Was rookie Jordan better than 2009 and 2010 Kobe?

[theman93]

Jordan 1985: 28/7/6/2/1 | 51.5 FG% | 51.8 eFG% | 59.2 TS% | 25.8 PER | .213 WS/48 | 7.3 BPM | 7.4 VORP | 29.8 USG%

Kobe 2009: 27/5/5/2/1 | 46.7 FG% | 50.2 eFG% | 56.1 TS% | 24.4 PER | .206 WS/48 | 5.9 BPM | 5.9 VORP | 32.2 USG%

Kobe 2010: 27/5/5/2/0.3 | 45.6 FG% | 48.8 eFG% | 54.5 TS% | 21.9 PER | .160 WS/48 | 4.1 BPM | 4.4 VORP | 32.3 USG%

I'd say the stats and advanced stats say so.

[3ba11]

Rookie Jordan had already dominated Magic, Larry and the NBA's best players in the Olympic exhibitions, so he was already the GOAT.

If he entered the league with Kareem like Magic did, he would've 4-peated from his rookie season through 88'.

Ultimately, once Jordan had a top 10 team defense and a sidekick that could reliably get 16 ppg, he basically never lost and didn't lose 3 straight games from 90-98', while the 17' and 18' Warriors had several 3-game losing streaks.

[ImKobe]

That's a dumb argument. No he wasn't. Inflated stats with the pace in the mid 80s. He was obviously the better athlete and got by on that early on but he didn't have the range nor the complete offensive package & experience that Kobe did. Also, Kobe was pacing himself for the Playoff run and didn't go all out in the RS and played in a more team environment.

[Phoenix]

:facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

Damn, rookie MJ be like.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/53ed8ded36970e71ba829521446f55ce/tenor.gif?itemid=12247089

But honestly, I think if rookie MJ and 2009-2010 Kobe faced off on a 7 game series as "the man" with comparable supporting casts, Kobe would squeeze it out due to his far superior experience, skills, footwork, etc. MJ would no doubt get his on both ends and be incredibly impactful because he was an athletic freak as a rookie but I think Kobe catches him MJ leaning the wrong way enough times and outsmarts/outskills MJ to squeeze it out. But it would be close.

[SouBeachTalents]

In a 1-time series, the experienced Kobe might beat rookie Jordan.

But if they played a 2nd series, Jordan would win.

Ultimately Jordan didn't lose 3 straight games from 90-98', while the 17' and 18' Warriors had several 3-game losing streaks.. And what help did Jordan have? Role players and a 19 ppg sidekick with weak efficiency isn't a lot of help
He had a lot of help, that 19 ppg sidekick consistently outproduced the opposing teams 2nd option. And those "role players" were the 3x rebounding champ, the 6MOY, and two other all-stars. That team was so good they won 55 games without him

[3ba11]

He had a lot of help, that 19 ppg sidekick consistently outproduced the opposing teams 2nd option. And those "role players" were the 3x rebounding champ, the 6MOY, and two other all-stars. That team was so good they won 55 games without him


Consistently?... Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in the following series and some of these series went 7 games, so Pippen was derailing titles (90' ECF), repeats (92' ECSF), and 3-peats (98' ECF):


1988 1st Round
1988 2nd Round
1989 1st Round
1989 ECF
1990 ECF
1992 ECSF
1993 1st Round
1994 ECSF
1995 1st Round
1996 ECF
1996 Finals
1997 1st Round
1998 ECF**
99' 1st Round
00' WCF
many more


**
Pippen'.... 16.6 on 39%
Smits...... 16.2 on 55%



More importantly, outscoring the 2nd option is a low bar for 2nd options - Lebron's sidekicks outscore the opposing #1 option (11' and 13'), league MVP's (16') or the entire league (20')... Or they outscore Lebron himself..

So Pippen was trash and below the standard of championship 2nd options

[SouBeachTalents]

Consistently?... Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in the following series
1992 ECSF
1993 1st Round
1996 ECF
1996 Finals
1997 1st Round
These are the only series that matter in this discussion, bringing up '88 & '89 Pippen is like bringing up '97 & '98 Kobe for Shaq. And look at that, the trash, not even top 1000 peak Pippen outscored the Bulls opposing 2nd option 19 times in 24 series. Speaks to how incredibly weak that era was that a Boobie Gibson level player was by far the best 2nd option in the league.

And notice he didn't even try disputing the points about Rodman, Kukoc, Grant & Armstrong :lol

[2much_knowledge]

No. Thats just the product of stats for being the man on a very bad team. Like Love in Minnesota or Drummond in Detroit

[Orange_Cassidy]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe

[8Ball]

Kobe was good enough to make the NBA at 18 years old.

Michael Jordan was not.


That's the difference between them.

[DoctorP]

yes.

[SouBeachTalents]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe
'90-'93 Jordan shits on any version of Kobe

[Orange_Cassidy]

'90-'93 Jordan shits on any version of Kobe

you think any version of MJ was more talented/skilled than peak kobe? ..are you on drugs lol


Jordan's the goat but come on lol

[ShawkFactory]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe
:lol

The 1 and 2 orientation isn’t even the most ridiculous thing here

[SouBeachTalents]

:lol

The 1 and 2 orientation isn’t even the most ridiculous thing here
Yeah, might have to go with 2011-2013 Kobe being better than '87-'89 Jordan on that one :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah, might have to go with 2011 & 2012 Kobe being better than '88 & '89 Jordan on that one :lol

Yep :lol

He was better than Kobe ever was in those years let alone 2011+ Kobe

[Orange_Cassidy]

:lol

The 1 and 2 orientation isn’t even the most ridiculous thing here

half of MJs dominance was from having giant hands, unlimited hang time, ultimate speed and strength and ultimate durability

he was the perfect blend of skill and a God given body.. meanwhile kobe after 2003 was rehabbing nonstop and getting by with smaller hands and having to utilize counters/pump fakes/angles and off hands/trick shots to put up historic numbers

are we talking about who's better or who's more dominant

[Orange_Cassidy]

Yeah, might have to go with 2011-2013 Kobe being better than '87-'89 Jordan on that one :lol

I said I ranked them in terms of ability. not health.. the end of kobes 2011 season was due to an injured knee .. but his 2010, 12 and 13 seasons had signs of him still being as good as ever. I'm definitely taking 2010 wcf kobe or 2013 pre Achilles rupture kobe over 80s MJ

[3ba11]

'90-'93 Jordan shits on any version of Kobe


MJ shits on bron too - any version of bron:


PLAYOFFS

90-93' Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced)..... 12.2 BPM... 30.0 PER... 0.271 WS/48... 11.0 VORP.... 35/7/7 on 50%.. 3/4
11-14' Lebron (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2011-2014-sum:playoffs_advanced)'...... 9.6 BPM... 28.2 PER... 0.253 WS/48... 10.6 VORP.... 27/8/6 on 50%.. 2/4
15-18' Lebron (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2015-2018-sum:playoffs_advanced)..... 10.4 BPM... 29.4 PER... 0.247 WS/48... 10.4 VORP... 31/10/8 on 51%.. 1/4

[FKAri]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/196157.gif

[ImKobe]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe

Great list.

[eliteballer]

Rookie Jordan 21/22 years old.

2001 Kobe 22 years old...

Compare the numbers, and remember Kobe wasn't in the fast paced 80's.

[3ba11]

These are the only series that matter in this discussion, bringing up '88 & '89 Pippen is like bringing up '97 & '98 Kobe for Shaq. And look at that, the trash, not even top 1000 peak Pippen outscored the Bulls opposing 2nd option 19 times in 24 series. Speaks to how incredibly weak that era was that a Boobie Gibson level player was by far the best 2nd option in the league.





Pippen was outscored by 2nd options in 20 of the 43 series in his career, and he was outplayed in the vast majority of series when we include efficiency (see the 96' ECSF for an example... 15 on 33%)..

So Pippen was a garbage 2nd option and it's a wonder that MJ won with someone that couldn't handle the 2nd option load (as proven by pippen's efficiency and weak ppg)

Furthermore, outscoring the opposing 2nd option is a low bar - Lebron's sidekicks outscore the opposing #1 option (11' and 13'), or league MVP's (16') or the entire league (20')... Or they outscore Lebron himself (many series and numerous playoff runs)..





And notice he didn't even try disputing the points about Rodman, Kukoc, Grant & Armstrong :lol





You really want to compare 3rd options?

Lebron had star scorers and perennial all-stars at 3rd option (super-teams)

Bosh was an 11-time all-star... Horace was 1-time all-star (korver all-star)... Ditto BJ, while Love had Kareem-level stats... Lebron is just a fraud that mostly lost after stacking the deck.. He mostly loses regardless of cast.

[RRR3]

MJ was significantly better than Kobe ever was by his 3rd season. Kenneth is retarded.

[ShawkFactory]

half of MJs dominance was from having giant hands, unlimited hang time, ultimate speed and strength and ultimate durability

he was the perfect blend of skill and a God given body.. meanwhile kobe after 2003 was rehabbing nonstop and getting by with smaller hands and having to utilize counters/pump fakes/angles and off hands/trick shots to put up historic numbers

are we talking about who's better or who's more dominant

Ummmm...:oldlol:

[Axe]

Role player kobe who made past the first round in his first three years in the league or 1-9 jordan?

The choice is yours, comrade.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan 1985: 28/7/6/2/1 | 51.5 FG% | 51.8 eFG% | 59.2 TS% | 25.8 PER | .213 WS/48 | 7.3 BPM | 7.4 VORP | 29.8 USG%

Kobe 2009: 27/5/5/2/1 | 46.7 FG% | 50.2 eFG% | 56.1 TS% | 24.4 PER | .206 WS/48 | 5.9 BPM | 5.9 VORP | 32.2 USG%

Kobe 2010: 27/5/5/2/0.3 | 45.6 FG% | 48.8 eFG% | 54.5 TS% | 21.9 PER | .160 WS/48 | 4.1 BPM | 4.4 VORP | 32.3 USG%

I'd say the stats and advanced stats say so.

You're not adjusting for pace. You're also not considering that Kobe was a better playoff performer and defensive player. This is peak Kobe you're talking about. He had better leadership, too.

[sdot_thadon]

Even though it's Mj, what a ridiculous thread......

[MadDog]

In the playoffs, Kobe had a higher PER\VORP and scored more points. Beyond the stats though, Kobe was better because his game was more polished and crafty. Its close though which shows how great even a ROOKIE MJ was.


just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe

From 87-96, Jordan was better than every single version of Kobe. Every. single. version. Better numbers, advanced numbers, more dominance, better defender and a better playoff performer. Kobe might've had equal or better skills, but not enough to close the stranglehold Jordan had everywhere else. But even if you wanted to reduce it to skill, Jordan's midrange was second to none.

[ClipperRevival]

In the playoffs, Kobe had a higher PER\VORP and scored more points. Beyond the stats though, Kobe was better because his game was more polished and crafty. Its close though which shows how great even a ROOKIE MJ was.



From 87-96, Jordan was better than every single version of Kobe. Every. single. version. Better numbers, advanced numbers, more dominance, better defender and a better playoff performer. Kobe might've had equal or better skills, but not enough to close the stranglehold Jordan had everywhere else. But even if you wanted to reduce it to skill, Jordan's midrange was second to none.

One thing I would say Kobe was on par with MJ was work ethic and skills. Now, "skills" is relative because if you have 2 guys with the exact same skill level but one guy is close to a tier better as an athlete, he'll just be better for obvious reasons and I think you were hinting at this. But still, gotta hand it to Kobe, he did an amazing job of copying MJ (no disrespect meant towards Kobe, he imitated the GOAT), and did a close copycat. In terms of PURE skills and taking out natural talent, Kobe can sit on the same table with MJ. Heck, you can even argue he was the most skilled player ever.

[theman93]

You're not adjusting for pace. You're also not considering that Kobe was a better playoff performer and defensive player. This is peak Kobe you're talking about. He had better leadership, too.

We can use stat % to help adjust for that.

AST%: 1985 Jordan - 25.3 | 2009 Kobe - 23.8 | 2010 Kobe - 23.8

TRB%: 1985 Jordan - 9.8 | 2009 Kobe - 8.2 | 2010 Kobe - 7.7

DRB%: 1985 Jordan - 13.2 | 2009 Kobe - 12.8 | 2010 Kobe - 12.2

ORB%: 1985 Jordan - 6.3 | 2009 Kobe - 3.5 | 2010 Kobe - 3.1

STL%: 1985 Jordan - 3.0 | 2009 Kobe - 2.1 | 2010 Kobe - 2.1

BLK%: 1985 Jordan - 1.3 | 2009 Kobe - 1.0 | 2010 Kobe - 0.5

USG%: 1985 Jordan - 29.8 | 2009 Kobe - 32.2 | 2010 Kobe - 32.3

On top of Jordan having a lower usage rate, he also attempted less field goals per game and less 3's per game and still averaged more points than Kobe.

No doubt Jordan wasn't as skilled or savvy as 2009/2010 Kobe, but as for just getting the ball in the basket he was better at it.

[LAL]

Is 85 MJ better than 96-98 triangle MJ?

Is 2013 Kobe better than 09/10 triangle Kobe?

Is MVP Westbrook better than Peak Lebron?

Is Doncic better than prime Magic?

[Phoenix]

MJ was significantly better than Kobe ever was by his 3rd season. Kenneth is retarded.

Had a feeling that's who it was. James Spader account got banned, I take it.

[theman93]

This was the 9th game of Jordan’s career. His skills were already insane.


https://youtu.be/VPuJl6bStrY

[3ba11]

This was the 9th game of Jordan’s career. His skills were already insane.


https://youtu.be/VPuJl6bStrY


Rookie Jordan was getting 45 points mostly off-ball, while Lebron can't do that after 2 decades in the league.

Notice how Jordan's scoring is assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role - this is why Jordan's high scoring won, while Lebron's ball-dominance reduces teammates to spot-up roles, so it normally loses at high scoring amounts, even as a historic favorite (09')

[j3lademaster]

One thing I would say Kobe was on par with MJ was work ethic and skills. Now, "skills" is relative because if you have 2 guys with the exact same skill level but one guy is close to a tier better as an athlete, he'll just be better for obvious reasons and I think you were hinting at this. But still, gotta hand it to Kobe, he did an amazing job of copying MJ (no disrespect meant towards Kobe, he imitated the GOAT), and did a close copycat. In terms of PURE skills and taking out natural talent, Kobe can sit on the same table with MJ. Heck, you can even argue he was the most skilled player ever.
In terms of pure skill yeah Kobe’s probably the goat. We aren’t going to see offhand turnaround jumpers for a long time.


https://youtu.be/XsFcOfY0MEM

MJ is the better overall player due to superior basketball iq and physical gifts.

Kobe might be the only player nutty enough to try a turnaround 3 with his offhand. Everyone else is trying to get that off with their strong hand or trying to draw a foul.


https://youtu.be/_Ejge65qKis

Here are other players trying offhand shots… with no pressure and no defense. Just to put into perspective how difficult it is to shoot lefty in a game.


https://youtu.be/ttazxzv_L08

[3ba11]

In terms of pure skill yeah Kobe’s probably the goat. We aren’t going to see offhand turnaround jumpers for a long time.


https://youtu.be/XsFcOfY0MEM

MJ is the better overall player due to superior basketball iq and physical gifts.




Jordan was superior as a left-handed layups of all different kinds like the switch-hands shot or these:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-16-2019/f7y_Z9.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2016/a93dm8.gif

[j3lademaster]

Jordan was superior as a left-handed layups of all different kinds like the switch-hands shot or these:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-16-2019/f7y_Z9.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2016/a93dm8.gif
Jordan as a physical specimen was unreal. Kobe and Lebron would lose some bounce jumping off 2 feet, Westbrook loses bounce trying to go off 1, but MJ does either. Combine that with hands where he can palm off the dribble and all time soft touch you get the greatest slasher of all time.

[Stephonit]

There are people who value higher losing stats over lower winning ones. Figure out if that is you.

[3ba11]

Here's Jordan taking left-handed jumpers seamlessly and flawlessly.. better than Kobe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBhwHGlj9kA&t=03m23s

[ImKobe]

Here's Jordan taking left-handed jumpers seamlessly and flawlessly.. better than Kobe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBhwHGlj9kA&t=03m23s

This is Kobe in year 19 going to his off-hand after he tore his rotator cuff in his right shoulder..


https://youtu.be/NuXfJJR0eFk

Do it in a game.

[Phoenix]

In terms of pure skill yeah Kobe’s probably the goat. We aren’t going to see offhand turnaround jumpers for a long time.


https://youtu.be/XsFcOfY0MEM

MJ is the better overall player due to superior basketball iq and physical gifts.

Kobe might be the only player nutty enough to try a turnaround 3 with his offhand. Everyone else is trying to get that off with their strong hand or trying to draw a foul.


https://youtu.be/_Ejge65qKis

Here are other players trying offhand shots… with no pressure and no defense. Just to put into perspective how difficult it is to shoot lefty in a game.


https://youtu.be/ttazxzv_L08

Hes in the the GOAT skill conversation but part of it is application of skills and Kobe took alot of shots on the basis of testing his limits regardless of whether it was the best play at the time. Hes too 'skilled' offensively to be a career 45% scorer( 46 to 47% at this peak).

[ImKobe]

Hes in the the GOAT skill conversation but part of it is application of skills and Kobe took alot of shots on the basis of testing his limits regardless of whether it was the best play at the time. Hes too 'skilled' offensively to be a career 45% scorer( 46 to 47% at this peak).



But he wasn't as inefficient as many claim he was.

Playoffs

91-93
Jordan: 34/6/7 57.2%TS
96-98
Jordan: 31/6/4 54.3%TS (league average cratered in '98 when they put the 3-point line back further again)
01-02
Kobe: 27/7/5 53.1%TS (league average was ~52%TS those years)
08-10
Kobe: 30/6/6 56.9%TS
11-13
Lebron: 27/9/6 57.5%TS (league average from 08-13 was around 53-54%TS)

Kobe just shot more 3s so his FG% is lower, he averaged 5.1 3PA from 08-10 Playoffs vs. Lebron's 4 & Jordan's 3, Kobe was 50% on 2s, which is close to peak MJ's 50.9% (their eFG% being ~1% apart as well) in the 91-93 Playoffs and above 2nd 3-Peat MJ, so he was somewhere between peak and 2nd 3-Peat Jordan statistically when you look at his scoring efficiency.

It's just another one of these narratives made up by the anti-Kobe/Lakers folk, prime Kobe during the 3 straight Finals run was on par with all of the greats before the 3-Point chucking era, where now everyone has a 60+%TS and the league average is significantly higher and is climbing with each season.

[Phoenix]

But he wasn't as inefficient as many claim he was.

Playoffs

91-93
Jordan: 34/6/7 57.2%TS
96-98
Jordan: 31/6/4 54.3%TS (league average cratered in '98 when they put the 3-point line back further again)
01-02
Kobe: 27/7/5 53.1%TS (league average was ~52%TS those years)
08-10
Kobe: 30/6/6 56.9%TS
11-13
Lebron: 27/9/6 57.5%TS (league average from 08-13 was around 53-54%TS)

Kobe just shot more 3s so his FG% is lower, he averaged 5.1 3PA from 08-10 Playoffs vs. Lebron's 4 & Jordan's 3, Kobe was 50% on 2s, which is close to peak MJ's 50.9% (their eFG% being ~1% apart as well) in the 91-93 Playoffs and above 2nd 3-Peat MJ, so he was somewhere between peak and 2nd 3-Peat Jordan statistically when you look at his scoring efficiency.

It's just another one of these narratives made up by the anti-Kobe/Lakers folk, prime Kobe during the 3 straight Finals run was on par with all of the greats before the 3-Point chucking era, where now everyone has a 60+%TS and the league average is significantly higher and is climbing with each season.

I didn't say he was inefficient. I said he had the tools to be more efficient. Do you have any capability to discuss Kobe if it's not outright praise? Cause I do like him as a player, always did, but jesus christ. Theres no discussing him with some of you. Theres no reason he couldnt have routinely been a 48% shooter between 2001 and 2010. I dont care what his TS% is relative to league norm, I'm talking about him specifically and what his skillset could have been capable of.

[ScottieQuitting]

just factoring ability and not careers

#1 - 2006 to 2009 kobe
#2 - 1990 to 1993 MJ
#3 - 2001 to 2003 kobe
#4 - 1996 to 1998 MJ
#5 - 2010 to 2013 kobe
#6 - 1986 to 1989 MJ
#7 - 2004 to 2005 kobe
#8 - 1985 jordan
#9 - 1998 to 2000 kobe
#10 - 2002 to 2003 MJ
#11 - 1997 kobe
You’re smoking crack… look at your list.

You basically said Kobe (90% at best cover band MJ) is better than the player he is an inferior version of.

If we’re ranking them in their phases, in increments of every three seasons. This is honestly how it shakes out.

1) 1991 - 1993 Jordan (greatest player of all time)

2) 1988 - 1990 Jordan
3) 2006 - 2008 Kobe
4) 1996 - 1998 Jordan
5) 2009 - 2011 Kobe

6) 2003 - 2005 Kobe
7) 2000 - 2002 Kobe
8) 1985 - 1987 Jordan

9) 2012 and 2013 Kobe
10) 2002 and 2003 Wiz Jordan

11) 1997 - 1999 Kobe
12) 2014 - 2016 Kobe

Put the pipe down Kenneth

[90sgoat]

Not close.

MJ wasn't really a smart, cerebral player, until after getting whooped by Bird.

[coastalmarker99]

But he wasn't as inefficient as many claim he was.

Playoffs

91-93
Jordan: 34/6/7 57.2%TS
96-98
Jordan: 31/6/4 54.3%TS (league average cratered in '98 when they put the 3-point line back further again)
01-02
Kobe: 27/7/5 53.1%TS (league average was ~52%TS those years)
08-10
Kobe: 30/6/6 56.9%TS
11-13
Lebron: 27/9/6 57.5%TS (league average from 08-13 was around 53-54%TS)

Kobe just shot more 3s so his FG% is lower, he averaged 5.1 3PA from 08-10 Playoffs vs. Lebron's 4 & Jordan's 3, Kobe was 50% on 2s, which is close to peak MJ's 50.9% (their eFG% being ~1% apart as well) in the 91-93 Playoffs and above 2nd 3-Peat MJ, so he was somewhere between peak and 2nd 3-Peat Jordan statistically when you look at his scoring efficiency.

It's just another one of these narratives made up by the anti-Kobe/Lakers folk, prime Kobe during the 3 straight Finals run was on par with all of the greats before the 3-Point chucking era, where now everyone has a 60+%TS and the league average is significantly higher and is climbing with each season.

When taken all games into account, Jordan’s scoring against -3, -4, and better defences weren’t as resilient as LeBron’s or Kareem’s scoring, especially when looking at eFG% as Jordan’s TS% got greatly aided by soft calls on the perimeter when he wasn’t shooting well.



But on the whole, with his volume, the offence was always just good enough to win even when not spectacular given the defence his teams wound up playing. Additionally, Jordan’s playmaking and opportunity creation has always been a strong suit that doesn’t get mentioned enough, which helped the Bulls have a very good offensive series even when Jordan struggled shooting.



Lastly, in series in which Jordan struggled, his teammates often picked up the slack and the Bulls’ team offence performed well.

Against the great 1993 Knicks defence, very good 1997 Heat, 1996 Sonics, 1997 Hawks, for example, Jordan didn’t score efficiently, but the Bulls wound up having very good or good offensive series (+12.7 rORtg vs. the Knicks, +3.4 rORtg vs the Heat, +9.1 rORtg vs the Sonics, +12.6 rORtg vs the Hawks).

1993 Knicks, -8.3 rDRtg, -1.4 rTS%, -1.2 reFG% [Knicks’ DRtg 99.7, Bulls’ ORtg for series 112.4]

1997 Heat, -6.1 rDRtg, -6.1 rTS%, -7.1 reFG% [100.6, 104.0]

1996 Sonics, -5.5 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, -4.0 reFG% [102.1, 111.3]

1989 Cavs, -4.9 rDRtg, +6.1 rTS%, +5.3 reFG% [102.9, 106.8]

1990 Pistons, -4.6 rDRtg, +2.9 rTS%, +2.4 reFG% [103.5, 101.4]

1986 Celtics, -4.6 rDRtg, +4.3 rTS%, +4.5 reFG% [102.6, 108.3]

1997 Hawks, -4.4 rDRtg, -3.0 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [102.3, 114.9]

1985 Bucks, -4.3 rDRtg, +2.2 rTS, -2.5 reFG% [103.6, 108.7]

1996 Knicks, -4.1 rDRtg, -.8 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [103.5, 105.2]

1992 Blazers, -4.0 rDRtg, +8.6% rTS%, +9.4 reFG% [104.6, 110.8]

1992 Knicks, -4.0 rDRtg, +2.1 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.2, 111.2]

1996 Heat, -3.8 rDRtg, +5.7 rTS%, -2.3 reFG% [103.8, 119.2]

1998 Pacers, -3.4 rDRtg, +3.2 rTS%, +3.2 reFG% [101.6, 114.2]

1991 Pistons, -3.3 rDRtg, +11.2 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [104.6, 121.6]

1989 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg, +2.4 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.7, 103.1]

1991 Lakers, -2.9 rDRtg, +7.8 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [105.0, 115.7]

1988 Pistons, -2.7 rDRtg, +1.1 rTS%, +1.1 reFG% [105.3, 95.8]

1997 Jazz, -2.7 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, +.1 reFG% [104.0, 104.6]

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe faced tougher defences in the playoffs than Jordan in the playoffs and the stats back that up.


AVG D faced rankings alltime

4th Kobe Bryant -1.7 playoff games played 201

6th Michael Jordan -1.11 playoff games played 178

Throughout Kobe Bryant's Entire 20 year Career, he played in 43 playoff series. Of those 43 series, he faced 5 below league average defences.

• 1998 Jazz
• 1999 Rockets
• 2003 Timberwolves
• 2010 Suns
• 2012 Nuggets

[3ba11]

When taken all games into account, Jordan’s scoring against -3, -4, and better defences weren’t as resilient as LeBron’s or Kareem’s scoring, especially when looking at eFG% as Jordan’s TS% got greatly aided by soft calls on the perimeter when he wasn’t shooting well.



But on the whole, with his volume, the offence was always just good enough to win even when not spectacular given the defence his teams wound up playing. Additionally, Jordan’s playmaking and opportunity creation has always been a strong suit that doesn’t get mentioned enough, which helped the Bulls have a very good offensive series even when Jordan struggled shooting.



Lastly, in series in which Jordan struggled, his teammates often picked up the slack and the Bulls’ team offence performed well.

Against the great 1993 Knicks defence, very good 1997 Heat, 1996 Sonics, 1997 Hawks, for example, Jordan didn’t score efficiently, but the Bulls wound up having very good or good offensive series (+12.7 rORtg vs. the Knicks, +3.4 rORtg vs the Heat, +9.1 rORtg vs the Sonics, +12.6 rORtg vs the Hawks).

1993 Knicks, -8.3 rDRtg, -1.4 rTS%, -1.2 reFG% [Knicks’ DRtg 99.7, Bulls’ ORtg for series 112.4]

1997 Heat, -6.1 rDRtg, -6.1 rTS%, -7.1 reFG% [100.6, 104.0]

1996 Sonics, -5.5 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, -4.0 reFG% [102.1, 111.3]

1989 Cavs, -4.9 rDRtg, +6.1 rTS%, +5.3 reFG% [102.9, 106.8]

1990 Pistons, -4.6 rDRtg, +2.9 rTS%, +2.4 reFG% [103.5, 101.4]

1986 Celtics, -4.6 rDRtg, +4.3 rTS%, +4.5 reFG% [102.6, 108.3]

1997 Hawks, -4.4 rDRtg, -3.0 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [102.3, 114.9]

1985 Bucks, -4.3 rDRtg, +2.2 rTS, -2.5 reFG% [103.6, 108.7]

1996 Knicks, -4.1 rDRtg, -.8 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [103.5, 105.2]

1992 Blazers, -4.0 rDRtg, +8.6% rTS%, +9.4 reFG% [104.6, 110.8]

1992 Knicks, -4.0 rDRtg, +2.1 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.2, 111.2]

1996 Heat, -3.8 rDRtg, +5.7 rTS%, -2.3 reFG% [103.8, 119.2]

1998 Pacers, -3.4 rDRtg, +3.2 rTS%, +3.2 reFG% [101.6, 114.2]

1991 Pistons, -3.3 rDRtg, +11.2 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [104.6, 121.6]

1989 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg, +2.4 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.7, 103.1]

1991 Lakers, -2.9 rDRtg, +7.8 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [105.0, 115.7]

1988 Pistons, -2.7 rDRtg, +1.1 rTS%, +1.1 reFG% [105.3, 95.8]

1997 Jazz, -2.7 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, +.1 reFG% [104.0, 104.6]


Jordan averaged 40+ against #1 and #2 defenses (and #1 SRS teams), which is unprecedented.. he also shot 50% in those series.

You also need to post the sidekick stats because if a sidekick is getting 16 on 40%, that will put all the attention on MJ, which reduces his efficiency.

In most of those series that you posted where Jordan's efficiency wasn't elite, Pippen averaged 16 on 40%... or worse... Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals.

[ImKobe]

Kobe faced tougher defences in the playoffs than Jordan in the playoffs and the stats back that up.


AVG D faced rankings alltime

4th Kobe Bryant -1.7 playoff games played 201

6th Michael Jordan -1.11 playoff games played 178

Throughout Kobe Bryant's Entire 20 year Career, he played in 43 playoff series. Of those 43 series, he faced 5 below league average defences.

• 1998 Jazz
• 1999 Rockets
• 2003 Timberwolves
• 2010 Suns
• 2012 Nuggets

Yup. Kobe from 08-10 alone beat more 50-win teams than Magic had his entire career and Magic went to 9 Finals. Just shows you how tough the WC was during Kobe's prime.

https://pics.me.me/august-2-2016-taking-down-giants-most-times-eliminating-a-30184914.png

The Lebron stat is obviously outdated, but it shows you that Kobe and MJ played in tougher Conferences than anyone else over the course of their careers.

[MadDog]

One thing I would say Kobe was on par with MJ was work ethic and skills. Now, "skills" is relative because if you have 2 guys with the exact same skill level but one guy is close to a tier better as an athlete, he'll just be better for obvious reasons and I think you were hinting at this. But still, gotta hand it to Kobe, he did an amazing job of copying MJ (no disrespect meant towards Kobe, he imitated the GOAT), and did a close copycat. In terms of PURE skills and taking out natural talent, Kobe can sit on the same table with MJ. Heck, you can even argue he was the most skilled player ever.

Yeah, Kobe's work ethic and skills are legendary. For a guard, Kobe had everything in his bag AND some. The move I thought Kobe perfected was the one dribble, reverse pivot jumper. Not that he just got points doing it, but how it looked when Kobe executed it. Was about as clean you're ever gonna see.

Overall though Jordan's skills were definitely on par. He had that reverse pivot too. I mentioned some of the skills in that post you quoted, but Jordan also had a better post game, fadeaway and off-hand. Was a better/more willing passer and shot the 3 better in the playoffs. The only skill Kobe objectively beat Jordan in were handles. You could also argue long range 2s, but I wouldn't be too sure on that.

All in all, both are the most skilled 2 guards ever. MJ just had more ways to beat you, which makes sense. He is the GOAT.

[Gudo]

Yup. Kobe from 08-10 alone beat more 50-win teams than Magic had his entire career and Magic went to 9 Finals. Just shows you how tough the WC was during Kobe's prime.

https://pics.me.me/august-2-2016-taking-down-giants-most-times-eliminating-a-30184914.png

The Lebron stat is obviously outdated, but it shows you that Kobe and MJ played in tougher Conferences than anyone else over the course of their careers.

Is this a typo or fake? No way Lebron can't be that low right? Lol

[coastalmarker99]

Yup. Kobe from 08-10 alone beat more 50-win teams than Magic had his entire career and Magic went to 9 Finals. Just shows you how tough the WC was during Kobe's prime.

https://pics.me.me/august-2-2016-taking-down-giants-most-times-eliminating-a-30184914.png

The Lebron stat is obviously outdated, but it shows you that Kobe and MJ played in tougher Conferences than anyone else over the course of their careers.


Good Lord Kobe in the 80's west that played no defence and had so many bad teams would have been putting up unreal stat-lines.


The dude at 22 years old was playing as if he was the best player in the world during the first 3 rounds of the 2001 playoffs.


Also, people forget that Kobe would have loved facing no zone defences in the '80s due to the rules of that era.


Kobe would have been allowed to play 1 vs 1 and he would be unstoppable as 80's defences wouldn't be able to contain him.

[j3lademaster]

Yup. Kobe from 08-10 alone beat more 50-win teams than Magic had his entire career and Magic went to 9 Finals. Just shows you how tough the WC was during Kobe's prime.

https://pics.me.me/august-2-2016-taking-down-giants-most-times-eliminating-a-30184914.png

The Lebron stat is obviously outdated, but it shows you that Kobe and MJ played in tougher Conferences than anyone else over the course of their careers.
I see the shit-flinging already for the next 3 pages. I’ll just summarize to save everyone the trouble:
Kobe’s shouldn’t count because he had Shaq and Melo Nuggets and Deron Jazz don’t count as 50w teams

Well then Derozan Raps and the Hawks shouldn’t count either

Something about how thicc someone’s favorite player is

Etc etc etc

[coastalmarker99]

2005 and 2007 Kobe in the '80s with the illegal defence rules averages over 40 a game and I am not joking.


When i say that as can you imagine allowing prime Kobe or even 2001 Kobe to play one vs one all the time because you can't help unless you fully double him.


Kobe would 100% be a better scorer in the 1980s than he already was in the 2000s due to the rules of those eras.




It's literally the best era for a guy like Kobe you have two options one you let him score 40+ a game or two you double him and leave someone open at all times and Kobe is capable of making the right passes to make you pay if you try that tactic against him.

[WhiteKyrie]

Yup. Kobe from 08-10 alone beat more 50-win teams than Magic had his entire career and Magic went to 9 Finals. Just shows you how tough the WC was during Kobe's prime.

https://pics.me.me/august-2-2016-taking-down-giants-most-times-eliminating-a-30184914.png

The Lebron stat is obviously outdated, but it shows you that Kobe and MJ played in tougher Conferences than anyone else over the course of their careers.
Not even accurate for Kobe. I would subtract all the 50+ win teams faces from 1997 - 2000. As he wasn’t even a bonnafide superstar or franchise player or his teams best player or performing like a number one option. Inflates it a little tbh.

[WhiteKyrie]

2005 and 2007 Kobe in the '80s with the illegal defence rules averages over 40 a game and I am not joking.


When i say that as can you imagine allowing prime Kobe or even 2001 Kobe to play one vs one all the time because you can't help unless you fully double him.


Kobe would 100% be a better scorer in the 1980s than he already was in the 2000s due to the rules of those eras.




It's literally the best era for a guy like Kobe you have two options one you let him score 40+ a game or two you double him and leave someone open at all times and Kobe is capable of making the right passes to make you pay if you try that tactic against him.
He had soft rules from 2006 forward.

And especially in 2006, they called more fouls in favor of assisting freedom of movement or shot creation for perimeter players … that everyone saw like a 2-4 ppg spike in what they would normally or probably should average. Defense wasn’t near as good on average as it became in the 90s and especially from like 1992 - 1999 but there was a level of physicality allowed that some players might not be accustomed to or able to handle.

And Kobe def struggled with the more physical based defensive teams. It’s why a slashing and cutting, attack the teeth of the defense guy like Dwyane Wade performed far superior against the same defenses that Kobe Bryant, a more skillful and finesse player struggled against.

Michael Jordan however was like the greatest combination of both those guys in the shooting guard form. He had the speed, quickness, and attacking ability of Dwaine Wade. And the skill, foot work, finesse, and pull up jumper game like Kobe. But he didn’t become addicted to either scenario like each one of those players.

[ImKobe]

I didn't say he was inefficient. I said he had the tools to be more efficient. Do you have any capability to discuss Kobe if it's not outright praise? Cause I do like him as a player, always did, but jesus christ. Theres no discussing him with some of you. Theres no reason he couldnt have routinely been a 48% shooter between 2001 and 2010. I dont care what his TS% is relative to league norm, I'm talking about him specifically and what his skillset could have been capable of.

Maybe in a different system with more spacing around him that opened up more driving lanes, but you can't expect him to shoot a higher FG% when he played in the toughest defensive era with Shaq clogging up the paint in the early 2000s followed by playing on horrible teams for 3 straight years, followed by him playing with more bigs in Bynum/Gasol that clogged the paint up as well. He was a volume jump shooter, you can't expect him to have a higher FG% with the volume of mid-range shots & 3s that he took and the amount of bailout shots he was constantly asked to take. TS% is a more accurate stat when looking at scoring efficiency anyways.


Kobe '07 - 31.6 ppg 58.0%TS

T-Mac '04 - 32.1 ppg 56.4%TS
Iverson '06 - 33.0 ppg 54.3%TS
Lebron '06 - 31.4 ppg 56.8%TS
Lebron '08 - 30.0 ppg 56.8%TS
Wade '09 - 30.2 ppg 57.4%TS

And he had as many seasons of averaging 10+ FTA as Lebron & AI (3) and more than Jordan & Wade (2).

The only gripe I have with him is his 3-point efficiency, he lost the efficiency on his long range shot once he started piling up leg injuries and he should have dialed it back and played closer to the basket at that point. It fell all the way off after the 2010 title run.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Maybe in a different system with more spacing around him that opened up more driving lanes, but you can't expect him to shoot a higher FG% when he played in the toughest defensive era with Shaq clogging up the paint in the early 2000s followed by playing on horrible teams for 3 straight years, followed by him playing with more bigs in Bynum/Gasol that clogged the paint up as well. He was a volume jump shooter, you can't expect him to have a higher FG% with the volume of mid-range shots & 3s that he took and the amount of bailout shots he was constantly asked to take. TS% is a more accurate stat when looking at scoring efficiency anyways.


Kobe '07 - 31.6 ppg 58.0%TS

T-Mac '04 - 32.1 ppg 56.4%TS
Iverson '06 - 33.0 ppg 54.3%TS
Lebron '06 - 31.4 ppg 56.8%TS
Lebron '08 - 30.0 ppg 56.8%TS
Wade '09 - 30.2 ppg 57.4%TS

And he had as many seasons of averaging 10+ FTA as Lebron & AI (3) and more than Jordan & Wade (2).

The only gripe I have with him is his 3-point efficiency, he lost the efficiency on his long range shot once he started piling up leg injuries and he should have dialed it back and played closer to the basket at that point. It fell all the way off after the 2010 title run.

Why did Kyrie and Curry average a higher FG% and TS% than Kobe? (even though they both 3 inches shorter and took more 3s than Kobe)

Why did Kobe only shoot 43% from the field in the 2011-2012 season (still in his prime)? Thats A.I levels of efficiency

Kobe is the most overrated scorer in NBA History

[coastalmarker99]

Why did Kyrie and Curry average a higher FG% and TS% than Kobe? (even though they both 3 inches shorter and took more 3s than Kobe)

Why did Kobe only shoot 43% from the field in the 2011-2012 season (still in his prime)? Thats A.I levels of efficiency

Kobe is the most overrated scorer in NBA History


Saying that Kobe was in his prime still in 2012 is a dumb take even for a Kobe hater.


His knees were all messed up in 2011 and 2012 and he didn't have much of the same athletic plays as he had in the years prior.


Kobe's prime was from 2001 to 2010.


Just as Lebron's prime was from 2009 to 2018.


Or Wilt's from 1959 to 1968


Or even Kareem's from 1971 to 1980.

[ImKobe]

Is this a typo or fake? No way Lebron can't be that low right? Lol

He was that low after his 2016 title run. It's no surprise because he had a Finals run without facing a single 50+ win team in 2013 (all of them were bottom 10 offensively as well) and he only beat one 50+ win team in 2014. Kobe had to play 50-win teams basically in every Playoff round out West, even the 8th seeds mostly won 50 games in the late 2000s (Jazz won 48 in '09) so Kobe beat ten 50+ win teams from 08-10 alone.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Saying that Kobe was in his prime still in 2012 is a dumb take.


His knees were all messed up in 2011 and 2012 and he didn't have much of the same athletic plays as he had in the years prior.

Kobe wasn't in his prime at 32 years old? :oldlol:

[coastalmarker99]

Kobe wasn't in his prime at 32 years old? :oldlol:


Yes, he wasn't in his prime anymore as he had a lot of wear and tear on his body at that stage of his career.


It should be noted that most players in NBA history are no longer in their primes at age 32 to 33.


Bird was a shell of himself at that age.

Magic was retired.

Tim was basically being load managed

Wilt was a super role player that only focused on defence and rebounding plus playmaking.

Kareem started to lean more on Magic.

Jordan was no longer his 1987 to 1993 self at age 32.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron's prime ended after 2018 when he was only 33 years old.


He showed us that from 2019 to 2021 that he no longer has the energy anymore to carry a team on both sides of the court as he did for so long in his prime years.


He is starting to get injured more often as well as he has missed a lot of time during the past 3 seasons after 2018.

[LAL]

When Kobe had a smaller sg or pg guarding him, he'd smile, back them up then a turnaround jumper like they weren't there. Kinda like what MJ faced every game it seems at his position and the illegal defense rule making life even easier. Kobe's fg% are fine for a 6'6 SG going up against bigger SG/SFs, modern zone defenses and playing in a triangle where you you can't dribble the ball all game and pass up shots then wait at the center of the court blowing hands.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Bottom Line: Kobe was:

- A below average 3 point shooter

- Below average overall scoring efficiency (FG%)

- Average finisher in the paint efficiency

- Below average as a Finals performer



And this guy is supposed to be the "most skilled scorer ever"? :oldlol:


Every roster in today's NBA has 2-3 players that were more skilled than Kobe ever was

[coastalmarker99]

Bottom Line: Kobe was:

- A below average 3 point shooter

- Below average overall scoring efficiency (FG%)

- Average finisher in the paint efficiency

- Below average as a Finals performer



And this guy is supposed to be the "most skilled scorer ever"? :oldlol:


Every roster in today's NBA has 2-3 players that were more skilled than Kobe ever was


If you asked every single NBA player today if they were more skilled than Kobe offensively speaking I bet you all of them or at least most of them would say hell no.


Kobe has a serious argument for being the most skilful player in NBA history with his countless moves and ability to hit some of the toughest shots you ever will see in your life.

[3ba11]

Lebron's prime ended after 2018 when he was only 33 years old.


He showed us that from 2019 to 2021 that he no longer has the energy anymore to carry a team on both sides of the court as he did for so long in his prime years.


He is starting to get injured more often as well as he has missed a lot of time during the past 3 seasons after 2018.


forgot to logout of your alt or something?

[Pip' N Rodman]

Lebron's prime ended after 2018 when he was only 33 years old.


He showed us that from 2019 to 2021 that he no longer has the energy anymore to carry a team on both sides of the court as he did for so long in his prime years.


He is starting to get injured more often as well as he has missed a lot of time during the past 3 seasons after 2018.

So then how was his 2020 Year 17 playoff and Finals runs better than all of Kobe's (including Kobe's prime) as well as 2nd 3 peat Jordan?

[coastalmarker99]

forgot to logout of your alt or something?

I am not an alt 3ball like you.

[coastalmarker99]

So then how was his 2020 Year 17 playoff and Finals runs better than all of Kobe's (including Kobe's prime) as well as 2nd 3 peat Jordan?


You have to factor in the fact that Lebron had a 4-month break plus played in arenas with no fans which lead to inflated stats as there is no way that Butler drops a 40 point triple-double in a normal NBA setting.

[WhiteKyrie]

When Kobe had a smaller sg or pg guarding him, he'd smile, back them up then a turnaround jumper like they weren't there. Kinda like what MJ faced every game it seems at his position and the illegal defense rule making life even easier. Kobe's fg% are fine for a 6'6 SG going up against bigger SG/SFs, modern zone defenses and playing in a triangle where you you can't dribble the ball all game and pass up shots then wait at the center of the court blowing hands.
What the hell are you talking about?

When was Michael facing point guard sized defenders consistently?

If you’re referring to John Starks, the dude was 6 foot 4. And was a combo guard.

Also, obviously you’re retarded, so you don’t understand why they put John Starks on him.

See, Michael Jordan was 6 foot 6, with insane quickness, speed, athleticism, and leaping ability to finish at the rim imploding a defense from the inside - out.

Normally Mike faced guys roughly his height or even relative level of athleticism. Stacy Augmon, the plastic man, who is 6 foot 8. Alvin Robertson, Dennis Rodman in his athletic prime. Gerald Wilkins, Domonique’s brother, who is 6 foot 6 and also very athletic. Shannon Anderson, Byron Russell who is 6 foot 8. Long, and tall defenders. Mike had no issues with those guys. Do you know why?

Because Mike had the foot speed and accelerating ability of a small guard. So in an effort to negate dribble penetration, the New York Knicks put John Starks on him, because he was a smaller and quicker guard. And Mike torched him in the post.

It was the same thing with Joe Dumars, a combo guard, who was ridiculously good as an on ball defender due to his small guard quickness. Same thing with Gary Payton.

Meanwhile James Posey gave Kobe Bryant fits in the 2008 Finals, simply because Kobe Bryant was obsessive with his jumpshot, and didn’t make the defense collapse by beating his man off the dribble or out of the triple threat by trying to collapse the defense at the front of the rim. James Posey, and Tayshaun Prince, all they needed to do was put there long arms up to contest Kobe shots. And it was done. Kobe was too obsessive with the jumper. And that’s why he had putrid performances in 2004 and 2008.

Because he also didn’t want to deal with the physicality at the rim that was way tougher than the soft like baby shit interior defenses he faced out west.

Which is smoking gun proof why he would struggle with the Bad Boy Pistons, the 80s Boston Celtics, the 80s Milwaukee Bucks, the late 90s Pat Riley Miami Heat, and definitely the Pat Riley New York Knicks Thug teams.

All they needed to do was throw Anthony Mason on him, who is 6 foot 10, contest Kobe Bryants jumper, and there’s no way he was going to drive in the paint to try to take on Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, and Charles Smith at the rim. That takes way too much heart and toughness.

And let’s be honest even struggled a little bit in 2010 as well against Tony Allen and Ray Allen.

Which is why Dwyane Wade, absolutely obliterated that same Celtics team every time he faced them. Because nobody could stay in front of him.

Same way nobody could stay in front of Mike. And if they did, they would have to put a smaller guard on him, and Mike just played chess. And would shoot over them.

Kobe Bryant didn’t have that dimension to his game at the same level as Michael Jordan or Dwyane Wade. Who were both really explosive, quick, for big guards pen Shooting Guards. Kobe was quick, yes, but not lightning like Mike or D-Wade.

[3ba11]

What the hell are you talking about?

When was Michael facing point guard sized defenders consistently?

If you’re referring to John Starks, the dude was 6 foot 4. And was a combo guard.

Also, obviously you’re retarded, so you don’t understand why they put John Starks on him.

See, Michael Jordan was 6 foot 6, with insane quickness, speed, athleticism, and leaping ability to finish at the rim imploding a defense from the inside - out.

Normally Mike faced guys roughly his height or even relative level of athleticism. Stacy Augmon, the plastic man, who is 6 foot 8. Alvin Robertson, Dennis Rodman in his athletic prime. Gerald Wilkins, Domonique’s brother, who is 6 foot 6 and also very athletic. Shannon Anderson, Byron Russell who is 6 foot 8. Long, and tall defenders. Mike had no issues with those guys. Do you know why?

Because Mike had the foot speed and accelerating ability of a small guard. So in an effort to negate dribble penetration, the New York Knicks put John Starks on him, because he was a smaller and quicker guard. And Mike torched him in the post.

It was the same thing with Joe Dumars, a combo guard, who was ridiculously good as an on ball defender due to his small guard quickness. Same thing with Gary Payton.

Meanwhile James Posey gave Kobe Bryant fits in the 2008 Finals, simply because Kobe Bryant was obsessive with his jumpshot, and didn’t make the defense collapse by beating his man off the dribble or out of the triple threat by trying to collapse the defense at the front of the rim. James Posey, and Tayshaun Prince, all they needed to do was put there long arms up to contest Kobe shots. And it was done. Kobe was too obsessive with the jumper. And that’s why he had putrid performances in 2004 and 2008.

Because he also didn’t want to deal with the physicality at the rim that was way tougher than the soft like baby shit interior defenses he faced out west.

Which is smoking gun proof why he would struggle with the Bad Boy Pistons, the 80s Boston Celtics, the 80s Milwaukee Bucks, the late 90s Pat Riley Miami Heat, and definitely the Pat Riley New York Knicks Thug teams.

All they needed to do was throw Anthony Mason on him, who is 6 foot 10, contest Kobe Bryants jumper, and there’s no way he was going to drive in the paint to try to take on Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, and Charles Smith at the rim. That takes way too much heart and toughness.

And let’s be honest even struggled a little bit in 2010 as well against Tony Allen and Ray Allen.

Which is why Dwyane Wade, absolutely obliterated that same Celtics team every time he faced them. Because nobody could stay in front of him.

Same way nobody could stay in front of Mike. And if they did, they would have to put a smaller guard on him, and Mike just played chess. And would shoot over them.

Kobe Bryant didn’t have that dimension to his game at the same level as Michael Jordan or Dwyane Wade. Who were both really explosive, quick, for big guards pen Shooting Guards. Kobe was quick, yes, but not lightning like Mike or D-Wade.


Wow.. a lot of truths in this post.. I was going to bold a few of them but there's too many

[000]

Wow.. a lot of truths in this post.. I was going to bold a few of them but there's too many
Jordan was never guarded by 8 ppg benchplayer iggy or roleplayer kawhi. He sucks:mad:

[WhiteKyrie]

Career

30/6/5 vs 25/5/4

Career Playoff

33/6/6 vs 26/5/5

Love Kobe Bryant. Second greatest shooting guard of all time. Top 10 player of all time. May he Rest In Peace after his tragic passing.

But this numerical difference in both career regular season and playoff performance is indicative of Kobe’s greatness, and the even superior greatness of Michael Jordan. The greatest player of all time.

It’s funny because I bet even Kobe would co-sign this, if he were still here today. As he already has publicly.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Career

30/6/5 vs 25/5/4

Career Playoff

33/6/6 vs 26/5/5

Love Kobe Bryant. Second greatest shooting guard of all time. Top 10 player of all time. May he Rest In Peace after his tragic passing.

But this numerical difference in both career regular season and playoff performance is indicative of Kobe’s greatness, and the even superior greatness of Michael Jordan. The greatest player of all time.

It’s funny because I bet even Kobe would co-sign this, if he were still here today. As he already has publicly.

Now do Jordan and LeBron, and also post FG% and TS%

[WhiteKyrie]

Now do Jordan and LeBron, and also post FG% and TS%

Do you also want resumes success, accolades and accomplishments, including number of 50 and 60 win teams that they beat? Do I also include finals record, and the number of perennial all stars each player played with?

[Pip' N Rodman]

Do you also want resumes success, accolades and accomplishments, including number of 50 and 60 win teams that they beat? Do I also include finals record, and the number of perennial all stars each player played with?

Yes, do all except instead of using all-stars use All-NBA and All-Defensive teammates (better indication of quality help)

[ImKobe]

Career

30/6/5 vs 25/5/4

Career Playoff

33/6/6 vs 26/5/5

Love Kobe Bryant. Second greatest shooting guard of all time. Top 10 player of all time. May he Rest In Peace after his tragic passing.

But this numerical difference in both career regular season and playoff performance is indicative of Kobe’s greatness, and the even superior greatness of Michael Jordan. The greatest player of all time.

It’s funny because I bet even Kobe would co-sign this, if he were still here today. As he already has publicly.

Kobe came into the league as a 17 y.o and didn't start until '99 and wasn't put into a superstar role until 2001 as a 22 y.o, MJ came into the league at 21 and turned 22 his rookie year.

RS 01-13: 28/6/5
PO 01-12: 29/6/5

Kobe as a 22 y.o averaged 29/7/6 on a 15 - 1 title team and led the Playoffs in WS and RAPM.

[WhiteKyrie]

Kobe came into the league as a 17 y.o and didn't start until '99 and wasn't put into a superstar role until 2001 as a 22 y.o, MJ came into the league at 21 and turned 22 his rookie year.

RS 01-13: 28/6/5
PO 01-12: 29/6/5

Kobe as a 22 y.o averaged 29/7/6 on a 15 - 1 title team and led the Playoffs in WS and RAPM.
No, Michael came into the league as a 21 year old. You’re using the basketball reference age which is wrong. Michael was 21 in 1984 when the season started.

So if you want to go based off age, it would be Kobe in 2000 vs Michael in 1984. But Kobe had 3 years of NBA experience by that season. As opposed to collegiate. That could be used in his favor as an advantage.

Also, that’s Kobe’s choice to come out early. It’s also why he has more years to accrue accumulative counting stats. You can’t have it all ways under the sun.

And if you do that, then let’s remove Jordan’s Wizard years as a 39 and 40-year-old man. Those two seasons brought his averages down the same way 1997 - 1999 bring Mamba’s down. Kobe Bryant didn’t make it to those ages playing in the NBA.

:confusedshrug:

[Phoenix]

Maybe in a different system with more spacing around him that opened up more driving lanes, but you can't expect him to shoot a higher FG% when he played in the toughest defensive era with Shaq clogging up the paint in the early 2000s followed by playing on horrible teams for 3 straight years, followed by him playing with more bigs in Bynum/Gasol that clogged the paint up as well. He was a volume jump shooter, you can't expect him to have a higher FG% with the volume of mid-range shots & 3s that he took and the amount of bailout shots he was constantly asked to take. TS% is a more accurate stat when looking at scoring efficiency anyways.


Kobe '07 - 31.6 ppg 58.0%TS

T-Mac '04 - 32.1 ppg 56.4%TS
Iverson '06 - 33.0 ppg 54.3%TS
Lebron '06 - 31.4 ppg 56.8%TS
Lebron '08 - 30.0 ppg 56.8%TS
Wade '09 - 30.2 ppg 57.4%TS

And he had as many seasons of averaging 10+ FTA as Lebron & AI (3) and more than Jordan & Wade (2).

The only gripe I have with him is his 3-point efficiency, he lost the efficiency on his long range shot once he started piling up leg injuries and he should have dialed it back and played closer to the basket at that point. It fell all the way off after the 2010 title run.

TS% takes into account 3 point shooting and he fell too much in love with the shot,especially as time went on. A bit less reliance on that and a few more higher percentage midrange shots would have boosted it. Whatever his numbers are compared to other perimeter stars, if you're of the impression that Kobe is the best of them all( and you no doubt have that opinion) then I don't really care what eg D.Wade'sTS% was. Irrelevant. You say Shaq limited driving lanes but he also commanded double teams that should have opened up things on the perimeter, starting with Kobe.

[eliteballer]

Rookie Jordan 21/22 years old.

2001 Kobe 22 years old...

Compare the numbers, and remember Kobe wasn't in the fast paced 80's.
Fools..

[ImKobe]

No, Michael came into the league as a 21 year old. You’re using the basketball reference age which is wrong. Michael was 21 in 1984 when the season started.

So if you want to go based off age, it would be Kobe in 2000 vs Michael in 1984. But Kobe had 3 years of NBA experience by that season. As opposed to collegiate. That could be used in his favor as an advantage.

Also, that’s Kobe’s choice to come out early. It’s also why he has more years to accrue accumulative counting stats. You can’t have it all ways under the sun.

And if you do that, then let’s remove Jordan’s Wizard years as a 39 and 40-year-old man. Those two seasons brought his averages down the same way 1997 - 1999 bring Mamba’s down. Kobe Bryant didn’t make it to those ages playing in the NBA.

:confusedshrug:

That's what I said, MJ was 21 and turned 22 during the RS. They both came into their superstar role around the same age.

All I'm saying is that the gap isn't as wide as some make it out to be. Of course MJ is the GOAT so there's no debating that part.

[Phoenix]

What the hell are you talking about?

When was Michael facing point guard sized defenders consistently?

If you’re referring to John Starks, the dude was 6 foot 4. And was a combo guard.

Also, obviously you’re retarded, so you don’t understand why they put John Starks on him.

See, Michael Jordan was 6 foot 6, with insane quickness, speed, athleticism, and leaping ability to finish at the rim imploding a defense from the inside - out.

Normally Mike faced guys roughly his height or even relative level of athleticism. Stacy Augmon, the plastic man, who is 6 foot 8. Alvin Robertson, Dennis Rodman in his athletic prime. Gerald Wilkins, Domonique’s brother, who is 6 foot 6 and also very athletic. Shannon Anderson, Byron Russell who is 6 foot 8. Long, and tall defenders. Mike had no issues with those guys. Do you know why?

Because Mike had the foot speed and accelerating ability of a small guard. So in an effort to negate dribble penetration, the New York Knicks put John Starks on him, because he was a smaller and quicker guard. And Mike torched him in the post.

It was the same thing with Joe Dumars, a combo guard, who was ridiculously good as an on ball defender due to his small guard quickness. Same thing with Gary Payton.

Meanwhile James Posey gave Kobe Bryant fits in the 2008 Finals, simply because Kobe Bryant was obsessive with his jumpshot, and didn’t make the defense collapse by beating his man off the dribble or out of the triple threat by trying to collapse the defense at the front of the rim. James Posey, and Tayshaun Prince, all they needed to do was put there long arms up to contest Kobe shots. And it was done. Kobe was too obsessive with the jumper. And that’s why he had putrid performances in 2004 and 2008.

Because he also didn’t want to deal with the physicality at the rim that was way tougher than the soft like baby shit interior defenses he faced out west.

Which is smoking gun proof why he would struggle with the Bad Boy Pistons, the 80s Boston Celtics, the 80s Milwaukee Bucks, the late 90s Pat Riley Miami Heat, and definitely the Pat Riley New York Knicks Thug teams.

All they needed to do was throw Anthony Mason on him, who is 6 foot 10, contest Kobe Bryants jumper, and there’s no way he was going to drive in the paint to try to take on Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, and Charles Smith at the rim. That takes way too much heart and toughness.

And let’s be honest even struggled a little bit in 2010 as well against Tony Allen and Ray Allen.

Which is why Dwyane Wade, absolutely obliterated that same Celtics team every time he faced them. Because nobody could stay in front of him.

Same way nobody could stay in front of Mike. And if they did, they would have to put a smaller guard on him, and Mike just played chess. And would shoot over them.

Kobe Bryant didn’t have that dimension to his game at the same level as Michael Jordan or Dwyane Wade. Who were both really explosive, quick, for big guards pen Shooting Guards. Kobe was quick, yes, but not lightning like Mike or D-Wade.

Also why the Suns in 93 tried KJ on MJ. You either live with his jumpshot and hope hes having an off day,or live with putting a bigger guard on him like Thunder Dan.....and we know what happened there. Simpletons here think height and athleticism= great defense but lateral quickness, foot speed, anticipation and knowing how to play the angles are the best attributes for a defender. Gary Payton wasnt the most athletic of PGs but he know how to get into your shooting space and stay in front of you playing the angles.

[theman93]

What the hell are you talking about?

When was Michael facing point guard sized defenders consistently?

If you’re referring to John Starks, the dude was 6 foot 4. And was a combo guard.

Also, obviously you’re retarded, so you don’t understand why they put John Starks on him.

See, Michael Jordan was 6 foot 6, with insane quickness, speed, athleticism, and leaping ability to finish at the rim imploding a defense from the inside - out.

Normally Mike faced guys roughly his height or even relative level of athleticism. Stacy Augmon, the plastic man, who is 6 foot 8. Alvin Robertson, Dennis Rodman in his athletic prime. Gerald Wilkins, Domonique’s brother, who is 6 foot 6 and also very athletic. Shannon Anderson, Byron Russell who is 6 foot 8. Long, and tall defenders. Mike had no issues with those guys. Do you know why?

Because Mike had the foot speed and accelerating ability of a small guard. So in an effort to negate dribble penetration, the New York Knicks put John Starks on him, because he was a smaller and quicker guard. And Mike torched him in the post.

It was the same thing with Joe Dumars, a combo guard, who was ridiculously good as an on ball defender due to his small guard quickness. Same thing with Gary Payton.

Meanwhile James Posey gave Kobe Bryant fits in the 2008 Finals, simply because Kobe Bryant was obsessive with his jumpshot, and didn’t make the defense collapse by beating his man off the dribble or out of the triple threat by trying to collapse the defense at the front of the rim. James Posey, and Tayshaun Prince, all they needed to do was put there long arms up to contest Kobe shots. And it was done. Kobe was too obsessive with the jumper. And that’s why he had putrid performances in 2004 and 2008.

Because he also didn’t want to deal with the physicality at the rim that was way tougher than the soft like baby shit interior defenses he faced out west.

Which is smoking gun proof why he would struggle with the Bad Boy Pistons, the 80s Boston Celtics, the 80s Milwaukee Bucks, the late 90s Pat Riley Miami Heat, and definitely the Pat Riley New York Knicks Thug teams.

All they needed to do was throw Anthony Mason on him, who is 6 foot 10, contest Kobe Bryants jumper, and there’s no way he was going to drive in the paint to try to take on Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, and Charles Smith at the rim. That takes way too much heart and toughness.

And let’s be honest even struggled a little bit in 2010 as well against Tony Allen and Ray Allen.

Which is why Dwyane Wade, absolutely obliterated that same Celtics team every time he faced them. Because nobody could stay in front of him.

Same way nobody could stay in front of Mike. And if they did, they would have to put a smaller guard on him, and Mike just played chess. And would shoot over them.

Kobe Bryant didn’t have that dimension to his game at the same level as Michael Jordan or Dwyane Wade. Who were both really explosive, quick, for big guards pen Shooting Guards. Kobe was quick, yes, but not lightning like Mike or D-Wade.

:applause::applause::applause:

[2much_knowledge]

Now do Jordan and LeBron, and also post FG% and TS%

Its not all about lebron and this thread isn't about it either.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe came into the league as a 17 y.o and didn't start until '99 and wasn't put into a superstar role until 2001 as a 22 y.o, MJ came into the league at 21 and turned 22 his rookie year.

RS 01-13: 28/6/5
PO 01-12: 29/6/5

Kobe as a 22 y.o averaged 29/7/6 on a 15 - 1 title team and led the Playoffs in WS and RAPM.

Kobe could have started as a rookie if would have let the Nets draft him.

[ImKobe]

TS% takes into account 3 point shooting and he fell too much in love with the shot,especially as time went on. A bit less reliance on that and a few more higher percentage midrange shots would have boosted it. Whatever his numbers are compared to other perimeter stars, if you're of the impression that Kobe is the best of them all( and you no doubt have that opinion) then I don't really care what eg D.Wade'sTS% was. Irrelevant. You say Shaq limited driving lanes but he also commanded double teams that should have opened up things on the perimeter, starting with Kobe.

Agreed on the 3-point shooting part past his prime years. He was effective from 3, so he was right to take 5-6 threes a game at 35-37% efficiency, that made him a better all-around scorer.

And yes, Shaq pulled the defenses in, which resulted in more open jump shots, but they're jump shots nonetheless and only a few high-volume jump shooters got to around 50%FG in that era while averaging 25+ ppg. KD's consistently been at 50% in his prime and he's a damn 7-footer and he's played with the best shooters since 2017 (look at his efficiency in the Playoffs in OKC with poor spacing), even Dirk didn't score at a high volume when he had his 50%FG seasons and was around 46-47%FG in the early 2000s.

I'm not sure why you don't respect the TS% stat, it factors in everything. FT shooting is also a part of the game and shouldn't be left out when discussing the best scorers in the league. Wade and Lebron might have the higher FG% but their average FT shooting brings down their overall scoring efficiency, which should be accounted for. Harden's FG% isn't great but no one would argue that he isn't efficient enough, same with Lillard.

[Rysio]

Was rookie Jordan better than 98 Jordan? Cuz statistically he was lol but obviously that's just stats.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Career

30/6/5 vs 25/5/4

Career Playoff

33/6/6 vs 26/5/5

Love Kobe Bryant. Second greatest shooting guard of all time. Top 10 player of all time. May he Rest In Peace after his tragic passing.

But this numerical difference in both career regular season and playoff performance is indicative of Kobe’s greatness, and the even superior greatness of Michael Jordan. The greatest player of all time.

It’s funny because I bet even Kobe would co-sign this, if he were still here today. As he already has publicly.

kobes real career average is like 28ppg if you don't count his first 2 years on the bench or the post Achilles rupture shit

and if Kobe started his career as 1st option in the mid 80s he's probly got a 30ppg+ career average too

[Orange_Cassidy]

Bottom Line: Kobe was:

- A below average 3 point shooter

- Below average overall scoring efficiency (FG%)

- Average finisher in the paint efficiency

- Below average as a Finals performer



And this guy is supposed to be the "most skilled scorer ever"? :oldlol:


Every roster in today's NBA has 2-3 players that were more skilled than Kobe ever was

kobes 3 point % was 34% before the Achilles rupture and he basically shot contested threes every single time. mostly off balance.. he basically had video game go to moves. anyone else with these looks other than curry or durant probly shoots 20% from three. Kobe was a very good three point shooter. he just made it more difficult on himself because he wanted to demoralize the other team into submission. i rarely ever saw Kobe get wide open three point opportunities but when he got them they always went in. he would make dozens in a row in practice videos. had Kobe only taken threes like a role player shoots them he probly hits 40%+ easily for his career




Kobe never protected his 3pt% at the end of quarters by waiting till a second after the buzzer for his fake heave like lebron.. Kobe legit would take a voluntary miss once a game just to have that one time a season he would actually make one of them

Kobe never thought 10 years later people would switch from respecting proples accomplishments to nitpicking percentages. he grew up respecting titles. because back when magic and Jordan played they actually meant something and no collusion and ring chasing was going on to dilute championships for everyone

lebron literally made people stop giving a f*ck about winning. look at durant. dude legit doesn't care anymore. thanks lebron

[Phoenix]

I'm not sure why you don't respect the TS% stat, it factors in everything. FT shooting is also a part of the game and shouldn't be left out when discussing the best scorers in the league. Wade and Lebron might have the higher FG% but their average FT shooting brings down their overall scoring efficiency, which should be accounted for. Harden's FG% isn't great but no one would argue that he isn't efficient enough, same with Lillard.

I didn't say I don't respect it. I'm just saying it includes the 3point shot and if you get to a point where you're taking more than you probably should, it's going to impact your overall TS%. Didn't think it was that hard a point to follow. Kobe had the ability and stroke to operate more in the midrange during his athletic peak, and you have to look at the 3 years between Shaq and Gasol when there was no-one clogging the lane. Kobe in 2006, for example took nearly 7 3pointers a game at 35%. That's too much volume for that %. At that percentage you shouldn't be taking more than 4( back then anyway). What ended up happening is he usually heat-checked with the 3 and I just think he fell in love with it too much.

Post 2005 rule changes alot of the best perimeter players % went up. Hell, a 31 year old Iverson who routinely did 41% shooting seasons went up to 45% IIRC in 2006. You're focusing on TS% because it masks certain things you'd rather not focus on. Kobe has peak years shooting 45%. I'm talking field goal percentage without trying to obscure it behind overall TS%. Too low IMO for a player you obviously would claim to be the most skilled perimeter scorer ever, or in the discussion.

[WhiteKyrie]

kobes real career average is like 28ppg if you don't count his first 2 years on the bench or the post Achilles rupture shit

and if Kobe started his career as 1st option in the mid 80s he's probly got a 30ppg+ career average too
No his real career average is what I listed.

You’re confusing delusion and hypothetical as real, kenneth.

It all counts.

They chose to play those seasons. Same thing with Kobe’s time off the bench learning the game in 1997, 1998 and some of 1999.

Remove Mike’s injury riddled Wizard seasons as an ancient out of shape 39 and 40 year old … coming off three years of no basketball plus aging and atrophy … and he’s 32 ppg for his career.

That’s not a small discrepancy. 4 ppg for a career I mean. That’s almost an entirely different class of player by comparison.

MJ to Kobe in terms of career average is the same as Kobe to Mitch Richmond.

Mitch was one hell of a ball player. But he wasn’t Kobe Bryant.

Not saying it’s as dramatic as that, but it’s to be considered. Kobe is the second best SG ever. And at his best was like 90% of what Mike was.

As I said. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Your averages are your averages for a reason.

[Phoenix]

kobes real career average is like 28ppg if you don't count his first 2 years on the bench or the post Achilles rupture shit

and if Kobe started his career as 1st option in the mid 80s he's probly got a 30ppg+ career average too

No it isn't, it's 25ppg. You don't get to arbitrarily cut off the years that deflate his averages. It ALL counts,for EVERYONE, or you can cut off 86, 95, 2002 and 2003 for MJ on the basis of 1) injury year 2) comeback quarter season and 3) playing at 39 and 40. MJ's a like a 33-34ppg guy if you want to play that game and only count healthy prime seasons.

[Orange_Cassidy]

No his real career average is what I listed.

You’re confusing delusion and hypothetical as real, kenneth.

It all counts.

They chose to play those seasons. Same thing with Kobe’s time off the bench learning the game in 1997, 1998 and some of 1999.

Remove Mike’s injury riddled Wizard seasons as an ancient out of shape 39 and 40 year old … coming off three years of no basketball plus aging and atrophy … and he’s 32 ppg for his career.

That’s not a small discrepancy. 4 ppg for a career I mean. That’s almost an entirely different class of player by comparison.

MJ to Kobe in terms of career average is the same as Kobe to Mitch Richmond.

Mitch was one hell of a ball player. But he wasn’t Kobe Bryant.

Not saying it’s as dramatic as that, but it’s to be considered. Kobe is the second best SG ever. And at his best was like 90% of what Mike was.

As I said. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Your averages are your averages for a reason.

its silly to include years he was forced to come off the bench for being brave enough to become the first guard to ever skip college

you're punishing him for being a pioneer


it wasn't even about a lack of ability. it was just del.harris being tough on a kid that was well beyond his years. by 98 he was already dropping 30+ on jordan off the bench. imagine he starts and.plays 40 minutes. he probly drops 40+ on jordan at 19 years old. his averages don't represent his skill. kobe is the first of his generation and he paid for it

[Orange_Cassidy]

No it isn't, it's 25ppg. You don't get to arbitrarily cut off the years that deflate his averages. It ALL counts,for EVERYONE, or you can cut off 86, 95, 2002 and 2003 for MJ on the basis of 1) injury year 2) comeback quarter season and 3) playing at 39 and 40. MJ's a like a 33-34ppg guy if you want to play that game and only count healthy prime seasons.


Jordan's average was actually about to dip below 30ppg and he demanded Doug Collins change the offense and his minutes/touches so he could start gunning for the rest of the year to keep his #1 spot all time ahead of wilt. this is a fact. you can go look it up


Kobe couldnt do this in 97 or 98... and his last 3 years on 1 leg are like nothing Jordan's ever had to deal with

[WhiteKyrie]

No it isn't, it's 25ppg. You don't get to arbitrarily cut off the years that deflate his averages. It ALL counts,for EVERYONE, or you can cut off 86, 95, 2002 and 2003 for MJ on the basis of 1) injury year 2) comeback quarter season and 3) playing at 39 and 40. MJ's a like a 33-34ppg guy if you want to play that game and only count healthy prime seasons.
Shit youÂ’re right, and IÂ’m a huge MJ fan and historian and I forgot about those seasons that brought his averages down.

If youÂ’re going to do the same thing you got to cut off 1986 with limited games, on a total minutes restriction. You got to cut off 1995. And youÂ’re right, if you apply the same technique this Kobe stan just did for his averages, Mike would be legitimately like a 34 or 35 points per game scorer for his career.

1986, 1995, and especially 2002 after his knee injury, and 2003 off the bench for much of the season willingly as a 40 year old brought his numbers way down.

When I hear a Kobe Stan push the idea that heÂ’s basically as good as Mike, I cringe. Because they clearly never saw Jordan.

Is he the closest in terms of replicating the look, the intensity, the mannerisms, the skill set? 100%. That doesnÂ’t make him as good. And he definitely wasnÂ’t the original.

The other thing they refuse to understand is Kobe replicated the skill set aspect to MikeÂ’s game. But prime/peak Michael Jordan was like the best of prime/peek Dwyane Wade combined with the best of prime/peak Kobe Bryant.

As I explained in an earlier post how both Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant were able to handle the really great 2008 to 2010 Boston Celtics defense and their physicality.

Dwyane Wade had holes in his game, he didnÂ’t have the insane footwork, post game, consistent reliable jumper that Kobe or Michael had.

And Kobe Bryant doesnÂ’t have the insane slashing, attacking, destroying the defense from the inside - out game that Dwayne and Michael had.

Michael was like the best of both those dudes combined. Which is funny because heÂ’s obviously their favorite player. And they both replicated aspects to him as a whole.

[Phoenix]

Jordan's average was actually about to dip below 30ppg and he demanded Doug Collins change the offense and his minutes/touches so he could start gunning for the rest of the year to keep his #1 spot all time ahead of wilt. this is a fact. you can go look it up


Kobe couldnt do this in 97 or 98... and his last 3 years on 1 leg are like nothing Jordan's ever had to deal with

And that has what to do with my point? Remove 86, 95, 02 and 03. What's his average then if we gonna cherrypick?

[Phoenix]

its silly to include years he was forced to come off the bench for being brave enough to become the first guard to ever skip college



Oh shut the fukk up. Nobody forced him to come into the league at 18. Even if he had gone to college and come in around 99 at 21 years old, there's no guarantee he immediately starts dropping big numbers. He was always going to fall in line behind Shaq at that point.

[Phoenix]

Shit youÂ’re right, and IÂ’m a huge MJ fan and historian and I forgot about those seasons that brought his averages down.

If youÂ’re going to do the same thing you got to cut off 1986 with limited games, on a total minutes restriction. You got to cut off 1995. And youÂ’re right, if you apply the same technique this Kobe stan just did for his averages, Mike would be legitimately like a 34 or 35 points per game scorer for his career.

1986, 1995, and especially 2002 after his knee injury, and 2003 off the bench for much of the season willingly as a 40 year old brought his numbers way down.

When I hear a Kobe Stan push the idea that heÂ’s basically as good as Mike, I cringe. Because they clearly never saw Jordan.

Is he the closest in terms of replicating the look, the intensity, the mannerisms, the skill set? 100%. That doesnÂ’t make him as good. And he definitely wasnÂ’t the original.

The other thing they refuse to understand is Kobe replicated the skill set aspect to MikeÂ’s game. But prime/peak Michael Jordan was like the best of prime/peek Dwyane Wade combined with the best of prime/peak Kobe Bryant.

As I explained in an earlier post how both Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant were able to handle the really great 2008 to 2010 Boston Celtics defense and their physicality.

Dwyane Wade had holes in his game, he didnÂ’t have the insane footwork, post game, consistent reliable jumper that Kobe or Michael had.

And Kobe Bryant doesnÂ’t have the insane slashing, attacking, destroying the defense from the inside - out game that Dwayne and Michael had.

Michael was like the best of both those dudes combined. Which is funny because heÂ’s obviously their favorite player. And they both replicated aspects to him as a whole.

I was a bit off, taking out those 4 seasons he's at 31.7. But if the other poster is arguing Kobe is a 28ppg scorer cherrypicking his best/healthy seasons, he's still 3ppg short. And while you could argue that Kobe could have probably scored more in that 2000-2003 period if Shaq wasn't on the team, you could also argue that putting MJ in the triangle dropped his numbers. He very easily could have been dropping 33-35ppg every year from 86 to 93.

[WhiteKyrie]

Jordan's average was actually about to dip below 30ppg and he demanded Doug Collins change the offense and his minutes/touches so he could start gunning for the rest of the year to keep his #1 spot all time ahead of wilt. this is a fact. you can go look it up


Kobe couldnt do this in 97 or 98... and his last 3 years on 1 leg are like nothing Jordan's ever had to deal with

What the hell are you talking about? This never happened.

Michael willingly came off the bench almost the entire season. And he wasn’t gunning putting up huge scoring numbers either. And even if it was the case, what does it matter?

Listen kid, stick to crappy modern wrestling like AEW as your name implies

[Orange_Cassidy]

Oh shut the fukk up. Nobody forced him to come into the league at 18. Even if he had gone to college and come in around 99 at 21 years old, there's no guarantee he immediately starts dropping big numbers. He was always going to fall in line behind Shaq at that point.


you're right. nobody forced kobe to come out of college. but at the same time. nobody forced del harris to suffocate a player that had the skills to be a starter

theres 144 minutes available at both guard positions and the small forward slot each game

eddie jones played 36.4
van exel played 32.1
fox played 33.0

that leaves 42.5 minutes available for kobe. yet he plays 26.0 mpg during a year hes a f*cking allstar

explain this

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[WhiteKyrie]

I was a bit off, taking out those 4 seasons he's at 31.7. But if the other poster is arguing Kobe is a 28ppg scorer cherrypicking his best/healthy seasons, he's still 3ppg short. And while you could argue that Kobe could have probably scored more in that 2000-2003 period if Shaq wasn't on the team, you could also argue that putting MJ in the triangle dropped his numbers. He very easily could have been dropping 33-35ppg every year from 86 to 93.
Most players peak at 27 / 28. Where the athleticism, skill and experience all hit that apex point of synergy.

That was basically Michael Jordan’s in 1990 and 1991.

Now, put that player in 27 year old 2006 Kobe Bryant scenario.

At the absolute peak of your abilities. And he’s not playing in an equal opportunity triangle offense, developing his sidekick star, and trying to win a championship? You don’t think he’s going to put up some asinine scoring numbers? Even if it is just a win certain regular season games?

[Orange_Cassidy]

What the hell are you talking about? This never happened.

Michael willingly came off the bench almost the entire season. And he wasn’t gunning putting up huge scoring numbers either. And even if it was the case, what does it matter?

Listen kid, stick to crappy modern wrestling like AEW as your name implies

it happened

jordan came off the bench until he noticed he was about to fall behind wilt then he ordered to be inserted into the starting lineup and started jacking up shots to average just enough to stay ahead of wilt all time

[Phoenix]

you're right. nobody forced kobe to come out of college. but at the same time. nobody forced del harris to suffocate a player that had the skills to be a starter

theres 144 minutes available at both guard positions and the small forward slot each game

eddie jones played 36.4
van exel played 32.1
fox played 33.0

that leaves 42.5 minutes available for kobe. yet he plays 26.0 mpg during a year hes a f*cking allstar

explain this

At the same time nothing. That's all, he doesn't get the benefit of cutting off seasons that deflate his averages to make his career numbers look good for you. Nobody does, for any reason. Whatever you asked me to explain I didn't bother reading well enough to care about because the core point, and all I really need to say to you, I said above bolded for your convenience.

[Phoenix]

Not in the playoffs - Jordan averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals and 35/7/7 in the 90-93' Playoffs, or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs.

So Jordan increased his burden to win in the playoffs, regardless of the triangle - that's just what the Bulls needed because they had very weak scoring help for the entire 90's

Jordan's highest usage outside the 1st Round was the 93', 97' and 98' Playoffs - the Bulls often needed 30 shots a game from Jordan because his sidekick was shooting 45% true shooting and therefore couldn't handle more volume

I'm talking about his regular season numbers....obviously.

[3ba11]

you could also argue that putting MJ in the triangle dropped his numbers


Not in the playoffs - Jordan averaged 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals and 35/7/7 in the 90-93' Playoffs, or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs.. He was also scoring champ every time, so that didn't change.

So Jordan increased his burden to win in the playoffs, regardless of the triangle - that's just what the Bulls needed because they had very weak scoring help for the entire 90's

Jordan's highest usage outside the 1st Round was the 93', 97' and 98' Playoffs - the Bulls often needed 30 shots a game from Jordan because his sidekick was shooting 45-50% true shooting and therefore couldn't handle more volume.

[WhiteKyrie]

its silly to include years he was forced to come off the bench for being brave enough to become the first guard to ever skip college
You don’t think it’s brave to get fat and out of shape at an advanced age … not having played at all in three years. Coming back as an old man to duel with mega stars half his age (Kobe, McGrady, VC, Iverson, Allen) out of sheer homicidal competitiveness? Only as a result to see your career averages drop because of the fearless competitive bravery?

[Phoenix]

Most players peak at 27 / 28. Where the athleticism, skill and experience all hit that apex point of synergy.

That was basically Michael Jordan’s in 1990 and 1991.

Now, put that player in 27 year old 2006 Kobe Bryant scenario.

At the absolute peak of your abilities. And he’s not playing in an equal opportunity triangle offense, developing his sidekick star, and trying to win a championship? You don’t think he’s going to put up some asinine scoring numbers? Even if it is just a win certain regular season games?

Absolutely. In 88, I'd say he was still relatively raw in scoring skills( compared to 90-03 MJ) and dropped 35. 91 MJ would have murked the league if you dropped him in 2006.

[Orange_Cassidy]

At the same time nothing. That's all, he doesn't get the benefit of cutting off seasons that deflate his averages to make his career numbers look good for you. Nobody does, for any reason. Whatever you asked me to explain I didn't bother reading well enough to care about because the core point, and all I really need to say to you, I said above bolded for your convenience.

i never said you had to pretend 28ppg is kobes actual career average. i'm just saying with the same opportunities jordan and lebron had. thats his average. and without phil telling kobe to dial it back cause "they're losing shaq" ... he averages even more


i'm just saying dont sit there with a smug ass f*ggot look on your face trying to say kobes not the scorer mj was because of career averages. thats the point you were trying to make. and its f*cking dumb as shit like your sh*t eating grin you f*ckin f*ggot

kobe dropped more in 3 quarters against the western conference champions than jordan ever did through regulation. kobe has more 60 point games than jordan in just 2 years basically being able to f*cking shoot the f*cking ball without a coach or teammate crying like a f*cking little b*tch

[Phoenix]

i never said you had to pretend 28ppg is kobes actual career average. i'm just saying with the same opportunities jordan and lebron had. thats his average. and without phil telling kobe to dial it back cause "they're losing shaq" ... he averages even more


i'm just saying dont sit there with a smug ass f*ggot look on your face trying to say kobes not the scorer mj was because of career averages. thats the point you were trying to make. and its f*cking dumb as shit like your sh*t eating grin you f*ckin f*ggot

kobe dropped more in 3 quarters against the western conference champions than jordan ever did through regulation. kobe has more 60 point games than jordan in just 2 years basically being able to f*cking shoot the f*cking ball without a coach or teammate crying like a f*cking little b*tch

You said earlier his real PPG was 28ppg or whatever bullshit you're peddling so clearly that's the narrative you're going with.

Also, the bolded is :roll:. Perfect way to end my day with a cold one and a coma-inducing meltdown playing before my eyes. How's your daughter, Kenny?

[Orange_Cassidy]

You said earlier his real PPG was 28ppg or whatever bullshit you're peddling so clearly that's the narrative you're going with.

Also, the bolded is :roll:. Perfect way to end my day with a cold one and a coma-inducing meltdown playing before my eyes. How's your daughter, Kenny?

so you take pride when someone calls you a f*ggot. you crack open a beer to celebrate it instead of trying to seem smart where people just stop responding because they have nothing left to say. instead someone driving a legit logical point into your head laced with profanities is how you want a conversation to end

i see

yup. total f*cking c*ck sucking f*ggot in denial. here.. have another one on me

[Phoenix]

so you take pride when someone calls you a f*ggot. you crack open a beer to celebrate it instead of trying to seem smart where people just stop responding because they have nothing left to say. instead someone driving a legit logical point into your head laced with profanities is how you want a conversation to end

i see

yup. total f*cking c*ck sucking f*ggot in denial. here.. have another one on me

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/e6/dc/58e6dce15df25efeb4b54850ac1a1803.gif

MJ 32ppg 'real average'
Kobe 28 pgg 'real average'

:hammertime:

[Orange_Cassidy]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/e6/dc/58e6dce15df25efeb4b54850ac1a1803.gif

MJ 32ppg 'real average'
Kobe 28 pgg 'real average'

:hammertime:

well 28 is his real average with a coach and 2 teammates always giving him sh*t for shooting too much in all but 2 seasons

realistically kobes career average would be around 34/35ppg if he had a total green light from start to finish like MJ

and he probly has 50 and 60 point game totals that rival wilt

and 81 wouldn't be his top scoring game


kobe was a much more volatile scorer than jordan. only difference is jordans teams didn't make a fuss. they didn't have egos. only jordan did

obviously kobes ring count probly goes down to 2 or 3 but not everyone can be gifted with the perfect team in the perfect era where nobody was like MJ at the time. kobe had to go up against one every night

[3ba11]

i never said you had to pretend 28ppg is kobes actual career average. i'm just saying with the same opportunities jordan and lebron had. thats his average. and without phil telling kobe to dial it back cause "they're losing shaq" ... he averages even more


i'm just saying dont sit there with a smug ass f*ggot look on your face trying to say kobes not the scorer mj was because of career averages. thats the point you were trying to make. and its f*cking dumb as shit like your sh*t eating grin you f*ckin f*ggot

kobe dropped more in 3 quarters against the western conference champions than jordan ever did through regulation. kobe has more 60 point games than jordan in just 2 years basically being able to f*cking shoot the f*cking ball without a coach or teammate crying like a f*cking little b*tch


Agreed. Eye test is the best gauge of scoring ability and looking at Kobe's averages as 1st option makes sense too.

However, given that they use the same moves and played against a lot of the same players, I think efficiency is a good gauge for these 2 particular players, and one guy had a distinct advantage

[Phoenix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/e6/dc/58e6dce15df25efeb4b54850ac1a1803.gif

:sleeping

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlondYoungAzurevase-size_restricted.gif

[Orange_Cassidy]

Agreed. Eye test is the best gauge of scoring ability and looking at Kobe's averages as 1st option makes sense too.

However, given that they use the same moves and played against a lot of the same players, I think efficiency is a good gauge for these 2 particular players, and one guy had a distinct advantage

i don't think you can compare kobe to jordan in terms of efficiency because kobe was on his own planet in terms of shot selection. he knew he could make any shot from anywhere over anyone and it got there better of him at times. it took a hit on his fg% and 3pt%... they're only similar from 15 feet and in. outside that jordan rarely ever took a shot like this...

in fact.. find me one time jordan took a shot like any of these let alone made one without it being an end of the clock desperation attempt once a year type fluke


https://youtu.be/nvvVd74-OxY?t=186

[Phoenix]

kobe was on his own planet in terms of shot selection. he knew he could make any shot from anywhere over anyone and it got there better of him at times. it took a hit on his fg% and 3pt%...

Oh so he had a dumb B-ball IQ then? Hmmm....

[Orange_Cassidy]

Oh so he had a dumb B-ball IQ then? Hmmm....

thats what made kobe so great. he could take impossible shots and make enough of them to still be great.. maybe not the most efficient. but efficient enough to win...


kobe took shots that jordan would average 20%fg's on ... imagine michael jordan taking 30 footers falling out of bounds over 2 guys... you would think he lost his damn mind. and the ball wouldn't even come close. he looked uncomfortable shooting wide open threes. imagine him doing a kobe shot. its even fathomable

[Phoenix]

thats what made kobe so great. he could take impossible shots and make enough of them to still be great.. maybe not the most efficient. but efficient enough to win...


kobe took shots that jordan would average 20%fg's on ... imagine michael jordan taking 30 footers falling out of bounds over 2 guys... you would think he lost his damn mind. and the ball wouldn't even come close. he looked uncomfortable shooting wide open threes. imagine him doing a kobe shot. its even fathomable

So dumb b-ball IQ, taking your comments to their logical conclusion. Thanks for confirming.

[3ba11]

i don't think you can compare kobe to jordan in terms of efficiency because kobe was on his own planet in terms of shot selection. he knew he could make any shot from anywhere over anyone and it got there better of him at times. it took a hit on his fg% and 3pt%... they're only similar from 15 feet and in. outside that jordan rarely ever took a shot like this...

in fact.. find me one time jordan took a shot like any of these let alone made one without it being an end of the clock desperation attempt once a year type fluke


https://youtu.be/nvvVd74-OxY?t=186


Jordan always shot well on threes when he took more than bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts), and he had plenty of tough threes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5kZTDZIdU&t=09m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A&t=398s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYxvxn4hZH4&t=06m02s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A&t03m05s

[Orange_Cassidy]

So dumb b-ball IQ, taking your comments to their logical conclusion. Thanks for confirming.

you act like kobe did these impossible shot selections every time. he could get any shot from anywhere. he could just as easily only taken jordan type mid range shots and only shot his 1 open three every other game. but he wanted to have those 3 or 4 times a game to demoralize an opponent. so he would have these small spirts when the game was getting tight where he would break another teams confidence and silence their crowd with one of those impossible shots. he did them because he could. not because he was low IQ or incapable of a better look. it was just his way of whipping it out and smacking people in the face with it.

you're obviously a total hater in denial or just too young and stupid to know what the f*ck you're even discussing

you obviously didn't watch the games

[Phoenix]

you act like kobe did these impossible shot selections every time. he could get any shot from anywhere. he could just as easily only taken jordan type mid range shots and only shot his 1 open three every other game. but he wanted to have those 3 or 4 times a game to demoralize an opponent. so he would have these small spirts when the game was getting tight where he would break another teams confidence and silence their crowd with one of those impossible shots. he did them because he could. not because he was low IQ or incapable of a better look. it was just his way of whipping it out and smacking people in the face with it.

you're obviously a total hater in denial or just too young and stupid to know what the f*ck you're even discussing

you obviously didn't watch the games

Dumb basketball IQ per the newest Kenny variant. How's your daughter?

[WhiteKyrie]

Also why the Suns in 93 tried KJ on MJ. You either live with his jumpshot and hope hes having an off day,or live with putting a bigger guard on him like Thunder Dan.....and we know what happened there. Simpletons here think height and athleticism= great defense but lateral quickness, foot speed, anticipation and knowing how to play the angles are the best attributes for a defender. Gary Payton wasnt the most athletic of PGs but he know how to get into your shooting space and stay in front of you playing the angles.
Bingo.

You can tell who has played and who hasn’t played based on this ideology.

Kirk Hinrich was a 6’4 “un athletic” white combo guard. And he gave prime / peak D-Wade fits. In the playoffs no less.

Did it to Kobe too. Saw it in person. Held Kobe to less than 20 in 2007 season which was right around his peak.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Jordan always shot well on threes when he took more than bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts), and he had plenty of tough threes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z5kZTDZIdU&t=09m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A&t=398s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYxvxn4hZH4&t=06m02s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoVMIZWS_-A&t03m05s

those face up threes without a dribble are literally 80% of kobes looks lol. and they're almost never with a toe on the line. usually a foot or 2 behind the line.. the other 20% were 3-4 feet farther back...


i don't think i remember an open kobe three even taking place since like 2002 when they got rid of illegal defense lol... i'm sure they happened. but i can't think of any... the people defending him never gave him any space cause they knew a guy could slide over... there was no isolation ball for most of kobes career

[Manny98]

No

[Orange_Cassidy]

Dumb basketball IQ per the newest Kenny variant. How's your daughter?

do you even remember the 2010 wcf vs the suns. go watch game 6 and see the air empty out of the building when kobe hit those impossible pull ups like 3 or 4 straight times. like he didn't give a f*ck if the defender was inside his jersey with him lol... those shots kill teams momentum...


or look up that huge pull up deep three 4 point play in the gold medal game that took spains soul

kobe isn't low IQ. he knew momentum swinging shots have a moment and time. you obviously don't

[Phoenix]

do you even remember the 2010 wcf vs the suns. go watch game 6 and see the air empty out of the building when kobe hit those impossible pull ups like 3 or 4 straight times. like he didn't give a f*ck if the defender was inside his jersey with him lol... those shots kill teams momentum...


or look up that huge pull up deep three 4 point play in the gold medal game that took spains soul

kobe isn't low IQ. he knew momentum swinging shots have a moment and time. you obviously don't


kobe was on his own planet in terms of shot selection. he knew he could make any shot from anywhere over anyone and it got there better of him at times. it took a hit on his fg% and 3pt%...

Threadcliffs: dumb IQ. Weird admission coming from Kenny.

Daughter?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Threadcliffs: dumb IQ. Weird admission coming from Kenny.

Daughter?

see the thing is.. kobe didn't have the luxury of having ray allens, chris boshes, dwyane wades, kyrie irvings, kevin loves, anthony davis's and a bunch of ex allstars turned ring chasing role players to hit shots for him whenever he couldn't find a wide open high IQ shot for himself

you see.. instead kobe had to kick it out to guys like devean george, luke walton, smush parker, jordan farmar, shannon brown etc... fisher was good in the clutch but just average the rest of the game. same with horry. theyre just ok... kobe couldn't toss it to shaq either for a bail out because he needed his own shot clock dedicated to his back downs... gasol was ok from deep but he was never standing around the 3pt line waiting for a pass. he was another guy posting up and needing his own shot clock or play run for him to score.

so when kobe goes for these impossible shots more often than not believe it or not its actually a better look than tossing it to a total scrub for a wide open one

thats just one more thing to factor in. but again. i don't expect you to understand since you never watched and probly have no idea who those guys are

[Phoenix]

see the thing is.. kobe didn't have the luxury of having ray allens, chris boshes, dwyane wades, kyrie irvings, kevin loves, anthony davis's and a bunch of ex allstars turned ring chasing role players to hit shots for him whenever he couldn't find a wide open high IQ shot for himself

you see.. instead kobe had to kick it out to guys like devean george, luke walton, smush parker, jordan farmar, shannon brown etc... fisher was good in the clutch but just average the rest of the game. same with horry. theyre just ok... kobe couldn't toss it to shaq either for a bail out because he needed his own shot clock dedicated to his back downs... gasol was ok from deep but he was never standing around the 3pt line waiting for a pass. he was another guy posting up and needing his own shot clock or play run for him to score.

so when kobe goes for these impossible shots more often than not believe it or not its actually a better look than tossing it to a total scrub for a wide open one

thats just one more thing to factor in. but again. i don't expect you to understand since you never watched and probly have no idea who those guys are

Shifting to Lebron teammates in a MJ/Kobe discussion. Unhinged.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/ec20faee8057e16f9a53bb4be1a3f5d5/tenor.gif?itemid=7885135

[SouBeachTalents]

Shifting to Lebron teammates in a MJ/Kobe discussion. Unhinged.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/ec20faee8057e16f9a53bb4be1a3f5d5/tenor.gif?itemid=7885135
Kenneth is the 3ball of Kobe stans. He legitimately believes his 2000 ring is > LeBron's 2016

[Phoenix]

Kenneth is the 3ball of Kobe stans. He legitimately believes his 2000 ring is > LeBron's 2016

He also believes that 'best bad shotmaker ever' isn't the most backhanded of compliments. Odd fellow, that is.....

[Orange_Cassidy]

Kenneth is the 3ball of Kobe stans. He legitimately believes his 2000 ring is > LeBron's 2016

why wouldn't a real ring be worth more than a fake one

kobe saved game 4 and had a good game 1 and 6. the series was legit. no suspensions. no teammate bailed out kobe. kobe bailed out shaq

[Orange_Cassidy]

He also believes that 'best bad shotmaker ever' isn't the most backhanded of compliments. Odd fellow, that is.....

you act like kobe only took impossible shots or "bad shots" as you call them


he would take like 3 or 4 a game just for fun and to demoralize opponents... the other 17-18 shots were great looks

why knock a guy for having the talent to do anything

jordan didn't have to switch hands for that layup vs the lakers in the finals... he did it because he knew it would demoralize them and be in highlights 30 years later.


you just don't get it because your idol is incapable of doing the things kobe did. thats all there is to it. he was on another planet in terms of skill and nobody will ever come close ever again.

[Phoenix]

:roll::roll:

'bailed out averaging 38/17'

[SouBeachTalents]

why wouldn't a real ring be worth more than a fake one

kobe saved game 4 and had a good game 1 and 6. the series was legit. no suspensions. no teammate bailed out kobe. kobe bailed out shaq
He sure did

https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

And on what planet are 14 points and 26 points on 8/27 "good games" for a supposed top 10 GOAT :lol

[Phoenix]

you act like kobe only took impossible shots or "bad shots" as you call them


he would take like 3 or 4 a game just for fun and to demoralize opponents... the other 17-18 shots were great looks

why knock a guy for having the talent to do anything

jordan didn't have to switch hands for that layup vs the lakers in the finals... he did it because he knew it would demoralize them and be in highlights 30 years later.


you just don't get it because your idol is incapable of doing the things kobe did. thats all there is to it. he was on another planet in terms of skill and nobody will ever come close ever again.

89 Pippen.

[Orange_Cassidy]

:roll::roll:

'bailed out averaging 38/17'

did kobe bail out shaq in game 4. yes or no

[Phoenix]

Kenny, this will absolutely crush you. I haven't read the body of like you last 6 posts.

:yaohappy:

[Orange_Cassidy]

He sure did

https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

And on what planet are 14 points and 26 points on 8/27 "good games" for a supposed top 10 GOAT :lol

without kobe bailing shaq out in game 4 the pacers probly win the series. they go up 3-2 since they won game 5... after that who knows. shaqs never good when faced with real pressure. see game 7 just 1 serious prior

[Orange_Cassidy]

Kenny, this will absolutely crush you. I haven't read the body of like you last 6 posts.

:yaohappy:

so i won then. thanks for the admission


so you take pride when someone calls you a f*ggot. you crack open a beer to celebrate it instead of trying to seem smart where people just stop reading and responding because they have nothing left to say.


i didn't think you would take this post so seriously and follow through with it but ok

[SouBeachTalents]

without kobe bailing shaq out in game 4 the pacers probly win the series. they go up 3-2 since they won game 5... after that who knows. shaqs never good when faced with real pressure. see game 7 just 1 serious prior
Bruh, you seen some of Kobe's Game 7's :oldlol: Or his performances when facing elimination, which is about the most pressure a player can face. Worst Game 7/elimination game player of the top 10-12 by far, and has his teammates hit all the big shots

[Phoenix]

did kobe bail out shaq in game 4. yes or no

If the Lakers lose that game, the series is 2-2 with LA having HCA advantage. Getting bailed out would infer that Kobe staved off the Lakers going down in the series and therefore vulnerable, which wasn't the case. And so outside of game 4( Shaq was still leading scorer and better plus/minus BTW)

Game 1: Lakers win

Shaq: 43/19/4
Kobe: 14/5/3

Game 2: Lakers win

Shaq: 40/24/4
Kobe: 2/4/1( injured, irrelevant to game outcome)

Game 6: Lakers win

Shaq: 41/12/1
Kobe: 26/10/4

[SouBeachTalents]

If the Lakers lose that game, the series is 2-2 with LA having HCA advantage. Getting bailed out would infer that Kobe staved off the Lakers going down in the series and therefore vulnerable, which wasn't the case. And so outside of game 4( Shaq was still leading scorer and better plus/minus BTW)

Game 1: Lakers win

Shaq: 43/19/4
Kobe: 14/5/3

Game 2: Lakers win

Shaq: 40/24/4
Kobe: 2/4/1( injured, irrelevant to game outcome)

Game 6: Lakers win

Shaq: 41/12/1
Kobe: 26/10/4
Don't forget his masterclass 8 point on 4/20 performance in Game 5, wasting Shaq's 35/11 that would've clinched the title

[Phoenix]

so i won then. thanks for the admission




Imagine so useless a life that you claim INTERNET VICTORY!!!!!! over someone who hasn't give the shit you post the respect of a decent reply in 2 pages :oldlol:. Your daughter ok, fluffy?

[FKAri]

Imagine so useless a life that you claim INTERNET VICTORY!!!!!! over someone who hasn't give the shit you post the respect of a decent reply in 2 pages :oldlol:. Your daughter ok, fluffy?

I think he loves Kobe more than his daughter. And not even Kobe. He loves Kobe's legacy more than Kobe since he cheered his death because it could give him a "legacy boost".

[Phoenix]

Don't forget his masterclass 8 point on 4/20 performance in Game 5, wasting Shaq's 35/11 that would've clinched the title

:cheers:

Kenny on suicide watch.

[Phoenix]

I think he loves Kobe more than his daughter. And not even Kobe. He loves Kobe's legacy more than Kobe since he cheered his death because it could give him a "legacy boost".

Oh shit, I forgot about that one. Kenny's about to call you a F*****g f****t while posting dic pics and get banned again.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Bruh, you seen some of Kobe's Game 7's :oldlol: Or his performances when facing elimination, which is about the most pressure a player can face. Worst Game 7/elimination game player of the top 10-12 by far, and has his teammates hit all the big shots

i dunno i remember kobe saving shaq vs the blazers in game 7

coming up big vs sacramento while playing with food poisoning in 2002 and winning

dominating the last 13 minutes of game 7 vs boston in 2010 and winning ( regardless of his early struggles )

playing team ball vs the suns in 2006 cause his 50 point outburst didn't work. still had a good line whether he went out chucking or not so people could blame him one way or another

they blew out houston in 2009 game 7 with kobe only playing 30 minutes in a win.. kobe didn't have to do much cause the game was over already. ron artest also shot poorly that game and there was beef that series. i think kobe just wanted it over with

and vs denver in 2012 kobe had like 10 assists. he was a playmaker all game cause of double teams... i remember him hooking up bynum a ton



i mean. did he even have one bad shooting night and a loss in a game 7? i don't get it. most of the time both teams struggled and the tougher guy prevailed

[Phoenix]

i dunno i remember kobe saving shaq vs the blazers in game 7

coming up big vs sacramento while playing with food poisoning in 2002 and winning

dominating the last 13 minutes of game 7 vs boston in 2010 and winning ( regardless of his early struggles )

playing team ball vs the suns in 2006 cause his 50 point outburst didn't work. still had a good line whether he went out chucking or not so people could blame him one way or another

they blew out houston in 2009 game 7 with kobe only playing 30 minutes in a win.. kobe didn't have to do much cause the game was over already. ron artest also shot poorly that game and there was beef that series. i think kobe just wanted it over with

and vs denver in 2012 kobe had like 10 assists. he was a playmaker all game cause of double teams... i remember him hooking up bynum a ton

Vorp.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Vorp.

context really hurts people who never watched basketball.. this is why you can't just read a box score. you have to know each situation and why things happened the way they did.

[Phoenix]

context really hurts people who never watched basketball.. this is why you can't just read a box score. you have to know each situation and why things happened the way they did.

The Lakers won game 2 with Shaq dropping 40 and Kobe 2. If there's a context that favors Kobe there, I'm listening.

[MadDog]

you act like kobe only took impossible shots or "bad shots" as you call them


he would take like 3 or 4 a game just for fun and to demoralize opponents... the other 17-18 shots were great looks

why knock a guy for having the talent to do anything

jordan didn't have to switch hands for that layup vs the lakers in the finals... he did it because he knew it would demoralize them and be in highlights 30 years later.


you just don't get it because your idol is incapable of doing the things kobe did. thats all there is to it. he was on another planet in terms of skill and nobody will ever come close ever again.

You keep trying to sneak Kobe in a convo he doesn't belong in. Kobe was never in that discussion nor ever will be. Get over it. MJ has better numbers, advanced numbers, more dominance, and was better in the playoffs and finals. Only thing you could argue are Kobe's skills. And while they're ALL TIME, those skills don't close the gap Jordan had everywhere else.

Besides, Jordan was incredibly skilled too. Better midrange, post-player, off-hand, fadeaway, defender and a more willing (therefor better) passer. In the playoffs, Jordan also shot the three better than Kobe did. Objectively the ONLY skill you could say Kobe was better at were handles. Maybe even a better long range jumpshooter. But that's also debatable. Kobe's game was legendary, and he is easily top 10 - but he simply doesn't compare to Jordan.

[Manny98]

The Lakers won game 2 with Shaq dropping 40 and Kobe 2. If there's a context that favors Kobe there, I'm listening.
:lol

[Orange_Cassidy]

The Lakers won game 2 with Shaq dropping 40 and Kobe 2. If there's a context that favors Kobe there, I'm listening.

the context is kobe saved game 4 with shaq fouled out. and averaged 19.0ppg minus the 2 point injury ruining his average. he held reggie miller to 1 for 16 shooting in game 1. then dropped 26/10/4/1/2 in the clincher while putting the game away with 2 ft's after getting fouled on a shot when it was still a 1 possession game.

considering that and indy's game 5 victory the pacers probly win it in 6 without kobe ever returning from that ankle injury

[Orange_Cassidy]

You keep trying to sneak Kobe in a convo he doesn't belong in. Kobe was never in that discussion nor ever will be. Get over it. MJ has better numbers, advanced numbers, more dominance, and was better in the playoffs and finals. Only thing you could argue are Kobe's skills. And while they're ALL TIME, those skills don't close the gap Jordan had everywhere else.

Besides, Jordan was incredibly skilled too. Better midrange, post-player, off-hand, fadeaway, defender and a more willing (therefor better) passer. In the playoffs, Jordan also shot the three better than Kobe did. Objectively the ONLY skill you could say Kobe was better at were handles. Maybe even a better long range jumpshooter. But that's also debatable. Kobe's game was legendary, and he is easily top 10 - but he simply doesn't compare to Jordan.

best career goes to jordan. ok. i've said it a million times on here

most skilled? sorry.. thats kobe.. or bird. maybe durant? but i say kobe. deal with it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc49qu_p0Ec


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvJiYEJpSZk

[Phoenix]

the context is kobe saved game 4 with shaq fouled out. and averaged 19.0ppg minus the 2 point injury ruining his average. he held reggie miller to 1 for 16 shooting in game 1. then dropped 26/10/4/1/2 in the clincher while putting the game away with 2 ft's after getting fouled on a shot when it was still a 1 possession game.

considering that and indy's game 5 victory the pacers probly win it in 6 without kobe ever returning from that ankle injury

So you respond to a request about the context for game 2...........by going on about game 4. :roll:

Shaq 40, Kobe 2. Lakers win game 2. And was decisively the best player in 3 of the Laker victories( and really was the best player in game 4, him fouling out doesn't cancel 36 and 21 positioning Kobe to play hero in the end).

Context. You can do it, fluffy.

[MadDog]

best career goes to jordan. ok. i've said it a million times on here

most skilled? sorry.. thats kobe.. or bird. maybe durant? but i say kobe. deal with it

Throw Chris Paul in there, too. Who cares? :oldlol: Jordan's skills and overall game translated into more dominance. Therefor, he was the better player. The championships and "greater career" are a byproduct of that.

[Orange_Cassidy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNMgIUQxYiw

[Phoenix]

Jesus H. Christ. I completely forgot. In this mythical game 4 2000 finals where Kobe 'bailed out Shaq', Reggie scored 35. So Kobe's man outscores him by 7, Shaq outscores Smits by 12 and out-rebounds him by 18.....but we're pretending that Shaq's pre 6th foul dominance wasn't what made this game close to begin with. How cute.

[Orange_Cassidy]

So you respond to a request about the context for game 2...........by going on about game 4. :roll:

Shaq 40, Kobe 2. Lakers win game 2. And was decisively the best player in 3 of the Laker victories( and really was the best player in game 4, him fouling out doesn't cancel 36 and 21 positioning Kobe to play hero in the end).

Context. You can do it, fluffy.

game 2 was in LA dummy.

and ron harper dropped 21 on 67% shooting. doubt that happens again lol


but carry on with your revisionist attempt at discrediting what kobe did in the pivotal games

[Orange_Cassidy]

Jesus H. Christ. I completely forgot. In this mythical game 4 2000 finals where Kobe 'bailed out Shaq', Reggie scored 35. So Kobe's man outscores him by 7, Shaq outscores Smits by 12 and out-rebounds him by 18.....but we're pretending that Shaq's pre 6th foul dominance wasn't what made this game close to begin with. How cute.

do you even know what "bail out" means lol

because it doesn't mean carry from start to finish. it means kobe took a guaranteed L and turned it into a W after shaq fouled out

[Phoenix]

best career goes to jordan. ok. i've said it a million times on here

most skilled? sorry.. thats kobe.. or bird. maybe durant? but i say kobe. deal with it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw



So, a quote from Phil while coaching Kobe( where he's clearing his throat at the discomfort).

Or..... a 2014 interview when he's years past coaching either and doesn't have to protect anyone's ego:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlLOc_xRb_c

No throat-clearing for that one, bucko. Kobe being more skilled is an argument. Kobe being a better, more dominant player in terms of on-court results? Or who wins a matchup? And maybe it's on the basis of physical gifts being the bigger difference than any difference or advantages one way or the other in skill-set. But, the judge has spoken.

[Phoenix]

game 2 was in LA dummy.

and ron harper dropped 21 on 67% shooting. doubt that happens again lol




Oh so the Lakers replaced Kobe's production with a 36 year old Ron Harper and won? Shit, maybe the Lakers had a better chance in game 5 if Kobe didn't play in that one( 8 points, 4/20 :roll:).

[Hey Yo]

do you even know what "bail out" means lol

because it doesn't mean carry from start to finish. it means kobe took a guaranteed L and turned it into a W after shaq fouled out

Shaq fouled out with a little over 2mins left in OT. He already did his damage.

Then in games 5 and 6... Kobe combined to shoot 12-47.

[Phoenix]

do you even know what "bail out" means lol

because it doesn't mean carry from start to finish. it means kobe took a guaranteed L and turned it into a W after shaq fouled out

And prevented the series from going 2-2 with the Lakers having HCA. If Kobe bailed them out in game 4, did he royally fukk them over in game 5?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Oh so the Lakers replaced Kobe's production with a 36 year old Ron Harper and won? Shit, maybe the Lakers had a better chance in game 5 if Kobe didn't play in that one( 8 points, 4/20 :roll:).

so you think 36 year old ron harper is capable of averaging 20+ for an entire series and it wasn't just a fluke

[Phoenix]

In this 'Kobe bailed out Shaq in game 4' narrative, the Lakers were up 112-109 when Shaq fouled out. Kobe did his thing and maintained the minor lead that Shaq left him with. Is our resident deranged pro-Kobe psychopath acting like the Lakers don't lose this game in regulation if Shaq isn't dropping 36/21?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Shaq fouled out with a little over 2mins left in OT. He already did his damage.

Then in games 5 and 6... Kobe combined to shoot 12-47.

2:33.0 Loose ball foul by S. O'Neal 112-109
2:33.0 J. Salley enters the game for S. O'Neal 112-109


ok so the lakers are up 112-109

lets see how it goes minus kobes scoring

2:21.0 112-111 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 6 ft

1:58.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 22 ft +2 still 112-111

1:34.0 112-113 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 5 ft

uh oh pacers take the lead

1:20.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 23 ft +2 still 112-113
1:05.0 112-113 Shooting foul by J. Salley
1:05.0 112-114 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 1 of 2
1:05.0 112-115 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 2 of 2


0:47.0 G. Rice misses 2-pt jump shot from 6 ft 112-115
0:46.0 Offensive rebound by B. Shaw 112-115
0:46.0 B. Shaw makes 2-pt tip-in from 2 ft +2 114-115
0:36.0 114-115 A. Croshere misses 2-pt layup from 2 ft (block by K. Bryant)
0:36.0 114-115 Offensive rebound by Team
0:28.0 114-115 Personal foul by G. Rice
0:28.0 114-116 +1 R. Smits makes free throw 1 of 2
0:28.0 114-116 D. McKey enters the game for A. Croshere
0:28.0 114-117 +1 R. Smits makes free throw 2 of 2
0:07.0 B. Shaw misses 2-pt jump shot from 4 ft 114-117
0:05.0 Offensive rebound by K. Bryant 118-117
0:05.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt tip-in from 1 ft +2 still 114-117

uh oh looking bad for LA


0:05.0 114-117 Indiana full timeout
0:05.0 114-117 A. Croshere enters the game for D. McKey
0:05.0 114-117 S. Perkins enters the game for R. Smits
0:05.0 R. Fox enters the game for J. Salley 114-117
0:05.0 114-117 Away from play foul by R. Fox
0:05.0 114-118 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 1 of 1
0:05.0 114-118 Indiana full timeout
0:05.0 114-118 R. Smits enters the game for S. Perkins
0:00.0 114-118 R. Miller misses 3-pt jump shot from 25 ft
0:00.0 Defensive rebound by Team 114-118


pacers win

woops



but shaq already did all the damage needed

:lol

[Phoenix]

so you think 36 year old ron harper is capable of averaging 20+ for an entire series and it wasn't just a fluke

The Lakers won game one with Shaq going for 43 and Kobe 14. You're frothing at the mouth thinking that Kobe was required to produce big for the Lakers to win the series. 2 wins he was irrelevant as as other teammates stepped up in different games, and even in the game 4 you keep going on about, Kobe got outscored by Reggie. if Shaq doesn't majorly outproduce his counterpart( since Kobe failed to do so with his) the Pacers very likely win that game by double digits. You needed to read the boxscore to drop something like Ron Harper going for 21, so you should have also seen Shaq dropping 36 and 21. And to close the series, Shaq outscores Kobe by 15. You're done.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Lakers won game one with Shaq going for 43 and Kobe 14. You're frothing at the mouth thinking that Kobe was required to produce big for the Lakers to win the series. 2 wins he was irrelevant as as other teammates stepped up in different games, and even in the game 4 you keep going on about, Kobe got outscored by Reggie. if Shaq doesn't majorly outproduce his counterpart( since Kobe failed to do so with his) the Pacers very likely win that game by double digits. You needed to read the boxscore to drop something like Ron Harper going for 21, so you should have also seen Shaq dropping 36 and 21. And to close the series, Shaq outscores Kobe by 15. You're done.
Wrong. Educate yourself for once


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHF6oU4GVfY

[Phoenix]

2:33.0 Loose ball foul by S. O'Neal 112-109
2:33.0 J. Salley enters the game for S. O'Neal 112-109


ok so the lakers are up 112-109

lets see how it goes minus kobes scoring

2:21.0 112-111 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 6 ft

1:58.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 22 ft +2 still 112-111

1:34.0 112-113 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 5 ft

uh oh pacers take the lead

1:20.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 23 ft +2 still 112-113
1:05.0 112-113 Shooting foul by J. Salley
1:05.0 112-114 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 1 of 2
1:05.0 112-115 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 2 of 2


0:47.0 G. Rice misses 2-pt jump shot from 6 ft 112-115
0:46.0 Offensive rebound by B. Shaw 112-115
0:46.0 B. Shaw makes 2-pt tip-in from 2 ft +2 114-115
0:36.0 114-115 A. Croshere misses 2-pt layup from 2 ft (block by K. Bryant)
0:36.0 114-115 Offensive rebound by Team
0:28.0 114-115 Personal foul by G. Rice
0:28.0 114-116 +1 R. Smits makes free throw 1 of 2
0:28.0 114-116 D. McKey enters the game for A. Croshere
0:28.0 114-117 +1 R. Smits makes free throw 2 of 2
0:07.0 B. Shaw misses 2-pt jump shot from 4 ft 114-117
0:05.0 Offensive rebound by K. Bryant 118-117
0:05.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt tip-in from 1 ft +2 still 114-117

uh oh looking bad for LA


0:05.0 114-117 Indiana full timeout
0:05.0 114-117 A. Croshere enters the game for D. McKey
0:05.0 114-117 S. Perkins enters the game for R. Smits
0:05.0 R. Fox enters the game for J. Salley 114-117
0:05.0 114-117 Away from play foul by R. Fox
0:05.0 114-118 +1 R. Miller makes free throw 1 of 1
0:05.0 114-118 Indiana full timeout
0:05.0 114-118 R. Smits enters the game for S. Perkins
0:00.0 114-118 R. Miller misses 3-pt jump shot from 25 ft
0:00.0 Defensive rebound by Team 114-118


pacers win

woops



but shaq already did all the damage needed

:lol

Kobe did all the damage letting Reggie go off for 35. Good thing Shaq was there to counter with 36 given that Smits nearly matched Kobe's production with 24. Someone had to win their matchup out of the two pivotal head to heads.

[Orange_Cassidy]

In this 'Kobe bailed out Shaq in game 4' narrative, the Lakers were up 112-109 when Shaq fouled out. Kobe did his thing and maintained the minor lead that Shaq left him with. Is our resident deranged pro-Kobe psychopath acting like the Lakers don't lose this game in regulation if Shaq isn't dropping 36/21?

yeah eh. never thought about that. shaq gave them the lead!

0:00.0 S. O'Neal misses 2-pt jump shot from 6 ft 104-104
0:00.0 104-104 Defensive rebound by D. McKey
0:00.0 End of 4th quarter
1st OT
Time LA Lakers Score Indiana
5:00.0 Start of 1st overtime
5:00.0 Jump ball: R. Smits vs. S. O'Neal (R. Harper gains possession)
4:46.0 R. Horry makes 2-pt jump shot from 18 ft +2 106-104
4:28.0 106-104 Turnover by R. Smits (lost ball; steal by S. O'Neal)
4:15.0 S. O'Neal misses 2-pt jump shot from 4 ft 106-104
4:13.0 Offensive rebound by R. Horry 106-104
4:12.0 R. Horry makes 2-pt dunk from 1 ft +2 108-104
4:01.0 108-104 Personal foul by R. Harper
3:52.0 108-106 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 3 ft (assist by R. Miller)
3:34.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 8 ft +2 110-106


but not really

[Orange_Cassidy]

Kobe did all the damage letting Reggie go off for 35. Good thing Shaq was there to counter with 36 given that Smits nearly matched Kobe's production with 24. Someone had to win their matchup out of the two pivotal head to heads.

another great point. but too bad shaq missed the game winner forcing it to go to overtime where he would foul out and need kobe to bail him out though

[Orange_Cassidy]

Wrong. Educate yourself for once


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHF6oU4GVfY

the funny thing about that first clip is shaq actually did do offensive interference lol

[Phoenix]

yeah eh. never thought about that. shaq gave them the lead!

0:00.0 S. O'Neal misses 2-pt jump shot from 6 ft 104-104
0:00.0 104-104 Defensive rebound by D. McKey
0:00.0 End of 4th quarter
1st OT
Time LA Lakers Score Indiana
5:00.0 Start of 1st overtime
5:00.0 Jump ball: R. Smits vs. S. O'Neal (R. Harper gains possession)
4:46.0 R. Horry makes 2-pt jump shot from 18 ft +2 106-104
4:28.0 106-104 Turnover by R. Smits (lost ball; steal by S. O'Neal)
4:15.0 S. O'Neal misses 2-pt jump shot from 4 ft 106-104
4:13.0 Offensive rebound by R. Horry 106-104
4:12.0 R. Horry makes 2-pt dunk from 1 ft +2 108-104
4:01.0 108-104 Personal foul by R. Harper
3:52.0 108-106 +2 R. Smits makes 2-pt hook shot from 3 ft (assist by R. Miller)
3:34.0 K. Bryant makes 2-pt jump shot from 8 ft +2 110-106


but not really

Silly rabbit. Obviously over the entirety of the game if Shaq doesn't produce as he did, the game isn't close since Kobe was busy getting outscored by a past prime Reggie. Cute argument on your end though.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Silly rabbit. Obviously over the entirety of the game if Shaq doesn't produce as he did, the game isn't close since Kobe was busy getting outscored by a past prime Reggie. Cute argument on your end though.

silly f*ggot. i've already stated shaqs great till the pressures on. he folds in every big moment and series vs teams and players on his level. kobes carried him vs the best of the best competition. always has. then wade had to do it for him in 06 as well


check both their stats vs sanantonio since 1999. you'l laugh

[Phoenix]

silly f*ggot. i've already stated shaqs great till the pressures on. he folds in every big moment and series vs teams and players on his level. kobes carried him vs the best of the best competition. always has. then wade had to do it for him in 06 as well


check both their stats vs sanantonio since 1999. you'l laugh

Pressure was on in game 5. Kobe went 4/20 for 8 points. :applause:

[Phoenix]

another great point. but too bad shaq missed the game winner forcing it to go to overtime where he would foul out and need kobe to bail him out though

Too bad Kobe couldn't outscore his own man. Wouldn't have needed late game heroics if 35 year old Reggie wasn't dropping 35 on a prime defensive Kobe.

[Phoenix]

So, threadcliffs...

If the Lakers lose that game, the series is 2-2 with LA having HCA advantage. Getting bailed out would infer that Kobe staved off the Lakers going down in the series and therefore vulnerable, which wasn't the case. And so outside of game 4( Shaq was still leading scorer and better plus/minus BTW)

Game 1: Lakers win

Shaq: 43/19/4
Kobe: 14/5/3

Game 2: Lakers win

Shaq: 40/24/4
Kobe: 2/4/1( injured, irrelevant to game outcome)

Game 6: Lakers win

Shaq: 41/12/1
Kobe: 26/10/4

Bonus content: game 5, Kobe 8 points, 4/20. What a bail job.

















































































































































89 Pippen.

[Phoenix]

So, a quote from Phil while coaching Kobe( where he's clearing his throat at the discomfort).

Or..... a 2014 interview when he's years past coaching either and doesn't have to protect anyone's ego:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlLOc_xRb_c

No throat-clearing for that one, bucko. Kobe being more skilled is an argument. Kobe being a better, more dominant player in terms of on-court results? Or who wins a matchup? And maybe it's on the basis of physical gifts being the bigger difference than any difference or advantages one way or the other in skill-set. But, the judge has spoken.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3ohc172JJbbmUfVxhS/giphy.gif

[Orange_Cassidy]

So, threadcliffs...

If the Lakers lose that game, the series is 2-2 with LA having HCA advantage. Getting bailed out would infer that Kobe staved off the Lakers going down in the series and therefore vulnerable, which wasn't the case. And so outside of game 4( Shaq was still leading scorer and better plus/minus BTW)

Game 1: Lakers win

Shaq: 43/19/4
Kobe: 14/5/3

Game 2: Lakers win

Shaq: 40/24/4
Kobe: 2/4/1( injured, irrelevant to game outcome)

Game 6: Lakers win

Shaq: 41/12/1
Kobe: 26/10/4

Bonus content: game 5, Kobe 8 points, 4/20. What a bail job.

















































































































































89 Pippen.

so basically what your saying is kobe was huge in 3 out of 4 victories


game 1 shutting down Reggie 1 for 16

saving shaq in game 4

then a great all around game and the clinching free throws in game 6


shaq was better obviously but that wasn't even really the nba finals. kobe won them the title vs Portland in game 7.. then saved shaq from choking away an easy title vs indy

[Phoenix]

so basically what your saying is kobe was huge in 3 out of 4 victories


game 1 shutting down Reggie 1 for 16

saving shaq in game 4

then a great all around game and the clinching free throws in game 6


shaq was better obviously but that wasn't even really the nba finals. kobe won them the title vs Portland in game 7.. then saved shaq from choking away an easy title vs indy

Scored 14 points to Shaq's 43 in game 1

Replaced by 36 year old Ron Harper in game 2

Needed Shaq to score 36 and keep game close due to getting outscored by Reggie

8 points on 4/20 game 5

Outscored by 15 in game 6 by Shaq and taking 8 more shots to score 1 more point than Reggie

B A I L E D.

[Orange_Cassidy]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3ohc172JJbbmUfVxhS/giphy.gif

yeah i've said jordans the goat many times. also said he was a better leader. his career is the best so hes above kobe. phil also said what i say and kobe is the more skilled player. hes the better peak player. even jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1 because he has all his moves ( plus more range )

[Orange_Cassidy]

Scored 14 points to Shaq's 43 in game 1

Replaced by 36 year old Ron Harper in game 2

Needed Shaq to score 36 and keep game close due to getting outscored by Reggie

8 points on 4/20 game 5

Outscored by 15 in game 6 by Shaq and taking 8 more shots to score 1 more point than Reggie

B A I L E D.

1. why do you deny kobes defensive impact

2. why do you count kobes game 5 instead of his game 4

3. why do you again ignore kobe manufacturing points at the end of game 6 like he did in game 4 since he was their closer when things got tight

[Phoenix]

yeah i've said jordans the goat many times. also said he was a better leader. his career is the best so hes above kobe. phil also said what i say and kobe is the more skilled player. hes the better peak player. even jordan said kobe would beat him 1 on 1 because he has all his moves ( plus more range )

More skilled( arguably) doesnt necessarily mean better peak. Hakeem is more skilled than Shaq but most would say Shaq peaked higher. And the actual skill level between those two is way less nuanced than the few areas you want to argue Kobe is better in( as if MJ doesnt have skill edges in other ways).

[Orange_Cassidy]

the funny thing is i got this guy doing circles trying to prove to me that peak shaq ( the MDE ) didn't need a 21 year old to save him from choking away his greatest season ....TWICE


that in itself is a huge testament to kobe since jordan at the same age only had 1 playoff victory vs the bucks in the first round in which jordan never once led the game in scoring in all 4 he played that year

meanwhile kobes saving the lakers in game 7 vs portland outscoring shaq. out rebounding shaq and outblocking shaq in the most important game of shaqs life

then saving the finals for him in game 4

[Orange_Cassidy]

the last thing a jordan guy should ever do is nitpick what kobe did at age 21

and especially age 22 and 23


thats just opening a way bigger can of worms

[Phoenix]

1. why do you deny kobes defensive impact

2. why do you count kobes game 5 instead of his game 4

3. why do you again ignore kobe manufacturing points at the end of game 6 like he did in game 4 since he was their closer when things got tight

1. Why do you deny Shaq scoring 43 was the main difference maker in game 1

2. Why do you count Kobes game 4 and downplay his game 5

3. Why do you ignore than going 8/27 to score 26 points, regardless of any late game point production, is largely detrimental over the course of a game

[Orange_Cassidy]

1. Why do you deny Shaq scoring 43 was the main difference maker in game 1

2. Why do you count Kobes game 4 and downplay his game 5

3. Why do you ignore than going 8/27 to score 26 points, regardless of any late game point production, is largely detrimental over the course of a game



do you need me to repeat my last 2 posts? i got you doing backflips trying to prove that a 21 year old didn't completely take over the wcf and nba finals when the MDE shat the f*cking bed

do you seriously want me to turn into a leroid fan right now and bring up jordans playoff experience during that age ... hell. maybe i should bring up lebrons

i don't even know who the f*ck you're a fan of TBH because you're that insignificant around here

[Phoenix]

the funny thing is i got this guy doing circles trying to prove to me that peak shaq ( the MDE ) didn't need a 21 year old to save him from choking away his greatest season ....TWICE


that in itself is a huge testament to kobe since jordan at the same age only had 1 playoff victory vs the bucks in the first round in which jordan never once led the game in scoring in all 4 he played that year

meanwhile kobes saving the lakers in game 7 vs portland outscoring shaq. out rebounding shaq and outblocking shaq in the most important game of shaqs life

then saving the finals for him in game 4

Nobody goes in circles like you. Stuck on auto-reply in every Kobe debate, going through hundreds of accounts where you being banned has become a staple of the forum, and as much of a loser as you are you just keep coming back for more. The only thing I have left to say about Kobe is that its a shame he was ripped from us while useless pieces of shit like you march on.

[Phoenix]

i don't even know who the f*ck you're a fan of TBH because you're that insignificant around here

And you're that big a loser than someone as insignificant as me has managed to have you on a leash for 4 pages, with me mostly trolling your sorry ass with a legit reply once every 4 posts. But yeah, I'm going in circles LOL.

[Phoenix]

How's your daughter, Kenny?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Nobody goes in circles like you. Stuck on auto-reply in every Kobe debate, going through hundreds of accounts where you being banned has become a staple of the forum, and as much of a loser as you are you just keep coming back for more. The only thing I have left to say about Kobe is that its a shame he was ripped from us while useless pieces of shit like you march on.

this is you right now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pm4n7t9R8M


jeff is the guy that says "unbelievable"

[j3lademaster]

More skilled( arguably) Even without bbiq taken into account? What would be your argument for Jordan?

[Phoenix]

Even without bbiq taken into account? What would be your argument for Jordan?

Who said I was making one? I haven't in a single post here proclaimed Jordan to be more skilled.

[Phoenix]

this is you right now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pm4n7t9R8M


jeff is the guy that says "unbelievable"

Daughter?

BTW real life cucks talk about 'significance' on a forum of strangers. Are you a cuck, Kenny?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Daughter?

BTW real life cucks talk about 'significance' on a forum of strangers. Are you a cuck, Kenny?

you've brought up my daughter ITT more often than i've probly mentioned her existence to anyone

obsessed much?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e3b4f73847cd1ac46aed47e39df5859c/tenor.gif?itemid=16785052

[Phoenix]

you've brought up my daughter ITT more often than i've probly mentioned her existence to anyone

obsessed much?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e3b4f73847cd1ac46aed47e39df5859c/tenor.gif?itemid=16785052

I am, actually. How is she? I need to know before this account gets banned.

[j3lademaster]

Who said I was making one? I haven't in a single post here proclaimed Jordan to be more skilled.I was just curious.

[Orange_Cassidy]

I am, actually. How is she? I need to know before this account gets banned.

i have a dynamic IP moron. like i said before. this ends when i say it ends. that or shut down registration forever

[Phoenix]

i have a dynamic IP moron. like i said before. this ends when i say it ends. that or shut down registration forever

Ah, and that will entail what? A job? Moving out of your moms basement? Actual sex with a woman?

What got your last account banned? Dropping dic pics while calling another poster a fakkit?

[Phoenix]

I was just curious.

Its well worn ground at this point. The last few pages have just been mostly about the free entertainment watching Kenny rage on.

[Phoenix]

I was just curious.

Your post #37 mostly sums up my sentiments on the topic.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Ah, and that will entail what? A job? Moving out of your moms basement? Actual sex with a woman?

What got your last account banned? Dropping dic pics while calling another poster a fakkit?

you're trying to sound smart right now i get it. but at least put sentences together that makes sense.

you just insinuated that i "have actual sex with women and it ends when i say it ends"

and you just asked about my daughter how many times. you know kids don't come from storks right?

https://historydaily.org/content/75056/f26180ade60a3b4979517c2039dbd357.jpg

[Phoenix]

you're trying to sound smart right now i get it. but at least put sentences together that makes sense.

you just insinuated that i "have actual sex with women and it ends when i say it ends"

and you just asked about my daughter how many times. you know kids don't come from storks right?

https://historydaily.org/content/75056/f26180ade60a3b4979517c2039dbd357.jpg

I mean I know you're trying to sound smart right now, I get it..... so I figured you'd grasp the concept that there are ways other than PIV sex to procreate. Which would explain everything about you. It's cute that you figured I hadn't already assumed you'd make some comment about your daughter, and you having sex with a female as if the only way you could have produced one is through actual contact with a female. Nobody who devotes their life to defending Kobe Bryant across hundreds of accounts and thousands of posts would have the energy to know what to do with a p*ssy if one came and sat on your face.

[MadDog]

This thread went off the deep end.

[3ba11]

This thread went off the deep end.


Oddly, I've been enjoying it

[Orange_Cassidy]

I mean I know you're trying to sound smart right now, I get it..... so I figured you'd grasp the concept that there are ways other than PIV sex to procreate. Which would explain everything about you. It's cute that you figured I hadn't already assumed you'd make some comment about your daughter, and you having sex with a female as if the only way you could have produced one is through actual contact with a female. Nobody who devotes their life to defending Kobe Bryant across hundreds of accounts and thousands of posts would have the energy to know what to do with a p*ssy if one came and sat on your face.


is that really your comeback

[Orange_Cassidy]

This thread went off the deep end.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzySolidGalah-max-1mb.gif

[Phoenix]

is that really your comeback

Is that really yours?

[Phoenix]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzySolidGalah-max-1mb.gif

Says the test tube baby who thought you had some irrefutable point earlier :lol

[Orange_Cassidy]

Is that really yours?

to what? you accusing me of artificially inseminating the mother of my child so i could avoid responsibility for 9 years and her agreeing to it just so you could cover up a gaping hole in your insult about me not having sex with women even though you've been attempting to troll me about my kid like 20 times ITT






























https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzySolidGalah-max-1mb.gif

[Orange_Cassidy]

Says the test tube baby who thought you had some irrefutable point earlier :lol

wait so now me and my daughter are both artificially inseminated?



























https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzySolidGalah-max-1mb.gif

[Phoenix]

to what? you accusing me of artificially inseminating the mother of my child so i could avoid responsibility for 9 years and her agreeing to it just so you could cover up a gaping hole in your insult about me not having sex with women even though you've been attempting to troll me about my kid like 20 times ITT






























https://thumbs.gfycat.com/KlutzySolidGalah-max-1mb.gif

You coming on a message board trying to solicit $1000 to see your child? Not behaviour associated with someone who remotely has their shit together. If you aren't a test tube, you're better off just saying you are. Otherwise.....yikes.

[Phoenix]

wait so now me and my daughter are both artificially inseminated?



















I mean if you want to frame the admission as a question, sure.

[Mauzah]

thats what made kobe so great. he could take impossible shots and make enough of them to still be great.. maybe not the most efficient. but efficient enough to win...


kobe took shots that jordan would average 20%fg's on ... imagine michael jordan taking 30 footers falling out of bounds over 2 guys... you would think he lost his damn mind. and the ball wouldn't even come close. he looked uncomfortable shooting wide open threes. imagine him doing a kobe shot. its even fathomable

Dude, Kobe is all my all time favorite player but common - there's a reason why he's settling for those heavily contested 3's and it's not because he wants to showcase his incredible outside shooting ability.

Kudos to MJ for having the first step and presence of mind to use his shoulders to seal off his defender for a CLEAN EFFICIENT SHOT at the basket.

If Kobe could have consistently gotten those types of looks you bet your ass he would have.