Pippen really did this twice?

[Cyrus334]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

Yikes :facepalm

[ImKobe]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.

He's not even top 10 lol. SF was by far the weakest position of the 90s so he got a lot of accolades by default. Prime Grant Hill was much better though he was injured.

Nikkas really don't realize what a poor playoff performer Pippu was for most of their title runs. At least on offense.

[ImKobe]

He's not even top 10 lol. SF was by far the weakest position of the 90s so he got a lot of accolades by default. Prime Grant Hill was much better though he was injured.

Nikkas really don't realize what a poor playoff performer Pippu was for most of their title runs. At least on offense.

Absolutely. They completely overlook his inefficient scoring ability and try to act as if he was an elite passer & a lockdown defender when a young Kobe busted his ass 4 years in a row in the Playoffs after he left Chicago. Even a 19 y.o Kobe (his 1st year as a starter) outplayed & shut down Pippen (18.3 ppg on 32.7%FG :kobe: ) & on a team with two other top 20 all-time players in Hakeem & Barkley and we know what happened in 2000 when Pippen had 3 points and 6 fouls in the 2nd half with the worst 4th quarter choke in a Game 7 that we've ever seen with Kobe crossing him over 3 plays in a row that all led to points to cap off the comeback win.

[Orange_Cassidy]

and people bring up Kobe having ron artest in 2010

https://i.gifer.com/ST1t.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

and people bring up Kobe having ron artest in 2010

https://i.gifer.com/ST1t.gif
As they should


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4seP2wD_K4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMBdlTnJZXs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mT99HCFFI

[ClipperRevival]

Wheels is not going to like this.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/72e82f121ee69bd537c880849b19e6ab/tenor.gif?itemid=9848091

[Orange_Cassidy]

As they should


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4seP2wD_K4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMBdlTnJZXs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mT99HCFFI

why. the lakers were already up 3

and kobe got the assist. isn't that what lebron fans brag about all day

[SouBeachTalents]

why. the lakers were already up 3

and kobe got the assist. isn't that what lebron fans brag about all day
Yeah, completely ignore the other 2 :lol Turned Kobe's airball into a series changing GW, then saved Kobe from a career & legacy altering defeat

[ImKobe]

As they should



Delusional. Lakers should have never let go of Ariza.

[j3lademaster]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.If going solely by 1994 where do you rank him?

[Orange_Cassidy]

Yeah, completely ignore the other 2 :lol Turned Kobe's airball into a series changing GW, then saved Kobe from a career & legacy altering defeat

https://i.ibb.co/s5y8M2w/Screen-Shot-2021-07-14-at-5-27-57-PM.png

this is actually entirely caused by kobes presence.. all 5 defenders with their eyes stuck on kobe and their feet glued to the floor

artest just walks in and catches the ball and lays it in without any resistance

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.ibb.co/s5y8M2w/Screen-Shot-2021-07-14-at-5-27-57-PM.png

this is actually entirely caused by kobes presence.. all 5 defenders with their eyes stuck on kobe and their feet glued to the floor

artest just walks in and catches the ball and lays it in without any resistance
True, Kobe with the ultra clutch miss, just like against the Kings in '02 and OKC earlier in those playoffs

[ImKobe]

If going solely by 1994 where do you rank him?

He was top in 5 a bunch of metrics in the RS but not a top 5 player in the Playoffs. Horace Grant was better than him in the ECSF and Ewing outplayed him as well.

[Orange_Cassidy]

True, Kobe with the ultra clutch brick, just like against the Kings in '02 and OKC earlier in those playoffs

you mean the series vs the kings where a fan tried to murder kobe by feeding him tainted meat on purpose. he was hooked up to an IV bag before each game

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Yeah, completely ignore the other 2 :lol Turned Kobe's airball into a series changing GW, then saved Kobe from a career & legacy altering defeat

Artest had the best on/off during 2010 title run

Single handedly carried kings to playoffs

Probably wins finals mvp in 2005 if he didn't smash pistons fans face in

Super underrated player, just a psychopath.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Artest had the best on/off during 2010 title run

Single handedly carried kings to playoffs

Probably wins finals mvp in 2005 if he didn't smash pistons fans face in

Super underrated player, just a psychopath.

and part of the sub 40/30/60 club

[ImKobe]

Artest had the best on/off during 2010 title run

Single handedly carried kings to playoffs

Probably wins finals mvp in 2005 if he didn't smash pistons fans face in

Super underrated player, just a psychopath.

Kobe was 2nd to Rashard Lewis in RAPM in the 2010 Playoffs.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Kobe was 2nd to Rashard Lewis in RAPM in the 2010 Playoffs.

according to analytics lebrons 2018 and 2014 finals are his best ever and better than any of jordans

[ImKobe]

according to analytics lebrons 2018 and 2014 finals are his best ever and better than any of jordans

These analytics have some serious outliers but we overlook those and only use them when it's convenient. Rudy Gobert is the analytics god and John Hollinger (the guy who created the PER stat) had him as #2 in his personal MVP ballot and we know how he gets exposed by small ball in every single Playoffs.

[j3lademaster]

Kobe was 2nd to Rashard Lewisin RAPM in the 2010 Playoffs.I love rapm, but man in a small sample size like a playoff run it's so volatile. Couple hot and cold streaks from a teammate you're on the court with and you either look like a god or a scrub. I still maintain it's a good metric with the right context.

[ImKobe]

I love rapm, but man in a small sample size like a playoff run it's so volatile. Couple hot and cold streaks from a teammate you're on the court with and you either look like a god or a scrub. I still maintain it's a good metric with the right context.

It depends but all these advanced metrics have some serious flaws. It makes sense when you look at the best players on the teams that made deep Playoff runs (Lewis was basically a role player) and they have to be used in the right context, but they're never 100% accurate. We're all guilty of nit-picking some advanced metrics to make a case for a certain player but the PER, WS, BPM and VORP stats are all flawed one way or another.

[ClipperRevival]

3ball right now...

https://media.tenor.com/images/7322c760ef196d1396f876b520cb18dc/tenor.gif

[ClipperRevival]

Wheels right now...

https://media1.tenor.com/images/6b38b799d52aa5dd6f12fd3c49d70d94/tenor.gif?itemid=3561126

[97 bulls]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.

Idiots like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Chuck Daly, Charles Barkley, John Salley, etc.

Lol. I'll galdly be an idiot if those caliber of People agree with my stance (which they do).

The real idiots are the ones that try to make the argument that Jordan won those Championships by himself.

[3ba11]

If going solely by 1994 where do you rank him?


* 22 and 5 assists
* 55 wins
* 2nd Round


^^^ top 500 peak

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

Yikes :facepalm


Wait a minute... Has hell frozen over?

Is the media actually looking at how Pippen played, rather than assuming he played great because of the 6 chips? Because there's a lot more where that came from

That graphic shows the level that Pippen was on - ANYONE was a pippen because it's a low bar - pippen is a solid all-star - that's it - no different than KJ, Kemp, Stockton - he's actually below these guys - these guys all played much better than him

Btw, notice how only jordan won titles with his 2nd option playing at this level - only Jordan routinely beat top 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from the 2nd option, so only Jordan had carry-jobs against top teams.. and Jordan won like this all the time (5 times)

[ImKobe]

Idiots like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Chuck Daly, Charles Barkley, John Salley, etc.

Lol. I'll galdly be an idiot if those caliber of People agree with my stance (which they do).

The real idiots are the ones that try to make the argument that Jordan won those Championships by himself.

MJ, Hakeem, Chuck, Malone, D-Rob, Shaq.. are you taking Pippen over ANY of those guys?

[Kblaze8855]

It’s amazing what recent years have made modern fans think a second option was historically. The super team era has multiple bigtime scorers winning together and people who don’t remember the times before that seem to genuinely believe that’s how it’s supposed to be…..

Shaq/Kobe were such a dominant outlier because that shit was weird at the time. Kobe aside before the super team era? From 30 years ago you have Dumars, Pippen, Vernon Maxwell, aging Drexler, Pippen again, old Drob or Elliot I suppose…probably 14ppg there….then 14-15 ppg baby Parker, Billups who I think put up like 16 a game on 37% in the 04 playoffs, Parker or Manu, old Shaq and his 15-18 ppg in the playoffs and then we get to the super teams but still it’s Boston, Lakers, and Mavs who all had 17-20ppg second options though obviously the Celtics due to being stacked.

17-20ppg from your second guy was hardly a bad thing. And the only noteworthy defenders on that list were Pippen and Dumars. 90s and pre super team 2000s? You’re lucky to have a second 20ppg guy much less one who can play the total game and have opposing coaches saying he personally defeated them when he scored 5 points. Guys like Barkley had Mike Gmiski as second options, Nique running with Doc Rivers, Mitch Richmond with 7 guys you never heard of, Ewing with Starks as his best scorer for years and 3ball has actually convinced some of these kids Pippen was a bad second option relative to the rest of the league. Go look at some of David Robinsons other guys. Especially when Elliot was traded.

Even church boy Drob would cuss some of you out crying over Pippen as a second when he had Vinny DelNegro.

Growing up in a post super team world really throws off young peoples idea of what teams traditionally looked like. There are hall of famers who are there for their scoring who scored 18-22 a game in their primes. You would think 17 and 2 off shooting games while winning blowouts and playing great overall made you scum. In truth….it had other stars mad their other guys weren’t that good.

Hell most of the main guys weren’t that good either….

Seeing Steph, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, Harden, Westbrook, George and so on as second guys have ****ed up a whole generations idea of what a good other guy is. Cj Mccullom would lead most teams in nba history in scoring and these days people was him to be the 3rd guy.

That…is not how it always was. It certainly wasn’t for that 20 year period from the Bulls to the 2010s. The 80s had some of that….but it’s never been normal.

[Orange_Cassidy]

Wheels right now...

https://media1.tenor.com/images/6b38b799d52aa5dd6f12fd3c49d70d94/tenor.gif?itemid=3561126

do people actually still believe in a "wheels" aka "simon" lmao

https://i.ibb.co/yYJB7y9/Screen-Shot-2019-02-16-at-6-15-15-AM.png


this is who i thought it was but it turns out its just jeff and steve using 10 alts each.. who knows. this could be steve i guess. i don't really know what he looks like

[ImKobe]

It’s amazing what recent years have made modern fans think a second option was historically. The super team era has multiple bigtime scorers winning together and people who don’t remember the times before that seem to genuinely believe that’s how it’s supposed to be…..

Shaq/Kobe were such a dominant outlier because that shit was weird at the time. Kobe aside before the super team era? From 30 years ago you have Dumars, Pippen, Vernon Maxwell, aging Drexler, Pippen again, old Drob or Elliot I suppose…probably 14ppg there….then 14-15 ppg baby Parker, Billups who I think put up like 16 a game on 37% in the 04 playoffs, Parker or Manu, old Shaq and his 15-18 ppg in the playoffs and then we get to the super teams but still it’s Boston, Lakers, and Mavs who all had 17-20ppg second options though obviously the Celtics due to being stacked.

17-20ppg from your second guy was hardly a bad thing. And the only noteworthy defenders on that list were Pippen and Dumars. 90s and pre super team 2000s? You’re lucky to have a second 20ppg guy much less one who can play the total game and have opposing coaches saying he personally defeated them when he scored 5 points. Guys like Barkley had Mike Gmiski as second options, Nique running with Doc Rivers, Mitch Richmond with 7 guys you never heard of, Ewing with Starks as his best scorer for years and 3ball has actually convinced some of these kids Pippen was a bad second option relative to the rest of the league. Go look at some of David Robinsons other guys. Especially when Elliot was traded.

Even church boy Drob would cuss some of you out crying over Pippen as a second when he had Vinny DelNegro.

Growing up in a post super team world really throws off young peoples idea of what teams traditionally looked like. There are hall of famers who are there for their scoring who scored 18-22 a game in their primes. You would think 17 and 2 off shooting games while winning blowouts and playing great overall made you scum. In truth….it had other stars mad their other guys weren’t that good.

Hell most of the main guys weren’t that good either….

Seeing Steph, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, Harden, Westbrook, George and so on as second guys have ****ed up a whole generations idea of what a good other guy is. Cj Mccullom would lead most teams in nba history in scoring and these days people was him to be the 3rd guy.

That…is not how it always was. It certainly wasn’t for that 20 year period from the Bulls to the 2010s. The 80s had some of that….but it’s never been normal.

How was it an outlier? So Shaq & Penny didn't happen? Hakeem & Drexler? Duncan and David Robinson in the late 90s? Ok, so D-Rob wasn't a high-volume scorer like Kobe when he played with Duncan, but he led the Spurs in PER, WS/48, BPM & VORP, DRTG in the RS and had the identical WS/48 and better BPM than Duncan in the Playoffs. Kevin Johnson was no scrub either, he might have led the Suns to a Finals before his injury in the 1990 WCF, he was a 20+/10+ type player a few years before teaming up with Barkley.

And before you tell me that Drexler was a low 20s scorer and washed, look at his 40 and 30-point games on insane efficiency in the elimination games against Utah or his Finals averages that were on par with Pippen's best, or how great of a player Stockton was (better in most advanced stats than Pippen and all-time leader in assists & steals).

MJ surely had some all-time great teams, but he carried them as a scorer by such a consistent margin that this argument should not exist. Whenever we look at great all-time duos, we have two players who are both capable of averaging 25-30+ and going off depending on match-ups and whoever has the hot hand, Pippen was NEVER that guy, he was a great all-around player and deserves to be recognized as such but he was never on the level of a Kobe/Shaq or Wade or Curry or Magic/Kareem or David Robinson. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great player but he was clearly a tier below that due to his offensive deficiencies.

[Pip' N Rodman]

do people actually still believe in a "wheels" aka "simon" lmao

https://i.ibb.co/yYJB7y9/Screen-Shot-2019-02-16-at-6-15-15-AM.png


this is who i thought it was but it turns out its just jeff and steve using 10 alts each.. who knows. this could be steve i guess. i don't really know what he looks like

Who's that guy

[ImKobe]

Who's that guy

The guy who thinks injured = missing the Playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

We really talking about Kobe vs old Drexler, Penny, and washed Drob not being an outlier scoring sidekick wise?

What #2s in history could score like Kobe before the super team era?

Wilt/West

Whoever was #2 on the Nuggets when they had Thompson, Issel, and so on….

Mchale potentially.

Not a lot. 5-6 teams out of hundreds sounds like an outlier to me.

[Kblaze8855]

Whenever we look at great all-time duos, we have two players who are both capable of averaging 25-30+


Only because when you say “We” you mean 25 year olds.

Teams didn’t play that way. Larry Bird was probably 5 years in when he even scored 25. Magic never did. Nobody on the 60s Celtics did regularly. West and Baylor did. Doc wasn’t scoring much with Moses. Isiah and Dumars didn’t. Stockton didn’t score. Hondo/Cowens didn’t do 25 each. Neither did Oscar when he was with Kareem. Immediately dropped his scoring. Reed/Frazier never did 25…neither of them.

Teams didn’t lean on one or two guys as often as now. A duo scoring 25 at the same time was weird for like 65 years.

When Shaq and Kobe were winning the only 20ppg second options were Peja, Antoine Walker, Glenn Robinson and Finley and none of them scored 25 a game at any point of their career.

25 was a lot….till recently.

[red1]

I would absolutely kill to have pippin in a raptors jersey


Would be a great honor tbh

[3ba11]

17-20ppg from your second guy was hardly a bad thing.





^^^ Nearly every time that a winning sidekick averaged those numbers, the 1st option averaged about the same - so they had an equal-scoring partner and weren't carrying the team with 34 ppg (doubling the sidekick scoring average)

Championships where the 1st option averages 10 points more than the sidekick in the playoffs and Finals is very rare - only Hakeem, MJ, Kobe and Dirk have done it in the history of 3-pointer basketball.

Btw, your numbers were wrong because Dumars averaged 27 and 6 assists in the 89' Finals, while McHale and Bird both averaged 25 ppg in the 86' Playoffs..






That…is not how it always was. It certainly wasn’t for that 20 year period from the Bulls to the 2010s. The 80s had some of that….but it’s never been normal.





No one in history won 3 Finals without a sidekick averaging 25 ppg or winning FMVP in at least one of the Finals.. Otoh, Pippen peaked at 21 ppg is 0/6 in FMVP, so only Jordan could win with him.

Everyone in history had a teammate lead them in scoring for an entire playoff run, while Jordan led his sidekick for every series by at least 10 ppg.. The only exception is KD - he led his team for every playoff run, but he had an equal-scoring partner twice in 14' and 16'.

[ImKobe]

We really talking about Kobe vs old Drexler, Penny, and washed Drob not being an outlier scoring sidekick wise?

What #2s in history could score like Kobe before the super team era?

Wilt/West

Whoever was #2 on the Nuggets when they had Thompson, Issel, and so on….

Mchale potentially.

Not a lot. 5-6 teams out of hundreds sounds like an outlier to me.

Kobe wasn't really a sidekick type of a player unless we're talking about 2000, but Drexler was not "old" as an All-NBA player who came up big in the Playoffs with 36/10/5 averages in the two elimination games against Utah & 22/10/7 in the Finals.

Kareem/Magic & Bird/McHale definitely qualify as well. Heck, even James Worthy was a FMVP one year with 36/16/10 in a Finals Game 7 against Detroit. Kareem & Magic traded FMVPs when rookie Magic went off in that Game 6 against Philly without Kareem.

Wade's another one, he could go off for 30-40 in a must-win game during those Heat title runs, he had one of the all-time great non-MVP seasons just 2 years before teaming up with Lebron & would have been a FMVP if Lebron was just a touch better in 2011. There are more examples to be found for sure. Who knows how dominant the late 60s/early 70s Lakers really could have been had those guys been healthy, they had that legendary win streak & the 69-win season with Elgin retired and that's when Wilt & West were both beyond their best years.

It's not really an outlier IMO, every era I can think of had at least 1-2 great duos, they didn't 3-Peat and Kobe & Shaq definitely are the strongest pairing, though their teams weren't all that great when you look at it (2000 was the deepest but Kobe wasn't a top 5 player then).

[red1]

*would kill to have pippen in a raptors jersey


spell check correcting my spelling of pippen

[j3lademaster]

*would kill to have pippen in a raptors jersey


spell check correcting my spelling of pippenI may be able to arrange this.

Who would you kill and what are your credentials?

[3ba11]

.
Worst true shooting in playoffs for winning sidekick (since 1980)


1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%


Pippen's 45.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals is probably the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous series of 15 on 33% - so he was a defensive role player, not a 2nd option star..

He also averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... literally horrible.. He was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career... Jordan doubled his playoff scoring average, while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often (assist percentage).. No one was carried more than Pippen.

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe wasn't really a sidekick type of a player unless we're talking about 2000, but Drexler was not "old" as an All-NBA player who came up big in the Playoffs with 36/10/5 averages in the two elimination games against Utah & 22/10/7 in the Finals.

Kareem/Magic & Bird/McHale definitely qualify as well. Heck, even James Worthy was a FMVP one year with 36/16/10 in a Finals Game 7 against Detroit. Kareem & Magic traded FMVPs when rookie Magic went off in that Game 6 against Philly without Kareem.

Wade's another one, he could go off for 30-40 in a must-win game during those Heat title runs, he had one of the all-time great non-MVP seasons just 2 years before teaming up with Lebron & would have been a FMVP if Lebron was just a touch better in 2011. There are more examples to be found for sure. Who knows how dominant the late 60s/early 70s Lakers really could have been had those guys been healthy, they had that legendary win streak & the 69-win season with Elgin retired and that's when Wilt & West were both beyond their best years.

It's not really an outlier IMO, every era I can think of had at least 1-2 great duos, they didn't 3-Peat and Kobe & Shaq definitely are the strongest pairing, though their teams weren't all that great when you look at it (2000 was the deepest but Kobe wasn't a top 5 player then).


Of the 10 highest scoring duos pre 2010….the only years that aren’t Kobe and Shaq are West/Baylor and one year of Melo and AI. As I said….that 25-30 ppg number two is a massive outlier. Or was at least.

If the LA Lakers didn’t exist I think the first such team would have been the Celtics the year Mchale started scoring. We talking 40 years. And the next one would be….Melo and AI I guess. Maybe I’m forgetting one. Can’t be sure…but I can’t think of any more. 25ppg out of a second option was nearly unheard of and always has been aside from various laker super teams.

[ImKobe]

Of the 10 highest scoring duos pre 2010….the only years that aren’t Kobe and Shaq are West/Baylor and one year of Melo and AI. As I said….that 25-30 ppg number two is a massive outlier. Or was at least.

If the LA Lakers didn’t exist I think the first such team would have been the Celtics the year Mchale started scoring. We talking 40 years. And the next one would be….Melo and AI I guess. Maybe I’m forgetting one. Can’t be sure…but I can’t think of any more. 25ppg out of a second option was nearly unheard of and always has been aside from various laker super teams.

That's fair, but I assumed you were saying that in the context of this thread, as MJ & Pippen were some kind of superteam in the 90s which I don't think was the case.

[3ba11]

Who cares about 17 points for Pippen when his efficiency was the worst-ever for a winning sidekick (as shown in the OP) and the 1st option must double his scoring average.

And aside from Gasol, Klay, Rip Hamilton, Horry, Jason Terry and Pippen, every winning sidekick in 3-pointer history was FMVP or averaged 25+ in the Finals, including Dr. J, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, Kobe, Shaq, Tony Parker, Wade, Kyrie, Curry, and AD

[Iverson3]

Iverson and Pippen could win 6 NBA titles if they play together in the 1990's. Jordan without Pippen is 1-9 in the playoffs.

[3ba11]

.
Winning sidekicks that averaged 25 in the Finals or won FMVP (since 1980):


Magic
Kareem
McHale
Worthy
Dumars
Kobe
Shaq
Tony Parker
Wade
Kyrie
Curry
AD


Sidekicks that didn't

Klay
Rip Hamilton
Horry
Jason Terry
Pippen (6 times)



Worst true shooting in playoffs for winning sidekick (since 1980)


1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%


Pippen's 45.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals is probably the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous series of 15 on 33% - so he was a defensive role player, not a 2nd option star..

He also averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... literally horrible.. He was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career... Jordan doubled his playoff scoring average, while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often (assist percentage).. No one was carried more than Pippen.

[WhiteKyrie]

Did KBlaze’s old senile ass just say Vinny Del Negro was The Admiral’s second best player?

Talk about being disingenuous from 3ball?

Del Negro was like the 4th best player in an absolute best case scenario on those pre Duncan Spur teams. Second option, was clearly Sean Elliott who averaged about 18 - 20 ish a game. Then was Avery Johnson.

Pippen was the prototype best second option. In terms of game and mentality. Then probably Pau Gasol.

They weren’t co alpha level player ala Hakeem / Drexler, D-Rob / Duncan, Shaq / Kobe, LeBron / Wade, LeBron / Kyrie, Curry / Durant

[3ba11]

Did KBlaze’s old senile ass just say Vinny Del Negro was The Admiral’s second best player?

Talk about being disingenuous from 3ball?

Del Negro was like the 4th best player in an absolute best case scenario on those pre Duncan Spur teams. Second option, was clearly Sean Elliott who averaged about 18 - 20 ish a game. Then was Avery Johnson.

Pippen was the prototype best second option. In terms of game and mentality. Then probably Pau Gasol.

They weren’t co alpha level player also Shaq / Kobe, LeBron / Wade, LeBron / Kyrie, Curry / Durant


Bro.. Kblaze has derailed this entire thread and turned it into a referendum on PPG (which pippen still loses) instead of EFFICIENCY (the thread topic)..

Among winning sidekicks, pippen is the least efficient sidekick ever, and the worst scorer when you consider this efficiency (worst-ever)

[97 bulls]

MJ, Hakeem, Chuck, Malone, D-Rob, Shaq.. are you taking Pippen over ANY of those guys?

Depends.

[j3lademaster]

Depends.Are you serious? There's a situation where you'd take Pippen over Shaq and Hakeem? If my team's designed around Pippen and I'm offered one of those guys I'm packing Pippen's bags for him, driving him to the airport and rebuilding from the ground up.

[WhiteKyrie]

Are you serious? There's a situation where you'd take Pippen over Shaq and Hakeem? If my team's designed around Pippen and I'm offered one of those guys I'm packing Pippen's bags for him, driving him to the airport and rebuilding from the ground up.

97 bulls is a delusional LeBron Stan disguised as a Pippen Stan :oldlol:

[tpols]

^^^ Nearly every time that a winning sidekick averaged those numbers, the 1st option averaged about the same - so they had an equal-scoring partner and weren't carrying the team with 34 ppg (doubling the sidekick scoring average)

Championships where the 1st option averages 10 points more than the sidekick in the playoffs and Finals is very rare - only Hakeem, MJ, Kobe and Dirk have done it in the history of 3-pointer basketball. Its also such an insult to Reggie and Clyde to have Pippen ranked like 20 spots above them. Give me a break.

Btw, your numbers were wrong because Dumars averaged 27 and 6 assists in the 89' Finals, while McHale and Bird both averaged 25 ppg in the 86' Playoffs..






No one in history won 3 Finals without a sidekick averaging 25 ppg or winning FMVP in at least one of the Finals.. Otoh, Pippen peaked at 21 ppg is 0/6 in FMVP, so only Jordan could win with him.

Everyone in history had a teammate lead them in scoring for an entire playoff run, while Jordan led his sidekick for every series by at least 10 ppg.. The only exception is KD - he led his team for every playoff run, but he had an equal-scoring partner twice in 14' and 16'.

Ether.

The problem is Pippen is ranked career GOAT wise right along and even better at times than guys like Barkley and Robinson. Kblaze just made fun of David Robinson lmao... '99 D-Rob had MVP metrics in the playoffs. Pippen never did that and that was washed up Robinson to an extent. Its crazy. Also says Barkley only had some no name when he played with KJ and Thunder Dan.

[97 bulls]

How was it an outlier? So Shaq & Penny didn't happen? Hakeem & Drexler? Duncan and David Robinson in the late 90s? Ok, so D-Rob wasn't a high-volume scorer like Kobe when he played with Duncan, but he led the Spurs in PER, WS/48, BPM & VORP, DRTG in the RS and had the identical WS/48 and better BPM than Duncan in the Playoffs. Kevin Johnson was no scrub either, he might have led the Suns to a Finals before his injury in the 1990 WCF, he was a 20+/10+ type player a few years before teaming up with Barkley.

And before you tell me that Drexler was a low 20s scorer and washed, look at his 40 and 30-point games on insane efficiency in the elimination games against Utah or his Finals averages that were on par with Pippen's best, or how great of a player Stockton was (better in most advanced stats than Pippen and all-time leader in assists & steals).

MJ surely had some all-time great teams, but he carried them as a scorer by such a consistent margin that this argument should not exist. Whenever we look at great all-time duos, we have two players who are both capable of averaging 25-30+ and going off depending on match-ups and whoever has the hot hand, Pippen was NEVER that guy, he was a great all-around player and deserves to be recognized as such but he was never on the level of a Kobe/Shaq or Wade or Curry or Magic/Kareem or David Robinson. That doesn't mean he wasn't a great player but he was clearly a tier below that due to his offensive deficiencies.

All that matters is wins and losses. Kobe didnt do any better in between Shaq and Gasol than Pippen did when Jordan left. In fact, Pippen did a better job with his teams than Kobe, Wade or whoever else you want bring up.

[97 bulls]

Are you serious? There's a situation where you'd take Pippen over Shaq and Hakeem? If my team's designed around Pippen and I'm offered one of those guys I'm packing Pippen's bags for him, driving him to the airport and rebuilding from the ground up.

Right, and you'll be sending an extra 10 wins with him.

[ImKobe]

All that matters is wins and losses. Kobe didnt do any better in between Shaq and Gasol than Pippen did when Jordan left. In fact, Pippen did a better job with his teams than Kobe, Wade or whoever else you want bring up.

Pippen got smoked in 1st rounds outside of 2000, when Kobe beat his ass the 2nd time out of the 4 straight series he washed him in. He only had Sheed, Sabonis & Steve Smith. Kobe wins multiple titles with those guys and doesn't go 3 pts with 6 fouls in the 2nd half in the midst of blowing a double-digit 4th quarter lead in a Game 7.

[tpols]

Right, and you'll be sending an extra 10 wins with him.

:roll:

[97 bulls]

Pippen got smoked in 1st rounds outside of 2000, when Kobe beat his ass the 2nd time out of the 4 straight series he washed him in. He only had Sheed, Sabonis & Steve Smith. Kobe wins multiple titles with those guys and doesn't go 3 pts with 6 fouls in the 2nd half in the midst of blowing a double-digit 4th quarter lead in a Game 7.

Lol Scottie Pippen was almost 35 years old when he played against the Lakers. You're arguments are a joke.

[Axe]

Pippen got smoked in 1st rounds outside of 2000, when Kobe beat his ass the 2nd time out of the 4 straight series he washed him in. He only had Sheed, Sabonis & Steve Smith. Kobe wins multiple titles with those guys and doesn't go 3 pts with 6 fouls in the 2nd half in the midst of blowing a double-digit 4th quarter lead in a Game 7.
Scottie pippen has six rings over kobe's five.

[ImKobe]

Scottie pippen has six rings over kobe's five.

Horry has 7, what's your point?

[ImKobe]

Lol Scottie Pippen was almost 35 years old when he played against the Lakers. You're arguments are a joke.

MJ was 35 when he got Pippen to his 6th ring.

[97 bulls]

MJ was 35 when he got Pippen to his 6th ring.

What did 34 year old Kobe Bryant do with Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, Metta World Peace, and Antawn Jamison? Answer the question.

[Axe]

Horry has 7, what's your point?
The very same horry who carried kobe to his first three chips, you mean?

[ImKobe]

What did 34 year old Kobe Bryant do with Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, Metta World Peace, and Antawn Jamison? Answer the question.

Yes, blowing out an achilles in the RS is the same as choking a double-digit 4th quarter lead in a Game 7 of the WCF.

[j3lademaster]

Scottie pippen has six rings over kobe's five.


Horry has 7, what's your point?


The very same horry who carried kobe to his first three chips, you mean?Imkobe, mydude, how did you not see this coming? :roll:

Axe be like:
https://media.giphy.com/media/28nPwLlSgI6KH7UcxA/giphy.gif

[ImKobe]

The very same horry who carried kobe to his first three chips, you mean?

He sure did as a 7 ppg role player.

[Axe]

Imkobe, mydude, how did you not see this coming? :roll:

Axe be like:
https://media.giphy.com/media/28nPwLlSgI6KH7UcxA/giphy.gif
I mean isn't it true? Horry had two before kobe won his first. :confusedshrug:

Don't be a douche.

[Axe]

He sure did as a 7 ppg role player.
Ppg again? :roll:

[97 bulls]

Yes, blowing out an achilles in the RS is the same as choking a double-digit 4th quarter lead in a Game 7 of the WCF.

Kobe played in 78 games that year and the Lakers won 45 games. I doubt very seriously they get anywhere near a 7 WCF. Even with a healthy Kobe.

The point is Kobe, being a year younger with far more talent couldn't even amass 50 wins. What was the Blazers record in 00?

[ImKobe]

Kobe played in 78 games that year and the Lakers won 45 games. I doubt very seriously they get anywhere near a 7 WCF. Even with a healthy Kobe.

The point is Kobe, being a year younger with far more talent couldn't even amass 50 wins. What was the Blazers record in 00?

Lakers had a top 5 record post-ASB once the team got healthy. Nash, Blake & Gasol were all injured 1st half of the season.

[Axe]

Kobe played in 78 games that year and the Lakers won 45 games. I doubt very seriously they get anywhere near a 7 WCF. Even with a healthy Kobe.

The point is Kobe, being a year younger with far more talent couldn't even amass 50 wins. What was the Blazers record in 00?
I don't recall kobe winning over 50 games without phil jackson since '00. Same goes for mj when the zen master started coaching for the bulls since '90.

[ImKobe]

I don't recall kobe winning over 50 games without phil jackson since '00. Same goes for mj when the zen master started coaching for the bulls since '90.

Lakers won 41 out of 66 games in '12, which is a 51-win pace in a 82-game season. Lakers also won 56 and 61 games in the late 90s before Phil and were on a 50+ win pace in the lockout season as well.

[HoopsNY]

Great duos and elite second options isn't some anomaly historically. There's Oscar/Kareem, Sharman/Cousy, Heinsohn/Jones, Havlicek/Cowens, Baylor/West, Frazier/Reed, Wilt/Greer, Kareem/Magic, Magic/Worthy, McHale/Bird, Dr. J/Moses, Cummings/Moncrief, Isiah/Dumars etc just from the 60s-80s alone. And some names I'm leaving out.

Sure some of those 90s teams had some weak second options, but let's not pretend duos like Stockton/Malone, Kemp/GP, Penny/Shaq, KJ/Barkley, Duncan/Robinson, Clyde/Hakeem, Tim Hardaway/Zo, Zo/LJ etc weren't viable themselves. Every era has solid duos and it's not just some modern construct.

And honestly, the 90s was an era characterized by slower offenses and system play. Guys like Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott took a backseat to Shaq and Penny. Otherwise, they were 20 PPG scorers. The same with Hornacek, Hersey Hawkins, and Rod Strickland.

Hawkins took a backseat to GP/Kemp.

Hornacek to Stockton/Malone.

Strickland with guys like Howard/Webber/Richmond or Robinson/Clyde.

[Pip' N Rodman]

What did 34 year old Kobe Bryant do with Dwight Howard, Steve Nash, Pau Gasol, Metta World Peace, and Antawn Jamison? Answer the question.

Got 'em

[nayte]

Jrue with another shocker so far he is probably gonna catch or pass pip after this one.

[Axe]

Lakers won 41 out of 66 games in '12, which is a 51-win pace in a 82-game season. Lakers also won 56 and 61 games in the late 90s before Phil and were on a 50+ win pace in the lockout season as well.
Well, yes they did but like i said, since '00 when he started having him as their coach. And unfortunately i wouldn't consider 2012 as one because, you know, that season they were still only limited to 66 games.

[ImKobe]

Well, yes they did but like i said, since '00 when he started having him as their coach. And unfortunately i wouldn't consider 2012 as one because, you know, that season they were still only limited to 66 games.

Well, they were a 2-seed in '11 with 6MOY Odom and a 3-seed in 2012 without Phil & Odom.

[Axe]

Well, they were a 2-seed in '11 with 6MOY Odom and a 3-seed in 2012 without Phil & Odom.
Yea probably. And they went downhill from that point on. Never won any chips post-phil.

[And1AllDay]

.
Worst true shooting in playoffs for winning sidekick (since 1980)


1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%


Pippen's 45.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals is probably the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous series of 15 on 33% - so he was a defensive role player, not a 2nd option star..

He also averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... literally horrible.. He was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career... Jordan doubled his playoff scoring average, while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often (assist percentage).. No one was carried more than Pippen.

we just need to see the ppg

show us the playoff ppg plz

ill do it


13 wade......15.9 ppgz
89 isiah.......18.2 ppgz
93 pippen....18.6 ppgz
98 pippen....19.1 pgz
96 pippen....19.4 ppgz

just as we thought, wade was worst. isiah 2nd worst. pippen doesnt even rank as being bad ppgz

[97 bulls]

Lakers had a top 5 record post-ASB once the team got healthy. Nash, Blake & Gasol were all injured 1st half of the season.

So? By end of the season, they had a mediocre 45 wins.

How many wins do the Lakers get if they're relatively healthy?

And funny thing. Now he wants to take injuries into account for the Lakers. Pippen played hurt in 96 and 98. But he gets no slack.

[And1AllDay]

So? By end of the season, they had a mediocre 45 wins.

How many wins do the Lakers get if they're relatively healthy?

And funny thing. Now he wants to take injuries into account for the Lakers. Pippen played hurt in 96 and 98. But he gets no slack.

+1 while mikey mouse was busy taking 2 year vacations pippen was carrying the load like always

https://i.postimg.cc/pT4HkJ2Q/disney_90s_mikey_mouse.png

[ImKobe]

So? By end of the season, they had a mediocre 45 wins.

How many wins do the Lakers get if they're relatively healthy?

And funny thing. Now he wants to take injuries into account for the Lakers. Pippen played hurt in 96 and 98. But he gets no slack.

So what? Their starting and back-up PG, as well as their starting PF were injured.. the team was top-heavy and had D-leaguers starting as a result of the myriad of injuries you dumb ****.

[Pip' N Rodman]

+1 while mikey mouse was busy taking 2 year vacations pippen was carrying the load like always

https://i.postimg.cc/pT4HkJ2Q/disney_90s_mikey_mouse.png
:lol:roll::roll:

[And1AllDay]

+1 while mikey mouse was busy taking 2 year vacations pippen was carrying the load like always

https://i.postimg.cc/pT4HkJ2Q/disney_90s_mikey_mouse.png

:oldlol::roll:

[97 bulls]

So what? Their starting and back-up PG, as well as their starting PF were injured.. the team was top-heavy and had D-leaguers starting as a result of the myriad of injuries you dumb ****.

So ill ask again. How many wins do the Laker get that year if they're relatively healthy?

[ImKobe]

So ill ask again. How many wins do the Laker get that year if they're relatively healthy?

Top 4 seed so 50+ wins. Gasol, Nash & Blake all basically missed half the season, if they're healthy and they don't have D-leaguers starting it's a no-brainer. Nash had an injury that he never quite recovered from his 2nd game of the season, a healthy Nash running MDA's offense alone makes a HUGE difference.

[Taurus]

No one gonna talk about how arbitrary the statline is?

I mean it's pretty inefficient no matter what, but using 42% as the cutoff point?

[AlternativeAcc.]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.

Nobody is arguing that...

We're arguing he's top 5 ALL TIME... Bill Russell of his era

Bill would be on that same graphic numerous times. Doesn't mean shit.

Pippens winning, leadership, and all time defense speaks for itself.

You stat nerds are pathetic

[Bawkish]

Nobody is arguing that...

We're arguing he's top 5 ALL TIME... Bill Russell of his era

Bill would be on that same graphic numerous times. Doesn't mean shit.

Pippens winning, leadership, and all time defense speaks for itself.

You stat nerds are pathetic

that's rich coming from you

[ImKobe]

Nobody is arguing that...

We're arguing he's top 5 ALL TIME... Bill Russell of his era

Bill would be on that same graphic numerous times. Doesn't mean shit.

Pippens winning, leadership, and all time defense speaks for itself.

You stat nerds are pathetic

Why stop at Bill Russell? Why not argue him as the GOAT as he also has 6 rings and a 6 - 0 Finals record like MJ?

[Axe]

Why stop at Bill Russell? Why not argue him as the GOAT as he also has 6 rings and a 6 - 0 Finals record like MJ?
Because br never went 1-9 in the first round.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Why stop at Bill Russell? Why not argue him as the GOAT as he also has 6 rings and a 6 - 0 Finals record like MJ?

He has a strong case I'm not gonna lie or pretend he doesn't. The same thing that holds MJ back also holds Pippen back and that's the weak era they played in. Those rings don't mean much

But then again Russell's rings are pretty weak as well... so again there's an incredibly strong argument to be had for Pippen being GOAT... stronger than most for sure

Wherever Bill Russell is ranked that's where I rank pippen. It's usually around 5 so that's the range I have him in

[TheCorporation]

Why stop at Bill Russell? Why not argue him as the GOAT as he also has 6 rings and a 6 - 0 Finals record like MJ?

Are you going to ignore MJ's 1-9 blunder? Pippen/Russell would never.

[3ba11]

Nobody is arguing that...

We're arguing he's top 5 ALL TIME... Bill Russell of his era

Bill would be on that same graphic numerous times. Doesn't mean shit.

Pippens winning, leadership, and all time defense speaks for itself.

You stat nerds are pathetic


Players with weak scoring and efficiency that play good defense are defensive role players..

Among winning sidekicks, pippen is the least efficient sidekick ever, so he's the worst-scoring sidekick ever in light of this woat efficiency coupled with weak ppg

[97 bulls]

Nobody is arguing that...

We're arguing he's top 5 ALL TIME... Bill Russell of his era

Bill would be on that same graphic numerous times. Doesn't mean shit.

Pippens winning, leadership, and all time defense speaks for itself.

You stat nerds are pathetic

Exactly

[97 bulls]

Top 4 seed so 50+ wins. Gasol, Nash & Blake all basically missed half the season, if they're healthy and they don't have D-leaguers starting it's a no-brainer. Nash had an injury that he never quite recovered from his 2nd game of the season, a healthy Nash running MDA's offense alone makes a HUGE difference.

So how is that much different than the 59 wins the Blazers won? Except Kobe's team was far more talented.

[3ba11]

.
So we all agree that Pippen is the least efficient winning sidekick ever?

The OP proves it when we look at FG%, FT% and threes.. And Pippen has the worst true shooting percentage ever for a championship run, along with the 3rd worst and 5th worst (3 of the 5 worst true shooting percentages on championship runs)

And he ain't making up for his worst-ever efficiency with scoring - he was usually a weak scorer, so his efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever (among winning sidekicks)

[97 bulls]

.
So we all agree that Pippen is the least efficient winning sidekick ever?

The OP proves it when we look at FG%, FT% and threes.. And Pippen has the worst true shooting percentage ever for a championship run, along with the 3rd worst and 5th worst (3 of the 5 worst true shooting percentages on championship runs)

And he ain't making up for his worst-ever efficiency with scoring - he was usually a weak scorer, so his efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever (among winning sidekicks)

That was 2 playoff runs. Both netted a title. But again, apply context. In 96, the Bulls played agsint the 2nd, 4th, and 6th best defenses that year. And Pippen player hurt.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
So we all agree that Pippen is the least efficient winning sidekick ever?

The OP proves it when we look at FG%, FT% and threes.. And Pippen has the worst true shooting percentage ever for a championship run, along with the 3rd worst and 5th worst (3 of the 5 worst true shooting percentages on championship runs)

And he ain't making up for his worst-ever efficiency with scoring - he was usually a weak scorer, so his efficiency makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever (among winning sidekicks)
Pippen still outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 19 of 24 playoff series during the Bulls championship seasons, shows how weak that era was when a scrub like Pippen was consistently the best 2nd option

[ArbitraryWater]

The 3-point shot was a no-factor, he barely took any.

FT rate is passable.

All that boils down to is 40% shooting with DPOTY defense and great playmaking.

[3ba11]

Pippen still outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 19 of 24 playoff series during the Bulls championship seasons, shows how weak that era was when a scrub like Pippen was consistently the best 2nd option


It's easy to outscore guys when you have the worst efficiency ever.. And Pippen's poor performance cost the Bulls rings from 88-90' and 95', so why exclude those years?.. If Pippen hadn't been outscored so much those years, the Bulls would've won chips like the other years when Pippen wasn't outscored as often..

Overall, Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 11 of 33 series in his Bulls career, and 20 of 43 series in his career overall - this doesn't include the many times where he outscored someone by 1 point but had worst-ever efficiency (33-42%) - his worst-ever efficiency proves he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and therefore wasn't a 2nd option, especially considering he was outscored all the time by opposing 2nd options.

Pippen had the worst true shooting ever on a championship run in 1996, along with the 3rd and 5th worst in 98' and 93' (3 of the 5 worst true shooting playoff runs ever).. So Pippen is the least efficient sidekick ever, which combined with his weak scoring makes him the worst scoring sidekick ever (among winning sidekicks).. The evidence is overwhelming.

And it's easily proven that Pippen is overrated - he was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of new players like Kobe, Lebron or Duncan have passed him since - so he can't be top 50 today, yet many people have him top 30.. The reason Pippen gets overrated is because the on-paper evaluations of new fans Pippen only sees his 6 rings and overrate him compared to Ewing or Giannis' zero rings.. Pippen simply gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option - so imagine if Klay was ranked above Beal or Harden duet to rings - that would be unfair, but that's the treatment Pippen gets..

Ultimately, Pippen was horrible in the 88-90 Playoffs (14 ppg) or the 96-98 Playoffs (17.6 on 41%), and also the 99-03' Playoffs (11 ppg), or the 92' ECSF - so he was bad for nearly all of his playoff career - only in 91' and most of 92' was he a viable 2nd option..

[And1AllDay]

we just need to see the ppg

show us the playoff ppg plz

ill do it


13 wade......15.9 ppgz
89 isiah.......18.2 ppgz
93 pippen....18.6 ppgz
98 pippen....19.1 pgz
96 pippen....19.4 ppgz

just as we thought, wade was worst. isiah 2nd worst. pippen doesnt even rank as being bad ppgz

guys?

[Kblaze8855]

It's easy to outscore guys when you have the worst efficiency ever.. And he was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career - his worst-ever efficiency and getting outscored all the time proves that he wasn't a 2nd option.

Pippen had the worst true shooting ever on a championship run in 1996, along with the 3rd and 5th worst in 98' and 93' (3 of the 5 worst true shooting playoff runs ever).. So Pippen is the least efficient sidekick ever, which combined with his weak scoring makes him the worst scoring sidekick ever (among winning sidekicks).. The evidence is overwhelming.

And it's easily proven that Pippen is overrated - he was barely top 50 in 1996, and dozens of new players like Kobe, Lebron or Duncan have passed him since - so he can't be top 50 today, yet many people have him top 30.. The reason Pippen gets overrated is because the on-paper evaluations of new fans Pippen only sees Pippen's 6 rings and overrate him compared to Ewing or Giannis' zero rings.. Pippen simply gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option - so imagine if Klay was ranked above Beal or Harden duet to rings - that would be unfair, but that's the treatment Pippen gets..

Ultimately, Pippen was horrible in the 88-90 Playoffs (14 ppg) or the 96-98 Playoffs (17.6 on 41%), and also the 99-03' Playoffs (11 ppg), or the 92' ECSF - so he was bad for nearly all of his playoff career - only in 91' and most of 92' was he a viable 2nd option..


I only checked 4 off the top of my head and 3 of them in fact were lower than his. Including one in the ISH era. I’ll leave you to figure out who. Apparently you don’t even check and rely on kids not knowing better. I’m sure it usually works out with a board full of people who never heard of Mike Gminski. Not that he’s a big name….but anyone watching those classic Bulls/76ers matchups would have noticed him trying to give Barkley a second option.

[theman93]

Pippen was consistently average to below average on the offensive end in the playoffs so this doesn't surprise me at all.

[And1AllDay]

Pippen was consistently average to below average on the offensive end in the playoffs so this doesn't surprise me at all.

so If he is still outscoring all the opponent number 2 option what does that say about the nineties ball era?? :oldlol:

[3ba11]

I only checked 4 off the top of my head and 3 of them in fact were lower than his. Including one in the ISH era. I’ll leave you to figure out who. Apparently you don’t even check and rely on kids not knowing better. I’m sure it usually works out with a board full of people who never heard of Mike Gminski. Not that he’s a big name….but anyone watching those classic Bulls/76ers matchups would have noticed him trying to give Barkley a second option.


Worst true shooting in playoffs for winning sidekick (since 1980)


1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%


Pippen's 45.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals is probably the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous series of 15 on 33% - so he was a defensive role player, not a 2nd option star..

He also averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... literally horrible.. He was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career, while being the least efficient sidekick ever (see the OP)... Jordan doubled his playoff scoring average, while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often (assist percentage).. No one was carried more than Pippen.




I only checked 4 off the top of my head and 3 of them in fact were lower than his. Including one in the ISH era. I’ll leave you to figure out who. Apparently you don’t even check and rely on kids not knowing better. I’m sure it usually works out with a board full of people who never heard of Mike Gminski. Not that he’s a big name….but anyone watching those classic Bulls/76ers matchups would have noticed him trying to give Barkley a second option.


Winning sidekicks that averaged 25 in the Finals or won FMVP (since 1980):


Magic
Kareem
McHale
Worthy
Dumars
Kobe
Shaq
Tony Parker
Wade
Kyrie
Curry
AD


Sidekicks that didn't

Klay
Rip Hamilton
Horry
Jason Terry
Pippen (6 times)

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/u7oHlAJ7Bi0


Gminski is the big white guy on the bad end of like 9 Jordan highlights in there…not that anyone should expect him to prevent Jordan from doing anything in the first place.

[3ba11]

https://youtu.be/u7oHlAJ7Bi0


Gminski is the big white guy on the bad end of like 9 Jordan highlights in there…not that anyone should expect him to prevent Jordan from doing anything in the first place.


Worst true shooting in playoffs for winning sidekick (since 1980)


1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%


Pippen's 45.9% true shooting in the 93' Finals is probably the lowest ever for a winning sidekick and he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, including numerous series of 15 on 33% - so he was a defensive role player, not a 2nd option star..

He also averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals... literally horrible.. He was outscored by the opposing 2nd option in 20 of 43 series in his career, while being the least efficient sidekick ever (see the OP)... Jordan doubled his playoff scoring average, while averaging more assists and assisting 33% more often (assist percentage).. No one was carried more than Pippen.






Gminski is the big white guy on the bad end of like 9 Jordan highlights in there…not that anyone should expect him to prevent Jordan from doing anything in the first place.





Winning sidekicks that averaged 25 in the Finals or won FMVP (since 1980):


Magic
Kareem
McHale
Worthy
Dumars
Kobe
Shaq
Tony Parker
Wade
Kyrie
Curry
AD


Sidekicks that didn't

Klay
Rip Hamilton
Horry
Jason Terry
Pippen (6 times)

[Kblaze8855]

1) 96' Pippen.... 47.3%
2) 89' Isiah....... 48.1%
3) 98' Pippen.... 49.0%
4) 13' Wade...... 49.4%
5) 93' Pippen.... 50.4%



Writing it again doesn’t make it true. I’ll tell you if you can’t figure it out. It should be pretty obvious considering how often it comes up in “Least help” discussions.

[3ba11]

Writing it again doesn’t make it true. I’ll tell you if you can’t figure it out. It should be pretty obvious considering how often it comes up in “Least help” discussions.


Those numbers are 100% correct. Stop lying

[Kblaze8855]

Those numbers are 100% correct. Stop lying



Tony Parker. Under 15ppg….468 true shooting in the 03 playoffs as second leading scorer(which is all you care about). 14 on .451 in the finals. And as I said….he’s one of 3 worse and I only checked 4 off the top of my head. I just figured you’d remember eventually. It’s such an obvious one. I can see how some of the older ones wouldn’t come to mind.

[Kblaze8855]

Your list is also missing another who shot .471 then .445 in the finals. Also after 1980.

Its best I don’t even read your little lists. These things work better on people who don’t remember very much of the time in question and I’m sure you count on that. This is what you like doing with your day so I’ll leave you to it and go find some breakfast.

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ the Gminski reference.

[72-10]

https://i.ibb.co/s5y8M2w/Screen-Shot-2021-07-14-at-5-27-57-PM.png

this is actually entirely caused by kobes presence.. all 5 defenders with their eyes stuck on kobe and their feet glued to the floor

artest just walks in and catches the ball and lays it in without any resistance

They're tracking the ball, not Kobe, fool. Since he's taking a shot, they need to look at where the ball is.

[72-10]

Not Surprised Pippen did this , and twice.

[3ba11]

Your list is also missing another who shot .471 then .445 in the finals. Also after 1980.

Its best I don’t even read your little lists. These things work better on people who don’t remember very much of the time in question and I’m sure you count on that. This is what you like doing with your day so I’ll leave you to it and go find some breakfast.


I just wanted you to post who the others were, instead of being beta passive aggressive like a female and afraid

So Pippen has 3 of the worst 6 true shooting performances in 3-pointer history instead of 3 of 5?.. And how does that change the point that Pippen is the least efficient winning sidekick ever?.. only Pippen has a bunch of low efficiency wins on his resume

Pippen is the least efficient winning sidekick ever, and you didn't counter that point

[72-10]

Gminski is the big white guy on the bad end of like 9 Jordan highlights in there…not that anyone should expect him to prevent Jordan from doing anything in the first place.

Gminski was still a good player.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs:


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


And per Kblaze,

Pippen has 3 of the 7 worst true shooting performances by a winning sidekick in 3-pointer history - only Pippen is on the list more than once (3 times) - his low scoring and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won a title

[RogueBorg]

so If he is still outscoring all the opponent number 2 option what does that say about the nineties ball era?? :oldlol:

That the Bulls were a great defensive team duh?

[And1AllDay]

we just need to see the ppg

show us the playoff ppg plz

ill do it


06 walker.......13.3 ppgz
94 maxwell...13.8 ppgz
03 parker.......14.7 ppgz
13 wade........15.9 ppgz
04 billups.......16.4 ppgz
89 isiah.........18.2 ppgz

pippen is a king compared to those bums right? :oldlol:

93 pippen......18.6 ppgz
98 pippen......19.1 pgz
96 pippen.....19.4 ppgz

just as we thought, wade was way worst.

op ruined again

[3ba11]

we just need to see the ppg

show us the playoff ppg plz

ill do it


06 walker.......13.3 ppgz
94 maxwell...13.8 ppgz
03 parker.......14.7 ppgz
13 wade........15.9 ppgz
04 billups.......16.4 ppgz
89 isiah.........18.2 ppgz

pippen is a king compared to those bums right? :oldlol:

93 pippen......18.6 ppgz
98 pippen......16.9 pgz
96 pippen.....16.8 ppgz

just as we thought, wade was way worst.

op ruined again


You lied about the stats - i fixed it in the bolded above

Billups got 16.4 on 50%, which is fine... But Pippen got 16.8 on 39%... that's wetting the bed - pippen's efficiency meant he was completely wetting the bed.. those are defensive role player stats

[Sarcastic]

The 3-point shot was a no-factor, he barely took any.

FT rate is passable.

All that boils down to is 40% shooting with DPOTY defense and great playmaking.

Three pointers were about 1/3rd of his shots. It's not insignificant. He was taking about 6 per game in the second three peat.

[97 bulls]

Three pointers were about 1/3rd of his shots. It's not insignificant. He was taking about 6 per game in the second three peat.

And alotnl of that has to do with the fact that he was playing hurt.

[Sarcastic]

The craziest thing about this is that the other players were all 3rd or 4th options. Pippen was the #2 option each time.

Absolutely crazy that the Bulls were able to three peat. Their first option must have been really good.

[97 bulls]

The craziest thing about this is that the other players were all 3rd or 4th options. Pippen was the #2 option each time.

Absolutely crazy that the Bulls were able to three peat. Their first option must have been really good.

Or their team was just that good.

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg

Yikes :facepalm


The craziest thing about this is that Pippen is the only 2nd option on the list - Jrue, Artest and L Stephenson are 3rd and 5th options..

So the Bulls had a THE HIGHEST DOSAGE of woat offense but still 3-peated.. They 3-peated because Jordan succeeded at what Pippen forced him to do - defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load)..

Only Jordan had to defeat maximum defensive attention in every series (carry scoring load) because only Jordan lacked a go-to teammate for his entire career, as Kenny Smith explains here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

[WhiteKyrie]

And we have idiots on this forum trying to make asinine arguments about him being one of the 5 best players of his era. ****ing crazy.

He wasn’t the best SF in the early 90s - Nique
He wasn’t the best SF in the late 90s - G. Hill

He for 2 seasons was the best SF in the league in 1994 and 1995. He wasn’t definitively the best SF in the league for the entirety of the 90s. So how on earth could one make the claim he was a top five 90’s player?

When guys like Hakeem, D-Rob, Barkley, Malone, Shaq, Ewing and Drexler dominated that decade after Jordan.

[3ba11]

He wasn’t the best SF in the early 90s - Nique
He wasn’t the best SF in the late 90s - G. Hill

He for 2 seasons was the best SF in the league in 1994 and 1995. He wasn’t definitively the best SF in the league for the entirety of the 90s. So how on earth could one make the claim he was a top five 90’s player?

When guys like Hakeem, D-Rob, Barkley, Malone, Shaq, Ewing and Drexler dominated that decade after Jordan.


Pippen was always a system player that was lucky to grow up in a dynasty system and chemistry

Outside of the dynasty system, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

Pippen was a transition/hustle player, not an elite scorer.. His peak of 22/5 didn't require game-planning (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) or doubling (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s) - it was more the system, ball movement and chemistry that the opponent would get defeated by...

Pippen had 1 game over 34 points in 94' (39 pts) - this doesn't require game-planning.... So he was never as good as Grant Hill or Dominique, who demolished Pippen heads-up in the 93' Playoffs

[Full Court]

Their first option must have been really good.


Or their team was just that good.

Both. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[sdot_thadon]

Funny stuff, prime Ai was a hair from these numbers(with a better ft%) and yall gave him MVP. Lol.

[HoopsNY]

Of the 10 highest scoring duos pre 2010….the only years that aren’t Kobe and Shaq are West/Baylor and one year of Melo and AI. As I said….that 25-30 ppg number two is a massive outlier. Or was at least.

If the LA Lakers didn’t exist I think the first such team would have been the Celtics the year Mchale started scoring. We talking 40 years. And the next one would be….Melo and AI I guess. Maybe I’m forgetting one. Can’t be sure…but I can’t think of any more. 25ppg out of a second option was nearly unheard of and always has been aside from various laker super teams.

Everything you're saying is definitely true. At the same time, Pippen was not someone you could rely on for scoring, especially when it mattered the most. Of course, that was not his forte, but guys like Worthy, Magic, Penny, Drexler, KJ, Richmond, T. Hardaway, LJ (Hornets), Kemp, etc could put up big numbers in big games if needed whereas with Pippen that was most likely not gonna happen.

Fast forward to the 2000s and you still had second options capable of that - Rose, Peja, Sprewell, Parker, Shaq (Miami), AI (Denver), Finley, Nash, etc could all put up big numbers if needed, in the regular season or playoffs.

So while the norm wasn't elite scoring second options, most of those second options above still had a better capability of scoring than Pippen did.

[TheMan]

Absolutely. They completely overlook his inefficient scoring ability and try to act as if he was an elite passer & a lockdown defender when a young Kobe busted his ass 4 years in a row in the Playoffs after he left Chicago. Even a 19 y.o Kobe (his 1st year as a starter) outplayed & shut down Pippen (18.3 ppg on 32.7%FG :kobe: ) & on a team with two other top 20 all-time players in Hakeem & Barkley and we know what happened in 2000 when Pippen had 3 points and 6 fouls in the 2nd half with the worst 4th quarter choke in a Game 7 that we've ever seen with Kobe crossing him over 3 plays in a row that all led to points to cap off the comeback win.

To be fair to Pip, he was a shell of his former self by then, was never the same after the slew of injuries during the last two Bulls title runs.

[TheMan]

3ball right now...

https://media.tenor.com/images/7322c760ef196d1396f876b520cb18dc/tenor.gif

Lol

[WhiteKyrie]

Funny stuff, prime Ai was a hair from these numbers(with a better ft%) and yall gave him MVP. Lol.

Different era. 5’11 SG. 1994 to 2004 is the most difficult scoring climate ever in NBA history. Way more physical than todays soft ass game.

[sdot_thadon]

Different era. 5’11 SG. 1994 to 2004 is the most difficult scoring climate ever in NBA history. Way more physical than todays soft ass game.

Oh, we're doing context now? I see. Point still stands, a guy won Mvp with those numbers and Pippen was the 2nd beat on the team of his generation with those numbers, why does he get so much hate? Mj can be great and Scottie get credit, both things can be true.

[3ba11]

.

1992 WCF

Terry Porter..... 26/4/8 on 52%

(53% on threes on 6 attempts)


^^^ so the worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals is Damian Lillard.... :confusedshrug:

And Porter played like this for the entire run to the Finals in 90' and 92'... :no:

Every sidekick in the 90's was infact a 1b that achieved elite stats and led their team..... EXCEPT PIPPEN..

only Pippen had a low peak capability (22 ppg on bad efficiency) because only Pippen was a transition/hustle player - he was incapable of elite scoring like every other sidekick

Since MJ was the only guy that lacked a go-to or elite-scoring teammate, only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention in every series (carry scoring load)