Larry Bird is the 2nd best player in the history

[LeCola]

He is drafted in 1979, he was 23 years old in his first season. He lost 4-5 seasons because of the era he played.

He played 9 healthy until the double achilles surgery in 1988. He never became the same player after that.

If he played in an era that medicine is advanced, maybe he could recover much better.

https://i.ibb.co/2dfcpBN/image.png

In all of those 9 healthy seasons, he has selected the All-NBA First Team. 9 consecutive All-NBA First Teams in 9 healthy seasons!

Some people say that he was a bad defender. However, he has selected All-Defensive second team in three consecutive seasons.

https://i.ibb.co/Ms8yN8X/image.png

He was always in top 4 in MVP Race in his those 9 healthy seasons;

- 3 times 1st (MVP)
- 4 times 2nd
- 1 time 3rd
- 1 time 4th (rookie season)

He performed MVP three peat between 83-86.

https://i.ibb.co/X2c7spB/image.png

[LeCola]

He played 5 Finals in those 9 health seasons:
- 1981 vs. Rockets
- 1984 vs. Lakers
- 1985 vs. Lakers
- 1986 vs. Rockets
- 1987 vs. Lakers

He has 3 rings in 5 finals: 81, 84, 86

He was FMVP 84 and 86 but also in 81 he deserved it. His FMVP was robbed:

https://i.ibb.co/5YJh3W9/image.png

In 84, he almost averaged triple double in Finals:

https://i.ibb.co/D9pQxVz/image.png

He lost finals against only Showtime Lakers which was a Big 3 team with two top 5 players in the GOAT list.

Magic, Kareem and Worthy...

85 Finals Lakers:

https://i.ibb.co/7bZ3PG3/image.png

87 Finals Lakers:

https://i.ibb.co/dcGBW50/image.png

[3ball]

Agreed.

My rankings have had him 2 or 3

Btw, Luka's dominance elevates Bird

Bird was taller with massive hands - a superior talent that would have today's handle:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494029-Luka-s-low-dribbles-and-hide-and-seek-around-screens-reminds-me-of-this

[coastalmarker99]

Agreed.

My rankings have had him 2 or 3

Btw, Luka's dominance elevates Bird

Bird was taller with massive hands - a superior talent that would have today's handle

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowadays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had average finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average of .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his career. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

[coastalmarker99]

Bird vs. Magic: INDIVIDUAL stats in PLAYOFFS

Bad news for Bird's fans:

WS/48:
Magic: 12 of top 15. Ave 9.5.
Bird: 10 of LOWEST 11. Ave 17.3.

BPM:
Magic: 10 of top 14
Bird: Top 2 (1984 & 86). But 8 of lowest 11

PER:
Magic: 10 of top 12
Bird: Highest (1984). But 10 of lowest 13




Bird vs. Magic: INDIVIDUAL stats in PLAYOFFS

Bird:
1984 & 1986 were clearly his best POs.
Won FMVP & ring both years.
Big gap after those years.
1981 3rd best PO: 3rd ring.
Along with w/ 1988, his next best POs were 1985 & 1987: Made Finals both years.



In playoffs, Magic was more frequently consistently excellent than Bird was.

.200 and over WS/48 in POs:
7x Magic
2x Bird

Over .155 WS/48 in POs:
12x Magic
3x Bird

.155 & UNDER:
1x Magic
9x Bird



Bird vs. Magic: H2H in FINALS:

1984: Bird outplayed Magic. Celtics won.
23.7 LB's Game Score
20.4 MJ

1985: Magic slightly outplayed Bird. Lakers won.
20.9 MJ GS
19.7 LB

1987: Magic clearly outplayed Bird. Lakers won.
28.3 MJ
19.6 LB

Magic 3 of top 4:
Game Score
ORtg
DRtg
TS%


Bird vs. Magic: TEAMMATES in POs

Pretty even.

WS/48
Magic's mates: Top 2, 8 of top 12. Ave 12.5.
Bird's: 4 of top 6. Ave 13.5.

7 of top 9 made Final (5 rings).
Lowest 7: No Finals

VORP:
Bird's 7 of top 11.
Magic's 8 of top 15

13 of top 18 Finals (8 rings)
Lowest 7: No Finals


Bird vs. Magic in POs: Summation

Bird great 1984 & 86. Best along w/ Magic's 1986 & 87.
Overall, Magic clearly > Bird.

Magic > Bird 2 of 3 H2H Finals.

Teammates were pretty much even.


Bird vs. Magic in POs

Any blame?

Bird:
1980 & 1982:
Each PO, Bird's teammates had a very high WS/48 of .132.
But both teams lost ECF.
For all other GOATs: .132 & above = Final & usually a ring.

Bird under-performed in 1980 PO (.136 WS/48) & 1982 PO (.154 WS/48).



Bird vs. Magic in POs

Any blame?

Magic:
1981:
Magic under-performed & Lakers upset in 1st Rd.

1986: Lakers upset.
But Magic was great! Highest PO WS/48 (.267) of career! (Higher than any Bird WS/48, too.)

1990: Lakers upset.
But Magic was great, .222 WS/48.

Bird vs. Magic in PLAYOFFS: Summation

I personally like both of these players and think they're both among the best ever.

I was genuinely surprised that Magic > Bird by a clear margin.

Magic's superior offensive efficiency is the difference, I think.


Biggest PO Magic > Bird in offensive efficiency is shooting.

rTS%:

Bird's PO rTS%:
2x well above average (1984 & 86)
2x a little above ave
4x a little below
4x well below ave

Magic's
1x well below ave (1981: 3 games total)
12x well above

rTS%: Bird & Magic
Magic 11 of top 13

[coastalmarker99]

Jordan vs. LeBron: Individual in POs

Each w/ 13 PO runs

Ranks based on WS/48, PER, BPM

Neither clearly better. Maybe slightly MJ >LBJ

Average rank:
12.9 MJ
13.8 LBJ

LBJ 2009 is best
MJ: 4 of the top 7

No correlation with winning:
7 of top 10 made Final
6 of LOWEST 10 in Final




Jordan vs. LeBron in POs: TEAMMATES

Close:
Ave rank WS/48:
12.8 LBJ's mates
14.2 MJ's

MJ's mates:
4 of the top 5
But the LOWEST 4, too.

Positive correlation of mate's WS/48 & rings/ Finals.

Over .127 WS/48
4x (4 rings) MJ's mates
1x (1 ring) LBJ's

Under .128 in Finals
8x LBJ
2x MJ


Overall, Jordan and LeBron had similar PO performances.

Overall, Jordan's teammates and LeBron's had similar PO performances.

Based on this, I can't clearly pick between Jordan and LeBron.

Wilt vs. Kareem: Individual in PLAYOFFS

POs
18 KAJ
13 Wilt

Ranks based on WS/48, PER, BPM

Wilt slightly > KAJ

Ave Rank
14.7 Wilt
16.4 KAJ

KAJ: 4 of top 6
Wilt: 6 of top 11

Age:
Wilt: Last 6 POs were his 6 worst
KAJ: Last 4 POs: 4 of lowest 6

No correlation w/ winning

Wilt vs. Kareem: TEAMMATES in POs

Shocking disparity!
KAJ's mates >>>>>>>Wilt's mates

KAJ's mates: Top 9 WS/48 POs!
Wilt's 8 of LOWEST 12

Ave rank
13 KAJ's
20 Wilt's

Correlated w/ winning
15 of top 19 in Final
1 of lowest 12 in Final

Mates below .124 in the Finals:
6x Wilt
3x KAJ

Overall, Wilt and Kareem had similar performances in playoffs.
Kareem had more top POs, but Wilt had more of the above-average POs.
On average, then, Wilt slightly > Kareem.

Kareem's teammates were MUCH BETTER than Wilt's.
So Kareem>Wilt based on winning in POs is UNFOUNDED.


Wilt vs. Russell: Individual in PO

WC>>>BR in the regular season.
WC dropped in PO; BR up

But still, there is a gap in PO: WC>>BR

13 POs each

Ranks based on WS/48, PER

Ave rank
11.1 Wilt
15.4 BR

Wilt: 6 of top 7

High ranking & making Finals is NOT positively correlated.

Wilt vs. Russell: TEAMMATES in POs

Shocking disparity!
BR's mates >>>>>>>WC's

BR's mates: Top 7 WS/48! 13 of top 18.
WC's: Lowest 8!

Ave rank:
8.8 BR's mates
18.2 WC's mates

High positive correlation of mates' WS/48 & winning:
17 of top 17 in Final
1 of lowest 9 in Final


Wilt was clearly better than Russell in playoffs according to WS/48 & PER.

Russell's teammates were MUCH BETTER than Wilt's.

So Russell>Wilt based on winning in POs is UNFOUNDED.

Wilt > Russell


Magic vs. Bird: Individual in POs

Ranks based on WS/48, PER, BPM

Clearly Magic>Bird

Magic:
11 of top 14
9.9 Ave

Bird:
9 of LOWEST 11
16.2 Ave

Interestingly, there IS a positive correlation of high ranking & winning:
14 of top 16 made Finals
0 of LOWEST 9 made Finals


Magic vs. Bird: TEAMMATES in POs

Ranking based on WS/48:

Close:
Magic's mates: 12.5 ave.
Top 2 and 8 of top 12

Bird's mates: 13.5 ave.
4 of top 6.

Interestingly, there's NOT a strong positive correlation of high mates' WS/48 and making Finals.


Overall, Magic clearly had better PO performances than Bird.

Overall, Magic's teammates and Bird's had similar PO performances.

Magic > Bird.

Overall in Playoffs: Summation:

Jordan = LeBron
Wilt = Kareem
Wilt > Russell
Magic > Bird

[LeCola]

What a great spam. :lol

:01 - post with 5611 characters. :applause:

:05 - post with 2564 characters. :applause:

:07 - post with 3125 characters. :applause:

Total 11300 characters in 6 minutes span. :bowdown:

[3ball]

Michael Jordan is #1 all-time in BPM, VORP, PER and WS/48

So he has the highest production rate of all time, while winning the most rings in 3-pointer history as the best player..

Goat stats + goat winning = GOAT

Bird is #2 or 3 because he had the next best combination of stats and organic winning

(VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to go by season, where Jordan has all the top VORP seasons)

[1987_Lakers]

Michael Jordan is #1 all-time in BPM, VORP, PER and WS/48

So he has the highest production rate of all time, while winning the most rings in 3-pointer history as the best player..

Goat stats + goat winning = GOAT

Bird is #2 or 3 because he had the next best combination of stats and organic winning

(VORP is an accumulation stat based on games played, so you have to go by season, where Jordan has all the top VORP seasons)

Bird > MJ

I mean just look at the '87-'88 stretch where they matched up 10 times in the season and once in the playoffs. Both were healthy and MVP caliber players so no excuses for either player...


11/14/86
Bird - 37/10/5 (13/25 shooting)
Jordan - 48/5/1 (17/33 shooting)

Celtics win, I'd say it's a wash though.

01/02/87
Bird - 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan - 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win, Bird easily wins the matchup. Highlights of the game here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=3ChmRhlFzk0&feature=emb_title
. As you can see Jordan made a pitiful attempt at guarding him.

27/01/87
Bird - 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan - 30/6/4 (38%)

Celtics win. Wash.

28/01/87
Bird - 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan - 27/4/4 (48%)
Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

27/03/87
Bird - 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan - 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

17/04/87
Bird - 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan - 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

12/01/88
Bird - 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan - 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

18/03/88
Bird - 19/10/6
Jordan - 50/9/5

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head.

20/03/88
Bird - 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan - 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup. Highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg&feature=emb_title

21/04/88
Bird - 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan - 39/3/8 (51.5%)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMjK-60H-k

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup *yawn*


Bird's record in this stretch? 9-1 while outperforming him in nearly every game. What makes this worse? Bird made Jordan look like a child when Jordan tried to guard him. Meanwhile the possessions I saw Bird guard Jordan, he defended him quite well (definitly wasn't gambling for steals to leave him open in the post).

Moreover, Jordan is 0-6 in the playoffs including this disaster in '87: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVMJSCTj5Y (Jordan makes 0 shots in the 4th quarter...Bulls had a 7 point lead with 11 minutes left...but Bird showed up when it mattered while Jordan was no where to be seen)

Kind of makes Jordan's '88 MVP come off as even more of a joke, no? Not that I really care but all you really hear about is the 63 points.

[FultzNationRISE]

He has an argument.

Tbh a lot of guys are in that discussion. Kareem, MJ, Magic, Russell.

Lebron's spot at #1 is more or less untouchable, but #2 is pretty much wide open for debate.

[Lebron23]

If one were to take a long deep look at Bird's long list of playoff failures they would see why he is not ranked top 5 of all time by both fans and the media nowadays

1980- Averaged a .51;1 TS% in the postseason. In-game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had an 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .53;2 TS% in the postseason. He had average finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .41;9 shooting and .46;0 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .47;4 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .47;8 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .60;7 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoffs of his career. The Celtics win the title over the Lakers in a massive upset.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average of .53.6 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular-season average. His Finals TS% is just .52.7. Not only that, but the Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .61.5 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In-game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.37.5) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .37.7 shooting and .49.2 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .53.8 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .53.9 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .49.0 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .44.6 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular-season average. He has a .51.4 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .54.0 TS%, 5 under.52.0 TS%, and 3 under .50.0 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span.

From 88-92, he had an 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird, you get a nice 4-year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that, you get a 4-year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically, out of Bird's 13-year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .48.5 in his career. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .47.2. Which is bad enough, but, wait...it gets worse. He shot a career .45.5 in his five finals. In fact, he shot under .39.9 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .49.9...eleven times (including two games of under .29.9!) His high Finals series was only .48.8, and his low was .41.9.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

Solid Posts. He is in my top 5

[Shooter]

He has an argument.

Tbh a lot of guys are in that discussion. Kareem, MJ, Magic, Russell.

Lebron's spot at #1 is more or less untouchable, but #2 is pretty much wide open for debate.

100%
It's a wide open gap after Le7631

[LeCola]

100%
It's a wide open gap after Le7631

There is a huge gap between Lebron and Bir it is true. And that gap is filled by 6-8 other players.

1- Jordan
2- Bird

.
.
.
Some other players
.
.
.

Lebron

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird was (for his standards) quite pedestrian in the playoffs outside of '84-'87, and even in those years he had some poor stretches in the '85 & '87 Finals. If he were held to the same standards as LeBron he would get eviscerated for many of his playoff performances

[Shooter]

He has an argument.

Tbh a lot of guys are in that discussion. Kareem, MJ, Magic, Russell.

Lebron's spot at #1 is more or less untouchable, but #2 is pretty much wide open for debate.

https://i.postimg.cc/vZbhrygm/Bird-6-0-vs-MJ.png

[colts19]

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

Don't have time to go into all of this, but as far as 81 goes. Maxwell won Finals MVP when he out scored Bird by less than 2.5 pts a game. Lets look at the rest of the stats. Rebounds Bird 92, Max 57, Bird by 35. Assist Bird 42, Max 17, Bird by 25, Steals Bird 14. Max 1, Bird by 13, Blocks Bird 6, Max 3, Bird by 3. So who do you think was MVP. Most of Maxwell's points came off Bird's feeding him layups from a foot away. I watched that series and believe me Bird was by far the best player on the court. Which would you rather have.

Max 2.4 pts
Bird 35 more rbs
Bird 25 more assist
Bird 13 more steals
Bird 3 more blocks

[kenneth_griffin]

if we're just talking straight up and not added value for being a "rare center" or being "dominant" because of their body

it goes

#1 Jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Magic
#4 Bird


only 4 that matter in hindsight

everyone else has too many flaws tbh

[3ball]

Bird is everything that Luka could be if he didn't dominate the ball so much and had a superior skillset that got the most out of star teammates like Porzingas

[mr4speed]

Bird vs. Magic: INDIVIDUAL stats in PLAYOFFS

Bad news for Bird's fans:

WS/48:
Magic: 12 of top 15. Ave 9.5.
Bird: 10 of LOWEST 11. Ave 17.3.

BPM:
Magic: 10 of top 14
Bird: Top 2 (1984 & 86). But 8 of lowest 11

PER:
Magic: 10 of top 12
Bird: Highest (1984). But 10 of lowest 13




Bird vs. Magic: INDIVIDUAL stats in PLAYOFFS

Bird:
1984 & 1986 were clearly his best POs.
Won FMVP & ring both years.
Big gap after those years.
1981 3rd best PO: 3rd ring.
Along with w/ 1988, his next best POs were 1985 & 1987: Made Finals both years.



In playoffs, Magic was more frequently consistently excellent than Bird was.

.200 and over WS/48 in POs:
7x Magic
2x Bird

Over .155 WS/48 in POs:
12x Magic
3x Bird

.155 & UNDER:
1x Magic
9x Bird



Bird vs. Magic: H2H in FINALS:

1984: Bird outplayed Magic. Celtics won.
23.7 LB's Game Score
20.4 MJ

1985: Magic slightly outplayed Bird. Lakers won.
20.9 MJ GS
19.7 LB

1987: Magic clearly outplayed Bird. Lakers won.
28.3 MJ
19.6 LB

Magic 3 of top 4:
Game Score
ORtg
DRtg
TS%


Bird vs. Magic: TEAMMATES in POs

Pretty even.

WS/48
Magic's mates: Top 2, 8 of top 12. Ave 12.5.
Bird's: 4 of top 6. Ave 13.5.

7 of top 9 made Final (5 rings).
Lowest 7: No Finals

VORP:
Bird's 7 of top 11.
Magic's 8 of top 15

13 of top 18 Finals (8 rings)
Lowest 7: No Finals


Bird vs. Magic in POs: Summation

Bird great 1984 & 86. Best along w/ Magic's 1986 & 87.
Overall, Magic clearly > Bird.

Magic > Bird 2 of 3 H2H Finals.

Teammates were pretty much even.


Bird vs. Magic in POs

Any blame?

Bird:
1980 & 1982:
Each PO, Bird's teammates had a very high WS/48 of .132.
But both teams lost ECF.
For all other GOATs: .132 & above = Final & usually a ring.

Bird under-performed in 1980 PO (.136 WS/48) & 1982 PO (.154 WS/48).



Bird vs. Magic in POs

Any blame?

Magic:
1981:
Magic under-performed & Lakers upset in 1st Rd.

1986: Lakers upset.
But Magic was great! Highest PO WS/48 (.267) of career! (Higher than any Bird WS/48, too.)

1990: Lakers upset.
But Magic was great, .222 WS/48.

Bird vs. Magic in PLAYOFFS: Summation

I personally like both of these players and think they're both among the best ever.

I was genuinely surprised that Magic > Bird by a clear margin.

Magic's superior offensive efficiency is the difference, I think.


Biggest PO Magic > Bird in offensive efficiency is shooting.

rTS%:

Bird's PO rTS%:
2x well above average (1984 & 86)
2x a little above ave
4x a little below
4x well below ave

Magic's
1x well below ave (1981: 3 games total)
12x well above

rTS%: Bird & Magic
Magic 11 of top 13

Lets put a little context on Magic vs Bird and playoff opponents. Magic played in a much weaker western conference and LA had an easier path to the Finals. See Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" chapter 11 pgs 49-50 where all teams were included and in the East vs West head to head matchups the East dominated the West for every single year for all 10 years of the 80's. In the 3 Finals for these teams, 84 Bird was better, 85 was a wash between Bird and Magic ( Kareem was clearly the FMVP) and 87 Magic was better. Did Bird ever play as bad as Magic did in the clutch moments of the 84 Finals? And yet you give Magic a 2 to 1 edge here? Both players have had bad games and bad series but it is pretty clear for the first 7 years, Bird and Kareem were the players drawing the defensive double teams, not Magic. Magic got a lot of wide open shots and layups due to the defensive attention given to Kareem. Magic did not have to carry the scoring load Bird did, nor did he draw the opposing team's best defender, a great example here is Michael Cooper. To illustrate how weak the West was , I once researched LA's path in the playoffs from 1980 to 1991 and LA won 103 games and lost 33 games = a win % of 75.73 Now compare that to the 9 Finals played vs the East in that same time span and LA won 24 games and lost 27 games = a win % of 47.0 = a drop of 28.73%. LA would not have been to 9 Finals if seeded in the East. Comparing the weak West vs the stronger East is going to skew the numbers in favor of Magic. I loved watching both play, but Magic had an easier path and better teammates. No disrespect intended toward Parish or McHale, but Kareem and Worthy were better. Kareem was FMVP in 85 ( and actually won the FMVP in 1980 after Magic's great game 6, until the 7 voters were asked to change their votes - see the book "Kareem" pages 140-141- because Kareem was not present). Worthy was FMVP in 88. Kareem outplayed Parish in all 3 Finals of 84,85 and 87! One last note is Bird was clearly the better player in the 81 Finals vs Maxwell, but at that time Bird shunned the press and Maxwell was a more popular, colorful and better interview. I will respect your opinion between Magic vs Bird but take exception with "Magic clearly better" without looking at their competition, roles on the team and the defensive attention each player garnered. Thanks!

[Lebron23]

Bird was (for his standards) quite pedestrian in the playoffs outside of '84-'87, and even in those years he had some poor stretches in the '85 & '87 Finals. If he were held to the same standards as LeBron he would get eviscerated for many of his playoff performances

Lebron is rank higher than Bird. OP is from Turkey, and never watch basketball. The guy is herding sheep's, and eating goat poop.

[3ball]

What's worse:

Having your 8 seed get owned by Bird, or having your super-team get owned by Dirk, Duncan, and KD?

[Smoke117]

I’ll take peak Bird over peak Jordan any day of the week.

[TAZORAC]

Larry Bird wasn't even better then Kevin Mchale.

Larry Bird isn't impressive statistically or by watching him (eye test)

[Shooter]

Oh, is this a serious thread?

Bird went to five Finals and was outscored by his OWN TEAMMATE in 3 of them :lol

Next

[Shooter]

What's worse:

Having your 8 seed get owned by Bird, or having your super-team get owned by Dirk, Duncan, and KD?

ppgz bro. Right? Isnt' that all that matters?

Bird went to five Finals and was outscored by his OWN TEAMMATE in 3 of them :lol

Next

[colts19]

Oh, is this a serious thread?

Bird went to five Finals and was outscored by his OWN TEAMMATE in 3 of them :lol

Next

He got outscored by his own teammate in 3 of them because he drew all the defensive attention and made his teammates better with his passing and all-around BB IQ. Read my earlier post about 1981 and Maxwell. Unlike the guy in your avatar, Bird didn't care about getting his stats, he only cared about making his team better.

[Bawkish]

ppgz bro. Right? Isnt' that all that matters?

Bird went to five Finals and was outscored by his OWN TEAMMATE in 3 of them :lol

Next

Bron won 4 rings and was bailed out in the last seconds by his own teammate in 2 of them

Asterisk rings LOL

[colts19]

Lets put a little context on Magic vs Bird and playoff opponents. Magic played in a much weaker western conference and LA had an easier path to the Finals. See Dave Heeren's "Basketball Abstract" chapter 11 pgs 49-50 where all teams were included and in the East vs West head to head matchups the East dominated the West for every single year for all 10 years of the 80's. In the 3 Finals for these teams, 84 Bird was better, 85 was a wash between Bird and Magic ( Kareem was clearly the FMVP) and 87 Magic was better. Did Bird ever play as bad as Magic did in the clutch moments of the 84 Finals? And yet you give Magic a 2 to 1 edge here? Both players have had bad games and bad series but it is pretty clear for the first 7 years, Bird and Kareem were the players drawing the defensive double teams, not Magic. Magic got a lot of wide open shots and layups due to the defensive attention given to Kareem. Magic did not have to carry the scoring load Bird did, nor did he draw the opposing team's best defender, a great example here is Michael Cooper. To illustrate how weak the West was , I once researched LA's path in the playoffs from 1980 to 1991 and LA won 103 games and lost 33 games = a win % of 75.73 Now compare that to the 9 Finals played vs the East in that same time span and LA won 24 games and lost 27 games = a win % of 47.0 = a drop of 28.73%. LA would not have been to 9 Finals if seeded in the East. Comparing the weak West vs the stronger East is going to skew the numbers in favor of Magic. I loved watching both play, but Magic had an easier path and better teammates. No disrespect intended toward Parish or McHale, but Kareem and Worthy were better. Kareem was FMVP in 85 ( and actually won the FMVP in 1980 after Magic's great game 6, until the 7 voters were asked to change their votes - see the book "Kareem" pages 140-141- because Kareem was not present). Worthy was FMVP in 88. Kareem outplayed Parish in all 3 Finals of 84,85 and 87! One last note is Bird was clearly the better player in the 81 Finals vs Maxwell, but at that time Bird shunned the press and Maxwell was a more popular, colorful and better interview. I will respect your opinion between Magic vs Bird but take exception with "Magic clearly better" without looking at their competition, roles on the team and the defensive attention each player garnered. Thanks!

Wow, if you changed the name to Lebron and was talking about the weak east in the years Lebron played it sounds like a carbon copy of magic in the West.

[Lebron23]

Bron won 4 rings and was bailed out in the last seconds by his own teammate in 2 of them

Asterisk rings LOL

You are a clown.

[Lebron23]

He got outscored by his own teammate in 3 of them because he drew all the defensive attention and made his teammates better with his passing and all-around BB IQ. Read my earlier post about 1981 and Maxwell. Unlike the guy in your avatar, Bird didn't care about getting his stats, he only cared about making his team better.

I doubt Larry Bird can win a playoffs series with Boobie Gibson as his 2nd scoring option

[LeCola]

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in two of them, and in fact, lost out to a teammate in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the second-best player on the floor in two more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

Don't have time to go into all of this, but as far as 81 goes. Maxwell won Finals MVP when he out scored Bird by less than 2.5 pts a game. Lets look at the rest of the stats. Rebounds Bird 92, Max 57, Bird by 35. Assist Bird 42, Max 17, Bird by 25, Steals Bird 14. Max 1, Bird by 13, Blocks Bird 6, Max 3, Bird by 3. So who do you think was MVP. Most of Maxwell's points came off Bird's feeding him layups from a foot away. I watched that series and believe me Bird was by far the best player on the court. Which would you rather have.

Max 2.4 pts
Bird 35 more rbs
Bird 25 more assist
Bird 13 more steals
Bird 3 more blocks

His FMVP is clearly robbed.

I count 6 assists to Maxwell only in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpRWgezvXCA

1:16
1:22
2:29
5:56
7:21
14:07

https://i.ibb.co/5YJh3W9/image.png

[Shooter]

He has an argument.

Tbh a lot of guys are in that discussion. Kareem, MJ, Magic, Russell.

Lebron's spot at #1 is more or less untouchable, but #2 is pretty much wide open for debate.



This