Why exactly is Kobe considered not top 10 of all time?

[outofstomach]

not making an argument for or against, just genuinely curious, ive seen that being said around this site for quite awhile and i occasionally see it on other forums as well, why though exactly? what cemented him outside of it?

[scuzzy]

Because it's an overwhelming consensus he's ranked 12th


And we must respect that

[StrongLurk]

Kobe is definitely somewhere in the 6-10 range, ESPECIALLY if you don't really put value on any players that played before the 80's.

Mostly trolls or Kobe haters but him outside the top 10.

[Airupthere]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon

Order it however you like but that would be the usual top 10. One could make a case for kobe over olajuwon.

[SATAN]

Cheap knock off Jordan replica that jacked up way more terrible shots. An egocentric ball hog without the acclaim of MJ. A great player and athlete nevertheless.

[iamgine]

not making an argument for or against, just genuinely curious, ive seen that being said around this site for quite awhile and i occasionally see it on other forums as well, why though exactly? what cemented him outside of it?

Perhaps because many people thinking there are at least 10 better/greater player than him

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe is definitely somewhere in the 6-10 range, ESPECIALLY if you don't really put value on any players that played before the 80's.

Mostly trolls or Kobe haters but him outside the top 10.
That's fcking ridiculous :lol Kobe's left outside the top 10 on several legitimate lists. He's fringe top 10, he'll be in some top 10's, but it's def not a consensus

[HoopsNY]

I tend to put a lot of weight on postseason, finals, and elimination game performances. For that reason, you have to pull Kobe out of the top 10. I do agree some of the arguments are compelling, but 11-12 is where I have him.

Though I can see why someone might say you can't have a guy like Duncan ahead of him. I just think Duncan did what it took to get it done while Kobe sometimes didn't.

[Airupthere]

I tend to put a lot of weight on postseason, finals, and elimination game performances. For that reason, you have to pull Kobe out of the top 10. I do agree some of the arguments are compelling, but 11-12 is where I have him.

Though I can see why someone might say you can't have a guy like Duncan ahead of him. I just think Duncan did what it took to get it done while Kobe sometimes didn't.

Who would you put above kobe if you were to have him at 12?

[8Ball]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon

Order it however you like but that would be the usual top 10. One could make a case for kobe over olajuwon.

You can replace Olajuwon with Kobe but you can't go that many more after that.


Reason I can't put Kobe ahead of Duncan and Bird is because Bird won 3 straight MVPs which is near impossible to do in modern era and Duncan has more hardware than Kobe.

[HoopsNY]

Who would you put above kobe if you were to have him at 12?

Big O or Jerry West.

My top 10 in no specific order includes

MJ
Kareem
Hakeem
LeBron
Bird
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq

Big O, West, Kobe in 11-13 probably.

[8Ball]

Kobe is a better player than West or Big O.

I'm not taking either of those players over Kobe in a draft.

[Full Court]

You could make different and lengthy arguments about it, but one thing that always sticks out to me is that out of Kobe's 5 championships, he was arguably the first option in only 2 of them. Quite a difference from someone like Jordan who was the clear cut MVP for all six of his titles. Having Shaq overshadow him for years separates Kobe from those in my top 10 list.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe is a better player than West or Big O.

I'm not taking either of those players over Kobe in a draft.

I'm not so sure. West was clutch af and an amazing postseason/finals performer. West won FMVP on a losing team. He was as good of a scorer, a better passer, as good of a rebounder if not better, as good if not a better shooter, and arguably as good of a defender judging by what I've read.

Pretty crazy how in his final season, they started counting steals. West was 35 years old, played in 31 games, and averaged nearly 3 steals a game. What's he doing in his prime then?

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm not so sure. West was clutch af and an amazing postseason/finals performer. West won FMVP on a losing team. He was as good of a scorer, a better passer, as good of a rebounder if not better, as good if not a better shooter, and arguably as good of a defender judging by what I've read.

Pretty crazy how in his final season, they started counting steals. West was 35 years old, played in 31 games, and averaged nearly 3 steals a game. What's he doing in his prime then?
It was a different era, different pace etc, but West had like 7 great Finals performances and lost all of them. Ironically the one Finals he won his efficiency was atrocious the entire playoffs :lol

[Full Court]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon

Order it however you like but that would be the usual top 10. One could make a case for kobe over olajuwon.


This is a pretty good list. I'd probably substitute Shaq for Alajuwon, but they're pretty close.

[HoopsNY]

It was a different era, different pace etc, but West had like 7 great Finals performances and lost all of them. Ironically the one Finals he won his efficiency was atrocious the entire playoffs :lol

Yea. I'm not married to the idea. But I do think context matters when you're consistently up against Russell's Celtics.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yea. I'm not married to the idea. But I do think context matters when you're consistently up against Russell's Celtics.
Nah, I was agreeing with you. West was awesome in the Finals and Kobe was usually pedestrian, yet one has 5x the titles

[1987_Lakers]

You can replace Olajuwon with Kobe but you can't go that many more after that.


Reason I can't put Kobe ahead of Duncan and Bird is because Bird won 3 straight MVPs which is near impossible to do in modern era and Duncan has more hardware than Kobe.

I agree with this, at best you can put Kobe at the #10 spot, outside of Hakeem's '93-'95 seasons his resume is pretty poor compared to other greats, constant 1st round exits, but I can see why some people have Hakeem over Kobe, Hakeem's peak was THAT good, arguably top 5 ever peak, GOAT defense and amazing scoring skills.

[HoopsNY]

Nah, I was agreeing with you. West was awesome in the Finals and Kobe was usually pedestrian, yet one has 5x the titles

Ah I see. Good point. It's really tough ranking the old timers, but I think it is possible because many of them played long enough where their early 60s performances carried into the early 70s, which wasn't much different to the way the game was played in the early to mid 80s.

[8Ball]

I'm not so sure. West was clutch af and an amazing postseason/finals performer. West won FMVP on a losing team. He was as good of a scorer, a better passer, as good of a rebounder if not better, as good if not a better shooter, and arguably as good of a defender judging by what I've read.

Pretty crazy how in his final season, they started counting steals. West was 35 years old, played in 31 games, and averaged nearly 3 steals a game. What's he doing in his prime then?

West is an all time great but I don't think he is a better basketball player than Kobe which matters to me. Which is why I don't like to rank Russell that high, Russell isn't particularly skilled at basketball compared to all the other top 10s but that's another argument.

Stats must incorporate competition and stats in the 60s are heavily inflated due to competition.

Kobe has more hardware than West and is just as good of a player or better.

[8Ball]

Nah, I was agreeing with you. West was awesome in the Finals and Kobe was usually pedestrian, yet one has 5x the titles

If you had the #1 draft pick in 2022 and you could pick 20 year old Jerry West or 20 year old Kobe you probably take Kobe.


Why is that? The answer is why Kobe is ahead of West all time.

[HoopsNY]

West is an all time great but I don't think he is a better basketball player than Kobe which matters to me. Which is why I don't like to rank Russell that high, Russell isn't particularly skilled at basketball compared to all the other top 10s but that's another argument.

Stats must incorporate competition and stats in the 60s are heavily inflated due to competition.

Kobe has more hardware than West and is just as good of a player or better.

Depends on how you look at it. Kobe was routinely up against weaker EC opponents in the finals whereas West was typically facing a team with 7 HOF'ers.

On the one hand, it's easy to say the competition was weak. On the other hand, it's also easy to say the competition was more concentrated. (Fewer spots lead to better players that fill them).

I understand your premise, though, which is why I feel it's more or less a toss up and would understand why someone would have Kobe ahead of them.

[8Ball]

I agree with this, at best you can put Kobe at the #10 spot, outside of Hakeem's '93-'95 seasons his resume is pretty poor compared to other greats, constant 1st round exits, but I can see why some people have Hakeem over Kobe, Hakeem's peak was THAT good, arguably top 5 ever peak, GOAT defense and amazing scoring skills.

Hakeem had 2 great years and then everything else is forgettable.


Hakeem is a victim of team construction. I always thought Hakeem and Duncan are equal in talent but Duncan has more hardware because of lucky team situation.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you had the #1 draft pick in 2022 and you could pick 20 year old Jerry West or 20 year old Kobe you probably take Kobe.


Why is that? The answer is why Kobe is ahead of West all time.
I have Kobe ranked ahead of West and would take him ahead of West in a draft. If you want the honest truth though, peak for peak I legitimately don't think Kobe was noticeably better than Durant, Kawhi or Wade, though he has the obv egde over Durant & Kawhi in terms of things like leadership and intangibles

[coastalmarker99]

only Jeff and some sports writers from 5 years ago have kobe outside of the top 10. not even nick wright says that dumb sh*t

who's bumping him. hakeem? kobe accomplished more in just his time since shaq than hakeem did in his entire career


Oh really he did as here are Hakeem's career achievements for you to look at

2× NBA champion (1994, 1995)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1994, 1995)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1994)
12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997)
6× All-NBA First Team (1987–1989, 1993, 1994, 1997)
3× All-NBA Second Team (1986, 1990, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1995, 1999)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993, 1994)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1987, 1988, 1990, 1993, 1994)
4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1985, 1991, 1996, 1997)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
2× NBA rebounding leader (1989, 1990)
3× NBA blocks leader (1990, 1991, 1993)



If you say after looking at that that Kobe accomplished more in just his time since Shaq than Hakeem did in his entire career then you are an idiot.

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh really he did as here are Hakeem's career achievements for you to look at

2× NBA champion (1994, 1995)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1994, 1995)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1994)
12× NBA All-Star (1985–1990, 1992–1997)
6× All-NBA First Team (1987–1989, 1993, 1994, 1997)
3× All-NBA Second Team (1986, 1990, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1995, 1999)
2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1993, 1994)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1987, 1988, 1990, 1993, 1994)
4× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1985, 1991, 1996, 1997)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1985)
2× NBA rebounding leader (1989, 1990)
3× NBA blocks leader (1990, 1991, 1993)
Plus Hakeem's two titles SHIT on any of Kobe's, they're not even remotely close

[coastalmarker99]

Plus Hakeem's two titles SHIT on any of Kobe's, they're not even remotely close

1995 Rockets*; Olajuwon 33.0 / Drexler 20.5
1994 Rockets*; Olajuwon 28.9 / Maxwell 13.8

Heck, Olajuwon scored more than double of his 2nd scoring option in his 1994 title run. One of only 2 such instances (the other being 1975 obviously).


And that is not even bringing up his legendary 1995 run when he had some of the greatest comebacks in NBA history on route to the title.

[Pip' N Rodman]

at best kobe TO YOU


because literally hundreds of ex players, current players and coaches say otherwise

why do you and Jeff think you decide what's fact. do you know how retarded you 2 sound. even I've put lebron as high as 6th before. you need some serious hatred inside you to say nobody else can have a higher opinion of kobe than you. it's all subjective and relative to personal opinion. majority rules and most people have kobe around 5th or 6 in reality so you're just gonna have to suck it up. pull your pants up and walk it off you *** swapping liberal cuckold

How many 30 point triple doubles did Kobe get though?

[8Ball]

at best kobe TO YOU


because literally hundreds of ex players, current players and coaches say otherwise

why do you and Jeff think you decide what's fact. do you know how retarded you 2 sound. even I've put lebron as high as 6th before. you need some serious hatred inside you to say nobody else can have a higher opinion of kobe than you. it's all subjective and relative to personal opinion. majority rules and most people have kobe around 5th or 6 in reality so you're just gonna have to suck it up. pull your pants up and walk it off you *** swapping liberal cuckold

LeBron is top 2. Top 3 at worst amongst nearly all players and coaches.

[1987_Lakers]

at best kobe TO YOU


because literally hundreds of ex players, current players and coaches say otherwise

why do you and Jeff think you decide what's fact. do you know how retarded you 2 sound. even I've put lebron as high as 6th before. you need some serious hatred inside you to say nobody else can have a higher opinion of kobe than you. it's all subjective and relative to personal opinion. majority rules and most people have kobe around 5th or 6 in reality so you're just gonna have to suck it up. pull your pants up and walk it off you *** swapping liberal cuckold

:oldlol:

Yes, I have alot of hatred because I have Kobe ranked #10 at best, lmao. And no, Kobe is NOT ranked #6 or #5, maybe to casuals, but most true fans have him #10-#13, it's a cold hard reality you are just going to have to accept.

[coastalmarker99]

LeBron is top 2. Top 3 at worst.


Yep even in my all-time rankings of BOAT

I have

1 Wilt

2 Lebron



And then when it comes to my goat rankings

I have

Jordan

Wilt

Kareem

Lebron

In any order .

[SouBeachTalents]

1995 Rockets*; Olajuwon 33.0 / Drexler 20.5
1994 Rockets*; Olajuwon 28.9 / Maxwell 13.8

Heck, Olajuwon scored more than double of his 2nd scoring option in his 1994 title run. One of only 2 such instances (the other being 1975 obviously).
He won with arguably the weakest championship cast ever in '94, destroying Ewing in the Finals. Then in '95 he beat Stockton/Malone, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny ALL on the road, virtually half of the All-NBA Team from that season

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem had 2 great years and then everything else is forgettable.


Hakeem is a victim of team construction. I always thought Hakeem and Duncan are equal in talent but Duncan has more hardware because of lucky team situation.

Forgettable? Hakeem led his team to the finals in '86, dominating a Lakers team that won 62 games, all while their starting PG got cut from the team.

Between '86-'96, Hakeem put up 25/12/3/2/4 on 51%.

In the playoffs during that stretch, Hakeem put up 28/12/4/2/4 on 53%.

During that stretch, he won

DPOY 2x
All-Star 9x
Top 10 in MVP voting 9x
Top 5 in MVP voting 6x
All-NBA 9x
All-Defensive 7x

Just 2 years are memorable? You probably didn't see Hakeem play for the majority of his career to really understand how good he was and how his team's situation messed up his chances at playing for a real dynasty.

[SouBeachTalents]

Forgettable? Hakeem led his team to the finals in '86, dominating a Lakers team that won 62 games, all while their starting PG got cut from the team.

Between '86-'96, Hakeem put up 25/12/3/2/4 on 51%.

In the playoffs during that stretch, Hakeem put up 28/12/4/2/4 on 53%.

During that stretch, he won

DPOY 2x
All-Star 9x
Top 10 in MVP voting 9x
Top 5 in MVP voting 6x
All-NBA 9x
All-Defensive 7x

Just 2 years are memorable? You probably didn't see Hakeem play for the majority of his career to really understand how good he was and how his team's situation messed up his chances at playing for a real dynasty.
Him beating the defending champion Showtime Lakers then taking the '86 Celtics to 6 is almost forgotten about when discussing Hakeem

[coastalmarker99]

He won with arguably the weakest championship cast ever in '94, destroying Ewing in the Finals. Then in '95 he beat Stockton/Malone, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny ALL on the road, virtually half of the All-NBA Team from that season


If I was Hakeem I would be sending Starks a Christmas card every year as that game seven performance by him in the 1994 finals was just WOAT.

[HoopsNY]

Him beating the defending champion Showtime Lakers then taking the '86 Celtics to 6 is almost forgotten about when discussing Hakeem

I did a thread on here as to why Hakeem is severely underrated. I have no idea how to find it, but it would be great to look it up and see some of the arguments that myself and others put forth. Heck, even Roundball began disagreeing and eventually agreeing. And how often does that happen?

[coastalmarker99]

I did a thread on here as to why Hakeem is severely underrated. I have no idea how to find it, but it would be great to look it up and see some of the arguments that myself and others put forth. Heck, even Roundball began disagreeing and eventually agreeing. And how often does that happen?


Unfortunately for Hakeem Ralph Sampson getting hurt plus the other Rockets players having drug problems ruined basically a potential dynasty for the Rockets from 1987 onwards.



As Showtime with Kareem now in his 40's was not stopping those two HOF Rockets big men in the west.

[HoopsNY]

Unfortunately for Hakeem Ralph Sampson getting hurt plus the other Rockets players having drug problems ruined basically a potential dynasty for the Rockets from 1987 onwards.



As Showtime with Kareem in his 40's was not stopping those two HOF Rockets big men in the west.

Yep. I highlighted that in my OP. Many people don't understand who the original twin towers were and how good Sampson was. Not to mention, the unfortunate circumstances with Lucas, Wiggins, and Lloyd.

Just look at this thread and others where Hakeem's consistent 1st round exits are always brought up, yet the demise of his franchise's starters and best bench player are never mentioned.

I always say, imagine Bird losing McHale, Walton, DJ, and Ainge. Or imagine Magic losing Kareem, Cooper, Scott, and McAdoo. What if Isiah loses Dumars, Mahorn, and Vinnie Johnson?

If that Rockets team stays together and there are no cocaine addictions, Hakeem is probably winning 4-5 titles in his career and multiple MVP awards. He routinely gets punished for what wasn't in his control.

[Hey Yo]

Big O or Jerry West.

My top 10 in no specific order includes

MJ
Kareem
Hakeem
LeBron
Bird
Russell
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq

Big O, West, Kobe in 11-13 probably.

I see where you said you put a lot emphasis on postseasons. You have Hakeem at 3, yet he lost in the first round like 8x.

That doesn't seem excessive to you for a guy you have 3rd all-time??

[SouBeachTalents]

ummm... 94 is slightly better than 09 for kobe

but how is 95 so much better than 09 or even 2010 considering he had clyde drexler dropping 22ppg in the finals compared to gasols 18 a game

and i don't remember gasol ever going for 40 during either title run like drexler did


also don't remember duncan or lebron being retired playing baseball
'94 is significantly better than '09, Kobe's team was much better, and Hakeem's competition in '95 blows away Kobe's in 2010

[SouBeachTalents]

I see where you said you put a lot emphasis on postseasons. You have Hakeem at 3, yet he lost in the first round like 8x.

That doesn't seem excessive to you for a guy you have 3rd all-time??
Bro, he literally says he doesn't have it in specific order :lol

[HoopsNY]

I see where you said you put a lot emphasis on postseasons. You have Hakeem at 3, yet he lost in the first round like 8x.

That doesn't seem excessive to you for a guy you have 3rd all-time??

Coastal, see what I mean?

[baudkarma]

I don't have an informed opinion on this debate, so I will not offer one.

But I will say, holy crap, this is what I came to ISH hoping to find. Intelligent, informed fans posting their opinions, listening to opposing opinions, each side reinforcing the argument with more stats and arguments. No personal attacks, no diverting the thread off to some LeBron/MJ thread.

[Pip' N Rodman]

https://voca.ro/1k4CFbpvk8GM

Ever been diagnosed with autism?

[HoopsNY]

'94 is significantly better than '09, Kobe's team was much better, and Hakeem's competition in '95 blows away Kobe's in 2010

100%. Do people forget that Horace Grant was at his peak when he joined Orlando? Grant was All-Defensive 2nd Team and an All-Star in 1994, then again All-Defensive 2nd Team in 1995. He joins a team with Shaq and Penny, a former 20 PPG scorer in Nick Anderson, and a 6th MOY contender in Dennis Scott.

Scott, if anyone remembers, had eventually held the NBA record for 3's in a game. He was a former 20 PPG scorer himself for Orlando. That Magic team was STACKED.

[SouBeachTalents]

100%. Do people forget that Horace Grant was at his peak when he joined Orlando? Grant was All-Defensive 2nd Team and an All-Star in 1994, then again All-Defensive 2nd Team in 1995. He joins a team with Shaq and Penny, a former 20 PPG scorer in Nick Anderson, and a 6th MOY contender in Dennis Scott.

Scott, if anyone remembers, had eventually held the NBA record for 3's in a game. He was a former 20 PPG scorer himself for Orlando. That Magic team was STACKED.
Do you think the 2010 Celtics are even close to them or do you have the '95 Magic as clearly better? And who do you think was better between the '95 Spurs & 2010 Suns?

[coastalmarker99]

https://voca.ro/1k4CFbpvk8GM

Do you have a mental disability as I mean no offence in asking as you sound like you have trouble speaking normally?



If that is the case then I would seriously recommend you going to speech therapy to help yourself get better at speaking.

[MadDog]

Plus Hakeem's two titles SHIT on any of Kobe's, they're not even remotely close

Yeah, that's not true. :oldlol: In the playoffs, 09 Kobe was actually more efficient than 95 Hakeem. His player efficiency, box plus minus and value over replacement were all better than Hakeem's. Not to mention Kobe scoring burden was larger.

Not a big fan of advanced metrics, but there's no way Hakeem "shitted" on Kobe. If anything its the other way around. Their impact was absolutely comparable.

[coastalmarker99]

If you are going to argue Kobe being the goat because of his high scoring games.


Then using your logic i can basically say that Wilt is the undisputed goat


As he has the most

40pt games

50pt games

60pt games

70pt games


All by a mile despite the fact that he was only a scorer for his first seven seasons from 1959 to 1966.


Hell, he is the only player in NBA history to average over 40 PPG over the course of a full season and he did it multiple times.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, that's not true. :oldlol: In the playoffs, 09 Kobe was actually more efficient than 95 Hakeem. His player efficiency, box plus minus and value over replacement were all better than Hakeem's. Not to mention Kobe scoring burden was larger.

Not a big fan of advanced metrics, but there's no way Hakeem "shitted" on Kobe. If anything its the other way around. Their impact was absolutely comparable.
Hakeem averaged more ppg and his efficiency was literally .04% lower :lol And even if you don't think his play was better, which I'd def disagree with, his competition isn't even close. He went h2h against Robinson & Shaq in addition to playing Malone/Stockton & Barkley, while Kobe went up against Carmelo & Dwight

[coastalmarker99]

Hakeem averaged more ppg and his efficiency was literally .04% lower :lol And even if you don't think his play was better, which I'd def disagree with, his competition isn't even close. He went h2h against Robinson & Shaq in addition to playing Malone/Stockton & Barkley, while Kobe went up against Carmelo & Dwight


Hakeem's two-way impact on both sides of the court tips the argument in his favour when it comes to his and Kobe's title runs.



As Hakeem is a goat defender while Kobe is not even in the top ten of all time when it comes to defenders.




Also If Hakeem is struggling to score then he makes up for it in the other areas of the game while Kobe is basically useless if he is struggling to score.

[MadDog]

Hakeem averaged more ppg and his efficiency was literally .04% lower :lol And even if you don't think his play was better, which I'd def disagree with, his competition isn't even close. He went h2h against Robinson & Shaq in addition to playing Malone/Stockton & Barkley, while Kobe went up against Carmelo & Dwight

I don't care that you think Hakeem was better. He was ALL TIME those 2 runs. But to say he "shitted" on Kobe is nonsense. Kobe's got him beat in impact metrics, and all-around, was the more efficient player. Via PER.

The Nuggets were great in 09. That was arguably Melo's best year of his career. Billups was in his prime, and KMart/Nene were also pretty good. Ditto with the Magic, who were the best three-point shooting team. You outta know. They sent your boy packing. :oldlol:

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't care that you think Hakeem was better. He was ALL TIME those 2 runs. But to say he "shitted" on Kobe is nonsense. Kobe's got him beat in impact metrics, and all-around, was the more efficient player. Via PER.

The Nuggets were great in 09. That was arguably Melo's best year of his career. Billups was in his prime, and KMart/Nene were also pretty good. Ditto with the Magic, who were the best three-point shooting team. You outta know. They sent your boy packing. :oldlol:
Well, now you're just arguing semantics. If you don't like "shitted" on, then Hakeem was clearly better, against superior competition to boot

[coastalmarker99]

There is clear proof of Wilt's 100 point game


As we have radio broadcasts


And please if it wasn't real wouldn't one of New Yorks players said something about it being fake in the 60 years that have passed since that game.

[MadDog]

Well, now you're just arguing semantics. If you don't like "shitted" on, then Hakeem was clearly better, against superior competition to boot

Not semantics at all. Being better than someone vs "shitting on them" are two completely different things. Fact is, Kobe's impact was comparable to Hakeem's despite his "GOAT" comp. Heck, by the numbers 2010 Kobe is comparable too. And Boston was as good as any of the teams Hakeem beat.

[coastalmarker99]

Not semantics at all. Being better than someone vs "shitting on them" are two different things. Get real. Kobe's impact was comparable to Hakeem's despite his "GOAT" comp. Heck, by then umbers 2010 Kobe is comparable too. And Boston was as good as any of the teams Hakeem beat.


No, that 2010 Celtics team is not better than Shaq's magic team.

[MadDog]

No, that 2010 Celtics team is not better than Shaq's magic team.

Boston beats them in a 7 game series imo. 4 HOF'er starters, and really good defenders in Perkins and Tony Allen. People are fooled by their regular-season W/L, but they cranked it up in the playoffs. Led the postseason in DRTG iirc.

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe doesn't have better accolades than the people above him. Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, and LeBron all have more of either finals MVPs or MVPs while matching Kobe in the other (except Russell, who won 0 finals MVPs but won 10 championships before they started giving finals MVPs).


Kobe just doesn't have the relative success of the guys above him. He played longer than a lot of the others, so he could stack up all NBA teams and all-star teams, but his peak wasn't as dominant, so he's below them in rankings.

[MadDog]

I have Kobe ranked 10 overall. Can see arguments made as high as 6-7.

[coastalmarker99]

I have Kobe ranked 10 overall. Can see arguments made as high as 6-7.

10th to 12th overall is where I have him personally.

[jalbert009]

I think Julius Erving has a case of being in the top 10 as well. His ABA accomplishments should count to some degree. If he started his career in the NBA who is to say he didn't have the same success.

NBA champion (1983)
2× ABA champion (1974, 1976)
2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1981)
3× ABA Most Valuable Player (1974–1976)
11× NBA All-Star (1977–1987)
5× ABA All-Star (1972–1976)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1983)
5× All-NBA First Team (1978, 1980–1983)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1977, 1984)
4× All-ABA First Team (1973–1976)
All-ABA Second Team (1972)
ABA All-Defensive First Team (1976)
ABA All-Rookie First Team (1972)
3× ABA scoring champion (1973, 1974, 1976)
ABA Slam Dunk Champion (1976)
J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award (1983)
No. 32 retired by Brooklyn NetsNo. 6 retired by Philadelphia 76ers
ABA All-Time TeamNBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
Third-team All-American – NABC, UPI (1971)
No. 32 retired by UMass Minutemen

Dr J is a 4x MVP, 3x Champion, 16x All Star and 12x All NBA/ABA

That hardware is probably closer to top 5 All time. And just to add to this conversation if Dr J should be rated factoring in his ABA hardware then that would further bump Kobe higher in the list.

[coastalmarker99]

realistically that's where wilt belongs due to his 2 for 6 finals record and pre merger rings being worth basically half


and that's if you even count his rings since he was never a top 2 scorer in the finals for a championship team team he was 5th for the sixers

nobody cares that he averaged 20 rebounds. 6'5 Elgin Baylor averaged 20 rebounds one year



You can stay mad all you want that Wilt is always ranked above Kobe in all-time lists released by Espn and others.

[Hey Yo]

Boston beats them in a 7 game series imo. 4 HOF'er starters, and really good defenders in Perkins and Tony Allen. People are fooled by their regular-season W/L, but they cranked it up in the playoffs. Led the postseason in DRTG iirc.

All that.... yet you still clown James for losing to those same Celtics.

Guess we'll never see you hold that against him again.

[bison]

He is considered top 10 nearly universally: by fans, by execs, by former and current players and coaches. It’s only beta sports journalists that consider him less than top 10. Sports journalists are all slobs that couldn’t hack it playing sports growing. In Kobe they see the domineering jock who bullied and raped them in high school. So they became journalists because it allows them to feel important and get paid to talk shit on athletes from the safety of their computer screens. They’re like the Simons on this forum (except for the fact they can walk, leave the house and pursue a career).

[LAL]

Bronsexuals are too much man :oldlol:

[Axe]

He wouldn't have reached anything without guidance from the great zen master.

[Axe]

Meanwhile, his all-time ranking is also a result of having only two finals mvps despite making seven finals during his 20-year career.

[Axe]

shaq needed phil. kobe wasn't the mental midget in the family
And he's chipless without him eh? Also what happened after their dynasty split up in 2004?

[Axe]

ya his teammates needed Phil. especially since they sucked so much as individual players. they needed a team system. kobe didn't


and I give more credit to tex winter for that system.
Kobe never won anything without the triangle, no matter how boring he thinks the system is.

[2much_knowledge]

Just because espn made a list of dozens of list out there and the haters took it as writen in stone gospel

[LAmbruh]

12be, cemented consensus

[2much_knowledge]

every media list? yeah no doubt. they hate kobe.. but ask any player under the age of 50 who's better and they all say kobe

like jordan "only kobe compares to me"

shaq "kobes right there with mike"

Riley "Mike is the best of the best of the best. but you gotta put kobe right there"

Iverson "there's mike. shaq and kobe"

Chauncey Billups "most skilled ever"

wade "he's our Michael jordan"


I remember guys like Marbury, mccants, Mark Jackson and others calling kobe the goat lol


Kenyon Martin, Stephen Jackson, Matt Barnes and a bunch of others always pick him over lebron and those guys don't give a f*ck about wilt


I think 10 or 15% of rookies this past year voted kobe the goat. lmao

george Karl said Jesus couldn't guard him

there's hundreds of quotes. I don't have time to look up all of them but anyway you can have the Mark stein, Henry Abbott media polls lmao

Thats it. /thread

[LAmbruh]

Because it's an overwhelming consensus he's ranked 12th


And we must respect that
first reply slays are the best

[Axe]

Thats it. /thread
Kobe didn't have any finals mvp during his first three trips in the finals.

[2much_knowledge]

Worst he can do is 9. Hakeem as much as i respect him, its close but not enough and Big O and Jerrys resume compared to Kobe are THIN. Kobe could have cases over others too

In before people attack me, you have to consider the bulk of Hakeems success as a winner came at the expense of Jordan retiring

[scuzzy]

Kobe didn't have any finals mvp during his first three trips in the finals.
First 5 trips

Kobe was Curry before Curry :lol

[Axe]

First 5 trips

Kobe was Curry before Curry :lol
Oh yes, first five trips. Tho i have mentioned the first three since he's done that in a row three times. :oldlol:

[Rysio]

Even if you look at accolades and stats kobe is top 10 but ranking kobe is all about watching him play and if you did watch him there is no way you can find 10 players better Than him. Mostly nerds on here who don't have the eyes for the game that have kobe out of the top 3 aka nerd white boys who never touched a basketball in their life.

[coastalmarker99]

Hakeem Olajuwon in the Western Conference Finals Throughout his Career:

• 30.4 PPG
• 10.8 RPG
• 3.9 APG
• 2.0 SPG
• 4.0 BPG
• 59.5 TS%

GOAT WCF Performer?

[Phoenix]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon

Order it however you like but that would be the usual top 10. One could make a case for kobe over olajuwon.

Hakeems peak play is up there with the best ever, he was basically God in 95. Kobe never got to 'that' 2 way peak play. Was a more dynamic scorer, but the way Hakeem dispatched all of his immediate rivals on his way to rings give the context of his chips greater meaning than, say, Kobe's 1B rings next to Shaq or KD riding shotgun on the Warriors. Maybe you could give Kobe an 'overall career' edge but if I had to choose between the two to anchor my team, in most cases I'm taking Hakeem, surround him with 3 and D players and make you decide which way you want to die.

[Phoenix]

kobe has the rings to go with his all time great scoring displays



and we actually have proof of his 81 point game

Kobe had a top 10 GOAT player on his team for 3 of his rings. If Wilt had the same advantage ( let's imagine a scenario where Wilt played with Magic for a decade) you don't think he'd have more than 2 titles? Like....does fukking context matter at all?!

In all honesty though, rankings are bullshit. First, some of you act like the difference between someone ranked 5th and someone ranked 8th is some massive chasm. We're talking the best of the best here, at which point you start doing more nitpicking than anything. IMHO a tiered structure is much better. Players on the same tier of greatness. If you want to spend time pissing up a tree determining if Kobe is 8th, 9th, 10th, or 12th, you got time to waste:


Tier 1: MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Russell
Tier 2: Shaq, Magic, Bird, Wilt
Tier 3: Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe,
Tier 4: Oscar, West, Dr. J, Moses, Durant, Curry
Tier 5: Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Dirk, Garnett

Move players across the tiers at your discretion, but generally speaking I think having tiers of greatness is better than this hard line of thinking 'this' player is #4 and 'that' player is #6 etc etc

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe had a top 10 GOAT player on his team for 3 of his rings. If Wilt had the same advantage ( let's imagine a scenario where Wilt played with Magic for a decade) you don't think he'd have more than 2 titles? Like....does fukking context matter at all?!



Prime Wilt on the break getting feed by Magic would have been a sight to see.



Take a look at this video of Wilt's speed and imagine Magic passing dimes to him on the fast break

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6sQhV7ipks

[Phoenix]

Prime Wilt on the break getting feed by Magic would have been a sight to see.



Take a look at this video of Wilt's speed and imagine Magic passing dimes to him on the fast break

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6sQhV7ipks

A Wilt/Magic combo with good role players around them is winning at least 5 chips. That's a godly pairing if there ever was.

[coastalmarker99]

A Wilt/Magic combo with good role players around them is winning at least 5 chips. That's a godly pairing if there ever was.


Magic and Wilt would have gotten along so well as both loved to party and the both of them were well known for being womanizers

[coastalmarker99]

what the f*ck.

are you seriously saying kobe had more help than wilt?


heres the 4 leading scorers on wilts 1967 title team

26ppg by hall of famer hal greer
23ppg by hall of famer chet walker
20ppg by wali jones
20ppg by hall of famer billy cunningham


heres the 2 leading scorers on wilts 1972 title team

26ppg by hall of famer gail goodrich
20ppg by hall of famer jerry west



on the warriors wilt somehow found a way to lose every time with

hall of famer Paul Arizin
hall of famer guy rogers
hall of famer tom gola
hall of famer al attles


if kobe had this many hall of famers throughout his career the guy has 10 f*cking titles

Here is Wilt's "HOF" "help" in the post-season:

Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .43.1 Gola .41.2

'61 Arizin .32.5 Gola .20.6

'62 Arizin .37.5 Gola .27.1

'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out

'64 Thurmond .43.8

'65 Greer .45.5 Walker .48.0

'66 Greer .35.2 Cunningham .16.1 Walker .37.5

'67 Greer .42.9 Walker .46.7 Cunningham .37.6

'68 Greer .43.2 Walker .41.0 Cunningham broke his wrist in the first round (played 3 games)

'69 West .46.9 Baylor .38.5

'70 West .46.9 Baylor .46.6

'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in the playoffs. Goodrich .42.5

'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .37.6. Goodrich .44.5

'73 West .44.9 Goodrich .44.8

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. He Shoots .39.7 in the playoffs.

'63 Meschery (* All-Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .42.5 FG% during the season.)
'
63 Rodgers (shoots .38.7 in the regular season.
'
64 Rodgers .32.9 in post-season.
'
65 Jackson .33.8 in playoffs.

Now the next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.

59-60:
Wilt: .49.6
Team: .38.0
League: .40.2

60-61:
Wilt: .46.9
Team: .33.2
League: .40.3

61-62:
Wilt: .46.7
Team: .35.4
League: .41.1

63-64:
Wilt: .54.3
Team: .38.3
League: .42.0

64-65:
Wilt: .53.0
Team: .41.3
League: .42.9

65-66:
Wilt: .50.9
Team: .35.2
League: .44.0

66-67:
Wilt: .57.9
Team: .42.8
League: .42.4

67-68:
Wilt: .53.4
Team: .41.6
League: .44.6

68-69:
Wilt: .54.5
Team: .42.1
League: .43.1

69-70:
Wilt: .54.9
Team: .46.9
League: .45.5

70-71:
Wilt: .45.5
Team: .44.6
League: .44.5

71-72:
Wilt: .56.3
Team: .41.4
League: .43.9

72-73:
Wilt: .55.2
Team: .44.6
League: .45.1

The above is just amazing.

In Wilt's rookie season, he inherited a last-place team. And in his first six seasons, his rosters got progressively worse. Still, he single-handedly kept those teams in the playoff hunt, and almost won two titles with virtually no help.

And even in his two title seasons, his teammates didn't shoot well, either (although his '67 team shot .42.8 in a post-season that shot .424.) His second ring was even more remarkable. The '72 Lakers went 12-3 in their post-season, with Wilt's teammates collectively shooting .41.3, in a post-season that shot .43.9.

There was never one season in his career, in which his teammates collectively stepped up. And yet, he won TWO rings and lost five-game seven's to the eventual champion, four of which were by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

The problem was, the postseason, and with Chamberlain deferring more in them, his teammate's performances declined dramatically There is no better example of that, than Chamberlain's 65-66 season (which, along with his 66-67 season, were probably the two most dominating seasons, against all peers, of all-time by a centre.) During the regular season, the Sixers went 6-3 against Boston. And, in those nine games, Chamberlain averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and probably about 4 APG, and on a very educated estimate of about a .52.5 FG%.

In the '65-66 EDF's, Boston blew out Philly, 4-1. And in that series, Wilt dominated Russell in the first four games (hell, newspaper accounts claimed that Wilt, in his lowest-scoring game of that series, almost single-handedly won the game)...and in-game five, he shelled Russell with a 46-34 game.

Overall, Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg,, 3.2 APG, and on a .50.9 FG%. As for that APG...how about this...his teammates collectively shot (again, from a team with the best record in the league)... .35.2 from the field! Wilt's numbers were nearly identical, but his teammates, as they most often did, just puked all over the floor.

I could go for nearly every post-season in Wilt's career. Arizin and Gola putting up playoff series in which they shot .37.5, .32.5, and .27.1 and .20.6 respectively, in their three post-seasons with Wilt. Or West, who had played so brilliantly in the '69 Finals, shooting .37.6 in the '72 post-season (but Chamberlain overcame it, and carried LA to a title anyway.) Player-after-player just gagged.

And still, with virtually very little help, Chamberlain carried two putrid rosters, who would be even worse in the post-season, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in the history of the sport, in '62 and '65. No other all-time great has even taken so little, so far, and against such overwhelming odds, as Wilt did in those years (as well as '60, and '64.)

[Spurs m8]

oh yeah. you know whos better than magic and wilt


kobe and god.

what the f*ck are we doing here

:roll:

[Phoenix]

what the f*ck.

are you seriously saying kobe had more help than wilt?


heres the 4 leading scorers on wilts 1967 title team

26ppg by hall of famer hal greer
23ppg by hall of famer chet walker
20ppg by wali jones
20ppg by hall of famer billy cunningham


heres the 2 leading scorers on wilts 1972 title team

26ppg by hall of famer gail goodrich
20ppg by hall of famer jerry west



on the warriors wilt somehow found a way to lose every time with

hall of famer Paul Arizin
hall of famer guy rogers
hall of famer tom gola
hall of famer al attles


if kobe had this many hall of famers throughout his career the guy has 10 f*cking titles

That's not really how it works though. Some guys make the HOF by association. The 60's Celtics have a bunch of em. I imagine if some of those guys weren't playing with Bill Russell they probably aren't in the hall. None of the guys you mention are top 50 or would have the singular effect of someone like Shaq on your team. You're boiling things down to PPG and counting names on a sheet with your usual 5 year old logic.

Shaquille Oneal is a top 10 player, in any context. Kobe played with him for 8 years. Wilt didn't play with a top 20 player, West, until he was on the back nine of his career. If Kobe played with multiple HOFers alot of his individual exploits( like his scoring games that you like to throw out there) are going to naturally lessen. If Kobe is playing with 4 other HOFers in 2006, he's not dropping a 81 point game. He wouldn't need to with that much help. If you gave any top 10 GOAT multple HOF teammates, they'll win more so saying Kobe would as well isn't really saying much.

[coastalmarker99]

That's not really how it works though. Some guys make the HOF by association. The 60's Celtics have a bunch of em. I imagine if some of those guys weren't playing with Bill Russell they probably aren't in the hall. None of the guys you mention are top 50 or would have the singular effect of someone like Shaq on your team. You're boiling things down to PPG and counting names on a sheet with your usual 5 year old logic.

Shaquille Oneal is a top 10 player, in any context. Kobe played with him for 8 years. Wilt didn't play with a top 20 player, West, until he was on the back nine of his career.



West, unfortunately, was injury prone and it seriously affected the Lakers from 1969 to 1973 as if he had stayed fully healthy in that time frame then the Lakers might have won 3 rings instead of 1.




As West getting hurt cost them the title in 1973 and might have cost them another in 1971.

[Phoenix]

West, unfortunately, was injury prone and it seriously affected the Lakers from 1969 to 1973 as if he had stayed fully healthy in that time frame then the Lakers might have won 3 rings instead of 1.




As West getting hurt cost them the title in 1973 and might have cost them another in 1971.

Exactly, context matters in all these things, but try explaining that to the individual above us.

[coastalmarker99]

Exactly, context matters in all these things, but try explaining that to the individual above us.


Wilt in his prime got to only play with a top ten player in West for one full season in 68-69 at an age of 32 before he seriously hurt his knee which made him basically be a super role player from 1970 to 1973.

[Phoenix]

jerry west

NBA champion (1972)
NBA Finals MVP (1969)
14× NBA All-Star (1961–1974)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1972)
10× All-NBA First Team (1962–1967, 1970–1973)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1968, 1969)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1970–1973)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1969)
NBA scoring champion (1970)
NBA assists leader (1972)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary Team
No. 44 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1959)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1959, 1960)
Third-team All-American – AP, UPI (1958)
2× SoCon Player of the Year (1959, 1960)
No. 44 retired by West Virginia Mountaineers
Presidential Medal of Freedom (2019)


gail goodrich

NBA champion (1972)
leading scorer of 1972 finals
5× NBA All-Star (1969, 1972–1975)
All-NBA First Team (1974)
No. 25 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
2× NCAA champion (1964, 1965)
Helms Foundation Player of the Year (1965)
Consensus first-team All-American (1965)
2× First-team All-AAWU (1964, 1965)
No. 25 retired by UCLA Bruins
career 20ppg


Hal Greer

NBA champion (1967)
leading scorer of 1967 title
10× NBA All-Star (1961–1970)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1968)
7× All-NBA Second Team (1963–1969)
No. 15 retired by Philadelphia 76ers
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
First-team All-MAC (1958)
No. 16 retired by Marshall Thundering Herd
Career statistics
Points 21,586 (19.2 ppg)
Rebounds 5,665 (5.0 rpg)
Assists 4,540 (4.0 apg)



Chet Walker

NBA champion (1967)
7× NBA All-Star (1964, 1966, 1967, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1963)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1961, 1962)
Second-team All-American – AP, NABC, UPI (1960)
3× First-team All-MVC (1960–1962)
No. 31 retired by Bradley Braves
Career statistics
Points 18,831 (18.2 ppg)
Rebounds 7,314 (7.1 rpg)
Assists 2,126 (2.1 apg)


billy cunningham

NBA champion (1967)
4× NBA All-Star (1969–1972)
3× All-NBA First Team (1969–1971)
All-NBA Second Team (1972)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1966)
ABA MVP (1973)
All-ABA First Team (1973)
ABA All-Star (1973)
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
ABA All-Time Team
No. 32 retired by Philadelphia 76ers
First-team All-American – USBWA (1964)
Second-team All-American – NABC, UPI (1965)
ACC Player of the Year (1965)
3× First-team All-ACC (1963–1965)
As coach:

NBA champion (1983)
4× NBA All-Star Game head coach (1978, 1980, 1981, 1983)
Career ABA and NBA playing statistics
Points 16,310 (21.2 ppg)
Rebounds 7,981 (10.4 rpg)
Assists 3,305 (4.3 apg)


Paul Arizin

NBA champion (1956)
10× NBA All-Star (1951, 1952, 1955–1962)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1952)
3× All-NBA First Team (1952, 1956, 1957)
All-NBA Second Team (1959)
2x NBA scoring champion (1952, 1957)
NBA 25th Anniversary Team
NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
EBA Most Valuable Player (1963)
EBA champion (1964)
Helms Foundation Player of the Year (1950)
Sporting News Player of the Year (1950)
Consensus first-team All-American (1950)
NCAA season scoring leader (1950)
No. 11 retired by Villanova Wildcats
Career statistics
Points 16,266 (22.8 ppg)
Rebounds 6,129 (8.6 rpg)
Assists 1,665 (2.3 apg)




pretty sure all these guys are legit hall of famers

Not all HOFers are equal, even if they're legit. I shouldn't need to explain this, but this is ISH and I'm talking at you. There are levels to this and you know exactly what I mean.

In any case, if you gave Wilt Magic for a decade, do you think he's winning the same amount of titles or more? How many chips do you think Kobe wins between 2000 and 2002 if you removed Shaq and put a lesser player in his place?

[Phoenix]

are you saying wilt needs another wilt to win

of course nobody he plays with is like shaq or himself. that isn't what his teams needed. they needed THOSE GUYS HE PLAYED WITH

No, that's not what I'm saying. I said if you gave Wilt another legit, all time top ten level player, do you think he wins more titles? I don't care about you namedropping 'HOFers', I'm talking legit, GOAT level shit here. If you took Shaq off the Lakers is Kobe between 2000 and 2002 winning chips. It's not a hard question to answer and no, you're not going to spin my question into the above strawman bullshit.

[coastalmarker99]

are you saying wilt needs another wilt to win

of course nobody he plays with is like shaq or himself. that isn't what his teams needed. they needed THOSE GUYS HE PLAYED WITH

and he should have won more... his teams weren't as outmatched by the celtics as people think

Wilt's teams were usually outmatched against the Celtics every single year.


An example is in game one of the 1965 ECF against a 62-18 Celtic team that was at its peak in their dynasty run.



Wilt destroyed Russell in that game 1.

He scored 33 points and blocked 11 shots while grabbing 31 rebounds on 13-25 FG/FGA or 63 TS while Russell had 16 points and 32 rebounds on 7-22 shooting. Wilt's teammates? They collectively shot...get this... 20-85 from the field, or .23.5!

Then in a Game 2 demolition job of Bill Russell. Chamberlain's stat line was absolutely insane in a 109-103 win...30 points, 39 rebounds, 8 assists, 12-19 from the field, 6 of 9 from the free-throw line, and he had 8 blocked shots while Russell had 12 points and 16 rebounds on 5-12 shooting.



In Game 7 of the series, Wilt scored 30 points, grabbed 32 rebounds blocked 8 shots and shot 12-15 from the field, and he also scored the last 10 points of the game to bring the 76ers within 1 point of the heavily favoured Celtics.



Unfortunately, Havlicek stole Greer's inbounds pass and the rest is history.

That entire 1965 ECF playoff series was Chamberlain basically single-handedly carrying that last-place roster to a game seven, two-point loss against a team that went 62 -18 and had 7 hall of famers on it along with a goat coach in RED.



Again...swap the rosters between the two players and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings as the great John Wooden said.

Here is a clip of game 1 of the 1965 ECF if you want to see Wilt performing against Russell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2twQv3DWmY

[Phoenix]

and he should have won more... his teams weren't as outmatched by the celtics as people think

So what happens if you swap the two and Russell is on the Sixers? There are a few older posters around here who could probably answer that question better than either of us.

[coastalmarker99]

So what happens if you swap the two and Russell is on the Sixers?



I will tell you what happens


Wilt wins every title from 1965 to 1968 and it is not even close.


It took Wilt averaging 21.6 points 32.0 rebounds and 10.0 assists plus 12 blocks a game on 55 percent shooting while holding Russell to 11 points and 23.4 rebounds along with 6.0 assists on 35 percent shooting for the 76ers to beat the Celtics who had seven hall of famers on their squad in 1967.



That is the biggest ass-kicking that a top ten player has given to another top ten player ever and yet despite that the Celtics still had a great chance of winning games 2 and 5 series in that series.

[coastalmarker99]

So what happens if you swap the two and Russell is on the Sixers? There are a few older posters around here who could probably answer that question better than either of us.

The 1969 76ers got utterly manhandled by an old Celtics team once Wilt left and they were only a fluke game 4 win from being swept despite adding an All-star in Archie Clark.



That series is clear proof of just how impactful Wilt was to that team.


Hal Greer averaged 16 points a game on 32 percent shooting in that series a 10 point decrease from his 1968 ECF stats and to think that was Wilt's second-best player in the 67 playoffs.


Billy C averaged 24 PPG on 41 percent shooting through most of the stats he put up were in garbage time when the game was clearly over.


Walker only averaged 13 points per game which was a 7 point decrease from his 1968 ECF scoring average through to his credit he shot over 50 percent this time around instead of 40 percent.

Wally jones only averaged 6.4 PPG which was a 7 point decrease from his 1968 ECF scoring average and it is made worse than his field goal percentage also went down by over 6 percent.

[Phoenix]

@coastalmarker99, I think you killed Kenny. :oldlol:

[coastalmarker99]

@coastalmarker99, I think you killed Kenny. :oldlol:


Anyone that knows Basketball.


Knows that had Wilt been on Russell's teams Wilt would be the undisputed GOAT even to this day with 10+ titles and 100+ unbreakable records to his name.



Wilt is basically a bigger, faster, and stronger Lebron James at 7'1". Wilt would have had more assists for his career with the Celtics but his teammates on the Warriors and 76ers were much worse on offence.



So he basically took the brunt of that load because his capability gave his teams the best shot of winning as he was perfectly capable of producing a one-man army offence for 48+ minutes per game.



A perfect example of this is Wilt's 1963-1964 season.


As No other all-time great as had a weaker supporting cast around him in the NBA Finals than '64 Wilt.

The Warriors finished 3rd in SRS with a rookie Nate Thurmond and players like Wayne Hightower, Tom Meschery, and Guy Rodgers leading in shots. Wilt had a .325 WS/48 in the regular season (3rd all-time), and his .323 WS/48 playoff run is 4th all-time in the Shot Clock Era.

In the WDF, with his team playing poorly, Wilt put up 38.6 PPG on a +7.8 rTS%.

In the Finals, he finished with 29.2 PPG on a +2.4 rTS% against the greatest defence of all-time. Only one other player (Tom Meschery) shot above 35 FG% in that series.

This year Kevin Durant had a spectacular performance against the Bucks--he played heavy minutes while his team was injured and/or playing poorly. This was basically Wilt Chamberlain every postseason before '67, and Wilt was doing it against far superior competition than the '21 Milwaukee Bucks.

The mixture of scoring, passing, rebounding, and defence that Wilt provides is so impactful to a team and it's why he is rated higher all-time than Kobe by a landslide.

[coastalmarker99]

Kenny brags a lot on this forum about Kobe being the toughest basketball player ever.


But one could seriously argue that Wilt was the toughest basketball player who ever lived.



As examples of Wilt's toughness include Chamberlain being elbowed in the face during the 1964-1965 season, which resulted in 2 of his teeth being knocked back inside his gums.


Incredibly, Wilt missed only 1 game, and he proceeded to play and play well while wearing a protective face mask.


Then in the 1968 playoffs, Wilt played with a tear of the calf muscle in his right leg, a strain in his right thigh and an injured right toe against the Celtics.


Which earned Russell's praise as Russell said after the series had ended that a lesser man with Wilt's injuries wouldn't have even played in that 1968 ECF series.




Also in the 12th game of the 1969-1970 season, Wilt tore his patella tendon, and it was feared that he would never be the same again.




Wilt proceeded to do something that no other NBA player has ever done, and that is to come back to play in the same season after suffering a severe knee injury.


Not only did Chamberlain come back to play in the last 3 games of the regular season but he also went on to have a dominant post-season. In 18 playoff games, Wilt averaged 22.1 points, 22.2 rebounds, and 4.5 assists.



Wilt then two years later as a 35-year-old man with bad knees posted (24/29/8/8) in game 5 of the 1972 finals with a broken hand to win LA its first title in LA and his second finals Mvp award.

[coastalmarker99]

Most Runner Up MVP Finishes in NBA History:
T1. LeBron James - 4
T1. Larry Bird - 4
T1. Jerry West - 4
T2. Kevin Durant - 3
T2. James Harden - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3


Kobe is nowhere in sight.



Only Players in NBA History to Receive 80% of All 1st-place MVP Votes Over a Two-Year Span:


•LeBron James: 2009-2010, 2012-2013
•Larry Bird: 1984-1985, 1985-1986
•Michael Jordan: 1991-1992
•Stephen Curry: 2015-2016
•Giannis Antetokounmpo: 2019-20

Kobe is nowhere in sight


Most Consecutive Top 5 MVP Finishes in NBA History:
1. LeBron James - 14 Seasons
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 12 Seasons
3. Bill Russell - 10 Seasons
T4. Magic Johnson - 9 Seasons
T4. Larry Bird - 9 Seasons


Kobe is nowhere in sight



Most MVPs in NBA History:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6 MVPs
T2. Michael Jordan - 5 MVPs
T2. Bill Russell - 5 MVPs
T4. LeBron James - 4 MVPs
T4. Wilt Chamberlain - 4 MVPs



Kobe once again nowhere in sight.


But good news for Kobe fans such as Kenny when it comes to

Most All-Star Game MVPs in NBA History:
T1. Kobe Bryant - 4
T1. Bob Pettit - 4
T2. LeBron James - 3
T2. Shaquille O’Neal - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3
T2. Oscar Robertson - 3


Kobe is number one yay.

[8Ball]

Most Runner Up MVP Finishes in NBA History:
T1. LeBron James - 4
T1. Larry Bird - 4
T1. Jerry West - 4
T2. Kevin Durant - 3
T2. James Harden - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3


Kobe is nowhere in sight.



Only Players in NBA History to Receive 80% of All 1st-place MVP Votes Over a Two-Year Span:


•LeBron James: 2009-2010, 2012-2013
•Larry Bird: 1984-1985, 1985-1986
•Michael Jordan: 1991-1992
•Stephen Curry: 2015-2016
•Giannis Antetokounmpo: 2019-20

Kobe is nowhere in sight


Most Consecutive Top 5 MVP Finishes in NBA History:
1. LeBron James - 14 Seasons
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 12 Seasons
3. Bill Russell - 10 Seasons
T4. Magic Johnson - 9 Seasons
T4. Larry Bird - 9 Seasons


Kobe is nowhere in sight



Most MVPs in NBA History:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6 MVPs
T2. Michael Jordan - 5 MVPs
T2. Bill Russell - 5 MVPs
T4. LeBron James - 4 MVPs
T4. Wilt Chamberlain - 4 MVPs



Kobe once again nowhere in sight.


But good news for Kobe fans such as Kenny when it comes to

Most All-Star Game MVPs in NBA History:
T1. Kobe Bryant - 4
T1. Bob Pettit - 4
T2. LeBron James - 3
T2. Shaquille O’Neal - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3
T2. Oscar Robertson - 3


Kobe is number one yay.

Ouch.

Kenneth about to have another meltdown.

[Manny98]

I have Kobe in the top 10

1. Russell
2. Jordan
3. Lebron
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem

[LAL]

Most Runner Up MVP Finishes in NBA History:
T1. LeBron James - 4
T1. Larry Bird - 4
T1. Jerry West - 4
T2. Kevin Durant - 3
T2. James Harden - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3


Kobe is nowhere in sight.



Only Players in NBA History to Receive 80% of All 1st-place MVP Votes Over a Two-Year Span:


•LeBron James: 2009-2010, 2012-2013
•Larry Bird: 1984-1985, 1985-1986
•Michael Jordan: 1991-1992
•Stephen Curry: 2015-2016
•Giannis Antetokounmpo: 2019-20

Kobe is nowhere in sight


Most Consecutive Top 5 MVP Finishes in NBA History:
1. LeBron James - 14 Seasons
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 12 Seasons
3. Bill Russell - 10 Seasons
T4. Magic Johnson - 9 Seasons
T4. Larry Bird - 9 Seasons


Kobe is nowhere in sight



Most MVPs in NBA History:
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6 MVPs
T2. Michael Jordan - 5 MVPs
T2. Bill Russell - 5 MVPs
T4. LeBron James - 4 MVPs
T4. Wilt Chamberlain - 4 MVPs



Kobe once again nowhere in sight.


But good news for Kobe fans such as Kenny when it comes to

Most All-Star Game MVPs in NBA History:
T1. Kobe Bryant - 4
T1. Bob Pettit - 4
T2. LeBron James - 3
T2. Shaquille OÂ’Neal - 3
T2. Michael Jordan - 3
T2. Oscar Robertson - 3


Kobe is number one yay.

Westbrook type stats, superteams, eastern conference, media awards.

He was never better than Kobe, those regular season eastern conference wins combined with those Westbrook/Doncic type stats in his bron system instead of a triangle system out West, it's the perfect easy winning formula for MVP, ask steve nash & harden.. or Lebron in last years finals. Kobe was more of a team player believe it or not, he had to, Lebron knows the formula to invidual awards, Kobe to winning.

Kobe was never carried by superteams or 30ppg sidekicks and last minute saving rings. All you bronstans have is CaRriEd In ThE fInAlS.

If Kobe & Westbrook were teammates in a finals, there's a bigger chance Westbrook wins Fmvp averaging 4 points less and 4 rebounds and 4 assists more because it looks better on paper.

Dominated the **** out of the 2000 decade. 5 rings, 7 finals, all in 10 prime healthy years.

How many healthy prime seasons did lebron have playing in his Bron system? 20 years? 4 rings?

Media awards tho.

Bronstans, nobody cares about your rankings lol :oldlol:

[RRR3]

Westbrook type stats, superteams, eastern conference, media awards.

He was never better than Kobe, those regular season eastern conference wins combined with those Westbrook/Doncic type stats in his bron system instead of a triangle system out West, it's the perfect easy winning formula for MVP, ask steve nash & harden.. or Lebron in last years finals. Kobe was more of a team player believe it or not, he had to, Lebron knows the formula to invidual awards, Kobe to winning.

Kobe was never carried by superteams or 30ppg sidekicks and last minute saving rings. All you bronstans have is CaRriEd In ThE fInAlS.

If Kobe & Westbrook were teammates in a finals, there's a bigger chance Westbrook wins Fmvp averaging 4 points less and 4 rebounds and 4 assists more because it looks better on paper.

Dominated the **** out of the 2000 decade. 5 rings, 7 finals, all in 10 prime healthy years.

How many healthy prime seasons did lebron have playing in his Bron system? 20 years? 4 rings?

Media awards tho.

Bronstans, nobody cares about your rankings lol :oldlol:
You were literally in tears typing this :roll:



How does it feel to know you spent decades hating on someone who ended up universally seen as better than your loverboy?


You picked the wrong horse, chief.

[LAL]

You were literally in tears typing this :roll:



How does it feel to know you spent decades hating on someone who ended up universally seen as better than your loverboy?


You picked the wrong horse, chief.

That's not true tranny. Kobe is a bronstans biggest fear.

Stats tho

[coastalmarker99]

Westbrook type stats, superteams, eastern conference, media awards.

He was never better than Kobe, those regular season eastern conference wins combined with those Westbrook/Doncic type stats in his bron system instead of a triangle system out West, it's the perfect easy winning formula for MVP, ask steve nash & harden.. or Lebron in last years finals. Kobe was more of a team player believe it or not, he had to, Lebron knows the formula to invidual awards, Kobe to winning.

Kobe was never carried by superteams or 30ppg sidekicks and last minute saving rings. All you bronstans have is CaRriEd In ThE fInAlS.

If Kobe & Westbrook were teammates in a finals, there's a bigger chance Westbrook wins Fmvp averaging 4 points less and 4 rebounds and 4 assists more because it looks better on paper.

Dominated the **** out of the 2000 decade. 5 rings, 7 finals, all in 10 prime healthy years.

How many healthy prime seasons did lebron have playing in his Bron system? 20 years? 4 rings?

Media awards tho.

Bronstans, nobody cares about your rankings lol :oldlol:


What a meltdown :roll:


Hell Kobe was getting carried as the sidekick in three of his titles and he couldn't even average over 15 points per game in one of those finals despite Shaq being double and triple-teamed which basically left him wide open :lol

[LAL]

I've noticed how shannon sharpe doesn't even believe 10% of what he says, bet he takes a long cold shower after work.

Receiving gifts and shit.. Pathetic.

[LAL]

What a meltdown :roll:

Wdym, you posted maybe 50 times here, with longer posts?

[coastalmarker99]

Wdym, you posted maybe 50 times here, with longer posts?


Nothing you said in that post made any sense at all.



As Lebron has double the rings as the man compared to Kobe plus he also has 3 more regular-season Mvps therefore he is more of a winner than Kobe is.

[LAL]

What a meltdown :roll:


Hell Kobe was getting carried as the sidekick in three of his titles and he couldn't even average over 15 points per game in one of those finals despite Shaq being double and triple-teamed which basically left him wide open :lol

Kobe on 1 leg in 2000 > Lebron vs spurs 2007.

Shaq carried Kobe vs Smits & MacCulloch. Kobe in the Western Playoffs. Clutch unlike Shaq. Still dropped crazy numbers within a strict system and held back. Imagine him dribbling as much lebron.

Still 1 all star teammate. 5/7

[RRR3]

What a meltdown :roll:


Hell Kobe was getting carried as the sidekick in three of his titles and he couldn't even average over 15 points per game in one of those finals despite Shaq being double and triple-teamed which basically left him wide open :lol
Not to mention the 2002 ring is confirmed as being gifted. It’s literally been confirmed the Kings were cheated out of winning that series but somehow Kobe gets full credit for that ring :lol


He actually has less legitimate rings as a superstar than LeBron lmao (wasn’t a superstar in 2000)

[LAL]

Nothing you said in that post made any sense at all.



As Lebron has double the rings as the man compared to Kobe plus he also has 3 more regular-season Mvps therefore he is more of a winner than Kobe is.

Having more media awards doesn't make him more of a winner. He's very much a loser despite the weak conference and creating superteams.

[paksat]

because this site is owned by lebronze james

if you haven't noticed

[tpols]

Kobe was considered top 5 all time in 2010. Troll thread.

[tpols]

Nothing you said in that post made any sense at all.



As Lebron has double the rings as the man compared to Kobe plus he also has 3 more regular-season Mvps therefore he is more of a winner than Kobe is.

You're trolling. Lebron was outscored by AD in the playoffs but you count that, yet when Kobe had better advanced stats than peak shaq in 2001 you don't count that. You're an old troll.

[coastalmarker99]

You're trolling. Lebron was outscored by AD in the playoffs but you count that, yet when Kobe had better advanced stats than peak shaq in 2001 you don't count that. You're an old troll.


By only 3 points it was 580 to 583 in AD's favour while Lebron lead the 2020 playoffs in total assists total rebounds and he was also second in total points scored.

[LAL]

By only 3 points it was 580 to 583 in AD's favour while Lebron lead the 2020 playoffs in total assists total rebounds and he was also second in total points scored.

:roll:

[tpols]

So as you can see the "reason" if any, is because of disingenuous takes and blatant trolling on the most skilled basketball player of all time. Kobes post 2006 resume alone matches Hakeems whole career. People freaked out when he got Pau, who had never made an All NBA team or won a playoff game prior, yet people didn't even count Kevin Love who was All NBA with the timberwolves. It just goes to show you the expectations. Lebron produces better individually but hijacks the system all for himself thus lowering the teams ceiling by reducing star teammates. Kobe OTOH enhances teammates... Pau and Odom got way better. Bosh, Wade, Love, Ingram, Hughes, and Jamison got way worse. Kyrie and AD are the only stars he's been able to get along with on court. Mfer just cost Dennis Schroeder at least 50 mil.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe on 1 leg in 2000 > Lebron vs spurs 2007.

Shaq carried Kobe vs Smits & MacCulloch. Kobe in the Western Playoffs. Clutch unlike Shaq. Still dropped crazy numbers within a strict system and held back. Imagine him dribbling as much lebron.

Still 1 all star teammate. 5/7

Typical Kobe Kid. Always wants to talk about what happen before the Finals, cause they know he sucked in the majority of the Finals he played.

[8Ball]

What a meltdown :roll:


Hell Kobe was getting carried as the sidekick in three of his titles and he couldn't even average over 15 points per game in one of those finals despite Shaq being double and triple-teamed which basically left him wide open :lol


I always thought LeBron 2013 was a super carry job, but Shaq in 2000 did all the heavy lifting with no 2nd option in the finals.

[HoopsNY]

Do you think the 2010 Celtics are even close to them or do you have the '95 Magic as clearly better? And who do you think was better between the '95 Spurs & 2010 Suns?

That's a great question. I'd have to do a deep dive but judging by the fact that the 1995 Magic had a combo of Shaq+Penny, then I'd go with the '95 Magic. As for the '95 Spurs and the 2010 Suns, then it's hard to not go with SA as they were a 62 win team with the MVP. And they were both an elite offense and defense while the Suns were just an elite offense and an atrocious defense.

[HoopsNY]

Worst he can do is 9. Hakeem as much as i respect him, its close but not enough and Big O and Jerrys resume compared to Kobe are THIN. Kobe could have cases over others too

In before people attack me, you have to consider the bulk of Hakeems success as a winner came at the expense of Jordan retiring

Which doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since no one is saying Hakeem ranks above MJ. But let me ask you this, if you swap Otis Thorpe, Sleepy Floyd, or Clyde for prime Pippen for the majority of Hakeem's tenure, what's his success looking like during the 90s?

MJ probably has 0 rings while Hakeem probably wins 3-4.

[Hey Yo]

I always thought LeBron 2013 was a super carry job, but Shaq in 2000 did all the heavy lifting with no 2nd option in the finals.

Kobe tried to give the title away by shooting a combined 12-47 in games 5 and 6.

[deathawaitu]

Just ignore the trolls on the forums.

They are the minority of the fan base.

You go outside and ask any casual fan

Majority will say Kobe is top 8 and higher than Lebron.

General consensus in the real world has always been

Mj>Kobe>Lebron

[8Ball]

Just ignore the trolls on the forums.

They are the minority of the fan base.

You go outside and ask any casual fan

Majority will say Kobe is top 8 and higher than Lebron.

General consensus in the real world has always been

Mj>Kobe>Lebron


Which "real world" are you talking about?


There is nobody in the real world that says Kobe > LeBron besides forum trolls and Kobe tards hidden in dark caves.


Every one in the real world talks about Jordan vs LeBron. Kobe isn't even on the menu.

[SouBeachTalents]

Westbrook type stats, superteams, eastern conference, media awards.

He was never better than Kobe, those regular season eastern conference wins combined with those Westbrook/Doncic type stats in his bron system instead of a triangle system out West, it's the perfect easy winning formula for MVP, ask steve nash & harden.. or Lebron in last years finals. Kobe was more of a team player believe it or not, he had to, Lebron knows the formula to invidual awards, Kobe to winning.

Kobe was never carried by superteams or 30ppg sidekicks and last minute saving rings. All you bronstans have is CaRriEd In ThE fInAlS.

If Kobe & Westbrook were teammates in a finals, there's a bigger chance Westbrook wins Fmvp averaging 4 points less and 4 rebounds and 4 assists more because it looks better on paper.

Dominated the **** out of the 2000 decade. 5 rings, 7 finals, all in 10 prime healthy years.

How many healthy prime seasons did lebron have playing in his Bron system? 20 years? 4 rings?

Media awards tho.

Bronstans, nobody cares about your rankings lol :oldlol:
You're right, he was carried by 40 ppg first options instead

[dreamshake]

Just ignore the trolls on the forums.

They are the minority of the fan base.

You go outside and ask any casual fan

Majority will say Kobe is top 8 and higher than Lebron.

General consensus in the real world has always been

Mj>Kobe>Lebron

I can confirm this. You often hear Kobe when players shoot a shot on the playgrounds. You never hear anyone say LeBron. That alone should tell you who’s considered better and more respected.

[HoopsNY]

The Kobe vs LeBron debate is a real debate. NBA players largely vote for Kobe over LeBron, particularly those who played with and against both guys.

Having said that, I do think LeBron > Kobe as LeBron's playoffs and finals performances just cannot be ignored when compared to Kobe's. LeBron is one of the greatest playoff/finals performers ever whereas Kobe has had quite a number of sub-par performances.

[Gohan]

That's fcking ridiculous :lol Kobe's left outside the top 10 on several legitimate lists. He's fringe top 10, he'll be in some top 10's, but it's def not a consensus

JUST DONT GET ALL sarcastic WHEN SOMEONE LEAVES LEBRON OUT OF TOP 5 LISTS

[Thenameless]

I'm a long time Laker fan, and Kobe is outside my top 10. He just wasn't good enough. If you really watch the game the right way and study your basketball history, it's not hard to name 10 or more players that are better.

If we're talking specifics, his most glaring weakness is his lack of efficiency. He takes a lot of shots, and a lot of them are low percentage shots that miss and ultimately hurt his team's chances of winning.

I'm thankful for his service as one of the Laker greats, but I'm objective enough to know that there are still a dozen or so better players in NBA history.

[kawhileonard2]

That's fcking ridiculous :lol Kobe's left outside the top 10 on several legitimate lists. He's fringe top 10, he'll be in some top 10's, but it's def not a consensus

How not?

[kawhileonard2]

Which doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things since no one is saying Hakeem ranks above MJ. But let me ask you this, if you swap Otis Thorpe, Sleepy Floyd, or Clyde for prime Pippen for the majority of Hakeem's tenure, what's his success looking like during the 90s?

MJ probably has 0 rings while Hakeem probably wins 3-4.

Except MJ didn't get prime Pippen while at least Hakeem had prime Sampson up front.

[deathawaitu]

Which "real world" are you talking about?


There is nobody in the real world that says Kobe > LeBron besides forum trolls and Kobe tards hidden in dark caves.


Every one in the real world talks about Jordan vs LeBron. Kobe isn't even on the menu.

Go back and hide in your cave little boy

No one in real world or on a basket court cares about Lebron lol

But I’ll teach a low IQ kid and your alts a lesson though

1) All Asian countries. For example China the general consensus is Either MJ or Kobe. Lebron? Who that ******?

2) the general consensus in USA is still Kobe>Lebron. Lebron has lost every single poll vs Kobe on every major website or network

So sit the **** down boy in your natural position and suck your hero’s tiny dick

In conclusion: over 1 billion people have Kobe > Lebron in the real world

Where as there are at best 10million people that thinks Lebron is better lol

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Tier 0
-Jordan
-Wilt

Tier 1
-Kareem

Tier 2
-Bird
-Hakeem
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Shaq
-Magic
-LeBron
-Durant
-West

Tier 3
-Erving
-Barkley
-Robinson
-Russell
-Moses
-Oscar
-Isiah
-Malone
-Dirk
-Iverson
-Curry
-Wade
-Garnett

[SATAN]

You go outside and ask any casual fan



:facepalm

Really? You're gonna just side with the opinions of casuals? Huh? :biggums:

The only person I know who had Kobe above LeBron rarely watches/watched basketball at all.

[LAL]

I'm a long time Laker fan, and Kobe is outside my top 10. He just wasn't good enough. If you really watch the game the right way and study your basketball history, it's not hard to name 10 or more players that are better.

If we're talking specifics, his most glaring weakness is his lack of efficiency. He takes a lot of shots, and a lot of them are low percentage shots that miss and ultimately hurt his team's chances of winning.

I'm thankful for his service as one of the Laker greats, but I'm objective enough to know that there are still a dozen or so better players in NBA history.

:roll:

[RRR3]

Tier 0
-Jordan
-Wilt

Tier 1
-Kareem

Tier 2
-Bird
-Hakeem
-Kobe
-Duncan
-Shaq
-Magic
-LeBron
-Durant
-West

Tier 3
-Erving
-Barkley
-Robinson
-Russell
-Moses
-Oscar
-Isiah
-Malone
-Dirk
-Iverson
-Curry
-Wade
-Garnett
Yikes imagine being this dumb.

[LukeWalton]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Lebron
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon

Order it however you like but that would be the usual top 10. One could make a case for kobe over olajuwon.

yep. that right thar

if you exclude everything before the 1980s then you get

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Olajuwon
LeBron
Curry will likely make the top 10
KD
Kobe

[elementally morale]

Had he been a little less competitive Kobe would've had more success. Even more.

His biggest shortcoming was him being as or more competitive than Jordan with obviously more limitations athletically and hand-wise. His competitive spirit made him very enjoyable but also led to tons of unmakeable shots. He made a lot... still he missed a lot more of those. Good for highlights but not good enough. Had ha taken 2-3 less of thsose shots per game and you'd see his FG% above 50%.

He also could have only 3 rings. (2000, 2001 and 2009). Against the Kings and the Celtics some luck was involved. On the other hand... with a few better decisions he could've had 7 rings, too.

Borderline top 10 sounds about right. When he was on... no one has seen anything better on offense. Still... I saw better players and more accomplished ones, too.


Being top 10 or so is no insult. Out of tens or internationally speaking hundreds of thousands of players... it's great. And he can be your favorite player regardless. Just as your favorite movie is not the one that made the most revenue your personal choice is what matters. Kobe was (along with Nash) my favorite player for like a decade and a half. Saw most of his games and all his championship runs. He was a prick but an amusing prick. Some great memories.

He had the chance and the drive to become top 3 or at worst top 5 all time. He didn't quite get there. It's okay. He was entertaining and an iconis figure whose legacy will last for a very long time. Would've been great off the court in the long run, too. Legend status cemented via some unfortunate events.

Realistically I cant have him higher than #7-8. Tier 3. Not lower than #13-15. So if someone says #12... so be it. It's no shame. Borderline top 10 for me. And#1 as far as entertaining memories go.

[dreamshake]

Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
Kobe
Magic
Shaq
Durant
Hakeem

[3ba11]

Kobe is one of the rare stars to win rings without 1b's or super-teams, and he has 2 like that

[Gohan]

yikes imagine being this dumb.

agreed iverson deserves to be in tier 2

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

What's the argument for Russell over Kobe?He was a great defensive player but his team was always loaded with more capable scorers.Kobe started his career as a bench player and then worked his way up to the starting lineup.He was Shaq's sidekick and then eventually it became 1A 1B,lot of those playoff series Kobe was the one carrying the Lakers.Once Shaq left L.A. Kobe had to start over from scratch,he went to the finals in 08 and then won 2 championships as the #1 guy.

[Axe]

What's the argument for Russell over Kobe?He was a great defensive player but his team was always loaded with more capable scorers.Kobe started his career as a bench player and then worked his way up to the starting lineup.He was Shaq's sidekick and then eventually it became 1A 1B,lot of those playoff series Kobe was the one carrying the Lakers.Once Shaq left L.A. Kobe had to start over from scratch,he went to the finals in 08 and then won 2 championships as the #1 guy.
Wow, so it's ppg all over again. :(

[Soundwave]

Kobe is better than Russell (played in a league with little strategy/skill, few 7 footers, and was on the most loaded squad that could gang up on Wilt, was sometimes the no.4 option on offence) and on par with Magic and Bird (overrated a bit because they "saved the league" for marketing purposes).

Honestly he may well be better than Magic.

Ditto for Hakeem ... Hakeem had a great 2 year peak.

If you give a 26 year old Kobe Wade and Bosh to play with, I think he wins minimum 2 championships, maybe 3.

[LAL]

Had he been a little less competitive Kobe would've had more success. Even more.

His biggest shortcoming was him being as or more competitive than Jordan with obviously more limitations athletically and hand-wise. His competitive spirit made him very enjoyable but also led to tons of unmakeable shots. He made a lot... still he missed a lot more of those. Good for highlights but not good enough. Had ha taken 2-3 less of thsose shots per game and you'd see his FG% above 50%.

He also could have only 3 rings. (2000, 2001 and 2009). Against the Kings and the Celtics some luck was involved. On the other hand... with a few better decisions he could've had 7 rings, too.

Borderline top 10 sounds about right. When he was on... no one has seen anything better on offense. Still... I saw better players and more accomplished ones, too.


Being top 10 or so is no insult. Out of tens or internationally speaking hundreds of thousands of players... it's great. And he can be your favorite player regardless. Just as your favorite movie is not the one that made the most revenue your personal choice is what matters. Kobe was (along with Nash) my favorite player for like a decade and a half. Saw most of his games and all his championship runs. He was a prick but an amusing prick. Some great memories.

He had the chance and the drive to become top 3 or at worst top 5 all time. He didn't quite get there. It's okay. He was entertaining and an iconis figure whose legacy will last for a very long time. Would've been great off the court in the long run, too. Legend status cemented via some unfortunate events.

Realistically I cant have him higher than #7-8. Tier 3. Not lower than #13-15. So if someone says #12... so be it. It's no shame. Borderline top 10 for me. And#1 as far as entertaining memories go.

Weirdo

[elementally morale]

Weirdo

Honesty is the word you are looking for. A player can be your favorite and if you like him enough it doesn't matter much where he ranks by some fans on a message board. Kobe's impact was much greater than his all-time ranking. He was the most influential player for a generation. His legend will only grow. I saw Bird, Magic, Jordan, etc. They were all better. Duncan, Shaq... you can have a discussion. LeBron is greater than Kobe as far as all-time accolades are concerned, too. As a player... well, I dislike LeBron ball but I can't say it wasn't effective. That's 6 players. Kareem, Wilt and Russell you cannot discredit. Way too much resumé. That's 9 players 6-7 of which were arguably better than Kobe. Peak Shaq was, too. So I say borderline top10 is about right. Nothing wrong with that. His influence is top 5 all time. At least. And he will remain in my top 5 favorite players forever. As for memories and direct influence on my life, he is no.1.

[LAmbruh]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=314&dateline=1621819865

[Stanley Kobrick]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/image.php?u=314&dateline=1621819865

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_K6971WmAs

[LAL]

Honesty is the word you are looking for. A player can be your favorite and if you like him enough it doesn't matter much where he ranks by some fans on a message board. Kobe's impact was much greater than his all-time ranking. He was the most influential player for a generation. His legend will only grow. I saw Bird, Magic, Jordan, etc. They were all better. Duncan, Shaq... you can have a discussion. LeBron is greater than Kobe as far as all-time accolades are concerned, too. As a player... well, I dislike LeBron ball but I can't say it wasn't effective. That's 6 players. Kareem, Wilt and Russell you cannot discredit. Way too much resumé. That's 9 players 6-7 of which were arguably better than Kobe. Peak Shaq was, too. So I say borderline top10 is about right. Nothing wrong with that. His influence is top 5 all time. At least. And he will remain in my top 5 favorite players forever. As for memories and direct influence on my life, he is no.1.

So Kobe could've won more if he took less shots? What about Lebron? Why only 4 rings in 20 healthy years? What about his weaknesses, turnovers, no skills, quitting, superteams, eastern conference? Or triple doubles and pounding the ball all game beats everything? Analizing Kobe's flaws lol.. still can't find them or make sense.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Anyone with a legitimate argument for why Russell should be in the top 10 instead of Kobe?

[elementally morale]

So Kobe could've won more if he took less shots? What about Lebron? Why only 4 rings in 20 healthy years? What about his weaknesses, turnovers, no skills, quitting, superteams, eastern conference? Or triple doubles and pounding the ball all game beats everything? Analizing Kobe's flaws lol.. still can't find them or make sense.

Yes, Kobe could've won more if he took less DUMB shots. He was by far the best bad-shot maker I've seen and some of those end of shotclock end of period, end of game shots were needed. But he regularly took ill-advised shots in-game and not just as a heat check. He could easily have had 2-3 less shots per game w/o the team losing a point. He was a great passer but not a willing one. Yes, Shaq and Gasol played the best with Kobe. So he passed the ball to talented players. He should've taken less bad shots still.

Some of the time the team underperformed because average players were not getting the ball enough and couldn't step up in key situations. I honestly think both Detroit and Boston were beatable. It's not entirely Kobe's fault but he had a significant role in bot h losses. (And a significant role in at least 4, maybe all 5 rings.) We are talking about the best of the best here with a potential 7 rings. Well... that would've been top 5 shit. Maybe top 3. (No, still not better than Jordan.)

For the record, I don't give a damn about the Kobe vs. LeBron conversation. I pick Kobe 10 times out of 10. I enjoyed watching him play and I don't enjoy watching LeBron play. But being in a top 10 discussion is still no insult. It is awesome. If he is #2 for you all-time, that's fine. I guess for most fans alive and active today, he is in the top 5. Not in my top 5 but it doesn't really matter. Definitely a legend.

[72-10]

Kobe's top 10, but barely. He was the worst team player I've ever seen, he was uncoachable, he was a coach's nightmare, and each of his talents is overrated. He refused to pass when he should have, and he was so selfish that he shot his team out of some games that they otherwise would have won, a total embarassment that mocked other professionals and that but a few players can lay claim to.

[Stanley Kobrick]

Kobe's top 10, but barely. He was the worst team player I've ever seen, he was uncoachable, he was a coach's nightmare, and each of his talents is overrated. He refused to pass when he should have, and he was so selfish that he shot his team out of some games that they otherwise would have won, a total embarassment that mocked other professionals and that but a few players can lay claim to.
i agree with you 72-10

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH9Z72hA6YU&t=365s

[coastalmarker99]

Anyone with a legitimate argument for why Russell should be in the top 10 instead of Kobe?

List of Hall of Fame help that Bill Russell had during his career
1. Bob Cousy
2. Tom Heinsohn
3. Sam Jones
4. Frank Ramsey
5. John Havlicek
6. Clyde Lovellette
7. Arnie Risen
8. Andy Phillip
9. Bill Sharman
10. K.C. Jones
11. Bailey Howell
12. Tom Sanders
13 Red
He had more help than anyone else in NBA history in a league with 8-14 teams...



And to think that Wilt basically playing 1 vs 5 for the first half of his career with how poor his teammates were was able to take those stacked Celtics teams regularly to 6 or 7 games every single year.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

List of Hall of Fame help that Bill Russell had during his career
1. Bob Cousy
2. Tom Heinsohn
3. Sam Jones
4. Frank Ramsey
5. John Havlicek
6. Clyde Lovellette
7. Arnie Risen
8. Andy Phillip
9. Bill Sharman
10. K.C. Jones
11. Bailey Howell
12. Tom Sanders
13 Red
He had more help than anyone else in NBA history in a league with 8-14 teams...



And to think that Wilt basically playing 1 vs 5 for the first half of his career with how poor his teammates were was able to take those stacked Celtics teams regularly to 6 or 7 games every single year.
Billy's gotta go

[LAL]

Yes, Kobe could've won more if he took less DUMB shots. He was by far the best bad-shot maker I've seen and some of those end of shotclock end of period, end of game shots were needed. But he regularly took ill-advised shots in-game and not just as a heat check. He could easily have had 2-3 less shots per game w/o the team losing a point. He was a great passer but not a willing one. Yes, Shaq and Gasol played the best with Kobe. So he passed the ball to talented players. He should've taken less bad shots still.

Some of the time the team underperformed because average players were not getting the ball enough and couldn't step up in key situations. I honestly think both Detroit and Boston were beatable. It's not entirely Kobe's fault but he had a significant role in bot h losses. (And a significant role in at least 4, maybe all 5 rings.) We are talking about the best of the best here with a potential 7 rings. Well... that would've been top 5 shit. Maybe top 3. (No, still not better than Jordan.)

For the record, I don't give a damn about the Kobe vs. LeBron conversation. I pick Kobe 10 times out of 10. I enjoyed watching him play and I don't enjoy watching LeBron play. But being in a top 10 discussion is still no insult. It is awesome. If he is #2 for you all-time, that's fine. I guess for most fans alive and active today, he is in the top 5. Not in my top 5 but it doesn't really matter. Definitely a legend.

He ToOk DuMb ShOtS

CoUlD hAvE wOn MoRe

DeTrOiT & bOsToN wErE bEaTaBlE

[Axe]

Kobe's top 10, but barely. He was the worst team player I've ever seen, he was uncoachable, he was a coach's nightmare, and each of his talents is overrated. He refused to pass when he should have, and he was so selfish that he shot his team out of some games that they otherwise would have won, a total embarassment that mocked other professionals and that but a few players can lay claim to.
Such an intriguing take. Shit, must read the last season by the zen master asap for more details about his attitude and behavior. I've learned that he also received some backlash for publishing the said book most likely because of kobe's popularity and that his fans treat the black mamba like, you know, like their god. Which is why i'm not surprised why it was like that when it was released almost twenty years ago.

[72-10]

Yikes imagine being this dumb.

Ya gotta numba the tiers playa. Ok get /@ a playa

[72-10]

Yes, Kobe could've won more if he took less DUMB shots. He was by far the best bad-shot maker I've seen and some of those end of shotclock end of period, end of game shots were needed. But he regularly took ill-advised shots in-game and not just as a heat check. He could easily have had 2-3 less shots per game w/o the team losing a point. He was a great passer but not a willing one. Yes, Shaq and Gasol played the best with Kobe. So he passed the ball to talented players. He should've taken less bad shots still.

Some of the time the team underperformed because average players were not getting the ball enough and couldn't step up in key situations. I honestly think both Detroit and Boston were beatable. It's not entirely Kobe's fault but he had a significant role in bot h losses. (And a significant role in at least 4, maybe all 5 rings.) We are talking about the best of the best here with a potential 7 rings. Well... that would've been top 5 shit. Maybe top 3. (No, still not better than Jordan.)

For the record, I don't give a damn about the Kobe vs. LeBron conversation. I pick Kobe 10 times out of 10. I enjoyed watching him play and I don't enjoy watching LeBron play. But being in a top 10 discussion is still no insult. It is awesome. If he is #2 for you all-time, that's fine. I guess for most fans alive and active today, he is in the top 5. Not in my top 5 but it doesn't really matter. Definitely a legend.

I agree with you for the most part, but I don't want to read your post right now...

[72-10]

Such an intriguing take. Shit, must read the last season by the zen master asap for more details about his attitude and behavior. I've learned that he also received some backlash for publishing the said book most likely because of kobe's popularity and that his fans treat the black mamba like, you know, like their god. Which is why i'm not surprised why it was like that when it was released almost twenty years ago.

Well, you know Kobe is considered a king in a tribe, but his narcissism destroyed any potential chemistry with teammates or sense of team play, and he had a golden nugget in Shaq.

[Hey Yo]

He ToOk DuMb ShOtS

CoUlD hAvE wOn MoRe

DeTrOiT & bOsToN wErE bEaTaBlE

No older than age 20 confirmed.

[AirBonner]

Because you give Paul Pierce Shaq and he 6-peats. Pierce gave Kobe an absolute ass whooping once he had a comparable team to Kobe.

[LAL]

Because you give Paul Pierce Shaq and he 6-peats. Pierce gave Kobe an absolute ass whooping once he had a comparable team to Kobe.

Kobe, dwade, bosh in the eastern conference? AD & Kyrie? Pierce>Barea, Terry, Diaw etc

Having Pau Gasol was so comparable to that Celtics superteam. Celtics still failed after 1 ring. Lebum 2/4 with the Heatles, bet he needed Shaq.

[coastalmarker99]

Throughout Kobe Bryant's Entire 20 year Career, he played in 43 playoff series. Of those 43 series, he faced 5 below league average defenses.

• 1998 Jazz
• 1999 Rockets
• 2003 Timberwolves
• 2010 Suns
• 2012 Nuggets

[Gohan]

Throughout Kobe Bryant's Entire 20 year Career, he played in 43 playoff series. Of those 43 series, he faced 5 below league average defenses.

• 1998 Jazz
• 1999 Rockets
• 2003 Timberwolves
• 2010 Suns
• 2012 Nuggets

2008 nuggets defense had to be below average so im not taking that list seriously

[ImKobe]

2008 nuggets defense had to be below average so im not taking that list seriously

Nope. They were 10th in DRTG. Camby and K-Mart were great defensive players. It's crazy that the Lakers made such light work of that team when you look at the two rosters. I'd put that sweep mostly on Melo's horrible play tbh. Kobe and Pau ofc had their best Playoff games of that run in B2B games.

[72-10]

Nope. They were 10th in DRTG. Camby and K-Mart were great defensive players. It's crazy that the Lakers made such light work of that team when you look at the two rosters. I'd put that sweep mostly on Melo's horrible play tbh. Kobe and Pau ofc had their best Playoff games of that run in B2B games.

that Nugget defense wasn't good just like so many others/ Iverson and Melo were on it. Despite Herculean efforts by Kobe to do nothing but put the ball in the basket on offense, he detracted from his teammates doing the same.

[MadDog]

2008 nuggets defense had to be below average so im not taking that list seriously

Kobe lit up Iverson and Melo that series. Got Melo again the following year in the WCF. It was Kobe's league from 06-10.

[Gohan]

nope. They were 10th in drtg. Camby and k-mart were great defensive players. It's crazy that the lakers made such light work of that team when you look at the two rosters. I'd put that sweep mostly on melo's horrible play tbh. Kobe and pau ofc had their best playoff games of that run in b2b games.

camby is a fraud if you watched him you'd know he wasnt a great defensive player i do agree with kmart though. They just couldnt guard pau and jr was talking shit to kobe, that idiot

[ImKobe]

that Nugget defense wasn't good just like so many others/ Iverson and Melo were on it. Despite Herculean efforts by Kobe to do nothing but put the ball in the basket on offense, he detracted from his teammates doing the same.

They were above average. Kobe did more than score, I'm not sure why someone with a '08 join date wouldn't know that.


camby is a fraud if you watched him you'd know he wasnt a great defensive player i do agree with kmart though. They just couldnt guard pau and jr was talking shit to kobe, that idiot

Pretty much. They played with the fastest pace in the league, they were great at taking away the ball and converting in transition, but the Lakers controlled the pace and didn't turn the ball over enough for the Nuggets to have much success in that regard.

Nuggets were not a bad defensive team though, they outrebounded the Lakers by 25 in 4 games in that series. Lakers only turned the ball over 43 times though. Lakers shot the lights out from 3 (~40% which was great by '08 standards) compared to Denver shooting just 25%. Melo, AI, JR & Kleiza all struggled shooting from deep.

[72-10]

camby is a fraud if you watched him you'd know he wasnt a great defensive player i do agree with kmart though. They just couldnt guard pau and jr was talking shit to kobe, that idiot

Despite all those blocked shots Camby was often out of position on d and had some trouble getting his feet set

[TheCorporation]

With 3 MVPs total (2x FMVP, 1 x MVP) he is pretty light on the top 10 status. Most top ten guys have at least 4. Please see the list below if you don't believe me:

MVP counter
MJ = 11
Russell = 8 (I'll give him credit for 3 FMVPs)
LBJ = 8
Kareem = 8
Magic = 6
Bird = 5
Wilt = 5
Duncan = 4
Kareem = 4
Shaq = 4
Moses Malone = 4

That's already 11 players. I'm not saying winning an MVP is the only measure of greatness but it is a big one and when you look at it objectively Kobe doesn't make the cut. He would have to do battle with other 3x MVP winners that are tied with him, listed below:

Hakeem = 3
Kobe = 3
Durant = 3

And we've got plenty of 2x MVPs that are looking to pass him as well:

Curry = 2
Harden = 2
Giannis = 2
Kawhi = 2

And so on and so forth. Kobe's top 15 status is in jeopardy--let's forget about top 10 all together.

[Gohan]

with 3 mvps total (2x fmvp, 1 x mvp) he is pretty light on the top 10 status. Most top ten guys have at least 4. Please see the list below if you don't believe me:

Mvp counter
mj = 11
russell = 8 (i'll give him credit for 3 fmvps)
lbj = 8
kareem = 8
magic = 6
bird = 5
wilt = 5
duncan = 4
kareem = 4
shaq = 4
moses malone = 4

that's already 11 players. I'm not saying winning an mvp is the only measure of greatness but it is a big one and when you look at it objectively kobe doesn't make the cut. He would have to do battle with other 3x mvp winners that are tied with him, listed below:

Hakeem = 3
kobe = 3
durant = 3

and we've got plenty of 2x mvps that are looking to pass him as well:

Curry = 2
harden = 2
giannis = 2
kawhi = 2

and so on and so forth. Kobe's top 15 status is in jeopardy--let's forget about top 10 all together.

im sorry but kawhi cant pass kobe, he's too underwhelming during the regular season. Regular season should count more than people act like it does. Postseason is only like 20 games

[TheCorporation]

im sorry but kawhi cant pass kobe, he's too underwhelming during the regular season. Regular season should count more than people act like it does. Postseason is only like 20 games

I agree that we put too much emphasis on team achievements (rings) than we do on individual player ability. We aren't ranking teams after all, just players. A regular season MVP is the hardest award to win, and by far the most coveted. It should be anyway, but it usually isn't.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Since it's been established that Russell isn't better than Kobe overall he doesn't belong in the top 10.

The End

[elementally morale]

I agree that we put too much emphasis on team achievements (rings) than we do on individual player ability. We aren't ranking teams after all, just players. A regular season MVP is the hardest award to win, and by far the most coveted. It should be anyway, but it usually isn't.

I'm not sure you have Nash over Shaq or Rose&Westbrook over CP3. MVP is not an individual award. It's the best selling story among the best players of the best teams.

[Gohan]

i'm not sure you have nash over shaq or rose&westbrook over cp3. Mvp is not an individual award. It's the best selling story among the best players of the best teams.

its called context

[TheCorporation]

I'm not sure you have Nash over Shaq or Rose&Westbrook over CP3. MVP is not an individual award. It's the best selling story among the best players of the best teams.

How many times does it need to be said? The MVP award is nearly predictable every single year and has nothing to do with a story line. 99% of the MVP winners goes to the best player on a #1 or #2 seed team. That's it. There is no secret voting system or storyline.

[elementally morale]

How many times does it need to be said? The MVP award is nearly predictable every single year and has nothing to do with a story line. 99% of the MVP winners goes to the best player on a #1 or #2 seed team. That's it. There is no secret voting system or storyline.

Even if so winning MVP isn't about being the best player in the NBA. Nash was never the best player though one of my favorites. He deserved MVP based on both criteria (best player+story and team success) but just as not all players can win a ring not all players can win MVP either. Giannis is not better than Kawhi and Rose isn't and never was better than CP3.

Everything counts but nothing counts too much. Peak play, length of prime, MVP, rings, FMVP, entertainment factor, longevity... all have to count when talking of greatest players. This is the reason I have Kobe as borderline top 10. I've seen at least 5-6 arguably better players, a few others in the discussion and 3 others who played before my time watching but the resumé is jut too much to overlook.

All I'm saying as that just as rings (and finals losses) are not the only argument neither are individual accolades. On the other hand it's not science and thus subjective. If someone has LeBron as #1 I can't blame him. I personally don't... doesn't matter much.

[tpols]

Bottom line awards are media fabrications. Its like how Hollywood tells you who the best actors are, or young money and bad boy tell you who the best rappers are. You're being played for a fool endorsing the sellouts these organizations promote. As far as basketball ability goes Kobe is Mount Rushmore with MJ, Magic, and Bird.

[MadDog]

Bottom line awards are media fabrications. Its like how Hollywood tells you who the best actors are, or young money and bad boy tell you who the best rappers are. You're being played for a fool endorsing the sellouts these organizations promote. As far as basketball ability goes Kobe is Mount Rushmore with MJ, Magic, and Bird.

You had a reasonable take in the other thread. Lot of food for thought regarding "sidekick" rings. Magic winning with Kareem and vice versa isn't exactly noteworthy. What's weird though is them getting full credit like Shaq does. But Kobe? Not so much.

Kobe had superstar production, and played as well or better than just about everyone in the league. Including Magic and Kareem, depending on the playoff run. Yet people are still under this notion he was Scottie Pippen. :confusedshrug: Far from.

[Axe]

Well, you know Kobe is considered a king in a tribe, but his narcissism destroyed any potential chemistry with teammates or sense of team play, and he had a golden nugget in Shaq.
So true. He's a great athlete and a great dad but that doesn't mean he didn't have a dark side in his career. He somehow did mature though.

[ImKobe]

You had a reasonable take in the other thread. Lot of food for thought regarding "sidekick" rings. Magic winning with Kareem and vice versa isn't exactly noteworthy. What's weird though is them getting full credit like Shaq does. But Kobe? Not so much.

Kobe had superstar production, and played as well or better than just about everyone in the league. Including Magic and Kareem, depending on the playoff run. Yet people are still under this notion he was Scottie Pippen. :confusedshrug: Far from.

Facts. '00 is the only championship run of Kobe's where he had Pippen's production, even then he was already the closer on the team, which Pippen never was in any of his Playoff runs with MJ.

Kobe's '00 chip is better than Kareem's last two, on par or better than Duncan's 5th and on par with Shaq's 4th, yet I've never seen ANYONE discredit those rings compared to what has been said about Kobe's.

So what makes Kobe's 5 any less impressive than Magic's or Duncan's? Are we really going to use media awards to kick Kobe down a notch when we know the media was biased against him in the mid-2000s after his Colorado case? Most of these guys were role players or retired by their 17th year while Kobe was still 1st team All-NBA and one of the MVP candidates. Kobe and Lebron are the only players in league history to play at an MVP level in their 17th seasons.

[TheCorporation]

Even if so winning MVP isn't about being the best player in the NBA. Nash was never the best player though one of my favorites. He deserved MVP based on both criteria (best player+story and team success) but just as not all players can win a ring not all players can win MVP either. Giannis is not better than Kawhi and Rose isn't and never was better than CP3.

Everything counts but nothing counts too much. Peak play, length of prime, MVP, rings, FMVP, entertainment factor, longevity... all have to count when talking of greatest players. This is the reason I have Kobe as borderline top 10. I've seen at least 5-6 arguably better players, a few others in the discussion and 3 others who played before my time watching but the resumé is jut too much to overlook.

All I'm saying as that just as rings (and finals losses) are not the only argument neither are individual accolades. On the other hand it's not science and thus subjective. If someone has LeBron as #1 I can't blame him. I personally don't... doesn't matter much.

The MVP award is nearly predictable every single year and has nothing to do with a story line. 99% of the MVP winners goes to the best player on a #1 or #2 seed team. That's it. There is no secret voting system or storyline.

MVP =
• Did you win games? (Add value)
• Were you the driving force? (Best player on winning team)

Simple formula. It's hard to be an "MVP" most valuable player if your team only got a 7 seed. How much value did you really add?