players that faced the highest AVG D for their careers in the playoffs.

[coastalmarker99]

AVG D faced rankings.


1 Wilt Chamberlain -2.48 playoff games played 160

2 Kevin Garnett -2.02 playoff games played 133

3 Lebron James -1.8 playoff games played 260

4 Kobe Bryant -1.7 playoff games played 201

5 Shaquille O'Neal -1.51 playoff games played 199

6 Michael Jordan -1.11 playoff games played 178

7 Larry Bird -0.63 playoff games played 161

8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -0.03 playoff games played 222

9 Tim Duncan 0.14 games playoff games played 252

10 Magic Johnson 0.38 games playoff games played 186

11 Bill Russell 0.98 playoff games played 167

12 Hakeem Olajuwon 1.05 playoff games played 140

[coastalmarker99]

The Elephant in the Room



Arguably the most notable gap though is the one between our two GOAT candidates, Lebron James and Michael Jordan.


Both played a very large number of games, for the most part, unhampered by any notable extensive help. However, Lebron clocks in at 2nd ranked facing an average of -1.8 defence faced while Jordan falls at 6th facing an average of a -1.11 defense.

[coastalmarker99]

Jordan struggled against top tier defensive teams when compared to all the other top ten all-time greats as his efficiency falls hard.


Jordan from 1987 to 1998 had a +0.3 rTS% outside of the first round.
Jordan:
1993: vs. Knicks:
32.2 ppg on .52.2 TS% (-1.4 rTS)
(-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1997: vs. Heat:
30.2 ppg on .47.5 TS%(-6.1 rTS)
(-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1996: vs. Sonics:
27.3 ppg on .53.8 TS% (-0.4 rTS)
(-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

[ImKobe]

Lebron vs Pistons '06: 26.6 ppg 51.6%TS
Lebron vs Pistons '07: 25.7 ppg 53.7%TS
Lebron vs Spurs '07: 22.0 ppg 42.8%TS
Lebron vs Celtics '08: 26.7 ppg 48.0%TS
Lebron vs Bulls '15: 26.2 ppg 46.0%TS
Lebron vs Hawks '15: 30.3 ppg 50.6%TS
Lebron vs Warriors '15: 35.8 ppg 47.7%TS

[ImKobe]

Also, the "average D" is much worse in today's NBA compared to what it was in the late 90s-late 00s.

[hold this L]

Link to this?

[coastalmarker99]

Link to this?

https://diamondhoop5.wordpress.com/2021/05/04/playoff-defenses-faced-by-all-time-players/


https://diamondhoop5.wordpress.com/2021/07/12/playoff-defenses-faced-update/

[And1AllDay]

5*'s

[theman93]

Lebron vs Pistons '06: 26.6 ppg 51.6%TS
Lebron vs Pistons '07: 25.7 ppg 53.7%TS
Lebron vs Spurs '07: 22.0 ppg 42.8%TS
Lebron vs Celtics '08: 26.7 ppg 48.0%TS
Lebron vs Bulls '15: 26.2 ppg 46.0%TS
Lebron vs Hawks '15: 30.3 ppg 50.6%TS
Lebron vs Warriors '15: 35.8 ppg 47.7%TS

Ethered.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron vs Pistons '06: 26.6 ppg 51.6%TS
Lebron vs Pistons '07: 25.7 ppg 53.7%TS
Lebron vs Spurs '07: 22.0 ppg 42.8%TS
Lebron vs Celtics '08: 26.7 ppg 48.0%TS
Lebron vs Bulls '15: 26.2 ppg 46.0%TS
Lebron vs Hawks '15: 30.3 ppg 50.6%TS
Lebron vs Warriors '15: 35.8 ppg 47.7%TS


Thank you for sharing that with me.

[Micku]

Also, the "average D" is much worse in today's NBA compared to what it was in the late 90s-late 00s.

Yeah, defense isn't really comparable across eras. It shouldn't be. They are playing under different rules, different play styles, different pace.

Back then, you are allowed to hand check, bigs could camp the paint, and spacing wasn't as good. And the shot clock would reset back to 24 after a miss. And you could walk the ball up the floor. The 70s was it more physical. The early 00s had the lowest pace.

The average defense on itself it's just subjective to it's own year than across eras. It was a different game with different rules and styles. While an interesting stat, I would say it's not really useful as much as we would like to compare. They aren't playing under the rules. The best you could say is relative to it's own era. But even then when comparing across eras, it still gets a little shaky.

[coastalmarker99]

When taken all games into account, Jordan’s scoring against -3, -4, and better defences weren’t as resilient as LeBron’s or Kareem’s scoring, especially when looking at eFG% as Jordan’s TS% got greatly aided by soft calls on the perimeter when he wasn’t shooting well.



But on the whole, with his volume, the offence was always just good enough to win even when not spectacular given the defence his teams wound up playing. Additionally, Jordan’s playmaking and opportunity creation has always been a strong suit that doesn’t get mentioned enough, which helped the Bulls have a very good offensive series even when Jordan struggled shooting.



Lastly, in series in which Jordan struggled, his teammates often picked up the slack and the Bulls’ team offence performed well.

Against the great 1993 Knicks defence, very good 1997 Heat, 1996 Sonics, 1997 Hawks, for example, Jordan didn’t score efficiently, but the Bulls wound up having very good or good offensive series (+12.7 rORtg vs. the Knicks, +3.4 rORtg vs the Heat, +9.1 rORtg vs the Sonics, +12.6 rORtg vs the Hawks).

1993 Knicks, -8.3 rDRtg, -1.4 rTS%, -1.2 reFG% [Knicks’ DRtg 99.7, Bulls’ ORtg for series 112.4]

1997 Heat, -6.1 rDRtg, -6.1 rTS%, -7.1 reFG% [100.6, 104.0]

1996 Sonics, -5.5 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, -4.0 reFG% [102.1, 111.3]

1989 Cavs, -4.9 rDRtg, +6.1 rTS%, +5.3 reFG% [102.9, 106.8]

1990 Pistons, -4.6 rDRtg, +2.9 rTS%, +2.4 reFG% [103.5, 101.4]

1986 Celtics, -4.6 rDRtg, +4.3 rTS%, +4.5 reFG% [102.6, 108.3]

1997 Hawks, -4.4 rDRtg, -3.0 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [102.3, 114.9]

1985 Bucks, -4.3 rDRtg, +2.2 rTS, -2.5 reFG% [103.6, 108.7]

1996 Knicks, -4.1 rDRtg, -.8 rTS%, -1.0 reFG% [103.5, 105.2]

1992 Blazers, -4.0 rDRtg, +8.6% rTS%, +9.4 reFG% [104.6, 110.8]

1992 Knicks, -4.0 rDRtg, +2.1 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.2, 111.2]

1996 Heat, -3.8 rDRtg, +5.7 rTS%, -2.3 reFG% [103.8, 119.2]

1998 Pacers, -3.4 rDRtg, +3.2 rTS%, +3.2 reFG% [101.6, 114.2]

1991 Pistons, -3.3 rDRtg, +11.2 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [104.6, 121.6]

1989 Pistons, -3.1 rDRtg, +2.4 rTS%, +1.8 reFG% [104.7, 103.1]

1991 Lakers, -2.9 rDRtg, +7.8 rTS%, +9.2 reFG% [105.0, 115.7]

1988 Pistons, -2.7 rDRtg, +1.1 rTS%, +1.1 reFG% [105.3, 95.8]

1997 Jazz, -2.7 rDRtg, -.4 rTS%, +.1 reFG% [104.0, 104.6]

[3ba11]

Jordan averaged 40+ against #1 and #2 defenses (and #1 SRS teams), which is unprecedented.. he also shot 50% in those series.

You also need to post the sidekick stats because if a sidekick is getting 16 on 40%, that will put all the attention on MJ, which reduces his efficiency.

In most of those series that you posted where Jordan's efficiency wasn't elite, Pippen averaged 16 on 40%... or worse... Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals..

[RogueBorg]

Yeah, defense isn't really comparable across eras. It shouldn't be. They are playing under different rules, different play styles, different pace.

Back then, you are allowed to hand check, bigs could camp the paint,

If you're referring to the 90's, bigs could not camp the paint in that era. The illegal defense rule required defenders to stay within 3ft of the player they were guarding. So if Jordan was on the right side and Cartwright stayed on the left outside, Patrick Ewing had to stay with Cartwright. If Ewing camped the paint as you suggested he would have been called for illegal defense.

"For decades the NBA required teams to play man-to-man defense, which meant everyone on the court had to guard someone. You could double team one player and then recover to your man, but you could not be caught between players, guarding no one. That would be an illegal defense. That also meant you couldn't just stand in the paint all day guarding no one."

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think this stat can be overrated in certain circumstances. For example, a guy like gobert looked like a defensive god in regular season and then in playoffs he's getting humiliated by Terrance Mann. Something about gobert in the playoffs, he's not himself and turns into a dork. I don't know if its a Utah jazz choking trend or it's just him? But that's how it is.

I would say the most impressive run was 2019 playoffs if you look at defenses faced. Going through two defensive players of the year in Giannis/Draymond was the GOAT run because they are actually playoff performers. Giannis leads playoffs in defensive win shares this season, draymond has done it like 4 different years. Also the icing on the cake is playing 3 different all defensive players in Simmons/butler/embiid.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thank you for sharing that with me.


:roll::roll::roll:

[ImKobe]

I think this stat can be overrated in certain circumstances. For example, a guy like gobert looked like a defensive god in regular season and then in playoffs he's getting humiliated by Terrance Mann. Something about gobert in the playoffs, he's not himself and turns into a dork. I don't know if its a Utah jazz choking trend or it's just him? But that's how it is.

I would say the most impressive run was 2019 playoffs if you look at defenses faced. Going through two defensive players of the year in Giannis/Draymond was the GOAT run because they are actually playoff performers. Giannis leads playoffs in defensive win shares this season, draymond has done it like 4 different years. Also the icing on the cake is playing 3 different all defensive players in Simmons/butler/embiid.

It's all about matchups and strategy. Small ball has always been Gobert's achilles' heel, he's a great rim protector but if you put 5 shooters out there he's not going to be able to be as effective, he either closes out on Terrance Mann in the corner and leaves the paint wide open or he stays inside and lives with Mann taking the open shot, which unfortunately resulted in Mann having one of the unlikeliest heroic performances in a close-out game. A great defensive team might live with Lebron getting 40 in single coverage as long as they take away his teammates like they were able to do in the '09 ECF and many other series, or like when the Clippers allowed Luka and Mitchell to feast for 3 quarters and then trapped them in late game situations to force their teammates to beat them.

[WhiteKyrie]

Yeah, defense isn't really comparable across eras. It shouldn't be. They are playing under different rules, different play styles, different pace.

Back then, you are allowed to hand check, bigs could camp the paint, and spacing wasn't as good. And the shot clock would reset back to 24 after a miss. And you could walk the ball up the floor. The 70s was it more physical. The early 00s had the lowest pace.

The average defense on itself it's just subjective to it's own year than across eras. It was a different game with different rules and styles. While an interesting stat, I would say it's not really useful as much as we would like to compare. They aren't playing under the rules. The best you could say is relative to it's own era. But even then when comparing across eras, it still gets a little shaky.

100%. And it makes the thread entirely ****ing stupid. You can’t compare that sometimes from year to year even. It’s all self contained within the rules in place style of each individual season. You should just compromise which players faced which ranked defense is within each individual season and then rank it out.

And even then defensive rating alone isn’t indicative of a teams quality. Do they make you work and expend energy on the other side of the ball as well? It’s the entire package.

It’s why you can’t call LeBron James the best player of all time when he doesn’t have the success to back it up, and he’s meager and weak on one side of the ball in comparison to the guy he’s being compared to. It’s the total package. You don’t get to only play quality defense for three seasons at a high-level and get compared to somebody who is on nine first team defenses

[HBK_Kliq_2]

It's all about matchups and strategy. Small ball has always been Gobert's achilles' heel, he's a great rim protector but if you put 5 shooters out there he's not going to be able to be as effective, he either closes out on Terrance Mann in the corner and leaves the paint wide open or he stays inside and lives with Mann taking the open shot, which unfortunately resulted in Mann having one of the unlikeliest heroic performances in a close-out game. A great defensive team might live with Lebron getting 40 in single coverage as long as they take away his teammates like they were able to do in the '09 ECF and many other series, or like when the Clippers allowed Luka and Mitchell to feast for 3 quarters and then trapped them in late game situations to force their teammates to beat them.

Can you think of any time Gobert was actually dominant in the playoffs though? or any time he eliminated a top 10 player? He's always goofy in the playoffs and not himself. Houston used to humiliate him as well.

[Sulico]

I absolutely trust this reliable statistic.

Jason Kidd faced tougher D than Steph Curry. Riiight.

Steph Curry is constantly double teamed, they even digged up old college "box-and-1" strat for him in playoffs.

Now you show me all those double teams Jason Kidd faced.