Alpha Rings re: Shaq & Kobe vs Kareem & Magic

[jalbert009]

There are several opinions in how you want to view Kobes 5 rings. Some say the 3peat are Shaq' s rings. Some say the last ring was 1a & 1b. But the point is Kobe always seem to get discredited for playing with Shaq a top 10 GOAT player which ultimately impacts on his all time rankings.

Let's talk about Kareem who a vast majority of fans have him ranked in their top 3 GOAT and Magic who many rank in the Top 8 at least.

Well these 2 played together for a significant portion of their careers and won 5 championships together. Who should really own the Alpha Rings in those championship runs and if they were Magics Teams then should Kareem be ranked lower? The 70s were not dominated by super teams and Kareem only managed to win 1 in his prime.

So why do people seem to give Kareem & Magic a pass regarding Alpha Rings and impact on all time rankings. Thoughts?

[coastalmarker99]

There are several opinions in how you want to view Kobes 5 rings. Some say the 3peat are Shaq' s rings. Some say the last ring was 1a & 1b. But the point is Kobe always seem to get discredited for playing with Shaq a top 10 GOAT player which ultimately impacts on his all time rankings.

Let's talk about Kareem who a vast majority of fans have him ranked in their top 3 GOAT and Magic who many rank in the Top 8 at least.

Well these 2 played together for a significant portion of their careers and won 5 championships together. Who should really own the Alpha Rings in those championship runs and if they were Magics Teams then should Kareem be ranked lower? The 70s were not dominated by super teams and Kareem only managed to win 1 in his prime.

So why do people seem to give Kareem & Magic a pass regarding Alpha Rings and impact on all time rankings. Thoughts?


Showtime become Magic's team starting in 82 as he always finished first ahead of Kareem in the MVP voting and he was winning most of the finals MVP's from that point on.

[Norcaliblunt]

There are several opinions in how you want to view Kobes 5 rings. Some say the 3peat are Shaq' s rings. Some say the last ring was 1a & 1b. But the point is Kobe always seem to get discredited for playing with Shaq a top 10 GOAT player which ultimately impacts on his all time rankings.

Let's talk about Kareem who a vast majority of fans have him ranked in their top 3 GOAT and Magic who many rank in the Top 8 at least.

Well these 2 played together for a significant portion of their careers and won 5 championships together. Who should really own the Alpha Rings in those championship runs and if they were Magics Teams then should Kareem be ranked lower? The 70s were not dominated by super teams and Kareem only managed to win 1 in his prime.

So why do people seem to give Kareem & Magic a pass regarding Alpha Rings and impact on all time rankings. Thoughts?

Honestly I don’t think this whole “alpha ring” thing started until Kobe wanted to get away from Shaq. Before that no one talked alpha rings.

[coastalmarker99]

Magic was the key reason for showtime's success don't let anyone tell you otherwise and if not for Worthy robbing him of the finals Mvp in 1988 then Magic would have won 4 finals MVP's to along with 2 regular season MVP's from 1980 to 1989.

[coastalmarker99]

2000 real NBA finals was vs portland ( kobe saved shaq )

2001 real NBA finals was vs san antonio ( kobe carried shaq )

2002 real NBA finals was vs sacramento ( kobe 27 and 4, shaq 30 and 1.. kobe had more production )

2009 kobe had a 94 hakeem style run averaging 30 to gasols 18

2010 kobe had an all time great run, historic close out wcf and amazing first 6 games of nba finals. struggled but took LA home in the last 15 minutes of game 7. another run where his sidekick only averaged 18ppg. 2 of the lowest sidekick averages ever. i think they rank like 50-60th out of 74 sidekick averages all time... jeff was so devastated he deleted all my posts along with my all time sidekick rankings so i can't look it up


kobe should get a full 5 rings worth of credit but people say shaq averaging 35 vs smits/macculloch/40yrold deke in series that were already decided before the lakers showed up somehow takes away from what kobe did against the best teams when shaq was shook.


its BS.. he proved shaq needed him more than kobe needed shaq... all shaq ever did was get swept or gentleman swept out of the playoffs 10 times without kobe aside from his 1 title with miami where he was 3rd leading scorer behind antoine walker in a rigged finals where wade averaged 20 free throws a game







clueless...it was far more kareem or someone else ( plus refs ) carrying tragic to almost all his success

in 1980 he stole kareems finals mvp with one big performance like kobes game 4 in 2000
in 1982 he stole finals mvp again averaging less points and assists than norm nixon and tragic was like 4th in scoring overall
in 1985 kareem was legit finals mvp
in 1988 the phantom foul on kareem by laimbeer stole game 6 and the title away from the pistons

magic has 1 alpha ring and 3 beta rings

kareem has 4 alpha rings and 1 beta ring


shaq was solid vs the west with kobe so i give him 3 alpha rings and 1 beta ring



Let's see here...

Game six of the NBA Finals, in Magic's rookie season, on the road, and without Kareem, who was at home sleeping on his couch...and all Magic did was put up a 42 point game, on 14-23 shooting from the field, and a perfect 14-14 from the line...with a game high (and by a huge margin) 15 rebounds, along with seven assists, in leading the Lakers to a clinching title win.

Magic was injured in the following season and was nowhere 100% in the playoffs. Did Kareem step up like Magic? No, he was outplayed by Moses, and the 40-42 Rockets stunned LA.

In the very next season, it was Magic who dominated in the post-season, particularly the Finals, and again winning the Finals MVP. Kareem was below average in the post-season that year.

In the 86-87 season, it was Magic and then Worthy who led LA to a dominating title, with Kareem contributing as the "third wheel."

In the 87-88 season, it was again Magic and Worthy who led LA to a hard-fought seven-game series title win over the Pistons.


How about Kareem? He played poorly in the entire post-season and was simply awful in the Finals (he averaged 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and shot .41.4...and was a non-factor defensively.) So, the Lakers essentially won the title that year despite Kareem. AC Green and Mychael Thompson played even better than Kareem.

In the next season, the Lakers were 11-0 going into the Finals. They were already without Byron Scott going into the Finals, and then Magic went down mid-way in game two, in a tie game...and was lost for the series. The Lakers were swept without him. Kareem was worthless in the entire series.

Kareem retired, and Magic led LA to a 63-19 record, which was the best record in the league, and the Lakers' second-best record in the decade of the '80s. And then Magic took that "Showtime" team, which was well past their peak, and injury-riddled, to a 58-24 record, and yet another final.

Interesting too that with Kareem, Magic's Lakers averaged 58 wins per season, and without Kareem, they averaged 61 wins per season, despite being in the twilight of their Dynasty.

[coastalmarker99]

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons


Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime.



In those 4 seasons, the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team.


Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether it's deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes, they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

[coastalmarker99]

Let's examine Kareem's only title without Magic The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71. Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)




However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.



Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.




Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

[coastalmarker99]

by your logic kyrie is finals mvp in 2016. he closed out the warriors

26 points on 44%, 40% threes plus the series winning shot and a +10

vs

27 points on 37%, 20% threes and a +4


You are retarded as Lebron had all of the Cavs fourth quarter points in the last 5 minutes of that game seven-plus he also had a triple-double in that game and the biggest play in that game with his block on Iggy.

[coastalmarker99]

https://i.gifer.com/tN7.gif

Besides Kyrie's three is what I meant to say.

[Micku]

I personally think it's because of a couple of things.

1. Kobe wanted to be the guy.

2. The comparisons Kobe had with MJ.

3. Internet era

4. People live in the here and now.

So, there were a bunch of fans attacking and defending him because of the comparisons with MJ and/or him wanting to be the guy.

With Magic and Kareem, all the ppl who I talked to who saw them play would say Kareem was the guy in the beginning. Magic took over in the mid 80s, but Kareem was the cap. But they never discredit Magic's rings like they do Kobe I think because of the reasons stated above. But many fans have different reasons why they would not. This is after years later.

But back then, they did talk about it. They talked about how Magic had help and other players did not have as much. If you go deep and look at the internet history, there were definitely ppl who did complain. They said Magic whined to the refs too much. In 1990, there were some ppl that said Magic finally knows how it feels to be like MJ and have to carry a team by himself. He had Kareem and the best talent team in the league for a decade. There was even a news report that compared MJ to Magic, Kareem, Bird and Wilt and they were talking about how much help they got over MJ.

I think as the years went on, ppl who talk b-ball now are either too young or forgot that even happen.

Magic needed Kareem and vice versa. Magic was the reason why they became showtime and he was the prince of LA, but Kareem was their best player in the early 80s.

[ShawkFactory]

by your logic kyrie is finals mvp in 2016. he closed out the warriors

26 points on 44%, 40% threes plus the series winning shot and a +10

vs

27 points on 37%, 20% threes and a +4

He closed out the series without Kareem on the court.

Lebron did literally everything else a basketball player is supposed to do in that game 7, freeing Kyrie up to do what he does best. And he also outscored him.

Completely different scenarios.

[jalbert009]

Honestly I don’t think this whole “alpha ring” thing started until Kobe wanted to get away from Shaq. Before that no one talked alpha rings.

Well I saw the other thread about what keeps Kobe out of the top 10 and he gets discredited for having Shaq which made me wonder why the same principle doesn't get applied to Kareem and Magic.

My GOAT List is in Tiers and people in same Tier can be moved around based on criteria however after giving more thought around having a top 10 GOAT as a team mate, I now wonder if Kareem deserves to be as high as I have rated him. Perhaps he should be a Tier 2 GOAT having benefited from Magic. And perhaps maybe Magic is ranked too high having benefited from Kareem on his team. I can't take away that they have won rings together but I need to consider context. I can already see some great discussions and I personally have little knowledge from the 80s since I started watching in the late 90s.

Tier 1 - Mount Rushmore
1.Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Bill Russell

Tier 2 - Top 10
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaquile Oneal
10. Kobe Bryant


I personally think it's because of a couple of things.

1. Kobe wanted to be the guy.

2. The comparisons Kobe had with MJ.

3. Internet era

4. People live in the here and now.

So, there were a bunch of fans attacking and defending him because of the comparisons with MJ and/or him wanting to be the guy.

With Magic and Kareem, all the ppl who I talked to who saw them play would say Kareem was the guy in the beginning. Magic took over in the mid 80s, but Kareem was the cap. But they never discredit Magic's rings like they do Kobe I think because of the reasons stated above. But many fans have different reasons why they would not. This is after years later.

But back then, they did talk about it. They talked about how Magic had help and other players did not have as much. If you go deep and look at the internet history, there were definitely ppl who did complain. They said Magic whined to the refs too much. In 1990, there were some ppl that said Magic finally knows how it feels to be like MJ and have to carry a team by himself. He had Kareem and the best talent team in the league for a decade. There was even a news report that compared MJ to Magic, Kareem, Bird and Wilt and they were talking about how much help they got over MJ.

I think as the years went on, ppl who talk b-ball now are either too young or forgot that even happen.

Magic needed Kareem and vice versa. Magic was the reason why they became showtime and he was the prince of LA, but Kareem was their best player in the early 80s.


Agree with your points. And like you, all the people I have spoken to or read discussions point to Kareem was the man initially but Magic eventually took over. And then there's the question of when this transition happened.

My Gut is telling me though that Kareem benefited more from Magic than Magic benefiting from Kareem in terms of who boosted who's legacy. Waiting to see more discussion about this.

[Micku]

Agree with your points. And like you, all the people I have spoken to or read discussions point to Kareem was the man initially but Magic eventually took over. And then there's the question of when this transition happened.

My Gut is telling me though that Kareem benefited more from Magic than Magic benefiting from Kareem in terms of who boosted who's legacy. Waiting to see more discussion about this.

I believe so too. But y'know, it's easier to make Kareem, Worthy, Norm Nixon, Cooper, Byron Scott better than Darrell Griffith or whatever on the Jazz team aside from Dantley.

I think they had stretches where they both won a stretch of games w/o each other. When one player was out. They still had with Magic out and Cooper was playin the point. They had a run with Kareem out, and that caused some issues. From what I seen, Magic is definitely one of those players where his impact is greater than his stats even though his stats are great. The way he controls the pace between fast and slow, and his IQ, passing, and shot selection. Probably the best I seen...at least from the games that I seen. Like he is really one of those players who could be the best player on the floor, and shoot only like 8-10 shots.

But there was issues with Magic run without Kareem.



And while his teammates publicly praised Kareem, talking about how the team needed him to be successful, privately, some guys believed they would be better without him. The media was only adding fuel to the fire, as two Lakers writers gave voice in print to the dump-Kareem sentiment. One of them even gave out matchbooks that read “TRADE KAREEM.”

...

I think everybody was getting carried away with just how great Earvin Johnson was, and his impact on the team, and how it would be best to run for 48 minutes and not have to throw the ball into the center. We had just lost a couple games by dropping the ball down inside to Kareem at the end by being too predictable. Players were actually doing some moaning about it in the press.

...

when he was asked how he really felt about playing without Jabbar, Johnson had this to say.

"When he leaves, you’ll be able to see the real Magic show. I’ve had to change my game because of the big fella. I’m just waiting my turn. My time will come."

...

Meanwhile, Pat Riley, who had just replaced Paul Westhead as the Lakers’ head coach, was fuming — especially after the whole thing went public. He demanded keeping the teams’ issues behind locker room doors, and once they were leaked to the press, he decided to put an end to it by summoning the players to a meeting.

"Who here thinks we can get along without Kareem? Whoever it is, maybe you’ll be the one to go. If you’ve got something to say, say it here, and we’ll discuss it. If you’re gonna start giving information like that to the media, allowing them to use it against us, then we’re on our way down."
Pat Riley, LA Times

Nobody said anything. Thus Riley answered everyone’s question about the Lakers being better without Kareem. They weren’t, and Pat knew it 20 games into his tenure as the team’s head coach.



https://www.basketballnetwork.net/how-pat-riley-saved-kareem-and-magic-from-a-breakup-in-their-third-season-together/


Honestly, it's cool if you go with Magic. He has the success. But all the older people who I talk to, always say Kareem. They tend to always go to Kareem as well in the games that I seen. He was their number 1 option, although Magic was the engine.

You could argue that Magic was just lucky to play with a talented squad, but Magic was good enough to go to any team and I think be successful. I dunno if he'll be able to win as much rings. Probably not due to the competition at the time at the very top. You need to be stacked in order to win and you rarely get more stacked than the 80s Lakers. But without Magic, I don't know if Kareem would be rated as high. Probably win less rings for sure. Still among high tier, but I dunno like goat tier. But who knows.

[Gohan]

how was 2001 spurs the real nba finals and they got swept? silly milk dud head

[WhiteKyrie]

2000 - Shaq’s alpha ring (+1), Kobe sidekick ring (+.5)
2001 - Shaq’s co-alpha ring (+1), Kobe co-alpha ring (+1)
2002 - Shaq’s co-alpha ring (+1), Kobe co-alpha ring (+1)

Ring Count:
Shaq (3x Rings)
Kobe (2.5x Rings)

2006 - Wade alpha ring (+1), Shaq sidekick ring (+.5)

Ring Count:
Wade (1x Ring)
Shaq (3.5x Rings)

2009 - Kobe alpha ring (+1), Gasol sidekick ring (+.5)
2010 - Kobe alpha ring (+1), Gasol sidekick ring (+.5)

Ring Count:
Kobe (4.5x Rings)
Gasol (1x Ring)

2012 - LeBron co-alpha ring (+.5 lockout), Wade co-alpha ring (+.5 lockout)
2013 - LeBron alpha ring (+1), Wade sidekick ring (+.5)

Ring Count:
Wade (2x Rings)
LeBron (1.5x Rings)

2016 - LeBron co-alpha ring (+1), Kyrie co-alpha ring (+1)

Ring Count:
LeBron (2.5x Rings)
Kyrie (1x Ring)

2017 - KD co-alpha ring (+1), Curry co-alpha ring (+1)
2018 - KD co-alpha ring (+1), Curry co-alpha ring (+1)

Ring Count:
KD (2x Rings)
Curry (3x Rings)

2020 - AD co-alpha ring (+.5 bubble chip), LeBron co-alpha ring (+.5 bubble chip)

Ring Count:
LeBron (3x Rings)
AD (.5x Ring)

That’s my rationale. Not as knowledgeable about the Kareem and Magic seasons. Didnt’t start watching until 89 / 90, and I was a youngin. But the same arguments leveled at Kobe for his Chip seasons with Shaq aren’t directed at Kareem (even with Big O) and Magic. Which totally isn’t fair. Especially considering Kobe’s abilities in 2001 and 2002 as a player. Best defender on the team and best offensive player. Ran the offense. Averaged near 30 ppg. And was the closer for the team. Shaq was a damn liability in the clutch. And his Finals matchup in 2002 was a joke. Kobe was facing the Nets best players on the perimeter, and destroyed them.

[tpols]

Yup... Kareem only won one title with the Bucks, didn't win anything with the Lakers in the 70s, and then was carried by Magic in the 80s to nearly all his titles but nobody spotlights Kareems lack of "da man" titles how they do Kobes. A lot have Kareem at # 2.

[tpols]

Kareem played 4 seasons in LA without Magic which were in his prime. Kareem at that time was considered the most individually dominating player in the game. But in those 4 "Magicless" seasons


Kareem led the Lakers to very limited success which includes a losing season where they missed the playoffs (Kareem played in ALL 82 games that season) and a 1st round exit. They only made it as far as the conference Finals one season and got swept with Kareem in his prime.



In those 4 seasons, the Lakers averaged only 46 wins. In '79 before Magic got there, the Lakers were basically an average middle of the pack team.


Magic played in 2 seasons without Kareem and led the Lakers to the best record in the entire NBA the 1st season and the NBA Finals the next.

Whether it's deserved or not, Magic is viewed by the organization and the public as the reason the Lakers went from being bridesmaids to brides. Yes, they won the '72 title, but since the days of Mikan, that had been their only championship before Magic arrived despite making it to so many Finals.

Kareem was obviously a spectacular individual talent but basketball is a TEAM game and it's well documented how antisocial and scornful he was. He didn't elevate anybody. While Magic was the best elevator ever.

[WhiteKyrie]

Yup... Kareem only won one title with the Bucks, didn't win anything with the Lakers in the 70s, and then was carried by Magic in the 80s to nearly all his titles but nobody spotlights Kareems lack of "da man" titles how they do Kobes. A lot have Kareem at # 2.
Yup. No one criticized Shaq’s clear sidekick ring in 2006. And given the way he performed compares to: 2000 Kobe, 2013 Wade, that’s being VERY generous. Wade was easily their best player by the start of the 2005 playoffs, a whole season befofe. Prob would’ve won a chip that year too had Wade not got injured vs the Pistons in the 2005 ECF.

[ShawkFactory]

Yup... Kareem only won one title with the Bucks, didn't win anything with the Lakers in the 70s, and then was carried by Magic in the 80s to nearly all his titles but nobody spotlights Kareems lack of "da man" titles how they do Kobes. A lot have Kareem at # 2.

Name another player on the 1977 lakers without looking.

[tpols]

I didn't know Kareem had to beat a 40 win Bullet team in the '71 Finals. Holy shit... he is the most overrated player ever maybe.

[WhiteKyrie]

I didn't know Kareem had to beat a 40 win Bullet team in the '71 Finals. Holy shit... he is the most overrated player ever maybe.
Didn’t get into the playoffs as an MVP? Imagine that now.

He was an anti-social weirdo, and terrible leader.

Couldn’t elevate teammates for shit. Couldn’t put the fear of god of failing their leader in high pressure scenarios like Mike, Kobe and Bird.

And super overrated. He needed Magic (top 5 ever, best PG ever) … Big O (top 15 ever)

[Rysio]

Kobe won no fmvps with shaq lol that's why he gets no credit but during the 3peat lakers faced a proven champion twice and kobe was the mvp twice so whatever shaq put up against cupcakes to win a worthless award kobe won the real mvp award against Real competition.

[tpols]

Didn’t get into the playoffs as an MVP? Imagine that now.

He was an anti-social weirdo, and terrible leader.

Couldn’t elevate teammates for shit. Couldn’t put the fear of god of failing their leader in high pressure scenarios like Mike, Kobe and Bird.

And super overrated. He needed Magic (top 5 ever, best PG ever) … Big O (top 15 ever)

Yea it seems as though his individual in a vacuum ability was GOAT but he had horrible intangibles. So people would marvel at the height and the fluidity and the skill but forget half of what makes winning. (in anything)

If you look at the best players of all time, they all have GOAT ability, but what seperates the cream from the crop is intangibles ~ ie leadership and making others better.

Not to go off on a tangent but Jason Kidd wasn't that good at shooting or scoring the ball but he had GOAT intangibles. Ditto Bill Russell.

[WhiteKyrie]

Yea it seems as though his individual in a vacuum ability was GOAT but he had horrible intangibles. So people would marvel at the height and the fluidity and the skill but forget half of what makes winning. (in anything)

If you look at the best players of all time, they all have GOAT ability, but what seperates the cream from the crop is intangibles ~ ie leadership and making others better.

Not to go off on a tangent but Jason Kidd wasn't that good at shooting or scoring the ball but he had GOAT intangibles. Ditto Bill Russell.
100% agreed. Kareem gets a lot of excuses. I don’t think he’s better than Shaq or Hakeem. Probably not even David Robinson or Wilt. Or really even Duncan. Not enough of a winner, winning culture creator. Needed Magic and Worthy for the lion share of his rings. Big O, for the other. Great player but I definitely don’t think he’s the second best player ever.

[FKAri]

100% agreed. Kareem gets a lot of excuses. I don’t think he’s better than Shaq or Hakeem. Probably not even David Robinson or Wilt. Or really even Duncan. Not enough of a winner, winning culture creator. Needed Magic and Worthy for the lion share of his rings. Big O, for the other. Great player but I definitely don’t think he’s the second best player ever.

Magic would have 0 rings if he wasn't on a great team. Magic and Kareem needed each other to win. Kobe and Shaq needed each other to win. Simple as that. Kobe won 0 rings when he was in the middle of his prime. Why? Because his team sucked. Not his fault. Failure to establish a winning culture my ass. Steve Nash is one of the best players I've seen in terms of that and yet he has 0 rings. It takes things within and beyond your control to win a championship.

[mr4speed]

Magic would have 0 rings if he wasn't on a great team. Magic and Kareem needed each other to win. Kobe and Shaq needed each other to win. Simple as that. Kobe won 0 rings when he was in the middle of his prime. Why? Because his team sucked. Not his fault. Failure to establish a winning culture my ass. Steve Nash is one of the best players I've seen in terms of that and yet he has 0 rings. It takes things within and beyond your control to win a championship.

Great post! Sometimes good luck is needed also. After reading this post here is why I always have Kareem ahead of Magic. 1980 game 6 Magic was superb but Kareem is clearly why LA won the other 3 games and even after game 6 the voters chose Kareem as the FMVP until the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award because Kareem was not present. In 1981 Kareem had his hands full with Moses ( so under-rated) but if you want to look at why LA lost the deciding game in LA = look at Magic's terrible game. Magic scored 10 points on 2 of 14 shooting and was 6 of 11 FT with 2 misses late in the 4th quarter and on the last possession hoisted an airball. In 82 again Kareem was the better player throughout the season, but Moses gave Kareem trouble so Magic was a good choice for FMVP for that series. In 83 this was the Sixers year! Magic did not have a good Finals = shooting 40.3% and having 24 turnovers in 4 games. In 84 Magic was the player who failed in several clutch moments late in those games and if LA had won game 7, Kareem would have been FMVP. In 85 after his terrible game 1 Kareem put up in the next 5 games a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 6.0 assists on 61% shooting. Kareem was clearly the FMVP in 85. Magic was clearly the better player from 87 on, but Kareem was the better player for a longer period of time. Magic from his book titled "Touch" pgs 74-76 about taking the last shot in a game "Kareem, Jamaal, and Norm all wanted the big shot. But when my turn came, I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it because for so many years I wasn't the guy. I wasn't used to those situations...to take the jump shot? No way. Kareem was the #1 option, Jamaal 2nd, Norm 3rd. I just got crumbs but that was cool, that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 during the championship series vs Boston", We need to put this context into perspective when looking at these 2 great players. One more comment from Magic in his book titled "My Life" pg 116 on Kareem. "He could dominate a game almost at will. When that happened, the rest of us could pretty well stand back and watch the show. What gets overlooked is that Kareem made it easier for me, and not just me, but all the Lakers. Our opponents had to double team him, which left one of us open for the outside shot."

[MadDog]

100% agreed. Kareem gets a lot of excuses. I don’t think he’s better than Shaq or Hakeem. Probably not even David Robinson or Wilt. Or really even Duncan. Not enough of a winner, winning culture creator. Needed Magic and Worthy for the lion share of his rings. Big O, for the other. Great player but I definitely don’t think he’s the second best player ever.


Yea it seems as though his individual in a vacuum ability was GOAT but he had horrible intangibles. So people would marvel at the height and the fluidity and the skill but forget half of what makes winning. (in anything)

If you look at the best players of all time, they all have GOAT ability, but what seperates the cream from the crop is intangibles ~ ie leadership and making others better.

Not to go off on a tangent but Jason Kidd wasn't that good at shooting or scoring the ball but he had GOAT intangibles. Ditto Bill Russell.

Regarding Kobe's sidekick rings. Both of you make good points. We don't penalize Magic or Kareem for winning together. Yet somehow Kobe's rings "dont count" with Shaq. In the 2001 playoffs, Kobe averaged 29/6/7 on 56%TS. And 27/6/5 the following year. Both of those playoff runs are on par and arguably BETTER THAN a few of Kareem and Magic's. While winning their rings together.

I got Kobe around top 10, but see a good argument for him being 7-8. Especially if you're weighing his first titles, appropriately.

[ImKobe]

Regarding Kobe's sidekick rings. Both of you make good points. We don't penalize Magic or Kareem for winning together. Yet somehow Kobe's rings "dont count" with Shaq. In the 2001 playoffs, Kobe averaged 29/6/7 on 56%TS. And 27/6/5 the following year. Both of those playoff runs are on par and arguably BETTER THAN a few of Kareem and Magic's. While winning their rings together.

I got Kobe around top 10, but see a good argument for him being 7-8. Especially if you're weighing his first titles, appropriately.

Only idiots would argue that Kobe's rings "don't count" or "are not the same as #1 alpha rings" when he ran the triangle and was the closer on all of those teams. Even in 2000, when he got injured and his PPG wasn't as high, he was the best player on the court when all the chips were on the table & it was win or go home. Kobe's 2000 ring is on par with Pippen's best(he was a 23/4/5/2/2 guy in the first 3 rounds, injury in the Finals skews his numbers), and his other 4 are all on the same level as a 1st option ring would normally be. Kobe's TS% numbers get criticized, but high-volume perimeter scorers were not that efficient in the early 2000s prior to the rule changes.

Aside from '00, the Lakers really were top heavy and relied on Kobe & Shaq BOTH to play as #1 options/superstars in order to get out of the Western Conference, Shaq's game made him better when it came to efficiency and his poor FT shooting led to him getting fouled a lot on purpose which resulted in free points, but they needed Kobe to win big games over & over again in 4th quarters, as well as set Shaq up for easy points.