What happens when players get 8+ APG in PO as team's best player (highest all-time)

[3ba11]

.
Successes

Isiah (89', 90')
Jordan (91')
Lebron (20')
CP3 (21')
____________________
Total Successes: 5



Failures

Nash (02', 04', 05', 06', 07', 08', 09', 10')
CP3 (08', 09', 11', 14, 15', 17', 18', 19', 20')
Westbrook (14', 16', 17', 19', 21')
Lebron (07', 15', 18', 21')
Harden (17', 18')
Doncic (20', 21)
Wall (15', 17', 18')
MANY MORE
____________________________________
Total Failures: too many to count (hundreds)



CONCLUSION: Players that get 8+ assists don't win, unless they play with a goat candidate (Kareem), or one-offs like Draymond in 2018 - otherwise, players that averaged 8 apg as their team's best player (highest ranked all-time) only succeeded 5 out of hundreds of times, shown above.. So high-assist, ball-dominator style is a weak brand that doesn't win.. The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

[000]

Hey 3ball, whats your opinion on dennis johnson vs allen iverson

[j3lademaster]

Wow, that is elite company. The fact that Lebron did it TWICE surely makes him a goat candidate, being able to win with the handicap of playing such a debilitating style.

https://media.giphy.com/media/DXzjQbnNQOtyhUnGMK/giphy.gif

[3ba11]

Hey 3ball, whats your opinion on dennis johnson vs allen iverson


Iverson is better but employs a poor brand like Lebron, and therefore needs a super-team to actually win.. So he compares to a guy like Dennis Johnson but not the goats

[000]

Iverson is better
How can that possibly be true? Dennis johnson has way more total playoff points, lots of all-d longevity awards, and many more finals appearances...

Something is amiss

[1987_Lakers]

Magic '87 & '88: 12.4 APG with Kareem averaging 16 ppg.

[3ba11]

Wow, that is elite company. The fact that Lebron did it TWICE surely makes him a goat candidate, being able to win with the handicap of playing such a debilitating style.

https://media.giphy.com/media/DXzjQbnNQOtyhUnGMK/giphy.gif


Actually, Lebron only did it once in 2020 (not 2016) because the OP was a typo - Lebron didn't average 8+ apg in the 16' Playoffs

[3ba11]

Magic '87 & '88: 12.4 APG with Kareem averaging 16 ppg.


It's hard to give Magic credit when he played with someone ranked higher than him all-time.. But even if we included Magic in 87' or 88', that still only increases the total successes to 7, versus hundreds of failures.

[8Ball]

Jordan is a Giannis lever passer.

Mediocre.

LeBron is higher skilled. Next thread.

[1987_Lakers]

Actually, Lebron only did it once in 2020 (not 2016) because the OP was a typo - Lebron didn't average 8+ apg in the 16' Playoffs

He did in the Finals

https://media.giphy.com/media/DXzjQbnNQOtyhUnGMK/giphy.gif

[3ba11]

He did in the Finals

https://media.giphy.com/media/DXzjQbnNQOtyhUnGMK/giphy.gif


Yes he did, but the OP only includes the Playoffs as a whole, which is a more reliable sample of games to gauge whether the player was infact employing a ball-dominant style...

Even if we included instances of players succeeding with it in the Finals, and it would barely add to the list of successes.

Ultimately, players that get 8+ assists don't win, unless they play with a goat candidate (Kareem), or one-offs like Draymond in 2018 - otherwise, players that averaged 8 apg as their team's best player (highest ranked all-time) only succeeded 5 out of hundreds of times, shown above.. So the high-assist, ball-dominator style is a weak brand that doesn't win.. The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

[8Ball]

Jordan doesn't pass more because he has Giannis level passing ability.

This isn't hard.

[000]

Jordan doesn't pass more because he has Giannis level passing ability.

This isn't hard.
Lebron averages 7 apg in the playoffs, is that really what youre bragging about?:roll:

For the record mike averaged 6.6 apg from 85-93

[3ba11]

Jordan doesn't pass more because he has Giannis level passing ability.

This isn't hard.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2021/mN9vU8.gif


Jordan was called the best point guard in Year 5 and superior to Magic, while Lebron wasn't called the best PG until Year 17.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mj+point+guard&source=hp&ei=-QzmYOLOGaW_0PEPzZ-X8AQ&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAYOYbCdiqc-bKOundgWF7nyMIjs45WHut&oq=mj+point+guard&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyAggAMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjI GCAAQFhAeOg4ILhCxAxDHARCjAhCTAjoICAAQsQMQgwE6CAguE LEDEIMBOgIILjoLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6CAguEMcBEK8BOgUIABC xAzoICC4QxwEQowI6CwguELEDEMcBEK8BOgUILhCxAzoICAAQs QMQyQM6BQgAEJIDOgsILhDHARCvARCTAjoOCC4QsQMQgwEQxwE QowI6DgguELEDEMcBEK8BEJMCOgUIABDJAzoECAAQClCdDljFM 2CmNGgGcAB4AIABfogB5wySAQQxNC40mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXd perABAA&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiir-Pb5NHxAhWlHzQIHc3PBU4Q4dUDCAk&uact=5

[3ba11]

Lebron averages 7 apg in the playoffs, is that really what youre bragging about?:roll:

For the record mike averaged 6.6 apg from 85-93


Jordan averaged 34/7/7 during his 90-93' Playoff runs where he went 3/4, while Lebron averaged 27/8/6 during the 11-14' Playoffs (2/4).

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=Za-1HILs-6U&feature=emb_title

LeBron doesn't miss easy passes like this.

[000]

Jordan averaged 34/7/7 during his 90-93' Playoff runs where he went 3/4, while Lebron averaged 27/8/6 during the 11-14' Playoffs (2/4).
Damn. If lebron had shot just 5/11 for 12 pts instead of 3/11 for 8 pts in 2011 g4, he wouldve gone 3/4. Shame he couldnt even do that against jason terry:lol

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=Za-1HILs-6U&feature=emb_title

LeBron doesn't miss easy passes like this.


Lebron misses everything because he takes forever to set up an assist and is #1 all-time in turnovers

Jordan set up dimes much faster and easier, while also averaging more assists than Lebron when you look at peak vs peak or prime vs prime.

But again, it's a useless skillset - it loses - apg is an overrated stat.. The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

[8Ball]

Jordan career playoff passing = 5.7 apg.

Giannis level.

[Airupthere]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=Za-1HILs-6U&feature=emb_title

LeBron doesn't miss easy passes like this.

Lol at the microanalysis.

the first one is a routine reverse layup that mike makes. why pass? you at the the fkn rim. lol

the second one was quite a makeable shot for him as well. why pass further out to a teammate you cant fully trust to make those shots?

You got so used to hot potato ball you no longer have confidence that at person should just attack the basket.

[3ba11]

Jordan career playoff passing = 5.7 apg.

Giannis level.


Jordan averaged 32/8/9 in 41 games at point guard in his career

Btw, it's sad that Lebron only averages 1.5 more apg than a SG like Jordan - that's pathetic considering how much Lebron dominates the ball..

Jordan's assist capability is 5-11 apg - we saw him average 10-11 apg in the 91' Finals and 89' ECSF... And 8 apg in the 89' regular season when he was called the best PG in the league and better than Magic.

But again, it's a useless skillset - it loses - apg is an overrated stat.. The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

[3ba11]

Lol at the microanalysis.

the first one is a routine reverse layup that mike makes. why pass? you at the the fkn rim. lol

the second one was quite a makeable shot for him as well. why pass further out to a teammate you cant fully trust to make those shots?


Jordan was called the best PG in the league when he played the position in 1989, and that style is a lesser way to play anyway, so it doesn't matter.. Guys that average 8 apg generally don't win

The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

[000]

Jordan career playoff passing = 5.7 apg.

Giannis level.
Lebron career playoff passing = 7.2 apg.

Clyde Drexler level.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol at the microanalysis.

the first one is a routine reverse layup that mike makes. why pass? you at the the fkn rim. lol

the second one was quite a makeable shot for him as well. why pass further out to a teammate you cant fully trust to make those shots?

You got so used to hot potato ball you no longer have confidence that at person should just attack the basket.

Phil: "Who's Open?"
MJ: "Paxson"
Phil: "Pass him the fvcking ball!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk

LeBron doesn't need a coach to tell ask him whos open.

[8Ball]

Lebron career playoff passing = 7.2 apg.

Clyde Drexler level.

Better than Jordan in that department.

Thanks for bowing out.

[Airupthere]

Jordan was called the best PG in the league when he played the position in 1989, and that style is a lesser way to play anyway, so it doesn't matter.. Guys that average 8 apg generally don't win

The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

Yessir

[000]

Better than Jordan in that department.

Thanks for bowing out.
But not better than clyde drexler apparently, by the same standard that jordan = giannis

[8Ball]

Jordan averaged 32/8/9 in 41 games at point guard in his career

Btw, it's sad that Lebron only averages 1.5 more apg than a SG like Jordan - that's pathetic considering how much Lebron dominates the ball..

Jordan's assist capability is 5-11 apg - we saw him average 10-11 apg in the 91' Finals and 89' ECSF... And 8 apg in the 89' regular season when he was called the best PG in the league and better than Magic.

But again, it's a useless skillset - it loses - apg is an overrated stat.. The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic unless the player's APG is too low or too high (too ball-dominant - anything over 8 apg needs scrutiny)

Giannis is at 5 apg.

Kyrie is at 4.8 apg.


So Jordan through eye test is about as good as Giannis in the passing department.

[3ba11]

Phil: "Who's Open?"
MJ: "Paxson"
Phil: "Pass him the fvcking ball!"


That was a lie from the original Jordan-hater, Sam Smith, who made a career lying about Jordan - Phil never said that in the huddle.

Jordan had already been averaging 11 apg in that series and he'd been passing to Paxson for game-winners long before those Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDweiVu-_GU&t=09m25s


So you're simply falling for revisionist historians and bad mainstream media coverage.. The media says that Pippen guarded Magic a lot in those Finals - another lie - Jordan was the primary defender and guarded Magic most of the series.

[000]

Giannis is at 5 apg.

Kyrie is at 4.8 apg.


So Jordan through eye test is about as good as Giannis in the passing department.
Lebrons advantage over jordan is his high IQ passing yet hes actually clyde drexler-level in that. Something doesnt add up...

[1987_Lakers]

That was a lie from the original Jordan-hater, Sam Smith, who made a career lying about Jordan - Phil never said that in the huddle.

Jordan had already been averaging 11 apg in that series and he'd been passing to Paxson for game-winners long before those Finals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDweiVu-_GU&t=09m25s


So you're simply falling for revisionist historians and bad mainstream media coverage.. The media says that Pippen guarded Magic a lot in those Finals - another lie - Jordan was the primary defender and guarded Magic most of the series.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk&feature=emb_title

Did you miss the video I posted? From MJ's own mouth. :oldlol:

[Airupthere]

Phil: "Who's Open?"
MJ: "Paxson"
Phil: "Pass him the fvcking ball!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk

LeBron doesn't need a coach to tell ask him whos open.

Same with MJ's pass to kerr. Know who you are passing to and when you will pass. Its not about merely accruing assists. If you have a better shot, like the 2 earlier videos you posted, then take it with confidence. If you know someone else that can take it that has equally or better chance of making it, then pass.

Lol at that video. Pip would have walked out.

Also, Lebron has been pushed, screamed at and disrespected by teammates many times that you dont see done with Mike. That is a good player listening to a good coach. He does not have to LeGM everything.

[3ba11]

Giannis is at 5 apg.

Kyrie is at 4.8 apg.


So Jordan through eye test is about as good as Giannis in the passing department.


Every pass that Lebron makes - Jordan makes them too but faster and doesn't need to dominate the ball like a beginner.. Lebron must sacrifice team assists and goat team offense for his personal stats.. he isn't anywhere near Jordan

[8Ball]

Jordan doesn't make these passes:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgonizingHeavyKouprey-size_restricted.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2RslIzgE6BJfHO/giphy.gif


Jordan is a Giannis level floor general.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk&feature=emb_title

Did you miss the video I posted? From MJ's own mouth. :oldlol:


That was a standard X's and O's situation that the media lied about - Phil didn't teach Jordan how to pass or find the open man in that moment - Jordan was already averaging 11 apg and knew how to find Paxson - it was just standard X's and O's but the media lied about it.. You lap it up because you can't figure anything out or evaluate for yourself.

The reality is that only Jordan averaged 10+ apg in a series without starting at PG - it's literally the best passing we've ever seen - Jordan was already a goat candidate, while Phil was a 1st time nobody coach.. So you completely misperceive the situation

[000]

Jordan doesn't make these passes:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AgonizingHeavyKouprey-size_restricted.gif


Jordan is a Giannis level floor general.
Yeah, jordan has probably never passed to an open larry nance

[3ba11]

That was a standard X's and O's situation that the media lied about - Phil didn't teach Jordan how to pass or find the open man in that moment - Jordan was already averaging 11 apg and knew how to find Paxson - it was just standard X's and O's but the media lied about it.. You lap it up because you can't figure anything out or evaluate for yourself.

The reality is that only Jordan averaged 10+ apg in a series without starting at PG - it's literally the best passing we've ever seen - Jordan was already a goat candidate, while Phil was a 1st time nobody coach.. So you completely misperceive the situation





Got it? good

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


APG is an overrated stat because high-assist players almost never win..

[ShawkFactory]

Every pass that Lebron makes - Jordan makes them too but faster and doesn't need to dominate the ball like a beginner.. Lebron must sacrifice team assists and goat team offense for his personal stats.. he isn't anywhere near Jordan

Lol nah

[8Ball]

Yeah, jordan has probably never passed to an open larry nance

Jordan is a Giannis level passer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VGgEaoFcEsBMba7xkxkEEmR4AKkAgMBfVgOxIMwhI1HjoguJfu acNGZepjxWxJU44qFI2fM4j2eLk5qlVqrarjQDdqrt8Ak516J5 7w08rjansZ4

[8Ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


APG is an overrated stat because high-assist players almost never win..

This is jordan peak jordan level passing ability:

https://i.gifer.com/GQUO.gif

[3ba11]

Jordan is a Giannis level passer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VGgEaoFcEsBMba7xkxkEEmR4AKkAgMBfVgOxIMwhI1HjoguJfu acNGZepjxWxJU44qFI2fM4j2eLk5qlVqrarjQDdqrt8Ak516J5 7w08rjansZ4


Jordan has passes like that but without the wide open spacing - Jordan had to thread needles and his passes were far superior

Ultimately, Lebron got more APG because APG is nothing - it doesn't win

[Gudo]

:oldlol: Can't believe people actually compare Jordan's passing to Giannis' just based on stats. Dafuq.

Seems like people don't watch actual basketball anymore. It's all about stats now.

[3ba11]

:oldlol: Can't believe people actually compare Jordan's passing to Giannis' just based on stats. Dafuq.


People are so dumb that this thread has become a contest of who got more APG, when the thread title is about high APG being bad and almost never winning... :hammerhead:.

[8Ball]

:oldlol: Can't believe people actually compare Jordan's passing to Giannis' just based on stats. Dafuq.

Seems like people don't watch actual basketball anymore. It's all about stats now.


Jordan's passing ability is mediocre.

On the same level as Kyrie and Giannis.

[Gudo]

Jordan's passing ability is mediocre.

On the same level as Kyrie and Giannis.

Watch games. Not boxscores.

[8Ball]

People are so dumb that this thread has become a contest of who got more APG, when the thread title is about high APG being bad and almost never winning... :hammerhead:.

LeBRon has more assists than Jordan. And more rebounds. So a better all round teammate and more skilled.

We are discussing basketball. If the facts don't make Jordan look good in that department that's too bad.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I actually agree with 3 ball here, those assist guys usually need deadly and goat level offensive players like Kareem, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis.

While Kawhi\Jordan can win with average offensive players like Lowry and Pippen.

Even Chris Paul this year, to beat the defending champions he needed Booker to average 30PPG on 63% TS

[8Ball]

Watch games. Not boxscores.

Yeah I watch the games.

LeBron has elite top 3 all time passing ability / capability.


Jordan is completely forgettable as a passer. That's why this narrative thread is falling on its face.

[8Ball]

I actually agree with 3 ball here, those assist guys usually need deadly and goat level offensive players like Kareem, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis.

While Kawhi\Jordan can win with average offensive players like Lowry and Pippen.

Even Chris Paul this year, to beat the defending champions he needed Booker to average 30PPG on 63% TS

Kawhi is a lot like Jordan. When Kawhi doesn't have playmakers to play with his teams go nowhere.

Because Kawhi and Jordan are not good at it.

[3ba11]

Kawhi is a lot like Jordan. When Kawhi doesn't have playmakers to play with his teams go nowhere.

Because Kawhi and Jordan are not good at it.


high apg is bad and almost never wins.. lebron did too much of it, while jordan did just the right amount..

[Gudo]

Jordan is a Giannis level passer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VGgEaoFcEsBMba7xkxkEEmR4AKkAgMBfVgOxIMwhI1HjoguJfu acNGZepjxWxJU44qFI2fM4j2eLk5qlVqrarjQDdqrt8Ak516J5 7w08rjansZ4

Play basketball, it's not that hard to make that pass. If you have a hot potato mentality, pass first mentality, its easier to see teammates. If Lebron had quick footwork he would have likely scored or gotten a foul in that possession, if he had a score-first mentality.

[000]

Jordan is a Giannis level passer.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VGgEaoFcEsBMba7xkxkEEmR4AKkAgMBfVgOxIMwhI1HjoguJfu acNGZepjxWxJU44qFI2fM4j2eLk5qlVqrarjQDdqrt8Ak516J5 7w08rjansZ4
One pass to a wiiiiiide open shane battier on the wing. Goat stuff.:applause:

Mj cant be the goat because he never passed to shane battier:eek:

[Gudo]

One pass to a wiiiiiide open shane battier on the wing. Goat stuff.:applause:

Also, how many times has lebron attempted a similar pass only for it to be stolen. That is but one example and people are so awed by it as if it was a magic johnson or larry bird brilliant pass. It's a fkn bailout pass.

[000]

Also, have many times has lebron attempted a similar pass only for it to be stolen. That is but one example and people are so awed by it as if it was a magic johnson or larry bird brilliant pass. It's a fkn bailout pass.
There was one time this season when lebron dribble dribble dribbled in place, stood still, did some awkward wrap around bullshit and then a regular pass to kuzma in the corner. People freaked out like hed just made that allen iverson transition pass where he went through the dudes legs. Unreal stuff

[Gudo]

What I see here is that a good passer who creates scoring opportunities for his teammates is not usually enough. Scores determine the game. Facilitating your way to a ring is not as potent as actually scoring your way to a ring. A facilitator would always need a scorer or scorers in his team. That's not a bad take.

[Gudo]

There was one time this season when lebron dribble dribble dribbled in place, stood still, did some awkward wrap around bullshit and then a regular pass to kuzma in the corner. People freaked out like hed just made that allen iverson transition pass where he went through the dudes legs. Unreal stuff

Lol, that's hilarious. Lebron tries to be fancy but he just does not have it.

[HoopsNY]

Peak MJ was one of the best passers/playmakers in the game. This is known. To compare him to Giannis is a joke, but what else do you expect from delusional Bran stans who can't admit anything about MJ because they're so obsessed with claiming their boy toy is the GOAT.

[GrayGoat]

Op talking to himself on 3 different accounts. Unhinged.

[8Ball]

There was one time this season when lebron dribble dribble dribbled in place, stood still, did some awkward wrap around bullshit and then a regular pass to kuzma in the corner. People freaked out like hed just made that allen iverson transition pass where he went through the dudes legs. Unreal stuff

There was one time this past 10 months LeBron won the championship with finals MVP.

Unreal stuff.

[8Ball]

Thread cliffs:

If NBA players were as good as LeBron passing and scoring wise they would play LeBron ball.

But most can't do both equally well.

[000]

There was one time this past 10 months LeBron won the championship with finals MVP.

Unreal stuff.
7 apg - lebrons greatest weapon.

[GrayGoat]

7 apg - lebrons greatest weapon.

You are just the spawn of Lebron’s latest chip

[8Ball]

When LeBron decided to in his 17th season, he busted out 10 assists per game and became assist leader.


Jordan in his 17th season was busy getting fat.

[000]

When LeBron decided to in his 17th season, he busted out 10 assists per game and became assist leader.


Jordan in his 17th season was busy getting fat.
When jordan actually decided to he averaged 11 apg in the finals specifically against magic johnson, the greatest passer. Something Legoat has never ever done. Meanwhile lebron only averaged 10 with Ad to throw lobs & hit ahead passes to

[8Ball]

Greatest passer had 2 assists per game in the 1998 finals :roll:

Man you get clowned so much on these forums. The new 3ball.

[000]

Greatest passer had 2 assists per game in the 1998 finals :roll:

Man you get clowned so much on these forums. The new 3ball.
Magic johnson is the greatest passer. Jordan specifically averaged 11 apg against him anyway, just to stunt on him. Just like he made 6 threes in a half one year later vs Clyde the glide.

[8Ball]

A career 30% westbrook level 3 point shooter has anything to brag now?

LeBron Led all players in points / rebounds / assists / steals / blocks / minutes in 2016.

There is nothing left to discuss in this thread.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

High apg is bad

[coastalmarker99]

.
Thread Cliffs

High apg is bad


You are forgetting to bring Wilt up in 67 when he averaged 9 assists per game on route to the title.

[HoopsNY]

You are forgetting to bring Wilt up in 67 when he averaged 9 assists per game on route to the title.

Don't bother; 3ball doesn't know what he's saying half the time. Sweeping statements (such as this one) usually gets him into trouble.

[SouBeachTalents]

I love how Jordan, Magic, Bird & Wilt all had their most dominant playoff runs averaging 8+ assists and OP still tries to argue it's a detriment to the team when it happens. Absolute fcking retard :lol

[RRR3]

I love how Jordan, Magic, Bird & Wilt all had their most dominant playoff runs averaging 8+ assists and OP still tries to argue it's a detriment to the team when it happens. Absolute fcking retard :lol
:lol

[3ba11]

I love how Jordan, Magic, Bird & Wilt all had their most dominant playoff runs averaging 8+ assists and OP still tries to argue it's a detriment to the team when it happens. Absolute fcking retard :lol


did you see the OP?

high assists mostly FAILS.. high apg is literally BAD

[HoopsNY]

I love how Jordan, Magic, Bird & Wilt all had their most dominant playoff runs averaging 8+ assists and OP still tries to argue it's a detriment to the team when it happens. Absolute fcking retard :lol

Yep; add LeBron to that who averaged 8+ assists in two championships. Add Bob Cousy also. 3ball's arguments, just like those against Pippen, continue to not make any sense.

[SouBeachTalents]

did you see the OP?

high assists mostly FAILS.. high apg is literally BAD
This is like arguing averaging 35+ ppg in the playoffs is bad and mostly fails because it's rarely been done

[3ba11]

rarely been done'





can you read?

8 apg has been done zillions of times in the playoffs or Finals and it almost never wins - see the OP or go get GED with all due respect

again, high apg is bad

The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic

[SouBeachTalents]

can you read?

8 apg has been done zillions of times in the playoffs or Finals and it almost never wins - see the OP or go get GED with all due respect

again, high apg is bad

The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic
Do you seriously believe the players you listed in the OP lost because of how many assists they averaged, not because they were going up against superior teams? There's not a single year you specified where the player in question lost with the better team, the vast majority of the time they were on the lesser team

[3ba11]

Do you seriously believe the players you listed in the OP lost because of how many assists they averaged, not because they were going up against superior teams? There's not a single year you specified where the player in question lost with the better team, the vast majority of the time they were on the lesser team


That's your convenient opinion - it means nothing - the results show that high apg nearly always loses... your excuse is that they had the inferior team all 1000 times it happened.. again, get your GED

[SouBeachTalents]

That's your convenient opinion - it means nothing - the results show that high apg nearly always loses... your excuse is that they had the inferior team all 1000 times it happened.. again, get your GED
The convenient opinion is your bullshit argument that 8 assists, and not 6-7, is a formula for losing. Tell me which season you listed for the players in question where they lost with the better team

[HoopsNY]

did you see the OP?

high assists mostly FAILS.. high apg is literally BAD

No, your argument fails when put into context.

8+ APG for Finals Victory

Cousy: '59-'63
Frazier: '70
Oscar: '71
West: '72
Magic: '80, '82, '85, '87, '88
Bird: '86
MJ: '91
LeBron: '16, '20
Curry: '17
Draymond: '18


*Honorary mentions: Jo Jo White ('74), John Johnson ('79), Larry Bird ('81), Isiah Thomas (9.0 APG in the '88 finals but Detroit should have won), Kobe ('09), LeBron ('12), LeBron ('13), KD ('18), Lowry ('19), all averaged at least 7 assists while winning the NBA finals.

Scan this list and you can clearly see that the majority of the time, the team's best player was the one getting 7-8 APG in their team's victory. And even when guys weren't getting 8 APG, they were getting 7.0-7.5 APG in the finals.

Guys like Draymond, Lowry, White, J. Johnson, A. Johnson, were not the team's best player, but guys like Steph, Oscar, and Cousy were all former MVPs.

Basically, 3ball's argument is a pile of sh!t.

[3ba11]

No, your argument fails when put into context.

8+ APG for Finals Victory

Cousy: '59-'63
Frazier: '70
Oscar: '71
West: '72
Magic: '80, '82, '85, '87, '88
Bird: '86
MJ: '91
LeBron: '16, '20
Curry: '17
Draymond: '18


*Honorary mentions: Jo Jo White ('74), John Johnson ('79), Larry Bird ('81), Isiah Thomas (9.0 APG in the '88 finals but Detroit should have won), Kobe ('09), LeBron ('12), LeBron ('13), KD ('18), Lowry ('19), all averaged at least 7 assists while winning the NBA finals.

Scan this list and you can clearly see that the majority of the time, the team's best player was the one getting 7-8 APG in their team's victory. And even when guys weren't getting 8 APG, they were getting 7.0-7.5 APG in the finals.

Guys like Draymond, Lowry, White, J. Johnson, A. Johnson, were not the team's best player, but guys like Steph, Oscar, and Cousy were all former MVPs.

Basically, 3ball's argument is a pile of sh!t.


you included the Finals (instead of just playoffs), and you included instances where it wasn't that player's title (they had a superior sidekick)

yet you could only come up with 11 times in 3-pointer history, compared to hundreds of failures - you guys are making my point - high apg doesn't work... :hammerhead:

if we just look at the playoffs as a whole and exclude instances where the player wasn't the highest-ranked player on their team, there's 5 instances where it succeeded in the playoffs, and hundreds of failures

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


In the history of 3-pointer basketball, there's 11 instances of a player winning the title while averaging 8+ assists in either the playoffs or Finals, and hundreds of failures.

If we only look at the playoffs and players that were the highest ranked player on their team, then there's 5 successes and hundreds of failures...

Accordingly, high apg is bad and almost never wins.

The entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic

[HoopsNY]

you included the Finals (instead of just playoffs), and you included instances where it wasn't that player's title (they had a superior sidekick)

yet you could only come up with 11 times in 3-pointer history, compared to hundreds of failures - you guys are making my point - high apg doesn't work... :hammerhead:

if we just look at the playoffs as a whole and exclude instances where the player wasn't the highest-ranked player on their team, there's 5 instances where it succeeded in the playoffs, and hundreds of failures

You're isolating and cherry picking as usual. What this boils down to is all-around games of players being on championship teams. Fact of the matter is that it was done, even by MJ. So the fact that guys like MJ did it is just a proof that it works, just as it did with guys like LeBron, Magic, Bird, Cousy, Oscar, Frazier, West, etc.

You're desperately trying to isolate the data. Just give up. Go back to those championship teams and check to see how many had all-around guys. When they did, some of them won. Who were the all-around players on the 5 championship Spurs teams? Or the Pistons? Or the Rockets? That's what this really boils down to.

[3ba11]

You're isolating and cherry picking as usual. What this boils down to is all-around games of players being on championship teams. Fact of the matter is that it was done, even by MJ. So the fact that guys like MJ did it is just a proof that it works, just as it did with guys like LeBron, Magic, Bird, Cousy, Oscar, Frazier, West, etc.

You're desperately trying to isolate the data. Just give up. Go back to those championship teams and check to see how many had all-around guys. When they did, some of them won. Who were the all-around players on the 5 championship Spurs teams? Or the Pistons? Or the Rockets? That's what this really boils down to.


So we've determined that high apg has a horrific success rate, aka doesn't win.. Thanks for helping get to the bottom of it.

But again, the entire idea of a high-assist ball-dominator "making guys better" by turning them into spot-up shooters is entirely wrong and flawed.. Accordingly, personal APG is a somewhat meaningless statistic.. It's only important if it's too low (below 4), or too high (above 8), as we've demonstrated itt.. again, kudos..