Giannis Antentokoumpou vs Kawhi Leonard

[Lebron23]

I think Giannis officially surpassed Kawhi if he wins his first finals MVP this year. He already scored more points than him in the regular season. And also a 2x NBA MVP.

[basketballcat]

I think Giannis officially surpassed Kawhi if he wins his first finals MVP this year. He already scored more points than him in the regular season. And also a 2x NBA MVP.

Kawhi has two Finals MVP, Giannis would have one. Kawhi has two DPOYs, Giannis has one. Kawhi is way more of a complete player than Giannis; who can't even shoot well. Kawhi beat him in a direct playoff matchup. Kawhi had his first ring at 24. Giannis is already 26. Kawhi is one of only three players who won Finals MVP on different franchises. The others being Lebron and Kareem. No comparison there.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Backdoor swept him when they played and guarded him. Have you seen the numbers from giannis and bucks offense when kawhi guarded him? It was embarrassing to say the least.

This title does put Giannis over LeBron though in my opinion. Doesn't have superstars like wade, Irving, davis

[SATAN]

Leonard more skilled but I wouldn't want him on my team.

[Manny98]

KD > Giannis > LeFossil > Kawhi

[hold this L]

Kawhi has two Finals MVP, Giannis would have one. Kawhi has two DPOYs, Giannis has one. Kawhi is way more of a complete player than Giannis; who can't even shoot well. Kawhi beat him in a direct playoff matchup. Kawhi had his first ring at 24. Giannis is already 26. Kawhi is one of only three players who won Finals MVP on different franchises. The others being Lebron and Kareem. No comparison there.
Aww, HBrick made a new account :lol

[Doomsday Dallas]

starting after 1980


1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Curry
10. Leonard

11. Giannis

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Aww, HBrick made a new account :lol

Not me but it's nice to see another poster who actually has a brain

[basketballcat]

Does this year's ring even count as much? Whoever wins, had a pass on Kawhi, Durant's crew, and the Lakers. Without the injury, this year could have been Kawhi's. He was the best player in the playoffs (as per PER, win shares, WS/48 min, VORP, box +/-) at the point of injury. Ty Lue has proven himself to be superior to Doc Rivers. All that without Ibaka. With Ibaka, they would have been a co-favourite with the Nets' full squad.

[basketballcat]

starting after 1980


1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Curry
10. Leonard

11. Giannis

Curry hasn't won a Finals MVP. He couldn't even make this year's playoffs. In comparison, Trae Young took his team to the Conference Finals. Missed the playoffs twice in a row now.

Shaq over Duncan? Duncan has one more ring and way more defensive team selections. 2003 was one of the most alpha rings ever where Duncan, with no All Star teammates, beat both prime Shaq and prime Kobe. Duncan has the all time playoff record on double-doubles and blocks.

For me, the best quick metric for all time rankings is playoff win shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

Not a terrible ranking for just one aggregate metric.
1. LeBron James 55.68
2. Michael Jordan* 39.76
3. Tim Duncan* 37.84
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
5. Magic Johnson* 32.63
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
7. Shaquille O'Neal* 31.08
8. Kobe Bryant* 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Kevin Durant 25.25
13. Larry Bird* 24.83
14. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.13
16. Karl Malone* 22.99
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22

[Doomsday Dallas]

Curry hasn't won a Finals MVP. He couldn't even make this year's playoffs. In comparison, Trae Young took his team to the Conference Finals. Missed the playoffs twice in a row now.

Shaq over Duncan? Duncan has one more ring and way more defensive team selections. 2003 was one of the most alpha rings ever where Duncan, with no All Star teammates, beat both prime Shaq and prime Kobe. Duncan has the all time playoff record on double-doubles and blocks.

For me, the best quick metric for all time rankings is playoff win shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

Not a terrible ranking for just one aggregate metric.
1. LeBron James 55.68
2. Michael Jordan* 39.76
3. Tim Duncan* 37.84
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
5. Magic Johnson* 32.63
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
7. Shaquille O'Neal* 31.08
8. Kobe Bryant* 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Kevin Durant 25.25
13. Larry Bird* 24.83
14. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.13
16. Karl Malone* 22.99
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22


I do my rankings differently, always post 1980.

I don't give a $hit about who played before I was alive.

SG: Jordan(1) Kobe(6)
PG: Magic (2) Curry (9)
C: Shaq (3) Hakkem (8)
SF: Lebron (4) Leonard (10)
PF: Duncan (5) Bird (8)

Bench: Giannis

[KingMambaFan]

Does this year's ring even count as much? Whoever wins, had a pass on Kawhi, Durant's crew, and the Lakers. Without the injury, this year could have been Kawhi's. He was the best player in the playoffs (as per PER, win shares, WS/48 min, VORP, box +/-) at the point of injury. Ty Lue has proven himself to be superior to Doc Rivers. All that without Ibaka. With Ibaka, they would have been a co-favourite with the Nets' full squad.
Stfu any rings count and you don’t get to decide what’s valid or legit

[basketballcat]

Stfu any rings count and you don’t get to decide what’s valid or legit
Does Gatlin's gold medal in the 2004 Olympics 100m "count" as much as Bolt's gold medal in the 2008 Olympics 100m? Just because they are both gold doesn't mean that it's the same magnitude of achievement. Apply the same principle to basketball.

[RRR3]

Curry hasn't won a Finals MVP. He couldn't even make this year's playoffs. In comparison, Trae Young took his team to the Conference Finals. Missed the playoffs twice in a row now.

Shaq over Duncan? Duncan has one more ring and way more defensive team selections. 2003 was one of the most alpha rings ever where Duncan, with no All Star teammates, beat both prime Shaq and prime Kobe. Duncan has the all time playoff record on double-doubles and blocks.

For me, the best quick metric for all time rankings is playoff win shares.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

Not a terrible ranking for just one aggregate metric.
1. LeBron James 55.68
2. Michael Jordan* 39.76
3. Tim Duncan* 37.84
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
5. Magic Johnson* 32.63
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
7. Shaquille O'Neal* 31.08
8. Kobe Bryant* 28.26
9. Bill Russell* 27.76
10. Julius Erving* 26.89
11. Jerry West* 26.75
12. Kevin Durant 25.25
13. Larry Bird* 24.83
14. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
15. Dirk Nowitzki 23.13
16. Karl Malone* 22.99
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22
Curry made the playoffs, Silver just arbitrarily changed the rules.

[ShawkFactory]

starting after 1980


1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Curry
10. Leonard

11. Giannis

KD was on the same team as Curry and was the best overall player.

He also outplayed Giannis in a 7 game series a month ago.

[KingMambaFan]

Does Gatlin's gold medal in the 2004 Olympics 100m "count" as much as Bolt's gold medal in the 2008 Olympics 100m? Just because they are both gold doesn't mean that it's the same magnitude of achievement. Apply the same principle to basketball.

sheeeeeeeeeeessh

[RRR3]

KD was on the same team as Curry and was the best overall player.

He also outplayed Giannis in a 7 game series a month ago.
KD hasn’t been better than Curry since 2014.

[basketballcat]

KD hasn’t been better than Curry since 2014.

Curry hasn't even made the playoff the past two years. If Durant didn't step on the three point line against the Bucks in game 7, he would be in this year's Finals. Huge difference.

[RRR3]

Curry hasn't even made the playoff the past two years. If Durant didn't step on the three point line against the Bucks in game 7, he would be in this year's Finals. Huge difference.
I don’t care. Durant hasn’t played on a team that would be below .500 without him in over a decade. Curry is getting blamed for failing to make salad out of shit, basically. His best teammate is mostly a defensive guy who has minimal offensive talent. Don’t get me wrong Draymond is still good but he’s not second best player on a title team good at all and he’s gotten way worse at offense than he was in his prime. Not sure why were blaming Curry for not making the playoffs in a season he played like 5 games btw.

[Doomsday Dallas]

starting after 1980


1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Shaq
4. Lebron
5. Duncan
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Curry
10. Leonard

11. Giannis


I'll put KD at #11 for now...

but Giannis takes that spot after he wins his first ring.

I should give KD a little credit for his OKC days.




Lebron gets zero credit for his 2 rings in Miami, none. That super team bull$hit gets no love in my book.

but he does get credit for getting a ring in LA and getting Cleveland to the Finals 5 times... but not as much credit as some of you guys give him.




toss up between Kobe and Bird.




I almost want to put Shaq at #2, surprising he didn't end up with more rings, he's the most dominating player the league has ever seen.

15-1 playoff record in 2001 scores him extra points in the rankings... also he took down Jordan.

getting swept the times that he did loses him some points though.

[Pointguard]

Kawhi has two Finals MVP, Giannis would have one. Kawhi has two DPOYs, Giannis has one. Kawhi is way more of a complete player than Giannis; who can't even shoot well. Kawhi beat him in a direct playoff matchup. Kawhi had his first ring at 24. Giannis is already 26. Kawhi is one of only three players who won Finals MVP on different franchises. The others being Lebron and Kareem. No comparison there.

Kahwi isn't a more complete player because he's never come close to playing a complete season. He's undependable for sure. And he was never consistent from one year to the next, except with DNP's. His best years were when you weren't expecting it. You can't say teams strategize to stop him all year because he's never played a close to a full year. He joined a solid Toronto team and they lost more with him. Giannis can play more positions than Kawhi. This isn't a conversation if Giannis played on the top teams in the west and east without him. Imagine Giannis being on a team where he obviously wasn't the best player on his team and won the FMVP while avering only 14 ppg that year. Kawhi has major asterisk in his accomplishments. He's always near being the best but you would never say its clear cut because of these flaws. He's a top two way player for years but Giannis is his comparator. Giannis will score more and have a bigger defensive presence while playing 15 to 20 more games a year. Giannis will definitely score more, rebound more, get more assis, block more shots. and his team will have more wins. Kawhi gotta play more, and be more consistent carry a team for a year or the comparisons aren't fair to Giannis. Kawhi has been a precious spot filler but never was the franchise or a dominant player for a whole year yet.??? He's like 10 years deep.

Kawhi shoots better than Giannis, who doesn't, but doesn't score more. And Kawhi isn't as efficient overall despite being on better teams. He isn't the leader Giannis is either. What I like about both of the them is that they both came into the league raw projects and improved in all areas. In fact, as much as any of the greats. I wish them both well. To me Giannis is a bit better.

[ImKobe]

The Giannis we saw against peak Kawhi in '19 did not have a consistent mid-range J nor a consistent post move. He's improved a ton since then. Now you can wall off against him but he's better at finding open teammates and he can back anyone down and shoot a hook shot or a fadeaway J and make them at around 45-50% rate which is good enough.

Kawhi was better in 2019 but Giannis has caught up to him.

[Bronbron23]

I think Giannis officially surpassed Kawhi if he wins his first finals MVP this year. He already scored more points than him in the regular season. And also a 2x NBA MVP.

Nah man he will pass kawhi soon but it won't be this year. Kawhi has 1 more ring and fmvp plus when they recently matched up in the post season kawhi owned him

[k0kakw0rld]

I think Giannis officially surpassed Kawhi if he wins his first finals MVP this year. He already scored more points than him in the regular season. And also a 2x NBA MVP.
What does that have to do with anything? You are an idiot bro. I got something for you don't worry. Don't be crying like a moron I warned you.

[StrongLurk]

Just stop, OP. Jesus Christ why is the NBA fanbase the dumbest of all the major sports?

Kawhi is currently AND all-time better than Giannis, and this is coming from someone who likes Giannis as a person a lot more than Kawhi.

[basketballcat]

Kahwi isn't a more complete player because he's never come close to playing a complete season.
Kawhi: "There’s 82 games and for me these are just practices and playoffs is when it’s time to lace them up." You can't force him to cater to your idea of a "complete player". Clearly, he's a more of a playoffs player than a regular season player. You take too much stock of Giannis' regular season achievements (e.g. MVPs). Those are Steve Nash type achievements. Where does he lie all time?


He joined a solid Toronto team and they lost more with him. Giannis can play more positions than Kawhi.
It's hilarious how winning their first and only championship is "losing more". That "solid Toronto team" didn't make the Finals for years. Kawhi was the clear difference maker. That's why he got Finals MVP. We all remember that game 7 shot against Philly, but do you remember his game 5 heroics? Kawhi's impact is even more apparent on the Milwaukee series. Also, what happened to the "solid" Raptors team after Kawhi left? What happened to the Spurs after Kawhi left? There is a reason why Kawhi holds so much sway when it comes to trades and forming teams.

Kawhi is one of only three players who won finals MVP on different teams. That, along with two DPOYs, gets him a case on the all time top 10.

Even this year, Kawhi was better than Giannis just before his injury. He was at the top, or near the top on all advanced metrics (PER, VORP, WS, WS/48, box +/-). Only Durant came within a sniff of him.

Kawhi beat prime (MVP) Giannis in a direct playoffs matchup. Kawhi is a playoffs beast. Giannis has wilted time and time again in the playoffs. The only reason that he looks good this Finals is that he is up against an equally lucky Suns. He is up against Ayton, for fvck's sake. Not AD. Not Embiid. Not Adebayo. Not Ibaka. Nah, he's getting his points against somebody who made it to the playoffs for the first time and is averaging just a block per game in the playoffs. Big whoop.

Giannis gets a double asterisk ring at 26. Had Durant not stepped on the three point line in game 7, bye bye Giannis. If Harden was healthy, bye bye Giannis. If Kawhi and Ibaka was healthy, bye bye Giannis.

Kawhi had one by having his coming out party at 24 against Lebron. Even a 26 year old Kawhi might be better than Giannis thus far.

[basketballcat]

And Kawhi isn't as efficient overall
Wait, wut? Giannis' most efficient playoff run was last year, with a PER of 31.3 at age 25. At age 25, Kawhi had a more efficient playoff run of PER 31.5. Kawhi's playoff PER at Toronto was at 27.9. Giannis' current asterisk run is at PER 26.8.

Giannis this year* vs Kawhi on the Raptors in the playoffs
PER: 26.8 vs 27.9 (Kawhi)
VORP: 2.2 vs 2.9 (Kawhi, 8th all time single season)
box +/-: 9.4 vs 10.1 (Kawhi)
win shares: 3.3 vs 4.9 (Kawhi, 6th all time single season)

Literally almost all evidence points to a far superior Kawhi run in 2019. There are just so many ways that Kawhi outshines "Mr. regular season" Giannis. Kawhi had one of the most alpha rings ever in 2019.

[AirBonner]

Giannis’s organic ring is much more impressive than Kawhi’s team-hopped 2019 Raptors ring

[tanibanana]

“job is not yet done”

Not until Giannis becomes a champion; Leonard > Giannis.
But in terms of trajectory, Giannis will surpass Leonard whatever happens in the next two games.
Giannis career is literally just at 1/3 so far.. He’ll still play the next 9-12 years.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Would be close.

I think a healthy Kawhi is still the better player. Problem is that he's never healthy. Giannis' resume might look 'greater' with a Finals MVP.

[kawhileonard2]

I think Giannis officially surpassed Kawhi if he wins his first finals MVP this year. He already scored more points than him in the regular season. And also a 2x NBA MVP.

Giannis would pass Lebron for sure. He would have done it for the franchise that drafted him without leaving.

[Pointguard]

Kawhi: "There’s 82 games and for me these are just practices and playoffs is when it’s time to lace them up." You can't force him to cater to your idea of a "complete player". Clearly, he's a more of a playoffs player than a regular season player. You take too much stock of Giannis' regular season achievements (e.g. MVPs). Those are Steve Nash type achievements. Where does he lie all time?

Its not like its optional. He can't do it. BIIIIG difference.



It's hilarious how winning their first and only championship is "losing more". That "solid Toronto team" didn't make the Finals for years. Kawhi was the clear difference maker. That's why he got Finals MVP. We all remember that game 7 shot against Philly, but do you remember his game 5 heroics? Kawhi's impact is even more apparent on the Milwaukee series. Also, what happened to the "solid" Raptors team after Kawhi left? What happened to the Spurs after Kawhi left? There is a reason why Kawhi holds so much sway when it comes to trades and forming teams.
Great dance around they had a better record the year before he came. They had the best record in the Eastern Conference the year before Kawhi came. They only had problems with Lebron. It still took them a last second shot to be better than the previous year against an inferior team. Most superstars can go to a top team and take them over the hump. Especially when you didn't play that much in the regular season. He was suppose to do that. Giannis built his team. If he was put on the best team on the East - they would sweep thru the playoffs. He wouldn't need heroics.


Kawhi is one of only three players who won finals MVP on different teams. That, along with two DPOYs, gets him a case on the all time top 10.
Huh??? Was that a joke? Bird in his prime didn't get a final's MVP over Cedric Maxwell, a true scrub that won't be anybody's list of very good players, much less great.
Kawhi won the SA one because Timmy had a subpar series (measuring against himself) but was easily their best player in the playoffs. But Kawhi had guarded Lebron. It is impressive what Kawhi has done but that and two defensive players of the year doesn't make you top ten.




Even this year, Kawhi was better than Giannis just before his injury. He was at the top, or near the top on all advanced metrics (PER, VORP, WS, WS/48, box +/-). Only Durant came within a sniff of him.

Kawhi beat prime (MVP) Giannis in a direct playoffs matchup. Kawhi is a playoffs beast. Giannis has wilted time and time again in the playoffs. The only reason that he looks good this Finals is that he is up against an equally lucky Suns. He is up against Ayton, for fvck's sake. Not AD. Not Embiid. Not Adebayo. Not Ibaka. Nah, he's getting his points against somebody who made it to the playoffs for the first time and is averaging just a block per game in the playoffs. Big whoop.
You don't pick your opponents. But its a alot easier when you are on the top teams in the league without you. Giannis has handled Embid. He's handled Adebayo. AD, well he's like Kawhi, misses a lot of games.



Giannis gets a double asterisk ring at 26. Had Durant not stepped on the three point line in game 7, bye bye Giannis. If Harden was healthy, bye bye Giannis. If Kawhi and Ibaka was healthy, bye bye Giannis.
With Kawhi and AD you can't say if they were healthy - its part of the package at ten years of proof.


Kawhi had one by having his coming out party at 24 against Lebron. Even a 26 year old Kawhi might be better than Giannis thus far.
Its a complete embarrassment to compare them at 24 years of age but since you asked for it:
Kawhi had his biggest production year of his career with 21.2 ppg, 6.8 rebs, 2.6 assist, 26 PER Giannis 27.7ppg, 12.5 rebs, 5.9 assist, 30.9 PER

In the playoffs its closer but still not equal at all.

[Pointguard]

Wait, wut? Giannis' most efficient playoff run was last year, with a PER of 31.3 at age 25. At age 25, Kawhi had a more efficient playoff run of PER 31.5. Kawhi's playoff PER at Toronto was at 27.9. Giannis' current asterisk run is at PER 26.8.

Giannis this year* vs Kawhi on the Raptors in the playoffs
PER: 26.8 vs 27.9 (Kawhi)
VORP: 2.2 vs 2.9 (Kawhi, 8th all time single season)
box +/-: 9.4 vs 10.1 (Kawhi)
win shares: 3.3 vs 4.9 (Kawhi, 6th all time single season)

Literally almost all evidence points to a far superior Kawhi run in 2019. There are just so many ways that Kawhi outshines "Mr. regular season" Giannis. Kawhi had one of the most alpha rings ever in 2019.

I said overall: Overall regular season career wise and overall playoffs he's more efficient.

[bobopenguin]

kawhi > Giannis.