Reggie Miller and Pippen faced the same opponent in the playoffs 6 times....

[3ball]

.

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


Miller has far superior scoring and efficiency on less usage, while also providing great spacing and historic clutch compared to Pippen's weak shooting and legendary chokes.

Accordingly, Miller had numerous great teams and historic runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).

Ultimately, people forget that rookie Pippen was an 8 ppg liability that MJ carried to the 2nd Round and ECF, while Lebron needed a 2-time all-star center to make the 06' Playoffs, along with a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY.

So Lebron always enjoyed high seeds and teammates with all-star resumes in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had deep runs with low seeds and undecorated role players in a conference that required a super-team to win it.
.

[Dr Hawk]

Imagine if one of the best all-around players ever also had better scoring and efficiency numbers than one of the best shooters ever.

[3ball]

Imagine if one of the best all-around players ever also had better scoring and efficiency numbers than one of the best shooters ever.


Miller averaged more PPG in the regular season and playoffs on better efficiency and drastically outperformed Pippen against the same comp

In addition to vastly superior offense, Miller also had top defensive teams despite not having any heralded defensive teammates because defense is a nothing more than a prideful mentality, which Miller had in spades.. Furthermore, his elite offense allowed GM's to surround him with cheaper defenders, similar to Kyrie, Bird or Curry, who led #1 defensive teams.. Individual defense can be overrated or a non-factor in many player comparisons, particularly for special offensive players.

[8Ball]

Miller is worst than Klay thomson.

[RRR3]

If Pippen could shoot like Miller he might be GOAT. Dumb thread.

[3ball]

If Pippen could shoot like Miller he might be GOAT. Dumb thread.


Reggie Miller significantly outperformed Pippen against the same comp 6 different times... 6/6

This matters because (for example) Jordan would've won the 95' ECSF with Miller's 26 on 52% instead of Pippen's 19 on 41%.




If Pippen could shoot like Miller he might be GOAT. Dumb thread.


Miller has far superior scoring, efficiency and clutch on less usage.

So Miller had numerous great teams and historic runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).. Pippen is nowhere near Miller.

[ShawkFactory]

Didn’t read anything but saw the first sentence of the last paragraph.

Love that we’re managing to make a Reggie Miller vs Pippen thread about Lebron. Some roundabout shite

[3ball]

Didn’t read anything





Thread Cliffs

Reggie Miller significantly outperformed Pippen against the same playoff opponents 6 different times... 6/6... A consistent trend.

Miller superior basketball allowed numerous great teams and historic runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).. Pippen is nowhere near Miller.


How this relates to Lebron

Rookie Pippen was an 8 ppg liability that MJ carried to the 2nd Round and ECF, while Lebron needed a 2-time all-star center to make the 06' Playoffs, along with a 22/5/5 acquisition and the future COY.

So Lebron always enjoyed high seeds and teammates with all-star resumes in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had deep runs with low seeds and undecorated role players in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

[ShawkFactory]

Thread Cliffs


Reggie Miller significantly outperformed Pippen against the same playoff opponents 6 different times... 6/6... A consistent trend.

Miller superior basketball allowed numerous great teams and historic runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).. Pippen is nowhere near Miller.

What historic runs are we talking about :lol

[3ball]

What historic runs are we talking about :lol


He nearly beat the 98' Bulls including the legendary winner over Jordan (here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5drIn3aLco)) and he made the 2000 Finals where he destroyed Kobe.

But his clutch reputation was made on his ECF runs and clutch destructions of the Knicks (here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFrhZr7fHzk) and here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sR_i0YGrFGo))

So Miller had many legendary, deep runs because he played far better than Pippen (see the OP), while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).. Pippen is nowhere near Miller

[Bankaii]

Why are you conveniently leaving out assists and FGA?
And lmao at using usage against Pippen when he’s a much better playmaker than Miller.

[8Ball]

Jordan lost to someone worst than Dwight Howard 3 years in a row.

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Lebron James would LICK Pippen's sneakers if they played each other.

Lebron has always been a Pippen wanna be.

[8Ball]

Reggie Miller averaged 18/3/3 for his career :roll:

Same as Klay Thomson.

This is Jordan's toughest eastern opponent?!?

[3ball]

Lebron James would LICK Pippen's sneakers if they played each other.

Lebron has always been a Pippen wanna be.


Lebron was Pippen in the 11' Finals (18/7/6 and scared in the clutch)

But Wade couldn't win with that, just like Hakeem and Barkley couldn't in 1999 - only Jordan could win with that crap

[ShawkFactory]

He nearly beat the 98' Bulls including the legendary winner over Jordan (here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5drIn3aLco)) and he made the 2000 Finals where he destroyed Kobe.

But his clutch reputation was made on his ECF runs and clutch destructions of the Knicks (here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BFrhZr7fHzk) and here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sR_i0YGrFGo))

So Miller had many legendary, deep runs because he played far better than Pippen (see the OP), while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).. Pippen is nowhere near Miller
“Nearly“ beating a team doesn’t constitute a historic run :lol

Though it is strange that the series was so close given that the Bulls second option produced the same as the Pacers first.

Sometimes these things happen I suppose.

[8Ball]

Jordan lost to someone worst than Dwight Howard 3 years in a row.

Thread cliffs right here.

I haven't seen an answer to this since Oct 2020.

[tpols]

The crazy thing is the numbers are skewed against Reggie since he didn't have MJ taking first option defensive coverage. Reggie Miller is truly one of the most underrated basketball players of all time.

[3ball]

“Nearly“ beating a team doesn’t constitute a historic run :lol

Though it is strange that the series was so close given that the Bulls second option produced the same as the Pacers first.

Sometimes these things happen I suppose.


Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat.

So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

And Rik Smits outplayed Pippen in the 98' ECF - both averaged 16, but Smits shot 55% to Pippen's 39%.

[tpols]

Imagine if one of the best all-around players ever also had better scoring and efficiency numbers than one of the best shooters ever.

You're not one of the best all around players ever if you're mediocre at offense. Athletic defensive players are far more easily available than great offensive players.

[ShawkFactory]

Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat.

So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

And Rik Smits outplayed Pippen in the 98' ECF - both averaged 16, but Smits shot 55% to Pippen's 39%.

The Pacers first option scored 17 on 41%. The Bulls second option scored 17 on 39%.

The Bulls second option actually had a higher game score 13.0 to 11.6. (And actually while we’re on the subject..the Bulls THIRD option had a higher game score than the Pacers’ FIRST).

So again, strange that that series was so close.

I guess it’s kind of like the 2004 finals. The Lakers had the 2 best players by far but the opponent played a superior brand of ball for that series.

It appears the Pacers did as well. Unfortunately to talent disparity was too much.

[Kblaze8855]

So who is gonna post the quote from Reggie about who he most wished he could play like?

[3ball]

The Pacers first option scored 17 on 41%. The Bulls second option scored 17 on 39%.

The Bulls second option actually had a higher game score 13.0 to 11.6. (And actually while we’re on the subject..the Bulls THIRD option had a higher game score than the Pacers’ FIRST).

So again, strange that that series was so close.

I guess it’s kind of like the 2004 finals. The Lakers had the 2 best players by far but the opponent played a superior brand of ball for that series.

It appears the Pacers did as well. Unfortunately to talent disparity was too much.


The 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option:



1998 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%
Smits....... 16.2 on 55%


1992 ECSF

Pippen...... 16.0 on 40%
X-man....... 18.6 on 50%


1990 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 42%
Dumars.... 20.0 on 50%


Ultimately, Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat... So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

[ShawkFactory]

[Indent]1998 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%
Smits....... 16.2 on 55%[Indent]


The 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option (90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 98' ECF)

Ultimately, Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat... So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

The Bulls THIRD option had a higher game score than Reggie Miller.

The talent disparity of those teams was simply too great at the end of the day, despite the Pacers superior brand that they played (the brand was superior because they took it to 7 despite being completely overmatched talent-wise)

[SouBeachTalents]

The Bulls THIRD option had a higher game score than Reggie Miller.

The talent disparity of those teams was simply too great at the end of the day, despite the Pacers superior brand that they played (the brand was superior because they took it to 7 despite being completely overmatched talent-wise)
Agreed, Jordan's team was just too stacked

[3ball]

The Bulls THIRD option had a higher game score than Reggie Miller.

The talent disparity of those teams was simply too great at the end of the day, despite the Pacers superior brand that they played (the brand was superior because they took it to 7 despite being completely overmatched talent-wise)


Majerle had higher gamescore in the 93' Finals - gamescore means exactly nothing...

Ultimately, the 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option:



1998 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%
Smits....... 16.2 on 55%


1992 ECSF

Pippen...... 16.0 on 40%
X-man....... 18.6 on 50%


1990 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 42%
Dumars.... 20.0 on 50%


Ultimately, Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat... So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

[Kblaze8855]

You're not one of the best all around players ever if you're mediocre at offense. Athletic defensive players are far more easily available than great offensive players.

Know how many people put up both more points and assists per game in his prime? For 6 years....

1
2
0
0
2
5


That is not being mediocre on offense. It’s just the way the internet changes standards to fit whatever the situation is. Merely not being an elite scorer and being a mediocre offensive player are like 40 miles apart.

I swear people act like the nba is nothing but superstars.

Pippen was a mediocre scorer by star standards and a better total offensive player than most.....and that wasn’t the main reason he was on the court anyway.

Pippens offense is better than the defense of most of the scorers in history. By a lot.

[ShawkFactory]

Majerle had higher gamescore in the 93' Finals - gamescore means exactly nothing...

Ultimately, the 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option:



1998 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%
Smits....... 16.2 on 55%


1992 ECSF

Pippen...... 16.0 on 40%
X-man....... 18.6 on 50%


1990 ECF

Pippen..... 16.6 on 42%
Dumars.... 20.0 on 50%


Ultimately, Miller was leading teams to the ECF and Finals, while Pippen was barely .500 in 1995 before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat... So Miller carried teams further than Pippen because his performance was superior (see the OP).

Only PPG and FG% means something when discussing basketball players then?

The best player on the Pacers was outplayed by the Bulls second best player. That happened.

The series went 7 because of the Pacers brand. Talent-wise those teams are actually closer if you remove MJ.

[tpols]

Know how many people put up both more points and assists per game in his prime? For 6 years....

1
2
0
0
2
5


That is not being mediocre on offense. It’s just the way the internet changes standards to fit whatever the situation is. Merely not being an elite scorer and being a mediocre offensive player are like 40 miles apart.

I swear people act like the nba is nothing but superstars.

Pippen was a mediocre scorer by star standards and a better total offensive player than most.....and that wasn’t the main reason he was on the court anyway.

Pippens offense is better than the defense of most of the scorers in history. By a lot.

Teens scoring with like 7 dimes per game on average at best efficiency isn't great offensive production.

Reggie as a first option led teams farther than Pippen ever did because its much easier to find goons than elite offensive producers. And closers. Your boy literally sat his ass on a bench because a rookie was told he'd take the series defining shot over him.

And he made it.

[3ball]

Only PPG and FG% means something when discussing basketball players then?

The best player on the Pacers was outplayed by the Bulls second best player. That happened.

The series went 7 because of the Pacers brand. Talent-wise those teams are actually closer if you remove MJ.


The Pacers were built around Miller's shooting and the threat of his shooting, so they wouldn't be a good team or take the Bulls 7 games with a weak scorer/shooter like Pippen in Miller's place.. Pippen was just an athlete and wasn't a scorer - a completely lower dimension of offense from someone like Miller - the OP shows that Miller was drastically outplaying Pippen against the exact same comp

Ultimately, Smits outplayed Pippen, while Miller was locked down by Jordan and help defense just like Drexler, Dumars, Starks and nearly any SG that Jordan ever defended.. The Bulls wouldn't need to make such an effort to stop Pippen if he replaced Miller - defenses can let Pippen hit his max production of 22/5 and weak efficiency because it isn't a lot.

So again, the 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option (90' ECF.... 92' ECSF.... 98' ECF)

[ShawkFactory]

The Pacers were built around Miller's shooting and the threat of his shooting, so they wouldn't be a good team or take the Bulls 7 games with a weak scorer/shooter like Pippen in Miller's place.. Pippen was just an athlete and wasn't a scorer - a completely lower dimension of offense from someone like Miller.

So Smits outplayed Pippen, while Miller was locked down by Jordan and help defense just like Drexler, Dumars, Starks and nearly any SG that Jordan ever defended..

The Bulls wouldn't need to make such an effort to stop Pippen if he replaced Miller - defenses can let Pippen hit his max production of 22/5 because it isn't a lot.

Ultimately, the 3 times that the 90's Bulls went 7 games were all due to Pippen underperforming and getting outplayed by the opposing 2nd option (90' ECF.... 92' ECSF.... 98' ECF)

What about Kukoc outplaying Smits?

[JohnMax]

So you're saying Jordan won 6 rings with no help? So why didn't he win championships in the 80s?

Before you say Pippen, remember he's garbage and doesn't count. Why didn't he win on the pre-Pippen Bulls?

[3ball]

So you're saying Jordan won 6 rings with no help? So why didn't he win championships in the 80s?

Before you say Pippen, remember he's garbage and doesn't count. Why didn't he win on the pre-Pippen Bulls?


The 80's East required a super-team to win it - it wasn't until expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's that 2-star teams could win..

Pippen just came along at the right time by landing next to the goat in his prime in a 2-star vs 2-star format with time to grow alongside MJ.... If only Woolridge could've been so lucky

[Reggie43]

Only PPG and FG% means something when discussing basketball players then?

The best player on the Pacers was outplayed by the Bulls second best player. That happened.

The series went 7 because of the Pacers brand. Talent-wise those teams are actually closer if you remove MJ.

Dont want to pile on in this never ending cycle but those 1998 Pacers were a good/great team because of their depth, having the ability to field starter quality guys like Antonio, Jalen, Mckey and Travis off the bench.

Removing each of the teams best player would be an advantage for the Pacers because they are the more talented team from top to bottom. Pacers stretched the Bulls to seven on the strength of the Pacers inside play with Smits and the Davis bros outplaying their matchups in the paint.

[Kblaze8855]

Teens scoring with like 7 dimes per game on average at best efficiency isn't great offensive production.

Reggie as a first option led teams farther than Pippen ever did because its much easier to find goons than elite offensive producers. And closers. Your boy literally sat his ass on a bench because a rookie was told he'd take the series defining shot over him.

And he made it.

And having watched him do it Reggie himself still claimed Pippen is the player he most wanted to have the skills of because he’s the only player who can score 5 points and dominate. But of course Reggie was talking about basketball not points...because Reggie isn’t a 15 year old.

And what’s amusing to me is he said it in 96....which was before Scottie famously deleted Mark Jackson in the playoffs to disrupt the pacers whole offense while scoring not 5....but 4 points.

And it’s not like everyone watching didn’t see it happen and rave. Happened all the time. Scottie would just decide how to best defeat the other team and implement the strategy and have no stat you could point to later and prove it. But the players saw....




Pippen was the most dominant player on the court during an 85-79 win over the Pacers that gave the Bulls a 1-0 lead in the best-of-seven series.
Pippen shot 1-for-9 from the field and scored four points. But for most of his 40 minutes, he pressured Jackson from the moment he received the ball.

Initially, that helped delay the Pacers in setting up their offense. And, ultimately, the post-ups the 6-foot-3 Jackson used to destroy New York's smaller guards in the second round were not available against the 6-7 Pippen.
Jackson was so frustrated that he finished with seven turnovers. And while his overall line was impressive -- 12 points, seven rebounds, six assists -- he didn't record one assist over the final 28 minutes, 10 seconds



"Obviously, that hurt us offensively," Indiana coach Larry Bird (http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/sports/basketball/larry-bird-PESPT000607-topic.html) said. "This is the first time this year I have seen a player get on a point guard and not really foul him, but get his hands in there and dig out the ball. Next game we need to do a better job of getting Mark open going down the court."


Miller's and Smits' struggles were spurred by Pippen, who plotted the strategy with Jordan and Ron Harper (http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/sports/basketball/ron-harper-PESPT002989-topic.html)before the game. Pippen would guard Mark Jackson, Harper would chase Miller and Jordan would defend Chris Mullin (1-for-4, two points). The three presented the plan to Phil Jackson, who gladly accepted.
So intent was Pippen on the defensive end that he took just one shot in the second half. But the sacrifices made by the seven-time All-NBA defensive forward, who can effectively guard three positions, was a major reason the Bulls won the series opener.
"I knew at the beginning of the game that, sooner or later, my pressure was going to take its toll on him," Pippen said. "I could sense the frustration setting in."


Again....we are talking about basketball strategy and evaluation so I understand how you can’t get your head around these concepts....

Modern fans lost a lot of appreciation for what basketball really is once sports center came along and made a recap 4 dunks and 6 threes. So I don’t blame you. We failed you. We let your whole generation come up thinking basketball is points.

It’s the miseducation of an entire generation by the media and I really should focus my annoyance where it belongs.

You were never taught the game really. You will never understand a Pippen, Derek Mckey, Nate Mcmillian or guys like that who changed entire games and series with intelligence, communication, and imposing their will on defense.

But 99% of coaches are gonna take those types over the scorers. And it just so happens Pippen does it and scores....and can run an offense.

The understanding of what guys like Pippen, Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, and Kevin Garnett types were doing is simply beyond most kids of the and 1 age.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron was Pippen in the 11' Finals (18/7/6 and scared in the clutch)

But Wade couldn't win with that, just like Hakeem and Barkley couldn't in 1999 - only Jordan could win with that crap
He avg. 7 assists, not 6

[And1AllDay]

And having watched him do it Reggie himself still claimed Pippen is the player he most wanted to have the skills of because he’s the only player who can score 5 points and dominate. But of course Reggie was talking about basketball not points...because Reggie isn’t a 15 year old.

And what’s amusing to me is he said it in 96....which was before Scottie famously deleted Mark Jackson in the playoffs to disrupt the pacers whole offense while scoring not 5....but 4 points.

And it’s not like everyone watching didn’t see it happen and rave. Happened all the time. Scottie would just decide how to best defeat the other team and implement the strategy and have no stat you could point to later and prove it. But the players saw....






Again....we are talking about basketball strategy and evaluation so I understand how you can’t get your head around these concepts....

Modern fans lost a lot of appreciation for what basketball really is once sports center came along and made a recap 4 dunks and 6 threes. So I don’t blame you. We failed you. We let your whole generation come up thinking basketball is points.

It’s the miseducation of an entire generation by the media and I really should focus my annoyance where it belongs.

You were never taught the game really. You will never understand a Pippen, Derek Mckey, Nate Mcmillian or guys like that who changed entire games and series with intelligence, communication, and imposing their will on defense.

But 99% of coaches are gonna take those types over the scorers. And it just so happens Pippen does it and scores....and can run an offense.

The understanding of what guys like Pippen, Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, and Kevin Garnett types were doing is simply beyond most kids of the and 1 age.

https://i.postimg.cc/2jPHTQ5t/OoOoo.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/2jPHTQ5t/OoOoo.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/2jPHTQ5t/OoOoo.gifhttps://i.postimg.cc/2jPHTQ5t/OoOoo.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/2jPHTQ5t/OoOoo.gif

[Hey Yo]

The 80's East required a super-team to win it - it wasn't until expansion spread the talent around evenly in the 90's that 2-star teams could win..

Pippen just came along at the right time by landing next to the goat in his prime in a 2-star vs 2-star format with time to grow alongside MJ.... If only Woolridge could've been so lucky

Detroit wasnt a superteam when they won their B2B titles.

[ShawkFactory]

Dont want to pile on in this never ending cycle but those 1998 Pacers were a good/great team because of their depth, having the ability to field starter quality guys like Antonio, Jalen, Mckey and Travis off the bench.

Removing each of the teams best player would be an advantage for the Pacers because they are the more talented team from top to bottom. Pacers stretched the Bulls to seven on the strength of the Pacers inside play with Smits and the Davis bros outplaying their matchups in the paint.

Yea, I know.

I’m talking to 3ball. The rules are different with him.

[Reggie43]

Yea, I know.

I’m talking to 3ball. The rules are different with him.

Pretty sure he wouldnt admit to anything even if you play by his rules lol.

[tpols]

And having watched him do it Reggie himself still claimed Pippen is the player he most wanted to have the skills of because he’s the only player who can score 5 points and dominate. But of course Reggie was talking about basketball not points...because Reggie isn’t a 15 year old.

And what’s amusing to me is he said it in 96....which was before Scottie famously deleted Mark Jackson in the playoffs to disrupt the pacers whole offense while scoring not 5....but 4 points.

And it’s not like everyone watching didn’t see it happen and rave. Happened all the time. Scottie would just decide how to best defeat the other team and implement the strategy and have no stat you could point to later and prove it. But the players saw....






Again....we are talking about basketball strategy and evaluation so I understand how you can’t get your head around these concepts....

Modern fans lost a lot of appreciation for what basketball really is once sports center came along and made a recap 4 dunks and 6 threes. So I don’t blame you. We failed you. We let your whole generation come up thinking basketball is points.

It’s the miseducation of an entire generation by the media and I really should focus my annoyance where it belongs.

You were never taught the game really. You will never understand a Pippen, Derek Mckey, Nate Mcmillian or guys like that who changed entire games and series with intelligence, communication, and imposing their will on defense.

But 99% of coaches are gonna take those types over the scorers. And it just so happens Pippen does it and scores....and can run an offense.

The understanding of what guys like Pippen, Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, and Kevin Garnett types were doing is simply beyond most kids of the and 1 age.

I appreciate the context but do you really think its fair to say shutting down Mark Jackson is a corner stone achievement? He made one all star game in his entire career. That's Mo Will shit.

Now imagine if Reggie had a true GOAT besides him like Pippen had MJ. imagine if he had Magic feeding him the ball. Or LeBron. How would that look? Instead of Mark Jackson.

Pippen had Jordan as his lead dog. Who did Reggie have?

[Reggie43]

So who is gonna post the quote from Reggie about who he most wished he could play like?

Out of all the players in the 1996 Dream team he wanted to be Pippen which was a question asked to all the players in the interview during their preparation for the Olympics. Basically giving respect to an insanely good but underrated teammate.

Not sure if he gives the same answer if the choice is out of all the players ever lol. Reading his book he was more obsessed with Jordan actually and the guys I know he idolized were Jerry West and George Gervin among others.

[Kblaze8855]

He said similar things much later. Like tnt era. Reggie talked similarly about a few all around types. I feel like I remember him gushing over Kidd for similar reasons. And you can imagine why a guy like him would admire that style. He was unselfish to a fault himself.

[light]

https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Pip-vs-Miller.png

If the hall of fame was more discerning Reggie Miller would not be in it while the great Scottie Pippen would remain.

[ShawkFactory]

I appreciate the context but do you really think its fair to say shutting down Mark Jackson is a corner stone achievement? He made one all star game in his entire career. That's Mo Will shit.

Now imagine if Reggie had a true GOAT besides him like Pippen had MJ. imagine if he had Magic feeding him the ball. Or LeBron. How would that look? Instead of Mark Jackson.

Pippen had Jordan as his lead dog. Who did Reggie have?

What the fvck would Reggie and MJ have in common on the floor that MJ and Pippen didn’t?

[97 bulls]

And having watched him do it Reggie himself still claimed Pippen is the player he most wanted to have the skills of because he’s the only player who can score 5 points and dominate. But of course Reggie was talking about basketball not points...because Reggie isn’t a 15 year old.

And what’s amusing to me is he said it in 96....which was before Scottie famously deleted Mark Jackson in the playoffs to disrupt the pacers whole offense while scoring not 5....but 4 points.

And it’s not like everyone watching didn’t see it happen and rave. Happened all the time. Scottie would just decide how to best defeat the other team and implement the strategy and have no stat you could point to later and prove it. But the players saw....






Again....we are talking about basketball strategy and evaluation so I understand how you can’t get your head around these concepts....

Modern fans lost a lot of appreciation for what basketball really is once sports center came along and made a recap 4 dunks and 6 threes. So I don’t blame you. We failed you. We let your whole generation come up thinking basketball is points.

It’s the miseducation of an entire generation by the media and I really should focus my annoyance where it belongs.

You were never taught the game really. You will never understand a Pippen, Derek Mckey, Nate Mcmillian or guys like that who changed entire games and series with intelligence, communication, and imposing their will on defense.

But 99% of coaches are gonna take those types over the scorers. And it just so happens Pippen does it and scores....and can run an offense.

The understanding of what guys like Pippen, Kidd, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton, and Kevin Garnett types were doing is simply beyond most kids of the and 1 age.

Slow Clap.

I personally think it's this video game era that has twisted the minds of todays basketball fans.

Pippen was good for cutting off the head of the snake. Whether it be Magic in 91, or Penny in 96, or Stockton in 98.

Pippen is probably the most unique player the NBA has ever seen.
No other player could run an offense while anchoring the defense at a high level and give you 20pts and 8 rbds.

[And1AllDay]

https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Pip-vs-Miller.png

If the hall of fame was more discerning Reggie Miller would not be in it while the great Scottie Pippen would remain.

thats the end of that :oldlol:

[mehyaM24]

What the fvck would Reggie and MJ have in common on the floor that MJ and Pippen didn’t?

good postseason scoring & efficiency. pippen's scoring numbers fell off in the playoffs, especially in the second 3-peat. miller would have filled that #2 role well playing off ball with jordan. overall, i think miller in pippen's place probably net similar results. chicago gets worse on defense but better offensively.

[97 bulls]

good postseason scoring & efficiency. pippen's scoring numbers fell off in the playoffs, especially in the second 3-peat. miller would have filled that #2 role well playing off ball with jordan. overall, i think miller in pippen's place probably net similar results. chicago gets worse on defense but better offensively.

No way. I think they're successful. But no way do they not miss a beat with Miller in place of Pippen. You gain a slight advantage in scoring. But you lose rebounding, the PG, defense.

Pippens numbers fell of because of injury.

[mehyaM24]

No way. I think they're successful. But no way do they not miss a beat with Miller in place of Pippen. You gain a slight advantage in scoring. But you lose rebounding, the PG, defense.

Pippens numbers fell of because of injury.

bulls defense would have still been good without pippen. in 98, chicago was top 3 in defensive rating. and that's with pippen missing HALF the year. maybe they don't win 6 rings, but chicago would still win a handful of them. they'd just look different doing it.

pippens injuries are exactly why having miller, the superior playoff scorer, benefits them.

[3ball]

Pippen was good for cutting off the head of the snake. Whether it be Magic in 91, or Penny in 96, or Stockton in 98.



.


Pippen didn't guard Stockton... EVER... Jordan did

Jordan was the primary defender on Drexler, Magic and Miller, while Pippen only guarded Penny (and got destroyed)






I personally think it's this video game era that has twisted the minds of todays basketball fans.





Mark Jackson was the slowest PG in history and a low-producing bum - imagine Paul George averaging 16 on 39% and thinking that defending Jalen Brunson makes up for it... :yaohappy:




Slow Clap.

I personally think it's this video game era that has twisted the minds of todays basketball fans.





Mark Jackson got his regular trash numbers - it was Miller that got shut down and underperformed, but Jordan's goat performance is taken for granted as usual.

anyone that watched the series knows that Pippen was instantly removed from defending the PG when Travis Best entered the game - Jordan and Kerr quickly took over the defensive duties to prevent Pippen from losing the game against a quick guard that he had no chance against.

Ultimately, Pippen's weak offense and inability to guard Best or Miller caused Jordan to completely carry the Bulls on both ends.

[3ball]

Pippen didn't guard Stockton... EVER... Jordan did

Jordan was the primary defender on Drexler, Magic and Miller, while Pippen only guarded Penny (and got destroyed)




Mark Jackson was the slowest PG in history and a low-producing bum - imagine Paul George averaging 16 on 39% against Dallas and thinking that defending Jalen Brunson makes up for it... :yaohappy:




Mark Jackson got his regular trash numbers - it was Miller that got shut down and underperformed, but Jordan's goat performance is taken for granted as usual.

anyone that watched the series knows that Pippen was instantly removed from defending the PG when Travis Best entered the game - Jordan and Kerr quickly took over the defensive duties to prevent Pippen from losing the game against a quick guard that he had no chance against.

Ultimately, Pippen's weak offense and inability to guard Best or Miller caused Jordan to completely carry the Bulls on both ends.


just wanted to highlight that the bolded above was the best argument offered for Pippen itt

aka Pippen was trash and nowhere near Miller

[AirBonner]

just wanted to highlight that the bolded above was the best argument offered for Pippen itt

aka Pippen was trash and nowhere near Miller
What’s interesting is Porzingis is far worse than Pippen yet Luka is about to defeat a MJ Pippen clippers team

[Reggie43]

Jordan got killed in the clutch by that bum's backup (Best). Three straight games Jordan faltered/ got exposed in the clutch on the Pacers homecourt. Refs saved him in game seven when he was getting shutdown by Reggie Miller of all people holding him to 9/25 fgs on 36%

[3ball]

Jordan got killed in the clutch by that bum's backup (Best). Three straight games Jordan faltered/ got exposed in the clutch on the Pacers homecourt. Refs saved him in game seven when he was getting shutdown by Reggie Miller of all people holding him to 9/25 fgs on 36%


Jordan was infact getting destroyed by Best on some key possessions.

But that's the point - Jordan was assigned to defend the real PG in that series who got all the clutch minutes (Best), or the top scorer (HOF miller), while the injured Pippen was put on slow-poke Jackson.

So Jordan carried the Bulls on both ends over a top 5 SRS team (good team) with poor scoring and efficiency from his sidekick.. This was routine for Jordan, while Lebron never did it (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)

[3ball]

What’s interesting is Porzingis is far worse than Pippen yet Luka is about to defeat a MJ Pippen clippers team


Pippen was an 8 ppg bench-warmer in 1988 and nowhere near Porzingas, Hardaway, and about 5 other Mavericks..... Yet MJ made the 2nd Round because he averaged 45/5/5/3/2..

So Pippen was an 8 ppg rookie that MJ carried to the 2nd Round or ECF, while Luka needs about 7 or 8 teammates better than that.

Btw, Jordan's performance occurred in a format that didn't give the perimeter player control over the game like today's perimeter-friendly format

[3ball]

What’s interesting is Porzingis is far worse than Pippen yet Luka is about to defeat a MJ Pippen clippers team


^^^ didn't age well

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Smits/Miller nearly beat the 98' Bulls and nearly took the 00' Lakers to 7 games, so Smits/MJ would win every year with that Pacer cast.

Heck, Stockton/Malone were basically B2B champs, so Stockton/MJ would win every year.. Stockton is 8th all-time in BPM and has twice as many All-NBA as Pippen.

Pippen is just a low-producing bum that came along after the super-team 80's, when expansion spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win (90's).. Obviously, anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format

[tpols]

Reggie Miller crushes Pippen. He was simply much better at basketball. If Reggie was on the Bulls in Scotties place, it would be like Curry & KD. They would totally smoke teams instead of having scares of losing.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie Miller crushes Pippen. He was simply much better at basketball. If Reggie was on the Bulls in Scotties place, it would be like Curry & KD. They would totally smoke teams instead of having scares of losing.

If basketball is nothing but shooting and off ball movement. As long as basketball is those things plus ball handling, passing, slashing, play calling, man to man d, off ball d, and rebounding....no. Reggie is better at what 7 year olds think basketball is. Well no. 7 year olds still think basketball involves handling the ball. Prime Reggie couldn’t play the point as well as Pippen did in like 2003. Just didn’t have those skills. He did very specific things well. He didn’t play the total game as well as a Pippen.

Throw in that Reggie never actually scored that much and it’s not even close to a question. If you’re gonna be worse than the other side at almost all aspects of the game....score a lot at least. Dudes been talking up 23-25 point “runs” that end in losing after 82 games of 19ppg way too much. You’d think he was Steph or Harden the way mediocre point totals get brought up to counter a lack of many basic guard skills or being a noteworthy defender.

I like my one dimensional players to be top of the line in it if you don’t mind.

If all you do is score....let me count on more than low 20s a game. I’m happy to get 19-22 from a Pippen, Payton, Kidd, KG, Duncan, Magic, or whoever. Even a Ron Artest. A Manu type who plays a large total game role and makes plays. If you aren’t a scorer I’m happy to get 19. If that’s your only reason for being....eh.

Still happy grading on a normal player scale. Superstar scale? Reggie scored less than virtually anyone known for nothing else.

The guys who don’t do shit else are generally gonna give me more than 22 or whatever. And the outcome of games does not care how efficiently you scored 23 when you lose by 9. But you have shown to be too limited in scope to consider such things even when Reggies own coach says he can’t be unselfish when it’s his job to score and he needs to go get the ball even when he can’t get open. But 9/14 with a couple threes and making 5 of 5 free throws sure looks good to a stat nerd.

Looks bad when your team scores 82 and Travis Best had to try to takeover for like 8 minutes though.

It all seems a little much for you to get your head around for whatever reason. The shooting percentages make it all so simple. Why try to think at all I suppose....

[ShawkFactory]

Yea people act like Reggie was like a 25 PPG guy or something

[Kblaze8855]

You hear a lot about playoff averages when in 18 seasons he had exactly one playoffs of 25ppg that wasn’t a first round loss. You’d think 44 minutes a game losing a series in 4 was some
historic shit when you have 30 points in a blowout loss. Dudes really think an efficient 23 counts more on the scoreboard than scoring 30 as if every shot you don’t take is somehow converted to a make by a teammate who can’t score like you.

Give me an efficient 22 from Joe Dumars and I’m delighted. Incredible defender and a solid backup point. The points are gravy. He often plays well when he has 9 points. You aren’t top of the line in other areas I’m not bending the knee over low 20s.

[ShawkFactory]

I don’t think anyone reasonable would take Bradley Beal over Jimmy Butler either. Regardless of how much they score in a particular game or series

[tpols]

If basketball is nothing but shooting and off ball movement. As long as basketball is those things plus ball handling, passing, slashing, play calling, man to man d, off ball d, and rebounding....no. Reggie is better at what 7 year olds think basketball is. Well no. 7 year olds still think basketball involves handling the ball. Prime Reggie couldn’t play the point as well as Pippen did in like 2003. Just didn’t have those skills. He did very specific things well. He didn’t play the total game as well as a Pippen.

Throw in that Reggie never actually scored that much and it’s not even close to a question. If you’re gonna be worse than the other side at almost all aspects of the game....score a lot at least. Dudes been talking up 23-25 point “runs” that end in losing after 82 games of 19ppg way too much. You’d think he was Steph or Harden the way mediocre point totals get brought up to counter a lack of many basic guard skills or being a noteworthy defender.

I like my one dimensional players to be top of the line in it if you don’t mind.

If all you do is score....let me count on more than low 20s a game. I’m happy to get 19-22 from a Pippen, Payton, Kidd, KG, Duncan, Magic, or whoever. Even a Ron Artest. A Manu type who plays a large total game role and makes plays. If you aren’t a scorer I’m happy to get 19. If that’s your only reason for being....eh.

Still happy grading on a normal player scale. Superstar scale? Reggie scored less than virtually anyone known for nothing else.

The guys who don’t do shit else are generally gonna give me more than 22 or whatever. And the outcome of games does not care how efficiently you scored 23 when you lose by 9. But you have shown to be too limited in scope to consider such things even when Reggies own coach says he can’t be unselfish when it’s his job to score and he needs to go get the ball even when he can’t get open. But 9/14 with a couple threes and making 5 of 5 free throws sure looks good to a stat nerd.

Looks bad when your team scores 82 and Travis Best had to try to takeover for like 8 minutes though.

It all seems a little much for you to get your head around for whatever reason. The shooting percentages make it all so simple. Why try to think at all I suppose....

Reggie scored way more than Pippen in the playoffs ~ career 24 ppg to 17 ppg on far better efficiency. And ridiculously better clutch performances.

Pippens strengths were replicable by defensive role players. He didn't have cream of the crop offensive talent. The Bulls could have surrounded MJ and Reggie with a field of defensive goons and easily had the best offense and defense in the league.

[tpols]

Yea people act like Reggie was like a 25 PPG guy or something

He averaged 24 ppg on 120 ORTG from 1990 to 2002 with a 140+ game playoff sample size. In an era with suppressed scoring where games ended in the 80s and 90s,

Your comment is wholely disingenuous.

[Reggie43]

Guys get triggered when somebody overrates him then proceed to act like he was some run off the mill one dimensional scorer that did nothing else to help his team win.

Six Conference Finals trips, once in the Finals while averaging 24ppg in his prime with insane shooting percentages pretty much speaks for itself on how good he was not to mention the leadership, tough mentality and being a prideful and feisty defender.

Jordan himself called him out as the one player he hated playing against because of his dirty defensive tactics and his type of physicality on offense.

Guys penalize him for being unselfish but they fail to realize that it is that one attribute that made his teams tougher to defend and also helped in developing insane chemistry. Imagine a Pacers team wherein Miller waves off Smits to play iso ball ala Paul Pierce instead of setting him up and spacing the floor for him? Smits impact basically turns into Ilgauskas in that scenario while making them more predictable to defend.

Having a Reggie Miller on your team allows guys to play their natural roles, making plays for themselves while being helped by his spacing/gravity. Him not shooting for long stretches because he is willing to setup the guy with the hot hand or somebody who has a mismatch should be deemed as a strength instead of a weakness.

Thats the thing that enabled them to be contenders for a long time because of a team wide unselfishness, sacrificing and playing for one another.

Its not a coincidence that in Dream teams II and III he basically played the most mins ahead of his more talented, athletic and versatile teammates because coaches realize he was very coachable, had great leadership, fundamentally sound and will always play the right way.

[3ball]

Klay gets 22 ppg as 2nd or 3rd option - he'd easily get 25-30 as 1st option.... and Reggie was a comparable shooter with superior overall scoring - Reggie hit a lot of 2-pointers via a deft post game and pure scoring game.. he was superior to Klay and led teams on deep, legendary runs as alpha 1st option.

If Reggie played in today's 3-point machine format, he would get 8-12 attempts per game like today's best shooters, and 70% of them would be "open" like Curry's, according to NBA.com.... and 80% of the LEAGUE'S threes are open - that's what today's strategy/format does

Reggie is ideal for today's game

[97 bulls]

Reggie scored way more than Pippen in the playoffs ~ career 24 ppg to 17 ppg on far better efficiency. And ridiculously better clutch performances.

Pippens strengths were replicable by defensive role players. He didn't have cream of the crop offensive talent. The Bulls could have surrounded MJ and Reggie with a field of defensive goons and easily had the best offense and defense in the league.

You know you have a weak argument when its centered around claims that are unsubstantiated.

[MadDog]

Miller was great in the playoffs. Not all, but there are a number of years I'd take him over Pippen. Reggie also played elite, deep into his 30s

[97 bulls]

He averaged 24 ppg on 120 ORTG from 1990 to 2002 with a 140+ game playoff sample size. In an era with suppressed scoring where games ended in the 80s and 90s,

Your comment is wholely disingenuous.

But that's all he did though. Hes a career 18/3/3 guy lol. And his defense left something to be desired as well.

[3ball]

You know you have a weak argument when its centered around claims that are unsubstantiated.


Today's spacing makes most threes open, and players get more OF them

So Reggie would dominate today's era more than he did in the 90's, when his futuristic threes had deep, legendary runs with no all-star teammates

[97 bulls]

Today's spacing makes most threes open, and players get more OF them

So Reggie would dominate today's era more than he already did in the 90's, when he had no all-star teammates...

And so would Pippen even more. His elite athleticism, finishing ability, resounding and passing, would serve him well I'm todays league. And hed be an even better defender in todays league where he doesnt have to worry about illegal defense so he could freely roam.

[Hey Yo]

Why are you conveniently leaving out assists and FGA?
And lmao at using usage against Pippen when he’s a much better playmaker than Miller.

Imagine thinking Reggie still avg 26 playing next to MJ. His FGA would be cut in half and wouldn't come close to replicating Pippen defence or running the offense.

[97 bulls]

Imagine thinking Reggie still avg 26 playing next to MJ. His FGA would be cut in half and wouldn't come close to replicating Pippen defence or running the offense.

Lol exactly.

[tpols]

You know you have a weak argument when its centered around claims that are unsubstantiated.

Elaborate.

Reggies productions destroy Pippens. And he was far fiestier than most people want to believe on defense. While destroying pippen on offense and in the clutch.

[MadDog]

Guys get triggered when somebody overrates him then proceed to act like he was some run off the mill one dimensional scorer that did nothing else to help his team win.

Six Conference Finals trips, once in the Finals while averaging 24ppg in his prime with insane shooting percentages pretty much speaks for itself on how good he was not to mention the leadership, tough mentality and being a prideful and feisty defender.

Jordan himself called him out as the one player he hated playing against because of his dirty defensive tactics and his type of physicality on offense.

Guys penalize him for being unselfish but they fail to realize that it is that one attribute that made his teams tougher to defend and also helped in developing insane chemistry. Imagine a Pacers team wherein Miller waves off Smits to play iso ball ala Paul Pierce instead of setting him up and spacing the floor for him? Smits impact basically turns into Ilgauskas in that scenario while making them more predictable to defend.

Having a Reggie Miller on your team allows guys to play their natural roles, making plays for themselves while being helped by his spacing/gravity. Him not shooting for long stretches because he is willing to setup the guy with the hot hand or somebody who has a mismatch should be deemed as a strength instead of a weakness.

Thats the thing that enabled them to be contenders for a long time because of a team wide unselfishness, sacrificing and playing for one another.

Its not a coincidence that in Dream teams II and III he basically played the most mins ahead of his more talented, athletic and versatile teammates because coaches realize he was very coachable, had great leadership, fundamentally sound and will always play the right way.

Nail meet hammer. Good post bud. Reggie could play with anyone, because he was brilliant off ball. Like you said, Jordan respected him and probably wanted a deadaim scorer. Understandably too. Jordan did all the scoring in the playoffs lol

[97 bulls]

Elaborate.

Reggies productions destroy Pippens. And he was far fiestier than most people want to believe on defense. While destroying pippen on offense and in the clutch.

Miller is a career 18 ppg scorer Pippen 16. That hardly constitutes "destroys". Factor in defense, rebounding, and playmaking and Pippen clearly brings more to the table.

I dont think Miller and Jordan are a good fit.

And Pippen was just as clutch on defense as Millee was on offense.

[tpols]

Miller is a career 18 ppg scorer Pippen 16. That hardly constitutes "destroys". Factor in defense, rebounding, and playmaking and Pippen clearly brings more to the table.

I dont think Miller and Jordan are a good fit.

And Pippen was just as clutch on defense as Millee was on offense.

You're lying.

Post the links for their playoff careers.

Reggie destroyed Pippen both volume and efficiency and clutch wise contextually.

Filling in defense isn't hard... guys like Bowen, Ben Wallace, Rodman, Dray etc. were all 2nd rounders. A guy like PJ Tucker is dirt cheap.

Reggie Miller is unreplaceable.

[97 bulls]

You're lying.

Post the links for their playoff careers.

Reggie destroyed Pippen both volume and efficiency and clutch wise contextually.

Filling in defense isn't hard... guys like Bowen, Ben Wallace, Rodman, Dray etc. were all 2nd rounders. A guy like PJ Tucker is dirt cheap.

Reggie Miller is unreplaceable.

I was talking about the regular season. For the playoffs,
Miller was a 21/3/3 player. Pippen was an 18/7/5 player and the far superior defender. Advantage Pippen

The rest of your post is nonsense.

[Reggie43]

For the record and I have said this before Pippen was obviously better but if I am looking for a player to lead my franchise its not that clear cut because Its hard to go for a guy that would clash with management with all sorts of contract disputes and trade demands while also having problems with pressure situations on the court.

Pippen peaked higher as a player obviously but I would rather have Miller's 18 years of stability, great leadership, intangibles, while making his team a contender as long as he can with barely any drama.

[97 bulls]

For the record and I have said this before Pippen was obviously better but if I am looking for a player to lead my franchise its not that clear cut because Its hard to go for a guy that would clash with management with all sorts of contract disputes and trade demands while also having problems with pressure situations on the court.

Pippen peaked higher as a player obviously but I would rather have Miller's 18 years of stability, great leadership, intangibles, while making his team a contender as long as he can with barely any drama.

To be fair. Jordan, Horace Grant, Scott Williams, and Phil Jackson had a problem with the Bulls management.

[tpols]

I was talking about the regular season. For the playoffs,
Miller was a 21/3/3 player. Pippen was an 18/7/5 player and the far superior defender. Advantage Pippen

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Why would you do that? Reggies prime offensive numbers killed Pippens.

Reggies playoff scoring and offense blows pippens away. As do his contextual clutch performances. Let me refresh your memory.


https://youtu.be/MRLysMEHokI

Why would you cop out like that?

Pippen did this by comparison.


https://youtu.be/bYcjCoy7R4I

:biggums:

[MadDog]

For the record and I have said this before Pippen was obviously better but if I am looking for a player to lead my franchise its not that clear cut because Its hard to go for a guy that would clash with management with all sorts of contract disputes and trade demands while also having problems with pressure situations on the court.

Pippen peaked higher as a player obviously but I would rather have Miller's 18 years of stability, great leadership, intangibles, while making his team a contender as long as he can with barely any drama.

That's fair. Pippen wasn't particularly a clutch scorer, while Reggie was. Fans bring up the regular-season. But both were in MANY postseason games. Common theme in all of them was Miller hitting big shots. Chicago's defense was also elite in 98, and didn't miss a beat when Pippen sat for half the year. If you were to swap the 2, the Bulls would've been just as potent.

By the 90s, Jordan's take the bull by horns approach peaked.

[Kblaze8855]

Guys get triggered when somebody overrates him then proceed to act like he was some run off the mill one dimensional scorer that did nothing else to help his team win.

Six Conference Finals trips, once in the Finals while averaging 24ppg in his prime with insane shooting percentages pretty much speaks for itself on how good he was not to mention the leadership, tough mentality and being a prideful and feisty defender.

Jordan himself called him out as the one player he hated playing against because of his dirty defensive tactics and his type of physicality on offense.

Guys penalize him for being unselfish but they fail to realize that it is that one attribute that made his teams tougher to defend and also helped in developing insane chemistry. Imagine a Pacers team wherein Miller waves off Smits to play iso ball ala Paul Pierce instead of setting him up and spacing the floor for him? Smits impact basically turns into Ilgauskas in that scenario while making them more predictable to defend.

Having a Reggie Miller on your team allows guys to play their natural roles, making plays for themselves while being helped by his spacing/gravity. Him not shooting for long stretches because he is willing to setup the guy with the hot hand or somebody who has a mismatch should be deemed as a strength instead of a weakness.

Thats the thing that enabled them to be contenders for a long time because of a team wide unselfishness, sacrificing and playing for one another.

Its not a coincidence that in Dream teams II and III he basically played the most mins ahead of his more talented, athletic and versatile teammates because coaches realize he was very coachable, had great leadership, fundamentally sound and will always play the right way.


As always the reasons used to make Reggie better than you yourself say he is:



I agree that he would be barely a top 20 players in the 90s in terms of overall talent/skill.


^
While back



The reasons used are little more than cliche sports fluff ignoring ability to play the sport. Especially onto the coaches. Larry Brown said Reggie was not a leader “At all” and much preferred Derek Mckey as a total player and Larry Bird many many many times spoke at length about how Reggies unselfishness hurt the team but here we are 20-25 years later acting like his leadership and unselfishness were unquestioned positives to bump him above his ability.

The total rewrite on the opinions of the time has never been crazier than with this guy. Coaches love him.....oh but they put Mookie Blaylock, Hersey Hawkins, Kenny Anderson, and so on over him. His coaches loved his leadership....yet his two best both critiqued his leadership in public. He played the right way....yet the guy who made that a famous term is on record having had to sit him down when he was 28(not 22....deep into his career) and tell him he had to change his approach and play less like a star and let the team win with him in a lesser role. Become defense first. His unselfishness makes them go....his actual coach calls him out all the time saying “We can’t win when he takes 9 shots” and “He has to go GET the ball” when he’d watch role players lose them big games. Whatever is true....there was certainly no consensus from his coaches.

Every narrative around him is fabricated to some degree and the only people who don’t realize it are those who weren’t there at the time. You I respect because you’re a real fan who credits the team and just defend your guy like I’d expect a fan to. I actually read all your posts because I find you rational which is rare....but fact is....there’s a whole lotta smoke and mirror to camouflage a guy who wasn’t all thaaaaat respected in his day and would usually rank the players he’s compared to here above himself despite having a massive ego(well earned ego for the record).

Great player. Possible mvp candidate in today’s league....but the way he’s propped up these days is just dishonesty and cliche fluff.

[Reggie43]

That's fair. Pippen wasn't particularly a clutch scorer, while Reggie was. Fans bring up the regular-season. But both were in MANY postseason games. Common theme in all of them was Miller hitting big shots. Chicago's defense was also elite in 98, and didn't miss a beat with him sitting half the year. If you were to swap the 2, the Bulls would've been just as potent.

By the 90s, Jordan's take the bull by horns approach peaked.

Miller on the Bulls definitely wins multiple rings given that the team also makes changes to their personnel to adjust. Lets say because they lost a goat level defender they then proceed to trade Kukoc for a Derrick Mckey type player and a few other tweaks I could see them winning 3 rings atleast with Jordan having more playmaking duties and putting extra effort defensively but in turn benefitting from the spacing, gravity and offball movement and clutch play that a Reggie Miller provides.

[HoopsNY]

Miller on the Bulls definitely wins multiple rings given that the team also makes changes to their personnel to adjust. Lets say because they lost a goat level defender they then proceed to trade Kukoc for a Derrick Mckey type player and a few other tweaks I could see them winning 3 rings atleast with Jordan having more playmaking duties and putting extra effort defensively but in turn benefitting from the spacing, gravity and offball movement and clutch play that a Reggie Miller provides.

A Jordan/McKey/Miller/Rodman/Longley lineup wins every year. In fact, they win in 1995, too, even without Rodman.

[Reggie43]

As always the reasons used to make Reggie better than you yourself say he is:





^
While back



The reasons used are little more than cliche sports fluff ignoring ability to play the sport. Especially onto the coaches. Larry Brown said Reggie was not a leader “At all” and much preferred Derek Mckey as a total player and Larry Bird many many many times spoke at length about how Reggies unselfishness hurt the team but here we are 20-25 years later acting like his leadership and unselfishness were unquestioned positives to bump him above his ability.

The total rewrite on the opinions of the time has never been crazier than with this guy. Coaches love him.....oh but they put Mookie Blaylock, Hersey Hawkins, Kenny Anderson, and so on over him. His coaches loved his leadership....yet his two best both critiqued his leadership in public. He played the right way....yet the guy who made that a famous term is on record having had to sit him down when he was 28(not 22....deep into his career) and tell him he had to change his approach and play less like a star and let the team win with him in a lesser role. Become defense first. His unselfishness makes them go....his actual coach calls him out all the time saying “We can’t win when he takes 9 shots” and “He has to go GET the ball” when he’d watch role players lose them big games. Whatever is true....there was certainly no consensus from his coaches.

Every narrative around him is fabricated to some degree and the only people who don’t realize it are those who weren’t there at the time. You I respect because you’re a real fan who credits the team and just defend your guy like I’d expect a fan to. I actually read all your posts because I find you rational which is rare....but fact is....there’s a whole lotta smoke and mirror to camouflage a guy who wasn’t all thaaaaat respected in his day and would usually rank the players he’s compared to here above himself despite having a massive ego(well earned ego for the record).

Great player. Possible mvp candidate in today’s league....but the way he’s propped up these days is just dishonesty and cliche fluff.

Still clinging to out of context quotes? Larry Brown has had something bad to say about everyone, would you believe evrything he says or only those to suit your agenda? Pretty sure he has a ton of quotes to contradict what he has previously said. Same with George Karl and especially Phil Jackson who probably was using his zen tactics just to get back at Miller for talking trash to his team.

[HoopsNY]

As always the reasons used to make Reggie better than you yourself say he is:





^
While back



The reasons used are little more than cliche sports fluff ignoring ability to play the sport. Especially onto the coaches. Larry Brown said Reggie was not a leader “At all” and much preferred Derek Mckey as a total player and Larry Bird many many many times spoke at length about how Reggies unselfishness hurt the team but here we are 20-25 years later acting like his leadership and unselfishness were unquestioned positives to bump him above his ability.

The total rewrite on the opinions of the time has never been crazier than with this guy. Coaches love him.....oh but they put Mookie Blaylock, Hersey Hawkins, Kenny Anderson, and so on over him. His coaches loved his leadership....yet his two best both critiqued his leadership in public. He played the right way....yet the guy who made that a famous term is on record having had to sit him down when he was 28(not 22....deep into his career) and tell him he had to change his approach and play less like a star and let the team win with him in a lesser role. Become defense first. His unselfishness makes them go....his actual coach calls him out all the time saying “We can’t win when he takes 9 shots” and “He has to go GET the ball” when he’d watch role players lose them big games. Whatever is true....there was certainly no consensus from his coaches.

Every narrative around him is fabricated to some degree and the only people who don’t realize it are those who weren’t there at the time. You I respect because you’re a real fan who credits the team and just defend your guy like I’d expect a fan to. I actually read all your posts because I find you rational which is rare....but fact is....there’s a whole lotta smoke and mirror to camouflage a guy who wasn’t all thaaaaat respected in his day and would usually rank the players he’s compared to here above himself despite having a massive ego(well earned ego for the record).

Great player. Possible mvp candidate in today’s league....but the way he’s propped up these days is just dishonesty and cliche fluff.

Yea but the discussion isn't about Miller leading a Jordan-less Bulls for the entirety of Pippen's tenure. The discussion is what happens when you swap Pippen and Miller, particularly in years like 1994 and 1995.

Intuition tells me Chicago wins in both 1994 and 1995, and probably even wins in 1990.

[MadDog]

Miller on the Bulls definitely wins multiple rings given that the team also makes changes to their personnel to adjust. Lets say because they lost a goat level defender they then proceed to trade Kukoc for a Derrick Mckey type player and a few other tweaks I could see them winning 3 rings atleast with Jordan having more playmaking duties and putting extra effort defensively but in turn benefitting from the spacing, gravity and offball movement and clutch play that a Reggie Miller provides.


A Jordan/McKey/Miller/Rodman/Longley lineup wins every year. In fact, they win in 1995, too, even without Rodman.

Mckey is a good mention. With him, Chicago would still be a defensive powerhouse. More dynamic on offense though.

[HoopsNY]

3ball isn't wrong about this one (for once). When you examine what Miller did, in the same years, to what Pippen did, especially in years like 1990, 1994, 1995, and 2000, it's evident who would be the better supporting player.

This doesn't mean that Miller was the better overall player, but it does make him a better fit as a #2 next to MJ, especially his ability to play off the ball and his immense clutch factor.

[Hey Yo]

Yea but the discussion isn't about Miller leading a Jordan-less Bulls for the entirety of Pippen's tenure. The discussion is what happens when you swap Pippen and Miller, particularly in years like 1994 and 1995.

Intuition tells me Chicago wins in both 1994 and 1995, and probably even wins in 1990.

Reggie cant run an offensive or play the defense like Pippen provided.

No chance he wins in 94 as the main guy on the Bulls.

[SATAN]

Understandably too. Jordan did all the scoring in the playoffs lol

No he didn't.

[Hey Yo]

3ball isn't wrong about this one (for once). When you examine what Miller did, in the same years, to what Pippen did, especially in years like 1990, 1994, 1995, and 2000, it's evident who would be the better supporting player.

This doesn't mean that Miller was the better overall player, but it does make him a better fit as a #2 next to MJ, especially his ability to play off the ball and his immense clutch factor.

How many FGA per game do you think Reggie gets playing alongside MJ?

[HoopsNY]

Reggie cant run an offensive or play the defense like Pippen provided.

No chance he wins in 94 as the main guy on the Bulls.

Sorry, I meant that they beat the Knicks, not that they win the title. 1995 I think they win the title. 1994 they don't, but they do beat NY.

[HoopsNY]

How many FGA per game do you think Reggie gets playing alongside MJ?

About as many, if not slightly more than Pippen since MJ would have been the primary playmaker. They both averaged the same FGA in the playoffs between 1990-00.

[Reggie43]

The thing about Millers unselfishness is it has lost but has also won ballgames for them by playing the way they did. Travis best outclutching Jordan in 98 and hitting the gamewinner in a do or die game in 2000. Rik Smits going toe to toe with Ewing in 95 and even Mark Jackson being allowed to postup the majority of the shotclock and punishing defenders inside enroute to beating the Knicks in 98. The team was pretty good and I would rather see them play that way instead of somebody dominating the ball pretending to be a superstar just like your run of the mill shotjacker.

[Kblaze8855]

Still clinging to out of context quotes? Larry Brown has had something bad to say about everyone, would you believe evrything he says or only those to suit your agenda? Pretty sure he has a ton of quotes to contradict what he has previously said. Same with George Karl and especially Phil Jackson who probably was using his zen tactics just to get back at Miller for talking trash to his team.


When a teams coach tells me a guy isn’t a leader at all....and a fan 25 years later cites his leadership....it’s a justifiable mention. When another coach says to the public many times a guy can’t let role players decide games and he has to step up and go get the ball....and 20 years later I hear his unselfishness is what makes him this or that....it justifies a mention. You aren’t a 22 year old like some of these guys. You watched Mark Jackson shoot like 3 game winners and miss that one year when Bird was all over Reggie to stop being passive and go get the ball. Vs the Knicks. Two games in a row at least Mark Jackson is posting up at the foul line trying to win it with Reggie out of the picture. You remember Workman....you remember Best. Reggie would not do shit for 20 minutes all the time when he couldn’t get open and all his guards had to cover for him. We aren’t talking Kyrie here. We’re talking role players and non scorers dribbling out playoff games with a 25000 point 2 guard on the roster. Every coach from Brown to Isiah had to answer for it and that’s the source of Browns “He’s not what everybody think he is” quote on Reggie not being able to do things at will like other star guards. He meant it as a defense of him. Like “Stop expecting him to takeover....he’s not a scorer like that”.

Quarter century later Hes this epic scorer who always took over. You watched those games like I did. Reggie would vanish for whole halves. He went 20 minutes without a basket the game LJ had the 4 point play.

You run a play that works and springs him Reggie is as likely to make it as anyone ever. Need someone to go score on command?

The 6 highlights modern fans have paint a really inaccurate picture of what the Pacers were doing. Reggie would get roasted today for deference to role players in the clutch and even though we both know it’s true it’s totally in opposition to his reputation.

As I said....a lot of smoke and mirrors.

[Reggie43]

A few guys hype him up to death and he proceeds to get diminished /underrated by some. How would a fan react to that type of cycle?

He is at the level of Ray, Klay, Richmond and is certainly below Clyde and Pip but obviously above Hawkins, Kenny and Blaylock prime for prime regardless of how much you hate him although they are comparable in talent and skill, just not in effectiveness, leadership, mental toughness, clutchness and other intangibles that has an actual impact on winning games whether we like it or not.

[97 bulls]

This is incredible. Putting a lesser talented player, whose only strength was being a very good scorer, would be more successful than a player who's a good scorer, far better on defense, rebounds, and passing. Not to mention 6 titles, with records of 72, 69, and 67 wins. Dafuq????

[97 bulls]

When a teams coach tells me a guy isn’t a leader at all....and a fan 25 years later cites his leadership....it’s a justifiable mention. When another coach says to the public many times a guy can’t let role players decide games and he has to step up and go get the ball....and 20 years later I hear his unselfishness is what makes him this or that....it justifies a mention. You aren’t a 22 year old like some of these guys. You watched Mark Jackson shoot like 3 game winners and miss that one year when Bird was all over Reggie to stop being passive and go get the ball. Vs the Knicks. Two games in a row at least Mark Jackson is posting up at the foul line trying to win it with Reggie out of the picture. You remember Workman....you remember Best. Reggie would not do shit for 20 minutes all the time when he couldn’t get open and all his guards had to cover for him. We aren’t talking Kyrie here. We’re talking role players and non scorers dribbling out playoff games with a 25000 point 2 guard on the roster. Every coach from Brown to Isiah had to answer for it and that’s the source of Browns “He’s not what everybody think he is” quote on Reggie not being able to do things at will like other star guards. He meant it as a defense of him. Like “Stop expecting him to takeover....he’s not a scorer like that”.

Quarter century later Hes this epic scorer who always took over. You watched those games like I did. Reggie would vanish for whole halves. He went 20 minutes without a basket the game LJ had the 4 point play.

You run a play that works and springs him Reggie is as likely to make it as anyone ever. Need someone to go score on command?

The 6 highlights modern fans have paint a really inaccurate picture of what the Pacers were doing. Reggie would get roasted today for deference to role players in the clutch and even though we both know it’s true it’s totally in opposition to his reputation.

As I said....a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Wow. Mic drop

[Kblaze8855]

I didn’t pick Mookie and company over Reggie. The nba coaches did. What I felt was not a factor. And as I said Reggie didn’t win a playoff series at all till he was 28-29. I’ll buy Larry Birds contribution just bringing about victory. Reggie lost way way way too much to act like his style just makes teams victory prone. He was Reggie Miller long before his defensive minded ensemble casts were put under Larry Brown and started to win.

And of course...”win” isn’t really the word for it..... but the people many tiers down are obviously given a longer leash on what words like that mean.

[MadDog]

No he didn't.

You're right. Jordan didn't literally score all of their points. Wow good eye man!

[3ba11]

Wow. Mic drop


The stats tell the story and Miller's were far better, including far better stats the 6 times they played the same opponent in the playoffs.


Playoffs

Miller......... 19.5 PER... 5.0 BPM... 0.180 WS/48... 20.5 ppg on 60.1 TS
Pippen'...... 18.4 PER... 4.9 BPM... 0.140 WS/48... 17.5 ppg on 52.4 TS

[RogueBorg]

Can anyone refute anything 3ball is claiming here?

Is his argument wrong?

[Mr. Woke]

Miller is one of the most overrated players of all time (just like Stockton and Ewing).

He never made the All-NBA second or first team lol!

[3ba11]

Miller is one of the most overrated players of all time





Miller never had an all-star teammate but carried the Pacers to the ECF and Finals, while nearly beating MJ's Bulls.

Otoh, Pippen lost in the 2nd Round with a 3-peat system and had a .500 ballclub in 95' before MJ returned - so he destroyed a dynasty in less than 2 years, while Miller carried a franchise to numerous deep runs without ever having an all-star teammate!...

Btw, miller had better stats and drastically outplayed pippen 6 times against the same opponent in the playoffs.. So it's night and day... Miller is far superior






Miller never made the All-NBA second or first team lol!





And now we can look back in hindsight and see how dumb humans were back then that they UNDERRATED the guy playing at a higher level (miller), and OVERRATED the guy playing like the bum (pip) - the winning spotlight blinded people from seeing that pippen was a bum

[tpols]

And now we can look back in hindsight and see how dumb humans were

No not were..... ARE.

They still do it today and are doing it on a x100 level.

[3ba11]

No not were..... ARE.

They still do it today and are doing it on a x100 level.


facts

[HoopsNY]

Can anyone refute anything 3ball is claiming here?

Is his argument wrong?

He's not wrong (for once).

[Kblaze8855]

No not were..... ARE.

They still do it today and are doing it on a x100 level.


Id really love to watch the 90s Pacers with you. Those teams from when you were 7-8. Watch you realize how he wouldn’t even get touches for long stretches of big games. Get the ball like 3 times a whole 4th and pass it 2 of them as they score 78 points.

Biggest games of his life a total ghost. I wanna say he touched the ball 2 times in the last 5-6 minutes one game seven. Hell game 7 vs the bulls I distinctly remember him not touching it down the stretch at all other than being it up after a steal only to I think dump it in to Smits who you genuinely don’t realize was usually the first option when he and Reggie were both on the floor.

Watching you watch Reggies limited game cost the team when he couldn’t box out Pippen and gave up the rebound and midrange jumper late game 7….


You have such a casual fans view of what the game is sometimes. Watching the way you shit on stars who don’t impose their will you would be absolutely clowning Reggie much of the time. You would be exactly who Larry Brown was talking to when he said “He’s not what everybody thinks he is”. “Everybody” being fans who don’t understand his limited skill set not allowing him to score on command the way they think he can because of highlights.

He said it defending him. Like “Stop asking me why he didn’t score after the second quarter….he can’t just create shots like other stars”.

The bullshit that had sprung up about him would be so funny if it weren’t so annoying.

You guys flat out don’t know how he played. Reggie was watching Travis Best try to win playoff games and you honestly think he was some top flight scorer because of percentages which were the direct result of him having limited opportunities because of holes in his skill set…..

Just a weird situation.

[Reggie43]

Id really love to watch the 90s Pacers with you. Those teams from when you were 7-8. Watch you realize how he wouldn’t even get touches for long stretches of big games. Get the ball like 3 times a whole 4th and pass it 2 of them as they score 78 points.

Biggest games of his life a total ghost. I wanna say he touched the ball 2 times in the last 5-6 minutes one game seven. Hell game 7 vs the bulls I distinctly remember him not touching it down the stretch at all other than being it up after a steal only to I think dump it in to Smits who you genuinely don’t realize was usually the first option when he and Reggie were both on the floor.

Watching you watch Reggies limited game cost the team when he couldn’t box out Pippen and gave up the rebound and midrange jumper late game 7….


You have such a casual fans view of what the game is sometimes. Watching the way you shit on stars who don’t impose their will you would be absolutely clowning Reggie much of the time. You would be exactly who Larry Brown was talking to when he said “He’s not what everybody thinks he is”. “Everybody” being fans who don’t understand his limited skill set not allowing him to score on command the way they think he can because of highlights.

He said it defending him. Like “Stop asking me why he didn’t score after the second quarter….he can’t just create shots like other stars”.

The bullshit that had sprung up about him would be so funny if it weren’t so annoying.

You guys flat out don’t know how he played. Reggie was watching Travis Best try to win playoff games and you honestly think he was some top flight scorer because of percentages which were the direct result of him having limited opportunities because of holes in his skill set…..

Just a weird situation.

With all that being said are you trusting Pippen as a scorer for the big game?

[Kblaze8855]

Trust as in what? Expect 25-30 points?

No. That isn’t what he’s there for. It’s like asking if I’d trust Magic or Bill Russell(or Kidd or any number of others) to score a lot in a random game. Could they? Sure. Would I go in looking for it? Nah. Not what they are there for. The 12-20 they give me is gravy.

Reggie was a scorer who made 6 shots in the last 4 second halves combined(6 shots in 8 quarters) of a series I’ve legit heard people who didn’t even watch it say he took Jordan to 7 games in. That game winner in game 6 was pure Reggie. Do absolutely nothing….make a big shot to make people forget it was only his second shot of the game. Team essentially plays even with the dynasty Bulls while he no shows…he makes one shot….history remembers it and not the guys keeping them in the game while he was a ghost.

He may be the out of context goat.

[Reggie43]

Miller in his prime up to age 30 basically averaged 25ppg on 48%fg 43%3pts in the playoffs.

Thats basically 2points less than what Curry averages for his playoff career at the same age but on significantly lower percentages (45%fg 40%3pt) but it would be blaspheme for some to compare the two scoring wise.

Its easy to make a player look bad if you nitpick certain games/series especially if he was past his prime or injured or you have no idea how the Pacers play.

[Reggie43]

Trust as in what? Expect 25-30 points?

No. That isn’t what he’s there for. It’s like asking if I’d trust Magic or Bill Russell(or Kidd or any number of others) to score a lot in a random game. Could they? Sure. Would I go in looking for it? Nah. Not what they are there for. The 12-20 they give me is gravy.

Reggie was a scorer who made 6 shots in the last 4 second halves combined(6 shots in 8 quarters) of a series I’ve legit heard people who didn’t even watch it say he took Jordan to 7 games in. That game winner in game 6 was pure Reggie. Do absolutely nothing….make a big shot to make people forget it was only his second shot of the game. Team essentially plays even with the dynasty Bulls while he no shows…he makes one shot….history remembers it and not the guys keeping them in the game while he was a ghost.

He may be the out of context goat.

Yeah but the thread is about scoring so I dont see how those apply. We know how bad the op is but he is kinda right if you base them only on scoring in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie going ghost isn’t a cherry pick. He’d barely touch the ball for extended stretches of games all the time. Reggie having 22 with 18 in the first half and get questions about why he didn’t score late wasn’t surprising at all. You watched it happen just like I did. “Why wasn’t Reggie involved?” was among the most common questions of the 90s.

Talking about Reggies pre 30s playoff averages. He didn’t win a playoff series till he was about to be 29. You’re talking about 2-3 playoff sweeps and the loss where Bird broke his face and came back in.

He wasn’t doing much to talk about. He may have won 2 playoff games from 87 to 94. Great players historically get clowned for such things.

Is it usually stupid?

Sure.

But it happens.

[Kblaze8855]

Yeah but the thread is about scoring so I dont see how those apply. We know how bad the op is but he is kinda right if you base them only on scoring in the playoffs.

And if I base it only on assists John Stockton is better than a lot of people he isnt. The only people who limit the scope of performance are those who have good reason to. Once you get into “Yea but I’m not talking about the total game” it’s obvious why.

[3ba11]

And if I base it only on assists John Stockton is better than a lot of people he isnt. The only people who limit the scope of performance are those who have good reason to. Once you get into “Yea but I’m not talking about the total game” it’s obvious why.


2nd options have to score, otherwise they're failing their role as 2nd options - aka spotty scorers that play defense are defensive role players

So Pippen was a defensive role player when he averaged 15.7 on 40% in 2 Finals and 19 on 42% for his Finals career, or when he averages 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, or when he averaged below 16 on 43% in nearly half of his playoff series, or when he had the worst playoff BPM and WS/48 that any winning sidekick ever had in 93' (and nearly the worst TS).

Ultimately, no amount of defense or 5 APG can make up for 17 on 41% for an entire three-peat.. guys like AD or PG13 would get destroyed for those stats regardless of how good their defense was.

Ultimately, Reggie Miller didn't need all-star teammates to make the Finals and part of the reason he needed so little help was because he had a great spacing effect like Curry (but on a lesser scale because of lesser 3-point volume and the format wasn't geared towards a 3-point game back then).

But imagine if Miller had Klay as a teammate - that's like having 2 Reggie Millers and the Pacers were already in the Finals with just 1.. Or imagine if Miller had MJ as a teammate - they would win the 95' title because Reggie averaged 26 on 52% against Orlando, while Pippen caused the Bulls to lose with 19 on 40%.. And they would win in 1990 because Miller averaged 21 on 57% against the Bad Boys, while Pippen caused the Bulls to lose with 16 on 42%.

[Axe]

Id really love to watch the 90s Pacers with you. Those teams from when you were 7-8. Watch you realize how he wouldn’t even get touches for long stretches of big games. Get the ball like 3 times a whole 4th and pass it 2 of them as they score 78 points.

Biggest games of his life a total ghost. I wanna say he touched the ball 2 times in the last 5-6 minutes one game seven. Hell game 7 vs the bulls I distinctly remember him not touching it down the stretch at all other than being it up after a steal only to I think dump it in to Smits who you genuinely don’t realize was usually the first option when he and Reggie were both on the floor.

Watching you watch Reggies limited game cost the team when he couldn’t box out Pippen and gave up the rebound and midrange jumper late game 7….


You have such a casual fans view of what the game is sometimes. Watching the way you shit on stars who don’t impose their will you would be absolutely clowning Reggie much of the time. You would be exactly who Larry Brown was talking to when he said “He’s not what everybody thinks he is”. “Everybody” being fans who don’t understand his limited skill set not allowing him to score on command the way they think he can because of highlights.

He said it defending him. Like “Stop asking me why he didn’t score after the second quarter….he can’t just create shots like other stars”.

The bullshit that had sprung up about him would be so funny if it weren’t so annoying.

You guys flat out don’t know how he played. Reggie was watching Travis Best try to win playoff games and you honestly think he was some top flight scorer because of percentages which were the direct result of him having limited opportunities because of holes in his skill set…..

Just a weird situation.
Some epic slay on thurston rt :applause:

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs



Playoff Stats

Miller......... 19.5 PER... 5.0 BPM... 0.180 WS/48... 20.5 ppg on 60.1 TS
Pippen'...... 18.4 PER... 4.9 BPM... 0.140 WS/48... 17.5 ppg on 52.4 TS


Stats against the same Playoff Opponents

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



Miller nearly beat MJ with no all-stars in 98' and made the Finals with no all-stars in 00', while Pippen lost in the 2nd Round in 94' and destroyed the Bulls' dynasty by 95', while also losing 4 years with MJ.

The Bulls would've beaten the 95' Magic with Miller's 26 on 53% rather than Pippen's 19 on 40%... Ditto the 1990 ECF, where Pippen averaged 16 on 42% against the Bad Boys compared to Miller's 21 on 57%

[3ba11]

Here's why they didn't put Pippen on Miller:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8CiC1TxjOY&t=04m03s


Pippen can't risk the blow-by and backs off - a completely overrated defender and player

[Reggie43]

Here's why they didn't put Pippen on Miller:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8CiC1TxjOY&t=04m03s


Pippen can't risk the blow-by and backs off - a completely overrated defender and player

First answer is that Miller was too fast and quick for Pippen off the ball. Its normal for teams to let point guards defend Miller as they could evade the endless maze of screens better and they had the stamina to chase a player who was perpetually in motion off the ball the whole game.

Next answer is that Pippen was one of the best help defenders of all time and that attribute would be wasted if he is forced to focus on one player only, who most of the time is way out in the perimeter spacing the floor or moving off the ball. The Bulls team defense would suffer heavily.

[3ba11]

Reggie Miller and Pippen faced the same opponent in the playoffs 6 times....



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage





A prominent news outlet recently said that Pippen "nearly won the title in 94' without MJ"

Aside from the fact that Pippen choke-fouled Hubert Davis (here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif)), how was Pippen going to get past Indiana when he gets drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller every single time?

Btw, the numbers show that MJ would've had far more help with Miller in place of Pippen.. MJ could've used Miller's 21 on great efficiency, spacing and clutch in the 90' ECF... Or Miller's 26 on 53% against the 95' Magic would've easily won MJ the East and the title