Was Hakeem a better player than Jordan?!

[aceman]

Much more efficient & reliable scorer. On defense had greater influence on games as anchor rather than being a perimeter man to man defender.
Mj had poor shooting % for all of the final 3 peat which is a fact that gets overlooked & really could been seen as a detriment to the team. Hakeem as first option was simply a strength the rockets built around. Bulls needed all elite defense to make team work around lead midrange shooter

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No but he was better than Bran

Hakeem as a sophomore eliminated Showtime Lakers in 5 games and 2 took games from GOAT level 86 Celtics with Ralph Sampson as his star option

then Ralph broke down and he didn't get a star in his prime until washed up Drexler who they got for Otis Thorpe

And Hakeem won b2b rings in arguably the most impressive championship runs ever ITO level of competition faced and not having HCA and being dogs every round in 95 while going up against multiple HOF players and bigs every round

Imagine if Hakeem played in the worst conference ever and had..

Ben Wallace
Ray Allen
Shaq
Kyrie
Ray
Danny Green
AD
Rondo
Wade
Kyrie
Love
Bosh
Battier
Boozer
Big Z
Rose
Ingram
Hughes
Jamison
Crowder
Kuzma
Lonzo
Drummond
Trez
Schroder
JR Smith
Markieff
Mo
Clarkson
Korver
IT
Wally

:oldlol:

[LAL]

This looks painful lol

[BigShotBob]

No but he was better than Bran

Hakeem as a sophomore eliminated Showtime Lakers in 5 games and 2 took games from GOAT level 86 Celtics with Ralph Sampson as his star option

then Ralph broke down and he didn't get a star in his prime until washed up Drexler who they got for Otis Thorpe

And Hakeem won b2b rings in arguably the most impressive championship runs ever ITO level of competition faced and not having HCA and being dogs every round in 95 while going up against multiple HOF players and bigs every round

Imagine if Hakeem played in the worst conference ever and had..

Ben Wallace
Ray Allen
Shaq
Kyrie
Ray
Danny Green
AD
Rondo
Wade
Kyrie
Love
Bosh
Battier
Boozer
Big Z
Rose
Ingram
Hughes
Jamison
Crowder
Kuzma
Lonzo
Drummond
Trez
Schroder
JR Smith
Markieff
Mo
Clarkson
Korver
IT
Wally

:oldlol:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/1a6b48687a22ef14f40e7ab012e5a224/tenor.gif?itemid=13739141

[nayte]

Wtf did I just read

[999Guy]

Yeah, why not?

[3ball]

.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif


Hakeem is inferior because he only had the confidence to step up his usage and dominate when the lion king wasn't around - otherwise, he cowered away and no one knew or cared that he was #2

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

No because he only had the confidence to step up his usage and dominate when the lion king wasn't around - otherwise, he cowered away and no one knew or cared that he was #2

MJ was in the 95 playoffs when Hakeem won it all babyboi. In fact Hakeem swept the team MJ lost to.

Hakeem also has a winning record against MJ for their career and remember what MJ said about Hakeem "I don't want to see that big African". There's a reason MJ always puts Hakeem in his all-time lineup

[3ball]

MJ was in the 95 playoffs when Hakeem won it all babyboi. In fact Hakeem swept the team MJ lost to.

Hakeem also has a winning record against MJ for their career and remember what MJ said about Hakeem "I don't want to see that big African". There's a reason MJ always puts Hakeem in his all-time lineup


Everyone knows that Jordan untrained his body from playing basketball for 2 years and needed more than a couple weeks to get it back

Ultimately, the 95' Bulls were a .500 ballclub that Jordan carried to another 3-peat in his first full seasons back - prime Jordan was the goat floor-raiser

[Spurs m8]

Everyone knows that Jordan untrained his body from playing basketball for 2 years and needed more than a couple weeks to get it back

Ultimately, the 95' Bulls were a .500 ballclub that Jordan carried to another 3-peat in his first full seasons back - prime Jordan was the goat floor-raiser

Exactly

Cp3dkg knows this too...hes just playing the LeStan card and leaving out context

[ImKobe]

Ok, so why does Hakeem average 25.9 ppg on 56.9%TS to MJ's 33.7 ppg on 56.8%TS in the Playoffs? Why did Hakeem never win a scoring title, nor average 28+ ppg in the RS?

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem is my favorite player, but he wasn't as good as MJ. He's damn close though. If his dynasty to be hadn't fallen apart, Hakeem would be looking at a possible 4-5 NBA titles. Not to mention, the 1995 team was perfectly capable of beating the 1995 Bulls team with Jordan on it.

If Hakeem's cast remained in tact, the debate would be between MJ and Hakeem for the greatest of all time, and many would side with Hakeem due to his impact defensively. This doesn't take away from Jordan as a defensive player, but due to the fact that Hakeem would and could deal with so many great bigs just puts him at a significantly higher tier defensively.

Hakeem was an outstanding playoff performer, arguably the greatest defensive player ever, and had some of the best footwork and post moves you will ever see. He was a legit scorer who could get it done. His first round exits are overrated because most of them come after his cast gets suspended or banned due to cocaine addiction or the demise of Ralph Sampson.

[Bronbron23]

Much more efficient & reliable scorer. On defense had greater influence on games as anchor rather than being a perimeter man to man defender.
Mj had poor shooting % for all of the final 3 peat which is a fact that gets overlooked & really could been seen as a detriment to the team. Hakeem as first option was simply a strength the rockets built around. Bulls needed all elite defense to make team work around lead midrange shooter

Bruh what kind of nonsense is this. Those same years kareem averaged about 22 pts a game on 51%. Mj was about 30 pts a game on 48%. 48% for a shooting gaurd in one of the toughest scoring era's ever is actually not bad.

[TheCorporation]

LBJ
Russell
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Hakeem
Bird
Jordan

Yep

[Gohan]

LBJ
Russell
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Hakeem
Bird
Jordan

Yep

You forgot iverson

[HoopsNY]

LBJ
Russell
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Hakeem
Bird
Jordan

Yep

Don't forget Rick Brunson.

[FKAri]

What? No.

[aceman]

Bruh what kind of nonsense is this. Those same years kareem averaged about 22 pts a game on 51%. Mj was about 30 pts a game on 48%. 48% for a shooting gaurd in one of the toughest scoring era's ever is actually not bad.

Great, in playoffs from 1996 to 98 Jordan shoot 45% from field. Hakeem was doing 52% scoring over 30 for both his rings. Somebody mentioned ts% but ultimately one first option is getting same number of points far more efficiently. In my mind that would make them a more valuable player.

[aceman]

Ok, so why does Hakeem average 25.9 ppg on 56.9%TS to MJ's 33.7 ppg on 56.8%TS in the Playoffs? Why did Hakeem never win a scoring title, nor average 28+ ppg in the RS?

Scoring titles don't mean anything - only rings count. Jacking shots on poor efficiency can get you numbers. Fact bulls won with such a poor shooting first option shows you how good the defense was.

[TheMan]

8.LBJ
7.Russell
6.Kareem
5.Duncan
4.Magic
3.Hakeem
2.Bird
1.Jordan

Yep
I agree for the most part, Larry a bit too high, Hakeem #9 and LBJ #10 on my list...

[Vino24]

MJ feared the big Nigerian. He also ducked Duncan

[RogueBorg]

Scoring titles don't mean anything - only rings count. Jacking shots on poor efficiency can get you numbers. Fact bulls won with such a poor shooting first option shows you how good the defense was.

Where was Hakeem in '91, '92, '93, '96, '97, and '98?

Everyone talks about how weak MJ's Bulls competition was in the Finals then where was Hakeem?

[theman93]

.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif


Hakeem is inferior because he only had the confidence to step up his usage and dominate when the lion king wasn't around - otherwise, he cowered away and no one knew or cared that he was #2

/thread

[Phoenix]

.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-24-2020/TZ-v5K.gif


Hakeem is inferior because he only had the confidence to step up his usage and dominate when the lion king wasn't around - otherwise, he cowered away and no one knew or cared that he was #2

So what you're saying is.....Hakeem deliberately lost to avoid the finals while having advance knowledge that MJ was going to be out of the league in 94?

[Manny98]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxNu30I7zuE

[dreamwarrior]

Hakeem was overrated. Playing 3ft from the basket, you have no business shooting in the low .500's. I know guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, and Ewing were out on the post a lot but so was Kareem who shot .559.

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem was overrated. Playing 3ft from the basket, you have no business shooting in the low .500's. I know guys like Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, and Ewing were out on the post a lot but so was Kareem who shot .559.

You clearly didn't watch Hakeem play if you think he sat 3 feet away from the basket all the time. He had the best mid-range game of any center of his time.

In 1997, he took 40% of his FGA between 10-29 feet.

In 1998, he took 45% of his FGA from 10-29 feet.

In 1999, he took 42% of his FGA from 10-29 feet.

Those were the last years of his prime and he was injured in 1998 anyway. So I'm not sure where the idea comes from that he "played 3 feet from the basket."

[Axe]

What? No.
Why not? ;)

[Bronbron23]

Great, in playoffs from 1996 to 98 Jordan shoot 45% from field. Hakeem was doing 52% scoring over 30 for both his rings. Somebody mentioned ts% but ultimately one first option is getting same number of points far more efficiently. In my mind that would make them a more valuable player.

Mj shot 46% actually but that's neither here or there. If you wanna argue hakeems peek championship years was as good as mj than that's fine. I disagree but it's close enough to where the statement isn't crazy. As far as careers go it's not close.

[ClipperRevival]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/1a6b48687a22ef14f40e7ab012e5a224/tenor.gif?itemid=13739141

This gif.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[TheCorporation]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxNu30I7zuE

Kenny Smith "MJ is better than Hakeem because he went to more Finals"

Damn...Kenny laid the groundwork for LeBron being better than MJ.

[ImKobe]

Scoring titles don't mean anything - only rings count. Jacking shots on poor efficiency can get you numbers. Fact bulls won with such a poor shooting first option shows you how good the defense was.

I gave you the efficiency numbers. Jordan scored at a higher volume while matching Hakeem's overall scoring efficiency. 7.8 more points on same scoring efficiency as Hakeem for his Playoffs career. Hakeem had the higher FG% due to not shooting any 3s and by mostly scoring inside the paint or within 10 ft, but he was also a much worse FT shooter at just 71% for his career. Jordan was a better scorer in transition and from mid-range and could also run the offense from the perimeter.

I wish we had the shooting data for their whole careers, but look at the '97 season for MJ, dominated purely on jump shots alone as a 50% mid-range shooter, and he was taking them at an insane volume.

[aceman]

I gave you the efficiency numbers. Jordan scored at a higher volume while matching Hakeem's overall scoring efficiency. 7.8 more points on same scoring efficiency as Hakeem for his Playoffs career. Hakeem had the higher FG% due to not shooting any 3s and by mostly scoring inside the paint or within 10 ft, but he was also a much worse FT shooter at just 71% for his career. Jordan was a better scorer in transition and from mid-range and could also run the offense from the perimeter.

I wish we had the shooting data for their whole careers, but look at the '97 season for MJ, dominated purely on jump shots alone as a 50% mid-range shooter, and he was taking them at an insane volume.

I don't care about true shooting nor should anybody. From basic standpoint of putting up points Hakeem matched Jordan in 94 & 95 but did so with less fga's. If your first option is putting up less shots for same points that is an advantage. You could make same argument for Kareem & Shaq with their effectiveness which is related to playing close to the basket but doesn't take away advantage over midrange shooters.
More shots you take the more rebounds you need & the better defense you have to have. Jordan had best defender & reboinber next him (he wasn't a bad defender himself).
All things equal you'd build a team around Hakeem

[Charlie Sheen]

So what you're saying is.....Hakeem deliberately lost to avoid the finals while having advance knowledge that MJ was going to be out of the league in 94?

:lol

I didnt notice his blurb of 3ball text until your reply. It's a cool quote nonetheless

[Gohan]

Kenny Smith "MJ is better than Hakeem because he went to more Finals"

Damn...Kenny laid the groundwork for LeBron being better than MJ.


Iverson is better than lebron because he stepped over his old coach

[TheMan]

Kenny Smith "MJ is better than Hakeem because he went to more Finals"

Damn...Kenny laid the groundwork for LeBron being better than MJ.

'Cept MJ always won them, not less than half of them :confusedshrug:

[Gohan]

'Cept MJ always won them, not less than half of them :confusedshrug:

mj won more with less chances, im sure jordan could of won some of those finals that lebron won with that many chances. he for sure wins in 2011

[HoopsNY]

I don't care about true shooting nor should anybody. From basic standpoint of putting up points Hakeem matched Jordan in 94 & 95 but did so with less fga's. If your first option is putting up less shots for same points that is an advantage. You could make same argument for Kareem & Shaq with their effectiveness which is related to playing close to the basket but doesn't take away advantage over midrange shooters.
More shots you take the more rebounds you need & the better defense you have to have. Jordan had best defender & reboinber next him (he wasn't a bad defender himself).
All things equal you'd build a team around Hakeem

Hakeem in '94-'95 put up 29/10/4/2/3 on 49%. He attempted 24 FGA, but he was also a center. Perimeter players will shoot more and the comparison you're giving isn't really apples to apples.

You're using Hakeem's two best finals appearances. He went to 3 finals in total. So if you're going to look at Hakeem's best two years, you also have to look at MJ's (1991 and 1992).

Hakeem '94-'95 Finals: 29/10/4/2/3 on 49% (24 FGA)
Jordan '91-'92 Finals: 34/6/9/2/1 on 54% (24 FGA)

And notice their volume is equal, yet MJ has a significantly higher FG% despite taking more long range shots.

[FKAri]

Why not? ;)

I mean...What? YES! ;)

[Carbine]

I don't care about true shooting nor should anybody. From basic standpoint of putting up points Hakeem matched Jordan in 94 & 95 but did so with less fga's. If your first option is putting up less shots for same points that is an advantage. You could make same argument for Kareem & Shaq with their effectiveness which is related to playing close to the basket but doesn't take away advantage over midrange shooters.
More shots you take the more rebounds you need & the better defense you have to have. Jordan had best defender & reboinber next him (he wasn't a bad defender himself).
All things equal you'd build a team around Hakeem

All things being equal you take Hakeem? That's basically saying he's the better player and overall package for their entire careers.

Hakeem got knocked out of the first round what, 8 times? He wasn't 94 and 95 Hakeem all the way through his career. He had to grow up and mature as a person and player. So did Jordan, but he got their quicker and stayed at the level.longer than Hakeem did.

[And1AllDay]

'Cept MJ always won them, not less than half of them :confusedshrug:

russell has 11 chips

mike has 6 but mike always won ? :oldlol: stick to community jc college math 101

[Gohan]

russell has 11 chips

mike has 6 but mike always won ? :oldlol: stick to community jc college math 101

Did Russell win all of them? Is he 100%

[aceman]

All things being equal you take Hakeem? That's basically saying he's the better player and overall package for their entire careers.

Hakeem got knocked out of the first round what, 8 times? He wasn't 94 and 95 Hakeem all the way through his career. He had to grow up and mature as a person and player. So did Jordan, but he got their quicker and stayed at the level.longer than Hakeem did.

It's basketball not the French open. Players have teams around them. Comparing results is pointless because there are other factors than just one player

[Carbine]

It's basketball not the French open. Players have teams around them. Comparing results is pointless because there are other factors than just one player

I agree but this is the GOAT standard. If you're THAT guy, you don't get bounced by Mark Aqguire in the first round, Dale Ellis the next year in the first round and then another two first round exits by Magic (no shame there) and then miss the playoffs completely the next year. That's five years. During his prime ages.

Could you imagine LeBron having that kind of success no matter who was around him for five straight years of his middle to late 20s?

Or Jordan in that age time frame?

Hakeem being the one to build around doesn't make much sense here.

[aceman]

Hakeem in '94-'95 put up 29/10/4/2/3 on 49%. He attempted 24 FGA, but he was also a center. Perimeter players will shoot more and the comparison you're giving isn't really apples to apples.

You're using Hakeem's two best finals appearances. He went to 3 finals in total. So if you're going to look at Hakeem's best two years, you also have to look at MJ's (1991 and 1992).

Hakeem '94-'95 Finals: 29/10/4/2/3 on 49% (24 FGA)
Jordan '91-'92 Finals: 34/6/9/2/1 on 54% (24 FGA)

And notice their volume is equal, yet MJ has a significantly higher FG% despite taking more long range shots.

You're cherry picking individual series. Looking at the whole Hakeem never shot under 500 during playoff campaigns of 10 or more matches. From 1992 Jordan was on the other side of that figure.

[aceman]

I agree but this is the GOAT standard. If you're THAT guy, you don't get bounced by Mark Aqguire in the first round, Dale Ellis the next year in the first round and then another two first round exits by Magic (no shame there) and then miss the playoffs completely the next year. That's five years. During his prime ages.

Could you imagine LeBron having that kind of success no matter who was around him for five straight years of his middle to late 20s?

Or Jordan in that age time frame?

Hakeem being the one to build around doesn't make much sense here.

When we compare Nadal & Federer we can talk about first round losses. You're really comparing Bulls & Rockets and Bulls were overall much better.

[FKAri]

When we compare Nadal & Federer we can talk about first round losses. You're really comparing Bulls & Rockets and Bulls were overall much better.

Basketball's a tricky sport like that. Nobody says this in baseball or football, understandably. And basketball isn't a solo sport but it's in that interesting middle ground where a guy really can carry a squad.

[lakerstekkenn]

Much more efficient & reliable scorer. On defense had greater influence on games as anchor rather than being a perimeter man to man defender.
Mj had poor shooting % for all of the final 3 peat which is a fact that gets overlooked & really could been seen as a detriment to the team. Hakeem as first option was simply a strength the rockets built around. Bulls needed all elite defense to make team work around lead midrange shooter

No Hakeem wasn't better then Jordan plus they are two different type of players but Hakeem scorched prime Shaq who had a better team on paper but it would've been exciting to see prime 200-202 Lakers vs prime 2 championships Huston Rockets but take Horry off of the Lakers, I got the Lakers in 7 games.

[HoopsNY]

You're cherry picking individual series. Looking at the whole Hakeem never shot under 500 during playoff campaigns of 10 or more matches. From 1992 Jordan was on the other side of that figure.

Sorry. I misinterpreted what you were saying. But it's ironic that you're accusing me of cherrypicking when you're doing the exact same thing.

From '94-'95, Hakeem averaged 30.9 PPG on .526% in the playoffs, 24.2 FGA

From '91-'92, Jordan averaged 33.0 PPG on .509% in the playoffs, 24.5 FGA

In addition, Jordan's TS% was 59% to Hakeem's 56%. You're choosing to isolate Hakeem's best years and disregard MJ's in the same argument. And even if we use data from the playoffs between '92-'93, Jordan's TS% is still higher (57%).