Why did the Bulls only go from 57 to 55 wins? Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?

[Shooter]

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant

With no drop-off in sight it begs the question: Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?

[ImKobe]

Why did the Lakers go from lottery in 2019 to winning the championship in 2020?

[iamgine]

If we're being honest, the offense suffered a lot with MJ gone. That team was not actually a 55 win team despite winning 55.

But the amazing thing is, their defense did not suffer at all, slightly improved even.

[Axe]

Simple. They still had the zen master.

[000]

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant

With no drop-off in sight it begs the question: Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?
Meltdown

[red1]

pippen.



plain and simple.

[RogueBorg]

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant

With no drop-off in sight it begs the question: Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?

Cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant and won the championship.

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"With no drop-off in sight..." I would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when MJ left is a huge drop off. But then again, the Lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round WITH Mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the Bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of MJ. Carry on.

[SATAN]

These thread titles :lol

[SATAN]

Cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant and won the championship.

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"With no drop-off in sight..." I would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when MJ left is a huge drop off. But then again, the Lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round WITH Mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the Bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of MJ. Carry on.

1-9

[RogueBorg]

If we're being honest, the offense suffered a lot with MJ gone. That team was not actually a 55 win team despite winning 55.

But the amazing thing is, their defense did not suffer at all, slightly improved even.

Including the playoffs, the '93 Bulls were 68-27 in winning it all.
The '94 Bulls were 61-31 and couldn't make the ECF.

[RogueBorg]

1-9

-86

[Shooter]

Cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant and won the championship.

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"With no drop-off in sight..." I would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when MJ left is a huge drop off. But then again, the Lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round WITH Mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the Bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of MJ. Carry on.

I don't need meltdowns I need answers :lol

[Shooter]

These thread titles :lol

:pimp::lol

[Shooter]

Why did the Lakers go from lottery in 2019 to winning the championship in 2020?

Make a thread if you're genuinely curious. Don't melt baby boi :lol

[Bronbron23]

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant

With no drop-off in sight it begs the question: Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?

What a dumb question. Bulls were a great team led by a great coach who's system didn't revolve around one guy dominating the ball and making plays for everyone like most of brons teams do. There's way less volatility in these systems when one person goes. Even if it is the teams best player. Take a good team that's well coached like the utah jazz for example. If you throw bron on that team they probably only win a few more games but they also probably win the whole thing. Take bron off that team and they're still one of the best teams in the league obviously.

This is a very low iq thread bruh:facepalm

[TheMan]

What a dumb question. Bulls were a great team led by a great coach who's system didn't revolve around one guy dominating the ball and making plays for everyone like most of brons teams do. There's way less volatility in these systems when one person goes. Even if it is the teams best player. Take a good team that's well coached like the utah jazz for example. If you throw bron on that team they probably only win a few more games but they also probably win the whole thing. Take bron off that team and they're still one of the best teams in the league obviously.

This is a very low iq thread bruh:facepalm
In other words, your typical Shooter thread...

[Bronbron23]

In other words, your typical Shooter thread...

Geah pretty much. Dude has always been a troll but since bron lost first round dude has been losing it.

[theman93]

They won 2 less games than the 1993 squad but they were significantly worse. Just compare their SRS and net ratings.

1993 - SRS: 6.17 (4th) | Net Rating: 6.8 (2nd)

1994 - SRS: 2.87 (11th) | Net Rating: 3.4 (11th)

[TheMan]

Geah pretty much. Dude has always been a troll but since bron lost first round dude has been losing it.

It's both hilarious and sad the way OP has been a mess since Bran's soul got took :(

[Shooter]

It's both hilarious and sad the way OP has been a mess since Bran's soul got took :(

Are you gonna keep chirping or answer the goddamn question?

Take a break from gazing at your cousin's pictures and f o c u s

[MadDog]

55 wins and a second round exit vs. 57 wins and a championship. Somehow the latter makes Jordan bad. :oldlol: By your subhuman logic, the 17 Warriors were inferior to the 16 team. After all, they won less games in the regular-season :confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

Are you gonna keep chirping or answer the goddamn question?

Take a break from gazing at your cousin's pictures and f o c u s

Question has already been answered, retard. Big dropoff when you win the chip in 93 with MJ and exit in the second round the following year without him...keep up.

[TheMan]

55 wins and a second round exit vs. 57 wins and a championship. Somehow the latter makes Jordan bad. :oldlol: By your subhuman logic, the 17 Warriors were inferior to the 16 team. After all, they won less games in the regular-season :confusedshrug:

Logic is not a strong point with the Bran fam, hence they stan a loser thinking he's the GOAT :(

[Shooter]

Question has already been answered, retard. Big dropoff when you win the chip in 93 with MJ and exit in the second round the following year without him...keep up.

Pete Myers replaced MJ and they went from 57 to 55 wins :lol

Why?

[RogueBorg]

Are you gonna keep chirping or answer the goddamn question?

Take a break from gazing at your cousin's pictures and f o c u s

Meltdown

[RogueBorg]

Pete Myers replaced MJ and they went from 57 to 55 wins :lol

Why?

Meltdown

[ClipperRevival]

And how many wins did the Bulls have in the other 5 seasons when they won? 61, 67, 72, 69, 62.

The fact is, that 1992-93 Bulls team did have some fatigue from defending a 2 peat AND playing in the 1992 Olympics. All those additional games and travel took a toll.

[red1]

mj would be flipping big macs at mcdonalds if it wasn't for pippen and his leadership once he got to the bulls


jordan was fine he just wasnt a winner until pip got there.

[And1AllDay]

mj would be flipping big macs at mcdonalds if it wasn't for pippen and his leadership once he got to the bulls


jordan was fine he just wasnt a winner until pip got there.

+1

mike wasnt bad he just wasnt great. pip made him a man

[97 bulls]

The Bulls didnt take the regular season serious. If they were focused, they couldve won 65 games roughly. Jordan's loss did effect them.

[ELITEpower23]

The Bulls didnt take the regular season serious. If they were focused, they couldve won 65 games roughly. Jordan's loss did effect them.

This

Chicago underachieved in 1993 during the regular seaaon

[RogueBorg]

mj would be flipping big macs at mcdonalds if it wasn't for pippen and his leadership once he got to the bulls


jordan was fine he just wasnt a winner until pip got there.

Really, flipping burgers? You can't possibly be that stupid.

[ClipperRevival]

The Bulls didnt take the regular season serious. If they were focused, they couldve won 65 games roughly. Jordan's loss did effect them.

Did you forget to switch accounts? You're the same dude that literally spends 90% of your post boosting Pip.

[ClipperRevival]

This

Chicago underachieved in 1993 during the regular seaaon

Forgot to switch accounts babyboi?

[Shooter]

Did you forget to switch accounts? You're the same dude that literally spends 90% of your post boosting Pip.


Forgot to switch accounts babyboi?

MeltDog

[97 bulls]

Did you forget to switch accounts? You're the same dude that literally spends 90% of your post boosting Pip.

I only do that because 95% of the post I am responding to are bashing Pippen. I'm a Bulls fan first.

[tpols]

MJ organically grew that team since the 80s and left them after a 3peat with championship confidence. In the playoffs they got spanked in the 2nd round with Ewing vastly out playing Pippen.

Lebron OTOH leaves his teams after devastating losses '09 & '10 upsets, '14 biggest Finals ass whooping ever, '18 2nd biggest Finals ass whooping ever. So he leaves them as losers in shambles hopping off the boat first as the captain (disgraceful)
Jordan pilots his boat to the destination and lets everybody off clean.

[Bawkish]

the 1993 season was supposed to be another 60+ win season if MJ & Pip did not participate in the Olympics. They literally went without a break and was fatigue the whole season, then settled just enough to get a playoff berth

[And1AllDay]

MJ organically grew that team since the 80s and left them after a 3peat with championship confidence. In the playoffs they got spanked in the 2nd round with Ewing vastly out playing Pippen.

Lebron OTOH leaves his teams after devastating losses '09 & '10 upsets, '14 biggest Finals ass whooping ever, '18 2nd biggest Finals ass whooping ever. So he leaves them as losers in shambles hopping off the boat first as the captain (disgraceful)
Jordan pilots his boat to the destination and lets everybody off clean.

*pippen grew that team

mike was busy fuxxing it up until pippen came around :oldlol:

[kawhileonard2]

MJ organically grew that team since the 80s and left them after a 3peat with championship confidence. In the playoffs they got spanked in the 2nd round with Ewing vastly out playing Pippen.

Lebron OTOH leaves his teams after devastating losses '09 & '10 upsets, '14 biggest Finals ass whooping ever, '18 2nd biggest Finals ass whooping ever. So he leaves them as losers in shambles hopping off the boat first as the captain (disgraceful)
Jordan pilots his boat to the destination and lets everybody off clean.
This

[paksat]

16 ppg

32% on 3 pointers

70% free throw shooter

doesn't even average 1 block per game for being the "greatest" defensive player in history

but carry on

[Axe]

MJ organically grew that team since the 80s and left them after a 3peat with championship confidence. In the playoffs they got spanked in the 2nd round with Ewing vastly out playing Pippen.

Lebron OTOH leaves his teams after devastating losses '09 & '10 upsets, '14 biggest Finals ass whooping ever, '18 2nd biggest Finals ass whooping ever. So he leaves them as losers in shambles hopping off the boat first as the captain (disgraceful)
Jordan pilots his boat to the destination and lets everybody off clean.
Just like curry without klay, baldan couldn't win anything without pippen by his side.

[2much_knowledge]

cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the bulls won 57 games with mj, pippen, and grant and won the championship.

in 1994 the bulls won 55 games with pete myers, pippen, and grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"with no drop-off in sight..." i would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when mj left is a huge drop off. But then again, the lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round with mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of mj. Carry on.

d e s t r o y e d
m u r d e r e d

[Spurs m8]

Cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant and won the championship.

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"With no drop-off in sight..." I would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when MJ left is a huge drop off. But then again, the Lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round WITH Mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the Bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of MJ. Carry on.

Wow bro...

One of the biggest ethers I've seen on here hahahahah

Someone put shooter in a body bag....he is deceased.

[000]

2018 lakers = 35 wins
2019 lakers = 37 wins

Good job bron simps

[000]

MJ organically grew that team since the 80s and left them after a 3peat with championship confidence. In the playoffs they got spanked in the 2nd round with Ewing vastly out playing Pippen.

Lebron OTOH leaves his teams after devastating losses '09 & '10 upsets, '14 biggest Finals ass whooping ever, '18 2nd biggest Finals ass whooping ever. So he leaves them as losers in shambles hopping off the boat first as the captain (disgraceful)
Jordan pilots his boat to the destination and lets everybody off clean.
The devastating upsets were preceded by two straight 35% fg playoff eliminations and followed by the worst meltdown in nba history. Not to mention the quitjob + collusion

[Spurs m8]

2018 lakers = 35 wins
2019 lakers = 37 wins

Good job bron simps

Holy shit hahahahhhha

[000]

Holy shit hahahahhhha
The bulls went from a threepeat dynasty, to a 2nd round loss, and then back to a threepeat dynasty

The lakers went from a lottery team to... a lottery team. LOL

[Spurs m8]

The bulls went from a threepeat dynasty, to a 2nd round loss, and then back to a threepeat dynasty

The lakers went from a lottery team to... a lottery team. LOL

Yep.

That is literal GOAT impact.

Just beyond amazing

[ImKobe]

They replaced MJ with the European Jordan in Kukoc, who won them a bunch of close games. They also added Kerr.

[Spurs m8]

They replaced MJ with the European Jordan in Kukoc, who won them a bunch of close games. They also added Kerr.

Exactly....

[ImKobe]

Exactly....


Regarding Phil calling the final shot of Game 3 in the '94 Knicks-Bulls series for Toni Kukoc rather than Scottie Pippen, there was some precedent. The Bulls had 11 possible game-winning shots in 1993-94. They made seven, of which Kukoc had three.

and


Bulls game-winning attempts in 1993-94:

Kukoc 3-4
Grant: 2-2 (both tip-ins)
B.J.: 1-2
Kerr: 1-1
Pippen: 0-2

Pippen, though, had three clutch shots in the 25-55 seconds remaining range that led to wins. And his GW attempts were basically scrambles. But there it is.

[RogueBorg]

the 1993 season was supposed to be another 60+ win season if MJ & Pip did not participate in the Olympics. They literally went without a break and was fatigue the whole season, then settled just enough to get a playoff berth

The Bulls expected win total was 58

W Pyth - Pythagorean Wins; the formula is G * (Tm PTS14 / (Tm PTS14 + Opp PTS14)). The formula was obtained by fitting a logistic regression model with log(Tm PTS / Opp PTS) as the explanatory variable. Using this formula for all BAA, NBA, and ABA seasons, the root mean-square error (rmse) is 3.14 wins. Using an exponent of 16.5 (a common choice), the rmse is 3.48 wins.

[ELITEpower23]

2018 lakers = 35 wins
2019 lakers = 37 wins

Good job bron simps

You know LeBron missed 27 games in 2019 due to injury, right? Essentially 2019 Lakers LeBron won more games than the 2018 Lakers despite playing fewer games. He also won more games than 2019 Davis Pelicans. You aren't very bright chico. You make this easy, almost as if you're pro LeBron.

[000]

You know LeBron missed 27 games in 2019 due to injury, right? Essentially 2019 Lakers LeBron won more games than the 2018 Lakers despite playing fewer games. He also won more games than 2019 Davis Pelicans. You aren't very bright chico. You make this easy, almost as if you're pro LeBron.
Are you retarded? The Lebron lakers went .500 for the whole season*, and when he came back they went 5-16 to miss the playoffs. The lebronless lakers went 6-11 or arguably 7-11 if you count his injury game where kuzma was leading scorer.
The 2018 lakers sustained injuries to ingram and ball too

And who cares if they won more than the davis pelicans:facepalm:facepalm:facepalm


*under .500 if you exclude the meaningless Ws after they lost to the nets

[000]

You know LeBron missed 27 games in 2019 due to injury, right? Essentially 2019 Lakers LeBron won more games than the 2018 Lakers despite playing fewer games. He also won more games than 2019 Davis Pelicans. You aren't very bright chico. You make this easy, almost as if you're pro LeBron.
Now get to work making all kinds of ridiculous excuses for your hero while forgetting context with everyone else. Chop chop!

[ELITEpower23]

Are you retarded? The Lebron lakers went .500 for the whole season*, and when he came back they went 5-16 to miss the playoffs. The lebronless lakers went 6-11 or arguably 7-11 if you count his injury game where kuzma was leading scorer.
The 2018 lakers sustained injuries to ingram and ball too

And who cares if they won more than the davis pelicans:facepalm:facepalm:facepalm


*under .500 if you exclude the meaningless Ws after they lost to the nets

You know LeBron missed 27 games in 2019 due to injury, right? Essentially 2019 Lakers LeBron won more games than the 2018 Lakers despite playing 27 fewer games. He also won more games than 2019 Davis Pelicans. You aren't very bright chico. You make this easy, almost as if you're pro LeBron.

[000]

You know LeBron missed 27 games in 2019 due to injury, right? Essentially 2019 Lakers LeBron won more games than the 2018 Lakers despite playing 27 fewer games. He also won more games than 2019 Davis Pelicans. You aren't very bright chico. You make this easy, almost as if you're pro LeBron.
The 2018 lakers won 35 despite ball & ingram missing 20-30 games
The 2019 lakers played at a 40-win pace with Legoat
The 2019 8th seed clippers had 48 wins. In other words Legoat took a lottery team to the lottery:eek:

Btw the lakers had a better winrate when Lebron was out than when he came back. Maybe he shouldve sat the season out

[SATAN]

Why are people responding to 000? He clearly doesn't know anything about basketball.

[ELITEpower23]

Why are people responding to 000? He clearly doesn't know anything about basketball.

You're right. My bad. It's low hanging fruit but I still feel ashamed of it. I'll stop bullying him.

[SATAN]

You're right. My bad. It's low hanging fruit but I still feel ashamed of it. I'll stop bullying him.

You really kicked his ass itt tbh. Really made a fool out of him. :applause:

[RogueBorg]

Are you retarded? The Lebron lakers went .500 for the whole season*, and when he came back they went 5-16 to miss the playoffs. The lebronless lakers went 6-11 or arguably 7-11 if you count his injury game where kuzma was leading scorer.
The 2018 lakers sustained injuries to ingram and ball too

And who cares if they won more than the davis pelicans:facepalm:facepalm:facepalm


*under .500 if you exclude the meaningless Ws after they lost to the nets

Playoff mode activated.

[000]

Why are people responding to 000? He clearly doesn't know anything about basketball.


You're right. My bad. It's low hanging fruit but I still feel ashamed of it. I'll stop bullying him.


You really kicked his ass itt tbh. Really made a fool out of him. :applause:
Lebron took a lottery team to the lottery. Mike took a .500 team* to a threepeat.

Now keep deflecting losers

*1995 bulls

[SATAN]

Just activated this alt again

We know.

[000]

We know.


Lebron took a lottery team to the lottery. Mike took a .500 team* to a threepeat.

Now keep deflecting losers

*1995 bulls
:rolleyes:

[RogueBorg]

Why are people responding to 000? He clearly doesn't know anything about basketball.

He wasn't wrong, nice red herring.

This is to help you
What is the definition of a red herring?
noun. a smoked herring. something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue. Also called red-herring prospectus.

[SATAN]

Forgot the passwords to my other accounts

Interesting.

[ELITEpower23]

We know.

Good one.

[TheMan]

You really kicked his ass itt tbh. Really made a fool out of him. :applause:

Alts supporting other alts, typical day at ISH :lol

[3ba11]

.

1994 Pippen 22/8/6 = 55 wins

1998 Jordan 35/6/6/DPOY = 50 wins


The 94' Bulls won more games despite less talent because they had a goat strategy/brand of ball (3-peat system), while the 88' Bulls won off sheer talent (no strategy/brand of ball)

[ELITEpower23]

Alts supporting other alts, typical day at ISH :lol

I have no alts, thanks. However, there is another account that says "TheMan93" or something close to that

[000]

.

1994 Pippen 22/8/6 = 55 wins

1998 Jordan 35/6/6/DPOY = 50 wins


The 94' Bulls won more games despite less talent because they had a goat strategy/brand of ball (3-peat system), while the 88' Bulls won off sheer talent (no strategy/brand of ball)
Its just a troll thread. The Lebroom simps arent here to listen.

[TheMan]

I have no alts, thanks. However, there is another account that says "TheMan93" or something close to that

Yep, seen it, I don't have any alts, anyone of the powers that be here can easily do an IP check and ban me permanently if I'm lying..but there are a lot of posters who have alts, Simon being the most prominent

[000]

Btw, the 2018 lakers had a better* SRS, better NetRtg, and better Ortg than the 2019 lakers, though the difference was very small. So did the 2019 pelicans btw.

*higher-ranked, which is what matters

[97 bulls]

.

1994 Pippen 22/8/6 = 55 wins

1998 Jordan 35/6/6/DPOY = 50 wins


The 94' Bulls won more games despite less talent because they had a goat strategy/brand of ball (3-peat system), while the 88' Bulls won off sheer talent (no strategy/brand of ball)

And that's why they were so dominant. Theres many ways to win. Pippen didnt want to go out and try to outscore the opposition on his own. He knew hed get better results playing team oriented ball. That's why he was more successful than Jordan was in 88.

[3ba11]

And that's why they were so dominant. Theres many ways to win. Pippen didnt want to go out and try to outscore the opposition on his own. He knew hed get better results playing team oriented ball. That's why he was more successful than Jordan was in 88.


Pippen's wasn't capable of more than 22 ppg because the 95' Bulls were bad and he still only got 22 ppg - they were a .500 ballclub before Jordan returned and carried them to 13-4 and another 3-peat in his first full seasons back

He also averaged 21.7 on 40% against Ewing in the 2nd Round, where he choked many times and replay shows that he literally HACKED hubert on that three (the media literally lies about it):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495117-Let-s-review-Pippen-s-3rd-biggest-choke-of-career-the-foul-on-Hubert-Davis-(gif)

[And1AllDay]

And that's why they were so dominant. Theres many ways to win. Pippen didnt want to go out and try to outscore the opposition on his own. He knew hed get better results playing team oriented ball. That's why he was more successful than Jordan was in 88.

banger

[3ba11]

And that's why they were so dominant. Theres many ways to win. Pippen didnt want to go out and try to outscore the opposition on his own. He knew hed get better results playing team oriented ball. That's why he was more successful than Jordan was in 88.


The Bulls 3-peated from 91-93' because Jordan averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - so he passed and assisted far more than Pippen, including 33% more often in the playoffs.

So your passing/brand argument is false.

And why didn't Pippen average more than 22 when the Bulls were bad in 1995 and teetering on the edge of the playoffs?... It's because 22 ppg was Pippen's peak... that's why...

The 95' Bulls were a .500 ballclub before MJ carried them to 13-4 and another 3-peat in his first full seasons back..

[And1AllDay]

mj would be flipping big macs at mcdonalds if it wasn't for pippen and his leadership once he got to the bulls


jordan was fine he just wasnt a winner until pip got there.

pipe'n made him a man

[dankok8]

This argument made by the OP really has to be buried because it's a very stupid one. It's comparing the Bulls' worst season with Jordan to their best stretch without him. Let's look at the bigger picture.

Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls with Jordan were 400-103 (0.80 W% or 65-win pace) in the regular season and won six championships with one second round loss and never ever lost more than two consecutive games. Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls without Jordan were 90-63 (0.59 W% or 48-win pace) with one second round loss.

Elevating a 48-win team that loses in the second round to a 65-win team that wins six titles in seven seasons is not impressive? :facepalm

[3ba11]

This argument made by the OP really has to be buried because it's a very stupid one. It's comparing the Bulls' worst season with Jordan to their best stretch without him. Let's look at the bigger picture.

Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls with Jordan were 400-103 (0.80 W% or 65-win pace) in the regular season and won six championships with one second round loss and never ever lost more than two consecutive games. Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls without Jordan were 90-63 (0.59 W% or 48-win pace) with one second round loss.

Elevating a 48-win team that loses in the second round to a 65-win team that wins six titles in seven seasons is not impressive? :facepalm


Extremely impressive.

The 95' Bulls were a .500 ballclub before MJ carried them to 13-4 and another 3-peat in his first full seasons back..

Of course, rookie Jordan couldn't do that - maybe 88' Jordan could've done it, but the prime Jordan that knew how to 3-peat made the 2nd one look kind of easy.

However, his biggest carry-jobs are getting a 3 seed and making the 2nd Round with an 8 ppg rookie (his 88' cast was far worse cast than Curry's cast this year), and then taking them to the ECF in 89' with a low seed.

[97 bulls]

This argument made by the OP really has to be buried because it's a very stupid one. It's comparing the Bulls' worst season with Jordan to their best stretch without him. Let's look at the bigger picture.

Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls with Jordan were 400-103 (0.80 W% or 65-win pace) in the regular season and won six championships with one second round loss and never ever lost more than two consecutive games. Over the entire 91-98 span, the Bulls without Jordan were 90-63 (0.59 W% or 48-win pace) with one second round loss.

Elevating a 48-win team that loses in the second round to a 65-win team that wins six titles in seven seasons is not impressive? :facepalm

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.

[RogueBorg]

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.

I was there, I watched all those years, Cartwright was a old and a scrub during the championship years. I'll agree about Pippen and Grant growing into their roles, not Cartwright.

[3ba11]

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.


You said previously that you abide by Cowherd so what do you think about Cowherd calling Pippen a defensive role player and not the kind of player that any coach would run plays for:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=04m37s

[MadDog]

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.

You missed his point. That guy wasn't propping up Jordan to diminish Pippen. He was excoriating the OP's notion, which slanders Jordan but gives FULL CREDIT to 94 Pippen. Jordan was more important to the Bulls than Pippen was. After all, he was their best player. Obviously Jordan isn't winning without Pippen. Who wins, consistently, without a sidekick? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

.
Ben Simmons.... 16/8/8... 19.8 PER... 0.154 WS/48... 3.7 BPM
Scottie Pippen... 16/6/5... 18.6 PER... 0.146 WS/48... 4.1 BPM

[3ba11]

Who wins, consistently, without a sidekick? :confusedshrug:





no one.

but not all sidekicks are the same.

everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half of their rings, while Jordan led his sidekick in every SERIES by an margin of 10-30 ppg

so it's night and day - Jordan carried a Ben Simmons-like defensive role player in every series, while everyone else enjoyed equal-scoring partners for entire playoff runs for at least half their rings... (see stats for Simmons/Pippen in previous post)

[And1AllDay]

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.

bingo

issa wrap

[MadDog]

no one.

but not all sidekicks are the same.

everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half of their rings, while Jordan led his sidekick in every SERIES by an margin of 10-30 ppg

so it's night and day - Jordan carried a Ben Simmons-like defensive role player as his sidekick in every series, while everyone else enjoyed 1b's (equal-scoring partners) for at least half their rings... (see stats for Simmons/Pippen in previous post)

Not a bad comparison, however Pippen was a better shooter than Simmons. Better half-court player too, because he could post you up. What do you think Simmons averages in the 90s? And what does Prime Pippen average now?


bingo

issa wrap

I already cleared that up. Go ahead and +1 me, dilbert.

[And1AllDay]

Not a bad comparison, however Pippen was a better shooter than Simmons. Better half-court player too, because he could post you up. What do you think Simmons averages in the 90s? And what does Prime Pippen average now?



I already cleared that up. Go ahead and +1 me, dilbert.

meltdog...

[3ba11]

Not a bad comparison, however Pippen was a better shooter than Simmons. Better half-court player too, because he could post you up. What do you think Simmons averages in the 90s? And what does Prime Pippen average now?



I already cleared that up. Go ahead and +1 me, dilbert.


Simmons actually destroys Pippen on the post/around the rim - it's the only part of the floor where Simmons has any touch and is a pure scorer in that area.. Pippen never had any touch from anywhere on the floor

Simmons would be a SF/PF in prior eras and a decent one

[MadDog]

Simmons actually destroys Pippen on the post/around the rim - it's the only part of the floor where Simmons has any touch and is a pure scorer in that area.. Pippen never had any touch from anywhere on the floor

Simmons would be a SF/PF in prior eras and a decent one

In the playoffs, Ben averaged less than 1 point on post-ups. If that's your definition of "pure scoring" you have low standards.

What does Pippen average in this era? Post the numbers.

[3ba11]

In the playoffs, Ben averaged less than 1 point on post-ups. If that's your definition of "pure scoring" you have low standards.

What does Pippen average in this era? Post the numbers.


In today's game, star perimeter players require breakdown ability off-the-dribble like Booker, PG, Harden, etc .. players with a simple handle like Pippen are more like Jeff Green, Shawn Marion, Iggy-type role players than the aforementioned star creators.

So Pippen could average what Iggy averaged.. Or peak Jeff Green... Or Marion... Something like that... Basic.stuff... Nothing that the fancy players do... basically the same numbers he averaged in the 90's.. maybe less because the non-shooter and non-iso guys suffer the most today.

[And1AllDay]

:wtf:

how are you having a convo with yourself...

:wtf::wtf:

how do you do it??

[MadDog]

In today's game, star perimeter players require breakdown ability off-the-dribble like Booker, PG, Harden, etc .. players with a simple handle like Pippen are more like Jeff Green, Shawn Marion, Iggy-type role players than the aforementioned star creators.

So Pippen could average what Iggy averaged.. Or peak Jeff Green... Or Marion... Something like that... Basic.stuff... Nothing that the fancy players do... basically the same numbers he averaged in the 90's.. maybe less because the non-shooter and non-iso guys suffer the most today.

Prime Pippen averaged 20 points in the 90s, which was a tougher defensive era. Weak shooters like LeBron put up 30 point seasons. Now. In today's era. Not saying Pippen is LeBron, but to think Pippen's numbers don't get boosted is unrealistic.


:wtf:

how are you having a convo with yourself...

:wtf::wtf:

how do you do it??

You sound like a mental patient. For the nth time, we aren't the same poster. How many times does this need to be repeated? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Prime Pippen averaged 20 points in the 90s, which was a tougher defensive era. Weak shooters like LeBron put up 30 point seasons. Now. In today's era. Not saying Pippen is LeBron, but to think Pippen's numbers don't get boosted is unrealistic.



You sound like a mental patient. For the nth time, we aren't the same poster. How many times does this need to be repeated? :confusedshrug:


Lebron's handle is far superior to Pippen - Lebron is like a PG or Harden with a legit break-down handle.

Pippen lacks this and players with a simple handle like Pippen are more like Jeff Green, Shawn Marion, Iggy-type role players than the aforementioned star creators.

So Pippen could average what Iggy averaged.. Or peak Jeff Green... Or Marion... Something like that... Basic.stuff... Nothing that the fancy players do... basically the same numbers he averaged in the 90's.. maybe less because the non-shooter and non-iso guys suffer the most today...

"flow" scorers like pippen are role players are always have been tbh... the definition of defensive role player is a player with spotty scoring that plays good defense (pippen, iggy, etc)

[97 bulls]

In today's game, star perimeter players require breakdown ability off-the-dribble like Booker, PG, Harden, etc .. players with a simple handle like Pippen are more like Jeff Green, Shawn Marion, Iggy-type role players than the aforementioned star creators.

So Pippen could average what Iggy averaged.. Or peak Jeff Green... Or Marion... Something like that... Basic.stuff... Nothing that the fancy players do... basically the same numbers he averaged in the 90's.. maybe less because the non-shooter and non-iso guys suffer the most today.

Giannis Antekoupmpo is a functional ball handler and he scores 28-30ppg.

[3ba11]

Giannis Antekoupmpo is a functional ball handler and he scores 28-30ppg.


Giannis is a far superior physical talent - he's like Shaq but actually dunks more (dunk record)

[red1]

3ball why were pippen's bulls able to play the knicks so well without jordan?

[MadDog]

Lebron's handle is far superior to Pippen - Lebron is like a PG or Harden with a legit break-down handle.

Pippen lacks this and players with a simple handle like Pippen are more like Jeff Green, Shawn Marion, Iggy-type role players than the aforementioned star creators.

So Pippen could average what Iggy averaged.. Or peak Jeff Green... Or Marion... Something like that... Basic.stuff... Nothing that the fancy players do... basically the same numbers he averaged in the 90's.. maybe less because the non-shooter and non-iso guys suffer the most today...

"flow" scorers like pippen are role players are always have been tbh... the definition of defensive role player is a player with spotty scoring that plays good defense (pippen, iggy, etc)

Pippen was better in the post than LeBron. From 10-16 feet, Pippen was also a better shooter. Heck from 16 feet-just inside the 3, Pippen was better. His handle wasn't bad and today it would be more fluid. The rules allow carrying and palming.

[3ba11]

Pippen was better in the post than LeBron. From 10-16 feet, Pippen was also a better shooter. Heck from 16 feet-just inside the 3, Pippen was better. His handle wasn't bad and today it would be more fluid. The rules allow carrying and palming.


Lebron was basically Pippen in the 2011 Finals (18/7/6 and no clutch), yet prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with Pippen... That's how bad he was... When your 2nd option frequently scores like a defensive role player and is literally non-existent in the clutch (zero production) - you can't win, or you need to be clutch Jordan to win

[red1]

why are you always dancing around the madonna question, huh 3ball?


https://gifdownload.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/michael-jordan-gif-laughing-1.gif
https://gifdownload.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/michael-jordan-gif-laughing-1.gif
https://gifdownload.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/michael-jordan-gif-laughing-1.gif

[MadDog]

Lebron was basically Pippen in the 2011 Finals (18/7/6 and no clutch), yet prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with Pippen... That's how bad he was... When your 2nd option frequently scores like a defensive role player and is literally non-existent in the clutch (zero production) - you can't win, or you need to be clutch Jordan to win

Maybe in numbers, but LeBron got cooked on defense. When did Pippen ever let a JJ Barea equivalent light his ass up? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

Maybe in numbers, but LeBron got cooked on defense. When did Pippen ever let a JJ Barea equivalent light his ass up? :confusedshrug:


Pippen never held anyone below their regular season average in a playoff series, and has zero signature series where he locked anyone down as the primary defender.

Everyone got theirs on Pippen.. Jerome Kersey exceeded his regular season numbers in the 1992 Finals... Ditto Worthy, Dumas, and Schrempf..

The reality is that the Jazz defended Pippen with Hornacek and put the SF Russell on Jordan - so Pippen had this massive mismatch for most of the series, but the series were still super-close because Pippen couldn't take advantage.. And he was last in clutch points behind guys like Ostertag.. All the evidence shows that Pippen was a defensive role player that was forced into a 2nd option role and carried by MJ

[And1AllDay]

:wtf:

how are you having a convo with yourself...

:wtf:

how/why do you do it??

[MadDog]

Pippen never held anyone below their regular season average in a playoff series, and has zero signature series where he locked anyone down as the primary defender.

Everyone got theirs on Pippen.. Jerome Kersey exceeded his regular season numbers in the 1992 Finals... Ditto Worthy, Dumas, and Schrempf..


That isn't true. Pippen held Dominque to the same points in 93, but on a significant lower shooting percentage. 43%FG. Pippen held Mason to 13 points on a lower shooting percentage - numbers WAY below his regular-season average. Pippen held Mashburn to 3 points under his regular-season average on like 39% shooting. Pippen also held Chris Mullin 5 points below his average, and on a low shooting clip.

So hyperbole aside, name another player akin to JJ Barea, who lit up Pippen.

[3ba11]

That isn't true. Pippen held Dominque to the same points in 93, but on a significant lower shooting percentage. 43%FG. Pippen held Mason to 13 points on a lower shooting percentage - numbers WAY below his regular-season average. Pippen held Mashburn to 3 points under his regular-season average on like 39% shooting. Pippen also held Chris Mullin 5 points below his average, and on a low shooting clip.

So hyperbole aside, name another player akin to JJ Barea, who lit up Pippen.


Pippen shot 33% against Dominique, but you're praising Pippen for holding Dominique to 43% with literally twice the ppg?

this CONFIRMS that you're just biased for Pippen and think the sky is pink.

And you just gave Pippen props for guarding a fossil Chris Mullin when he didn't even guard Chris Mullin - Pippen guarded Mark Jackson in the 98' ECF, and Mark got his normal numbers against him.

Again, everyone lit up Pippen and got their normal numbers on him.. He has no series where anyone can point to and say "remember when he locked X player down"... it never happened..

So far, your weak or false examples can't match many examples where guys are destroying Pippen.. keep looking though lol..

[MadDog]

Pippen shot 33% against Dominique, but you're praising Pippen for holding Dominique to 43% with literally twice the ppg?

this CONFIRMS that you're just biased for Pippen and think the sky is pink.

And you just gave Pippen props for guarding a fossil Chris Mullin when he didn't even guard Chris Mullin - Pippen guarded Mark Jackson in the 98' ECF, and Mark got his normal numbers against him.

Again, everyone lit up Pippen and got their normal numbers on him.. He has no series where anyone can point to and say "remember when he locked X player down"... it never happened..

Your weak or false examples can't match many examples where guys are destroying Pippen..

Defense was brought up, so what does Pippen's shooting gotta do with anything? You also claimed Pippen "never" held anyone below their regular-season clip. I just posted a number of examples where Pippen either held a player below their regular-season average, or to a low shooting percentage.

Pippen guarded Mark Jackson AND Chris Mullin. Just like Pippen guarded Magic AND Worthy. The footage is out there, and plain to see. Watch the games and quit stat watching.

[3ba11]

Defense was brought up, so what does Pippen's shooting gotta do with anything? You also claimed Pippen "never" held anyone below their regular-season clip. I just listed a few examples of players Pippen either held below their regular-season numbers, or to a low shooting percentage.

Pippen guarded Mark Jackson AND Chris Mullin. Just like Pippen guarded Magic AND Worthy. The footage is out there, and plain to see. Watch the games and quit stat watching.


He never held anyone below their regular numbers - you didn't provide examples.

There's only examples of everyone getting their regular numbers on him.. praising his defense of Chris Mullin makes my point - he never locked anyone meaningful down.

And Jordan was the primary defender on Magic - Magic isn't normally guarded by SG's - Jordan was doing Pippen's job for him.. Pippen only got spot duty because he's a far weaker defender - and this is what everyone thought at the time... I'll post the quotes from the game and many other quotes that show pippen wasn't regarded as the best defender on the bulls - that's your lies after the fact - revisionist history.. and jordan finished higher in DPOY every year/. there's no evidence that pippen was even a good defender except quotes from people who use defense because they can't compliment his offense.

[MadDog]

He never held anyone below their regular numbers - you didn't provide examples.

There's only examples of everyone getting their regular numbers on him.. praising his defense of Chris Mullin makes my point - he never locked anyone meaningful down..

But, I listed a number of examples. :confusedshrug: Mason, Mullin and Mashburn were all great players at the time. And Pippen held them in check. Try again.

[MadDog]

Pippen only got spot duty

So you admit Pippen guarded BOTH Magic and Worthy. Cool. Hold that W up for me. Nice and high, boy.

[dankok8]

But this is a logical fallacy. What you're doing is giving all credit to Jordan. When the fact is the teams as a whole was better. That's why you get the 1-9 argument thrown around so much.

You guys need to stop overrating Michael Jordan. He was nowhere close to winning until Pippen grew into his role. Along with Grant and Cartwright etc. It was by no means all MJ.

How am I giving all the credit to Jordan? The thread was about dissing Jordan so I'm addressing how much he elevated the team.

I would never say that Jordan won without help. He had GOOD help. I don't see how saying that Jordan elevated the Bulls from a 48-win team to a 65-win team and a dominant dynasty is disrespecting his teammates.

[3ba11]

.
93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

[3ba11]

But, I listed a number of examples. :confusedshrug: Mason, Mullin and Mashburn were all great players at the time. And Pippen held them in check. Try again.


He was destroyed far more than the weak examples you gave, which were standard defense that anyone does and doesn't make up for his weak scoring - a weak scorer that plays defense is a defensive role player

And Mashburn famously dropped 50 on Pippen - no one killed Pippen more than Mash... Pippen was destroyed by Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Dominique, Richard Dumas, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Barkley, Grant Hill, Penny - you name it - literally everyone had a field day on Pippen.. but his association with MJ and winning inflated him.

[MadDog]

He was destroyed far more than the weak examples you gave, which were standard defense that anyone does and doesn't make up for his weak scoring - a weak scorer that plays defense is a defensive role player

And Mashburn famously dropped 50 on Pippen - no one killed Pippen more than Mash... Pippen was destroyed by Juwan Howard, Larry Johnson, Dominique, Richard Dumas, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Barkley, Grant Hill, Penny - you name it - literally everyone had a field day on Pippen.. but his association with MJ and winning inflated him.

Mason and Mashburn were all-star talent. So if those examples are "weak" then your standards are absurd. Mashburn "scoring 50" on Pippen is irrelevant. That's the regular-season which doesn't negate Pippen shutting him down in the playoffs. Again, he was held to lower points and inefficient shooting. By Pippen. All that goes against your original claim. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

That isn't true. Pippen held Dominque to the same points in 93, but on a significant lower shooting percentage. 43%FG. Pippen held Mason to 13 points on a lower shooting percentage - numbers WAY below his regular-season average. Pippen held Mashburn to 3 points under his regular-season average on like 39% shooting. Pippen also held Chris Mullin 5 points below his average, and on a low shooting clip.

So hyperbole aside, name another player akin to JJ Barea, who lit up Pippen.

Pippen made Penny shoot 40, 33, and 43 percent in 3 of the 4 Bulls wins in 96. Hard way shot 71% in game 1 but the Bulls won that game by 38 points.

[MadDog]

Pippen made Penny shoot 40, 33, and 43 percent in 3 of the 4 Bulls wins in 96. Hard way shot 71% in game 1 but the Bulls won that game by 38 points.

That can't be true. Pippen "never" held anyone below their average lol. I'm no Pippen fan, but you can tell who watched that team, and whose stat watching.

[3ba11]

Mason and Mashburn were all-star talent. So if those examples are "weak" then your standards are absurd. Mashburn "scoring 50" on Pippen is irrelevant. That's the regular-season which doesn't negate Pippen shutting him down in the playoffs. Again, he was held to lower points and inefficient shooting. By Pippen. All that goes against your original claim. :confusedshrug:


Did you lie about Mashburn?

97' Mashburn averaged 13 ppg on 42% in the playoffs against Pippen, and 13 on 39% in the regular season..

In addition to letting Mashburn exceed his regular numbers, Pippen was flat-out destroyed by Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Kemp, Barkley, Kevin Willis, Dominique, Richard Dumas, Detlef Schrempf, Penny, Grant Hill, Jerome Kersey, James Worthy, and many more.

He's the most overrated player in NBA history because he was a weak scorer and everyone got theirs on him

[MadDog]

Did you lie about Mashburn?

97' Mashburn averaged 13 ppg on 42% in the playoffs against Pippen, and 13 on 39% in the regular season..

In addition to letting Mashburn exceed his regular numbers, Pippen was flat-out destroyed by Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Kemp, Barkley, Kevin Willis, Dominique, Richard Dumas, Detlef Schrempf, Penny, Grant Hill, Jerome Kersey, James Worthy, and many more.

He's the most overrated player in NBA history because he was a weak scorer and everyone got theirs on him

Miami Mashburn still scored less than he did in the regular-season. 13.4 > 12.8. Regardless, Mash was a GOOD scorer the year before and years after 97. Holding him to 12.8 points on 41% is a win for Pippen. And what about Mason? Mullin? Penny? Or Dominque shooting way less efficient?

Again, I have no problem saying Pippen was an overrated defender. But YOU said Pippen never held anyone below their average. That's a bold faced lie.

[3ba11]

Miami Mashburn still scored less in the playoffs than he did in the regular-season. 13.4 > 12.8. Regardless, Mash was a GOOD scorer the year before and years after 97. Holding him to 12.8 points on 41% is a win for Pippen. And what about Mason? Mullin? Penny? Or Dominque shooting way less efficient?

Again, I have no problem saying Pippen was an overrated defender. But YOU said Pippen never held anyone below their average. That's a bold face lie.


I just think it's funny that when I make a statement like that (basically making the point that Pippen was an overrated defender) and you counter with the 13.4 to 12.8 example for a washed-up Mashburn (and a couple others for role players like mason, etc)

The exception kind of proves the rule, don't you think?.. I don't think your example overruled the point being made, and therefore was a poor counter imo... a better counter would've been to find someone really notable that he locked down.. but he never actually guarded drexler, miller or magic as the primary defender, so there aren't as many opportunities as one might think.

[MadDog]

I just think it's funny that when I make a statement like that (basically making the point that Pippen was an overrated defender) and you counter with the 13.4 to 12.8 example for a washed-up Mashburn (and a couple others for role players like mason, etc)

The exception kind of proves the rule, don't you think?.. I don't think your example overruled the point being made, and therefore was a poor counter imo

That's ridiculous. Jamal was in his 4th year, how could he be washed? :oldlol: Dude was an all-star in the 2000s not the 90s. Far as my examples being the "exception" those were just a few. I could look up more, but why waste my time? We both know Pippen's got more under his belt.

Pippen's defense gets overrated, because he wasn't a bigman impacting that end. Thing is you used "never" in your claim. And then when I post a handful of names to counter you, you play it off as sarcasm. lol. If you said something like "barely" or "a few", I wouldn't have corrected you.

[BigShotBob]

Where is their 55 game ring?

[Soundwave]

Bulls were bored of the regular season and just wanted to 3-peat. Pippen and Grant had mediocre regular seasons as well.

Regular season records don't mean shit.

Lakers won 63 games in 89-90 season with no Kareem and a rookie Divac, that's better than several years with Kareem in the 80s. So Divac is Kareem level?

Warriors won more regular season games in 15-16 with no Durant, does that mean Durant makes no difference? LeBron's Cavs couldn't compete with the Durant version of the Warriors at all, got spanked 1 win to 8 losses in two Finals against the Durant Warriors.

2001 Lakers with Shaq-Kobe only won 56 games, 07-08 Lakers with Kobe-Gasol won 57 games, so Gasol is better than Shaq?

Teams get bored of the regular season especially repeat champions.

[Airupthere]

Bulls were bored of the regular season and just wanted to 3-peat. Pippen and Grant had mediocre regular seasons as well.

Regular season records don't mean shit.

Lakers won 63 games in 89-90 season with no Kareem and a rookie Divac, that's better than several years with Kareem in the 80s. So Divac is Kareem level?

Warriors won more regular season games in 15-16 with no Durant, does that mean Durant makes no difference? LeBron's Cavs couldn't compete with the Durant version of the Warriors at all, got spanked 1 win to 8 losses in two Finals against the Durant Warriors.

2001 Lakers with Shaq-Kobe only won 56 games, 07-08 Lakers with Kobe-Gasol won 57 games, so Gasol is better than Shaq?

Teams get bored of the regular season especially repeat champions.

Boom :applause:

[ELITEpower23]

Pete Myers replaced MJ and they went from 57 to 55 wins :lol

Why?

Anyone?


#BringShooterBack

[BigShotBob]

Bulls were bored of the regular season and just wanted to 3-peat. Pippen and Grant had mediocre regular seasons as well.

Regular season records don't mean shit.

Lakers won 63 games in 89-90 season with no Kareem and a rookie Divac, that's better than several years with Kareem in the 80s. So Divac is Kareem level?

Warriors won more regular season games in 15-16 with no Durant, does that mean Durant makes no difference? LeBron's Cavs couldn't compete with the Durant version of the Warriors at all, got spanked 1 win to 8 losses in two Finals against the Durant Warriors.

2001 Lakers with Shaq-Kobe only won 56 games, 07-08 Lakers with Kobe-Gasol won 57 games, so Gasol is better than Shaq?

Teams get bored of the regular season especially repeat champions.

Anyone?

[Axe]

Because they were a dynasty.

[2much_knowledge]

Bulls were bored of the regular season and just wanted to 3-peat. Pippen and Grant had mediocre regular seasons as well.

Regular season records don't mean shit.

Lakers won 63 games in 89-90 season with no Kareem and a rookie Divac, that's better than several years with Kareem in the 80s. So Divac is Kareem level?

Warriors won more regular season games in 15-16 with no Durant, does that mean Durant makes no difference? LeBron's Cavs couldn't compete with the Durant version of the Warriors at all, got spanked 1 win to 8 losses in two Finals against the Durant Warriors.

2001 Lakers with Shaq-Kobe only won 56 games, 07-08 Lakers with Kobe-Gasol won 57 games, so Gasol is better than Shaq?

Teams get bored of the regular season especially repeat champions.

Its O V E R. There you go. Question has been answered in plain english

[TheGoatest]

Where is their 55 game ring?

Prevented by one of the most bullshit calls in history, which the Bulls regularly got called in their favor with Jordan on their roster:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

[Baller789]

Prevented by one of the most bullshit calls in history, which the Bulls regularly got called in their favor with Jordan on their roster:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

Yes because they sure would have sure beaten the Pacers and the Rockets right?

[TheGoatest]

Yes because they sure would have sure beaten the Pacers and the Rockets right?

Those 1993-94 Knicks (3 all-stars) were the best Knicks team of the 90s, and it took that crap call to bring the Bulls down against them.
They could've beaten anybody if the refs didn't destroy them.

[Baller789]

Those 1993-94 Knicks (3 all-stars) were the best Knicks team of the 90s, and it took that crap call to bring the Bulls down against them.
They could've beaten anybody if the refs didn't destroy them.

And they would for sure would have beaten the Rockets as you where implying right?

https://i.ibb.co/rGSR27t/images-4.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
image upload (https://imgbb.com/)

[Hey Yo]

Cool story bro, let me tell the kiddies the ret of the story for you.

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant and won the championship.

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant lost in the 2nd round and didn't win the championship.

"With no drop-off in sight..." I would say going from the championship to losing in the second round when MJ left is a huge drop off. But then again, the Lakers went from winning the championship to losing in the 1st round WITH Mr. -86.

Jordan comes back and the Bulls 3-peat again. That's the value of MJ. Carry on.

Jordan came back and lost in the 2nd round in 6gms. Worse than what Pippen did the year prior.

[Hey Yo]

Bulls were bored of the regular season and just wanted to 3-peat. Pippen and Grant had mediocre regular seasons as well.

Regular season records don't mean shit.

Lakers won 63 games in 89-90 season with no Kareem and a rookie Divac, that's better than several years with Kareem in the 80s. So Divac is Kareem level?

Warriors won more regular season games in 15-16 with no Durant, does that mean Durant makes no difference? LeBron's Cavs couldn't compete with the Durant version of the Warriors at all, got spanked 1 win to 8 losses in two Finals against the Durant Warriors.

2001 Lakers with Shaq-Kobe only won 56 games, 07-08 Lakers with Kobe-Gasol won 57 games, so Gasol is better than Shaq?

Teams get bored of the regular season especially repeat champions.

Links to prove those teams were bored??

[Baller789]

Jordan came back and lost in the 2nd round in 6gms. Worse than what Pippen did the year prior.

Because they had the exact same teams right?

[Hey Yo]

And how many wins did the Bulls have in the other 5 seasons when they won? 61, 67, 72, 69, 62.

The fact is, that 1992-93 Bulls team did have some fatigue from defending a 2 peat AND playing in the 1992 Olympics. All those additional games and travel took a toll.

Looks like those teams didnt get bored with the regular season. Why is that?

Funny how fatigue can be cited for MJ after only 2 consecutive Finals appearances, but the same can't be done for LeBron during his 8 consecutive Finals runs.

Why is that? What's the difference?

[Baller789]

Jordan came back and lost in the 2nd round in 6gms. Worse than what Pippen did the year prior.


Because they had the exact same teams right?

Hey Brontard, nice move dodging questions :lol

[Hey Yo]

Hey Brontard, nice move dodging questions :lol

Who were the big peices they were missing? MJ had fresh legs after almost 2yrs off.

[TheCorporation]

.CLIFFS

Pippen did far better without MJ than MJ did without Pippen.

Questions?

[Hey Yo]

Hey Brontard, nice move dodging questions :lol

Where'd you go, fakkit? :lol

[2much_knowledge]

.CLIFFS

Pippen did far better without MJ than MJ did without Pippen.

Questions?

Right, in 1988 Jordan did more in that season than Pippen his whole life.

Where was chicago in 1995 before Jordan???

What happened in 99? Lack of team? Lol

[Baller789]

Who were the big peices they were missing? MJ had fresh legs after almost 2yrs off.

Nice move deflecting by answering a question with question. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Nice move deflecting by answering a question with question. :oldlol:

You're the one who brought up the rosters. I asked you which great players were missing in 95'

Well???

[BigShotBob]

Links to prove those teams were bored??

Proof that the KD-Curry Warriors were better than the 73-win team warriors based on the regular season records?

[Hey Yo]

Proof that the KD-Curry Warriors were better than the 73-win team warriors based on the regular season records?

And 2011 proves that any 58 win team is considered a superteam?

[TheCorporation]

..CLIFFS

Pippen did far better without MJ than MJ did without Pippen.

Anyone?

[Baller789]

You're the one who brought up the rosters. I asked you which great players were missing in 95'

Well???

I'll answer your question after you answer mine, since I asked you first.

[Axe]

Proof that the KD-Curry Warriors were better than the 73-win team warriors based on the regular season records?
That team was stacked, regardless if they had kd or not.

[Baller789]

That team was stacked, regardless if they had kd or not.

But they got even more stacked after adding KD right?

[Manny98]

They went from championship to second round exit, regular season records don't mean **** all

[Axe]

But they got even more stacked after adding KD right?
Duh.

[3ba11]

.
Iggy won 57 in 2013 and outplayed Pippen as 1st option against East champs in 2009 (Dwight/Ewing):


Iguodala 2009 Playoffs vs Dwight.... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

Pippen 1994 Playoffs vs Ewing......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)


Pippen was an Iggy-level player that was simply lucky to play alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format (90's) - anyone wins alongisde the goat in that format

[TheCorporation]

.
Iggy won 57 in 2013 and outplayed Pippen as 1st option against East champs in 2009 (Dwight/Ewing):


Iguodala 2009 Playoffs vs Dwight.... 21.5... 6.3... 6.7... 44.9%... lost in 6 (no kukoc miracle)

Pippen 1994 Playoffs vs Ewing......... 21.7... 7.7... 4.7... 40.5%... lost in 7 (kukoc miracle)


Pippen was an Iggy-level player that was simply lucky to play alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format (90's) - anyone wins alongisde the goat in that format

So you mean to tell us that an "Iggy-level" player in the 90s was certified top 10 but wouldn't even be top 30 in the modern era? Tell us more about how weak Jordan's era was :roll:

[BigShotBob]

And 2011 proves that any 58 win team is considered a superteam?

Guess so

[TheCorporation]

In 1993 the Bulls won 57 games with MJ, Pippen, and Grant

In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games with Pete Myers, Pippen, and Grant

With no drop-off in sight it begs the question: Is Pippen that great or is MJ that bad?

Anyone have an answer?

[aceman]

Because basketball is a team sport

[97 bulls]

So you mean to tell us that an "Iggy-level" player in the 90s was certified top 10 but wouldn't even be top 30 in the modern era? Tell us more about how weak Jordan's era was :roll:

Even more, Iggy wasn't even the best scorer and assister on the that Nuggets team that 3ball is talking about. Hell we was TIED FOR 3RD IN SCORING!!!!. So now scoring doesn't matter as much? Andre Iguodala average 13ppg in 2013.

[RogueBorg]

Anyone have an answer?

In the 1993 playoffs, the Bulls with Jordan swept Atlanta in the first round, swept Cleveland in the second round, beat the top seeded Knicks in 6 in the ECF, and then beat the number-one overall seed Suns in 6 for the NBA championship.

In the 1994 playoffs without Jordan, the Bulls LOST to the Knicks in the Eastern semis, didn't even make the ECF.

See the difference?

[HunterSThompson]

the 94 bulls won 11 less games than the 93 bulls actually

people always seem to forget the 9 extra playoff wins he provided Chicago with

[outofstomach]

1-9

he bodied you and the other bronsexuals in this thread with a single post :lol

[Hey Yo]

In the 1993 playoffs, the Bulls with Jordan swept Atlanta in the first round, swept Cleveland in the second round, beat the top seeded Knicks in 6 in the ECF, and then beat the number-one overall seed Suns in 6 for the NBA championship.

In the 1994 playoffs without Jordan, the Bulls LOST to the Knicks in the Eastern semis, didn't even make the ECF.

See the difference?

Jordan's replacement in the starting line-up was a 6th round pick journeyman who played in Italy the prior 2yrs before getting the call.

See the difference?

[Hey Yo]

he bodied you and the other bronsexuals in this thread with a single post :lol

Hey.... look what dropped outofmyass

[Airupthere]

Why compare 57 and 55? That Bulls in 94 could have gone 60+ wins, maybe 70 and a chip, with MJ playing in it.

[3ba11]

Jordan's replacement in the starting line-up was a 6th round pick journeyman who played in Italy the prior 2yrs before getting the call.

See the difference?


Bruce Blitz explaining the 94' Bulls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmjX4T18iU&=08m31s

[3ba11]

Even more, Iggy wasn't even the best scorer and assister on the that Nuggets team that 3ball is talking about. Hell we was TIED FOR 3RD IN SCORING!!!!. So now scoring doesn't matter as much? Andre Iguodala average 13ppg in 2013.


Not in the playoffs - in the 2013 Playoffs, Iggy was getting prime Pippen stats (18/8/5) as 2nd option to Ty Lawson, who was top dog.. Ty Lawson would be 1st option over Pippen too, so it was perfect.

Btw, Pippen got a bunch of all-nba's that he didn't deserve in the 90's due to winning spotlight/ring count - but those all-nba's don't make him a top 10 player - he was an iggy-level player and nowhere near top 10... Iggy-level isn't top 10 in any decade.

[97 bulls]

Not in the playoffs - in the 2013 Playoffs, Iggy was getting prime Pippen stats (18/8/5) as 2nd option to Ty Lawson, who was top dog.. Ty Lawson would be 1st option over Pippen too, so it was perfect.

Btw, Pippen got a bunch of all-nba's that he didn't deserve in the 90's due to winning spotlight/ring count - but those all-nba's don't make him a top 10 player - he was an iggy-level player and nowhere near top 10... Iggy-level isn't top 10 in any decade.

So you're saying Ty Lawson is a better scorer than Pippen? Lol. But whatever, you're argument is comparing Iggy in 13 to Pippen in 94 because Iggys team won 55 games. Like Pip. Now you're not even willing to call Iggy the best player on that Nuggets team. You called Lawson the "top dog". So you're making yourself look bad.

If the 94 Bulls had replaced Jordan with Ty Lawson instead of Pete Myers, they'd won the Championship.

[97 bulls]

3ball can't stay out of his own way lol.

[ELITEpower23]

So 1994 Chicago swapped out MJ for Pete Myers and only fell by two wins?

I see...

[leopardJuice]

Jordan listened to his coaches and didn't try to be the coach. He also played in a system which is why his teams still did well after he wasn't there. LeThotiana wants all the control and doesn't want to be coached. Hence why his teams drop off when he leaves. HIS FAULT!

[TheCorporation]

Jordan listened to his coaches and didn't try to be the coach. He also played in a system which is why his teams still did well after he wasn't there. LeThotiana wants all the control and doesn't want to be coached. Hence why his teams drop off when he leaves. HIS FAULT!

Yeahhhhhhhhhhh :lol

It's either all of that novel BS or MJ just wasn't as impactful as we think. Check mate.

[leopardJuice]

Jordan listened to his coaches and followed a system. Unlike someone who wants full control of everything and refuses to play in a system or be coached. Hence 6/6 and hence

4/10

[8Ball]

Retard egokiller is back :lol


I got your friend 3ball banned.


Delicious.

[ELITEpower23]

Retard egokiller is back :lol


I got your friend 3ball banned.


Delicious.

:oldlol: