whatifs" here son, irrelevant point because you can't prove your point. Let's stick to facts K? K

Honestly, if we were playing what ifs, the best what if is seeing Jordan in today's game...averaging 40 tbh

[1987_Lakers]

0 dpoy

You know who else has 0 dpoy? Tim Duncan, does that make Marcus Camby a better defender because he has one?

[Bronbron23]

oh wow, old reggie broke mikes ankles twice in one game. good footage

Why do people show individual clips like this? You coukd literally do it for anyone. Bron is a great defender but he has some of the worse defensive highlights ever

[RogueBorg]

Unfortunately Lebron exists in an era where Paul Pierce, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, etc, etc are standard protocol :applause:

Who was the shutdown defender in 2011? If David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty disappear maybe he was on the Mavs and made Lebron disappear who knows
https://y.yarn.co/86ae44d5-2ecb-4511-8370-b779abae5272_text.gif

[theman93]

Help defense is arguable, I'll take prime LeBron in that department. LeBron can guard every position on the court if asked to, & can rim protect at a higher level than MJ.

Lebron cannot guard the 5. He has never once in his career taken on the assignment of defending the opposing team's center.

[tpols]

2012 Lebron - 1.9 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 0 DPOY

Jordan has 3 seasons where he averaged more BPG than Lebrons best season.
Jordan has 8 seasons where he averaged more steals per game than Lebrons best season. Lebron averaged 2.0 SPG 1x in his career, Jordan did it 10x. Jordan's career average is better than any one season by Lebron regarding steals

Lebron is a 6x All-NBA Defensive Team member.
Jordan is 9x

Lebron zero DPOY
Jordan 1 DPOY

There is not a single argument for taking any version of Lebron over 1987-'88 Jordan

n
o
t
a
s
i
n
g
l
e
o
n
e

What an embarrassing take by 1987"Lakersfan". MJ totally obliterates LeBron in steals and blocks, plus doesn't allow his man to go off on him like Durant, Kawhi, and Iggy. What's the argument? You feel like it lol....

[1987_Lakers]

2012 Lebron - 1.9 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 0 DPOY

Jordan has 3 seasons where he averaged more BPG than Lebrons best season.
Jordan has 8 seasons where he averaged more steals per game than Lebrons best season. Lebron averaged 2.0 SPG 1x in his career, Jordan did it 10x. Jordan's career average is better than any one season by Lebron regarding steals

Lebron is a 6x All-NBA Defensive Team member.
Jordan is 9x

Lebron zero DPOY
Jordan 1 DPOY

There is not a single argument for taking any version of Lebron over 1987-'88 Jordan

n
o
t
a
s
i
n
g
l
e
o
n
e

Again, if you are using steals to prove the fact that MJ was a better defender than you are beyond clueless. Clyde Drexler is top 10 all time in steals, never even made an All-Defensive team, Iverson is top 15, Isiah is top 20 and they were by no means defensive stoppers.

MJ was a known gambler on defense, which in turn gave him alot of steals, but lots of times he got burnt for it. His defense on Magic in the '91 Finals was atrocious, just constant reaching for steals while Magic simply protected the ball, posted him up and used his size advantage to get an easy 2

[tpols]

Lebron cannot guard the 5. He has never once in his career taken on the assignment of defending the opposing team's center.

The laughable truth is LeBron is often left to the WEAKEST offensive player so he can roam for steals. He played Courtney lee in the 2009 ECFs for example.

[RogueBorg]

You know who else has 0 dpoy? Tim Duncan, does that make Marcus Camby a better defender because he has one?

Dumb comparison on your part but since you're struggling with this. If Marcus Camby had more All-NBA 1st Team Defensive selections than Duncan then yes he would be. Since Camby has 4x to Duncan's 15x then no, he is not.

Back to your stupidity. Jordan is a 9x 1st Team All-Defensive with a DPOY. Lebron is 6x with nada.

There is no argument that can be made to say LeBron is better than Jordan.

LeBron's not even better than Kobe.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron cannot guard the 5. He has never once in his career taken on the assignment of defending the opposing team's center.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

All star and future HOFer Pau Gasol who played center for the Lakers 67% of the time he was on the court when the Lakers repeated as champs.

[RogueBorg]

Again, if you are using steals to prove the fact that MJ was a better defender than you are beyond clueless.

Let me explain this again so even you can understand. I am not ONLY using steals. I am using blocks, steals, all-defensive teams, and DPOY. LeBron is not better than Jordan in any of these areas.

It's not me who is clueless.

[1987_Lakers]

Dumb comparison on your part but since you're struggling with this. If Marcus Camby had more All-NBA 1st Team Defensive selections than Duncan then yes he would be. Since Camby has 4x to Duncan's 15x then no, he is not.

Back to your stupidity. Jordan is a 9x 1st Team All-Defensive with a DPOY. Lebron is 6x with nada.

There is no argument that can be made to say LeBron is better than Jordan.

LeBron's not even better than Kobe.

We all know MJ was the more consistent defender, but both at their defensive peaks? LeBron wins. More size, GOAT transition defender, can defend guards, wings, and bigs, & elite help defense.

Lets see MJ do chase down blocks like LeBron or defend someone like Pau Gasol in the post, he can't, he's limited.

End of discussion kid. :pimp:

[theman93]

The laughable truth is LeBron is often left to the WEAKEST offensive player so he can roam for steals. He played Courtney lee in the 2009 ECFs for example.

Yep.

Lebron guarding centers is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. He may switch to one due to being picked, but he is hardly defending them since picks these days are used to create mismatches for the ballhandler and defenders rarely fight over screens anymore to stay on their man.

[RogueBorg]

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG average more blocks per game for his career than a 6'-9" 260 lb brute like LeBron?

[Spurs m8]

Unfortunately Lebron exists in an era where Paul Pierce, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, etc, etc are standard protocol :applause:

We know, we've seen him give multiple fvmp to them...including one when he was only 22 years old.

This guys all eat leroid for breakfast....so does JJ Barea.

Dat GOAT

[theman93]

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG average more blocks per game for his career than a 6'-9" 260 lb brute like LeBron?

It must be all those centers he's guarding.

Oh wait he actually doesn't defend the 5 :lol :lol

[1987_Lakers]

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG average more blocks per game for his career than a 6'-9" 260 lb brute like LeBron?

When MJ came into the league, the NBA played at an extremely fast paced, much faster than the NBA from 2004-2014, so of course the numbers will look inflated.

Notice how MJs block numbers dropped significantly once the NBA became an ugly slow paced game in the mid 90's.

:pimp:

[theman93]

Point guard to center LeBron guards it all

What centers is Lebron out there guarding?

[RogueBorg]

Yep.

Lebron guarding centers is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. He may switch to one due to being picked, but he is hardly defending them since picks these days are used to create mismatches for the ballhandler and defenders rarely fight over screens anymore to stay on their man.

The only reason people think LeBron can guard the 5 is because most of his career the 5's have sucked. He could never guard Dwight, he can't guard Embiid, and he would have crapped his pants if he faced prime Shaq, Qlajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, and Mourning. Puhlease

[1987_Lakers]

The only reason people think LeBron can guard the 5 is because most of his career the 5's have sucked. He could never guard Dwight, he can't guard Embiid, and he would have crapped his pants if he faced prime Shaq, Qlajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, and Mourning. Puhlease

And who was MJ's biggest competition at the 2? Clyde Drexler? :oldlol:

No wonder he made all those defensive teams.

[RogueBorg]

When MJ came into the league, the NBA played at an extremely fast paced, much faster than the NBA from 2004-2014, so of course the numbers will look inflated.

Notice how MJs block numbers dropped significantly once the NBA became an ugly slow paced game in the mid 90's.

:pimp:

Once again, how many All-NBA Defensive Teams and DPOY awards for LeBron?

LeBron's not even better than Kobe. Kobe has twice as many All-Defensive Teams as LeBron LMAO

[ShawkFactory]

The only reason people think LeBron can guard the 5 is because most of his career the 5's have sucked. He could never guard Dwight, he can't guard Embiid, and he would have crapped his pants if he faced prime Shaq, Qlajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, and Mourning. Puhlease

No one ever said he could shut down elite centers though. Just that fact that he was capable of guarding any big men at all shows his versatility on that end.

[1987_Lakers]

Once again, how many All-NBA Defensive Teams and DPOY awards for LeBron?

LeBron's not even better than Kobe. Kobe has twice as many All-Defensive Teams as LeBron LMAO

This is how I know you were not around during Kobe's prime. In his later years, voters selected Kobe to the all-defensive teams simply off reputation. This was heavily discussed by fans all over the net every time he got selected to an All-defensive team.

“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.” - Phil Jackson

That is an actual quote by Phil Jackson, you know, the guy who coached and watched him play every game.

Early 2000's Kobe was a great defender, but he became less effective on that end as the years went on, still an elite one on one defender when he wanted to, but always prone to trying to be superman, which hurt his team.

[RogueBorg]

And who was MJ's biggest competition at the 2? Clyde Drexler? :oldlol:

No wonder he made all those defensive teams.

Man you are clueless. I guess you never heard of Joe Dumars, or Alvin Robertson, or Dennis Johnson, or Michael Cooper, or Mookie Blaylock, or John Stockton. All-Defensive selections are not limited to just SG's, all guards, point and shooting, go up against each other. That's why in years like 1992-'93, 1st Team had 2 SG's in Dumars and Jordan. Just like LeBron is not limited to only going up against other SF's. LeBron is compared to all forwards.

[RRR3]

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG average more blocks per game for his career than a 6'-9" 260 lb brute like LeBron?
Because MJ played at a higher paced league in which more shots were taken inside for a lot of his career. Pretty sure LeBron has a higher block percentage. Additionally LeBron doesn’t go for blocks. He always stays down on defense because he’s disciplined. Maybe you’d know this if you ever watched him play.

[Spurs m8]

While we on this subject, honestly, the match up I'd pay to see is LeRoid and Bill Laimbeer.

No way LeRoid doesn't end up in tears and ducks this guy over time hahhaha

[1987_Lakers]

Man you are clueless. I guess you never heard of Joe Dumars, or Alvin Robertson, or Dennis Johnson, or Michael Cooper, or Mookie Blaylock, or John Stockton. All-Defensive selections are not limited to just SG's, all guards, point and shooting, go up against each other. That's why in years like 1992-'93, 1st Team had 2 SG's in Dumars and Jordan. Just like LeBron is not limited to only going up against other SF's. LeBron is compared to all forwards.

DJ & Cooper were past their prime by the time MJ entered his prime. Nice try.

[1987_Lakers]

While we on this subject, honestly, the match up I'd pay to see is LeRoid and Bill Laimbeer.

No way LeRoid doesn't end up in tears and ducks this guy over time hahhaha

Laimbeer was a bitch once someone had enough of him.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ow29Ea9hCQ

[RogueBorg]

No one ever said he could shut down elite centers though. Just that fact that he was capable of guarding any big men at all shows his versatility on that end.

Anyone can try to guard any position. The only 5's LeBron could ever guard were bums. If they had any game in the post Lebron was done. He could not guard Dwight and there's no way he could have guarded the big boys from the 90's. So could he really guard the 5?

[ClipperRevival]

When MJ came into the league, the NBA played at an extremely fast paced, much faster than the NBA from 2004-2014, so of course the numbers will look inflated.

Notice how MJs block numbers dropped significantly once the NBA became an ugly slow paced game in the mid 90's.

:pimp:

Are you really not aware of the basic concept that most players max out in blocks and steals usually in their early 20's as both plays rely on natural athleticism? Sheesh.

[1987_Lakers]

Are you really not aware of the basic concept that most players max out in blocks and steals usually in their early 20's as both plays rely on natural athleticism? Sheesh.

LeBron averaged 1 bpg at age 33. Jordan was at 0.5 bpg at that age.

Regardless, using blocks as a deciding factor to who the better defender was is a moronic take.

[RogueBorg]

DJ & Cooper were past their prime by the time MJ entered his prime. Nice try.

Jordan was in his prime his rookie year. Cooper had won 3x by 1988. Cooper and Jordan were both 1st-Team defenders in 1987-'88. You should change your avatar because you obviously know nothing about the 1987 Lakers.
Dennis Johnson was All-Defensive in Jordan's first 3 seasons, Jordan knocked him off his pedestal by 1988.

The point is, the only name you were able to spout out of your pie hole off the top of your head was Clyde Drexler, a player who never made an All-Defensive team.

Change your avatar, you're clueless.

[RogueBorg]

LeBron averaged 1 bpg at age 33. Jordan was at 0.5 bpg at that age.

Regardless, using blocks as a deciding factor to who the better defender was is a moronic take.

Again, I'm not ONLY using blocks in my argument. Reading comprehension is not your strength.

[ClipperRevival]

LeBron averaged 1 bpg at age 33. Jordan was at 0.5 bpg at that age.

Regardless, using blocks as a deciding factor to who the better defender was is a moronic take.

Please stop using numbers without context.

Second, SPG and BPG aren't the be all, end all to judge a perimeter defender, but it's useful, especially steals. MJ is one of the GOAT steal generators EVER. And probably the best shot blocking 2 guard ever.

MJ was much better than Bron on the ball. Bron obviously more versatile due to his size. But D comes down to desire. For many seasons, Bron didn't care too much about D. MJ cared about D in every single game.

D is also about the eye test. You can see when a player is engaged and when he is not. Obviously, accolades help too but guys can get voted in on rep. So you have to see the complete picture. MJ passed every test. Few were on his level as a defender.

[theman93]

When MJ came into the league, the NBA played at an extremely fast paced, much faster than the NBA from 2004-2014, so of course the numbers will look inflated.

Notice how MJs block numbers dropped significantly once the NBA became an ugly slow paced game in the mid 90's.

:pimp:

1992 and 2017 had nearly equal pace (could also use 1993 to lessen the age gap as it was nearly identical pace as well) and Jordan still averaged more blocks in both seasons.

[Axe]

1992 and 2017 had nearly equal pace (could also use 1993 to lessen the age gap as it was nearly identical pace as well) and Jordan still averaged more blocks in both seasons.
What's next? Jordan the best rebounder in the league?

[theman93]

What's next? Jordan the best rebounder in the league?

Have you figured out how DRTG works yet? Or do you need me to teach you?

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan was in his prime his rookie year. Cooper had won 3x by 1988. Cooper and Jordan were both 1st-Team defenders in 1987-'88. You should change your avatar because you obviously know nothing about the 1987 Lakers.
Dennis Johnson was All-Defensive in Jordan's first 3 seasons, Jordan knocked him off his pedestal by 1988.

The point is, the only name you were able to spout out of your pie hole off the top of your head was Clyde Drexler, a player who never made an All-Defensive team.

Change your avatar, you're clueless.

Thanks for taking my bait. But going by your logic, how was Michael Cooper a good defender when he only had 1 spg and 0.5 bpg?:oldlol:

Now do you see how dumb you look when u just use steals and blocks as your argument to why someone is a better defender?

Even All-Defensive teams can be misleading (See Kobe)

[theman93]

LeBron averaged 1 bpg at age 33. Jordan was at 0.5 bpg at that age.

Regardless, using blocks as a deciding factor to who the better defender was is a moronic take.

Wait, weren't you just using pace as a reason to knock Jordan for having more blocks?

In Lebron's 33 year old season the pace was 97.3. In Jordan's 33 year old season the pace was 90.1.

Stop moving the goal posts bud.

[warriorfan]

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG average more blocks per game for his career than a 6'-9" 260 lb brute like LeBron?

By being a better defender.

[1987_Lakers]

Wait, weren't you just using pace as a reason to knock Jordan for having more blocks?

In Lebron's 33 year old season the pace was 97.3. In Jordan's 33 year old season the pace was 90.1.

Stop moving the goal posts bud.

So even if they played the same pace LeBron still would have ended with more blocks? Try again.

[theman93]

Jordan was in his prime his rookie year. Cooper had won 3x by 1988. Cooper and Jordan were both 1st-Team defenders in 1987-'88. You should change your avatar because you obviously know nothing about the 1987 Lakers.
Dennis Johnson was All-Defensive in Jordan's first 3 seasons, Jordan knocked him off his pedestal by 1988.

The point is, the only name you were able to spout out of your pie hole off the top of your head was Clyde Drexler, a player who never made an All-Defensive team.

Change your avatar, you're clueless.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F42%2F2 1%2F5f%2F42215f94e9f51bd8634de420f503e2f4.gif&f=1&nofb=1

[Spurs m8]

These guys hahahahha

LeBron averaged .5 more of a block than SG Jordan at age 33.....he must be better!!!

Hahhahahhahahahahahahahahahha

Cherry picking harder than LeBron picks his teams

[theman93]

So even if they played the same pace LeBron still would have ended with more blocks? Try again.

The closest equal comparison we can make between the two is 1992 and 2017 in which there was nearly equal pace (could also use 1993 to lessen the age gap as it was nearly identical pace as well) and Jordan still averaged more blocks in both seasons by a fair margin.

[1987_Lakers]

These guys hahahahha

LeBron averaged .5 more of a block than SG Jordan at age 33.....he must be better!!!

Hahhahahhahahahahahahahahahha

Cherry picking harder than LeBron picks his teams

With the oubre and Klay thread and now this comment I'm convinced you are autistic. An MJ stan was the first to bring up a small advantage of blocks.

[theman93]

Greatest defensive play in the history of the game:

https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/GVxEu9Ltw5qSXOnc3hWBOS66930=/800x1054/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/G6PUAX5OYERSVXPMBMXGPI6O3M.jpg

No it's not. There was still nearly 2 minutes left to be played and Cleveland still had 2 timeouts.

Jordan's steal was pretty easily better.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi304.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn 200%2FnbacardDOTnet%2Fzz%2520NBA%2520Photo%2520Gal lery%2FMichael%2520Jordan%2FVS%2FUtah%2520Jazz%2Fe 89b5632.gif&f=1&nofb=1

Not only was his steal against one of the greatest scoring threats of all time (making his defensive play much more impressive than a block against a mostly average offensive player), but it also came later in the game with only 20 seconds left AND down by 1.

Without Lebron's block it would have put Cleveland in the deficit, but Jordan's steal came with his team already in the deficit and without it, could have put Chicago in an even larger deficit. A much more clutch play by Jordan.

[Axe]

Have you figured out how DRTG works yet? Or do you need me to teach you?
Coach, is that you? :(

[RogueBorg]

Have you figured out how DRTG works yet? Or do you need me to teach you?

:lol :roll::cheers: Good Lord

[RogueBorg]

Thanks for taking my bait. But going by your logic, how was Michael Cooper a good defender when he only had 1 spg and 0.5 bpg?


Because he was 1st-Team All-NBA Defensive Team duh

I don't know why this is so hard for you. I have consistently used three standards together in my arguments, All-Defensive Awards, SPG, and BPG. Why you want to pick out one or two instead of using all three escapes me.

As far as Kobe, I can understand a player getting an award based on reputation, but getting twice as many as LeBron all being based on reputation? No way.

[Axe]

Coach reduced to quoting his own dup, i see. :ohwell:

[And1AllDay]

Playoff DefRating 100 and under (and win FMVP)

LeBron: 2x (2012, 2016)
Jordan: 0x :(

Next

:hammertime:

[ImKobe]

No it's not. There was still nearly 2 minutes left to be played and Cleveland still had 2 timeouts.

Jordan's steal was pretty easily better.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi304.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn 200%2FnbacardDOTnet%2Fzz%2520NBA%2520Photo%2520Gal lery%2FMichael%2520Jordan%2FVS%2FUtah%2520Jazz%2Fe 89b5632.gif&f=1&nofb=1

Not only was his steal against one of the greatest scoring threats of all time (making his defensive play much more impressive than a block against a mostly average offensive player), but it also came later in the game with only 20 seconds left AND down by 1.

Without Lebron's block it would have put Cleveland in the deficit, but Jordan's steal came with his team already in the deficit and without it, could have put Chicago in an even larger deficit. A much more clutch play by Jordan.

That block is so overrated. Iggy was playing with a bad back. If Lebron's not in a position to block the shot, JR just fouls Iguodala and he probably makes 1 out of 2 FTs, 0/2 is not out of the question either, he was a terrible FT shooter. Jordan's steal is easily better, so is Chris Bosh's block on Danny Green at the end of Game 6 to seal the game, or Shane Battier contesting Duncan at the rim and making him miss twice with the Heat up 2 in the last minute of Game 7, Ray Allen also picked Manu's pocket on the drive with 4 seconds to go before the Heat made it a 3-point game in that Game 6 OT.

[RogueBorg]

What's next? Jordan the best rebounder in the league?

No, but he's a better offensive rebounder than LBJ by alot. Jordan played 3 less seasons and far fewer games, 1072 to LBJ's 1310, Jordan leads him 1668 to 1538.

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG get so many more offensive rebounds per game than a 6'-9" 260 lb LeBron?

[kawhileonard2]

Also Durant outplayed Lebron head to head in 3 finals at the same position.

31 ppg on 55% FG in the first one vs 29 ppg on 37% FG for Lebron.

[sdot_thadon]

I think they are pretty comparable but it's basically peak vs career. One thing nobody seems to bring up is Mj made those teams with handchecking available and Lebron plays in the hands free era. If you've ever touched a basketball you know what type of defense is easier to play.

[RogueBorg]

One thing nobody seems to bring up is Mj made those teams with handchecking available and Lebron plays in the hands free era.

You make it sound like MJ was the only one allowed to hand check back then, everybody was hand checking. MJ made 9 1st-Team All-Defensive teams playing by the same rules as every other player in that era.

Likewise, during LeBron's career, every player in the league played by the same rules of hands free as he did, yet he only made it 6x.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan was the more consistent defender

But 2012-2013 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was

Says someone who never saw Jordan play, let alone 1988-93 MJ. :lol

[HoopsNY]

I'll take 2012 LeBron as a defender over any version of MJ.

I get the versatility argument, but Jordan was the better on the ball defender and help defender. His 1993 season saw him rival Hakeem and David Robinson for DPOY. He was regularly referred to as the best defensive player in that year (even though it was clearly Hakeem which showed in the voting).

If you're the better on the ball and help defender, then you're simply the better defender.

[And1AllDay]

I get the versatility argument, but Jordan was the better on the ball defender and help defender. His 1993 season saw him rival Hakeem and David Robinson for DPOY. He was regularly referred to as the best defensive player in that year (even though it was clearly Hakeem which showed in the voting).

If you're the better on the ball and help defender, then you're simply the better defender.

bullshit :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

he never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

[HoopsNY]

He was not better as a help defender are you out of your mind?

And not even as a man defender but that’s at least a popular myth.

Of course he was the better help defender. This isn't some mystery. Jordan is one of the greatest help defenders in league history, and was arguably the best to do it after Larry Bird.

Dunno what "myth" you're talking about. MJ was a menace defensively and one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever. He regularly shutdown opponents.


Jordan habitually was knocked to the floor by the team he loathed most, the Detroit Pistons, who punctured his title dreams for three consecutive seasons with a physical, defensive-oriented style. But in the 1991 Eastern Conference finals, Jordan turned the tables on the Bad Boys.

In that series, Detroit averaged just 0.79 points per play with Jordan as the primary defender, and shot just 35%, according to research by ESPN Stats & Information. Jordan relentlessly tracked guards Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, pickpocketing them in the backcourt or springing out of his low defensive stance with catlike quickness to flood their passing lanes.

"Michael had very quick hands," Rivers says. "And he was very smart in how he used them. The more athletic and dominant you are, the less people give you credit for your intelligence. It's funny, [Larry] Bird and Magic [Johnson], neither of them was a super athlete, so we gave them all this credit for their brains. Well, Michael was just as clever.

"That, combined with his athleticism, made him a suffocating defender. You're bringing the ball up thinking, 'Man, is this guy even going to let me get over half court?' It was unbearable."


Literally how could he be better as a help guy? What is it the gambling tunnel vision? The absolute lack of strength to contain rim shots and rim protect in general? The worse help defensive awareness and communication?


Absolute lack of strength? Alonzo Mourning once compared MJ's strength to that of a Center. And here's what Patrick Ewing had to say about both MJ and Pippen:


"He got me a couple of times," says former New York Knicks center Patrick Ewing. "The thing about him and Scottie was they were big enough, strong enough and athletic enough to challenge a guy like me. Michael could take that initial bump. Most guys couldn't or didn't want to absorb the contact. He didn't care."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29163085/michael-jordan-dominated-nba-defense


LeBron shut down fast break offense in his first two MVP and sealed a title with a chase down block and in general scared GS out of transition. But somehow falls short of MJ on help D...

Hilarious, as if MJ was foreign to the chase down block. He did plenty of that in his career, too. Not to mention, he was a better shot blocker than LeBron. Jordan is arguably the greatest shot blocking guard, ever.

Bran stans want to re-write history as if it didn't happen.

[HoopsNY]

It's close. Career wise gotta go with mj because of his accolades and achievements. Bron at his peak was as good as mj though. Even now in spurts he's one of the best defenders in the league.

Bron at his peak wasn't as good as MJ. At best, LeBron was as good as a help defender at his peak, but LeBron was never the on the ball defender MJ was at his peak.

[HoopsNY]

Iggy, Durant, Kawhi, Pierce, Butler, etc. destroyed LeBron. Kobe wouldn't let that happen.

We always hear how LeBron is the GOAT versatile defender (even though that clearly belongs to Dennis Rodman), yet apparently that works for every position except his own.

[kawhileonard2]

bullshit :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

he never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

Mike won DPOY, Pippen nor Lebron did. Kawhi did as well. GOAT Defenders. Don't bring up made up stats that came up after MJ retired.

[And1AllDay]

bullshit :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

he never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

guys?

[kawhileonard2]

Mike won DPOY, Pippen nor Lebron did. Kawhi did as well. GOAT Defenders. Don't bring up made up stats that came up after MJ retired.

Guys!

[And1AllDay]

Mike won DPOY, Pippen nor Lebron did. Kawhi did as well. GOAT Defenders. Don't bring up made up stats that came up after MJ retired.

mike is a good reg season warrior

crumbled into the chicago gutters in the playoffs unless big brother pip was there to save him

[kawhileonard2]

mike is a good reg season warrior

crumbled into the chicago gutters in the playoffs unless big brother pip was there to save him

MJ never lost with HCA, while Lebron lost with HCA 3x including to Dwight Howard and 2 bronze medals. Prove me wrong!!!

[HoopsNY]

We all know MJ was the more consistent defender, but both at their defensive peaks? LeBron wins. More size, GOAT transition defender, can defend guards, wings, and bigs, & elite help defense.

Lets see MJ do chase down blocks like LeBron or defend someone like Pau Gasol in the post, he can't, he's limited.

End of discussion kid. :pimp:

Nice cherry picking. Gasol was 32 and that was a series of plays. You're acting as if LeBron guarded Gasol for every head to head matchup in his career.

Vlade Divac put up 18/8 on 57% in the NBA finals in 1991. Phil switched MJ onto Vlade in game 1, where on the ball, Vlade shot 1-3. Should we now say MJ can guard centers?

Unbelievable how Bran stans continue to regurgitate the same myths over and over about LeBron's defense.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

I called LeFraud yesterday but it went straight to voicemail... very odd... because whenever I call MJ it usually has 6 rings to it. And he always comes up clutch answering my calls. Must be bc LeMickey has 0 real rings! As calculated, LeChoke lets us down again!

[2much_knowledge]

Jordan was the more consistent defender

But 2012-2013 Lebron was better than Jordan ever was

Thanks for that confession. One year doesn't trump a whole career. Got ya

[sdot_thadon]

You make it sound like MJ was the only one allowed to hand check back then, everybody was hand checking. MJ made 9 1st-Team All-Defensive teams playing by the same rules as every other player in that era.

Likewise, during LeBron's career, every player in the league played by the same rules of hands free as he did, yet he only made it 6x.

Who said that? We weren't comparing them to their peers, I'm pretty sure all nba answers those questions anyhow. We are comparing them as defenders, one guy had the ability to hand check and one did not. If peak Lebron on defense could totally eat point guards alive, then imagine the nightmare he'd be with his strength and being able to handcheck. That's all. Also counting their all defensive selections just kinda highlight the fact that Lebron had alot more competition for those spots in his era. Again Mj was outstanding as a perimeter defender, but so was Lebron.

[Axe]

No, but he's a better offensive rebounder than LBJ by alot. Jordan played 3 less seasons and far fewer games, 1072 to LBJ's 1310, Jordan leads him 1668 to 1538.

How does a 6'-6" 198 lb SG get so many more offensive rebounds per game than a 6'-9" 260 lb LeBron?
Sure thing, coach.

[HoopsNY]

Who said that? We weren't comparing them to their peers, I'm pretty sure all nba answers those questions anyhow. We are comparing them as defenders, one guy had the ability to hand check and one did not. If peak Lebron on defense could totally eat point guards alive, then imagine the nightmare he'd be with his strength and being able to handcheck. That's all. Also counting their all defensive selections just kinda highlight the fact that Lebron had alot more competition for those spots in his era. Again Mj was outstanding as a perimeter defender, but so was Lebron.

MJ wasn't a great defensive player because of hand checking. He stood out without the need to hand check as much as other guards. Guys like Derek Harper used hand checking a lot. When Matt Guokas and Marv Albert discussed it in the '94 finals, it was Harper who they brought up as being one of the primary reasons David Stern wanted to eliminate it.

And I don't know about competition as per position. Both KG and Duncan were older and less defensively adept than they were between 1999-2009. MJ and LeBron each had as many worthy competitors as per guards and forwards. So I wouldn't rely on that as an argument.

MJ dealt with prime GP, Stockton, Dumars, Blaylock, and Robertson amongst guards where competition was concerned. Both Duncan and KG weren't in their primes between 2009-15.

[dankok8]

guys?

This isn't a thread on Pippen's defense. Him being possibly better than Jordan doesn't say anything about Jordan being better than Lebron.

[HoopsNY]

This isn't a thread on Pippen's defense. Him being possibly better than Jordan doesn't say anything about Jordan being better than Lebron.

Pippen wasn't better than Jordan defensively anyhow. If we want to isolate 1996-98, then sure, Pippen gets that nod by a hair. But Jordan and Pippen played 10 seasons together. And during that time, particularly between 1988-93, MJ was the better defensive player the majority of the time.

[theman93]

Why are folks trying to derail this thread in to a Pippen vs Jordan comparison? Can't Lebron stand on his own two feet? Or is it so abundantly clear that Jordan was the better defender that we've moved on to comparing his defense to Pippen?

Let's stick on topic: Given Jordan is the more decorated defender while also being better statistically and analytically, isn't he clearly the better defender than Lebron?

[RogueBorg]

I called LeFraud yesterday but it went straight to voicemail... very odd... because whenever I call MJ it usually has 6 rings to it. And he always comes up clutch answering my calls. Must be bc LeMickey has 0 real rings! As calculated, LeChoke lets us down again!

:applause: Bravo

[RogueBorg]

Sure thing, coach.

For the record, I'm not this Coach guy you keep calling me. Nice Red Herring.

[RogueBorg]

bullshit :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

he never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

Using DRTG alone is failed logic. It's era based and Team Defense base. And comparing era to era is also fail. LeBron's best season DRTG was 2011-'12 with a 97. In the same season, the Bulls had 4 players with lower DRTGs (Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik). Using DRTG should I conclude all 4 were better than LeBron? It's dumb reasoning.

Let's compare one era to LeBron's 2011-'12 season. In 2003-'04, Manu Ginobli and Hedo Turkoglu's DRTG was a 93 and 94 respectively. In fact, the Spurs had 13 players with lower DRTG's than LeBron's best season. Are we to conclude all those players were better defenders than LeBron? Of course not. That's how dumb using DRTG exclusively is.

[theman93]

Using DRTG alone is failed logic. It's era based and Team Defense base. And comparing era to era is also fail. LeBron's best season DRTG was 2011-'12 with a 97. In the same season, the Bulls had 4 players with lower DRTGs (Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik). Using DRTG should I conclude all 4 were better than LeBron? It's dumb reasoning.

Let's compare one era to LeBron's 2011-'12 season. In 2003-'04, Manu Ginobli and Hedo Turkoglu's DRTG was a 93 and 94 respectively. In fact, the Spurs had 13 players with lower DRTG's than LeBron's best season. Are we to conclude all those players were better defenders than LeBron? Of course not. That's how dumb using DRTG exclusively is.

Decimated. :applause:

[RogueBorg]

Using And1AllDay's logic, Gary Payton, a 9x All-Defensive player and 1995-'96 DPOY winner, who never had a DRTG below 102, is a worse defender that Toni Kukoc who has had 5 seasons at, or below a DRTG 102, and an overall lower DRTG for his career than the Glove. GTFO morons

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8d/d5/1d/8dd51dd360c43ed0273b54bab4915800.gif

[iamgine]

drtg can only be compared to your own teammates in the same season.

[ShawkFactory]

Using DRTG alone is failed logic. It's era based and Team Defense base. And comparing era to era is also fail. LeBron's best season DRTG was 2011-'12 with a 97. In the same season, the Bulls had 4 players with lower DRTGs (Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik). Using DRTG should I conclude all 4 were better than LeBron? It's dumb reasoning.

Let's compare one era to LeBron's 2011-'12 season. In 2003-'04, Manu Ginobli and Hedo Turkoglu's DRTG was a 93 and 94 respectively. In fact, the Spurs had 13 players with lower DRTG's than LeBron's best season. Are we to conclude all those players were better defenders than LeBron? Of course not. That's how dumb using DRTG exclusively is.
Well if you understood DRTG a little more it might make more sense to you. You're trying to compare players from different teams. You can't effectively do that with ORTG and DRTG. You can for guys who play in the same system and are on the court together for 35-40 minutes a night.

[RogueBorg]

drtg can only be compared to your own teammates in the same season.

It has problems there too. Was Manu Ginobli (DRTG 93) a better defender in 2003-'04 than his All-NBA Defensive 1st-Team teammate Bruce Bowen (DRTG 97)? Same year, same team.

[ShawkFactory]

It has problems there too. Was Manu Ginobli (DRTG 93) a better defender in 2003-'04 than his All-NBA Defensive 1st-Team teammate Bruce Bowen (DRTG 97)? Same year, same team.
Manu was always an underrated defender. But Bruce Bowen was also a statistical outlier. He doesn’t even average 1 steal per game for his career. His job was to get in the shirt of the best offensive player. Which obviously can’t be statistically measured in any way.

In most situations a teams best defender is generally represented pretty accurately by those numbers. You can find outliers with anything.

[theman93]

Manu was always an underrated defender. But Bruce Bowen was also a statistical outlier. He doesn’t even average 1 steal per game for his career. His job was to get in the shirt of the best offensive player. Which obviously can’t be statistically measured in any way.

In most situations a teams best defender is generally represented pretty accurately by those numbers. You can find outliers with anything.

Are you saying that Ginobili having the higher DRTG is an outlier and that Bowen was actually the better defender?

Or are you saying Ginobili having the higher DRTG is an accurate representation of him being the better defender and that he's underrated?

[PeroAntic]

Jordan was a pest and never took defensive possessions off like Lebron.

[ShawkFactory]

Are you saying that Ginobili having the higher DRTG is an outlier and that Bowen was actually the better defender?

Or are you saying Ginobili having the higher DRTG is an accurate representation of him being the better defender and that he's underrated?

I feel like I was pretty clear with what I said.

Bruce Bowen was a statistical outlier and obviously the superior defender. Manu was underrated. Both statements can be true.

That's why I used the phrasing "in most situations" when discussing the accuracy of DRTG. You can always find surprising results within certain situations, but generally the great defenders have a low DRTG and the bad defenders are high.

[Shooter]

Using DRTG alone is failed logic. It's era based and Team Defense base. And comparing era to era is also fail. LeBron's best season DRTG was 2011-'12 with a 97. In the same season, the Bulls had 4 players with lower DRTGs (Boozer, Noah, Gibson, Asik). Using DRTG should I conclude all 4 were better than LeBron? It's dumb reasoning.

Let's compare one era to LeBron's 2011-'12 season. In 2003-'04, Manu Ginobli and Hedo Turkoglu's DRTG was a 93 and 94 respectively. In fact, the Spurs had 13 players with lower DRTG's than LeBron's best season. Are we to conclude all those players were better defenders than LeBron? Of course not. That's how dumb using DRTG exclusively is.

Wait I thought it was supposedly much easier to score in the modern era? :lol

So then shouldn't MJ have a better DEF Rating? :lol

Uh-oh! :roll::roll:

Michael Fraudon

[sdot_thadon]

MJ wasn't a great defensive player because of hand checking. He stood out without the need to hand check as much as other guards. Guys like Derek Harper used hand checking a lot. When Matt Guokas and Marv Albert discussed it in the '94 finals, it was Harper who they brought up as being one of the primary reasons David Stern wanted to eliminate it.
Where did I say this? I never said it was the reason he was a great defender, he had a ton of physical and mental attributes that made him great. However, I AM saying he had a tool in his box LeBron does not have access to due to rule changes. We, Mj fans died on the hill for handchecking for decades as a reason his scoring was super superior to xyz. It's only logical in turn that if handchecking made it harder to score: it also made it easier to defend. One cannot be true without the other imo....


And I don't know about competition as per position. Both KG and Duncan were older and less defensively adept than they were between 1999-2009. MJ and LeBron each had as many worthy competitors as per guards and forwards. So I wouldn't rely on that as an argument.

MJ dealt with prime GP, Stockton, Dumars, Blaylock, and Robertson amongst guards where competition was concerned. Both Duncan and KG weren't in their primes between 2009-15.
I'd say with confidence LeBron faced a higher level of peers at his respective position without even acknowledging powerforwards than Mj did at 2 guard. Look at how many great perimeter defenders rose to prominence in this era......

[Sportal]

Errr wasn't Jordan guarding 6foot2 shooting guards?

But I do believe that Jordan was a better defender...

[sdot_thadon]

Errr wasn't Jordan guarding 6foot2 shooting guards?

But I do believe that Jordan was a better defender...

From a career standpoint for sure he was, peak for peak Lebron has a hell of an argument though. There weren't many dominant 2 guards for him to see during his run unfortunately but he locked up who lined up in front of him, what more could he do?

[HoopsNY]

Where did I say this? I never said it was the reason he was a great defender, he had a ton of physical and mental attributes that made him great. However, I AM saying he had a tool in his box LeBron does not have access to due to rule changes. We, Mj fans died on the hill for handchecking for decades as a reason his scoring was super superior to xyz. It's only logical in turn that if handchecking made it harder to score: it also made it easier to defend. One cannot be true without the other imo....

It's a good point, but watching MJ, his elite help defense wasn't due to hand-checking, and his on the ball defense wasn't either. I do understand where you're coming from, though.


I'd say with confidence LeBron faced a higher level of peers at his respective position without even acknowledging powerforwards than Mj did at 2 guard. Look at how many great perimeter defenders rose to prominence in this era......

Defensively at his peak? I'm not sure about that. Other than Kawhi in 2013 -15, who else? KG and Duncan were on the decline and nowhere near their defensive peaks that we saw between 1999-09.

[HoopsNY]

Errr wasn't Jordan guarding 6foot2 shooting guards?

But I do believe that Jordan was a better defender...

Sure when you consider Dumars, Starks, etc. But what about Clyde, Miller, Lewis, Drazen, Houston, Spreewell, Richmond, Allen, etc?

[HoopsNY]

Errr wasn't Jordan guarding 6foot2 shooting guards?

But I do believe that Jordan was a better defender...

Sure when you consider Dumars, Starks, etc. But what about Clyde, Miller, Lewis, Drazen, Houston, Spreewell, Richmond, Allen, etc?

[2much_knowledge]

hahahahhahahahahaahahaha

Guy doesn't know what defense is since day 1. Pathetic.

This shit is so embarrassing lol. A rookie shoving you like that. Kuzma of all people lol

This moment will never die.

[2much_knowledge]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/817dba12c7bc34e08310992006feabf6/tenor.gif?itemid=16539448

You tell one teammate that dared to do this to MJ or Kobe... name me one!

[2much_knowledge]

How a 6-6 " skinny " shooting guard averaged more offensive rebounds and blocks than LeMonster 6'8 260?

Thats what i want to know

[HoopsNY]

How a 6-6 " skinny " shooting guard averaged more offensive rebounds and blocks than LeMonster 6'8 260?

Thats what i want to know

Trolling won't help LeBron stans and fans understand where you're coming from. It only pushes them farther into their views. 3ball is a classic case of this.

[8Ball]

How a 6-6 " skinny " shooting guard averaged more offensive rebounds and blocks than LeMonster 6'8 260?

Thats what i want to know

Greatest defensive play in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

Greatest block in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this.

LeBron is the superior defender. Know you know. You're welcome.


https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/869/297/hi-res-f290177275e00c9cd49be6bc2103f0d1_crop_north.jpg?15 90019759&w=3072&h=2048

[Ainosterhaspie]

Steals and blocks are close to meaningless in evaluating defense. Both can be increased by playing bad defense. Gambling for steals leads to wide open opportunities when it fails. Leaping for blocks opens up opportunity to pump fake or pass. You give up the ability to challenge forn shot when you do this. Good defense involves positioning and always being able to challenge, not giving up those things to stat chase.

Defensive awards are close to meaningless as many of Kobe's all defense awards show, and the Jackson quote earlier talks about that and the point I made above. The flashy play makes casuals and award voters think great defense. Meanwhilena great coach is pulling his hair out because the defense is compromised.

LeBron isn't a flashy defender, but he is absolutely elite and has been so for most of his career. He mostly gave up on that end in 2018 when the team as a whole was so bad on that end he realized expending high levels of energy on that end was a complete waste, but outside that year he has consistently been an elite defender.

LeBron's defensive excellence is easy to overlook. It comes in knowing the other teams plays as well as they do. Guys on other teams have talked anout him telling them where they're supposed to go on certain plays. He positions in ways that blow up plays. No steal or block on the stat sheet, but busted play because LeBron positions so well or coordinates his teammates' positioning to destroy the play.

This is why he has excellent defensive metrics even now in year 18 at 36 years old. Team defense significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game and smart play none if which show up in stat sheets or impress voters, but remain the foundation of strong defense nonetheless.

More broadly mass and height, length are strongly tied to defensive impact. The bigger, taller and longer you are, the better you will likely be as a defender. LeBron has advantages over Jordan here allowing him to have greater impact as a defender.

While in Miami saying he defended 1 to 5 wasn't a marketing gimmick or hype. He legitimately was their best defender against point guards and centers and at times it was necessary for them to use him against players at those positions because they had no one else who could defend them effectively. This wasn't a case of handling the matchup a play here or there because of switches. Miami would assign him to Centers for meaningful stretches, often when Bosh and Whatever stiff they were trying were getting overwhelmed. And it worked. LeBron would shore up the inside defense doing a better job than Miami's actual centers.

No he would not shut down Shaq or Hakeem, but neither could Jordan or almost any other player for that matter. If the test is whether he can defend the best scoring centers ever, then most centers don't pass that test either. LeBron was however effective at defending centers by fronting them and effectively denying denying entry pass with his length and leaping, and would probably resort to that against an ATG center if matched against one.

The energy required is too much for him to do that for an entire game, but in a small lineup intended to speed up the game and stretch the floor with the aim of running the opposing center off the floor and forcing him away from the basket, James would likely have some success guarding even great fives as long as the pace of the game is kept high. This wouldn't be effective for full games or halves, but could work for five minute stretches.

Bottom line is that LeBron is the better defender and it's not particularly close either.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Forgot to mention the earlier joke about Howard's post game, the joke being the idea that he was a good to great post player. His biggest flaw when he was at his peak was thinking he was an effective post player. He wasn't. He was a great roll man and put back guy, but going to him in the post was always helping out the opposing team.

[1987_Lakers]

Steals and blocks are close to meaningless in evaluating defense. Both can be increased by playing bad defense. Gambling for steals leads to wide open opportunities when it fails. Leaping for blocks opens up opportunity to pump fake or pass. You give up the ability to challenge forn shot when you do this. Good defense involves positioning and always being able to challenge, not giving up those things to stat chase.

Defensive awards are close to meaningless as many of Kobe's all defense awards show, and the Jackson quote earlier talks about that and the point I made above. The flashy play makes casuals and award voters think great defense. Meanwhilena great coach is pulling his hair out because the defense is compromised.

LeBron isn't a flashy defender, but he is absolutely elite and has been so for most of his career. He mostly gave up on that end in 2018 when the team as a whole was so bad on that end he realized expending high levels of energy on that end was a complete waste, but outside that year he has consistently been an elite defender.

LeBron's defensive excellence is easy to overlook. It comes in knowing the other teams plays as well as they do. Guys on other teams have talked anout him telling them where they're supposed to go on certain plays. He positions in ways that blow up plays. No steal or block on the stat sheet, but busted play because LeBron positions so well or coordinates his teammates' positioning to destroy the play.

This is why he has excellent defensive metrics even now in year 18 at 36 years old. Team defense significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game and smart play none if which show up in stat sheets or impress voters, but remain the foundation of strong defense nonetheless.

More broadly mass and height, length are strongly tied to defensive impact. The bigger, taller and longer you are, the better you will likely be as a defender. LeBron has advantages over Jordan here allowing him to have greater impact as a defender.

While in Miami saying he defended 1 to 5 wasn't a marketing gimmick or hype. He legitimately was their best defender against point guards and centers and at times it was necessary for them to use him against players at those positions because they had no one else who could defend them effectively. This wasn't a case of handling the matchup a play here or there because of switches. Miami would assign him to Centers for meaningful stretches, often when Bosh and Whatever stiff they were trying were getting overwhelmed. And it worked. LeBron would shore up the inside defense doing a better job than Miami's actual centers.

No he would not shut down Shaq or Hakeem, but neither could Jordan or almost any other player for that matter. If the test is whether he can defend the best scoring centers ever, then most centers don't pass that test either. LeBron was however effective at defending centers by fronting them and effectively denying denying entry pass with his length and leaping, and would probably resort to that against an ATG center if matched against one.

The energy required is too much for him to do that for an entire game, but in a small lineup intended to speed up the game and stretch the floor with the aim of running the opposing center off the floor and forcing him away from the basket, James would likely have some success guarding even great fives as long as the pace of the game is kept high. This wouldn't be effective for full games or halves, but could work for five minute stretches.

Bottom line is that LeBron is the better defender and it's not particularly close either.

/thread

[Shooter]

Greatest defensive play in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

Greatest block in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this.

LeBron is the superior defender. Know you know. You're welcome.


https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/869/297/hi-res-f290177275e00c9cd49be6bc2103f0d1_crop_north.jpg?15 90019759&w=3072&h=2048

And

JUST

:lebronamazed:



LIKE



:dancin






THAT

:hammertime::hammertime:

[8Ball]

And

JUST

:lebronamazed:



LIKE



:dancin






THAT

:hammertime::hammertime:

LeBron's statue in Cleveland will be from the greatest defensive play in NBA history.

How can Jordan ever claim defensive prowess over Bran when that happens?

Just point to the statue.

[8Ball]

Steals and blocks are close to meaningless in evaluating defense. Both can be increased by playing bad defense. Gambling for steals leads to wide open opportunities when it fails. Leaping for blocks opens up opportunity to pump fake or pass. You give up the ability to challenge forn shot when you do this. Good defense involves positioning and always being able to challenge, not giving up those things to stat chase.

Defensive awards are close to meaningless as many of Kobe's all defense awards show, and the Jackson quote earlier talks about that and the point I made above. The flashy play makes casuals and award voters think great defense. Meanwhilena great coach is pulling his hair out because the defense is compromised.

LeBron isn't a flashy defender, but he is absolutely elite and has been so for most of his career. He mostly gave up on that end in 2018 when the team as a whole was so bad on that end he realized expending high levels of energy on that end was a complete waste, but outside that year he has consistently been an elite defender.

LeBron's defensive excellence is easy to overlook. It comes in knowing the other teams plays as well as they do. Guys on other teams have talked anout him telling them where they're supposed to go on certain plays. He positions in ways that blow up plays. No steal or block on the stat sheet, but busted play because LeBron positions so well or coordinates his teammates' positioning to destroy the play.

This is why he has excellent defensive metrics even now in year 18 at 36 years old. Team defense significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game and smart play none if which show up in stat sheets or impress voters, but remain the foundation of strong defense nonetheless.

More broadly mass and height, length are strongly tied to defensive impact. The bigger, taller and longer you are, the better you will likely be as a defender. LeBron has advantages over Jordan here allowing him to have greater impact as a defender.

While in Miami saying he defended 1 to 5 wasn't a marketing gimmick or hype. He legitimately was their best defender against point guards and centers and at times it was necessary for them to use him against players at those positions because they had no one else who could defend them effectively. This wasn't a case of handling the matchup a play here or there because of switches. Miami would assign him to Centers for meaningful stretches, often when Bosh and Whatever stiff they were trying were getting overwhelmed. And it worked. LeBron would shore up the inside defense doing a better job than Miami's actual centers.

No he would not shut down Shaq or Hakeem, but neither could Jordan or almost any other player for that matter. If the test is whether he can defend the best scoring centers ever, then most centers don't pass that test either. LeBron was however effective at defending centers by fronting them and effectively denying denying entry pass with his length and leaping, and would probably resort to that against an ATG center if matched against one.

The energy required is too much for him to do that for an entire game, but in a small lineup intended to speed up the game and stretch the floor with the aim of running the opposing center off the floor and forcing him away from the basket, James would likely have some success guarding even great fives as long as the pace of the game is kept high. This wouldn't be effective for full games or halves, but could work for five minute stretches.

Bottom line is that LeBron is the better defender and it's not particularly close either.

High IQ post. Very well said.

No troll, this is spot on.

[theman93]

Steals and blocks are close to meaningless in evaluating defense. Both can be increased by playing bad defense. Gambling for steals leads to wide open opportunities when it fails. Leaping for blocks opens up opportunity to pump fake or pass. You give up the ability to challenge forn shot when you do this. Good defense involves positioning and always being able to challenge, not giving up those things to stat chase.

Steals and blocks are not meaningless in evaluating a player's defense when you couple it with the eye test. Jordan clearly passes the eye test and is the better stealer and shot blocker than Lebron. Advantage here clearly goes to Jordan and it's far from meaningless.


Defensive awards are close to meaningless as many of Kobe's all defense awards show, and the Jackson quote earlier talks about that and the point I made above. The flashy play makes casuals and award voters think great defense. Meanwhilena great coach is pulling his hair out because the defense is compromised.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Bruce Bowen was not a flashy defender and made 8 All-NBA Defensive teams. Tayshaun Prince was not a flashy defender and made 4 All-NBA Defensive teams. Raja Bell was not a flashy defender and made back-to-back All-NBA Defensive teams. Seems like whenever Jordan has an advantage over Lebron you glaze over it as meaningless. That's not how it works bud.


LeBron isn't a flashy defender, but he is absolutely elite and has been so for most of his career. He mostly gave up on that end in 2018 when the team as a whole was so bad on that end he realized expending high levels of energy on that end was a complete waste, but outside that year he has consistently been an elite defender.

Elite defenders are recognized. 2015 and on Lebron is not recognized as elite compared to his contemporaries (and he also was not recognized as elite from 2004-08, but let's focus on 2015-present): Butler, Davis, Green, Kawhi, George, Millsap, Roberson, Horford, Covington, Giannis all received All-Defensive awards over Lebron and they didn't win those awards because they were, "flashy" but because they were great on the defensive side of the ball.


LeBron's defensive excellence is easy to overlook. It comes in knowing the other teams plays as well as they do. Guys on other teams have talked anout him telling them where they're supposed to go on certain plays. He positions in ways that blow up plays. No steal or block on the stat sheet, but busted play because LeBron positions so well or coordinates his teammates' positioning to destroy the play.

Jordan did all of this.


This is why he has excellent defensive metrics even now in year 18 at 36 years old. Team defense significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game and smart play none if which show up in stat sheets or impress voters, but remain the foundation of strong defense nonetheless.

Jordan's team defense also significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game, and smart play. What's your point?


More broadly mass and height, length are strongly tied to defensive impact. The bigger, taller and longer you are, the better you will likely be as a defender. LeBron has advantages over Jordan here allowing him to have greater impact as a defender.

And yet somehow Jordan being less broad, weighing 60 lbs less, and being 2 inches shorter while also playing further from the basket is a better shot blocker than Lebron? What metric, data, or statistic are you using to prove Lebron's impact on the defensive end is greater than Jordan's? Everything you're throwing at the wall is subjective and isn't provable.


While in Miami saying he defended 1 to 5 wasn't a marketing gimmick or hype. He legitimately was their best defender against point guards and centers and at times it was necessary for them to use him against players at those positions because they had no one else who could defend them effectively. This wasn't a case of handling the matchup a play here or there because of switches. Miami would assign him to Centers for meaningful stretches, often when Bosh and Whatever stiff they were trying were getting overwhelmed. And it worked. LeBron would shore up the inside defense doing a better job than Miami's actual centers.

What centers was Lebron guarding for stretches?

[dankok8]

Ainosterhaspie wrote a long post but it's not a particularly good post... A lot of reaching and anecdotes. Lebron had some years he was around Jordan's level defensively but he also had some shockers. His performances defensively in many key finals like 2014, 2017 and 2018 were quite frankly terrible and this doesn't get enough attention.

[1987_Lakers]

Ainosterhaspie wrote a long post but it's not a particularly good post... A lot of reaching and anecdotes. Lebron had some years he was around Jordan's level defensively but he also had some shockers. His performances defensively in many key finals like 2014, 2017 and 2018 were quite frankly terrible and this doesn't get enough attention.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM

Your own boy who you have posted about numerous times said MJ was not an all-time great defender.:lol

[2much_knowledge]

Greatest defensive play in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

Greatest block in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this.

LeBron is the superior defender. Know you know. You're welcome.


https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/869/297/hi-res-f290177275e00c9cd49be6bc2103f0d1_crop_north.jpg?15 90019759&w=3072&h=2048

Your opinion is not universal. Jordan could have made the greatest defensive play in the finals also when he stole the ball from Malone. Jr smith altered that shot first, like Iguodala has clearly stated

Difference is Jordan made the great ofensive play by himself immediately. And Kyrie was the one who put on the big boy pants. There are levels.

[theman93]

Greatest defensive play in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

Greatest block in NBA history belongs to LeBron.

A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this.

LeBron is the superior defender. Know you know. You're welcome.


https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/869/297/hi-res-f290177275e00c9cd49be6bc2103f0d1_crop_north.jpg?15 90019759&w=3072&h=2048

38 year old Michael Jordan making the exact same block after spending 3 years on the couch poisoning his body with alcohol and cigars

http://images.jordansdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/michael-jordan-blocks-ron-mercer-1.jpg

[theman93]

/thread

If your /threading that then you should probably stop talking basketball tbh. It's all easily disprovable, as I've shown.

[Axe]

38 year old Michael Jordan making the exact same block after spending 3 years on the couch poisoning his body with alcohol and cigars

http://images.jordansdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/michael-jordan-blocks-ron-mercer-1.jpg
This block against a rebuilding bulls team in what would be the weakest eastern conference ever is already iconic in your book? :ohwell:

Talk about low standards.

[theman93]

This block against a rebuilding bulls team in what would be the weakest eastern conference ever is already iconic in your book? :ohwell:

Talk about low standards.

You're reading comprehension could use some work bud.

The claim was, "A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this."

We have photo evidence that that's a completely false claim.

[1987_Lakers]

If your /threading that then you should probably stop talking basketball tbh. It's all easily disprovable, as I've shown.

You haven't disproved shit, most fans have LeBron ahead of MJ as a defender peak wise.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1454891

/thread

[theman93]

You haven't disproved shit, most fans have LeBron ahead of MJ as a defender peak wise.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1454891

/thread

A RealGM poll with 79 total votes is representative of most fans? LMAO

Like I said, quit talking basketball.

[Axe]

You're reading comprehension could use some work bud.

The claim was, "A 6-6 skinny shooting guard can't make plays like this."

We have photo evidence that that's a completely false claim.
Sure thing, coach.

[1987_Lakers]

A RealGM poll with 79 total votes is representative of most fans? LMAO

Like I said, quit talking basketball.

Yes, realgm. A site that is known for their basketball IQ, not no espn polls where all the casuals who are clueless about the game vote.

Quit talking basketball.

/thread.

[1987_Lakers]

Sure thing, coach.

:roll:

[theman93]

Sure thing, coach.

Attacking auto correct is a prime come back for somebody who just got dismantled. GG.

[Axe]

Attacking auto correct is a prime come back for somebody who just got dismantled. GG.
Again, this sounds kinda far fetch'd.

[theman93]

Yes, realgm. A site that is known for their basketball IQ, not no espn polls where all the casuals who are clueless about the game vote.

Quit talking basketball.

/thread.

Real GM is not known for it's basketball IQ lol. And 79 votes is far from an accurate representation of millions of fans, sorry to break it to you.

[1987_Lakers]

Real GM is not known for it's basketball IQ lol. And 79 votes is far from an accurate representation of millions of fans, sorry to break it to you.

Sorry to break it to you, but they are. It's well known if you want serious basketball discussion you go to realgm. The people have spoken.

LeBron > Jordan

/thread.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Sure thing, coach.
:milton

[theman93]

Sorry to break it to you, but they are. It's well known if you want serious basketball discussion you go to realgm. The people have spoken.

LeBron > Jordan

/thread.

Wrong again.

Firstly, that's an opinion and you've given no facts to back up your assertion. Secondly, I've been going to Real GM for years and that place is filled with idiots. This forum takes the cake though.

[1987_Lakers]

Wrong again.

Firstly, that's an opinion and you've given no facts to back up your assertion. Secondly, I've been going to Real GM for years and that place is filled with idiots. This forum takes the cake though.

Only facts you have brought up is steals, blocks, & All-defensive teams. A horrible way to compare defenders.

The thing is, defense is mostly going by the eye test, there is no stat out there that proves which defender is better than the other. If you want my thoughts on this subject, go to the beginning of the thread.

MJ is a better man defender, LeBron is the better help defender & his size gives him the ability to guard multiple positions that MJ can't. Peak LeBron could legit guard 1-5 in stretches at a high level, MJ can't.

[theman93]

Only facts you have brought up is steals, blocks, & All-defensive teams. A horrible way to compare defenders.

The thing is, defense is mostly going by the eye test, there is no stat out there that proves which defender is better than the other. If you want my thoughts on this subject, go to the beginning of the thread.

MJ is a better man defender, LeBron is the better help defender & his size gives him the ability to guard multiple positions that MJ can't. Peak LeBron could legit guard 1-5 in stretches at a high level, MJ can't.

Nope, I have brought up all those things and more, including the eye test.


DPOY - Jordan: 1 | Lebron: 0

All-Defensive Teams - Jordan: 9 | Lebron: 6

DRB/g - Jordan: 4.7 | Lebron: 6.3

DRB % - Jordan 14.1 | Lebron: 18.6

STL/g - Jordan: 2.3 | Lebron: 1.6

STL % - Jordan: 3.1 | Lebron 2.1

BLK/g - Jordan: 0.8 | Lebron: 0.7

BLK % - Jordan: 1.4 | Lebron: 1.6

DRTG - Jordan: 103 | Lebron: 104

DWS/yr - Jordan: 4.27 | Lebron: 4.07

DBPM - Jordan: 2.0 | Lebron: 1.8

Also, what centers did Lebron guard at a high level for stretches?

[theman93]

Surely the player who is being considered the more versatile and better peak defender would have atleast won just one DPOY?

Facts don't line up with this narrative.

[RogueBorg]

Sorry to break it to you, but they are. It's well known if you want serious basketball discussion you go to realgm. The people have spoken.

LeBron > Jordan

/thread.

Why do you suppose as great a defender as you think LeBron is, why hasn't he ever won a DPOY? He's never been very good at steals or shot blocks

[RogueBorg]

Follow up question maybe you noobz can help me with. LeBron's first All-NBA Defensive 1st Team he made was in 2008-09, the last was 2012-'13, and he was 2nd Team All-NBA Defensive Team in 2013-'14. That's 5 in 18 years, well 6 if you want to count the 2nd Team he made. Why didn't the voters think he was deserving of this awards in 12 of his 18 years when all the Bronstans keep telling me how great he was? Something doesn't add up.

[HoopsNY]

Ainosterhaspie wrote a long post but it's not a particularly good post... A lot of reaching and anecdotes. Lebron had some years he was around Jordan's level defensively but he also had some shockers. His performances defensively in many key finals like 2014, 2017 and 2018 were quite frankly terrible and this doesn't get enough attention.

Yep. He posted one long diatribe of subjective opinions that isn't based on any actual analysis, other than a regurgitation of Ben Taylor's "gambling" in the passing lanes theory.

Jordan's ability to steal the ball isn't something to gloss over when he was consistently amongst league leaders or actually leading the league in steals. His ability to be the best shot blocking guard also isn't something to gloss over. Mj was really 6'5", weighing 195 lbs for much of his career. The fact that he was able to block shots as much as he did is no small task.

[HoopsNY]

Only facts you have brought up is steals, blocks, & All-defensive teams. A horrible way to compare defenders.

The thing is, defense is mostly going by the eye test, there is no stat out there that proves which defender is better than the other. If you want my thoughts on this subject, go to the beginning of the thread.

MJ is a better man defender, LeBron is the better help defender & his size gives him the ability to guard multiple positions that MJ can't. Peak LeBron could legit guard 1-5 in stretches at a high level, MJ can't.

Steals, blocks, All-Defensive teams, DPOY, eye test. Yea, it all doesn't count cause LeBron stans want to merely make claims, just like the myth that LeBron can effectively guard all 5 positions....except for his own of course. :lol

[HoopsNY]

Surely the player who is being considered the more versatile and better peak defender would have atleast won just one DPOY?

Facts don't line up with this narrative.

Not to mention, MJ was competing with peak David Robinson and peak Hakeem as the best defensive player in the league. Bran stans never mention that though, let alone ever admit it.

[HoopsNY]

Follow up question maybe you noobz can help me with. LeBron's first All-NBA Defensive 1st Team he made was in 2008-09, the last was 2012-'13, and he was 2nd Team All-NBA Defensive Team in 2013-'14. That's 5 in 18 years, well 6 if you want to count the 2nd Team he made. Why didn't the voters think he was deserving of this awards in 12 of his 18 years when all the Bronstans keep telling me how great he was? Something doesn't add up.

And he gets that recognition when the elite defensive forwards in the league decline (KG and Duncan). Whereas MJ was up there with peak guards like GP and Blaylock, Cooper and Robertson, and being compared with the likes of Hakeem, Rodman, and Robinson.

The comparison is laughable. LeBron at his peak was an incredible defensive player. But to say that he was the better defensive player is incorrect.

[theman93]

Why do you suppose as great a defender as you think LeBron is, why hasn't he ever won a DPOY? He's never been very good at steals or shot blocks

Lebron's defensive peak: Member of 1st-Team All Defense

Jordan's defensive peak: Best defender in the league

Objectively speaking, Jordan had the better peak. It's not even a debate.

[theman93]

Steals, blocks, All-Defensive teams, DPOY, eye test. Yea, it all doesn't count cause LeBron stans want to merely make claims, just like the myth that LeBron can effectively guard all 5 positions....except for his own of course. :lol

If Lebron can effectively guard all 5 positions he would have checked Dirk for an extended period of time in the 2011 Finals. There were no wings on that Mavericks team that posed such a great offensive threat that Lebron needed to defend.

[theman93]

Not to mention, MJ was competing with peak David Robinson and peak Hakeem as the best defensive player in the league. Bran stans never mention that though, let alone ever admit it.

Meanwhile, the big men Lebron was competing with for the award was Chandler (2012 winner), Gasol (2013 winner), and Noah (2014 winner). All of which pale in comparison to the big men Jordan was competing with in 1988 - Hakeem, Eaton, and Ewing.

[Shooter]

Lebron's defensive peak: Member of 1st-Team All Defense

Jordan's defensive peak: Best defender in the league

Objectively speaking, Jordan had the better peak. It's not even a debate.

Not in the playoffs :lol

MJ is a great regular season warrior with all these nifty scoring titles and a DPOY but LeBron has more playoff points and playoff defensive stats. MJ is like a Westbrook type, goes hard in the regular season and fades away into the playoffs.

[RogueBorg]

Not in the playoffs :lol

MJ is a great regular season warrior with all these nifty scoring titles and a DPOY but LeBron has more playoff points and playoff defensive stats. MJ is like a Westbrook type, goes hard in the regular season and fades away into the playoffs.

Don't forget more Finals losses.

[theman93]

Not in the playoffs :lol

Lebron is a great regular season warrior without all these nifty scoring titles and no DPOY's but Jordan has more championships. Lebron is like a Westbrook type, sometimes goes hard in the regular season (playoff mode activated) and fades away into the playoffs.

Fixed it for you

[HoopsNY]

Not in the playoffs :lol

MJ is a great regular season warrior with all these nifty scoring titles and a DPOY but LeBron has more playoff points and playoff defensive stats. MJ is like a Westbrook type, goes hard in the regular season and fades away into the playoffs.

That's funny. What happened against the likes of Parker in 2007, Terry in 2011, Kawhi in 2014, Iguodala in 2015, KD in 2017 and 2018, and Butler in 2020? Guess those don't count, right? :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Meanwhile, the big men Lebron was competing with for the award was Chandler (2012 winner), Gasol (2013 winner), and Noah (2014 winner). All of which pale in comparison to the big men Jordan was competing with in 1988 - Hakeem, Eaton, and Ewing.

Well for one thing it should be noted that 5 of the 1st 6 winners of the dpoy were perimeter guys, 7 of the 1st 10, before only 4 of the next 28 guys being perimeter defenders. So were you there in 88 to tell us why he deserved it over Akeem? Impact numbers bear out pretty similar results yet one had 37 1st place votes and the other had 7......

[dankok8]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5aNUS762wM

Your own boy who you have posted about numerous times said MJ was not an all-time great defender.:lol

Ben Taylor said that in the context of absolute impact. Neither MJ nor Lebron are on the level of impact of someone like Rudy Gobert defensively. Big men move the scale on defense. Non-bigs simply don't.

[light]

Jordan was not a better defender. LeBron's size and versatility gives him the defensive edge i.e. he can defend all 5 positions. LeBron's defensive IQ also gives him an edge - LeBron was the defensive quarterback for ALL of his 10 finals teams. Jordan was limited to the perimeter and was never the Bulls defensive quarterback (that was Pippen).

[dankok8]

Anyways some people on here were making a claim that Pippen and Grant/Rodman carried those Bulls teams defensively... Let's post some actual data. I'm not a big fan of adjusted plus minus being used alone but it still gives us an idea especially several different stats with different methodologies. RPM and PIPM don't have playoff data but playoffs are such tiny samples anyways that data is incredibly noisy and I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Defensive RAPM

LINK
(https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/)
1996-1997 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.0
Pippen: +1.0
Rodman: +1.2

1997 Playoffs
Jordan: +1.8
Pippen: +1.1
Rodman: +0.9

1997-1998 Regular Season
Jordan: +0.6
Pippen: -0.7
Rodman: -0.5

1998 Playoffs:
Jordan: +0.6
Pippen: +0.1
Rodman: +0.7

Defensive RPM

LINK (http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/1997/sort/DRPM)

1996-1997 Regular Season
Jordan: +2.47
Pippen: +0.90
Rodman: N/A

1997-1998 Regular Season
Jordan: +2.15
Pippen: N/A
Rodman: +0.86

Defensive PIPM

LINK
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c-vFm9T5aVltZ8btJX-5s_OSk2OYgcuzEYtN3XFruY0/edit#gid=90945325)
1987-1988 Regular Season
Jordan: +2.2
Pippen: +0.9
Grant: +0.6

1988-1989 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.4
Pippen: +1.1
Grant: +0.4

1989-1990 Regular Season
Jordan: +0.5
Pippen: +1.4
Grant: +0.2

1990-1991 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.7
Pippen: +2.1
Grant: +0.5

1991-1992 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.4
Pippen: +1.6
Grant: +1.8

1992-1993 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.1
Pippen: +1.1
Grant: +0.9

1995-1996 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.3
Pippen: +1.7
Rodman: +1.4

1996-1997 Regular Season
Jordan: +1.5
Pippen: +1.3
Rodman: +1.8

1997-1998 Regular Season
Jordan: +0.0
Pippen: +0.9
Rodman: +1.1

[theman93]

Jordan was not a better defender. LeBron's size and versatility gives him the defensive edge i.e. he can defend all 5 positions. LeBron's defensive IQ also gives him an edge - LeBron was the defensive quarterback for ALL of his 10 finals teams. Jordan was limited to the perimeter and was never the Bulls defensive quarterback (that was Pippen).

Jordan made more All-Defense Teams (has the clear edge in longevity as an elite defender).

Jordan was DPOY while Lebron never was (better peak).

Lebron never guarded all 5 positions this is a complete and total fallacy. Who has he ever guarded at the 5? Lebron doesn't guard interior big men.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan made more All-Defense Teams (has the clear edge in longevity as an elite defender).

Jordan was DPOY while Lebron never was (better peak).

Lebron never guarded all 5 positions this is a complete and total fallacy. Who has he ever guarded at the 5? Lebron doesn't guard interior big men.

Not to mention he gets owned by his own position, repeatedly. :lol

[Mr.GOAT2408]

LeBron's defensive peak coincided with a period of less than stellar forward defenders since the actual best forward defenders of this century peaked before and after LeBron's own defensive peak (09-13), there is no way he's making 1st team if mid 00s Duncan/KG (plus a bunch of others from that period) or mid 10s Kawhi/Green (and a few others) also existed during that 09-13 period, plus his effort on that end has always been pretty inconsistent, and he's often been the primary reason so many of his matchups in the finals having career series (for anyone bringing up offensive burden, maybe this guy should focus on minimizing his total touches/dribbles like MJ did)

He's an overrated as **** defender, versatility (which is overrated) and blocking fastbreak dunks (which he's obviously great at) are all he really has, Jordan even as mostly a guard defender (but still capable of guarding 3s) was better even if he wasn't quite as versatile as LeBron

And the myth that he can guard 1-5 is just that, a myth. He guarded age 22 Rose at his physical peak for like 2 quarters and guarded Gasol (in his 30s?) for a few possessions and it's fooled people into thinking he can guard 5s or even big 4s, he got punked by David West and even admitted after that game he couldn't do that shit for an entire game. We got plenty of footage of Jordan and Kobe going at legit 4s/5s and making them turn the ball over, blocked, or miss their shot altogether, can they guard 1 - 5?? I guess so, I don't make the rules

[Shooter]

LeBron's defensive peak coincided with a period of less than stellar forward defenders since the actual best forward defenders of this century peaked before and after LeBron's own defensive peak (09-13), there is no way he's making 1st team if mid 00s Duncan/KG (plus a bunch of others from that period) or mid 10s Kawhi/Green (and a few others) also existed during that 09-13 period, plus his effort on that end has always been pretty inconsistent, and he's often been the primary reason so many of his matchups in the finals having career series (for anyone bringing up offensive burden, maybe this guy should focus on minimizing his total touches/dribbles like MJ did)

He's an overrated as **** defender, versatility (which is overrated) and blocking fastbreak dunks (which he's obviously great at) are all he really has, Jordan even as mostly a guard defender (but still capable of guarding 3s) was better even if he wasn't quite as versatile as LeBron

Kobe has never anchored a playoff defense.
MJ has never anchored a playoff defense.

2012, 2013, and 2016 LeBron anchored a championship defense.

Next

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Kobe has never anchored a playoff defense.
MJ has never anchored a playoff defense.

2012, 2013, and 2016 LeBron anchored a championship defense.

Next
Bosh anchored that Heat defense more than LeBron did, and he didn't anchor 2016 :oldlol: perimeter players can't truly anchor a defense anyway, only in today's small ball era (well, it's gotten bigger recently now that there are 7 footers worth a damn today compared to 5 years ago when the PF/C crop was abysmal) that might have been possible but definitely not in any other time period

[Shooter]

Bosh anchored that Heat defense more than LeBron did, and he didn't anchor 2016 :oldlol: perimeter players can't truly anchor a defense anyway, only in today's small ball era (well, it's gotten bigger recently now that there are 7 footers worth a damn today compared to 5 years ago when the PF/C crop was abysmal) that might have been possible but definitely not in any other time period

Wrong

https://i.postimg.cc/PqHtzYQh/3x-Anchor-among-starters.png

3x he was the Defensive leader through the playoffs.

He is greater by far

[dankok8]

Imagine actually believing Lebron is in the same sentence as AD on defense... :lol

[light]

LeBron is the most versatile defender in history. Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team.

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan was the better defender clearly. He has more All Defensive First Teams and played less seasons also while getting DPOY something Lebron could never dream of getting. He has led the league in steals 3x which Lebron never did. Jordan didn't get outscored by opposing position in the playoffs in a series, while Lebron did quite a few times and Lebron also has had guys win Finals MVP over him at his position for dominating him.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron is the most versatile defender in history. Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team.

Lies. Rodman is the most versatile defensive player in history and Jordan between 1988-98 was the best defensive player on Chicago the majority of the time. It's pure recency bias because MJ missed two years and Pippen was the better defender in 1996.

Bran stans wanna act like LeBron can guard the 3 and the 5. He got owned against the likes of Kawhi, Iguodala, George, Durant, and Butler, yet Bran stans want to ignore that and use a stretch of plays in a regular season game against Gasol to deflect the truth.

[Shooter]

Wrong

https://i.postimg.cc/PqHtzYQh/3x-Anchor-among-starters.png

3x he was the Defensive leader through the playoffs.

He is greater by far

Is there no one else?

https://i.postimg.cc/nVPqhnDN/bran_smile.png

Was it that easy? Just post facts?

[999Guy]

Of course he was the better help defender. This isn't some mystery. Jordan is one of the greatest help defenders in league history, and was arguably the best to do it after Larry Bird.

Dunno what "myth" you're talking about. MJ was a menace defensively and one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever. He regularly shutdown opponents.





Absolute lack of strength? Alonzo Mourning once compared MJ's strength to that of a Center. And here's what Patrick Ewing had to say about both MJ and Pippen:



https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29163085/michael-jordan-dominated-nba-defense



Hilarious, as if MJ was foreign to the chase down block. He did plenty of that in his career, too. Not to mention, he was a better shot blocker than LeBron. Jordan is arguably the greatest shot blocking guard, ever.

Bran stans want to re-write history as if it didn't happen.

Just seeing this. Two things.

I cannot express enough the lack of shits I give for Jordan locking down the 91 Pistons relatively shit and weak wings.

Those Pistons didn’t have a single guy who make today’s ALL-NBA teams. It’s pitiful.


And I don’t think you realize the matter of common sense it takes to see I’m right about Jordan vs LeBron as help defenders and rim protectors.

Anything you can say about Jordan as a physical defender it’s just gonna be magnified when comparing to a guy far more physically dominant in LeBron.

It’s really not even up for some sort of debate. Jordan is objectively far weaker, smaller, shorter, less lengthy and intelligent than LeBron. Defense reflects this.

And **** intelligence. I mean LeBron is smarter but look at discipline, habits, and fundamentals. Jordan was far more impulsive than LeBron on both ends. And it made his inferior intellect that much more obvious.


I cannot even say with a certainty what Jordan thrived at mentally. But I KNOW LeBron is basketball genius on schemes, coverages, approach, adaptability.

[HoopsNY]

Just seeing this. Two things.

I cannot express enough the lack of shits I give for Jordan locking down the 91 Pistons relatively shit and weak wings.

Those Pistons didn’t have a single guy who make today’s ALL-NBA teams. It’s pitiful.


And I don’t think you realize the matter of common sense it takes to see I’m right about Jordan vs LeBron as help defenders and rim protectors.

Anything you can say about Jordan as a physical defender it’s just gonna be magnified when comparing to a guy far more physically dominant in LeBron.

It’s really not even up for some sort of debate. Jordan is objectively far weaker, smaller, shorter, less lengthy and intelligent than LeBron. Defense reflects this.

And **** intelligence. I mean LeBron is smarter but look at discipline, habits, and fundamentals. Jordan was far more impulsive than LeBron on both ends. And it made his inferior intellect that much more obvious.


I cannot even say with a certainty what Jordan thrived at mentally. But I KNOW LeBron is basketball genius on schemes, coverages, approach, adaptability.

Klay Thompson was All-NBA twice in 2015 and 2016, but Dumars couldn't make All-NBA in today's free reign on the perimeter? Dumars was a great offensive and defensive player. He peaked at 24 PPG on 47/38/86 splits. Now tell me that 1993 was the open court free for all that it is today.

And Klay competed with elite guards like Harden, Steph, Dame, Paul, and Westbrook.

But Dumars had Isiah, MJ, Clyde, Magic, Stockton, KJ, and Hardaway.

You're acting as if Dumars' selections and competition were out of a lack of quality guards, when 2 of those guards are top 10 players of all-time.

You're also completely underrating MJ's strength and physical ability. Did you actually read what Ewing said in the article above?


"He got me a couple of times," says former New York Knicks center Patrick Ewing. "The thing about him and Scottie was they were big enough, strong enough and athletic enough to challenge a guy like me. Michael could take that initial bump. Most guys couldn't or didn't want to absorb the contact. He didn't care."

But hey, if you want to ignore one of the all-time great centers then go ahead. Not to mention, on one hand you're saying LeBron is more "intelligent", then in the next line it's **** intelligence. :confusedshrug:

[Bronbron23]

Yes stats, accolades and achievements say mj is better so i'd go with mj as far as careers go. That said as far as eye test goes bron at his peak is every bit as good of a defender mj was.

[HoopsNY]

Yes stats, accolades and achievements say mj is better so i'd go with mj as far as careers go. That said as far as eye test goes bron at his peak is every bit as good of a defender mj was.

We didn't see MJ play the year he won DPOY (well at least I didn't). And by 1993, MJ was referred to as the best defensive player in the game, this despite playing in a league with Hakeem, Rodman, and D-Rob. I don't think he was a better defensive player than Hakeem by any stretch of the imagination, but it does put things into perspective. 2012 LeBron was competing with who exactly that was the caliber of peak Hakeem, peak Rodman, and peak D-Rob?

[Micku]

I don't think you should compare defensive stats like that across eras. Different rules, different offense and etc.

With that said, I'm not too sure MJ is better than Lebron at both of their peak at defense. They both do things better than the other tho.

Like what MJ does better:
Better at reading the passing lane
Better help
Quicker at getting back to his man if he is out of position
Quicker hands
Better motor

LeBron:
Better rim protection
More versatile
Due to his large frame, and quick feet, it makes it tough for guards to go pass him at his peak
Gambles less on the steals

I don't think it's simply MJ>LeBron or vice versa. Unless you wann'a talk about LeBron now.

In terms of longevity, MJ is better. He had more stamina. At their very peak, I think MJ was more active. But LeBron was versatility was crazy. In the small ball era, LeBron is effectiveness would increase. Tho he doesn't defend as good as he used to. Ideally, MJ is great as well within the small ball era. They played under different rules and philosophy. MJ's era was more physical, less switches, not as much 3pt shot, and it was easier to play defense. LeBron era has more 3pt shots, more switches, lack of big men. But I think it's safe to say that MJ was a better defensive player in his era than LeBron in his. But they are both great at their peak.

[Micku]

We didn't see MJ play the year he won DPOY (well at least I didn't). And by 1993, MJ was referred to as the best defensive player in the game, this despite playing in a league with Hakeem, Rodman, and D-Rob. I don't think he was a better defensive player than Hakeem by any stretch of the imagination, but it does put things into perspective. 2012 LeBron was competing with who exactly that was the caliber of peak Hakeem, peak Rodman, and peak D-Rob?

You could still watch some games when he played in 88. He was still very active. He was very well deserving of that reward. He was all over the place on the floor. Although sometimes to a fault, but he was so quick at getting back into position.

He is honestly the best I seen at reading the passing lane. And if he missed it with the gamble, he was one of the best ever to get back to recover.

I think he became more discipline later in his career, but he was still active.

Like for me, the best 1on1 player I seen from the guard position is Tony Allen.

The best help, might be MJ.

But it's hard to compare across eras. Due to the lack of spacing, I'm it was easier to be all over the floor then compared to the late 00s and onwards. Although you could probably still do it to some extent, it's harder now. They just played under different rules. So, it's not really fair to compare them. It was a different game. We can still try. Like you definitely compare the effort and certain parts about the game. But not everything.

[Micku]

And one more thing. I don't think y'all should compare Drtg across eras like that. First, it's a team stat. Second, it depends on the era.

The best example would just look at the early 00s.

Guys like Billups and Richard Hamilton in 2004 had better Drtg than MJ and Rodman did with their DPOY years. And they both had better Drtg than LeBron or most all time great defenders in the playoffs that year.

It wasn't that they were better defenders than LeBron or MJ, but they were on the best defensive team with the slowest pace, grind it out, league at the time.

And even with Drtg, it sometimes don't really tell you the best on the team either. While the numbers don't lie, it could mislead if you don't use the right context. Bird also got a lower Drtg than Mchale in 86. But he wasn't a better defender than Mchale was. At least not 1on1. They used Bird to guard the weakest offensive player on the team, and let him roam around. Although Bird within the post is solid.

GSW use Curry the same way and I think he used to have a better Drtg than Klay. Meanwhile, teams are active looking to switch off of Klay to get Curry, since he is the weakest defender on the team during their championship runs.

[Bronbron23]

We didn't see MJ play the year he won DPOY (well at least I didn't). And by 1993, MJ was referred to as the best defensive player in the game, this despite playing in a league with Hakeem, Rodman, and D-Rob. I don't think he was a better defensive player than Hakeem by any stretch of the imagination, but it does put things into perspective. 2012 LeBron was competing with who exactly that was the caliber of peak Hakeem, peak Rodman, and peak D-Rob?

Probably nobody of that caliber but there were some good defenders. Kobe, tony allen, kg and tyson chandler were solid. It's a fair point though although you could argue bron had hader defensive assignments. Most of the better players in mj's days were fowards and centers who he usually didn't defend.

[SaintzFury13]

The only thing I will really say is that at his absolute peak, LeBron was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. I think people sometimes forget just how good of a defender LeBron was in 2013. But you really cannot argue against MJ in this regard. I don't see how anyone who watched MJ and LeBron both play can think MJ doesn't win the battle here as far as defense is concerned. And if we go off of accolades alone, MJ still wins pretty easily (even though LeBron should have been DOPY in 2013. Marc Gasol had no business winning it that season).

[Mauzah]

Steals and blocks are close to meaningless in evaluating defense. Both can be increased by playing bad defense. Gambling for steals leads to wide open opportunities when it fails. Leaping for blocks opens up opportunity to pump fake or pass. You give up the ability to challenge forn shot when you do this. Good defense involves positioning and always being able to challenge, not giving up those things to stat chase.

Defensive awards are close to meaningless as many of Kobe's all defense awards show, and the Jackson quote earlier talks about that and the point I made above. The flashy play makes casuals and award voters think great defense. Meanwhilena great coach is pulling his hair out because the defense is compromised.

LeBron isn't a flashy defender, but he is absolutely elite and has been so for most of his career. He mostly gave up on that end in 2018 when the team as a whole was so bad on that end he realized expending high levels of energy on that end was a complete waste, but outside that year he has consistently been an elite defender.

LeBron's defensive excellence is easy to overlook. It comes in knowing the other teams plays as well as they do. Guys on other teams have talked anout him telling them where they're supposed to go on certain plays. He positions in ways that blow up plays. No steal or block on the stat sheet, but busted play because LeBron positions so well or coordinates his teammates' positioning to destroy the play.

This is why he has excellent defensive metrics even now in year 18 at 36 years old. Team defense significantly improves when he's on the floor because of his leadership, knowledge of the game and smart play none if which show up in stat sheets or impress voters, but remain the foundation of strong defense nonetheless.

More broadly mass and height, length are strongly tied to defensive impact. The bigger, taller and longer you are, the better you will likely be as a defender. LeBron has advantages over Jordan here allowing him to have greater impact as a defender.

While in Miami saying he defended 1 to 5 wasn't a marketing gimmick or hype. He legitimately was their best defender against point guards and centers and at times it was necessary for them to use him against players at those positions because they had no one else who could defend them effectively. This wasn't a case of handling the matchup a play here or there because of switches. Miami would assign him to Centers for meaningful stretches, often when Bosh and Whatever stiff they were trying were getting overwhelmed. And it worked. LeBron would shore up the inside defense doing a better job than Miami's actual centers.

No he would not shut down Shaq or Hakeem, but neither could Jordan or almost any other player for that matter. If the test is whether he can defend the best scoring centers ever, then most centers don't pass that test either. LeBron was however effective at defending centers by fronting them and effectively denying denying entry pass with his length and leaping, and would probably resort to that against an ATG center if matched against one.

The energy required is too much for him to do that for an entire game, but in a small lineup intended to speed up the game and stretch the floor with the aim of running the opposing center off the floor and forcing him away from the basket, James would likely have some success guarding even great fives as long as the pace of the game is kept high. This wouldn't be effective for full games or halves, but could work for five minute stretches.

Bottom line is that LeBron is the better defender and it's not particularly close either.

Both steals and blocks can be increased by playing bad defense? Seriously? Do you not factor in the subtle intangibles that make up great defensive players like knowing the offensive players tendencies, knowing what quality of defensive help you have behind you on a play by play basis. Yes the pursuit of the steal is a risk but it can be mitigated by what you have behind you or by knowing if you have the foot speed to shore up your own defensive gamble without forcing teammates to break their position.

[And1AllDay]

is it over now? :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

mike never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

[kawhileonard2]

Yes Jordan was better quite clearly. He won DPOY, and made more all first teams defense teams. Also Lebron got outplayed by guys at his position and gave up several finals mvp to guys at his position.

[And1AllDay]

Wrong

https://i.postimg.cc/PqHtzYQh/3x-Anchor-among-starters.png

3x he was the Defensive leader through the playoffs.

He is greater by far


Is there no one else?

https://i.postimg.cc/nVPqhnDN/bran_smile.png

Was it that easy? Just post facts?

baaaaaang! miss my boi shooter hope he returns soon

[HoopsNY]

Probably nobody of that caliber but there were some good defenders. Kobe, tony allen, kg and tyson chandler were solid. It's a fair point though although you could argue bron had hader defensive assignments.

KG was 35 at the time and a shell of his former self.

Kobe was All-Defensive 2nd Team in 2012, and not selected in 2013. By that time he was banged up and hardly a defensive menace, at all.

Chandler sure, but he was never anything similar to peak Hakeem, Rodman, or Robinson.

I'll give you Allen, though.


Most of the better players in mj's days were fowards and centers who he usually didn't defend.

Which is where both LeBron and MJ get praised immensely because of their abilities on help defense. MJ was a superior help defender. It is ultimately why guys like Mike Fratello and Jerry West routinely referred to him as the best defensive player in the game. So even though he wasn't defending Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Hakeem, etc, he was always around to impact their contributions.

[And1AllDay]

is it over now? :oldlol:

mike never anchored a defense like bran and pippen

mike never led his team in def rtg

https://i.postimg.cc/gj4c8W0r/pip_elite_defense_xzz.png

mike wish he could

issa wrap now? :oldlol:

[hateraid]

Jordan had Pippen to take the tougher assignments. Lebron is probably just as good as Pippen so there's a measuring stick that can be used more accurately

[HoopsNY]

Jordan had Pippen to take the tougher assignments. Lebron is probably just as good as Pippen so there's a measuring stick that can be used more accurately

Jordan won DPOY in 1988 when Pippen was a rookie coming off the bench. His elite defensive ability then was due to Pippen or was he just actually that good?

[ScottieQuitting]

Yes. MJ, Kobe, Pippen, Kawhi are all superior defenders than LeBron. Even at his very best. Just not amazing at lateral movement with his bow legs necessary to be a lock down defender. And at his best was a good not great team / rotation defender. And really he only did that for three seasons in 2011, 2012, and 2013. The other guys have greater ability and more sustainability as elite defenders.

[And1AllDay]

Wrong

https://i.postimg.cc/PqHtzYQh/3x-Anchor-among-starters.png

3x he was the Defensive leader through the playoffs.

He is greater by far

we done here bois? :oldlol: