PG13: Ayton is more agile, more of a presence down low and better finisher than Rudy

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

https://twitter.com/YoungNBA/status/1406740892736638980

Didnt say Rudy flatout but than any other big they faced :lol:lol

Imagine your $205 million big and "DPOY" being pretty much worse than a nikka on a rookie contract who was dumb enough to fail an NBA drug test :lol

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Ayton is a lockdown man to man defender too and locked down Davis and jokic the first two rounds.

That 2018 draft is starting to turn out as the new 1984 draft

Hakeem Ayton

Trae Jordan

Luka Barkley

[HBK_Kliq_2]

And Bagley is obviously sam bowie hahahaha

[plowking]

Ayton is a lockdown man to man defender too and locked down Davis and jokic the first two rounds.

That 2018 draft is starting to turn out as the new 1984 draft

Hakeem Ayton

Trae Jordan

Luka Barkley

Davis was injured, and Jokic put up 25/13/6 in some pretty limited time against them due to blowouts.

Great take though.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Davis was injured, and Jokic put up 25/13/6 in some pretty limited time against them due to blowouts.

Great take though.

Ayton didnt defend Jokic the whole game. Not sure why ppl still post series stats like theyre guarding them 40 minutes a game.

https://twitter.com/GeraldBourguet/status/1403791454753878016

Jokic got CLAMPED with Ayton on him. And that wasnt even the worst part. Babybois defense got EXPLOITED badly on the pick and roll and isos. CP and Book shooting practice shots on the midrange. Ayton getting roll finishes at the basket at will hahahaha. Jokic no can defend.

Its not just his defense on bigs Ayton is looking like a playoff animal and top 5 defender in the league.

https://twitter.com/TheValleyStats/status/1404295675345391620

[Im so nba'd out]

Ayton is more agile, more of a presence down low and better finisher than Rudy

yall literally couldnt play a center if he was in a game because toody would disrupt the game too much lol...fk outta here lying. we get it, you dont like the dude but come on now.... be believable

The man made yall run 5 out just so yall could score enough to keep up with the jazz

[ArbitraryWater]

Xiao fuming



PG13 is just trolling, he says

[wagexslave]

As a Suns fan, there's 0 chance I'd trade Ayton for Rudy, and that's before even getting into their contract situations which makes it even worse. And unlike a lot of people on here I respect Rudy's defense and impact. He's a very good player and aside from trolling Xiao and his bad contract, idk why people shit on him so much.

But I honestly believe Ayton's defense as of right now is at least almost just as good, maybe even better because he's more versatile. Ayton passes when it comes to the eye test as well, you can just see the other team struggling to deal with him usually no matter who they switch onto him. Ayton excels defensively in a lot of situations that Rudy gets exposed in. He has the speed and athleticism, and verticality to switch onto any position. Very few players have the speed to abuse him.

Ayton's ceiling as a defender is ridiculous. It just gets slept on because he was known for being a poor defender in college, and he doesn't get as much sexy "normal" stats that show up on standard box scores like blocks and steals. But when you get into advanced head to head matchup stats you see his impact. Or better yet when you just watch him play. Especially in the playoffs where he's been playing the best ball of his life consistently every game. He makes so many people miss shots when he's on them, who are usually money.

Obviously he's much better offensively than Rudy and improving fast, and he's a 22 year old who's extremely coachable with a ceiling as high as the moon... realistically he's only going to get way better on the offensive end from here on out. In this playoffs alone I've seen so much growth in his game. He's finally learning that nobody can stop him when he's aggressive, and it's a beautiful thing to see.

[Smoke117]

Ayton is a lockdown man to man defender too and locked down Davis and jokic the first two rounds.

That 2018 draft is starting to turn out as the new 1984 draft

Hakeem Ayton

Trae Jordan

Luka Barkley

Your takes on players defense is worse than your takes on Kawhit. You just don't know anything about basketball, period.

[ArbitraryWater]

So, lets line up all the morons that think Gobert > Ayton:

Xiao
Smoke


anyone else?

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Only thing Rudy does better than Ayton is protect the rim in a regular season schedule

I don't even think he's a better defender in the yoffs.

Ayton already forced Lue to adjust and play Zubac in game 2 when they got away with playing all guard and wing lineups VS Toody all series. Ayton got a nice jump hook and footwork down low he damn near automatic. Oh and he ended up dunking a game winner on Zu :roll:

But but muh screen assist:roll:

Nikkas on a rookie deal better than the 205 million dollar man. WOAT contract

[Smoke117]

So, lets line up all the morons that think Gobert > Ayton:

Xiao
Smoke


anyone else?

Rudy is clearly the higher impact player at this point. A small sample size in the playoffs doesn’t change that. Ayton hasn’t done anything at a consistent level to be put over Gobert. I don’t even care about Gobert. Everything I’ve said in relation to him and Mitchell is to pour gasoline on the flames and troll. Trying to put Ayton over him, though, is absolutely ****ing moronic.

[ArbitraryWater]

Rudy is clearly the higher impact player at this point. A small sample size in the playoffs doesn’t change that. Ayton hasn’t done anything at a consistent level to be put over Gobert. I don’t even care about Gobert. Everything I’ve said in relation to him and Mitchell is to pour gasoline on the flames and troll. Trying to put Ayton over him, though, is absolutely ****ing moronic.


You ****ing retard.

You ****ing **** dumbass


This type of IQ should not be allowed on bball forums

[SATAN]

Why are people shitting on Rudy so much? What did he do to you all?

Who cares if he has a big contract. He'd be an idiot to turn it down.

[wagexslave]

Rudy is clearly the higher impact player at this point. A small sample size in the playoffs doesn’t change that. Ayton hasn’t done anything at a consistent level to be put over Gobert. I don’t even care about Gobert. Everything I’ve said in relation to him and Mitchell is to pour gasoline on the flames and troll. Trying to put Ayton over him, though, is absolutely ****ing moronic.

Yet if he's the higher impact player then why are the Clippers players and fans admitting that Ayton is already a much bigger issue than Rudy was. Even if you give Rudy the edge on defense(which is honestly situational as I already said, since Ayton excels in a lot of situations Rudy struggles in). Not to mention the fact that Ayton is only 22.

Also the fact that he's playing his best ball in the playoffs when it matters most is a GOOD thing, and even more impressive when you consider it's only his first playoff appearance ever. What contender would ever chose a big who's great in reg season but average in the playoffs over a player who's average in the regular season but great in the playoffs?

[Spurs m8]

Why are people shitting on Rudy so much? What did he do to you all?

Who cares if he has a big contract. He'd be an idiot to turn it down.

It's since that Chinese Jazz fan was shitting on Mitchell and being a d1ckhead about Rudy.

Kinda like how that Kawhi guy makes every single post about Kawhi, even if its got nothing to do with Kawhi...whilst he also knows nothing about the rules or history of the game and league.

And then the Bron stans...obviously.

Stans make the general posters turn on their obsessions...mainly for their sheer disrespect to other players, and delusion that comes with their stanning

[Xiao Yao You]

when Ayton is carrying a crappy team let me know.

[Spurs m8]

Here we go....lmfao

[Smoke117]

Yet if he's the higher impact player then why are the Clippers players and fans admitting that Ayton is already a much bigger issue than Rudy was. Even if you give Rudy the edge on defense(which is honestly situational as I already said, since Ayton excels in a lot of situations Rudy struggles in). Not to mention the fact that Ayton is only 22.

Also the fact that he's playing his best ball in the playoffs when it matters most is a GOOD thing, and even more impressive when you consider it's only his first playoff appearance ever. What contender would ever chose a big who's great in reg season but average in the playoffs over a player who's average in the regular season but great in the playoffs?

Yeah, it’s really not situational. Gobert was a vastly superior defensive player throughout the season. It wasn’t even close. The impact defensively was day and night. Ayton was average at best for a center. A few games in the playoffs doesn’t make it “situational” or put Ayton overall anywhere near Gobert. That’s idiotic.

[Rudeboy3]

lockdown AD? in the game where ad wasn't injured he put 34 points each on 50% shooting. Jokic was 25/13/6. He isn't locking down anyone. Ayton is more Deandre Jordan than he is rudy, ad or jokes

[wagexslave]

lockdown AD? in the game where ad wasn't injured he put 34 points each on 50% shooting. Jokic was 25/13/6. He isn't locking down anyone. Ayton is more Deandre Jordan than he is rudy, ad or jokes

lol Nice try. Obviously you didn't watch the games, but you should AT LEAST check the defensive matchup stats before you type something stupid as f*ck.

AD's total combined round 1 stats when Ayton was guarding him: 33 points on 11/29 shooting (37.9% FG), 2/5 from 3pt (40%), 4 assists

Joker's total combined round 2 stats when Ayton was guarding him: 53 points on 24/59 shooting(40.7% FG), 2/12 from 3pt (16.7%), 14 assists

Oh btw on the offensive end, when AD was guarding Ayton he shot 100% FG. When Jokic was guarding Ayton he shot 64% FG. They literally couldn't do shit to stop him, he was straight up sh*tting in their Cheerios and making them eat it.

Only reason AD even had those 2 good games was because he was flopping like crazy flailing his arms yelling "AHHHH" any time someone breathed on him and the refs were giving him phantom whistles granting him trips to the line at an insane rate, it was a joke and painful to watch. Dude shot over 20 FTs in game 2 alone. But you'd know that if you actually watched it.

[JohnMax]

People love to praise Gobert on D but give me a big guy like Ayton or Embiid that can move and switch any day come playoff time.

[Rudeboy3]

Exactly what defensive matchups? AD Jokic still ate him up, gave up 20 fts? You’re a ****ing bum. Giannis even ****ed him the regular season

[DOUBLE DRIBBLE]

Exactly what defensive matchups? AD Jokic still ate him up, gave up 20 fts? You’re a ****ing bum. Giannis even ****ed him the regular seasonAyton was definitely a problem for them. Even Jokic says Ayton’s a problem. You are definitely one of them boxscore watching clowns that thinks the boxscores tell the whole story. Dude just posted the defensive stats on you casuals and you’re still trying to argue and plead your case. :roll:

[Axe]

People love to praise Gobert on D but give me a big guy like Ayton or Embiid that can move and switch any day come playoff time.
Big guys can that can have big impact on both ends

[wagexslave]

Exactly what defensive matchups? AD Jokic still ate him up, gave up 20 fts? You’re a ****ing bum. Giannis even ****ed him the regular season

LOL Continuing to prove my point, which is that you don't have a single f*cking clue about what you're talking about. Giannis literally shot 10 of 24 when guarded by Ayton this season 41.7% FG, 0 of 4 from 3PT

Some other noteworthy matchups guarded by Ayton in the reg season:

Jokic went 13 of 34

Embiid 11 of 23

Jamal Murray 8 of 24

Luka doncic 5 of 14

Sabonis 9 of 20

Christian Wood 11 of 25

[tpols]

Ayton has impressive touch on his jumper and hook shot. Also good court awareness where to be. He doesn't play soft either flopping so he's a respectable all star level offensive center and pretty good on defense too which I didn't expect. He saved the suns all night yesterday.

[Stephonit]

This is going to be a test for Gobert. He needs to be taking down notes and imprinting it in his mind who is never ever going to win against him again.

[highwhey]

Exactly what defensive matchups? AD Jokic still ate him up, gave up 20 fts? You’re a ****ing bum. Giannis even ****ed him the regular season

Box score watcher confirmed

[PejaNowitzki]

Rudy is clearly the higher impact player at this point. A small sample size in the playoffs doesn’t change that. Ayton hasn’t done anything at a consistent level to be put over Gobert. I don’t even care about Gobert. Everything I’ve said in relation to him and Mitchell is to pour gasoline on the flames and troll. Trying to put Ayton over him, though, is absolutely ****ing moronic.

Gobert is better than Ayton at one thing and that is rim protection. If Gobert had any offensive moves whatsoever, the Suns and Jazz are playing right now but he doesn't so they couldn't take advantage of the Clippers small ball attack the way Phoenix has been able to with Ayton.

[tpols]

Rudy is clearly the higher impact player at this point. A small sample size in the playoffs doesn’t change that. Ayton hasn’t done anything at a consistent level to be put over Gobert. I don’t even care about Gobert. Everything I’ve said in relation to him and Mitchell is to pour gasoline on the flames and troll. Trying to put Ayton over him, though, is absolutely ****ing moronic.

There's a big playoff sample size on Rudy. And it's not good. Its not just losing, its about how you lose. He is the main reason they lost ~ offensive ineptitude + exploitable perimeter defense. Ayton otoh defends the perimeter better, and on offense has a post game and a midrange jumper. The fact that Ayton is playing better in the playoffs right now than Gobert ever has in many tries should show you he's a more complete basketball player.

[Xiao Yao You]

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/


Trying to stop a popular NBA fan narrative is like standing in front of a train. But let’s get this out of the way: this series did not say the things about Gobert that many people are claiming it said.


In fact, for much of this series, Gobert was Utah’s best and only chance of really slowing the Clippers down at all, even when they were small and when they abandoned pick-and-roll play altogether to force the 3-time Defensive Player of the Year to guard in space.




By the end of Game 2, the Clippers realized that the way to avoid Gobert’s game-changing defensive presence was to stop running pick-and-roll offense almost completely. They committed fully to small lineups and isolation play, and the Jazz’s initial response was to guard them straight up, with man-to-man defense. And in that context, Rudy again was excellent.


Through five games, Gobert was actually Utah’s best isolation defender in the series, per tracking stats shared by JazzFilmRoom’s Ben Dowsett (https://twitter.com/Ben_Dowsett/status/1405548778585608193?s=20). Gobert wasn’t the reason man defense wasn’t working; everybody else was. George and Jackson had no problem getting right around the first defender, only now there was no Gobert in the paint to offer last-line defensive help.


So the Jazz made another system tweak. By the end of Game 4, Quin Snyder had realized that, while Gobert could hold his own guarding in space, other Jazz defenders were just dying at the point of attack without Gobert behind them to deter drivers. So that’s when he made the decision to let Rudy be Rudy (https://twitter.com/danclayt0n/status/1404879326953152512): he started pulling Gobert off of his man to show on drives.




Similarly, the gambit actualy helped Utah get back in Game 4, as Gobert turned multiple would-be drivers away from the lane (https://twitter.com/danclayt0n/status/1404714928359886848). It was hit-or-miss in Game 5. In the first half of Game 6, it worked fantastically well: the Clippers were shooting just 6-for-20 from outside, and nobody had really punished the Jazz for exposing the perimeter in an attempt to take away layups.


But it’s important to remember that they were in this scheme to begin with not because of Gobert’s supposed limitations as a perimeter defender, but because of what his teammates were allowing when he wasn’t near the paint.


Jackson had 10 assists in the second half of Game 6 alone, and it’s easy to watch his assist reel and focus on the tough decision at the end of each play — to close out or not to close out? But if you watch what happens at the beginning of these plays, the complete and utter ease with with Jackson dances around various defenders without even needing a pick, then you understand why the Jazz needed so badly needed Gobert to sag into the paint.




Like, what happens on those drives if Gobert ISN’T there?


“The problem is if I don’t come and help, we give up layups,” a frustrated Gobert said the day after the Game 6 ouster. “The gameplan was for us to let Terance Mann shoot rather than letting Reggie Jackson or PG get layups.”


So yeah, this scheme was never about Rudy’s limitations: it was about the other four guys’ inability to stay in front of the basketball.
Snyder seemed to concur: “There’s things we didn’t execute on, beginning with being able to defend the ball up front.”


Snyder said that he tried variations on the scheme once the Clippers started hitting. Instead of simply letting Mann and others shoot, they started having Gobert stunt or fake the closeout, or they’d rotate down from the top. For a while they even went into zone defense. But the failure on those plays happens way before the ball ever even gets to the shooter’s hands: the Jazz just simply have to be better at guarding the ball.




But what they shouldn’t do is conclude that these breakdowns say things about Gobert’s ability to guard 5-out lineups. Even in 24 minutes that were far from his most impactful defensive half of basketball, the Gobert component of these scheme is not what broke down over and over again.


“Teams have spaced Rudy in the strong corner the entire season,” Snyder acknowledged earlier in the series. “To me, it’s a question of how we execute.”


In other words, what the Clippers did to the Jazz was just an extreme version of something they saw all season long on the way to a 52-20 record. It’s not necessarily the sign of a fatal flaw — and certainly not indicative of an inability on Gobert’s part to guard 5-out lineups. Once more for the people in the back: Gobert’s not the reason they had to abandon man defense and employ this riskier scheme.



So apparently Ayton just has better teammates and coaching

[Xiao Yao You]

Justin Kubatko: Gobert is the only player in NBA history to average a double-double and shoot at least 60% from the field through his first eight seasons (https://*********.com/social/).
– via Twitter jkubatko (https://twitter.com/jkubatko)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Justin Kubatko: Gobert is the only player in NBA history to average a double-double and shoot at least 60% from the field through his first eight seasons (https://*********.com/social/).
– via Twitter jkubatko (https://twitter.com/jkubatko)

Also the only 6th option to receive a 200m contract

Setting all sorts of records.

Btw good job getting ousted by a team without their best player.

Superstar young guard, perennial all star PG, and elite role players and still can't get out of thr 2nd round because Gobert is a liability on both ends

He's the worst player ever

[Xiao Yao You]

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/

[Vino24]

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/

Rudy isn’t Ayton that’s for sure

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

How come Ayton isnt being torched by small ball and is able to murk them on offense and the glass when a $205 million big couldnt?

Anyone knows?

[iamgine]

Gobert is a monster defensively. How else a franchise where you have the likes of Mitchell, Bojan, Ingles, Clarkson getting big minutes be top 5 in defense. Without Gobert they might be matching the Blazers in defense.

Whether Ayton is better in some matchups doesn't change that.

[Xiao Yao You]

How come Ayton isnt being torched by small ball and is able to murk them on offense and the glass when a $205 million big couldnt?

Anyone knows?

better teammates and coach

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-re...rsus-clippers/ (https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/)

[Vino24]

better teammates and coach

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-re...rsus-clippers/ (https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/)

3rd place in coty. You throw everyone under the bus but Rudy

[Overdrive]

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/











So apparently Ayton just has better teammates and coaching

Judging by the url definately not biased. You make people hate Rudy with your autistic stanning.

[iamgine]

I wish Rudy would develop a reliable hook shot and 1 countermove. With his height and length, it could be a skyhook-lite. So that when Utah has nothing going on, they can just throw it to Rudy and he'll get a decent shot off.

[Xiao Yao You]

Judging by the url definately not biased. You make people hate Rudy with your autistic stanning.

He has the best insights unlike the national media who think Mitchell is the best Jazz player ever or that Rudy was the sole reason the Clippers won. Not like he didn't blame other Jazz men. Just sees that it wasn't Rudy's fault and that his teammates and coach didn't carry their weight.

[Manny98]

He has the best insights unlike the national media who think Mitchell is the best Jazz player ever or that Rudy was the sole reason the Clippers won. Not like he didn't blame other Jazz men. Just sees that it wasn't Rudy's fault and that his teammates and coach didn't carry their weight.

Yep everybody's fault but Rudy *rolls eyes*

[Xiao Yao You]

Yep everybody's fault but Rudy *rolls eyes*

no one said that. Everyone is trying to blame everything on Gobert and that certainly wasn't the case unless you're a troll or just not paying attention

[8Ball]

Shaq was right about Gobert.

Shat on him for making all that money with no production. The stupid twitter world got angry.

"If you can average 10 points...."

Shaq was right.

[Manny98]

no one said that. Everyone is trying to blame everything on Gobert and that certainly wasn't the case unless you're a troll or just not paying attention
Gobert doesn't deserve 100% of the blame your right

But he's supposed to be the teams best player and didn't play to his expected standard so he deserves a good chunk of the blame that he's rightfully getting

[Xiao Yao You]

Gobert doesn't deserve 100% of the blame your right

But he's supposed to be the teams best player and didn't play to his expected standard so he deserves a good chunk of the blame that he's rightfully getting

https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/

[Xiao Yao You]

Who we blaming in Brooklyn? :confusedshrug:

[Vino24]

Ayton looks like Shaq compared to Rudy

[Xiao Yao You]

Ayton looks like Shaq compared to Rudy

The all NBA selections make Gobert look more like Shaq actually

[Carbine]

Ayton is a better defender than Gobert.

You don't really want to pick on him in screens. There's a reason why some of these Suns Clips games have been old school defensive minded games. You can't pick on Ayton like you can with a lot of bigs in the NBA. I think Ayton is a true all NBA level defender. You can't bean all NBA defender let alone DPOY if teams willingly search you out on the defensive side of the ball lol

[DABIGSALSISHA]

Not only Rudy Gobert.

Ayton is better than Jokic in this Playoffs too, so he is better than both and is one game away from going to the nba finals LEADING HIS TEAM with CP3 since Booker is nowhere to be seen in the past 3 games

[GOBB]

As a Suns fan, there's 0 chance I'd trade Ayton for Rudy, and that's before even getting into their contract situations which makes it even worse. And unlike a lot of people on here I respect Rudy's defense and impact. He's a very good player and aside from trolling Xiao and his bad contract, idk why people shit on him so much.

But I honestly believe Ayton's defense as of right now is at least almost just as good, maybe even better because he's more versatile. Ayton passes when it comes to the eye test as well, you can just see the other team struggling to deal with him usually no matter who they switch onto him. Ayton excels defensively in a lot of situations that Rudy gets exposed in. He has the speed and athleticism, and verticality to switch onto any position. Very few players have the speed to abuse him.

Ayton's ceiling as a defender is ridiculous. It just gets slept on because he was known for being a poor defender in college, and he doesn't get as much sexy "normal" stats that show up on standard box scores like blocks and steals. But when you get into advanced head to head matchup stats you see his impact. Or better yet when you just watch him play. Especially in the playoffs where he's been playing the best ball of his life consistently every game. He makes so many people miss shots when he's on them, who are usually money.

Obviously he's much better offensively than Rudy and improving fast, and he's a 22 year old who's extremely coachable with a ceiling as high as the moon... realistically he's only going to get way better on the offensive end from here on out. In this playoffs alone I've seen so much growth in his game. He's finally learning that nobody can stop him when he's aggressive, and it's a beautiful thing to see.

Ayton is better offensively. No way he’s as good of a defender as Rudy. That’s your Suns blinders on right there. Ayton has got better defensively than he was as a rookie. Maybe he will be a 2 way star in the future. But for now be real.

[GOBB]

Ayton is a better defender than Gobert.

You don't really want to pick on him in screens. There's a reason why some of these Suns Clips games have been old school defensive minded games. You can't pick on Ayton like you can with a lot of bigs in the NBA. I think Ayton is a true all NBA level defender. You can't bean all NBA defender let alone DPOY if teams willingly search you out on the defensive side of the ball lol

Yet he didn’t receive a single vote for all defensive team. I guess you watch more basketball than the people who vote. Interesting. And no a players post season performance doesn’t just negate a seasons worth of sample size. Want to argue he’s playing better defensively in the post season than Rudy has? Fine go for it. Doesn’t mean he’s better. I don’t why fans allow the playoffs to overrate a players game. But here we are...

[Xiao Yao You]

Yet he didn’t receive a single vote for all defensive team. I guess you watch more basketball than the people who vote. Interesting. And no a players post season performance doesn’t just negate a seasons worth of sample size. Want to argue he’s playing better defensively in the post season than Rudy has? Fine go for it. Doesn’t mean he’s better. I don’t why fans allow the playoffs to overrate a players game. But here we are...

and Mitchell is the greatest Jazz player ever and Trae is better than Curry...

[Axe]

With the last game ayton just made toody look like a renowned role player lol

[wagexslave]

Ayton is better offensively. No way he’s as good of a defender as Rudy. That’s your Suns blinders on right there. Ayton has got better defensively than he was as a rookie. Maybe he will be a 2 way star in the future. But for now be real.

Was a poor choice of words. When I said right now I meant specifically in the playoffs. I think in a single game scenario there's still a decent gap between them defensively. But in the playoffs Ayton's ability to switch and use lateral footwork/athleticism becomes just as valuable in a 7 game series as Gobert's superior rim protection(which isn't nearly as big of a gap as it used to be). I do think Rudy is still better defensively overall. But in the playoff series where teams game plan to exploit their weaknesses I think it's pretty damn close, and the difference in speed/athleticism becomes extremely valuable. Of course it depends on which team they're playing against though.

But anyways my point was just that I wouldn't trade Ayton for Rudy if given the chance. Even if Rudy is still superior defensively, idk if it's enough to make up in the difference of offensive potential... but more importantly the difference between age. Rudy is in his prime. What we're seeing out of Rudy is probably the best he's ever gonna play. Ayton is 22 and still developing game after game. His ceiling on offense and defense are both extremely high, and he's shown to be extremely coachable. I could definitely see him reaching a tier above Rudy in the coming years in terms of the total package.

[GOBB]

Was a poor choice of words. When I said right now I meant specifically in the playoffs. I think in a single game scenario there's still a decent gap between them defensively. But in the playoffs Ayton's ability to switch and use lateral footwork/athleticism becomes just as valuable in a 7 game series as Gobert's superior rim protection(which isn't nearly as big of a gap as it used to be). I do think Rudy is still better defensively overall. But in the playoff series where teams game plan to exploit their weaknesses I think it's pretty damn close, and the difference in speed/athleticism becomes extremely valuable. Of course it depends on which team they're playing against though.

But anyways my point was just that I wouldn't trade Ayton for Rudy if given the chance. Even if Rudy is still superior defensively, idk if it's enough to make up in the difference of offensive potential... but more importantly the difference between age. Rudy is in his prime. What we're seeing out of Rudy is probably the best he's ever gonna play. Ayton is 22 and still developing game after game. His ceiling on offense and defense are both extremely high, and he's shown to be extremely coachable. I could definitely see him reaching a tier above Rudy in the coming years in terms of the total package.

I agree. I like Aytons upside. Sky’s the limit for him. Home run picks by the Suns with Booker/Ayton duo. Granted Ayton was the #1 pick. For a #1 to look like a #1 is refreshing.

[Xiao Yao You]

Was a poor choice of words. When I said right now I meant specifically in the playoffs. I think in a single game scenario there's still a decent gap between them defensively. But in the playoffs Ayton's ability to switch and use lateral footwork/athleticism becomes just as valuable in a 7 game series as Gobert's superior rim protection(which isn't nearly as big of a gap as it used to be). I do think Rudy is still better defensively overall. But in the playoff series where teams game plan to exploit their weaknesses I think it's pretty damn close, and the difference in speed/athleticism becomes extremely valuable. Of course it depends on which team they're playing against though.

But anyways my point was just that I wouldn't trade Ayton for Rudy if given the chance. Even if Rudy is still superior defensively, idk if it's enough to make up in the difference of offensive potential... but more importantly the difference between age. Rudy is in his prime. What we're seeing out of Rudy is probably the best he's ever gonna play. Ayton is 22 and still developing game after game. His ceiling on offense and defense are both extremely high, and he's shown to be extremely coachable. I could definitely see him reaching a tier above Rudy in the coming years in terms of the total package.

Rudy had his best year so I'd hardly say he's peaked. Ayton was the top pick in the draft he should be better. Gobert was a project. You put Gobert on the Suns and they are still winning. Ayton on the Jazz and the Jazz are in the lottery though

[Carbine]

How can you say Gobert on the Sun's and they're still winning?

The Clippers had tremdous success against Gobert, why would that all of a sudden change? When he gets isolated against perimeter players, that's going to translate regardless of who he plays with. Clippers would pick on him with the Sun's just as they did when he plays with the Jazz. The point is he can't hide which is a ****ed thing to say about a DPOY. It's a joke really.

[Carbine]

Yet he didn’t receive a single vote for all defensive team. I guess you watch more basketball than the people who vote. Interesting. And no a players post season performance doesn’t just negate a seasons worth of sample size. Want to argue he’s playing better defensively in the post season than Rudy has? Fine go for it. Doesn’t mean he’s better. I don’t why fans allow the playoffs to overrate a players game. But here we are...

These same people voted Kobe all defense when he was at best an average defender. I don't base my opinion on what other people think. You shouldn't either.

I don't value regular season play. It's a long season, teams take nights off, there are a lot of crap teams out there. It's all about the playoffs for me. Jordan isn't Jordan because of what he did in the regular season. If you continue to play below expectations in the playoffs as a player you are ultimately getting exposed for your weaknesses that otherwise don't get picked on or highlighted in the regular season.

[Xiao Yao You]

How can you say Gobert on the Sun's and they're still winning?

The Clippers had tremdous success against Gobert, why would that all of a sudden change? When he gets isolated against perimeter players, that's going to translate regardless of who he plays with. Clippers would pick on him with the Sun's just as they did when he plays with the Jazz. The point is he can't hide which is a ****ed thing to say about a DPOY. It's a joke really.


https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-re...rsus-clippers/ (https://saltcityhoops.com/what-we-really-just-saw-as-jazz-collapsed-versus-clippers/)

[Xiao Yao You]

These same people voted Kobe all defense when he was at best an average defender. I don't base my opinion on what other people think. You shouldn't either.

I don't value regular season play. It's a long season, teams take nights off, there are a lot of crap teams out there. It's all about the playoffs for me. Jordan isn't Jordan because of what he did in the regular season. If you continue to play below expectations in the playoffs as a player you are ultimately getting exposed for your weaknesses that otherwise don't get picked on or highlighted in the regular season.

You have to get to the playoffs first.

[GOBB]

These same people voted Kobe all defense when he was at best an average defender. I don't base my opinion on what other people think. You shouldn't either.

I don't value regular season play. It's a long season, teams take nights off, there are a lot of crap teams out there. It's all about the playoffs for me. Jordan isn't Jordan because of what he did in the regular season. If you continue to play below expectations in the playoffs as a player you are ultimately getting exposed for your weaknesses that otherwise don't get picked on or highlighted in the regular season.

Shut the hell up. You have absolutely no valid proof ayton is a better defender because of a series where Rudy was taken advantage of on the perimeter. You fans kill me with this nonsense. Trae > Curry. Let’s start this one up as well since playoff matters.

MJ regular season was dominant. I guess his all nba selections, mvp, scoring titles, scoring avg, career points mean little vs his 6 rings. Gotcha.

[Xiao Yao You]

Shut the hell up. You have absolutely no valid proof ayton is a better defender because of a series where Rudy was taken advantage of on the perimeter. You fans kill me with this nonsense. Trae > Curry. Let’s start this one up as well since playoff matters.

MJ regular season was dominant. I guess his all nba selections, mvp, scoring titles, scoring avg, career points mean little vs his 6 rings. Gotcha.

Mitchell > Malone/Stockton/Maravich/Dantley/Gobert/Deron Williams! :roll:

[Norcaliblunt]

Ayton is better now and will only continue to be better. Gobert is a stiff whos been exposed. Who cares about individual awards in a team sport? Ayton is a team player.

When it’s all said and done the only thing Gobert is gonna be remembered for is that Covid BS.

[Xiao Yao You]

Ayton is better now and will only continue to be better. Gobert is a stiff whos been exposed. Who cares about individual awards in a team sport? Ayton is a team player.

When it’s all said and done the only thing Gobert is gonna be remembered for is that Covid BS.

The leader in screen assists, 3 time DPOY, 5 time all defense, 5th all time rebound % isn't a team player? Pretty sure he'll be remembered. The Trump virus BS is already a small footnote

[Carbine]

Shut the hell up. You have absolutely no valid proof ayton is a better defender because of a series where Rudy was taken advantage of on the perimeter. You fans kill me with this nonsense. Trae > Curry. Let’s start this one up as well since playoff matters.

MJ regular season was dominant. I guess his all nba selections, mvp, scoring titles, scoring avg, career points mean little vs his 6 rings. Gotcha.

It's sports, what proof do I need. This isn't the justice system. It's my opinion based on what I see.

MJ regular season is dominant, no question about it. But he became a better player in the playoffs.

Defense isn't or shouldn't be one of those things that come and go. For Gobert, he has been grilled too many times in the last few post seasons that you have to call it for what it is.

[GOBB]

It's sports, what proof do I need. This isn't the justice system. It's my opinion based on what I see.

MJ regular season is dominant, no question about it. But he became a better player in the playoffs.

Defense isn't or shouldn't be one of those things that come and go. For Gobert, he has been grilled too many times in the last few post seasons that you have to call it for what it is.

Hilarious because any other time you’re sitting there with proof out the ass. Stats, quotes etc

Now it’s “my opinion”. Ignore the sample size of Ayton in 3 seasons as a defender. Solely focus on the post season (his first). Got it. So logical. If you want to call out Rudy on his post season defense? By all means rock out. What we not gonna do is continue to be prisoners in the f*cking moment saying outlandish shit like Ayton is a better defender.

[Norcaliblunt]

Hilarious because any other time you’re sitting there with proof out the ass. Stats, quotes etc

Now it’s “my opinion”. Ignore the sample size of Ayton in 3 seasons as a defender. Solely focus on the post season (his first). Got it. So logical. If you want to call out Rudy on his post season defense? By all means rock out. What we not gonna do is continue to be prisoners in the f*cking moment saying outlandish shit like Ayton is a better defender.

The thing is if you actually watch the games it’s not that outlandish. Ayton doesn’t get exposed on the perimeter like Gobert. He can switch and is effective. Which can make him more valuable and yes maybe better. Simple as that.

You’re the one living in the past. The future is now and now is Ayton.

[Xiao Yao You]

The thing is if you actually watch the games it’s not that outlandish. Ayton doesn’t get exposed on the perimeter like Gobert. He can switch and is effective. Which can make him more valuable and yes maybe better. Simple as that.

You’re the one living in the past. The future is now and now is Ayton.

If you watched the games you'd see that Ayton has a better team around him and a better coach

[GOBB]

The thing is if you actually watch the games it’s not that outlandish. Ayton doesn’t get exposed on the perimeter like Gobert. He can switch and is effective. Which can make him more valuable and yes maybe better. Simple as that.

You’re the one living in the past. The future is now and now is Ayton.

You and other idiots like carbine have trouble comprehending playing better and being better are not one in the same. You can not go an entire regular season without ANYONE recognizing you’re a good defender. Then come playoffs become a better defender than guys who were recognized (with stats to back them up) for being better defenders. Doesn’t work that way. People who dismiss regular season and start their whole evaluation and assessing process in the post season are flawed as hell.

This is a classic case of a pile on event. I’m not the biggest fan of Rudy Gobert but I’m not going to say nonsense just because it’s the trendy thing to do. Which is saying Ayton is a better defender. Want to say he’s played better defense? Again rock out. But you expose your bball knowledge by believing the crap you type. Everyone wants to be “that guy”. Everyone wants to appear smarter than the other. Cut it out.

“Look at me I don’t value no one else’s opinions but my own. I stand on my own two. I conclude what I see and go from there. I don’t allow outside influences to change how I feel about my opinion. I’m my own man”.

But you spend countless time out of your life arguing who is a better player in whatever sport based on accolades picked by other people’s opinions. Weirdos.

[Carbine]

I don't think I've used stats to debate who was a better player in 5 years. Miss me with that narrative GoBB.