Bill Russell play making skills as a player get overrated

[coastalmarker99]

Here are Russell's offensive stats in all of the games we have footage of him.


Lakers @ Celtics 1962 finals game 7 -part game

4FGA
3FTA
1AST
3TOV


Celtics @ Lakers finals game 6-full game

11FGA
5FTA
7 assists
4TOV


Celtics @ Warriors 1964 finals game 4- second half only.

3FGA
1FTA
1AST


Lakers @ Celtics 1965 finals game 1 -a quarter of the game

2FGA
2FTA
3AST


Celtics @ Royals 1966 EDSF game 4 second half.

2FGA
2FTA
1AST
2TOV


Lakers @ Celtics 1966 finals game 7 part game.

4FGA
1AST
3TOV


76ers @ Celtics 1967 ECF game 4 - second half only

5FGA

5FTA

2AST

1TOV


Celtics @ Knicks 1969 ECF game 1-full game

9FGA

3FTA

7AST

4TOV


Celtics @ Lakers 1969 Finals game 7- fourth quarter only

3FGA

1AST

1TOV



Total AST/TOV Ratio: 24 AST/18 TOV=1.33

100* 18/(43+0.44 * 21+18) =25.6 TOV%

[coastalmarker99]

You will notice when watching the footage we have available of Russell that he barely gets the ball and when he gets it he turns it over a lot And most are live-ball turnovers.

[coastalmarker99]

It's funny to look at how hard Cousy drops off when Russell joins full time in '58, then look at how much better Havlicek gets when Russell leaves.


Russell's poor offensive game was tanking efficiency for the team's scorers lol

[And1AllDay]

It's funny to look at how hard Cousy drops off when Russell joins full time in '58, then look at how much better Havlicek gets when Russell leaves.


Russell's poor offensive game was tanking efficiency for the team's scorers lol

sounds like mike with pippen and armstrong

[coastalmarker99]

Cousy made Russell more efficient when they played together as teammates.

But when he retired Russell had to basically be a facilitator that just handed the ball off.




That was the only way to use him on offence cause isn't a threat at all without Cousy to better utilize Russell's athleticism.



Also the Celtics FTr drops with Russell's on the floor which means it was harder to get to the rim therefore the Celtic players shot outside more.

[coastalmarker99]

The very best way I saw Russell utilized offensively in the footage we have of him was pulling his defender away from the rim to create space it didn't happen often but it was very effective when it occurred on Offence for the Celtics.

[coastalmarker99]

If you are wondering why Russell's FG percent is so high for the 5 five years of his career compared to the rest of it you will notice on offence that Cousy gave him a lot of baskets too.




Lots of the film we have of the early 1960's Celtics shows Cousy lobbing and setting up Russell around the rim or on fastbreaks.

[72-10]

Bill Russell thinks the game is mostly about buckets. He denied people a lot of buckets, but you'd think he'd stick to his motto a bit more.

[warriorfan]

Nice op. You’ve been doing good work. I’ve enjoyed a lot of your threads.

[coastalmarker99]

Nice op. You’ve been doing good work. I’ve enjoyed a lot of your threads.


Thank you that means a lot to me :cheers:

[coastalmarker99]

Nice op. You’ve been doing good work. I’ve enjoyed a lot of your threads.

The more footage I get of Wilt the more i think him of as a Goat player that would have dominated in any era you put him in.


While the footage I get of Russell shows a player that could have seriously struggled in later eras of the game such as the 1990s.


As his offensive game was seriously WOAT for a center.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nice op. You’ve been doing good work. I’ve enjoyed a lot of your threads.

Seconded.

One of the few posters making consistent and quality threads. Not centered around Bron either.

Keep em coming! The rare footage as well :applause:

[coastalmarker99]

Seconded.

One of the few posters making consistent and quality threads. Not centered around Bron either.

Keep em coming! The rare footage as well :applause:


Well, I am getting footage of Wilt's 45 and 27 rebound game in game 6 in of the 1970 finals today so I am happy about that.


Also, I am getting full footage of game seven of the 1969 finals as well.

[warriorfan]

Thank you that means a lot to me :cheers:
No problem brother. :cheers:


The more footage I get of Wilt the more i think him of as a Goat player that would have dominated in any era you put him in.


While the footage I get of Russell shows a player that could have seriously struggled in later eras of the game such as the 1990s.


As his offensive game was seriously WOAT for a center.

Since the lack of footage I haven’t really been able to see a lot of Russell. It’s mainly off statistics and second hand accounts. I’ve heard from people he was a good passer and people have tried to portray him as some guy dropping dimes out of the high post. It looks like that may not be the case. Anyways keep it up. I’ve always enjoyed learning about the previous eras. I’ve watched a lot of old classic games on NBA TV and online. It’s always fun.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

We don't have usage for that era but I'd imagine his was incredibly low like 18-20's during a lot of the years. He was basically playing a deandre ayton role, while cousy was Chris Paul and Havlicek was Devin Booker. Definitely not a goat level player.

Hybrid of ayton/draymond green with Kevin Garnett athleticism.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Well, I am getting footage of Wilt's 45 and 27 rebound game in game 6 in of the 1970 finals today so I am happy about that.


Also, I am getting full footage of game seven of the 1969 finals as well.

Nice, look forward to it man.

Quality from G4 of the 70 finals was outstanding. Cleaner clarity than many of the 80s and 90s games I've watched.

[coastalmarker99]

No problem brother. :cheers:



Since the lack of footage I haven’t really been able to see a lot of Russell. It’s mainly off statistics and second hand accounts. I’ve heard from people he was a good passer and people have tried to portray him as some guy dropping dimes out of the high post. It looks like that may not be the case. Anyways keep it up. I’ve always enjoyed learning about the previous eras. I’ve watched a lot of old classic games on NBA TV and online. It’s always fun.


Wilt was more of an effective playmaker when he wanted to be than Russell was.


Wilt has some of the most disgusting passes you will ever see by a center and I am going to make a video one day showing Wilt's best dimes such as his no-look passes and his famous one-handed behind the back pass to a cutter in the post.

[coastalmarker99]

Nice, look forward to it man.

Quality from G4 of the 70 finals was outstanding. Cleaner clarity than many of the 80s and 90s games I've watched.


A lot of stuff from that era has been fully remastered and I am getting a ton of 67 Wilt footage in the near future in which he was dropping triple-doubles and quadruple doubles non stop both in the regular season and playoffs.

[coastalmarker99]

The best way to describe 1967 Wilt and how good he was that season was that he was basically a mix of Jokic and Shaq with better athleticism that entire season.

[hiphopanonymous]

Not looking at stats or anything just going by my own feel and understanding of the game but Russell to me is not an overrated offensive player if anything I'd think he's underrated at it unless the person talking about him is a Bill Simmons book fan.

Bill Russell isn't a good jump shooter, but he seems to be an aggressive and good finisher, and has a pretty good feel for when to be in a play - or more importantly, out of one. He's got a good sense of both, he pick and rolls sometimes, gets involved in triangles, and sometimes just posts up. Can pass or finish in these situations and additionally he's pretty good in transition finishing or passing as well which most centers definitely can't say the same. His worst offensive quality by far is his complete lack of a serviceable jump shot, it limits his options when he's "face-up" to strictly driving (which he's actually really good at driving) or passing. He's a double-threat face-up not a triple-threat.

Wilt was a much more effective and dominant offensive player hands-down. But sometimes I watch Wilt and see that where he plays best (low-post) his teams offense can become unbalanced - to no fault of his own necessarily it's just that he's a low post dominator. Russell, since he wasn't so dominant in the low post it didn't maladjust his team whether he was or wasn't down low. His team would shoot at a clip of about 45% with him there, or without him there. Where as Wilt in the paint he alone hits 50-60% while his teammates now can't get into the paint and possibly even get cold outside if they lack touches if it's worked inside too much, and when he's out of there he basically can't shoot because he doesn't even drive unlike Russell he's basically just a screen setter and a passer from the high post or further. He's shot face-up jumpers or driven from beyond 15 feet on tape only in extremely rare situations from what I've seen.

This tremendous gravity ala Shaq (could also be called warping if assembled on the wrong team) of offense makes Wilt a polarizing player to have on your team if the coach or personnel don't buy into making him the main piece to build around. He'll get the ball and perform miracles with it most of the time. But everyone else's game can somewhat suffer if there is overlap in the use of the paint. This happened with his iconic clash with Baylor who needed cleared paint for his epic downhill drives. They of course both worked together to the best of their ability but not without some ideological rifts along the way. Wilt basically had to adjust once he got to the Lakers to be a part-time post-up player instead of what he previously was, a full-time post up player. He still did exactly what he used to when he got in the post he just basically took turns with Baylor sharing that space, he'd go out to high post or further out towards a left or right wing to give Baylor some space every other possession so that Baylor could have some looks to drive better. Problem is, he's not even a double-threat out there. He's a single-threat. He'll just pass it if he gets it that far out which is a team underutilization of his ability. He's a weapon within 10-15 feet. He's a strict passer beyond that. Russell was way way less dominant anywhere on the floor including the paint but more versatile if he drifted out and less likely distort his team if he goes in or out if that makes sense. It's not a knock on Wilt - or a diss on Russell as good coaches and teams should do their best to work with tools of their players. It just is an observation I've had.

[j3lademaster]

Wilt was more of an effective playmaker when he wanted to be than Russell was.Then Russell literally had nothing on Wilt as a basketball player. Wilt seemed more dominant on the defensive end and on the boards as well. Averaged more rebounds and grabbed 55 against Russell himself.

[The Closer]

Not according to his teammates, Russell was the best passing big man ever behind Jokic

Bill Russell was a great passer, both in the half-court & full-court, and put up insane assist numbers for a center, especially in the playoffs (averaged >5 apg in the playoffs during 7 different seasons, far more times than any other center).

John Havlicek, in his 1977 autobiography, said the following about Russell's effect on Boston's offense when specifically discussing their first post-Russell season ('70):


"You couldn't begin to count the ways we missed [him]. People think about him in terms of defense and rebounding, but he had been the key to our offense. He made the best pass more than anyone I have ever played with. That mattered to people like Nelson, Howell, Siegfried, Sanders, and myself. None of us were one on one players ... Russell made us better offensive players. His ability as a passer, pick-setter, and general surmiser of offense has always been over-looked.”

[The Closer]

The best way to describe 1967 Wilt and how good he was that season was that he was basically a mix of Jokic and Shaq with better athleticism that entire season.

Was that the year he got carried to a championship by the great Hal Greer?

[ShawkFactory]

Well, I am getting footage of Wilt's 45 and 27 rebound game in game 6 in of the 1970 finals today so I am happy about that.


Also, I am getting full footage of game seven of the 1969 finals as well.

Definitely share that :applause:

[coastalmarker99]

Was that the year he got carried to a championship by the great Hal Greer?

How was Wilt get carried to a title in 67 when he averaged 21.7 PTS 29.1 REBS 9.0 ASTS 9.2 BLKS FG% 57.9 for that entire playoff run and was dropping countless triple-doubles and quadruple doubles on both Russell and Nate.

[coastalmarker99]

Was that the year he got carried to a championship by the great Hal Greer?

Here is where Wilt ranked in every stat for the 1967 playoffs.
Rebounds Per Game
1. Wilt Chamberlain * • PHI 29.1

Total Rebounds
1. Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 437


Blocks Per Game

1 Wilt Chamberlain 9.4


Total Blocks

1 Wilt Chamberlain 144


Total Points

3 Wilt Chamberlain 326


Points Per Game

7th Wilt Chamberlain 21.7


Total Assists
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 135

Assists Per Game

2 Wilt Chamberlain 9.0


Free Throw Attempts
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 160


Minutes Played
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 718


Minutes Per Game
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 47.9


Player Efficiency Rating
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 25.3

Win Shares
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 3.8

Offensive Win Shares
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 1.8

Defensive Win Shares
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI 2.0

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1.Wilt Chamberlain* • PHI




I will wait for your response the closer to my post as I am deeply interested to see how you can spin this into Wilt being carried to a title by Greer.

[The Closer]

1967 finals leading scorers

Greer 26ppg
Chet 23 ppg
Jones 20 ppg
Cunningham 20 ppg
Wilt 17 ppg

5th option on his team :oldlol:,

and people say Wilt had no help:facepalm

[coastalmarker99]

1967 finals leading scorers

Greer 26ppg
Chet 23 ppg
Jones 20 ppg
Cunningham 20 ppg
Wilt 17 ppg

5th option on his team :oldlol:

You have clearly thrown in the towel as you have no more serious arguments to use.

[The Closer]

You have clearly thrown in the towel as you have no more serious arguments to use.
Wilt was the 5th option on his own team in the finals.

He could never win as "The Man" even Russell was able to win as well the number 1 option

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was the 5th option on his own team in the finals.

He could never win as "The Man" even Russell was able to win as well the number 1 option

Here are the stats about Wilt's 1967 finals if you are interested in it.



GAME 1 16 PTS 33 REBS 10 ASTS 9 BLKS

GAME 2 10 PTS 38 REBS 10 ASTS 10 BLKS

GAME 3 26 PTS 26 REBS 5 ASTS 8 BLKS

GAME 4 10 PTS 27 REBS 8 ASTS 15 BLKS

GAME 5 20 PTS 24 REBS 4 ASTS 13 BLKS

GAME 6 24 PTS 23 REBS 4 ASTS 6 BLKS

NBA FINALS AVERAGE 17.6 PTS 28.5 REBS 6.8 ASTS 10.1 BLKS

[The Closer]

Two 10 point games, Yikes :roll:

5th option Wilt!