Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing. Goat#2?

[And1AllDay]

Is that the goat #2?

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing

[GrayGoat]

I’m still waiting on the Boobie Gibson vs Pippen discussion. I know they are close but I need to know who the better player is.

[MadDog]

Why would that make Pippen a #2 GOAT? :confusedshrug: Pippen's Playoff BPM was also lower than Kukoc's in 94. In the 94 & 95 playoffs, he ranked #8 overall.

[And1AllDay]

Why would that Pippen #2? :confusedshrug: Pippen's Playoff BPM was also lower than Kukoc's in 94. In the 94 & 95 playoffs, he ranked #8 overall.

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing. Goat#2?

[MadDog]

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing. Goat#2?

Hold up. You saying Kukoc was a better playoff performer than them?

[And1AllDay]

Hold up. You saying Kukoc was a better playoff performer than them?

we comparing bench players now? :oldlol:

we gottem squirmin now bois :oldlol:

:dancin

[And1AllDay]

btw - these ether spinoff threads are why i know 3ball and his alts are pro lebran there is no other explained reason for his always ethering himself each thread.

[MadDog]

we comparing bench players now? :oldlol:

we gottem squirmin now bois :oldlol:

:dancin

Thought we were comparing numbers? :confusedshrug: What's the matter? You shooting blanks, boy? lol

[And1AllDay]

Thought we were comparing numbers? :confusedshrug: What's the matter? You shooting blanks, boy? lol

if you really wanna go 3rd option and bench guys check horrace grants playoffs off rtg in bulls runs

blasted mike out the water. so grant is the better offensive player? :oldlol
check mate :pimp:

[ImKobe]

Lower WS/48, BPM & VORP than Stockton & D-Rob.

[MadDog]

if you really wanna go 3rd option and bench guys check horrace grants playoffs off rtg in bulls runs

blasted mike out the water. so grant is the better offensive player? :oldlol
check mate :pimp:

Settle down, class is still in session. You're talking about role players - but why didn't Grant or Kukoc ever have a higher BPM than Jordan?

[And1AllDay]

Settle down, class is still in session. You're talking about role players - but why didn't Grant or Kukoc ever have a higher BPM than Jordan?

this boi ducking me now :oldlol:

2020 acct = student, 1 yr old infant

[MadDog]

this boi ducking me now :oldlol:

2020 acct = student, 1 yr old infant

Your thread is on "BPM" though. Again, the subject is 94 and 95 Pippen. So why did 94 Kukoc average a higher BPM in the playoffs, but never had a higher BPM than Jordan? Remember to stay on topic :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Why would that make Pippen a #2 GOAT? :confusedshrug: Pippen's Playoff BPM was also lower than Kukoc's in 94. In the 94 & 95 playoffs, he ranked #8 overall.

That's such a small sample size though bro. Not to mention Kukoc is going against bench players. We have to apply context.

[MadDog]

That's such a small sample size though bro. Not to mention Kukoc I'd going against bench players. We have to apply context.

True. But unlike VORP, BPM is a per game RATE stat. For comparison sake, LeBron nor Jordan were ever outdone by their #2. Or a role player, like we see here.

[Bronbron23]

Is that the goat #2?

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing

So a higher bpm means better? This is your argument

[97 bulls]

True. But unlike VORP, BPM is a per game RATE stat. For comparison sake, LeBron nor Jordan were ever outdone by their #2. Or a role player, like we see here.

Pippen isn't considered by anyone to be the 2nd or Greatest basketball player ever though.

I think the point is to show that Pippen was on the level of the guys mentioned. Which I agree with outside of Olajuwan.

[theman93]

Is that the goat #2?

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing

Player A has a BPM of 9.2

Player B has a BPM of 8.9

Who is better?

[MadDog]

Pippen isn't considered by anyone to be the 2nd or Greatest basketball player ever though.

I think the point is to show that Pippen was on the level of the guys mentioned. Which I agree with outside of Olajuwan.

The numbers also show Pippen with less playoff impact than Toni. I don't put much weight in BPM, but if we're gonna use it, and for these exact years, then lets keep it consistent. Not sure Pippen was on the level of 95 Shaq or 94 Barkley, either. Ewing probably had more impact also, but I can see why you'd think Pippen was on equal footing. Agree with you on Hakeem.

[And1AllDay]

Player A has a BPM of 9.2

Player B has a BPM of 8.9

Who is better?

in 94 and 95?

starter or bench player?

check

[RogueBorg]

Pippen isn't considered by anyone to be the 2nd or Greatest basketball player ever though.

I think the point is to show that Pippen was on the level of the guys mentioned. Which I agree with outside of Olajuwan.

We were both there in the 90's, are you telling me if New York called wanted trade Ewing for Pippen the Bulls wouldn't have? You're absolutely crazy if you think Chicago wouldn't have made that trade. The same is true of a bunch of players I'm sure.

Chicago almost traded him for Kemp. That tells me Chicago didn't think all that highly of Pippen. I'll bet most people here think Kemp was a scrub, he wasn't, but as time passes he's not highly regarded.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-basketball-shawn-kemp-reveals-chicago-bulls-almost-traded-scottie-pippen-for-him/

[Bronbron23]

in 94 and 95?

starter or bench player?

check

Starter. Does higher bpm equal better?

[Hey Yo]

We were both there in the 90's, are you telling me if New York called wanted trade Ewing for Pippen the Bulls wouldn't have? You're absolutely crazy if you think Chicago wouldn't have made that trade. The same is true of a bunch of players I'm sure.

Chicago almost traded him for Kemp. That tells me Chicago didn't think all that highly of Pippen. I'll bet most people here think Kemp was a scrub, he wasn't, but as time passes he's not highly regarded.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-basketball-shawn-kemp-reveals-chicago-bulls-almost-traded-scottie-pippen-for-him/

Once MJ caught wind of the possible trade and threatening to quit again if he was ..... Pip was off the table to any future trades.

[theman93]

in 94 and 95?

starter or bench player?

check

Starter.

[jayfan]

BPM is measured relative to other players on the same team. The less help your teammates give, the higher your BPM is likely to be.

Jordan career BPM: 9.22
Lebron career BPM: 8.89


In conclusion, Lebron had more help than Jordan.


.

[theman93]

OP just admitted Jordan is better than Lebron lol.

Check. Mate.

[97 bulls]

We were both there in the 90's, are you telling me if New York called wanted trade Ewing for Pippen the Bulls wouldn't have? You're absolutely crazy if you think Chicago wouldn't have made that trade. The same is true of a bunch of players I'm sure.

Chicago almost traded him for Kemp. That tells me Chicago didn't think all that highly of Pippen. I'll bet most people here think Kemp was a scrub, he wasn't, but as time passes he's not highly regarded.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-news-basketball-shawn-kemp-reveals-chicago-bulls-almost-traded-scottie-pippen-for-him/

At that time? Probably not. But looking back? And seeing how Ewings career played out? He want good enough to lead a team to the championship. And he had 10 plus years to accomplish that. Pippen never had that opportunity.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Due to his goat defense, ball handling, play making, iq, athleticism

I would have him as the clear cut 4th greatest wing player in nba history. Only kawhi, LeBron, Durant are better.

Larry bird would be a power forward in today's game i think, too slow.

[r0drig0lac]

yep OP, Goat...

[And1AllDay]

Starter. Does higher bpm equal better?

in 94 and 95?

check mate

[theman93]

MJ: 9-time BPM league leader
Lebron: 7-time BPM league leader

Jordan wins again.

[3ba11]

Pippen had higher BPM in 94 & 95 than Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone & Ewing. Goat#2?


Wade had higher BPM in 2012 than any year of Pippen's career.

And Wade was #2 in everything in 2010 - BPM, PER, WS/48 and VORP - his BPM was 9.2 compared to Kobe's 4.4, while Bosh was a 6x all-star before Lebron compared to 1x for Pau before Kobe.. So Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II but went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss.. Let that sink in (how much help this fool had, aka Kobe/Pau, yet mostly losses)

[Bronbron23]

in 94 and 95?

check mate

Whatever u just argued bron behind mj as goat. Great job dummy:oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

OP just admitted Jordan is better than Lebron lol.

Check. Mate.

This bron stains do this shit all the time. What idiots:facepalm

[And1AllDay]

btw - these ether spinoff threads are why i know 3ball and his alts are pro lebran there is no other explained reason for his always ethering himself each thread.

[3ba11]

btw - these ether spinoff threads are why i know 3ball and his alts are pro lebran there is no other explained reason for his always ethering himself each thread.


When was Pippen top 5 in all categories like elite 1st options Love, AD, or Wade?.. (PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP)

Wade was top 5 in everything in 2012, including higher BPM than any year of Pippen's career.

Pippen's peaks (peak capability) is complete trash compared to Love, Wade, Kyrie, or AD

[RogueBorg]

At that time? Probably not. But looking back? And seeing how Ewings career played out? He want good enough to lead a team to the championship. And he had 10 plus years to accomplish that. Pippen never had that opportunity.

I think Ewing was but he suffered from his prime coming in the era he played in. There was no way his Knicks or anyone else were beating the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons in the 80's, and their best shot in the 90's were '93 and '94, but his teammates couldn't score. Ewing is the one player from the 90's I feel bad for the most. He was a great center, people now have no idea how great he was because all they can do is is look at the front page of Basketball Reference. He wasn't a better defender than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Mutombo, those three got all the accolades, but he was still a great defender. New York never surrounded him with another quality player really his entire career. But it was a different era. Superstars from other teams didn't look to team up. It was basically dance with the ones that brought ya mentality.

[97 bulls]

I think Ewing was but he suffered from his prime coming in the era he played in. There was no way his Knicks or anyone else were beating the Celtics, Lakers, and Pistons in the 80's, and their best shot in the 90's were '93 and '94, but his teammates couldn't score. Ewing is the one player from the 90's I feel bad for the most. He was a great center, people now have no idea how great he was because all they can do is is look at the front page of Basketball Reference. He wasn't a better defender than Olajuwon, Robinson, or Mutombo, those three got all the accolades, but he was still a great defender. New York never surrounded him with another quality player really his entire career. But it was a different era. Superstars from other teams didn't look to team up. It was basically dance with the ones that brought ya mentality.

You may be right. I mean let’s face it. If the Knicks could barely beat the Bulls without MJ, They really had no shot against the Bulls with. The Knicks FO definitely couldVe done a better job at getting Ewing a perimeter scorer.

Saying that, I just canÂ’t understand why this logic isnÂ’t applied with Scottie Pippen. Take Scottie Pippen off the Bulls and Ewing off the Knicks in 94 and IÂ’d give the edge to the Knicks. Why is Pippen the only player that was expected to win the one year, the one and only year he had without Jordan? And who was his Pippen? Who was his number 2?

Are we really basing Scottie Pippen off of 1 series vs a team that was the number 1 ranked defense that year?

[3ba11]

You may be right. I mean let’s face it. If the Knicks could barely beat the Bulls without MJ, They really had no shot against the Bulls with. The Knicks FO definitely couldVe done a better job at getting Ewing a perimeter scorer.

Saying that, I just canÂ’t understand why this logic isnÂ’t applied with Scottie Pippen. Take Scottie Pippen off the Bulls and Ewing off the Knicks in 94 and IÂ’d give the edge to the Knicks. Why is Pippen the only player that was expected to win the one year, the one and only year he had without Jordan? And who was his Pippen? Who was his number 2?

Are we really basing Scottie Pippen off of 1 series vs a team that was the number 1 ranked defense that year?


Jordan beat Ewing 4 times and 3 of those times Pippen was outplayed (89', 92', 96')

So Jordan is starching Ewing regardless of the stats he gets from his 2nd option, as those series show clearly

[97 bulls]

Jordan beat Ewing 4 times and 3 of those times Pippen was outplayed (89', 92', 96')

So Jordan is starching Ewing regardless of the stats he gets from his 2nd option, as those series show clearly

Pippen had a great 89 series. It’s not his fault Jordan takes so many shots. He had a bad shooting 92 but made up for it in 93. He was hurt in 96.

[3ba11]

Pippen had a great 89 series. It’s not his fault Jordan takes so many shots. He had a bad shooting 92 but made up for it in 93. He was hurt in 96.


14.8 ppg is role player stats, which forced Jordan to average 36/10/8 and 2.5 steals with 1.3 blocks.

But again, Jordan always beat Ewing, regardless of his sidekick performance

[97 bulls]

14.8 ppg is role player stats, which forced Jordan to average 36/10/8 and 2.5 steals with 1.3 blocks.

But again, Jordan always beat Ewing, regardless of his sidekick performance

And again, You can’t penalize Pippen because of Jordan choosing to take so many shots.

[3ba11]

And again, You can’t penalize Pippen because of Jordan choosing to take so many shots.


Pippen's weak efficiency for the vast majority of his career and most playoff series proves that he wasn't capable of taking more shots - his efficiency was good in that particular series, but in general it was weak and worthy of LESS shots, not more.. He shot 40% and 33% against the 92' Knicks and 96' Knicks, respectively.. Jordan still won of course, and he did so by famously confronting X-man in 1992 to prevent Pippen from getting another migraine - Jordan had learned to be the enforcer for Pippen to help Pippen through the high-pressure times - he stated this too in the documentary.. This was part of Jordan's "organic winning learning curve".. it's a steep curve and only the most skilled can climb the mountain because it requires adjusting to teammates and learning superior strategy.. There's no star scorer at 3rd option on organic teams (no talent-based winning), so they must play better BASKETBALL to win.. Being the enforcer for Pippen was a small part of that, along with becoming more of a jumpshooter in general.

[97 bulls]

Pippen's weak efficiency for the vast majority of his career and most playoff series proves that he wasn't capable of taking more shots - his efficiency was good in that particular series, but in general it was weak and worthy of LESS shots, not more.. He shot 40% and 33% against the 92' Knicks and 96' Knicks, respectively.. Jordan still won of course, and he did so by famously confronting X-man in 1992 to prevent Pippen from getting another migraine - Jordan had learned to be the enforcer for Pippen to help Pippen through the high-pressure times - he stated this too in the documentary.. This was part of Jordan's "organic winning learning curve".. it's a steep curve and only the most skilled can climb the mountain because it requires adjusting to teammates and learning superior strategy.. There's no star scorer at 3rd option on organic teams (no talent-based winning), so they must play better BASKETBALL to win.. Being the enforcer for Pippen was a small part of that, along with becoming more of a jumpshooter in general.

Perhaps had Pippen quit and leave his team high and dry for almost 2 years, his stats would be better. Because his body couldve recouped as well. But they were damn good. The most important part is that he won.

[3ba11]

Perhaps had Pippen quit and leave his team high and dry for almost 2 years, his stats would be better. Because his body couldve recouped as well. But they were damn good. The most important part is that he won.


if Jordan had lost to Barkley, he would never have taken his ball and gone home (retired).. He would've trudged forward just like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade after their failed 3-peat attempts

So ultimately, it was Jordan's unprecedented winning and dominance (3-peat and 40 ppg) that gave him the luxury to retire.

That's the correct way to perceive what happened - so don't listen to the media's reporting - if they ever asked Jordan "would you have retired if you lost to Barkley", he would say hell no.. but the media doesn't understand the game at a high level, so they ask crap questions that Popovich hates.

[HoopsNY]

In just 11/13 full seasons with Chicago, MJ led the league in:

PER: 7x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has needed 18 full seasons and still has been unable to match these numbers in what MJ did within his first 11 full seasons.

One of my arguments as to why MJ is still above LeBron is dominance. This is just another example.

[theman93]

In just 11/13 full seasons with Chicago, MJ led the league in:

PER: 7x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has needed 18 full seasons and still has been unable to match these numbers in what MJ did within his first 11 full seasons.

One of my arguments as to why MJ is still above LeBron is dominance. This is just another example.

Don't forget DBPM in which Jordan also led the league in twice.

Lebron only led the league in DBPM once.

[RRR3]

In just 11/13 full seasons with Chicago, MJ led the league in:

PER: 7x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has needed 18 full seasons and still has been unable to match these numbers in what MJ did within his first 11 full seasons.

One of my arguments as to why MJ is still above LeBron is dominance. This is just another example.
LeBron wasn’t playing against literal grocery baggers. Harder to stand out against a more even playing field.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron wasn’t playing against literal grocery baggers. Harder to stand out against a more even playing field.

So the 80s was garbage now, too, for LeBron stans? That's interesting. Before it was, "the 90s sucked," now it's the 80s, too, which they all praise as being the "super-team era" whereas the 90s was the "watered down expansion era."

MJ led in those categories in both the 80s and the 90s. Once again Bran stans have their own arguments used against them. When all else fails, just claim the competition sucked, which included guys like Magic, Bird, Barkley, Hakeem, Isiah, Malone, Robinson, Nique, McHale, etc.

I'm curious, show me your Top 10 greatest players of all-time. Let's see if they consist of anyone pre-2010 :lol

[HoopsNY]

Don't forget DBPM in which Jordan also led the league in twice.

Lebron only led the league in DBPM once.

Good point.

[And1AllDay]

LeBron wasn’t playing against literal grocery baggers. Harder to stand out against a more even playing field.

:oldlol::oldlol:

[3ba11]

In just 11/13 full seasons with Chicago, MJ led the league in:

PER: 7x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has needed 18 full seasons and still has been unable to match these numbers in what MJ did within his first 11 full seasons.

One of my arguments as to why MJ is still above LeBron is dominance. This is just another example.


damn facts gonna facts

it's easy to see that jordan is the best by watching his scoring in rapid succession to get a feel for his game, touch, and scoring instinct - it's simply unmatched

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUqOTwDgorg&t=34m36s

[Axe]

That '94 playoff run where they pushed the knicks to seven games in the ecsf without hca was remarkable.

[RogueBorg]

In just 11/13 full seasons with Chicago, MJ led the league in:

PER: 7x
WS: 9x
WS/48: 8x
OBPM: 9x
BPM: 9x
VORP: 9x

LeBron has needed 18 full seasons and still has been unable to match these numbers in what MJ did within his first 11 full seasons.

One of my arguments as to why MJ is still above LeBron is dominance. This is just another example.

Good point OP, longevity does work work against Lebron as well.

4/18<6/15

[RogueBorg]

You may be right. I mean let’s face it. If the Knicks could barely beat the Bulls without MJ, They really had no shot against the Bulls with. The Knicks FO definitely couldVe done a better job at getting Ewing a perimeter scorer.

Saying that, I just canÂ’t understand why this logic isnÂ’t applied with Scottie Pippen. Take Scottie Pippen off the Bulls and Ewing off the Knicks in 94 and IÂ’d give the edge to the Knicks. Why is Pippen the only player that was expected to win the one year, the one and only year he had without Jordan? And who was his Pippen? Who was his number 2?

Are we really basing Scottie Pippen off of 1 series vs a team that was the number 1 ranked defense that year?

Let's be honest, the Bulls wouldn't have beat the Knicks without Scottie Pippen, no one player can do it all. They probably don't beat them without Horace either. The only reason we're seeing Pippen bashing is the Lebronstans prop Pippen up to knock Jordan down. The Jordanstans respond by saying Pippen wasn't as good as they're propping him up to be, that's all it is. But you and I are Bulls fans, we actually watched them in the 90's, Pippen was a great player. And as Michael has admitted, you wouldn't say Michael Jordan if there wasn't Scottie Pippen.