Joker is trash defensively

[Bronbron23]

He dosn't deserve to be in the same breath as past great bigs that impacted the other half of the game.

[Mask the Embiid]

Thats why he will never...ever....be in the same class as Embiid.....EVER


You cant suck at half of the game(defense is literally half of the game of basketball) and be the best....that's not how this works.....that's not how anything works

[Bronbron23]

Thats why he will never...ever....be better than Embiid.....EVER


You cant suck at half of the game(defense is literally half of the game of basketball) and be the best....that's not how this works.....that's not how anything works yeah i agree in theory. Embiid only problem is he can't stay healthy. He misses a shit ton of time. If i had to chose between the 2 I'm taking joker for that reason. He's not quite as good but at least i know he'll be available

[Mask the Embiid]

yeah i agree in theory. Embiid only problem is he can't stay healthy. He misses a shit ton of time. If i had to chose between the 2 I'm taking joker for that reason. He's not quite as good but at least i know he'll be available

he'll be available to lose...and he's available to eat cheeseburgers....that's all he's "available" to do


Portland in 6.....Sixers in 4

Embiid is the #peoplesmvp

[Bronbron23]

he'll be available to lose...and to eat hamburgers....that's all he will be available for


Portland in 6.....Sixers in 4

Lol fair enough

[fsvr54]

Locked up Harrel's bitch ass last year.

[light]

He dosn't deserve to be in the same breath as past great bigs that impacted the other half of the game.

He's actually not that bad defensively.

[Bronbron23]

Locked up Harrel's bitch ass last year.

Harrell averages 10 points a game in the post season for his career and he scored 12 a game that series. Wtf are you talking about?

[fourkicks44]

I thought there were a heap of advanced stats that showed Jokic was one of the best defenders in the league.

Can someone help out and post it? I think it came up during the Gobert vs Embiid era of threads.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I thought there were a heap of advanced stats that showed Jokic was one of the best defenders in the league.

Can someone help out and post it? I think it came up during the Gobert vs Embiid era of threads.

Yep his DRPM and DBPM are on the plus side. One bad game doesnt make him a bad defender.

[fourkicks44]

Yep his DRPM and DBPM are on the plus side. One bad game doesnt make him a bad defender.

I agree to some degree, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

No he is not a 'bad' defender and can definitely hold his own in the post or against most bigs or players close to his size. He is at least a big body, that despite not being a great rim protector, can be a presence as required.

The advance stats tho paint a picture that is completely overblown too. Mask brings up an important point, one that I have been arguing for along time but seems to get ignored over and over again by Jokic apologists.

I don't want to bring up old arguments that have been done to death but can not even compare Embiid's defence to Joker's, despite what the advanced stats say.

Ultimately he is not a bad defender but not great either.

[tontoz]

Joker isn't a trash defender. Probably closer to average.

However I haven't forgotten when the sixers played GS and embiid stayed way back on pick and rolls giving Curry open 3s all night.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I agree to some degree, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

No he is not a 'bad' defender and can definitely hold his own in the post or against most bigs or players close to his size. He is at least a big body, that despite not being a great rim protector, can be a presence as required.

The advance stats tho paint a picture that is completely overblown too. Mask brings up an important point, one that I have been arguing for along time but seems to get ignored over and over again by Jokic apologists.

I don't want to bring up old arguments that have been done to death but can not even compare Embiid's defence to Joker's, despite what the advanced stats say.

Ultimately he is not a bad defender but not great either.

All of that's fair. Keep in mind Joker also played 20 more games, which swings the pendulum a bit.

If Embiid were healthy the split differential would favor him.

Advanced stats are def noisy though, especially on the defensive side. RPM is a good 'thumb stat' for impact but it'll never capture a players total defensive contribution. RAPM does a better job at that because its non-boxscore, although people who watch games know what's up.

[Bronbron23]

Yep his DRPM and DBPM are on the plus side. One bad game doesnt make him a bad defender.

Can't always go by those stats. Plenty of trash defenders have had good advanced stats. According to dbpm john Stockton is a better defender than bron. Joker is clearly a bad defender. He constantly gets abused at multiple positions. He's to small to gaurd legit bigs and he to slow to gaurd alot of fowards.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

He's trash defensively, just a rich man's vlade divac pretty much. Sure Jokic could score a lot better then Divac but Divac actually played defense and that's extremely valuable for a center.

The real star was Jamal Murray who is like if Curry and Irving molded into 1 guy.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Can't always go by those stats. Plenty of trash defenders have had good advanced stats. According to dbpm john Stockton is a better defender than bron. Joker is clearly a bad defender. He constantly gets abused at multiple positions. He's to small to gaurd legit bigs and he to slow to gaurd alot of fowards.

DBPM is based on blocks and steals, so I agree. But DRPM isolates impact and has far more nuance.

He isn't on Embiid's level, but Joker is still a plus defender. I wouldn't call him trash or bad.

[tontoz]

Denver was 14th in defensive efficiency on the season. Jokic played big minutes every game. Let's not pretend like Denver has a lot of strong defenders to make up for a center who is trash defensively.

[ShawkFactory]

He's trash defensively, just a rich man's vlade divac pretty much. Sure Jokic could score a lot better then Divac but Divac actually played defense and that's extremely valuable for a center.

The real star was Jamal Murray who is like if Curry and Irving molded into 1 guy.

How is he a rich mans vlade divac when you go on to say that they’re nothing alike?

[tontoz]

He's trash defensively, just a rich man's vlade divac pretty much. Sure Jokic could score a lot better then Divac but Divac actually played defense and that's extremely valuable for a center.

The real star was Jamal Murray who is like if Curry and Irving molded into 1 guy.

:facepalm

So how did they win 18 games after he went out, including two playoff games? They were also missing Barton for most of those games.

[RRR3]

Can't always go by those stats. Plenty of trash defenders have had good advanced stats. According to dbpm john Stockton is a better defender than bron. Joker is clearly a bad defender. He constantly gets abused at multiple positions. He's to small to gaurd legit bigs and he to slow to gaurd alot of fowards.
Who the **** is he too small to guard? He’s 6’11 barefoot and probably is close to 300 pounds.

[dankok8]

Can't always go by those stats. Plenty of trash defenders have had good advanced stats. According to dbpm john Stockton is a better defender than bron. Joker is clearly a bad defender. He constantly gets abused at multiple positions. He's to small to gaurd legit bigs and he to slow to gaurd alot of fowards.

How is Jokic small to guard bigs? He's a legit 7 footer. His only problem is staying with guards on the perimeter but which big in the league can stay with someone like Lillard except maybe AD and Giannis? Jokic is pretty much average or even slightly above average defensively.

[RRR3]

How is Jokic small to guard bigs? He's a legit 7 footer. His only problem is staying with guards on the perimeter but which big in the league can stay with someone like Lillard except maybe AD and Giannis? Jokic is pretty much average or even slightly above average defensively.
Bam. LeBron if he counts as a big (same size as Bam tbh)

[NugzFan]

Thats why he will never...ever....be in the same class as Embiid.....EVER


You cant suck at half of the game(defense is literally half of the game of basketball) and be the best....that's not how this works.....that's not how anything works


He’s already in the same class as embiid

One might even say he’s the most valuable player

[NugzFan]

He's trash defensively, just a rich man's vlade divac pretty much. Sure Jokic could score a lot better then Divac but Divac actually played defense and that's extremely valuable for a center.

The real star was Jamal Murray who is like if Curry and Irving molded into 1 guy.


:lol

[plowking]

Do people just always make this assumption about all Euro players.

He is a good defender. A plus on that side of the ball. He does a great job stopping entries into the paint. Also he is extremely nimble for a guy his size. He isn't going to lockdown anyone on the perimeter, but he always hustles and contests.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Do people just always make this assumption about all Euro players.

He is a good defender. A plus on that side of the ball. He does a great job stopping entries into the paint. Also he is extremely nimble for a guy his size. He isn't going to lockdown anyone on the perimeter, but he always hustles and contests.

He ain't a good defender :roll:

Have you seen him play? His own coach pulls him to the bench for defensive possessions.

And it ain't a Euro bias. Nurkic is a good defender. Jokic is not.

[tpols]

You're not going to find many centers who can average 31/11 on 128 ORTG. That's better than Shaq offense.

He's also a good defender. +1.98 DRPM. That's better than Giannis.

Youre just a racist.

[Kblaze8855]

He's also a good defender. +1.98 DRPM. That's better than Giannis.

That feels like the kinda thing people post when even they know it doesn’t mean anything. Plenty of good defenders don’t show it in stats like that. Jokic smokes Anthony Davis in drpm. One might assume his injuries this year are why but Anthony Davis last year was like 150 spots behind Jokic in drpm. Hell Duncan Robinson was 140 spots ahead of Davis. AD was behind Melo. Duncan Robinson was ahead of Bam.

It like all defensive stats can’t account for any number of factors. Especially teammates performance and coaching.

Whatever Jokic is on D it isn’t shown in his drpm.

[miggyme1]

He doesnt have to be. This isnt the 90s where 70 percent of teams had a dominant center....remember dikembe was a “defensive center” but he even averaged 15-20 points a game a few seasons. Most of these centers now are lob guys...i can name maybe 3 centers that can post jokic up and make him look VERY bad defensively. He will be fine

[tpols]

That feels like the kinda thing people post when even they know it doesn’t mean anything. Plenty of good defenders don’t show it in stats like that. Jokic smokes Anthony Davis in drpm. One might assume his injuries this year are why but Anthony Davis last year was like 150 spots behind Jokic in drpm. Hell Duncan Robinson was 140 spots ahead of Davis. AD was behind Melo. Duncan Robinson was ahead of Bam.

It like all defensive stats can’t account for any number of factors. Especially teammates performance and coaching.

Whatever Jokic is on D it isn’t shown in his drpm.

It doesn't mean he's a better defender but it gives a rough estimate of his defensive impact. Which is positive. People rail on Currys defense and he posted a 0. But has the highest offensive impact in the league.

Rudy Gobert leads the league in DRPM with a ridiculous +8. Which is like double the next best defender in Clint Capela. If you sort it you'll see all the best defenders in the league are at the top of the list and in the positive. You'll always be able to point out outliers. They exist for everything.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s not an outlier with dozens(hundreds really) of inaccurate rankings. It’s just a shit list. Conley isn’t the best defensive guard....he plays all his minutes with Gobert. The Knicks don’t have 3 elite defenders with Randle a top 3 defender in the world. They all play for Thibs. Capela isn’t the second best defender. He plays on a (often) shit defensive team personnel wise so being a good interior defender makes a greater difference. Lebron wasn’t the best defender in the nba other than Gobert last year. Joe Harris isn’t top 4 now either. We all saw the laker bigs damn near win a title with their interior domination yet both AD and Dwight were outside the top 130.

These are not outliers. Outliers are rare. The rankings in those numbers being vastly different from reality isn’t an outlier. The few people properly ranked are outliers.

[tpols]

Yes the players that play on the best defensive teams and play good defense themselves will have highly ranked DRPM. I haven't watched him much but people are calling Capela a DPOY in the current game thread. Mike Conley absolutely is one of the best defensive guards in the league, and AD / Dwight basically load manage all year in the regular season and then turn on the jets in the playoffs. There's reasons for everything.

All of the guys people think are good defenders have good scores and bad defenders have negative ones. It gives a rough estimate of defensive ability better than any other metric out there. Nobody is sitting here watching every player in the NBA play defense every night so its all we have.

[Kblaze8855]

There are reasons for everything. Those reasons just aren’t easily accounted for which is the whole point. You don’t need to manufacture shit to make up for it. Anthony Davis played great D last season regular season and playoffs. He was all D first team and generally earned it. His drpm being worse than Melo doesn’t mean he was chilling. It means the number does not count his actual defense. No number ever has or will. There are simply too many factors to account for.

Duncan Robinson was targeted on defense regularly yet comes out ahead of a couple hundred better defenders because his individual defense is hard to separate from the Heats. That’s how it often works.

These numbers just can’t measure some things.