Larry Bird on Pippen in his book "Bird Watching"

[Carbine]

"Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

Take that for what you want.

[3ba11]

2nd options can't make up for sub-par scoring with defense because spotty scorers that play good defense are defensive role players, not 2nd option stars..

Pippen's peak of 22/5 and 2nd round loss is a top 1000 peak matched by bums like Larry Hughes.. Otherwise, he routinely averaged 16 on 40% - that was his standard.. He has 20 series of 16 ppg or less, and only 4 of them had over 42% shooting... Paul George would be crucified for that type of performance - today's social media would never let anyone get away with that.. But Pippen got away with it because no one tracked his performance or cared - only MJ was held responsible for winning - so people aren't aware that Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, or that he nearly derailed the repeat in 92' ECSF when he was destroyed by X-man, or that he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. The winning spotlight and association with MJ simply inflated Pippen and gave him a few extra all-nba that he didn't deserve, similar to Kobe getting a few extra all-defense that he didn't deserve - that's what the winning spotlight and association with MJ does..

And we can prove that Pippen is overrated - he was barely top 50 in 1996 and dozens of new guys like Lebron or Kobe have passed him since, yet he's now ranked top 30 by many.. This mis-ranking occurs because the on-paper evaluations of new fans only see the 6 rings and overrate him compared to the zero rings of Ewing or Giannis.. So Pippen gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, which is unfair - imagine if Klay was ranked over Beal or Harden due to rings - that's the treatment Pippen gets.. Pippen is just the low-producing bum that came along after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win - and anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format..

Ultimately, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half their rings - they needed a teammate to match them for ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUNS, whereas Jordan outscored his sidekick in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg (15 ppg average margin).. This proves that no one is remotely close to MJ - he carried teams like no other.. Jordan also got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year and averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - Jordan's assist percentage in the playoffs is 33% higher than Pippen's, so he was assisting 33% more often than Pippen.

[SATAN]

"Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

Take that for what you want.

Best second option in history. Seems reasonable.

[3ba11]

.

Sourced quotes on Pippen from players, coaches and reporters in the past and present:.



COLIN COWHERD:


"Pippen was a defensive role player - he wasn't the guy you ran plays for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s



SPORTS REPORTER:


"Pippen frequently couldn't score - he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbzR2W1JGGQ&t=06m15s



LONGTIME CHICAGO REPORTER CRESTFALLEN ABOUT PIPPEN:


"I defended Pippen for years and now his comments about Phil make me feel like a scorned lover - maybe Pippen is the problem after all.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S9NOdvj1QY&t=50s



BILL LAIMBEER:


"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires. And you can't win championships like that, with only one player."."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-jordan-rules-what-the-last-dance-documentary-doesnt-say-about-pistons-defense-against-michael-jordan/amp/



SHAQ TALKING ABOUT PIPPEN:


"I don't let bums (https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2533220-shaquille-oneal-sounds-off-on-scottie-pippen-while-explaining-instagram-feud.amp.html) disrespect me..."

"Don't make me pull up the scouting report. You wasn't even a factor on the scouting report. It was all about Mike."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2533220-shaquille-oneal-sounds-off-on-scottie-pippen-while-explaining-instagram-feud.amp.html

"You did okay, but MJ did most of the work"

"yes THE GREAT MICHAEL JORDAN GOT YOU SIX RINGS , but you will always be remembered as MR 2nd FIDDLE."

"See what happens when Michael Jordan ain't protecting you, you lose a 17 pt lead in the fourth quarter." (referring to 2000 WCF Game 7)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/nba-star-shaquille-oneal-slams-scotty-pippin-in-social-media-squabble/amp/



JERRY KRAUSE, BULLS GM:


“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHUCK DALY:


"It doesn't entail me playing you necessarily... it's our 5.... playing... you."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gCMWuCdsGQ&t=27m41s



CHUCK DALY:


"We knew how dangerous he was and we knew going into the playoffs that we had to do something special.. So we most definitely devised what we called "the Jordan Rules""

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s



BILL LAIMBEER:


"The Jordan Rules were to just stop him, because no one else could beat you on that ballclub"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2v0LOhjsJs&t=1m22s



PHIL JACKSON:


"Don't leave Michael all alone here. It's not time YET."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=30m20s

This was Phil Jackson during a huddle in the 1991 NBA Finals, showing how the everyday game plan was to leave Michael alone and let him do everything down the stretch of games.



DUMARS AND ISIAH:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and i were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

"Isiah called me at 3 in the morning and said 'I think i finally figured out a way to stop MJ"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s

This was Dumars' and Isiah's reaction to the Bulls taking 2-1 series lead in 1989 ECF after MJ hit GW over Rodman.. The last quote is from assistant coach Brendan Malone, who said that Isiah called at 3 am to talk about stopping MJ.



HORACE GRANT:


"If it wasn't for MJ, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I mean, would've had a decent career, but for a leader like that to lead you to 3 championships..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aYOQVWSCY&t=14m44s


SCOTTIE PIPPEN:


"It was the pressure. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s

This was Pippen in the Bad Boys documentary ADMITTING he the pressure caused him to disappear in 1990 ECF Game 7 - this cost the Bulls a trip to the Finals and the ring - (Bulls would've beaten Blazers - Blazers lost in 5 easy games to Pistons, while Bulls took then 7.



Jordan had an established reputation for bummy casts and his carry-job identity is where terms like "supporting cast" and "jordannaires" literally originated.

So even if you're too young and weren't there, the quotes above sing the same song, along with the STATS, which always tell the story - if Lebron had "bums" in 2009 despite the #3 defense and an all-star teammate, then Jordan had bums in 1990 when he had the #19 defense and a far less productive teammate (lower BPM, VORP, WS/48, PER, scoring, efficiency).

Ultimately, Jordan had the least supporting talent of any dynasty because he was forced to produce the most raw offensive production of all time (as measured by points + assists):

43.3 points and 7.4 assists per 100 possessions in the playoffs... no one is close.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bird's eye for talent they say.

I'll take his word on it. Really though, the years Mike played baseball, Pip was definitely near 5. In 1994, he finished Top 3 in MVP voting and made 1st Team All-NBA/All-Defense.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRY9bZTPVr0

[3ba11]

.
.
Pippen's greatest chokes:


1) The "migraine" - Game 7 of 1990 ECF


2) The "sit out" game - Game 3 of 1994 ECSF with Kukoc GW


3) Lost 17 pt lead in 4th quarter of 2000 WCF


4) The Hubert Davis foul (shown below):



Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif



And Pippen was making dumb fouls to lose games all the time:


* Pippen lost Game 3 of the 91' Finals by fouling out against Vlade on the last possession, until MJ hits the tying shot and dominates the OT without Pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDn58T5Ujso&t=07m34s


* Here's Pippen fouling Sam Perkins and losing a game against the 90' Mavericks, except Jordan found Paxson for a last-second winner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SD36-aVeJs&t=05m21s


* Pippen misses 2 FT's right before Reggie Miller's legendary winner in Game 4 of the 98' ECF (Rodman had offensive foul the very previous possession as well):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eonuW7tQMQs&t=03m50s


* Pippen cost the Bulls 70 wins in 1997 by air-balling a wide open game-winner in the final game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6NX0i5b5mI&t=09m53s

[3ba11]

It's clear that the people saying Pippen sucks outnumber the political comments from teammates trying to boost his confidence or other guys trying to play devil's advocate

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It's clear that the people saying Pippen sucks outnumber the political comments from teammates trying to boost his confidence

Then what was Larry's motive? :lol

[3ba11]

Then what was Larry's motive? :lol


the negative comments, chokes, "Pandemic P" performances and bad facts vastly outnumber the few political comments people occasionally made about Pippen (see previous posts).

Shaq and Kenny Smith said Pippen was never on the scouting report, and other guys said Pippen couldn't hit water if he was in boat (all quotes sourced above, unlike the OP).

People say sparkling things about Andre Roberson or Draymond Green if you google search for their entire career.. It doesn't mean shit compared the consensus and facts about Pippen's Pandemic P career and many quotes to the contrary (shown above).. Pippen played like Pandemic P for his entire career - the stats and facts show this clearly.. But the winning spotlight concealed it and inflated him.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

A lot of people say dumb stuff about 6-time champions.. And yet it's still the exception - the negative comments, chokes, "Pandemic P" performances and bad facts vastly outnumber the few political comments people occasionally made about Pippen (see previous posts).

So you're focusing in on 1 comment and ignoring the many more comments like Shaq or Kenny Smith said Pippen was never on the scouting report, or guys saying Pippen couldn't hit water if he was in boat

People make good comments about ANY pro if do a google search of their entire career.. People say sparkling things about Andre Roberson or Draymond Green.. Doesn't mean shit compared the consensus and facts about Pippen's Pandemic P career (shown above)

I mean, we can find high praise from a bunch of Pip's peers.

You quoted guys like Grant, Isiah, Chuck Daly and Phil. There are quotes on the internet by those same people giving Pip love. You can't complain about winning spotlight or whatever, but then use those same people to tear him down.

But I'm sure you already knew that. This is all part of your shtick. :lol

[3ba11]

I mean, we can find high praise from a bunch of Pip's peers.

You quoted guys like Grant, Isiah, Chuck Daly and Phil. There are quotes on the internet by those same people giving Pip love. You can't complain about winning spotlight or whatever, but then use those same guys to tear him down.

But I'm sure you already knew that. This is all part of your shtick. :lol


None of those guys gave Pippen love.. You're just making up your own facts.. I sourced my quotes, and you made stuff up

carry on

Shaq and Kenny Smith said Pippen was never on the scouting report, and other guys said Pippen couldn't hit water if he was in boat - these are sourced quotes, not delusions like you and the OP.

People say sparkling things about Andre Roberson or Draymond Green if you google search for their entire career.. It doesn't mean shit compared the consensus and facts about Pippen's Pandemic P career and many quotes to the contrary (shown above).. Pippen played like Pandemic P for his entire career - the stats and facts show this clearly.. But the winning spotlight concealed it and inflated him.

I literally provided about 20 different quotes and video of overt chokes or people trashing Pippen, and you made stuff up in response

[8Ball]

2nd options can't make up for sub-par scoring with defense because spotty scorers that play good defense are defensive role players, not 2nd option stars..

Pippen's peak of 22/5 and 2nd round loss is a top 1000 peak matched by bums like Larry Hughes.. Otherwise, he routinely averaged 16 on 40% - that was his standard.. He has 20 series of 16 ppg or less, and only 4 of them had over 42% shooting... Paul George would be crucified for that type of performance - today's social media would never let anyone get away with that.. But Pippen got away with it because no one tracked his performance or cared - only MJ was held responsible for winning - so people aren't aware that Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, or that he nearly derailed the repeat in 92' ECSF when he was destroyed by X-man, or that he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. The winning spotlight and association with MJ simply inflated Pippen and gave him a few extra all-nba that he didn't deserve, similar to Kobe getting a few extra all-defense that he didn't deserve - that's what the winning spotlight and association with MJ does..

And we can prove that Pippen is overrated - he was barely top 50 in 1996 and dozens of new guys like Lebron or Kobe have passed him since, yet he's now ranked top 30 by many.. This mis-ranking occurs because the on-paper evaluations of new fans only see the 6 rings and overrate him compared to the zero rings of Ewing or Giannis.. So Pippen gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, which is unfair - imagine if Klay was ranked over Beal or Harden due to rings - that's the treatment Pippen gets.. Pippen is just the low-producing bum that came along after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win - and anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format..

Ultimately, everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half their rings - they needed a teammate to match them for ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUNS, whereas Jordan outscored his sidekick in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg (15 ppg average margin).. This proves that no one is remotely close to MJ - he carried teams like no other.. Jordan also got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year and averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - Jordan's assist percentage in the playoffs is 33% higher than Pippen's, so he was assisting 33% more often than Pippen.

Meltdown.


"Pippen was the second best player in the league through the '90s."


https://www.sbnation.com/2015/9/9/9290999/nba-90s-scottie-pippen-michael-jordan

[3ba11]

Meltdown.




https://www.sbnation.com/2015/9/9/9290999/nba-90s-scottie-pippen-michael-jordan


Another dumb reporter saying something 20 years after the fact that would never have flown in the 90's..

No one said that crap in the 90's... All your quotes will be from recent reporters who are pushing for Lebron.

[8Ball]

Another dumb reporter saying something 20 years after the fact that would never have flown in the 90's..

No one said that crap in the 90's... All your quotes will be from recent reporters who are pushing for Lebron.


NBA.com Rankings by votes:


5. Scottie Pippen

Pippen was a top 5 player in the 90s by NBA.com.

https://ca.nba.com/news/power-rankings-the-best-players-from-the-1990s/mu5pb494xop81wfdvi7yp5yrj



The voting totals below are the combined tallies from nine of our writers. A first-place vote was worth 15 points, a second-place worth 14 points, a third-place vote worth 13 points and continuing all the way down to one point for a 15th-place vote.

Pippen got so many votes by historians that he was a top 5 player in the 90s.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRY9bZTPVr0


Listen to how the reporter reacts to Phil's obvious exaggeration to boost Pippen's fragile confidence

Phil: Pippen is the best all-round player in the game

Reporter: "REALLY" (incredulous)

[8Ball]

Dennis Rodman:


“He revolutionized the point-forward position. All these players today should thank Scottie Pippen. Guys like Kevin Durant should say, ‘Wow, look what you did for us.’ Scottie could handle, he could shoot the ball, he could defend, he could rebound.

“Scottie Pippen was the second-best player behind Michael.”

[3ba11]

NBA.com Rankings by votes:



Pippen was a top 5 player in the 90s by NBA.com.

https://ca.nba.com/news/power-rankings-the-best-players-from-the-1990s/mu5pb494xop81wfdvi7yp5yrj




Pippen got so many votes by historians that he was a top 5 player in the 90s.


Another bullshit article from 2020

No one was saying that nonsense in the 90's

It's just you lebron fans trying to inflate a player who's entire career, stats and performance are worse then Pandemic P - this is the historical record

[3ba11]

Dennis Rodman:


Rodman and Kim Jung Un?

again, more bullshit.

Shaq and Kenny Smith said that Pippen wasn't on the scouting report

[8Ball]

Another bullshit article from 2020

No one was saying that nonsense in the 90's

It's just you lebron fans trying to inflate a player who's entire career, stats and performance are worse then Pandemic P - this is the historical record

WRONG

Dennis Rodman:


"If you notice about Scottie Pippen, when Michael Jordan left in '93, '94, '95 -- Scottie Pippen was the best player in the world," Rodman said. "If people didn't know that, he led the team in every category. Every category. Scottie got his wings in 1991 when [the Bulls] beat the Detroit Pistons. When Michael left, Scottie took over and next thing you know he was the best player in the world. People don't know that."

[3ba11]

WRONG

Dennis Rodman:


Those are recent comments - no one thought Pippen was good in the 90's - pippen was literally everyone's bitch

[8Ball]

THREAD CLIFFS

By Dennis Rodman, the man that saved Jordan's career:


"If you notice about Scottie Pippen, when Michael Jordan left in '93, '94, '95 -- Scottie Pippen was the best player in the world," Rodman said. "If people didn't know that, he led the team in every category. Every category. Scottie got his wings in 1991 when [the Bulls] beat the Detroit Pistons. When Michael left, Scottie took over and next thing you know he was the best player in the world. People don't know that."

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

None of those guys gave Pippen love.. You're just making up your own facts.. I sourced my quotes, and you made stuff up

carry on

Shaq and Kenny Smith said Pippen was never on the scouting report, and other guys said Pippen couldn't hit water if he was in boat - these are sourced quotes, not delusions like you and the OP.

People say sparkling things about Andre Roberson or Draymond Green if you google search for their entire career.. It doesn't mean shit compared the consensus and facts about Pippen's Pandemic P career and many quotes to the contrary (shown above).. Pippen played like Pandemic P for his entire career - the stats and facts show this clearly.. But the winning spotlight concealed it and inflated him.

:yaohappy:

Grant on Pippen, alleging he was a number 1 option:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVR46AehQCo

Daly praising Pip & calling him the 2nd best player on the 92 Olympics:
https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101

Isiah also called Pippen the 2nd best player in 1998. The video above you shows Phil calling him the best all-around player. Get a grip bud. That MJ insecurity you have is a shtick. ISH knows that you're bullshitting.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

2nd best player in the league for like 7 years then?

Top 5 player for a decade?

So bird is basically saying pippen is a top 15 player in NBA history.

I wish kawhi played with a player of that caliber. Instead he settled for role players like Lowry and Gasol or fake stars like Paul George and Aldridge

[3ba11]

:yaohappy:

Grant on Pippen, alleging he was a number 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVR46AehQCo

Daly praising Pip & calling him the 2nd best player on the 92 Olympics:
https://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101

Isiah also called Pippen the 2nd best player in 1998. The video above you shows Phil calling him the best all-around player. The MJ insecurity you have is a shtick. ISH knows that you're bullshitting.


Post real comments like the one's I posted, not revenge stuff from Horace or hyperbole like Daly saying Pippen was better than Magic, Bird, Barkley, Robinson and Malone in 1992 (which is obviously bullshit political, go-along-get-along speak).. It's just throwing Pippen a bone and obviously not true.

Post something real.. Right now, I'm up by 40 points because you haven't even begun to refute or match the quotes I posted earlier, which were all real shit - post something about how Pippen was feared on the scouting report... oh wait...

[Reggie43]

Nice quote by Bird.

Some guys are just built/optimized playing a certain way and would be less effective playing differently even if given a larger role and equally good teammates.

[3ba11]

Nice quote by Bird.

Some guys are just built/optimized playing a certain way and would be less effective playing differently even if given a larger role and equally good teammates.


Bird was bullshitting about Pippen... Exaggerating like we do in these forums... He wanted to sound cool..

Otoh, this guy isn't trying to sound cool - he's just calling a spade a spade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Post real comments like the one's I posted, not revenge stuff from Horace or hyperbole like Daly saying Pippen was better than Magic, Bird, Barkley, Robinson and Malone in 1992 (which is obviously bullshit political, go-along-get-along speak).. It's just throwing Pippen a bone and obviously not true.

Post something real.. Right now, I'm up by 40 points because you haven't even begun to refute or match the quotes I posted earlier, which were all real shit - post something about how Pippen was feared on the scouting report... oh wait...

Everything I posted was real. :lol

You're not going to goad me into a back and forth, nitpicking whats 'real' and not. Those are your delusions. Nobody elses. Get it together, 3ball.

[3ba11]

Everything I posted was real. :lol

You're not going to goad me into a back and forth, nitpicking whats 'real' and not. Those are your delusions. Nobody elses. Get it together, 3ball.


But we know that Pippen wasn't the #2 player on the Dream Team no matter what Daly says.

Part of being an adult is separating the real from the BS

If you don't want to do that and believe in Santa Claus - have at it

But your quotes don't compare to what I posted.. Pippen was obviously trash and no one thought he was good in the 90's, not even Daly... Daly was bullshitting about a role player like Pippen and didn't even think about Pippen when he faced Pippen in the playoffs.

Again, you can seek out quotes to make you feel better, just like the biggest Andre Roberson fan could do, but the reality is that there's alot more quotes trashing Pippen than supporting him... He sucked - a defensive role player - all the stats and facts support this

[3ba11]

Here's the actual Bird quote (scroll down to 3rd and 4th paragraphs):


https://books.google.com/books?id=SoXikyW3S40C&pg=PT147&lpg=PT147&dq=Pippen+is+the+second+best+player+in+the+league+ when+he+is+playing+with+Michael+and+about+the+5th+ best+player+without+him&source=bl&ots=H3yXhuD-1Z&sig=ACfU3U1RkN5yQFo62P2h2m5Ed2GyDUhJ1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPn-PZiNrxAhXX7Z4KHc56BcwQ6AEwD3oECCAQAw#v=onepage&q=Pippen%20is%20the%20second%20best%20player%20in% 20the%20league%20when%20he%20is%20playing%20with%2 0Michael%20and%20about%20the%205th%20best%20player %20without%20him&f=false


It's funny because Bird is actually gushing about MJ, and uses hyperbole about Pippen to make his point that Jordan was a God.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs:

Lebron fans: Here's some quotes from Pippen's teammates and coaches that support Pippen

3ball: That's not surprising, but here's quotes from everyone that WASN'T a teammate or coach that say he sucks

[Carbine]

2nd best player in the league for like 7 years then?

Top 5 player for a decade?

So bird is basically saying pippen is a top 15 player in NBA history.

I wish kawhi played with a player of that caliber. Instead he settled for role players like Lowry and Gasol or fake stars like Paul George and Aldridge

I believe Larry was insinuating that with MJ, Pippen was the second best player in the league because his one area of weakness (relative to other top 5 players) was his half court offense. When MJ was out there with him, it nullified that.

When he was without MJ, that weakness cropped up so he dropped to the 5th best player (In Larry's opinion) because now that weakness is on display a lot more without MJ.

[3ba11]

I believe Larry was insinuating that with MJ, Pippen was the second best player in the league because his one area of weakness (relative to other top 5 players) was his half court offense. When MJ was out there with him, it nullified that.

When he was without MJ, that weakness cropped up so he dropped to the 5th best player (In Larry's opinion) because now that weakness is on display a lot more without MJ.


it's a minority opinion spoken in a hyperbolic way that Bird probably contradicted a million other times (like anytime someone asked him for his top 5 players in the league)

Ultimately, most people that aren't forced to support Pippen like coaches or teammates think he sucked, as shown (and sourced) extensively earlier itt

[8Ball]

First team all nba 8x in the 90s isn't minority opinion. Its a fact.

[3ba11]

First team all nba 8x in the 90s isn't minority opinion. Its a fact.


The winning spotlight and association with MJ gave Pippen a few extra media awards like all-nba, similar to Kobe getting a few extra all-defense for the same reason (winning spotlight and association with MJ)

Ultimately, Payton and Stockton have more all-nba media awards but their superior performance is ranked below Pippen's due to ring count (winning spotlight).

And we can prove that Pippen is overrated - he was disputed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xiIj46b1_8&t=01m27s) for top 50 in 1997 and dozens of new guys like Lebron or Kobe have passed him since, yet he's now ranked top 30 by many.. This mis-ranking occurs because the on-paper evaluations of new fans only see the 6 rings and overrate him compared to the zero rings of Ewing or Giannis.. So Pippen gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, which is unfair - imagine if Klay was ranked over Beal or Harden due to rings - that's the treatment Pippen gets.. Pippen is just the low-producing bum that came along after the super-team 80's - expansion had spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win and anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format..

The reality is that everyone in history needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for at least half their rings - they needed a teammate to match them for ENTIRE PLAYOFF RUNS, whereas Jordan outscored his sidekick in every SERIES by at least 10 ppg (15 ppg average margin).. This proves that no one carried teams remotely close to MJ's load.. Jordan also got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year and averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen - Jordan's assist percentage in the playoffs is 33% higher than Pippen's, so he was assisting 33% more often than Pippen.

[tpols]

"Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

Take that for what you want.

When did he write this?

MJ
Barkley
Robinson
Ewing
Shaq
Clyde
Reggie
Etc.

We saw Pippen get shit on by Ewing and the Knicks in 1994. One Toni Kukoc shot away from a sweep basically. How the hell is he better than guys who led teams further and even beat him at his peak head to head?

[Axe]

When did he write this?

MJ
Barkley
Robinson
Ewing
Shaq
Clyde
Reggie
Etc.

We saw Pippen get shit on by Ewing and the Knicks in 1994. One Toni Kukoc shot away from a sweep basically. How the hell is he better than guys who led teams further and even beat him at his peak head to head?
Pippen led the trailblazers to the conference finals in 01 and took your mamba to seven games that same year, dummy.

[Jasper]

"Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

Take that for what you want.

I trust the legend

[3ba11]

I trust the legend


* Shaq is a higher-ranked legend and he says Pippen was a "bum" that was never on the scouting report

* Jerry Krause is a legend and he said that MJ made Pippen who he was

* Chuck Daly is a legend and he said the Pistons played 5-on-1 defense versus MJ

* Phil is a legend and he prefers Kukoc, Kerr, Paxson - ANYONE over pippen when it mattered


See the sources for all these quotes here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495617-Larry-Bird-on-Pippen-in-his-book-quot-Bird-Watching-quot&p=14388316&viewfull=1#post14388316)

[8Ball]

LArry Bird + Rodman have spoken.

Plus Pippen with 8 all-nba teams in the 90s.

There is no more dispute.

[3ba11]

LArry Bird + Rodman have spoken.

Plus Pippen with 8 all-nba teams in the 90s.

There is no more dispute.


Payton and Stockton had more all-nba, and no one thinks Pippen is on the same level as Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing or Drexler, who all made the Finals as 1st options (1st option Finals guys) - that's a few dimensions superior to Pippen (and 2nd option that lost in the 2nd round)

[Xiao Yao You]

Payton and Stockton had more all-nba, and no one thinks Pippen is on the same level as Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Ewing or Drexler, who all made the Finals as 1st options (1st option Finals guys) - that's a few dimensions superior to Pippen (and 2nd option that lost in the 2nd round)

you just called Stockton a scrub in another discussion :lol

[97 bulls]

* Shaq is a higher-ranked legend and he says Pippen was a "bum" that was never on the scouting report

* Jerry Krause is a legend and he said that MJ made Pippen who he was

* Chuck Daly is a legend and he said the Pistons played 5-on-1 defense versus MJ

* Phil is a legend and he prefers Kukoc, Kerr, Paxson - ANYONE over pippen when it mattered


See the sources for all these quotes here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495617-Larry-Bird-on-Pippen-in-his-book-quot-Bird-Watching-quot&p=14388316&viewfull=1#post14388316)

But you take these quotes out of context, or don’t take into consideration when the quote was said.

Dennis Rodman, Charles Barkley, John Sally, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, Phil Jackson, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan to name a few all have said Scottie Pippen was 2nd, around 5th or even the best player in the NBA at one time. Or at the least would slap the shit out of you for your assessment on Scottie.

At some point, you’re gonna have to accept that Pippen is highly respected by people that hold more weight than you ever could. You’re just wrong bro.

[Orange_Cassidy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRY9bZTPVr0

what a racist piece of sh*t

[And1AllDay]

Here's the actual Bird quote (scroll down to 3rd and 4th paragraphs):


https://books.google.com/books?id=SoXikyW3S40C&pg=PT147&lpg=PT147&dq=Pippen+is+the+second+best+player+in+the+league+ when+he+is+playing+with+Michael+and+about+the+5th+ best+player+without+him&source=bl&ots=H3yXhuD-1Z&sig=ACfU3U1RkN5yQFo62P2h2m5Ed2GyDUhJ1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiPn-PZiNrxAhXX7Z4KHc56BcwQ6AEwD3oECCAQAw#v=onepage&q=Pippen%20is%20the%20second%20best%20player%20in% 20the%20league%20when%20he%20is%20playing%20with%2 0Michael%20and%20about%20the%205th%20best%20player %20without%20him&f=false


It's funny because Bird is actually gushing about MJ, and uses hyperbole about Pippen to make his point that Jordan was a God.

the only man ever gushing about mike jordan is just you fakkit :oldlol: :oldlol:

[And1AllDay]

NBA.com Rankings by votes:



Pippen was a top 5 player in the 90s by NBA.com.

https://ca.nba.com/news/power-rankings-the-best-players-from-the-1990s/mu5pb494xop81wfdvi7yp5yrj




Pippen got so many votes by historians that he was a top 5 player in the 90s.

issa wrap





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRY9bZTPVr0

its over

[amandaturciya]

I think this is the best description of this book here!

[TheGoatest]

Michael Jordan was Orlando McGrady/Houston Harden when he was playing without Pippen and Magic/Bird's heir when he was playing with Pippen, while getting all the credit and Pippen getting slim to none.

[getting_old]

one for Bill, that's about it..

BILL LAIMBEER:

"We didn't even think about Scottie Pippen. It was Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires.

[Stephonit]

There was a point in time where thoughts on Pippen were in flux. It is clear that Pippen was a top 10 player of that time. What wasn't clear was how much better he could be. Bird Watching seems to have come out in 1999. Pippen's career wasn't over yet. There was still time for him to improve his resume. If for example the 2000 Trail Blazers had beaten the Lakers and then gone on to win a championship saying Pippen was a top 5 90s player would be pretty defensible. As it is, however, Pippen never led a team to the finals despite having multiple opportunities to do so while many others did. Bird's comments I think were an optimistic but reasonable projection at the time. With Pippen's career complete though it's hard to justify it.

[97 bulls]

There was a point in time where thoughts on Pippen were in flux. It is clear that Pippen was a top 10 player of that time. What wasn't clear was how much better he could be. Bird Watching seems to have come out in 1999. Pippen's career wasn't over yet. There was still time for him to improve his resume. If for example the 2000 Trail Blazers had beaten the Lakers and then gone on to win a championship saying Pippen was a top 5 90s player would be pretty defensible. As it is, however, Pippen never led a team to the finals despite having multiple opportunities to do so while many others did. Bird's comments I think were an optimistic but reasonable projection at the time. With Pippen's career complete though it's hard to justify it.

Scottie Pippen was almost 35 years old when the Blazers played the Lakers in 2000. I've never seen a player get such unreasonable expectation.

I know if the Blazers had won that Championship, none of you guys would've credited Pippen as leading the Blazers to the Championship.

[Bawkish]

Scottie Pippen was almost 35 years old when the Blazers played the Lakers in 2000. I've never seen a player get such unreasonable expectation.

I know if the Blazers had won that Championship, none of you guys would've credited Pippen as leading the Blazers to the Championship.

Why not? He's the only one in that roster that had championship experience and obviously the anchor of that team leading up to their route to the Finals. He's also the anchor of their defense

In the end, Shaq was right. He's just not MJ and he folded in the clutch just like before

[97 bulls]

Why not? He's the only one in that roster that had championship experience and obviously the anchor of that team leading up to their route to the Finals. He's also the anchor of their defense

In the end, Shaq was right. He's just not MJ and he folded in the clutch just like before

Scottie Pippen has 6 championships to his credit. Stop it. His winning with the Blazers would've been. Dismissed by him being old.

[leopardJuice]

Pippen is literally not better than anyone LeThotiana has played with. Wade > Pip Kyrie > Pip Davis > Pip... Lebron has no help.

How can someone of his caliber be 4/10 with those stacked rosters? amazing

[houston]

Pippen was a great player but he does have an overrated legacy. He basically the John Havlicek of the 90's.

[Bawkish]

Scottie Pippen has 6 championships to his credit. Stop it. His winning with the Blazers would've been. Dismissed by him being old.

Then why would Shaq comment on Pip regarding their match? If he thinks Pip got old overnight like what you've been implying then he would've threw that remark to someone else who's the anchor of the team.

Let's not forget that Pip was on the floor the whole time they choked that 15pt lead

[97 bulls]

Then why would Shaq comment on Pip regarding their match? If he thinks Pip got old overnight like what you've been implying then he would've threw that remark to someone else who's the anchor of the team.

Let's not forget that Pip was on the floor the whole time they choked that 15pt lead

Because Pippen called out Shaq. Don't get me wrong, Pippen was still a good player even at that age. But put a younger Pippen on that Blazers team and the Lakers don't get to a game 7.

But again, people with agendas don't care about narratives. Unless the narrative fits their agenda. Scottie Pippen was a shell of his former shelf by the time he played the Lakers in 00.

[Reggie43]

Those Blazers were already a deep strong team and what they needed from Pippen was leadership especially in that game 7 and he couldnt provide that.

[97 bulls]

Those Blazers were already a deep strong team and what they needed from Pippen was leadership especially in that game 7 and he couldnt provide that.

You mean like Reggie Miller? How championships does he have?

[Reggie43]

You mean like Reggie Miller? How championships does he have?

Miller is Miller and Im the first one to tell guys or admit what his shortcomings were.

How about Pippen? You pretty much defend him to death regardless of what he did or say. Has he ever done anything wrong in your eyes?

[Axe]

Those Blazers were already a deep strong team and what they needed from Pippen was leadership especially in that game 7 and he couldnt provide that.
Roundball rock would laugh at this post maniacally. :lol

[Stephonit]

Pippen was a great player but he does have an overrated legacy. He basically the John Havlicek of the 90's.

Havlicek aside from winning with Russell multiple times won two more championships with Cowens. Havlicek has the same number of championships without Russell as Hakeem and more than Dirk or KG.

[TheGoatest]

Those Blazers were already a deep strong team and what they needed from Pippen was leadership especially in that game 7 and he couldnt provide that.

The Bulls needed leadership from Jordan in the 1986-87 season (their last season without Pippen), where they just needed a .500 record to avoid facing the Celtics in the first round.
Jordan couldn't provide that leadership, and the 7th seed instead went to an all-star-less team led by a rookie Chuck Person.

Next season Pippen arrived and the rest is history.

[Reggie43]

The Bulls needed leadership from Jordan in the 1986-87 season (their last season without Pippen), where they just needed a .500 record to avoid facing the Celtics in the first round.
Jordan couldn't provide that leadership, and the 7th seed instead went to an all-star-less team led by a rookie Chuck Person.

Next season Pippen arrived and the rest is history.

Yeah Jordan's leadership style was vastly overrated. He needed Phil and Pip to make that work and they should all get equal credit imo.

[Reggie43]

Roundball rock would laugh at this post maniacally. :lol

Rooted hard for those Blazers and what happened to them in that 4th quarter was traumatic even as a fan. No one seemingly wanted to shoot and guys were playing hot potato with the ball as the Lakers made their run was insanely hard to watch.

[RogueBorg]

First team all nba 8x in the 90s isn't minority opinion. Its a fact.

BS, Pippen was not 1st-Team All-NBA 8x in the 90's.

Nada '98-'99
3rd Team in '97-'98
2nd Team in 96-97
1st Team 95-96
1st Team 94-95
1st Team 93-94
3rd Team 92-93
2nd Team 91-92
Nada 91-92
Nada 90-91

[Jasper]

Best second option in history. Seems reasonable.

puts him in the HOF , 6 rings and top 50 greatest(.)
/

[getting_old]

Yeah Jordan's leadership style was vastly overrated. He needed Phil and Pip to make that work and they should all get equal credit imo.


Without being handed the best players to "coach", every single venture of Phil was a cratering of epic proportion.

[Reggie43]

Without being handed the best players to "coach", every single venture of Phil was a cratering of epic proportion.

Was only talking about them being equal in terms of leadership. We all know who deserves the most credit for those rings.

[amandaturciya]

I think this is the best description of this book here! I tried to find a summary for this book at https://freebooksummary.com/category/haroun-and-the-sea-of-stories because this is where I read the review every time I need it. But, probably, this site is still more about fiction. Well, I'm already looking for this book, it really interested me very much (almost as well as a basketball!).

I have checked the book and it is awesome, thanks!

[3ba11]

"Pippen is the second best player in the league when he is playing with Michael and about the 5th best player without him"

Take that for what you want.


People said that Penny, Hill, Stackhouse, Harold Miner, and many more were "the next MJ"

So people are wrong, especially 1-off comments picked out of 40-year career in basketball

otoh, the CONSENSUS among former players is that Pippen was a bum and basically a weakling according to Barkley, or a flat-out bum according to Shaq, or a lower tier player with no standing, according to Isiah..

The stats confirm their assertions, including a weak peak and goat gap between 1st and 2nd option.. Pippen was infact a 3rd to 6th option role player without MJ or triangle.. And he had a cratering, borderline lottery team in 95' before MJ returned - that was the REAL bulls without mj after historic embarrassment in the 94' Playoffs ended the honeymoon period and swagger of being defending 3-peat champs.

[ImKobe]

Bird also compared MJ to Jesus so..

I already covered this, Stockton beat him in most metrics as a #2 option in every season when Pippen was a #2 to MJ.. along with some of the other 2nd options in some years. Pippen was a top 8-12 player of his era.