If Jordan never existed would Malone be viewed as a top 5 or 10 player of alltime?

[coastalmarker99]

Karl Malone In an MJ less era would have

3 MVPS

2 rings

2 finals MVP'S

4 scoring titles

To go along with

14x All NBA

14x All-Star

4x all-defensive team

2nd all-time career points

7th all-time career rebounds.

[coastalmarker99]

In this hypothetical scenario, I seriously wonder how intense the Malone vs Duncan debate would be for the greatest PF of all-time spot.

[j3lademaster]

Absolutely. There are going to be people coming in saying “doesn’t make a difference because Barkley had a better peak and kg plays better def.” But most of those people are lying, 2 fmvp’s and 20 years worth of media narrative is huge. I think Duncan will ultimately still be viewed as better because of his 03 run, but plenty will argue Malone because he “beat up on Shaq in the playoffs”. Malone also retires in Utah since he doesn’t go ringchasing.

Of course this is with Malone winning in 97 and 98. I personally think the pacers beat them in 98.

[RogueBorg]

Absolutely. There are going to be people coming in saying “doesn’t make a difference because Barkley had a better peak and kg plays better def.” But most of those people are lying, 2 fmvp’s and 20 years worth of media narrative is huge. I think Duncan will ultimately still be viewed as better because of his 03 run, but plenty will argue Malone because he “beat up on Shaq in the playoffs”. Malone also retires in Utah since he doesn’t go ringchasing.

Of course this is with Malone winning in 97 and 98. I personally think the pacers beat them in 98.

2 weeks ago the Olympic Channel played all eight of the 1992 Dream Team's games. To me, what was crystal clear was Charles Barkley was head and shoulders better than Karl Malone. I was a little shocked because I don't remember there being that much disparity between the two.

[coastalmarker99]

2 weeks ago the Olympic Channel played all eight of the 1992 Dream Team's games. To me, what was crystal clear was Charles Barkley was head and shoulders better than Karl Malone. I was a little shocked because I don't remember there being that much disparity between the two.


Well I would say that prime Barkley was a monster and that he did have the better peak than Malone but Malone edges him out purely because of his longevity.

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing happened in the 20 years he played to suggest they automatically win the finals if Jordan isn’t there. You don’t just get gifted a ring. This is the same shit people said when Jordan retired. None of the people he’d supposedly blocked won when he wasn’t there. Hakeem won and then Duncan while Karl got worked by the Blazers, Rockets, and Sonics all those years.

Jordan not being there is just someone else they could lose to. What he can get beat by Sheed and Brian Grant but not Reggie/Rose/Smits or Zo/Tim?

Karl did nothing to deserve assuming he just wins rings for sure.

You just assume everyone wins if Jordan was in their way you could argue Ewing comes out with a similar career to Karl. He lost to Jordan in 91, 92, and 93 then made the finals in 94. He realistically could have 3 finals trips(not counting 99) without Jordan.

But we don’t just gift people success they would only have had a better chance at. I get asking what Birds career is without Magic. Maybe he’s got 5 rings and an ncaa title. But Bird proved he could do everything already. He earned the benefit. Karl?

Eh.

I can’t just assume Karl does anything different. I watched him lose to way worse people than Jordan.

[coastalmarker99]

Nothing happened in the 20 years he played to suggest they automatically win the finals if Jordan isn’t there. You don’t just get gifted a ring. This is the same shit people said when Jordan retired. None of the people he’d supposedly blocked won when he wasn’t there. Hakeem won and then Duncan while Karl got worked by the Blazers, Rockets, and Sonics all those years.

Jordan not being there is just someone else they could lose to. What he can get beat by Sheed and Brian Grant but not Reggie/Rose/Smits or Zo/Tim?

Karl did nothing to deserve assuming he just wins rings for sure.

You just assume everyone wins if Jordan was in their way you could argue Ewing comes out with a similar career to Karl. He lost to Jordan in 91, 92, and 93 then made the finals in 94. He realistically could have 3 finals trips(not counting 99) without Jordan.

But we don’t just gift people success they would only have had a better chance at. I get asking what Birds career is without Magic. Maybe he’s got 5 rings and an ncaa title. But Bird proved he could do everything already. He earned the benefit. Karl?

Eh.

I can’t just assume Karl does anything different. I watched him lose to way worse people than Jordan.

Utah would have been the massive favourite by vegas and others to win against the Heat in 97 and likewise against the Pacers in 1998 as they would have had HCA in both of those finals.

[Kblaze8855]

It was dubbed "The Last Dance" by the Chicago media last season. The Bulls' playoff waltz to a sixth NBA title proved to a be a memorable one. And it ended up being, as many Chicagoans feared, Michael Jordan's swan song and the end of the dynasty.But now that MJ is gone, the Utah Jazz -- the Bulls' final victim two years running -- have become the odds-on favorites to secure the title..


^
Entering the 99 playoffs. Vegas odds don’t matter on the floor when the league mvp is the 8th leading scorer in the game getting eliminated a couple weeks later.

[AirBonner]

Nah Malone had two years in his prime to win without MJ in his way

[And1AllDay]

Nothing happened in the 20 years he played to suggest they automatically win the finals if Jordan isn’t there. You don’t just get gifted a ring. This is the same shit people said when Jordan retired. None of the people he’d supposedly blocked won when he wasn’t there. Hakeem won and then Duncan while Karl got worked by the Blazers, Rockets, and Sonics all those years.

Jordan not being there is just someone else they could lose to. What he can get beat by Sheed and Brian Grant but not Reggie/Rose/Smits or Zo/Tim?

Karl did nothing to deserve assuming he just wins rings for sure.

You just assume everyone wins if Jordan was in their way you could argue Ewing comes out with a similar career to Karl. He lost to Jordan in 91, 92, and 93 then made the finals in 94. He realistically could have 3 finals trips(not counting 99) without Jordan.

But we don’t just gift people success they would only have had a better chance at. I get asking what Birds career is without Magic. Maybe he’s got 5 rings and an ncaa title. But Bird proved he could do everything already. He earned the benefit. Karl?

Eh.

I can’t just assume Karl does anything different. I watched him lose to way worse people than Jordan.

this


i go chuck or ewing maybe over karl in this scenarios

[j3lademaster]

2 weeks ago the Olympic Channel played all eight of the 1992 Dream Team's games. To me, what was crystal clear was Charles Barkley was head and shoulders better than Karl Malone. I was a little shocked because I don't remember there being that much disparity between the two.Barkley was definitely better peak vs peak.

[Phoenix]

I'm not sure he wins in 97 and 98. I could see the Pacers winning in 98, if anything it's a pick-em. If the Heat come of the east in 97 I'd favor the Jazz in that one.

[3ba11]

If Jordan had help in the 80's (more than Pippen), Magic and Bird wouldn't be top 10

[HoopsNY]

It's something to consider. The problem is that in 1994 and 1995, Malone and co. didn't make use of MJ's absence. Having said that, I do think they win in 1997, but not necessarily 1998. 1 title and 1 FMVP wouldn't have been enough to solidify his rank above Tim Duncan.

[TheCorporation]

The door was somewhat cracked open for him in 1994 and 1995 and 1999. I'm not saying the man needed to win those years but he didn't even come close.

1994: WCF loss
1995: 1st round loss
1999: WCSF loss

Even without losing to the Bulls he still had his struggles in across multiple times. I'm inclined to think Patrick Ewing or even Reggie Miller gets a bigger boost to their legacy if MJ isn't around, but even then, let's say Reggie or Patrick win 1 chip. Are they even top 30 then? No.

[baudkarma]

"If Jordan never existed" seems a little harsh. Let's go with something a little more believable from a historical standpoint. Pretend that MJ lost his bet in the original "Space Jam" and never returned to earth. That leaves 1997 and 1998 wide open.

The first problem is that those two years are the only seasons where the Jazz actually made it to the finals. It's not like the Jazz were making it to the finals regularly and getting thumped by the Bulls. They were finding creative ways to lose in the WC playoffs year after year. Malone had a long, productive career and he was remarkably healthy for virtually all of it. He played in 80+ RS games every season, save for the lockout season of '99 and his final season with the Lakers at the age of 40. He played with one of the ATG great point guards in John Stockton. Jerry Sloan was the HC for the Jazz for most of Malones career, and he's in the HOF as well. Mark Eaton played with Malone in the early part of his career, and Eaton in a 2-time DPOY. With all that support, 2 finals appearances seems pretty meager. Or if you want to look at it another way, Duncan has more Finals MVP awards than Karl has Finals appearances.

I also have a problem with the assumption that with MJ out of the way, the Jazz would have won the title in either or both of those years. Utah knew in both those series that the Bulls were the better team. They were able to play relaxed because there were no expectations. If Utah were to enter the Finals as the favorite, I don't think they could handle the pressure. Hell, if there's a clear path to the title they might not even make it to the Finals.

If Karl did win a ring or two, I'd put him in Kobe territory. 12-15 all time. Definitely not anywhere near Duncan, and Charles and Dirk might have something to say about that #2 PF position.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Absolutely not. Choker's gonna choke.

Just like Chris Paul, when spurs are not around he's choking to warriors and when warriors are not around he's choking to bucks.

Karl would just find another team to choke against.

Karl's playoff stats were generally underwhelming as well.

[Phoenix]

Absolutely not. Choker's gonna choke.



Indeed, a Kawhit fan would definitely know this. You're still reeling from Jokic jizzing all over him last year.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Indeed, a Kawhit fan would definitely know this. You're still reeling from Jokic jizzing all over him last year.

What? how am i reeling from that? I've been calling kawhi the goat ever since hahahaha.

Choker but he won 2 finals MVPS against Lebron\Curry? that's the opposite of a choker.

Who cares about the prison bubble with no fans, that's like butler bragging about beating giannis hahahah we all know giannis is still a 5x better player.

Even then, jokic still hasn't won shit and has 1 conference finals win in his entire career. The guy in your avatar is even worse and still hasn't got out of the 1st round, spending his entire career as Kawhi's bitch so far.

[Phoenix]

What? how am i reeling from that? I've been calling kawhi the goat ever since hahahaha.

Choker but he won 2 finals MVPS against Lebron\Curry? that's the opposite of a choker.

Who cares about the prison bubble with no fans, that's like butler bragging about beating giannis hahahah we all know giannis is still a 5x better player.

Even then, jokic still hasn't won shit and has 1 conference finals win in his entire career. The guy in your avatar is even worse and still hasn't got out of the 1st round, spending his entire career as Kawhi's bitch so far.

What a meltdown. Thanks for your time.

[ShawkFactory]

Even if Jordan didn’t exist 97 is the only year where you could realistically call him the best player in the league. I just don’t think he was quite good enough to have people consider him one of the 10 best to ever play

I think most would probably throw him that Moses, Jerry west, Dr J range. And that’s assuming they win back to back, which is absolutely no guarantee.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Its possible but so are many things but Malone could be top 10 ever over Hakeem if MJ doesnt stop him in the 97 and 98