If Middleton or Jrue wins 6 chips... top 30 all-time?

[3ba11]

I say no.. I say he'd be maybe top 100.. if we're looking objectively

Defense is a team effort - if you have better offense from one position, then you can seek cheaper defenders at other positions.. Individual defense simply doesn't matter when evaluating or comparing players - only team defense matters and that's the GM's job.. Put MJ and Middleton together along with a bunch of cheap defenders and it's OVER.

So again, where to rank Middleton if he wins 6?

[Bronbron23]

I say no.. I say he'd be maybe top 100.. if we're looking objectively

Defense is a team effort - if you have better offense from one position, then you can seek cheaper defenders at other positions.. Individual defense simply doesn't matter when evaluating or comparing players - only team defense matters and that's the GM's job.. Put MJ and Middleton together along with a bunch of cheap defenders and it's OVER.

So again, where to rank Middleton if he wins 6?

If greek was gone for a year and Middleton led the bucks to a great record and the playoffs while being a mvp candidate than yeah. That 93-94 season went a long way in legitimizing pips impact without mj.

[Phoenix]

When he does, we'll revisit the conversation. Till then, a pointless hypothetical when he's 1/6th of the way there.

[3ba11]

If greek was gone for a year and Middleton led the bucks to a great record and the playoffs while being a mvp candidate than yeah. That 93-94 season went a long way in legitimizing pips impact without mj.


55 wins isn't sufficient for top 30 because almost everyone has won 55 games... you're just lowering the bar for pippen to a really low level.. 55 wins isn't top 30 criteria

who hasn't won 55 games? KJ did better than that and made the WCF twice.

pippen was pursuing a 4-peat (best scenario ever) - the Bulls were nothing in 95' until MJ came back and carried them to another 3-peat

[3ba11]

When he does, we'll revisit the conversation. Till then, a pointless hypothetical when he's 1/6th of the way there.


So you think it's a legit conversation if he does.. so the "6 rings blinders" is a real thing.. wow

[HoopsNY]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 10x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting, then we can talk.

[MadDog]

He's already a better and more reliable scorer than Pippen. Defense (and playmaking) goes to Pippen but Middleton is a solid man defender as well. I don't see Milwuakee rattling off 6 rings though. Given the league's current landscape, Giannis & co might win 3 or 4. And with that its doubtful Middleton cracks top 30.

[Bronbron23]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 10x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting, then we can talk.

Sorry 3ball. I wouldn't normally agree with hoopsny but he's right on this one

[1987_Lakers]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 10x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting, then we can talk.

Ether.

[ImKobe]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 10x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting, then we can talk.

You act as if winning 55 games is some huge achievement, mediocre teams win 50-60 games like every other year due to a combination of luck (health, bunch of close wins) and great coaching.

[HoopsNY]

You act as if winning 55 games is some huge achievement, mediocre teams win 50-60 games like every other year due to a combination of luck (health, bunch of close wins) and great coaching.

Very true, but Jrue and Middleton haven't done it. Besides, that's just one piece of the puzzle to even approach drawing a comparison.

[HoopsNY]

Sorry 3ball. I wouldn't normally agree with hoopsny but he's right on this one

We usually agree on most things. Check our defense of MJ against these Bran stans. We usually say the same things. lol

[Bronbron23]

We usually agree on most things. Check our defense of MJ against these Bran stans. We usually say the same things. lol

Oh my bad. Maybe just recently then. Thought we were just recently disagreeing on something. Maybe about greek?

[3ba11]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 8x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting





^^^ that isn't a top 100 resume, let alone top 30... Every MVP has a better resume than Pippen... So you're giving him top 30 based on a lesser resume than everyone else that is in the top 30..






Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 8x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting





Payton has more all-nba and all-defense, while leading his team to the Finals, WCF and 1 seeds on various occasions..

So he's above Pippen based on your criteria, yet he isn't top 50 all-time.. Otoh, the 6 rings puts Pippen's lesser resume into the top 30 because of 6 ring blinders.

It isn't just Payton - Stockton has twice as many all-nba than Pippen and is 8th in BPM all-time, while leading his team to many runs past the 2nd Round.. So Stockton is ahead of Pippen based on your criteria as well.

And any team pursuing a 4-peat can win 55 games regardless of cast - after getting exposed in the playoffs and the 3-peat luster gone, the 95' bulls were a .500 ballclub that MJ carried to 13-4 and another 3-peat.

And tons of guys like Blake Griffin or Paul George are 3rd for MVP in their best year... Again, saying that 3rd for MVP and 55 wins is top 30 is preposterous, especially considering that Pippen never played above top 100 in the playoffs - show me where he played anywhere near top 30 in the playoffs.. There's no such performance, so he doesn't deserve top 100.

[HoopsNY]

^^^ that isn't a top 100 resume, let alone top 30... Every MVP has a better resume than Pippen... So you're giving him top 30 based on a lesser resume than everyone else that is in the top 30..






Payton has more all-nba and all-defense, while leading his team to the Finals, WCF and 1 seeds on various occasions..

So he's above Pippen based on your criteria, yet he isn't top 50 all-time.. Otoh, the 6 rings puts Pippen's lesser resume into the top 30 because of 6 ring blinders.

It isn't just Payton - Stockton has twice as many all-nba than Pippen and is 8th in BPM all-time, while leading his team to many runs past the 2nd Round.. So Stockton is ahead of Pippen based on your criteria as well.

And any team pursuing a 4-peat can win 55 games regardless of cast - after getting exposed in the playoffs and the 3-peat luster gone, the 95' bulls were a .500 ballclub that MJ carried to 13-4 and another 3-peat.

And tons of guys like Blake Griffin or Paul George are 3rd for MVP in their best year... Again, saying that 3rd for MVP and 55 wins is top 30 is preposterous, especially considering that Pippen never played above top 100 in the playoffs - show me where he played anywhere near top 30 in the playoffs.. There's no such performance, so he doesn't deserve top 100.

The discussion wasn't about all these guys, but I've already mentioned before that GP is just as good as Pippen. The topic is about Jrue and Middleton being top 30. To put them there after 6 rings would only happen if accompanied by a lot of other things.

[3ba11]

The discussion wasn't about all these guys, but I've already mentioned before that GP is just as good as Pippen. The topic is about Jrue and Middleton being top 30. To put them there after 6 rings would only happen if accompanied by a lot of other things.


Why isn't payton top 30 if he's just as good as Pippen?

Payton isn't even top 75 on most lists

The reality is that 2nd options don't get credit for rings... Only Pippen does... You don't see Klay ranked over Harden due to rings, but Pippen is ranked over a lot of guys due to ring count, not performance... Pippen is literally a top 300 playoff performer - show me where he played at an all-time level in the playoffs... Pippen isn't an all-time player and simply overrated by the winning spotlight..

[iamgine]

The answer is yes it's possible Middleton is top 30 if he wins 6 chips.

If he's very crucial in winning all of them like Pippen was, then really there's no reason why not.


What's next, we gonna ask is Coach Bud gonna be top 5 coach if he won 6 chips? :lol

[Overdrive]

^^^ that isn't a top 100 resume, let alone top 30... Every MVP has a better resume than Pippen... So you're giving him top 30 based on a lesser resume than everyone else that is in the top 30..


Name 100 players with 7 all-nba and 10 all-defense teams.

[3ba11]

The answer is yes it's possible Middleton is top 30 if he wins 6 chips.

If he's very crucial in winning all of them like Pippen was, then really there's no reason why not.


What's next, we gonna ask is Coach Bud gonna be top 5 coach if he won 6 chips? :lol


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


Pippen had 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs for a winning sidekick (93', 96', 98') and the lowest BPM for a winning sidekick (93')

So there's only evidence of his poor play - he literally never played at an all-time level in the playoffs - the closest he came was 91', when he played worse than Middleton or Jrue this year.

[iamgine]

See that's the problem when one don't watch games. Pippen's impact was a lot more than his stats.

[3ba11]

Name 100 players with 7 all-nba and 10 all-defense teams.


Those aren't the best media awards - the best media awards are MVP and DPOY, which Pippen has none of.

Furthermore, Pippen was a 2nd option, so he ranks below a lot of 1st options by default

And do we only evaluate players on paper? are we going to look at actual PERFORMANCE?.. isn't that how players should be ranked?... Show me where Pippen played at an all-time level... 55 wins and 3rd for MVP is Blake Griffin or Paul George level... that isn't an all-time peak or anywhere near

[3ba11]

See that's the problem when one don't watch games. Pippen's impact was a lot more than his stats.


I literally watched all the games when I was at Bradley U in Peoria.. We watched every single game and back then, and Pippen was considered a bum.. My West Indian buddies referred to Pippen as "potty pippen"

Many people in Chicago said he was a bum.. no one noticed, cared or tracked his performance because we all knew he never did anything.. the few times he had a good game, it would be like a joke.. we would clown about it.

your narrative that he had intangibles is false and works the opposite way - pippen had the worst intangibles in history, so Jordan had to completely carry this guy.. Jordan didn't care as long as he was able to pull it off - he actually liked it that way and would've been bored with a dominant sidekick that allowed easy wins and no need for carry-jobs..

this is all first-hand account of how people felt in Chicago at the time.

[iamgine]

:lol Sure buddy

[Kblaze8855]

Let's see Middleton or Jrue be awarded All-NBA honors 7x, All-Defensive 10x, lead a team to 55 wins without their best player into the playoffs, finish 3rd in MVP voting, and finish 2nd in DPOY voting, then we can talk.

Imagine Middleton on an all nba team over Barkley and Grant Hill.

[ImKobe]

Very true, but Jrue and Middleton haven't done it. Besides, that's just one piece of the puzzle to even approach drawing a comparison.

Middleton definitely is on Pippen's level as a sidekick though, I believe he had the most go-ahead game-tying clutch shots in Playoffs history for a single Playoff run this year with 24/8/5 averages. Not a great defender like Pippen was but he's definitely a better shooter/closer. Jrue is a different story but we know that he's an elite defender who's an inconsistent offensive player, similar to Pippen but obviously smaller in size. He averaged 17/6/9/2. Not far off tbh.

[3ba11]

:lol Sure buddy


I went to Bradley for 2 years and played with Anthony Parker but I quit the team.. Then I transferred to FIU and played with Raj and C-lo.. Then I quit that team.. I was on full academic scholarship but made 2 division I teams for the lulz and so I could talk shit.. I was immature admittedly.

So I digress, but it's too bad you can't shut me down by saying "dude, you're crazy because Pippen dropped 40 in the 93' Finals and saved the Bulls in that one game just like Middleton did"

Or maybe you could say "dude, remember when pippen took that series over and averaged 25 on 53% in the 92' ECSF and destroyed X-man?"

but there are zero all-time performances from Pippen because he isn't an all-time player if we go by PERFORMANCE (not media awards biased by winning spotlight)... he's only played like a dud in the playoffs... never an all-time performance.. ever... he's just an overrated, low-producing bum and carried to 6 chips

[iamgine]

Again, that's the problem when one doesn't watch games. Pippen's impact was a lot more than his stats.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Will Middleton and Jrue lead in assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, and overall defense like how Pippen led the Bulls?

[3ba11]

Middleton definitely is on Pippen's level as a sidekick though, I believe he had the most go-ahead game-tying clutch shots in Playoffs history for a single Playoff run this year with 24/8/5 averages. Not a great defender like Pippen was but he's definitely a better shooter/closer. Jrue is a different story but we know that he's an elite defender who's an inconsistent offensive player, similar to Pippen but obviously smaller in size. He averaged 17/6/9/2. Not far off tbh.


Clutch Points (last 5 within 5)


21' Middleton.... 4.8 ppg

97' Pippen........ 1.6 ppg
98' Pippen........ 1.7 ppg
99' Pippen........ 0.0 ppg

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1998-99&SeasonType=Playoffs

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

Will Middleton and Jrue lead in assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, and overall defense like how Pippen led the Bulls?



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)



93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s



In addition to leading the defense, Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (assist percentage)..

So Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, passing and defense... Carry on

[3ba11]

Again, that's the problem when one doesn't watch games. Pippen's impact was a lot more than his stats.


Pippen had low character (put off surgery), integrity (called phil a racist), maturity (sat out the game), leadership (when), and clutch (too many chokes to name) - he had horrific intangibles... WOAT stats and WOAT intangibles..

[Pip' N Rodman]

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)



93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s



In addition to leading the defense, Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (assist percentage)..

So Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, passing and defense... Carry on

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

Pippen led in all the stats

[ImKobe]

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

Pippen led in all the stats

Give rebounds, assists, steals & blocks the value of 2 pts and MJ still beats him by a mile lmfao.

[3ba11]

Pippen led in all the stats





Let's convert that chart to PER GAME:


Jordan... 32.6 ppg... 5.4 apg
Pippen... 19.0 ppg... 5.5 apg


Finals

Jordan.... 33.6 ppg... 6.0 apg... 48.1 fg... 2.8 tov
Pippen.... 19.0 ppg... 5.9 apg... 42.5 fg... 3.3 tov



Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (assist percentage)..

So Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, passing and defense (more DPOY votes every year).. Carry on

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

If they out rebound, out asist, out steal, and out block Giannis while outscoring opposing teams #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals, yes.


Damm, Pippen set the top 30 bar high.

[Ne 1]

I say no.. I say he'd be maybe top 100.. if we're looking objectively

Defense is a team effort - if you have better offense from one position, then you can seek cheaper defenders at other positions.. Individual defense simply doesn't matter when evaluating or comparing players - only team defense matters and that's the GM's job.. Put MJ and Middleton together along with a bunch of cheap defenders and it's OVER.

So again, where to rank Middleton if he wins 6?

Offense is a team effort!

Defense is a team effort!

All players buckets add up the score!!

All players' efforts to stop buckets, helps to ensure there is an imbalance of score.

Individual PPG don't mean a thing - teams scoring MORE points - does!! Tony Parker was 42nd in the league for PPG in the regular season and was the leading Spurs player in ppg in their last playoff championship run- and people call that team loaded!! Middleton did what Leonard couldn't do, as Leonard only averaged 17.8pts - yet got FMVP in 2014.

So, if comparing Pippen to Middleton, I hope you have the same energy with your whack ideas and say Middleton's Finals 24ppg means he's better than Leonard's 2014 Finals 17ppg!

[Phoenix]

So you think it's a legit conversation if he does.. so the "6 rings blinders" is a real thing.. wow

No, I didn't say that. I said until such a thing happens here......and it won't......there's no point talking about it.

[red1]

nah. too many bricks.


OP you stupid fukk.

[Phoenix]

Why isn't payton top 30 if he's just as good as Pippen?

Payton isn't even top 75 on most lists



ESPN list: 53rd

Bleacher report: 31st

Which lists from any remotely reputable source has him outside top 75?

[SouBeachTalents]

ESPN list: 53rd

Bleacher report: 31st

Which lists from any remotely reputable source has him outside top 75?
The ones he reads at Arkham Asylum

[GrayGoat]

:facepalm:

Sums up this thread

[ZenMaster]

Good players for sure, but 6 titles wtf?

[3ba11]

I'm curious to see if Middleton and Jrue start getting all-nba like Pippen did once he got a chip

[red1]

OP you stupid sack of shit.


terrible thread. you dumb mother****er.

[3ba11]

ESPN list: 53rd

Bleacher report: 31st

Which lists from any remotely reputable source has him outside top 75?


Let me guess - Pippen ranks higher than Payton in both of those rankings despite Payton being a better scorer, passer, leader, and defender, while getting better stats and deeper runs than Pippen.

So if that's where Payton is ranked, then Pippen should be far below that.. And we all saw what happened when they faced off head-to-head (96' Finals).

Ultimately, what would Pippen have become without this (1:28 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymu2E3O7pAs&t=11s


^^^ that barely got Pippen to be a 16/5 player with weak efficiency - so Pippen wouldn't develop to a 16/5 player with anyone else - it was just BARELY enough help for MJ's goat stats to win most years and no one else could've won with that... We saw that prime Wade and Bosh couldn't win with Pippen in the 11' Finals.. Duncan won a chip in 03' with his 2nd option playing poorly, but Duncan was never required to produce like MJ did - MJ carried the Bulls to 6 chips and the stats show that clearly....

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm curious to see if Middleton and Jrue start getting all-nba like Pippen did once he got a chip
Pippen made All-NBA & All-Defensive 1st Team while finishing top 3 in MVP & DPOY voting in '94, neither of them have a prayer of EVER doing that :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Let me guess - Pippen ranks higher than Payton in both of those rankings despite Payton being a better scorer, passer, leader, and defender, while getting better stats and deeper runs than Pippen.

So if that's where Payton is ranked, then Pippen should be far below that.. And we all saw what happened when they faced off head-to-head (96' Finals).

Ultimately, what would Pippen have become without this (1:28 mark):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymu2E3O7pAs&t=11s


^^^ that barely got Pippen to be a 16/5 player with weak efficiency - so Pippen wouldn't develop to a 16/5 player with anyone else - it was just BARELY enough help for MJ's goat stats to win most years and no one else could've won with that... We saw that prime Wade and Bosh couldn't win with Pippen in the 11' Finals.. Duncan won a chip in 03' with his 2nd option playing poorly, but Duncan was never required to produce like MJ did - MJ carried the Bulls to 6 chips and the stats show that clearly....

Who was talking about Pippen? I thought this was a Kris Middleton thread?

[SouBeachTalents]

Who was talking about Pippen? I thought this was a Kris Middleton thread?
I thought we were talking about '89 Pippen

[Phoenix]

I thought we were talking about '89 Pippen

:cheers:

[3ba11]

Who was talking about Pippen? I thought this was a Kris Middleton thread?


Pippen is ranked top 30 due to 6 rings - we know this because he has zero performances that were anywhere near top 100, let alone top 30

So I'm wondering whether Jrue or Middleton will be ranked top 30 if they win 6 chips too - I'm sure they will start to get all-nba consideration like Pippen did when he started winning chips, because that's what the winning spotlight does...

But unlike Pippen, they actually have top 100-caliber performances to justify an all-time ranking.. Middleton dropped 40 several times including the Finals, and led the league in clutch points in these playoffs (48 points - that would rank among the best of Lebron's career)... Meanwhile, Jrue actually locked guys up as the primary defender, while Pippen never did.. Everyone got theirs on Pippen..

[TheCorporation]

pippen is ranked top 30 due to 6 rings - we know this because he has zero performances that were anywhere near top 100, let alone top 30

so i'm wondering whether jrue or middleton will be ranked top 30 if they win 6 chips too - i'm sure they will start to get all-nba consideration like pippen did when he started winning chips, because that's what the winning spotlight does...

But unlike pippen, they actually have top 100-caliber performances to justify an all-time ranking.. Middleton dropped 40 several times including the finals, and led the league in clutch points in these playoffs (48 points - that would rank among the best of lebron's career)... Meanwhile, jrue actually locked guys up as the primary defender, while pippen never did.. Everyone got theirs on pippen..

.
THREAD CLIFFS

'89 Pippen

[8Ball]

Top 30 yes. Top 20 no.

Middleton:

NBA champion (2021)
2× NBA All-Star (2019, 2020)
Second-team All-Big 12 (2011)

Pippen:

6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7× NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)


Pippen is top 20. Middleton can't even make an all-nba team.

[bizil]

Your peak-prime value and solo accolades is a part of GOAT status. I keep seeing the name Pippen brought up. Pip's credentials SOLO WISE in addition to his rings got him top 30 GOAT level status. And Pip REDEFINED the SF position. The league had never seen a 6'8 freak athlete at the SF who could defend, pass, and play or defend four different positions like Pippen. And still get you 21 PPG.

From there, he was THE BLUEPRINT for the freak athletic point forward type that G Hill and Bron took to new heights. So Pip FOR SURE changed the game of basketball. He was a mix of Dr. J size and freak athletic ability WITH Hondo's floor game!

Middleton isn't ANYWHERE close to that type of status. Because as I stated before, shit like peak-prime status and redefining the game count. That's where Middleton falls short. Even if they won six rings, what's their solo accolades IN ADDITION to that? And peak-prime, you AREN'T even a top 30 all time player at your position, HOW IN THE HELL COULD YOU BE a top 30 GOAT in general???

[3ba11]

Your peak-prime value and solo accolades is a part of GOAT status. I keep seeing the name Pippen brought up. Pip's credentials SOLO WISE in addition to his rings got him top 30 GOAT level status. And Pip REDEFINED the SF position. The league had never seen a 6'8 freak athlete at the SF who could defend, pass, and play or defend four different positions like Pippen. And still get you 21 PPG.

From there, he was THE BLUEPRINT for the freak athletic point forward type that G Hill and Bron took to new heights. So Pip FOR SURE changed the game of basketball. He was a mix of Dr. J size and freak athletic ability WITH Hondo's floor game!

Middleton isn't ANYWHERE close to that type of status. Because as I stated before, shit like peak-prime status and redefining the game count. That's where Middleton falls short. Even if they won six rings, what's their solo accolades IN ADDITION to that? And peak-prime, you AREN'T even a top 30 all time player at your position, HOW IN THE HELL COULD YOU BE a top 30 GOAT in general???

Drexler and Bird were better passers...... and when Penny/Grant entered the league, they showed that Pippen's skills were rudimentary.. The Bulls won in 93' and the 2nd three-peat in spite of pippen - he had 3 of the 7 worst true shooting runs in history (93', 96', 98'), including the lowest BPM ever for a winning sidekick (93')... And 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs - so he was completely wetting the bed ROUTINELY - that kind of anemic offense made him a defensive role player.

Meanwhile, Middleton and Jrue played better than Pippen ever did in these playoffs - Pippen never took over offensively like Middleton, nor did he lock anyone down as the primary defender like Jrue.. Everyone got theirs on Pippen.. There isn't a single instance of him playing at an all-time level in the playoffs - he's the worst playoff performer ever, given his stature... It makes a lot of sense that the goat's sidekick would be among the most overrated players ever (carried).. Jordan did literally everything better than him, while doubling his scoring average.

[3ba11]

Top 30 yes. Top 20 no.

Middleton:

NBA champion (2021)
2× NBA All-Star (2019, 2020)
Second-team All-Big 12 (2011)

Pippen:

6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7× NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)


Pippen is top 20. Middleton can't even make an all-nba team.


Pippen made all-nba teams from 91-98' when Jordan was carrying him to rings - the winning spotlight concealed his otherwise pedestrian stats and performance.. He was exposed in Houston without the triangle in 99' - he was a 14 ppg scorer outside the triangle (89' and 99')

Otoh, Middleton and Jrue played better than Pippen ever did in these playoffs - Pippen never took over offensively like Middleton, nor did he lock anyone down as the primary defender like Jrue.. Everyone got theirs on Pippen.. There isn't a single instance of him playing at an all-time level in the playoffs - he's the worst playoff performer ever, given his stature... It makes a lot of sense that the goat's sidekick would be among the most overrated players ever (carried).. Jordan did literally everything better than him, while doubling his scoring average.

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

If they out rebound, out asist, out steal, and out block Giannis while outscoring opposing teams #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals, yes.


Damm, Pippen set the top 30 bar high.

Shookball?

[3ba11]

Shookball?


The chart shows Pippen was carried because they averaged within 0.2 of each other per game in every category except rebounds, while Jordan nearly doubled Pippen's scoring with far better efficiency and also recognized as the superior defender.

Add up all the differences in steals, blocks and assists (0.5 total per game) and compare to Jordan's 14 point edge in scoring with better efficiency - Pippen was carried more than any star ever was

Btw, Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often (assist percentage) and getting more DPOY votes every year.. So the 6 championship runs don't tell the full story of MJ carrying Pippen.

[Jasper]

When he does, we'll revisit the conversation. Till then, a pointless hypothetical when he's 1/6th of the way there.

I think if OP thinks the core of the team was there , and Jrue and Chris were there and they win 6 chips,,, where would I put them ....
6 chips puts them in the hall and quite possibly top 20.
But realistically if the Bucks win another like Detroit did .. I would be very content with this team !

[Phoenix]

Pippen is ranked top 30 due to 6 rings - we know this because he has zero performances that were anywhere near top 100, let alone top 30

So I'm wondering whether Jrue or Middleton will be ranked top 30 if they win 6 chips too - I'm sure they will start to get all-nba consideration like Pippen did when he started winning chips, because that's what the winning spotlight does...

But unlike Pippen, they actually have top 100-caliber performances to justify an all-time ranking.. Middleton dropped 40 several times including the Finals, and led the league in clutch points in these playoffs (48 points - that would rank among the best of Lebron's career)... Meanwhile, Jrue actually locked guys up as the primary defender, while Pippen never did.. Everyone got theirs on Pippen..

Middleton has like 2 allstar selections and he's nearly 30. Scottie had way more accolades by that point in terms of all nba selections. And I'll go ahead and address the point you're going to make about his All-NBA selections. You're going to say that Scottie got those accolades because he enjoyed the 'winning spotlight' that MJ provided. So with that said, if MJ provided a winning spotlight to the degree that other players on his team got All-NBA nods, why did only Scottie benefit from this? Why wasnt BJ Armstrong an All-NBA player in 93? Or Bill Cartwright in 91? Or really, pick any Bulls player other than MJ and Scottie between 91 and 93. Why didn't any of them get the 'winning spotlight' as well?

[3ba11]

I think if OP thinks the core of the team was there , and Jrue and Chris were there and they win 6 chips,,, where would I put them ....
6 chips puts them in the hall and quite possibly top 20.
But realistically if the Bucks win another like Detroit did .. I would be very content with this team !


So if Giannis wins 5 more chips like this, then Middleton and Jrue will be top 30 and everyone will say he "needed" them to win - no one could ever replace Jrue and Middleton... Got it..

And that's exactly what they say about Pippen.. It's bullshit for Middleton and Jrue, and it's bullshit for Pippen.. Jordan and Giannis don't "need" these guys to win.. They just need guys like them, of which there are tons..

[And1AllDay]

So if Giannis wins 5 more chips like this, then Middleton and Jrue will be top 30 and everyone will say he "needed" them to win - no one could ever replace Jrue and Middleton... Got it..

And that's exactly what they say about Pippen.. It's bullshit for Middleton and Jrue, and it's bullshit for Pippen.. Jordan and Giannis don't "need" these guys to win.. They just need guys like them, of which there are tons..

if they do this to giannis and carry all the other duties of the game then yes

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

[3ba11]

if they do this to giannis and carry all the other duties of the game then yes

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg


Jordan.... 32.6 ppg... 5.4 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg... 6 rpg
Pippen.... 19.0 ppg... 5.5 apg.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg... 8 rpg


So Pippen was carried..

And Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often than Pippen (assist percentage)...

[And1AllDay]

Jordan.... 32.6 ppg... 5.4 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg... 6 rpg
Pippen.... 19.0 ppg... 5.5 apg.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg... 8 rpg


So Pippen was carried..

And Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often than Pippen (assist percentage)...

font size 4 wont help you here bud

if jrue holiday or middleton does this to giannis and carries all the other duties of the game then yes

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg

[3ba11]

font size 4 wont help you here bud

if jrue holiday or middleton does this to giannis and carries all the other duties of the game then yes

https://i.postimg.cc/k4RZypFv/FB-IMG-1525375107033.jpg



Pictures and totals won't help you..

Jordan.... 32.6 ppg... 5.4 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg... 6 rpg
Pippen.... 19.0 ppg... 5.5 apg.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg... 8 rpg


And Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often than Pippen (assist percentage)...

[And1AllDay]

Pictures and totals won't help you..

Jordan.... 32.6 ppg... 5.4 apg.. 1.9 spg.. 0.8 bpg... 6 rpg
Pippen.... 19.0 ppg... 5.5 apg.. 2.1 spg.. 0.9 bpg... 8 rpg


And Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, while assisting 33% more often than Pippen (assist percentage)...

why repost the same bull crap on font size 4? i got more hits waiting for you

https://i.postimg.cc/0QdsFNXK/pip_is_def_anchor_for_bulls.png

https://i.postimg.cc/Jhm4wx2h/NO9KDK_facebook.gif

[3ba11]

why repost the same bull crap on font size 4? i got more hits waiting for you

https://i.postimg.cc/0QdsFNXK/pip_is_def_anchor_for_bulls.png






DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)



93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s



In addition to leading the defense, Jordan led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, and assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (assist percentage)..

So Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, passing and defense... Carry on

[And1AllDay]

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)



93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:


So Jordan led the Bulls in scoring, passing and defense... Carry on


full quotes only like a man or i can edit your quote as well

why repost the same bull crap on font size 4? i got more hits waiting for you

https://i.postimg.cc/0QdsFNXK/pip_is_def_anchor_for_bulls.png

https://i.postimg.cc/Jhm4wx2h/NO9KDK_facebook.gif

[3ba11]

full quotes only like a man or i can edit your quote as well





Ain't nobody quoting that shit.

Just the fact that his fans put him in gifs like that confirms a lot about him and his fans

[And1AllDay]

Ain't nobody quoting that shit.

Just the fact that his fans put him in gifs like that confirms a lot about him and his fans

scared meltdown

[Axe]

I literally watched all the games when I was at Bradley U in Peoria.. We watched every single game and back then, and Pippen was considered a bum.. My West Indian buddies referred to Pippen as "potty pippen"

Many people in Chicago said he was a bum.. no one noticed, cared or tracked his performance because we all knew he never did anything.. the few times he had a good game, it would be like a joke.. we would clown about it.

your narrative that he had intangibles is false and works the opposite way - pippen had the worst intangibles in history, so Jordan had to completely carry this guy.. Jordan didn't care as long as he was able to pull it off - he actually liked it that way and would've been bored with a dominant sidekick that allowed easy wins and no need for carry-jobs..

this is all first-hand account of how people felt in Chicago at the time.
Coming from a guy who claimed he used to dunk on zach randolph

[Phoenix]

Middleton has like 2 allstar selections and he's nearly 30. Scottie had way more accolades by that point in terms of all nba selections. And I'll go ahead and address the point you're going to make about his All-NBA selections. You're going to say that Scottie got those accolades because he enjoyed the 'winning spotlight' that MJ provided. So with that said, if MJ provided a winning spotlight to the degree that other players on his team got All-NBA nods, why did only Scottie benefit from this? Why wasnt BJ Armstrong an All-NBA player in 93? Or Bill Cartwright in 91? Or really, pick any Bulls player other than MJ and Scottie between 91 and 93. Why didn't any of them get the 'winning spotlight' as well?
3ball?

Need this one answered. If Pippen 'enjoyed the winning spotlight' due to playing alongside MJ and this is why he got all his All-NBA nods and general accolades, then why did none of the other Bulls on the team get accolades as well on the same account? Shouldn't B.J have an All-NBA or something? How does this winning spotlight thing work?

[FatrickChewing]

I went to Bradley for 2 years and played with Anthony Parker but I quit the team.. Then I transferred to FIU and played with Raj and C-lo.. Then I quit that team.. I was on full academic scholarship but made 2 division I teams for the lulz and so I could talk shit.. I was immature admittedly.

So I digress, but it's too bad you can't shut me down by saying "dude, you're crazy because Pippen dropped 40 in the 93' Finals and saved the Bulls in that one game just like Middleton did"

Or maybe you could say "dude, remember when pippen took that series over and averaged 25 on 53% in the 92' ECSF and destroyed X-man?"

but there are zero all-time performances from Pippen because he isn't an all-time player if we go by PERFORMANCE (not media awards biased by winning spotlight)... he's only played like a dud in the playoffs... never an all-time performance.. ever... he's just an overrated, low-producing bum and carried to 6 chips

You also played with Zach Randolph

[Jasper]

Pip carried by Jordan is a JOKE

bottom line this is a team sport , and if it was not for each of the players that played the stars would not have a supporting cast.

SUPPORTING CAST DOES NOT MEAN CARRIED - get over it .
/

[97 bulls]

Pip carried by Jordan is a JOKE

bottom line this is a team sport , and if it was not for each of the players that played the stars would not have a supporting cast.

SUPPORTING CAST DOES NOT MEAN CARRIED - get over it .
/

EXACTLY!!!!! Why some of these guys cant see this is beyond me.