Hakeem and Kareem in context...

[HoopsNY]

A lot is made about Hakeem's losing in the 1st round, yet not much is said about Kareem not winning without Top 10 tier players in his career like Magic and Oscar. Kareem played alongside guys like Magic, Oscar, Nixon, Worthy, Dandridge, Wilkes, Goodrich, etc. He missed the playoffs in his peak playing alongside Goodrich, finishing with a losing record (40-42).

No context is given to the demise of Hakeem's franchise, losing a would be dynasty to cocaine addictions and the injury to Ralph Sampson.

Another thing that people leave out is the fact that Kareem played in one of fastest paced eras in league history. The league pace during Kareem's peak/prime hovered around 105-107, whereas for Hakeem's, it was anywhere from 91-102, with the majority of his years being in the 90s.

Take a look at Kareem and Hakeem's PER 100 numbers during their respective peaks/primes in the regular season and playoffs.


RS Kareem '70-'81: 30.6 PPG 15.3 RBPG 5.1 ASPG 1.4 STLS 4.0 BLKS .556% FG%

RS Hakeem '86-'96: 31.8 PPG 15.9 RBPG 3.6 ASPG 2.5 STLS 4.7 BLKS .514 FG%


Playoffs Kareem '70-'81: 33.9 PPG 15.8 RBPG 4.4 ASPG 1.3 STLS 3.6 BLKS .533 FG%

Playoffs Hakeem '86-'96: 35.1 PPG 14.5 RBPG 4.3 ASPG 2.1 STLS 4.5 BLKS .531 FG%


People need to put some respect on Hakeem's name. Most people will discuss Kareem as a top 3 player but Hakeem almost never draws any comparisons. But how far away, if at all away, was he from the likes of Kareem?

If Hakeem has modern medicine to keep Ralph Sampson healthy, Lucas, Wiggins, and Lloyd. Or if he plays alongside the likes of Bird, Isiah, or Kobe, for example, then what would the outcome of his career have been?

And despite all of the obstacles, he still went to 3 NBA finals, winning 2 of them and 2 Finals MVPs. He won Regular Season MVP, DPOY, and FMVP in a single year (1994).

[iamgine]

Well Hakeem is often listed in the top 10. There's really not much difference between the top players. Like, when Robinson shared court with Hakeem, other than that 1 playoff series, Robinson actually looked better than Hakeem most of the times. And Robinson is ranked pretty far behind Hakeem.

[HoopsNY]

Well Hakeem is often listed in the top 10. There's really not much difference between the top players. Like, when Robinson shared court with Hakeem, other than that 1 playoff series, Robinson actually looked better than Hakeem most of the times. And Robinson is ranked pretty far behind Hakeem.

Most lists I see has Hakeem outside of the top 10.

[SouBeachTalents]

Most lists I see has Hakeem outside of the top 10.
Hakeem's usually jostling for the 10th spot with Kobe, I've seen him in the top 10 more often than not, though he's definitely not consensus top 10

[FKAri]

You could argue that Hakeem played in a more competitive era where the level of play was higher, sure. However, relative to their peers, Kareem was a monster right out of the gate and was a force even when his peers had all retired. Hakeem on the other hand had a bit of an unusual development trajectory in terms of bbiq and skill level, especially for a big. Most bigs don't continue to improve those things at the mid stages of their career but Hakeem did. He went from a raw athlete in college who relied on it heavily to one who relied on skills while in the tail end of his prime. Bigs usually let you know very early on who they're going to be. Not so with Hakeem imo.

[ClipperRevival]

I would take peak Hakeem over any C in history if we are talking peak value. The most complete C ever. GOAT tier on both ends.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/14fcad056bf24585d018ea8b4d05c833/tenor.gif?itemid=11513077

[Gudo]

I would take peak Hakeem over any C in history if we are talking peak value. The most complete C ever. GOAT tier on both ends.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/14fcad056bf24585d018ea8b4d05c833/tenor.gif?itemid=11513077

You always deliver with your gifs clip. Keep em coming.

[iamgine]

Most lists I see has Hakeem outside of the top 10.
Even outside, it's not far. Top 10, top 15, these are just arbitrary number. Hakeem ranked 9th or 12th, that's insignificant in reality.

[iamgine]

Like where is Steve Nash ranked all time? Around 30 ish?

If he shared the court with Magic, most nights we might not be able to tell who the better player is.

[ClipperRevival]

You always deliver with your gifs clip. Keep em coming.

https://media.tenor.com/images/1edac9aa424326303431219a3f865d47/tenor.gif

[Mr.GOAT2408]

I'd argue playing at a fast pace hurts bigs more and Kareem did play in a faster pace, the rules did favor bigs back then but Hakeem aging with a very slow paced product probably helped extend his and his peers longevity

Kareem did benefit from having Magic, you age with your running mate and having a 20 years old superstar (a top 10 caliber player ever) when you were entering your age 32 season is a great luxury to have, but I wonder how he'd have looked in the 90s when the rise of the 3 ball popularized running the offense through the post and kicking it out to 3 point shooters, that's a luxury he never had

Ultimately the longevity edge is way too much for me to ignore between two similar players and it's not like Hakeem didn't have his own PS issues such as his struggles getting past the Supersonics (I suspect that 1994 run would not have happened if the Nuggets didn't upset the SuperSonics)

[RogueBorg]

A lot is made about Hakeem's losing in the 1st round, yet not much is said about Kareem not winning without Top 10 tier players in his career like Magic and Oscar. Kareem played alongside guys like Magic, Oscar, Nixon, Worthy, Dandridge, Wilkes, Goodrich, etc. He missed the playoffs in his peak playing alongside Goodrich, finishing with a losing record (40-42).

No context is given to the demise of Hakeem's franchise, losing a would be dynasty to cocaine addictions and the injury to Ralph Sampson.

Another thing that people leave out is the fact that Kareem played in one of fastest paced eras in league history. The league pace during Kareem's peak/prime hovered around 105-107, whereas for Hakeem's, it was anywhere from 91-102, with the majority of his years being in the 90s.

Take a look at Kareem and Hakeem's PER 100 numbers during their respective peaks/primes in the regular season and playoffs.


RS Kareem '70-'81: 30.6 PPG 15.3 RBPG 5.1 ASPG 1.4 STLS 4.0 BLKS .556% FG%

RS Hakeem '86-'96: 31.8 PPG 15.9 RBPG 3.6 ASPG 2.5 STLS 4.7 BLKS .514 FG%


Playoffs Kareem '70-'81: 33.9 PPG 15.8 RBPG 4.4 ASPG 1.3 STLS 3.6 BLKS .533 FG%

Playoffs Hakeem '86-'96: 35.1 PPG 14.5 RBPG 4.3 ASPG 2.1 STLS 4.5 BLKS .531 FG%


People need to put some respect on Hakeem's name. Most people will discuss Kareem as a top 3 player but Hakeem almost never draws any comparisons. But how far away, if at all away, was he from the likes of Kareem?

If Hakeem has modern medicine to keep Ralph Sampson healthy, Lucas, Wiggins, and Lloyd. Or if he plays alongside the likes of Bird, Isiah, or Kobe, for example, then what would the outcome of his career have been?

And despite all of the obstacles, he still went to 3 NBA finals, winning 2 of them and 2 Finals MVPs. He won Regular Season MVP, DPOY, and FMVP in a single year (1994).

When it comes right down to it everything you said in your post, you're not wrong. Unfortunately, the players are delt the hands they've been given, some get to play with all-time greats some don't, and we can't go on whatifs. At the end of the day we get to add up their accomplishments and pass out our awards. KAJ won 6 MVP's to Hakeem's 1. KAJ has 5 rings to Hakeem's 2. Kareem's the all-time leading scorer and Hakeem's not.
Had Sampson stayed healthy maybe they get more...but you could play that game forever, it reminds of all the time lines in Loki. Maybe if Len Bias or Reggie Lewis don't die the Rockets don't win any championships, or the Bulls don't get 6. But we can't go on any that, we can only go on what happened. Kareem has a more distinguished career than Hakeem.

[ImKobe]

I would take peak Hakeem over any C in history if we are talking peak value. The most complete C ever. GOAT tier on both ends.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/14fcad056bf24585d018ea8b4d05c833/tenor.gif?itemid=11513077

https://i.gifer.com/9fnD.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SpectacularAgonizingAmoeba-size_restricted.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/42/9e/ce429e31079877187cbd33d2ce2bacb1.gif

Basically a 7-foot Jordan with his footwork & the array of post moves he had.

[coastalmarker99]

A 38-39-year-old Kareem, over the course of ten straight H2H games against a 23-24-year-old Hakeem...averaged 32 ppg and on a .62.1 FG%. Included were three games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) It was so bad that the Rockets coach was ripped for allowing Hakeem to defend KAJ one-on-one. In fact, he moved Sampson as the primary defender on Kareem in the WCF's.

[coastalmarker99]

The reality is if a 39-year-old Kareem was owning Hakeem a peak Kareem, at 23-24 years old would have just annihilated any version of Hakeem.

[ScottieQuitting]

Hakeem > Lou Al Cinder

[coastalmarker99]

Hakeem > Lou Al Cinder

There is no argument one can make for that take I have to say.

As In the 3 games Hakeem defended Kareem in 1985-86 regular season, Kareem averaged 41 ppg on 67.5% fg against the Rockets. This was at age 39.

[coastalmarker99]

Worthy after the game in which Kareem dropped 46 on Hakeem "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career-high is 55) had he played any longer.



Still, for a 37 and 38-year-old Kareem to be just be crushing Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23-year-old Hakeem, too. Why is that important?



Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defence in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23-year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a prime Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

[RogueBorg]

There is no argument one can make for that take I have to say.

As In the 3 games Hakeem defended Kareem in 1985-86 regular season, Kareem averaged 41 ppg on 67.5% fg against the Rockets. This was at age 39.

Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr

[imdaman99]

Both part of the Muslim fam so I got love for them. Even though Hakeem blocked a chip in 94 for the Knicks :(

[coastalmarker99]

Both part of the Muslim fam so I got love for them. Even though Hakeem blocked a chip in 94 for the Knicks :(

Why don't you follow the Lord Jesus instead of a warlord pedophile who married a 6-year-old girl.

The fact that Jesus in Islam was a dozen times more peaceful than Muhammad but Muhammad is the highest prophet is just strange from my Christian POV. It seems like a matter of Allah's priorities and values. Warlord over a peaceful guy.

Paul in the New Testament used to be violent (he sought to kill Christians) but with him, he changed and became a man of peace.

Muhammad never experienced such a change after his revelation with Gabriel.

As for the Quran, I think it's a bit suspect that no one but him ever saw the angel Gabriel in his angel form. And because he received his revelations entirely in private, it is less trustworthy than the Bible IMO.

[coastalmarker99]

Both part of the Muslim fam so I got love for them. Even though Hakeem blocked a chip in 94 for the Knicks :(

There are only three things people need to know about Islam.

Islam claims that God forgave Adam and Eve, and denies the doctrine of Original Sin (Quran 2:37).

Islam claims that Jesus did not die on the cross, and denies the Crucifixion and Resurrection (Quran 4:157-158).

Islam says that all sources of spiritual guidance other than the Quran are corrupt and not to be trusted (Quran 2:79).

Who benefits most from denying that Christ died for mankind's salvation, denying that mankind even needs salvation, and impugning all statements to the contrary as lies?

Hint: His name starts with "S" and rhymes with "Dayton".

[FKAri]

There are only three things people need to know about Islam.

Islam claims that God forgave Adam and Eve, and denies the doctrine of Original Sin (Quran 2:37).

Islam claims that Jesus did not die on the cross, and denies the Crucifixion and Resurrection (Quran 4:157-158).

Islam says that all sources of spiritual guidance other than the Quran are corrupt and not to be trusted (Quran 2:79).

Who benefits most from denying that Christ died for mankind's salvation, denying that mankind even needs salvation, and impugning all statements to the contrary as lies?

Hint: His name starts with "S" and rhymes with "Dayton".

They believe Jesus was raptured instead of dying on the cross. They also believe in his second coming.

[HoopsNY]

How did this thread turn into a religious debate? :wtf:

[SouBeachTalents]

How fcking deranged do you have to be to actually type all that shit out, on a basketball forum, in response to imdaman's innocuous post :lol

https://i.gifer.com/1Jj9.gif

[ClipperRevival]

No one talks about how underwhelming KAJ was in the 1970's. He had very little playoff success from 1971 (his sole ring outside Magic) and 1980 (first ring with Magic). In a vacuum, maybe he had the slight edge over Hakeem. But KAJ wasn't a good leader. He didn't galvanize guys. It's very plausible he only ends up with 1 ring if Magic doesn't come along.

How many chips would Hakeem have if he played with Showtime in the 1980's?

[ClipperRevival]

Worthy after the game in which Kareem dropped 46 on Hakeem "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career-high is 55) had he played any longer.



Still, for a 37 and 38-year-old Kareem to be just be crushing Hakeem whose numbers were not far from his peak in those years (and his shooting even better) just says it all. His 46 point game came against a 23-year-old Hakeem, too. Why is that important?



Because a Kareem at 23 was the league MVP, and a Finals MVP. Furthermore, Hakeem was voted first-team all-defence in the very next season (86-87), so clearly, if an over-the-hill Kareem could abuse a 23-year-old Hakeem...the assumption has to be that a prime Kareem would just have carpet-bombed a prime Hakeem.

Unfair comparison.

Hakeem started playing bball around 15. He was raw as hell when he first came in the league. Not nearly the dominant force he would become a decade later. So it's not an accurate reflection of how they would fare against each other with both at their best. What we do KNOW is Hakeem gave it to some of the best Cs ever when he entered his prime.

[HoopsNY]

No one talks about how underwhelming KAJ was in the 1970's. He had very little playoff success from 1971 (his sole ring outside Magic) and 1980 (first ring with Magic). In a vacuum, maybe he had the slight edge over Hakeem. But KAJ wasn't a good leader. He didn't galvanize guys. It's very plausible he only ends up with 1 ring if Magic doesn't come along.

How many chips would Hakeem have if he played with Showtime in the 1980's?

Correct. As I mentioned before, give Hakeem an Oscar, Isiah, or even a healthy Rockets would be dynasty and his 3 finals trips and 2 rings potentially becomes 4-5 rings and 5-6 finals trips, easily.

[HoopsNY]

Unfair comparison.

Hakeem started playing bball around 15. He was raw as hell when he first came in the league. Not nearly the dominant force he would become a decade later. So it's not an accurate reflection of how they would fare against each other with both at their best. What we do KNOW is Hakeem gave it to some of the best Cs ever when he entered his prime.

Not to mention, Hakeem put up 31/11/2/2/4 on 52% in the WCF against LAL. No mention of that here, only a few regular season games, I wonder why.

[ImKobe]

The reality is if a 39-year-old Kareem was owning Hakeem a peak Kareem, at 23-24 years old would have just annihilated any version of Hakeem.

Hakeem was not at his peak in his 2nd-4th seasons.. cmon. Even then, a 23 y.o Hakeem put up 31/11 2.2 stls 4 blocks 52%FG/58.4%TS on Kareem as the Rockets beat the Lakers in 5 in the '86 WCF.

[ClipperRevival]

Correct. As I mentioned before, give Hakeem an Oscar, Isiah, or even a healthy Rockets would be dynasty and his 3 finals trips and 2 rings potentially becomes 4-5 rings and 5-6 finals trips, easily.

Not to mention, the level of comp he faced. Arguably the GOAT era for bigs in Shaq, DRob, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and in the 1980's, KAJ and Moses.

[FKAri]

The reality is if a 39-year-old Kareem was owning Hakeem a peak Kareem, at 23-24 years old would have just annihilated any version of Hakeem.

Hakeem was a physical freak that was very green vs a GOAT candidate who knew all the tricks. The man only learned basketball in his later teenage years. It took Hakeem years to develop his skills and savvy. And he made up a ton of progress in that department.

[RogueBorg]

and in the 1980's, KAJ and Moses.

No love for Paul Mokeski?

[tpols]

Kareem didn't make his teammates better and was less prolific. Id take Hakeem over him.