Parish, Worthy, or Klay could still dominate as 3rd option and were still stars

[3ba11]

So why did Love and Bosh become BUMMY ROLE PLAYERS alongside Lebron if he elevates guys - everyone thought they sucked after playing with Lebron and they would average 12 ppg in series alongside Lebron (role players).

Why did Kuzma go from a budding star to nothing?

Why did Ingram have a 1-year drop in his 3-point efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP alongside Lebron, and then resume his upward trajectory upon escaping Lebron-ball?

Why did guys like Clarkson, Rose, Hughes, Jamison or Crowder kill it without Lebron but sucked alongside him?

Who did Lebron elevate - which player improved statistically during their tenure with Lebron? I think Kyrie increased his ppg by 2 points - that's the most growth anyone had alongside Lebron... How does it compare to the statistical growth that Pippen, BJ and Grant had alongside MJ?..

And teaming up with another star isn't elevating them - it's just teaming up - no one actually improved as ballplayers alongside Lebron and most were considered bums after playing with him

[SATAN]

LeBron!! :mad: :cry:

LeBron would have got Stackhouse a chip, casual.

[000]

Because Legoat is the Goat. Dont you dare say anything bad about LeKing!!! He elevates ppl like no one else and had the best finals performance when he SINGLEHANDEDLY beat 22 ppg curry. He is also the smartest playmaker ever, averaging a monstrous 7 apg in the playoffs!

[3ba11]

LeBron would have got Stackhouse a chip, casual.


Lebron's biggest carry-job ring was averaging 5 more ppg than Wade in the 12' and 13' Finals - his teammates matched or outscored him on the other championship runs..

So he never carried his team like Jordan, who averaged 10-30 more than his sidekick for every series of his career, including every Finals - it's night and day - not remotely close

[000]

LeBron would have got Stackhouse a chip, casual.
What makes stackhouse any better than antawn jamison?

[1987_Lakers]

By the time McHale hit his prime, Parish was a 16-17 ppg player, far from dominant, pretty much averaged the same points as '15-'17 Love.

[3ba11]

By the time McHale hit his prime, Parish was a 16-17 ppg player, far from dominant, pretty much averaged the same points as '15-'17 Love.


If Parish was older at the time you specified, then he was achieving his capacity alongside Bird, while prime Love cratered from top 4 in everything (PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48) to a role player.

And that's the key - Love had a role player role, while old Parish was still getting doubled on the post and still able to dominate when the Celtics needed him to - his role was far greater than Love's - Parish was still a star, so the Celtics had a far greater team ceiling

And his usage was basically the same his entire career, which is the best evidence that his role wasn't reduced alongside Bird, while Love's usage/role cratered under Lebron-ball..

[And1AllDay]

LeBron would have got Stackhouse a chip, casual.

bang!!!

[1987_Lakers]

If Parish was older at the time you specified, then he was achieving his capacity alongside Bird, while prime Love cratered from top 4 in everything (PER, VORP, BPM, WS/48) to a role player.

And that's the key - Love had a role player role, while old Parish was still getting doubled on the post and still able to dominate when the Celtics needed him to - his role was far greater than Love's - Parish was still a star, so the Celtics had a far greater team ceiling

And his usage was basically the same his entire career, which is the best evidence that his role wasn't reduced alongside Bird, while Love's usage/role cratered under Lebron-ball..

lol at you believing Parish ever demanded a double team at that time, he didn't have much post moves, he usually attempted short baseline shots & was very good in the fast break, he was limited.

[AirBonner]

I thought for sure op made a thread that didn’t involve LeBron but there he did slip it in at the end lol

[And1AllDay]

I thought for sure op made a thread that didn’t involve LeBron but there he did slip it in at the end lol

:oldlol::roll:


bran gottem spinnin

:dancin

[StrongLurk]

Why doesn't OP talk about how Kawhi's teammates play better without him? Plenty of Raptors players had career years after Kawhi left.

Also, Paul George was at his best with Westbrook (who is a much worse version of Lebron) and fell off hard with Kawhi (similar to 96-98 MJ).

[3ba11]

Why doesn't OP talk about how Kawhi's teammates play better without him? Plenty of Raptors players had career years after Kawhi left.

Also, Paul George was at his best with Westbrook (who is a much worse version of Lebron) and fell off hard with Kawhi (similar to 96-98 MJ).


Lowry, Siakam and company were still stars and could dominate stretches when needed and everyone thought they were key players and good and viable

Otoh, everyone alongside Lebron is a role player that can average 13 ppg in a series and everyone thinks they suck and aren't playing well - it's the story of his career - he simply does NOT elevate players - he fools everyone by increasing his teammates' efficiency, but he does this by lowering their role and production...

Production is more important than efficiency - the 14' Heat had the higher efficiency against the Spurs than any Spurs opponent, but their lowest production (ppg) made them lose by record amount.

[ShawkFactory]

The thing is, we've never seen what kind of numbers prime Worthy and Parish would have put up as first options. I'm pretty sure you've made a Pippen thread before saying that if Worthy was the #1 guy he would have scored 26-28 a game and this is why he was better than 20 PPG Pippen (even though Worthy also scored 20 a game). Which, if you believe that, then the numbers he ACTUALLY put up are absolutely cratered by his role.

[3ba11]

The thing is, we've never seen what kind of numbers prime Worthy and Parish would have put up as first options. I'm pretty sure you've made a Pippen thread before saying that if Worthy was the #1 guy he would have scored 26-28 a game and this is why he was better than 20 PPG Pippen (even though Worthy also scored 20 a game). Which, if you believe that, then the numbers he ACTUALLY put up are absolutely cratered by his role.


PLAYOFFS

87' Worthy..... 24 on 59% (leading scorer on Lakers)

88' Worthy..... 21 on 52% (leading scorer and FMVP)

89' Worthy..... 25 on 57% (leading scorer)

90' Worthy..... 24 on 50% (leading scorer)



Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF, or 24 on 60% in the 85' Finals.. He has a TON of series that are far better than Pippen ever played.. He averaged 23 on 72% in a series... 28 on 60%... Pippen is nowhere near Worthy... MJ/Worthy would be the same athletic wing 1-2 punch that's so devastating

[red1]

pippen won 50+ games without jordan




I wonder how many games kyrie or heatles wade would win without lebron :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

PLAYOFFS

87' Worthy..... 24 on 59% (leading scorer on Lakers)

88' Worthy..... 21 on 52% (leading scorer and FMVP)

89' Worthy..... 25 on 57% (leading scorer)

90' Worthy..... 24 on 50% (leading scorer)



Worthy averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF, or 24 on 60% in the 85' Finals.. He has a TON of series that are far better than Pippen ever played

a) I never said Pippen > Worthy
b) you completely ignored the point of my post
c) Worthy wasn't the 3rd option on any of those teams (more to the point of the thread you created)

God you really break down on whatever agenda you're trying to push whenever Jordan or Pippen are brought up :lol

I'll explain it better for you. You said this:


the Warriors simply have 3 elite 1st options

Which means you admit that Klay Thompson is an elite scoring first option. I believe you've even referenced his 26 ppg with KD out. Well...he scored 20-22 a game during the KD run and had several series in the 15-17 range. That's not elite first option production.

The same is true of the Worthy example I used that you completed ignored and made about how Worthy > Pippen.

So you've inadvertently admitted that being a 3rd option craters scoring production.

Worthy, and particularly Parish, were never seen as first options. We don't know what the prime versions of themselves would look like as lead dogs on bad teams.

But...if Chris Bosh was just drafted into a situation with Lebron and Wade and has his 18/8 with his typical excellent defense on a team with multiple titles...well is that really much different than what Parish looked like?

Ditto with Kevin Love. If he plays his whole career with Lebron and Kyrie and carves out his niche as a hustling, beast-rebounding, break-starting 18/13 kind of guy on multiple title teams do we look at him as a "bummy role player" or as a great one. Playing solo hurts the perception of them.

Like are we absolutely sure that if Horace Grant doesn't play with the Bulls and Magic but instead with the Mavericks or something that he's not a 20/12 guy?

[3ba11]

a) I never said Pippen > Worthy
b) you completely ignored the point of my post
c) Worthy wasn't the 3rd option on any of those teams (more to the point of the thread you created)

God you really break down on whatever agenda you're trying to push whenever Jordan or Pippen are brought up :lol

I'll explain it better for you. You said this:



Which means you admit that Klay Thompson is an elite scoring first option. I believe you've even referenced his 26 ppg with KD out. Well...he scored 20-22 a game during the KD run and had several series in the 15-17 range. That's not elite first option production.

The same is true of the Worthy example I used that you completed ignored and made about how Worthy > Pippen.

So you've inadvertently admitted that being a 3rd option craters scoring production.

Worthy, and particularly Parish, were never seen as first options. We don't know what the prime versions of themselves would look like as lead dogs on bad teams.

But...if Chris Bosh was just drafted into a situation with Lebron and Wade and has his 18/8 with his typical excellent defense on a team with multiple titles...well is that really much different than what Parish looked like?

Ditto with Kevin Love. If he plays his whole career with Lebron and Kyrie and carves out his niche as a hustling, beast-rebounding, break-starting 18/13 kind of guy on multiple title teams do we look at him as a "bummy role player" or as a great one. Playing solo hurts the perception of them.

Like are we absolutely sure that if Horace Grant doesn't play with the Bulls and Magic but instead with the Mavericks or something that he's not a 20/12 guy?


Yes.. We are 100% certain that Horace wasn't a 20/12 guy.. He was a dunker and rebounder and wasn't even that good at the latter

Ultimately, the point is that Lebron's teammates played like garbage next to him for 18 years - that's the story of his career - so how did he elevate anyone?.. Everyone was already a star before joining him, and teaming up isn't "elevating"... It's just teaming up.

Otoh, other 3rd options like Worthy, Klay, Parish or the Nets super-team this year - everyone is still a star - no one has to become a bummy role player like Lebron-ball

Lebron's skillset simply reduces teammate role (spot-up shooter), while players that are skilled enough to incorporate a little off-ball play will elevate teammate role to playmaker, so players can reach closer to capacity

[StrongLurk]

Lowry, Siakam and company were still stars and could dominate stretches when needed and everyone thought they were key players and good and viable

Otoh, everyone alongside Lebron is a role player that can average 13 ppg in a series and everyone thinks they suck and aren't playing well - it's the story of his career - he simply does NOT elevate players - he fools everyone by increasing his teammates' efficiency, but he does this by lowering their role and production...

Production is more important than efficiency - the 14' Heat had the higher efficiency against the Spurs than any Spurs opponent, but their lowest production (ppg) made them lose by record amount.

You didn't address anything I said. How exactly did PG have his best season ever playing with a worse version of Lebron (Westbrook)? Why did he struggle with Kawhi so much?

[ShawkFactory]

Yes.. We are 100% certain that Horace wasn't a 20/12 guy.. He was a dunker and rebounder and wasn't even that good at the latter

Ultimately, the point is that Lebron's teammates played like garbage next to him for 18 years - that's the story of his career - so how did he elevate anyone?.. Everyone was already a star before joining him, and teaming up isn't "elevating"... It's just teaming up.

Otoh, other 3rd options like Worthy, Klay, Parish or the Nets super-team this year - everyone is still a star - no one has to become a bummy role player like Lebron-ball

Lebron's skillset simply reduces teammate role (spot-up shooter), while players that are skilled enough to incorporate a little off-ball play will elevate teammate role to playmaker, so players can reach closer to capacity

Just ignore everything and repeat your initial agenda in the face of actual logic.

Classic

[3ba11]

Just ignore everything and repeat your initial agenda in the face of actual logic.

Classic


What is there to address?

Yes, I agree that Klay, Worthy and Parish were amazing and averaged a zillion points

that's my point - they were still stars and dominant, while Lebron turns guys into role players

what other point was I missing?... Klay/Parish/Worthy/Kyrie were still stars at 3rd option and didn't have to be reduced to 12 ppg bum like Bosh/Love under Lebron-ball

[ShawkFactory]

What is there to address?

Yes, I agree that Klay, Worthy and Parish were amazing and averaged a zillion points

that's my point - they were still stars and dominant, while Lebron turns guys into role players

what other point was I missing?... Klay/Parish/Worthy/Kyrie were still stars at 3rd option and didn't have to be reduced to 12 ppg bum like Bosh/Love under Lebron-ball

That..wasn't the point at all :lol

You're just addressing yourself. Like my 90 year old senile grandmother.

[SouBeachTalents]

a) I never said Pippen > Worthy
b) you completely ignored the point of my post
c) Worthy wasn't the 3rd option on any of those teams (more to the point of the thread you created)

God you really break down on whatever agenda you're trying to push whenever Jordan or Pippen are brought up :lol

I'll explain it better for you. You said this:



Which means you admit that Klay Thompson is an elite scoring first option. I believe you've even referenced his 26 ppg with KD out. Well...he scored 20-22 a game during the KD run and had several series in the 15-17 range. That's not elite first option production.

The same is true of the Worthy example I used that you completed ignored and made about how Worthy > Pippen.

So you've inadvertently admitted that being a 3rd option craters scoring production.

Worthy, and particularly Parish, were never seen as first options. We don't know what the prime versions of themselves would look like as lead dogs on bad teams.

But...if Chris Bosh was just drafted into a situation with Lebron and Wade and has his 18/8 with his typical excellent defense on a team with multiple titles...well is that really much different than what Parish looked like?

Ditto with Kevin Love. If he plays his whole career with Lebron and Kyrie and carves out his niche as a hustling, beast-rebounding, break-starting 18/13 kind of guy on multiple title teams do we look at him as a "bummy role player" or as a great one. Playing solo hurts the perception of them.

Like are we absolutely sure that if Horace Grant doesn't play with the Bulls and Magic but instead with the Mavericks or something that he's not a 20/12 guy?
You literally destroyed all of OP's talking points with ruthless precision :applause: Notice he's too much of a pusssy to even try to address any of the points that you made, instead he's just repeating the same incoherent babble like a mental patient :lol

[3ba11]

That..wasn't the point at all :lol

You're just addressing yourself. Like my 90 year old senile grandmother.


Make your point concisely or I won't read it

It's no different than my posts - if they're longer than this post, you don't read them..

That's why I try to keep my OP's to a sentence or two - if you can't make your point in that time, then you don't have one or haven't fleshed it out sufficiently.. aka you don't understand your own point well enough to say it concisely.

So make your point again more concisely - let me know right away what you want me to respond to - no one can understand what you said or what your point was

[Charlie Sheen]

c) Worthy wasn't the 3rd option on any of those teams (more to the point of the thread you created)



Yup. James Worthy was the second option in the halfcourt after Kareem on those showtime Lakers.

It's unfair to straight compare him to Bosh and Love anyway. He didn't have to come in to a new environment and fit into his role... Worthy had the luxury of continuity and growing into his role. He played with the same major players and coaches for most of his career.

[3ba11]

Thread Cliffs

The story of Lebron's career is underperforming teammates for 18 years, so he doesn't elevate teammates and no teammate saw their stats increase during their tenure with Lebron - everyone was already good before joining him, and Lebron teaming up with guys to win titles (ring-chasing) doesn't equal "elevating guys".. Teaming up doesn't equal elevating

[1987_Lakers]

Thread Cliffs

1-9

[ShawkFactory]

Make your point concisely or I won't read it

It's no different than my posts - if they're longer than this post, you don't read them..

That's why I try to keep my OP's to a sentence or two - if you can't make your point in that time, then you don't have one or haven't fleshed it out sufficiently.. aka you don't understand your own point well enough to say it concisely.

So make your point again more concisely - let me know right away what you want me to respond to - no one can understand what you said or what your point was

:roll: you're pathetic. Just admit you aren't interested in a basketball discussion.

But here you go:

3ball: "Klay and Worthy would score more if they were 1st instead of 3rd options" **proof of this in my previous post; refer to it if you'd like**

Also 3ball: "Bosh and Love had their numbers cratered when they moved from 1st to 3rd options" **you claim that this is because they played with Lebron but moving from 1st to 3rd options is exactly what happened; ignoring that aspect is like your favorite thing**

ShawkFactory: "that's...the same thing.."

3ball: "shut up, Lebron sucks"

[3ba11]

:roll: you're pathetic. Just admit you aren't interested in a basketball discussion.

But here you go:

3ball: "Klay and Worthy would score more if they were 1st instead of 3rd options" **proof of this in my previous post; refer to it if you'd like**

Also 3ball: "Bosh and Love had their numbers cratered when they moved from 1st to 3rd options" **you claim that this is because they played with Lebron but moving from 1st to 3rd options is exactly what happened; ignoring that aspect is like your favorite thing**

ShawkFactory: "that's...the same thing.."

3ball: "shut up, Lebron sucks"


So if Worthy wasn't 3rd option, who was?.. Kareem?... Magic?...

They were all superstars and not turned into role players like Love or Bosh

Again, everyone is a star - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums..

Same thing with the Warriors - who was 3rd option - KD, Curry or Klay?... They were all superstar players - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums... How about the Nets - KD/Harden/Kyrie - they're all superstar players... Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums,.,... Parish/Bird/McHale?... same thing - they're all star players.. Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums

[ShawkFactory]

So if Worthy wasn't 3rd option, who was?.. Kareem?... Magic?...

They were all superstars and not turned into role players like Love or Bosh

Again, everyone is a star - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums..

Same thing with the Warriors - who was 3rd option - KD, Curry or Klay?... They were all superstar players - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums... How about the Nets - KD/Harden/Kyrie - they're all superstar players... Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums,.,... Parish/Bird/McHale?... same thing - they're all star players.. Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums


Just admit you aren't interested in a basketball discussion.

I guess that's your way of doing that. Baby steps I suppose

[3ba11]

I guess that's your way of doing that. Baby steps I suppose


And now that you've been destroyed, you won't respond or concede.. that's fine.. i wasn't expecting a concession.

Again, everyone is a superstar in the other Big 3's - only Lebron turns his Big 3 teammates into role playing bums..

Look at the Warriors - who was 3rd option - KD, Curry or Klay?... They were all superstar players - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums... How about the Nets - KD/Harden/Kyrie - they're all superstar players... Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums,.,... Parish/Bird/McHale?... same thing - they're all star players.. Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums... Magic/Worthy/Kareem?.. you know the rest

[SouBeachTalents]

OP's also gone from Klay < Oubre to Klay being a superstar elite 1st option :lol

[ShawkFactory]

And now that you've been destroyed, you won't respond or concede.. that's fine.. i wasn't expecting a concession.

Again, everyone is a superstar in the other Big 3's - only Lebron turns his Big 3 teammates into role playing bums..

Look at the Warriors - who was 3rd option - KD, Curry or Klay?... They were all superstar players - only Lebron turns guys into role playing bums... How about the Nets - KD/Harden/Kyrie - they're all superstar players... Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums,.,... Parish/Bird/McHale?... same thing - they're all star players.. Only Lebron turns guys into role-playing bums... Magic/Worthy/Kareem?.. you know the rest

You need to move on to your next thread :lol

[3ba11]

You need to move on to your next thread :lol

that's what i thouight

every member of a big 3 remains a star, except Lebron's because he turns them into bummy role players that everyone thinks sucks

[j3lademaster]

OP's also gone from Klay < Oubre to Klay being a superstar elite 1st option :lolmaybe he meant Kelly>Klay as first option for Calvin Klein's 2021 Spring catalog

[StrongLurk]

You didn't address anything I said. How exactly did PG have his best season ever playing with a worse version of Lebron (Westbrook)? Why did he struggle with Kawhi so much?

OP, care to comment?

[Ne 1]

They won championships and never won again after… tell me again how that’s not elevating someone?

Think of this. MJ and Pippen used to go to All Star games together but no one else on the team went. MJ leaves and Armstrong + Grant go with Pippen, did Pippen help to elevate their games in ways MJ couldn’t or is their game elevated because they won when MJ played?

Tell me why MJ just became a scorer only when Pippen didn’t play with him but when he did that is the only time he could win? Did Pippen elevate MJ to a winner?

Pippen went further in the playoffs without MJ than MJ has ever been without Pippen..

Who is really the guy that helped elevate?

[Ne 1]

FYI,

D Rose and Jae Crowder played 2 weeks with LeBron.... Stop suing their names for clout because it looks sad lol