Just so we're clear: Giannis is now > KG, Dirk, Malone, Barkley

[Im Still Ballin]

Taken from L Kizzle's thread:



Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2 MVPs, 1 Champ, 1 Finals MVP, 1 DPOY, 5 All-Star games, three 1st teams, three Defense 1st teams

Dirk Nowitzki- 1 MVP, 1 Champ, 1 Finals MVP, 14 All-Star games, four 1st teams

Kevin Garnett - 1 MVP, 1 Champ, 15 All-Star games, Four 1st teams, nine Defense 1st teams, four rebounding titles

Karl Malone - 2 MVPs, 14 All-Star games, eleven 1st teams, three Defense 1st teams

Charles Barkley - 1 MVP, 11 All-Star games, five 1st teams, 1 rebounding title


Quality > Quantity

[Sulico]

Taken from L Kizzle's thread:



Quality > Quantity

He is not over Dirk in my list yet, but other than that I agree.

[Im Still Ballin]

He is not over Dirk in my list yet, but other than that I agree.

Why not? He's already got more top-tier hardware (Championship, FMVP, MVP, DPOY)

Only 1 All-NBA 1st Team less, and he's still got many, many years left.

[HoopsNY]

I don't think Giannis is ahead of KG. Can we contextualize what it means to have a player that is completely dependent on not following any rules?

Giannis literally depends on being allowed to always travel, always palm/carry the ball, and always barrel to the basket and have defenders not be allowed to touch him. He can't shoot and lacks a mid-range/outside game, consistently shoots air-ball free throws, and benefited from an injury plagued league.

Not to mention, aside from shooting, KG had better post moves, was a better play-maker, and a better defensive player. KG was both an elite help defender and on the ball defender. Giannis is more of a solid help defender.

If guys like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, etc got injured in the early 2000s, and KG saw a Nets team in the finals like the Lakers did in 2002, but he has a lineup that included:

C - Brad Miller/Divac
SF - Peja/G. Robinson
PG - Billups/Blaylock,

what would the outcome have been? I think it's safe to say that not only does KG and the T-Wolves make the finals, but they ultimately win it.

[tontoz]

Giannis literally depends on being allowed to always travel, always palm/carry the ball, and always barrel to the basket and have defenders not be allowed to touch him. He can't shoot and lacks a mid-range/outside game, consistently shoots air-ball free throws, and benefited from an injury plagued league.



In the playoffs Giannis shot 47.2% from 3-10 feet and 49.2% from 10-16 feet. Almost a third of his shots were from 3-16 feet.

[Sarcastic]

I think he needs a few more years of play to have some longevity, but yes if he doesn't have any major injuries in the next few seasons, he will pass all of them.

[HoopsNY]

In the playoffs Giannis shot 47.2% from 3-10 feet and 49.2% from 10-16 feet. Almost a third of his shots were from 3-16 feet.

and 29% from 16-29 ft and 18% from deep. And before this year, 32% from 10-16 ft. People are fawning too much over this overrated chip.

[tontoz]

and 29% from 16-29 ft and 18% from deep. And before this year, 32% from 10-16 ft. People are fawning too much over this overrated chip.

Only 5.5% of his shots were from 16-3pt so that distance is basically irrelevant.

I would definitely like to see him stop shooting 3s.

Overrated chip? People were dismissing the Bucks before the playoffs due to their previous failures. Even in the finals they were seen as underdogs. Giannis went off after a knee injury in the previous series. 35/13/5 is a legendary series.

[8Ball]

Yes he is ahead of all of them. I put Dirk at around 15-16.

He is ahead of Durant as well.

Giannis is in the top 14, top 15 right now.

In order:
Bron
Mj
Kareem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Bill Russell
Wilt
Hakeem
Kobe
Jerry West
Oscar
Moses Malone
-> Giannis can be right there afterwards.

[L.Kizzle]

I think he needs a few more years of play to have some longevity, but yes if he doesn't have any major injuries in the next few seasons, he will pass all of them.
A few more Year to do what exactly? He already has more rimgs than Chuck and Malone and more MVPs than Dirk and KG.

[And1AllDay]

A few more Year to do what exactly? He already has more rimgs than Chuck and Malone and more MVPs than Dirk and KG.

but if rings are everything

russe11 > jord6n

[MadDog]

His career resume stacks up. Giannis isn't definitevely better than peak Malone though. Or peak Barkley. Giannis had arguably the GOAT single-game performance in finals history. He's got the title and gets full credit for it. But this years Suns weren't Michael Jordan and the Dynasty Bulls. The Bucks would have met the same fate 90s Utah and Phoenix did.

[Airupthere]

Can't believe the celtics passed up on this guy. Picked oleynik over giannis. That could have changed the whole landscape for boston.

[RogueBorg]

Can't believe the celtics passed up on this guy. Picked oleynik over giannis. That could have changed the whole landscape for boston.

Did anyone see this coming?

[MadDog]

A few more Year to do what exactly? He already has more rimgs than Chuck and Malone and more MVPs than Dirk and KG.

Kawhi has more rings, DPOYs and FMVPs than Chuck, Malone, Dirk & KG. :confusedshrug: He greater than all them too?

[1987_Lakers]

His career resume stacks up. Giannis isn't definitevely better than peak Malone though. Or peak Barkley. Giannis had arguably the GOAT single-game performance in finals history. He's got the title and gets full credit for it. But this years Suns weren't Michael Jordan and the Dynasty Bulls. The Bucks would have met the same fate 90s Utah and Phoenix did.

Peak wise I'd rank Giannis above Karl Malone, Karl Malone's offense always shrank in the playoffs mostly because he wasn't an elite shot creator compared to guys like Barkley & Hakeem, young Malone got lots of his buckets in transition and got alot of easy buckets due to pick n roll plays with Stockton, he couldn't just couldn't consistently ISO and score like Giannis does, Giannis' handle is better and his size and athletic ability allow him to dominate down low on his own, also a higher defensive impact than peak Karl Malone.

[tontoz]

Peak wise I'd rank Giannis above Karl Malone, Karl Malone's offense always shrank in the playoffs mostly because he wasn't an elite shot creator compared to guys like Barkley & Hakeem, young Malone got lots of his buckets in transition and got alot of easy buckets due to pick n roll plays with Stockton, he couldn't just couldn't consistently ISO and score like Giannis does, Giannis' handle is better and his size and athletic ability allow him to dominate down low on his own, also a higher defensive impact than peak Karl Malone.

I agree. Malone relied a lot on getting to the foul line. His 1on 1 moves weren't that good.

[tontoz]

Kawhi has more rings, DPOYs and FMVPs than Chuck, Malone, Dirk & KG. :confusedshrug: He greater than all them too?


Zero MVPs.

[Sarcastic]

A few more Year to do what exactly? He already has more rimgs than Chuck and Malone and more MVPs than Dirk and KG.

His prime as of today is only 4 years long. If he had a catastrophic injury tomorrow, and couldn't ever play again, that prime is not long enough.

He needs at least 3 more years of elite play (which shouldn't be a problem), and he will pass them.

Longevity isn't the most important thing, but it's not irrelevant either.

[MadDog]

Peak wise I'd rank Giannis above Karl Malone, Karl Malone's offense always shrank in the playoffs mostly because he wasn't an elite shot creator compared to guys like Barkley & Hakeem, young Malone got lots of his buckets in transition and got alot of easy buckets due to pick n roll plays with Stockton, he couldn't just couldn't consistently ISO and score like Giannis does, Giannis' handle is better and his size and athletic ability allow him to dominate down low on his own, also a higher defensive impact than peak Karl Malone.

Malone's play dropped off in the postseason, I agree. But compared to Giannis, Malone is absolutely an upper tier offensive player. Better jumpshooter and could bully ball in the post. He wasn't DPOY level like Giannis, but Malone was no slouch on that end either. I'm just saying neither is that far off :confusedshrug: Of all the forwards, Peak Barkley arguably peaked the highest.


Zero MVPs.

Yes, go on.....

[L.Kizzle]

His prime as of today is only 4 years long. If he had a catastrophic injury tomorrow, and couldn't ever play again, that prime is not long enough.

He needs at least 3 more years of elite play (which shouldn't be a problem), and he will pass them.

Longevity isn't the most important thing, but it's not irrelevant either.
And 8 year career where he was All-Star and all nba for over half of them.
George Mikan played 8 seasons in the NBA.
Reggie Miller has 5 All-Star games and people treat him like he was a 25 ppg scorer his entire career.
There are players with less accolades than Giannis in the Hall.
Giannis did what those other PF did in 1/3 of the time.

[Im Still Ballin]

And 8 year career where he was All-Star and all nba for over half of them.
George Mikan played 8 seasons in the NBA.
Reggie Miller has 5 All-Star games and people treat him like he was a 25 ppg scorer his entire career.
There are players with less accolades than Giannis in the Hall.
Giannis did what those other PF did in 1/3 of the time.

Preach, brotha! Preach!

Tenure is good and all, but winning employee of the year is more valuable to a legacy.

[MadDog]

I also agree that longevity is overrated. Not to stray from the topic. But one of the biggest reasons I got Isiah>Paul is cuz he accomplished more in less time.

[L.Kizzle]

I also agree that longevity is overrated. Not to stray from the topic. But one of the biggest reasons I got Isiah>Paul is cuz he accomplished more in less time.

Longevity is import if you don't have a high peak or if youcan't get a title/MVP. If you have a high peak and do a lot in a little time than that is a MAJOR accomplishment.

[L.Kizzle]

I also agree that longevity is overrated. Not to stray from the topic. But one of the biggest reasons I got Isiah>Paul is cuz he accomplished more in less time.

Off course your Bill Walton and Derrick Rose situations are different. They both got injured I there 4th season and never been the same since besides and few flashback games here and there.

[fsvr54]

He's nowhere near any of them.

If we're ranking based on actual talent and skills.

[MadDog]

Longevity is import if you don't have a high peak or if youcan't get a title/MVP. If you have a high peak and do a lot in a little time than that is a MAJOR accomplishment.

That's a fair point. If this is Giannis' peak its pretty high, and at 26 he's already accomplished a ton. He'll be hurting a lot of feelings when its said and done.

[tontoz]

He's nowhere near any of them.

If we're ranking based on actual talent and skills.


So by your definition all of those guys are better than Shaq, right?

[HunterSThompson]

dirks 2011 title is worth more than this one by giannis. regardless if giannis played better he faced 36yo paul, young booker and baby ayton in a fake covid shortened season.. dirk faced prime lebron, prime wade and prime bosh in a real season


giannis needs 1 more title just to be on.the same level IMO

especially since the league robbed dirk in 2006

[L.Kizzle]

He's nowhere near any of them.

If we're ranking based on actual talent and skills.

Okay James Harden.
If no talent and skill got him a ring and MVPs imagine of he had actual talent ...

[8Ball]

Kawhi doesn't play enough regular season games to be ranked high.


You can't just take off the season and sit on the bench and climb up all time lists.

[RRR3]

His career resume stacks up. Giannis isn't definitevely better than peak Malone though. Or peak Barkley. Giannis had arguably the GOAT single-game performance in finals history. He's got the title and gets full credit for it. But this years Suns weren't Michael Jordan and the Dynasty Bulls. The Bucks would have met the same fate 90s Utah and Phoenix did.
This guy said Isiah Thomas>CP3 Cuz “CP3 is a choker” but now says Giannis isn’t definitively better than Karl Malone, one of the most infamous chokers ever who massively declined in the playoffs. Exposed as just talking up players MJ played against and having no actual consistency.

[MadDog]

This guy said Isiah Thomas>CP3 Cuz “CP3 is a choker” but now says Giannis isn’t definitively better than Karl Malone, one of the most infamous chokers ever who massively declined in the playoffs. Exposed as just talking up players MJ played against and having no actual consistency.

Lol that wasn't the reasoning I used. But its clear I got real estate in your head.

[RRR3]

Lol that wasn't the reasoning I used. But its clear I got real estate in your head.
You don’t have any reasoning. You just overrate the shit out of anyone MJ played against, consistency be damned. CP3 is factually better than Isiah and Giannis is factually better than Malone. I’m not talking GOAT list just who was better at the game of basketball

[MadDog]

You don’t have any reasoning. You just overrate the shit out of anyone MJ played against, consistency be damned. CP3 is factually better than Isiah and Giannis is factually better than Malone. I’m not talking GOAT list just who was better at the game of basketball

You literally said I ranked Isiah higher cuz "Paul is a choker". Now you're saying I have no reasoning. :oldlol: Pick one, dummy. BTW Malone had playoff runs of 29/11/3/1/1 on 52%fg. 29/11/3/1/1 on 47%fg. And 27/10/4/2/1 on 47%fg. All were around 16-20 games played, and with good individual defense. So Malone was great despite your MJ inferiority complex.

[tontoz]

Malone's TS was 52.6% in the playoffs for his career.

During his two finals runs his TS was 50.1% in '97 and 53.4% in '98. :sleeping During the regular season in those years his TS was 60% and 58% respectively.

Giannis had a TS of 60% for this years playoffs, 66% in the Finals.

[MadDog]

Giannis' TS this playoff run was 60. Same percentage Malone shot in 2/3 playoff runs I highlighted. :confusedshrug:

[tontoz]

Giannis' TS this playoff run was 60. Same percentage Malone shot in 2/3 playoff runs I highlighted. :confusedshrug:

LOL no. Malone had only one playoff run in his career 60% or better which was in '92. They didn't make the Finals that year. He never even got close to 60% in the playoffs in any other season, even in his first round exits.

[DoctorP]

Barkley, Malone, Garnett ... erased, as they say. But I will remember them. Great players.

[MadDog]

LOL no. Malone had only one playoff run in his career 60% or better which was in '92. They didn't make the Finals that year. He never even got close to 60% in the playoffs in any other season, even in his first round exits.

Alright cool, so 1/3. Lol a page ago I already said Malone fell off in the postseason. Again, I have no problem with anyone taking Giannis>Malone. But I also don't think there's a large gap between them. Even moreso with Barkley.

[RRR3]

Malone's TS was 52.6% in the playoffs for his career.

During his two finals runs his TS was 50.1% in '97 and 53.4% in '98. :sleeping During the regular season in those years his TS was 60% and 58% respectively.

Giannis had a TS of 60% for this years playoffs, 66% in the Finals.
He has no idea what he’s talking about. All he does is try to boost up MJ which is bizarre considering MJ is usually considered GOAT to begin with.


Also going from 60% TS to 50.1% is GOD TIER choking. Malone truly was one of the biggest choke artists ever.

[MadDog]

He has no idea what he’s talking about. All he does is try to boost up MJ which is bizarre considering MJ is usually considered GOAT to begin with.

You need hooked on phonics. Literally just got done saying Giannis>Malone is fair. Claiming Malone had a great peak has NOTHING to do with MJ. Got nothing to do with Isiah>Paul either. :oldlol:

[houston]

He up their this was impressive run for Greek.

[StrongLurk]

This is the same dumb shit that people were doing with Kawhi two years ago.

Giannis has like ten less all-nbas than the players mentioned in the OP and only four superstar years (with only ONE elite playoff run).

Giannis retires tomorrow and he is at best top 30.

Clearly if he stays at his current level for another 5 years or so then yeah, he will definitely be above the players mentioned in the OP.

Prime longevity is extremely important folks.

[tontoz]

This is the same dumb shit that people were doing with Kawhi two years ago.

Giannis has like ten less all-nbas than the players mentioned in the OP and only four superstar years (with only ONE elite playoff run).

Giannis retires tomorrow and he is at best top 30.

Clearly if he stays at his current level for another 5 years or so then yeah, he will definitely be above the players mentioned in the OP.

Prime longevity is extremely important folks.


Not really a valid comparison. Kawhi was drafted by a dynasty and got to the Finals primarily because of his strong teammates that already had several rings. He didn't even average 20 ppg until age 24, the same age that Giannis won his first MVP. Then he got traded to a team that won 59 games without him.

Giannis was drafted by a bad team that won only 15 games in his rookie year. He developed his game and won 2 MVPs prior to winning a ring. Their team success is primarily because of him. They built the team around him.

[Im Still Ballin]

Karl Malone was significantly above average in TS% during the regular season. Over his entire playoffs career his TS% was right about in-line with the league average. A significant drop-off of about 58 TS% to 53 TS%, roughly. Not great, but not terrible. For an all-timer, you'd expect better.

[houston]

Not really a valid comparison. Kawhi was drafted by a dynasty and got to the Finals primarily because of his strong teammates that already had several rings. He didn't even average 20 ppg until age 24, the same age that Giannis won his first MVP. Then he got traded to a team that won 59 games without him.

Giannis was drafted by a bad team that won only 15 games in his rookie year. He developed his game and won 2 MVPs prior to winning a ring. Their team success is primarily because of him. They built the team around him.



Plus Kawhi miss 22 games for rest and his team went 17-5 without him. Marc Gasol is another factor why Raptors was successful in their title run. If Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace get props for their vital roles to title teams but Gasol barely get mention with Kawhi.

[bizil]

I don't think Giannis is ahead of KG. Can we contextualize what it means to have a player that is completely dependent on not following any rules?

Giannis literally depends on being allowed to always travel, always palm/carry the ball, and always barrel to the basket and have defenders not be allowed to touch him. He can't shoot and lacks a mid-range/outside game, consistently shoots air-ball free throws, and benefited from an injury plagued league.

Not to mention, aside from shooting, KG had better post moves, was a better play-maker, and a better defensive player. KG was both an elite help defender and on the ball defender. Giannis is more of a solid help defender.

If guys like Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, etc got injured in the early 2000s, and KG saw a Nets team in the finals like the Lakers did in 2002, but he has a lineup that included:

C - Brad Miller/Divac
SF - Peja/G. Robinson
PG - Billups/Blaylock,

what would the outcome have been? I think it's safe to say that not only does KG and the T-Wolves make the finals, but they ultimately win it.


KG EASILY is a more skilled player than Giannis. Other than three point shooting, KG was LITERALLY great or damn close to it at every thing else for a player his size. KG was the ORIGINAL blueprint for a positionless type of 7 foot player. Freak athletic and LEGIT great at passing, rebounding, and defending. Could defend big swingmen all the way to centers. LEGIT played as a SF, point foward, PF, and C in the league. Always in that 22-24 PPG range.

KG ALSO had an epic motor in his prime too. When u combine scoring skillset, handles, defense, passing, and rebounding as a package, he's the MOST SKILLED PF ever! When u factor his positional versatility AND numbers as a package, he's right there with Giannis as the best all around PF ever. And KG could have played MORE like Giannis. And bring up the rock more often off of rebounds. Or bring up the rock calling sets.

KG STILL did often that in his career. But he ALSO knew he could beat you so many ways skill wise, a lot of the PG's on his team (Marbury, Brandon, Cassell, Rondo all All Star caliber PG's) were more than capable of running the sets just fine. JUS saying if called on, KG could have done it AS OFTEN as Giannis. And more in a controlled, athletic (supersized G Hill or Pip version) crafty point forward version. And GOAT, Giannis AINT CLOSE to KG yet. KG has an MVP, DPOY, and a ring too. WELL OVER 20,000 points and redefined his position. Hell SET THE BLUEPRINT for a Giannis or AD to FOLLOW! And KG WOULD HAVE KD WAY MORE than Giannis did in the playoffs! JUS SAYIN!!

[tontoz]

KG was a 7 footer who took jumpers all day. He didn't beat guys off the dribble and attack the rim much.

Plus he didn't shoot 3s. He just shot midrange shots and he was good at them but that is not efficient scoring. Shooting 45% on midrange shots is good but isnt exactly hurting the defense.

Great rebounder and defender but i want a big who can score going to the rim.

[bizil]

KG was a 7 footer who took jumpers all day. He didn't beat guys off the dribble and attack the rim much.

Plus he didn't shoot 3s. He just shot midrange shots and he was good at them but that is not efficient scoring. Shooting 45% on midrange shots is good but isnt exactly hurting the defense.

Great rebounder and defender but i want a big who can score going to the rim.

BUT KG could score on the block very good. Was a BEAST on the offensive glass! AND was know to put dudes on posters. So he still PUT IN WORK in the paint! Paint points are paint points! And KG LEGIT played as a SF and point forward at times in his career. He could go off the dribble just fine. Just didn't NEED OR HAVE to rely on it like Giannis! A big crossing over cats and getting to the rim ISN'T a premium for a 7 footer. BEING able to stretch the defense from deep midrange AND three ball land is MORE VALUABLE! KG had the deep midrange game. And in TODAY'S GAME, would have been more of a threat from three ball land! And he was an 80% FT shooter. For his career, he shot 50%! So for a guy who had such an array of skills, that's a TREMENDOUS clip!

[1987_Lakers]

Malone's play dropped off in the postseason, I agree. But compared to Giannis, Malone is absolutely an upper tier offensive player. Better jumpshooter and could bully ball in the post. He wasn't DPOY level like Giannis, but Malone was no slouch on that end either. I'm just saying neither is that far off :confusedshrug: Of all the forwards, Peak Barkley arguably peaked the highest.


Malone couldn't bully ball in the post like Giannis, not even close. Malone's lack of ball-handling ability limited his ability to create his own shot, he went from being a constant threat in transition in his younger days to developing a good mid-range shot as he got older, those formulas are less consistent when you compare the way Giannis gets his points, we just saw Giannis have a 30 ppg playoff run and shoot 57% in the process, Malone never put up those numbers in the postseason, the closest he did was in '92, but he needed 43 mpg in order for him to put up those numbers, Malone in general usually shrank in the postseason.

Also factor in Giannis clear edge in defense, you can comfortably say peak Giannis is better.

[tontoz]

BUT KG could score on the block very good. Was a BEAST on the offensive glass! AND was know to put dudes on posters. So he still PUT IN WORK in the paint! Paint points are paint points! And KG LEGIT played as a SF and point forward at times in his career. He could go off the dribble just fine. Just didn't NEED OR HAVE to rely on it like Giannis! A big crossing over cats and getting to the rim ISN'T a premium for a 7 footer. BEING able to stretch the defense from deep midrange AND three ball land is MORE VALUABLE! KG had the deep midrange game. And in TODAY'S GAME, would have been more of a threat from three ball land! And he was an 80% FT shooter. For his career, he shot 50%! So for a guy who had such an array of skills, that's a TREMENDOUS clip!


He wasn't shooting 3s though. In his best 3 pt shooting season he made 1 three every other game.

Only 22% of his shot attempts came from 0-3 feet. His career TS of 54.6% is what i would expect from a guard, not a 7 footer.

[Im Still Ballin]

Malone couldn't bully ball in the post like Giannis, not even close. Malone's lack of ball-handling ability limited his ability to create his own shot, he went from being a constant threat in transition in his younger days to developing a good mid-range shot as he got older, those formulas are less consistent when you compare the way Giannis gets his points, we just saw Giannis have a 30 ppg playoff run and shoot 57% in the process, Malone never put up those numbers in the postseason, the closest he did was in '92, but he needed 43 mpg in order for him to put up those numbers, Malone in general usually shrank in the postseason.

Also factor in Giannis clear edge in defense, you can comfortably say peak Giannis is better.

Good analysis.

Giannis is simply more physically gifted: taller, longer, more athletic.

Malone got the most out of the genetics he was given; his physique, conditioning, and longevity is testament to that.

[8Ball]

Malone's play dropped off in post season because Malone simply wasn't as good as Giannis at bull rushing to the rim. Wasn't as tall, wasn't as fast.

[MadDog]

Malone couldn't bully ball in the post like Giannis, not even close. Malone's lack of ball-handling ability limited his ability to create his own shot, he went from being a constant threat in transition in his younger days to developing a good mid-range shot as he got older, those formulas are less consistent when you compare the way Giannis gets his points, we just saw Giannis have a 30 ppg playoff run and shoot 57% in the process, Malone never put up those numbers in the postseason, the closest he did was in '92, but he needed 43 mpg in order for him to put up those numbers, Malone in general usually shrank in the postseason.

Also factor in Giannis clear edge in defense, you can comfortably say peak Giannis is better.

Sure he could. Malone was stronger, wider and the rules allowed him to be more physical.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2edAvSLD5U8

There's no way you come off watching that, and think Malone wasn't punishing dudes. Already pointed out that Malone was a better jumpshooter. Like most have said, what ultimately separates Giannis is his athleticism and height. Ball-handling as well, but why would Malone need to rely on that? That was all Stockton. Sloan ran the same system for years, with John taking it up and down the court. Finding Malone in the post or through p&r. Whether you think it was successful is another argument.

And again, today's rules allow more offensive freedom. Overall I'd lean Giannis because of his defense and mental. He's got unwavering confidence, which is something you cant teach. I posted Malone's playoff runs to suggest he wasn't far off. Not to make a sweeping claim, and call it factual.

[tontoz]

Malone was stronger than Giannis but didn't have the length. Didn't have great hops either. Sometimes he would struggle to finish inside against length.

A lot of times it looks like he was just diving into guys to get to the foul line instead of actually score.

[Axe]

Never needed a stacked team to go in the finals.

[1987_Lakers]

Malone was stronger than Giannis but didn't have the length. Didn't have great hops either. Sometimes he would struggle to finish inside against length.

A lot of times it looks like he was just diving into guys to get to the foul line instead of actually score.

Yea, the vid Mad Dog posted just shows Malone getting good low post position and shooting short jumpers/hooks, there is nothing wrong with that, but Giannis consistently gets to the rim with authority and finishes inside with a dunk/layup with contact all over him. If Malone was such a great low post presence, he wouldn't have playoff runs where he constantly only shot 45%.

[bizil]

Malone couldn't bully ball in the post like Giannis, not even close. Malone's lack of ball-handling ability limited his ability to create his own shot, he went from being a constant threat in transition in his younger days to developing a good mid-range shot as he got older, those formulas are less consistent when you compare the way Giannis gets his points, we just saw Giannis have a 30 ppg playoff run and shoot 57% in the process, Malone never put up those numbers in the postseason, the closest he did was in '92, but he needed 43 mpg in order for him to put up those numbers, Malone in general usually shrank in the postseason.

Also factor in Giannis clear edge in defense, you can comfortably say peak Giannis is better.

Yep I would take Giannis too. Malone was like the last GREAT prototype PF. The guy who you want MAINLY playing the PF spot. Not AT ALL capable of playing the SF spot. And NOT really a PF/C type guy either. He couldn't dominate the interior on both ends of the court like a true center if you put him there in his era.

The position was becoming guys who could swing EASILY to SF like Barkley, Nance, Chambers, Cummings, and Larry Johnson. Or to center like McHale, Sampson, Derrick Coleman, Kemp etc. So it was ultra athletic guys who were hybrid forwards. OR guys that can control the paint on both ends like a dominant center. I don't think many realized this back in the day. Because Malone was better than all those guys except Barkley peak-prime wise.

But in the 2000s and onward ALL THE great PF's are PF-C like Duncan, Sheed, Pau, and Bosh, postionless type PF's like a KG, Giannis, AD, and Dray, point power forward types like C Webb,KG, Giannis and Draymond, or stretch PF's like Dirk. So the PF's like the Mailman are PRETTY MUCH obsolete. Malone would be A BEAST in any era. BUT he would be MORE A LIMITED PF in terms of versatility than the other PF's of today. Malone would better than most. BUT I'm talking Giannis and AD for that matter over him. And if KD is now considered a 4 for Brooklyn SURELY him too.

[MadDog]

Yea, the vid Mad Dog posted just shows Malone getting good low post position and shooting short jumpers/hooks, there is nothing wrong with that, but Giannis consistently gets to the rim with authority and finishing inside with a dunk/layup with contact all over him. If Malone was such a great low post presence, he wouldn't have playoff runs where he constantly only shot 45%.

A little more than that. The first 2 minutes show Malone backing defenders into a spot, and going right through them. Finishing with hooks, layups or whatever you want to call it. Malone was boxing dudes in. Giannis is superior at getting to the cup, and finishes better. No argument there.

[bizil]

A little more than that. The first 3 minutes show Malone backing defenders into a spot, and going right through them. Finishing with hooks, layups or whatever you want to call it. Malone was boxing dudes in. Giannis is superior at getting to cup, and finishes better. No argument there.

Agreed! If you are talking pure brute force on the block, Malone was a TRUE BULLY down there. And Malone is MORE POLISHED on the block than Giannis. BUT in terms of freak athletic ability in the paint and going off the bounce, obviously Giannis has the edge. Hell he came in the league as a SF-point forward type! LOL He grew into his body and was able to add bully ball elements. That's what took his game to the next level!

[RicardoTubbs]

Malone destroyed both Barkley and KG head to head so he gets my nod. And keep in mind this is a Malone in his mid late 30s going up against a KG in his early to mid 20s.

KG was in absolute FEAR of Malone.

against malone, garnett averaged 19.3 points on 52% true shooting

against garnett, malone averaged 24.5 points on 58% true shooting

against malone, barkley averaged 18.4 points on 56% true shooting

against barkley, malone averaged 23.7 points on 57% true shooting

Giannis has the chip but I'm going to keep Malone ahead of him a little longer until I see Giannis longevity and/or a few more accolades.

[MadDog]

Agreed! If you are talking pure brute force on the block, Malone was a TRUE BULLY down there. And Malone is MORE POLISHED on the block than Giannis. BUT in terms of freak athletic ability in the paint and going off the bounce, obviously Giannis has the edge. Hell he came in the league as a SF-point forward type! LOL He grew into his body and was able to add bully ball elements. That's what took his game to the next level!

Those bows were lethal weapons. The one he threw at DRob was a killshot. Good points on Giannis though. He's improved every year and will likely continue to.

[tpols]

Malone's TS was 52.6% in the playoffs for his career.

During his two finals runs his TS was 50.1% in '97 and 53.4% in '98. :sleeping During the regular season in those years his TS was 60% and 58% respectively.

Giannis had a TS of 60% for this years playoffs, 66% in the Finals.

Do you really want to compare the 90s froncourts Malone faced to the ones Giannis did this year? Do you want to compare the spacing and rules? Your boy isn't running over Shaq, Rodman, or Robinson. And there's no 4 corner spacing... everybody is crowded in the paint.

I think any body with a shred of common sense could see that Giannis's play style would be totally compromised in that environment. Malones jumper looks like Currys by comparison and that was necessary to overcome GOAT frontcourt and packed paints.

[tontoz]

Do you really want to compare the 90s froncourts Malone faced to the ones Giannis did this year? Do you want to compare the spacing and rules? Your boy isn't running over Shaq, Rodman, or Robinson. And there's no 4 corner spacing... everybody is crowded in the paint.

I think any body with a shred of common sense could see that Giannis's play style would be totally compromised in that environment. Malones jumper looks like Currys by comparison and that was necessary to overcome GOAT frontcourt and packed paints.


Malone's playoff efficiency was weak even relative to his peers who were play under the same rules. It was also weak relative to what he did in the regular season.

The bucks are a weak 3pt shooting team. Their 3rd option Holiday had a 44% TS in the Finals. Let's not pretend Giannis is playing with the splash brothers.

[tpols]

Malone's playoff efficiency was weak even relative to his peers who were play under the same rules. It was also weak relative to what he did in the regular season.

The bucks are a weak 3pt shooting team. Their 3rd option Holiday had a 44% TS in the Finals. Let's not pretend Giannis is playing with the splash brothers.

The spacing is still far better than 90s teams. Citing one player doesn't mean much. The fact of the matter is teams had to respect 3pt shooters out to 25 feet on the bucks. Even brook lopez bricked everything but anybody that watched saw his defender was hurling himself at Brook to contest the shot. That spacing power is crucial. Even with misses... spacing still exists. Jazz didn't have that.

And again the rules and frontcourt are just night and day. Giannis can't run Rodman over 1v1. Rodman held Shaq down, Giannis would be a snack. He'd draw charge after charge. And clap it up afterward.

Malone led his team in the late 90s to beat more superstars and great teams than anybody the bucks beat this year. You're not using any context in your analysis. Let the bucks face MJ dynasty Bulls with Rodman on G and all this 66 TS talk disappears.

And MJ ain't losing all these close one possession games like Chris Paul. So it would just be another L.

[tontoz]

The spacing is still far better than 90s teams. Citing one player doesn't mean much. The fact of the matter is teams had to respect 3pt shooters out to 25 feet on the bucks. Even brook lopez bricked everything but anybody that watched saw his defender was hurling himself at Brook to contest the shot. That spacing power is crucial. Even with misses... spacing still exists. Jazz didn't have that.

And again the rules and frontcourt are just night and day. Giannis can't run Rodman over 1v1. Rodman held Shaq down, Giannis would be a snack. He'd draw charge after charge. And clap it up afterward.

Malone led his team in the late 90s to beat more superstars and great teams than anybody the bucks beat this year. You're not using any context in your analysis. Let the bucks face MJ dynasty Bulls with Rodman on G and all this 66 TS talk disappears.

Malone did have John Stockton, a consensus top 5 pg feeding him on fast breaks and pick and rolls. Giannis is doing his damage without being fed by an elite pg.

Giannis shot 48% from 3-16 feet in these playoffs which would be good for anyone, especially a big. A 3rd of his shots came from that distance. I doubt Malone could do much better than that.

[tpols]

Malone did have John Stockton, a consensus top 5 pg feeding him on fast breaks and pick and rolls. Giannis is doing his damage without being fed by an elite pg.

Giannis shot 48% from 3-16 feet in these playoffs which would be good for anyone, especially a big. A 3rd of his shots came from that distance. I doubt Malone could do much better than that.

Kris Middleton produced better than John Stockton and fed Giannis off the PnR spectacularly. Jrue literally had the series defining steal and alley oop to giannis. He shot bad but his playmaking was fine.

Look... you're not addressing any of the points. Competition, spacing, and rules. You know damn well the dynasty Bulls were far better than these suns. You know damn well Rodman and the Bulls defense that Malone had to overcome to win would be an absolute nightmare for the Bucks compared to rookie playoff ayton and bridges. You know damn well the '98 Jazz would beat this suns team, and this Buck team would lose to the dynasty Jordan Bulls.

Why are you acting like you don't?

[bobopenguin]

I love KG, if i have to choose between KG and Giannis today to start a team, i will take KG.

[tontoz]

Kris Middleton produced better than John Stockton and fed Giannis off the PnR spectacularly. Jrue literally had the series defining steal and alley oop to giannis. He shot bad but his playmaking was fine.

Look... you're not addressing any of the points. Competition, spacing, and rules. You know damn well the dynasty Bulls were far better than these suns. You know damn well Rodman and the Bulls defense that Malone had to overcome to win would be an absolute nightmare for the Bucks compared to rookie playoff ayton and bridges. You know damn well the '98 Jazz would beat this suns team, and this Buck team would lose to the dynasty Jordan Bulls.

Why are you acting like you don't?


Are you really trying to compare Stockton's playmaking ability to Middleton? :lol

The Bucks faced last year's finalist in the first round. They didn't have an easy road by any measure and the league is much deeper now than it was then.

Nobody other than Zion can score inside with the volume and efficiency of giannis.Everyone is playing under the same rules.

For his career in the playoffs Malone shot 38.5% from 3-10 feet and 31.1% from 10-16 feet. He wasn't exactly Dirk.he didn't face Jordan's bulls in every playoff series. He played them in only 12 of his career 193 playoff games.

This postseason Giannis shot 47% from 3-10 feet and 49% from 10-16 feet. A third of his shots were from 3-16 feet.

[1987_Lakers]

Are you really trying to compare Stockton's playmaking ability to Middleton? :lol

The Bucks faced last year's finalist in the first round. They didn't have an easy road by any measure and the league is much deeper now than it was then.

Nobody other than Zion can score inside with the volume and efficiency of giannis.Everyone is playing under the same rules.

For his career in the playoffs Malone shot 38.5% from 3-10 feet and 31.1% from 10-16 feet. He wasn't exactly Dirk.

This postseason Giannis shot 47% from 3-10 feet and 49% from 10-16 feet. A third of his shots were from 3-16 feet.

Dude is butthurt cause he called Siakam a better player than Giannis and got called on it.

[MadDog]

Kris Middleton produced better than John Stockton and fed Giannis off the PnR spectacularly. Jrue literally had the series defining steal and alley oop to giannis. He shot bad but his playmaking was fine.

Look... you're not addressing any of the points. Competition, spacing, and rules. You know damn well the dynasty Bulls were far better than these suns. You know damn well Rodman and the Bulls defense that Malone had to overcome to win would be an absolute nightmare for the Bucks compared to rookie playoff ayton and bridges. You know damn well the '98 Jazz would beat this suns team, and this Buck team would lose to the dynasty Jordan Bulls.

Why are you acting like you don't?

Because if they do, their narratives crumble. Giannis is visibly better to me, but some of these posters talk like this shit isnt close. Lol they'll quote stats and literally pretend circumstance and rules don't matter. I said pages ago that defenses were better. And that Milwuakee would have lost to Chicago - the 93, 97 and 98 versions. Nobody wanted to argue that though. Just play it safe and post the numbers! :oldlol:

[tontoz]

It is funny how people use a different era as an excuse. Barkley played in the same era, didn't have an elite pg feeding him and rarely had as much talent around him as Malone.

Yet somehow his playoff TS was 6% higher than Malone.

[tpols]

Because if they do, their narratives crumble. Giannis is visibly better to me, but some of these posters talk like this shit isnt close. Lol they'll quote stats and literally pretend circumstance and rules don't matter. I said pages ago that defenses were better. And that Milwuakee would have lost to Chicago - the 93, 97 and 98 versions. Nobody wanted to argue that though. Just play it safe and post the numbers! :oldlol:

Yup... context be damned. I have it Barkley > KG >= Dirk > Malone >= Giannis, but I just want to hear a solid argument. Beating baby Trae hawks and Booker Suns is just such a joke compared to going up against dynasty Bulls, Lakers, Heat etc.

Bucks lose to all those teams quite handily. But we live in a simple world where reason and logic are tossed aside for pure arbitrary outcome.

[tontoz]

Yup... context be damned. I have it Barkley > KG > Dirk > Malone >= Giannis, but I just want to hear a solid argument. Beating baby Trae hawks and Booker Suns is just such a joke compared to going up against dynasty Bulls, Lakers, Heat etc. Bucks lose to all those teams quite handily. But we live in a simple world where reason and logic are tossed aside for pure arbitrary outcome.

Any comment on this?

"This postseason Giannis shot 47% from 3-10 feet and 49% from 10-16 feet. A third of his shots were from 3-16 feet."


But but but those shots are so much easier in this era....:facepalm

[2much_knowledge]

In paste to..... but not over them just yet

[HoopsNY]

Malone did have John Stockton, a consensus top 5 pg feeding him on fast breaks and pick and rolls. Giannis is doing his damage without being fed by an elite pg.

Giannis shot 48% from 3-16 feet in these playoffs which would be good for anyone, especially a big. A 3rd of his shots came from that distance. I doubt Malone could do much better than that.

Did Malone really "need" Stockton, though? In the 1989-90 season, Stockton missed 4 games. Malone averaged 26/9/4/2/1 on 53%. Small sample size, yea.

Then in the 1997-98 season, Stockton missed 18 games. Malone put up 25/11/4/1/1 on 52%. This is at the age of 34.

People forget that a 36 year old Malone, with all the juggernauts in the Western Conference, led the Jazz to a 55 win season and in the 1st round, and put up 50/12 on 56% in game 1 against Seattle.

Giannis is scoring 50 in the finals when the league is putting up 111 PPG in the playoffs. Malone dropped 50 when the league was putting up just 92 PPG in the playoffs in 2000 with some of the toughest defenses and slower paced games in league history.

[HoopsNY]

Are you really trying to compare Stockton's playmaking ability to Middleton? :lol

The Bucks faced last year's finalist in the first round. They didn't have an easy road by any measure and the league is much deeper now than it was then.

Nobody other than Zion can score inside with the volume and efficiency of giannis.Everyone is playing under the same rules.

For his career in the playoffs Malone shot 38.5% from 3-10 feet and 31.1% from 10-16 feet. He wasn't exactly Dirk.he didn't face Jordan's bulls in every playoff series. He played them in only 12 of his career 193 playoff games.

This postseason Giannis shot 47% from 3-10 feet and 49% from 10-16 feet. A third of his shots were from 3-16 feet.

The playoff numbers you're mentioning begin in 1997, though. Malone was already 33 by then.

We don't have data that precedes that. But your numbers seem to be off, I have Malone shooting 41% from 3-10 and 39% from 10-16 ft. And you also failed to mention that he shot 45% from 16-29 ft, which accounted for nearly 35% of his FGA. And again, these numbers don't include the majority of his playoff career (his prime).

This isn't some mystery. Malone was a far better shooter than Giannis is.

[tontoz]

The playoff numbers you're mentioning begin in 1997, though. Malone is already 33 by then.

We don't have data that precedes that. But your numbers seem to be off, I have Malone shooting 41% from 3-10 and 39% from 10-16 ft. And you also failed to mention that he shot 45% from 16-29 ft, which accounted for nearly 35% of his FGA. .

That's in the regular season. His numbers drop off hard in the playoffs.

40% isn't much to brag about anyway. Giannis did that during the regular season this year

Giannis doesn't shoot much from 16-3pt. Frankly I wish he would stop shooting 3s unless it is the end of the clock.

Guys jumpers typically age well. It is the other parts of the game that suffer due to age. TS was available for all of Malones playoff games and, outside of '92, the numbers aren't pretty.

[HoopsNY]

That's in the regular season. His numbers drop off hard in the playoffs.

40% isn't much to brag about anyway. Giannis did that during the regular season this year

Giannis doesn't shoot much from 16-3pt. Frankly I wish he would stop shooting 3s unless it is the end of the clock.

Guys jumpers typically age well. It is the other parts of the game that suffer due to age. TS was available for all of Malones playoff games and, outside of '92, the numbers aren't pretty.

That is true to an extent. It still ignores that we don't have that specific data prior to 1997. In addition, Malone shot 44% from 16-29ft and 35% of his FGA came from that area.

I'm not sure why this is even a point of conversation, though. Malone was a far better shooter than Giannis is.

[RRR3]

That is true to an extent. It still ignores that we don't have that specific data prior to 1997. In addition, Malone shot 44% from 16-29ft and 35% of his FGA came from that area.

I'm not sure why this is even a point of conversation, though. Malone was a far better shooter than Giannis is.
Giannis is a far better scorer so who cares?

[tontoz]

That is true to an extent. It still ignores that we don't have that specific data prior to 1997. In addition, Malone shot 44% from 16-29ft and 35% of his FGA came from that area.

I'm not sure why this is even a point of conversation, though. Malone was a far better shooter than Giannis is.

Yeah but is shooting long 2s at 44% really hurting the defense? Not really. I wouldn't want my big taking long 2s unless he is named Dirk.

It isn't a question of who is the best jump shooter. These guys are acting like the only way Giannis can score is getting all the way to the rim. He has proven that is not the case.

[HoopsNY]

Giannis is a far better scorer so who cares?

I don't believe that he is "a far better" scorer. Are we really going to ignore context here? Giannis carries, travels, or barrels his way to the basket where defenders are not allowed to touch him an overwhelming majority of the time.

In addition, this is the era of spacing. Put Malone in the exact same circumstances and he's dominating as much, if not more than Giannis is/has been over the last four seasons. Giannis is averaging 28 PPG the last four seasons. Malone did that for about 11 seasons in a row. How is that being forgotten?

Malone also has multiple seasons where his FG% was 54-56%. I laugh at the idea that Giannis is a "far better scorer", especially when he has a lack of high quality defensive big men sitting in the paint and rules that cater to his dominance.

[RRR3]

I don't believe that he is "a far better" scorer. Are we really going to ignore context here? Giannis carries, travels, or barrels his way to the basket where defenders are not allowed to touch him an overwhelming majority of the time.

In addition, this is the era of spacing. Put Malone in the exact same circumstances and he's dominating as much, if not more than Giannis is/has been over the last four seasons. Giannis is averaging 28 PPG the last four seasons. Malone did that for about 11 seasons in a row. How is that being forgotten?

Malone also has multiple seasons where his FG% was 54-56%. I laugh at the idea that Giannis is a "far better scorer", especially when he has a lack of high quality defensive big men sitting in the paint and rules that cater to his dominance.
Giannis doesn’t turn into a dreadful brick artist in the playoffs, Malone did.

[tontoz]

I don't believe that he is "a far better" scorer. Are we really going to ignore context here? Giannis carries, travels, or barrels his way to the basket where defenders are not allowed to touch him an overwhelming majority of the time.

In addition, this is the era of spacing. Put Malone in the exact same circumstances and he's dominating as much, if not more than Giannis is/has been over the last four seasons. Giannis is averaging 28 PPG the last four seasons. Malone did that for about 11 seasons in a row. How is that being forgotten?

Malone also has multiple seasons where his FG% was 54-56%. I laugh at the idea that Giannis is a "far better scorer", especially when he has a lack of high quality defensive big men sitting in the paint and rules that cater to his dominance.

Malone did a lot of his damage on the break. That would be harder now. Teams put less emphasis on offensive rebounding and are more concerned with transition D.

Malone didn't have the length of Giannis, didn't jump well and didn't handle the ball as well as Giannis. His jumper was better but teams would happily let him shoot those jumpers all day.

The league is much deeper now than it was then. Back then there were very few foreign players. Now the league is filled with them. Deeper talent pool.

Not sure how Malone would do trying to chase guys off the 3 pt line or defending guards on switches. He wasn't a shotblocker at all. Pretty sure guys would blow past him without fear or rain 3s in his grill.

[StrongLurk]

Not really a valid comparison. Kawhi was drafted by a dynasty and got to the Finals primarily because of his strong teammates that already had several rings. He didn't even average 20 ppg until age 24, the same age that Giannis won his first MVP. Then he got traded to a team that won 59 games without him.

Giannis was drafted by a bad team that won only 15 games in his rookie year. He developed his game and won 2 MVPs prior to winning a ring. Their team success is primarily because of him. They built the team around him.

Giannis simply needs to do more...plain and simple.

He is clearly on a amazing trajectory, but he's not done enough. Again if he retires tomorrow, he's top 30.

To clarify, he can EASILY climb up the all time rankings even if he never wins another ring or FMVP...every year that he plays at an all-nba first team level, he will climb up another 3-4 spots.

[tontoz]

Giannis simply needs to do more...plain and simple.

He is clearly on a amazing trajectory, but he's not done enough. Again if he retires tomorrow, he's top 30.

To clarify, he can EASILY climb up the all time rankings even if he never wins another ring or FMVP...every year that he plays at an all-nba first team level, he will climb up another 3-4 spots.

At age 26 I take Giannis over all those guys but I agree longevity does matter in terms of a career.

That is one of the reasons I don't rank Isiah Thomas that high all time. Bird gets dinged for that same reason. Short career.

[basketballcat]

Giannis' ring vs Dirk's ring

playoff WS: Giannis 3.73 (#49 all time) vs Dirk 5.39 (#3 all time). Dikembe (2001, did not win), Billups (2005), and Barkley (1993, did not win) had higher WS than Giannis.
playoff VORP: Giannis 2.4 (#22 all time) vs Dirk 2.75 (#10 all time). Barkley (1993, did not win) almost matched Giannis with 2.31 (#25)

Giannis' ring is especially weak. Had Durant not stepped on the 3-pt line, bye Giannis. Had the Nets been at full strength, bye Giannis. He's lucky that his opponent was an equally lucky Suns, facing a Finals virgin Ayton who averaged 1.1 blocks in the playoffs. If Kawhi & Ibaka were healthy, bye Giannis.

So, "quality" is precisely why Dirk >> Giannis. The only player mentioned here that Giannis has surpassed is Barkley.

[tpols]

Giannis' ring vs Dirk's ring

playoff WS: 3.73 (#49 all time) vs Dirk 5.39 (#3 all time). Dikembe (2001, did not win), Billups (2005), and Barkley (1993, did not win) had higher WS than Giannis.
playoff VORP: Giannis 2.4 (#22 all time) vs Dirk 2.75 (#10 all time). Barkley (1993, did not win) almost matched Giannis with 2.31 (#25)

Giannis' ring is especially weak. Had Durant not stepped on the 3-pt line, bye Giannis. Had the Nets been at full strength, bye Giannis. He's lucky that his opponent was an equally lucky Suns, facing a Finals virgin Ayton who averaged 1.1 blocks in the playoffs. If Kawhi & Ibaka were healthy, bye Giannis.

So, "quality" is precisely why Dirk >> Giannis. The only player mentioned here than Giannis was surpassed is Barkley.

Hilarious.

It amazes me people think all rings are worth the same. The hawks-suns combo is probably the weakest conference finals and finals opponent line up ever. While Dirk had to go through a hell level gauntlet to win.

You can't make it up. But most people ignore all context, can't explain themselves, and are flat out dumb.

Is what it is.

[tontoz]

It isn't just about this ring. Giannis is a 2 time MVP already. Let's not forget there were major questions about whether he would even be able to play in the finals after that knee injury.

The Nets? It would have been a long shot for them to be at full strength. KD had just missed 2 years due to injury. Kyrie has been an injury prone flake his whole career. Harden came into camp fat and out of shape.

Drawing the previous year's finalist, the team that eliminated them last year, in the first round wasn't exactly lucky.

Over the last 3 years the Bucks won 162 games in the regular season, easily most in the league, and Giannis is the engine behind that. The only team close is Denver at 154.

Dirk has his share of embarrassing playoff exits. I seem to remember a 67 win 1 seed losing to 8 seed GS. Ring any bells?

[basketballcat]

It isn't just about this ring. Giannis is a 2 time MVP already.
Was Giannis really the best player in 2019, one of his MVP years? Kawhi disagrees. Playoffs > regular season. Ask Steve Nash.

[tontoz]

Was Giannis really the best player in 2019, one of his MVP years? Kawhi disagrees. Playoffs > regular season. Ask Steve Nash.


You mean the guy who joined a team that won 59 games before he got there, then won 53 after he left? The team that was 17-5 without him while he was there?

Uhhhh....ok

[basketballcat]

You mean the guy who joined a team that won 59 games before he got there, then won 53 after he left? The team that was 17-5 without him while he was there?

Uhhhh....ok

I mean the guy who saved the Raptors in round 2, beat Giannis in round 3, had the 8th highest single season playoff VORP, and the 6th highest single season season playoff WS. Yeah, that guy. The one who had one of the most alpha rings ever.

As for Dirk vs Giannis, Giannis has an All NBA first defensive team help in JRue Holiday. He gifted him a game. Like I said, double asterisk ring.

[DMAVS41]

Not yet, but that is almost for sure coming...

It isn't even really about the ring either...obviously getting the title and leading a team like that matter, but his level of play in the playoffs this year elevates him into elite company.

Now it is just longevity really.

And no, all rings are not equal...and the competition this Bucks team faced was rather weak. While Giannis played great, this was not the same as Duncan/Dirk/Hakeem level carrying jobs and Giannis certainly didn't face the kind of competition the 11 Mavs did.

Every great player ever, especially those not playing on super teams, are going to have "embarrassing playoff exits"...unless it becomes a pattern of meltdowns or blown series or lack of ability to stay healthy like CP3, for example, it shouldn't factor in much....they are outliers.

Dirk's 07 series was an outlier. Giannis last year against the Heat likely is an outlier...but that is why longevity matters. To compare to some of the top 20 or so players ever...you need to do great things for a long time. Dirk did 26/10/3 in the playoffs over 12 years...with two trips to the finals and the Mavs during that time won over 50...11 straight seasons. Only 3 other franchises have done that...the Duncan led Spurs, Magic/Kareem Lakers, and the Russell led Celtics.

It isn't a knock on Giannis, but I just need to see like 5 or so more great seasons to vault him clearly above the guys in question.

[tontoz]

I mean the guy who saved the Raptors in round 2, beat Giannis in round 3, had the 8th highest single season playoff VORP, and the 6th highest single season season playoff WS. Yeah, that guy. The one who had one of the most alpha rings ever.

As for Dirk vs Giannis, Giannis has an All NBA first defensive team help in JRue Holiday. He gifted him a game. Like I said, double asterisk ring.

MVP is a regular season award that Mr Load Management will never win. Without that 59 win team behind him in LA the results have been a little different.

Jrue shot like ass the entire postseason. His 44% TS in the finals was the worst on either team.

Giannis was the DPOY himself not long ago in case you forgot.

[Pointguard]

And no, all rings are not equal...and the competition this Bucks team faced was rather weak. While Giannis played great, this was not the same as Duncan/Dirk/Hakeem level carrying jobs and Giannis certainly didn't face the kind of competition the 11 Mavs did.


The Mavs didn't face great competition either. Lebron played horrifically and Kobe also had one of his worst series ever as well. As the leader goes - so does the team. Both Lebron and Kobe played like they were mentally injured. Durant played one his best series ever against the Bucks - a full seven plus points per game higher than he did when he played against the Mavs. All three of those guys outscore Dirk a lopsided majority of the time but weren't close in those series. Those mental meltdowns just kill a team. Still haunts Lebron til this day.

Hakeem went thru the toughtest teams and best centers in his two year run. Sobeit, I don't have Giannis as greater than the other top PF's yet because he does need some years in his prime to fully grasp his dimensions. I projected Giannis here on these boards, before he was drafted, as beating out Hakeem as best foreign player. I think he's capable of catching Duncan. Maybe not in ring count but its not out of reach as an overall assessment.

[houston]

tontoz is right on money with alot of stuff he saying. Giannis was really the only great PF that won with suspect cast. Middleton and Jrue played very up and down in the postseason. Giannis situation was very similar to Hakeem 94 or lesser extent Wallace 04. All of them was all-nba/all-star/all-defense bigs who was clearly the team best player. They didn't have no other all-star select that year even though they had all-star quality help.

The reason I didn't put Duncan cause Robinson was HOF for 2 of his championships plus Manu was all-star in 05/Parker was all-star in 07 with Finals MVP. Clearly Parker/Manu are wayyyyyy better players than Middleton and Jrue. Jrue and Middleton ain't making no all-nba/all-star teams on constant basis no time like that in the future. Even Dirk had Marion/Kidd those two are on another level than Bucks other 2 best players.

[basketballcat]

The Mavs didn't face great competition either.
Wait, what?

In 2011, Dirk went through the Thunder, the Lakers, and the Heat.

Thunder: Durant (All NBA first team), Westbrook (All NBA second team)
Lakers: Kobe (All NBA first team, All NBA defensive first team), Gasol (All NBA second team)
Heat: Lebron (All NBA first team, 3rd in MVP voting, All defensive first team), Wade (All NBA second team), Bosh (all star), Allen (all star)

Dirk had no all-NBA or all-star teammates.

Giannis went through 1/3 of the Net's trio, dodged Kawhi & Ibaka, and faced a finals virgin in Ayton who averaged 1.1 blocks in the playoffs.

Let me reiterate my analysis.


Giannis' ring vs Dirk's ring

playoff WS: Giannis 3.73 (#49 all time) vs Dirk 5.39 (#3 all time). Dikembe (2001, did not win), Billups (2005), and Barkley (1993, did not win) had higher WS than Giannis.
playoff VORP: Giannis 2.4 (#22 all time) vs Dirk 2.75 (#10 all time). Barkley (1993, did not win) almost matched Giannis with 2.31 (#25)

Giannis' ring is especially weak. Had Durant not stepped on the 3-pt line, bye Giannis. Had the Nets been at full strength, bye Giannis. He's lucky that his opponent was an equally lucky Suns, facing a Finals virgin Ayton who averaged 1.1 blocks in the playoffs. If Kawhi & Ibaka were healthy, bye Giannis.

So, "quality" is precisely why Dirk >> Giannis. The only player mentioned here that Giannis has surpassed is Barkley.

It's not even remotely close.

[DMAVS41]

The Mavs didn't face great competition either. Lebron played horrifically and Kobe also had one of his worst series ever as well. As the leader goes - so does the team. Both Lebron and Kobe played like they were mentally injured. Durant played one his best series ever against the Bucks - a full seven plus points per game higher than he did when he played against the Mavs. All three of those guys outscore Dirk a lopsided majority of the time but weren't close in those series. Those mental meltdowns just kill a team. Still haunts Lebron til this day.

Hakeem went thru the toughtest teams and best centers in his two year run. Sobeit, I don't have Giannis as greater than the other top PF's yet because he does need some years in his prime to fully grasp his dimensions. I projected Giannis here on these boards, before he was drafted, as beating out Hakeem as best foreign player. I think he's capable of catching Duncan. Maybe not in ring count but its not out of reach as an overall assessment.

I disagree with your assessment as it removes the Dirk/Mavs from the equation as if the other players played in a vacuum and weren't impacted at all by playing the opposition.

The Blazers/Lakers/Thunder/Heat is orders of magnitude more difficult than the teams the Bucks faced.

In addition, Middleton is a better player than Terry...and I'd favor the Bucks supporting cast as better, but not in a significant way.

[DMAVS41]

tontoz is right on money with alot of stuff he saying. Giannis was really the only great PF that won with suspect cast. Middleton and Jrue played very up and down in the postseason. Giannis situation was very similar to Hakeem 94 or lesser extent Wallace 04. All of them was all-nba/all-star/all-defense bigs who was clearly the team best player. They didn't have no other all-star select that year even though they had all-star quality help.

The reason I didn't put Duncan cause Robinson was HOF for 2 of his championships plus Manu was all-star in 05/Parker was all-star in 07 with Finals MVP. Clearly Parker/Manu are wayyyyyy better players than Middleton and Jrue. Jrue and Middleton ain't making no all-nba/all-star teams on constant basis no time like that in the future. Even Dirk had Marion/Kidd those two are on another level than Bucks other 2 best players.

I don't know what version of Kidd and Marion you think were on that team, but you are over-rating them.

Hard to compare the teams, but Middleton was the best player outside of Giannis/Dirk on either team pretty easily.

[DMAVS41]

Wait, what?

In 2011, Dirk went through the Thunder, the Lakers, and the Heat.

Thunder: Durant (All NBA first team), Westbrook (All NBA second team)
Lakers: Kobe (All NBA first team, All NBA defensive first team), Gasol (All NBA second team)
Heat: Lebron (All NBA first team, 3rd in MVP voting, All defensive first team), Wade (All NBA second team), Bosh (all star), Allen (all star)

Dirk had no all-NBA or all-star teammates.

Giannis went through 1/3 of the Net's trio, dodged Kawhi & Ibaka, and faced a finals virgin in Ayton who averaged 1.1 blocks in the playoffs.

Let me reiterate my analysis.



It's not even remotely close.

Yea, he's one of the posters that has to take away credit from Dirk/Mavs because what happened in 2011 doesn't make sense based on their view of what works in the NBA. No amount of logic or objective analysis will convince people like him of what actually went down...

[tontoz]

Dirk's 2011 run was epic. No getting around that, one of the best carry jobs ever. Some of his teammates that year used to be All-Stars but were close to washed by that point. But let's be real part of that story is the Heat wetting the bed. Lebron got outscored by Jason Terry.

But when comparing players one postseason run isn't the be all end all.

[tontoz]

Yea, he's one of the posters that has to take away credit from Dirk/Mavs because what happened in 2011 doesn't make sense based on their view of what works in the NBA. No amount of logic or objective analysis will convince people like him of what actually went down...

I know you aren't talking about me. When have i ever taken credit away from their 2011 title? If anything i have defended Dirk over the years and mentioned his 26/10 postseason production several times.

[HoopsNY]

Giannis doesn’t turn into a dreadful brick artist in the playoffs, Malone did.

This kind of analysis leads to awful conclusions. Up until this year, Giannis was a known choke artist, so it automatically wreaks of recency bias.

Milwaukee faced a depleted Nets team in the second round, whose defense was already horrid when at full strength. They then faced the Hawks in the ECF, another horrible defensive team. They then faced a young Suns team that had no business being in the finals to begin with, largely due to the major injuries that teams like the Clippers and Lakers faced.

And I notice neither tontoz or RRR3 are acknowledging the fact that Giannis literally depends on no calls in this era, coupled with the fact that this is fast paced league, lacking defense, with a lot of spacing. He literally palms/carries the ball the majority of the time. He can barrel to the basket and not get called for an offensive foul.

Malone was playing against incredible defenses like the Sonics with GP/Kemp, Houston with Hakeem, Spurs with Duncan/Robinson or Rodman/Robinson, or all-time great Chicago Bulls teams with their elite defenses.

How do those defenses stack up against the Heat, Nets, Hawks, and Suns?

No context once again.

[tontoz]

This kind of analysis leads to awful conclusions. Up until this year, Giannis was a known choke artist, so it automatically wreaks of recency bias.

Milwaukee faced a depleted Nets team in the second round, whose defense was already horrid when at full strength. They then faced the Hawks in the ECF, another horrible defensive team. They then faced a young Suns team that had no business being in the finals to begin with, largely due to the major injuries that teams like the Clippers and Lakers faced.

And I notice neither tontoz or RRR3 are acknowledging the fact that Giannis literally depends on no calls in this era, coupled with the fact that this is fast paced league, lacking defense, with a lot of spacing. He literally palms/carries the ball the majority of the time. He can barrel to the basket and not get called for an offensive foul.

Malone was playing against incredible defenses like the Sonics with GP/Kemp, Houston with Hakeem, Spurs with Duncan/Robinson or Rodman/Robinson, or all-time great Chicago Bulls teams with their elite defenses.

How do those defenses stack up against the Heat, Nets, Hawks, and Suns?

No context once again.



Are you trying to say Giannis choked in the playoffs last year when he averaged 27/14/6 with a 61% TS?

LOL at using the rules excuse. Players have to play according to the rules at that time. Giannis doesnt have a special set of rules. He has the agility and ball handling ability to get around defenders without getting called for a charge. His spin move is his best move. If someone cuts off his drive he can spin for a layup unless another defender is there when he spins.

All the other players in the league are playing under the same rules but only Zion can score inside with the volume and efficiency of Giannis.

The Suns had the 2nd best record in the league, only 1 game behind the Jazz, in the tougher conference. They swept the Nuggets easily. They were healthy and the favorites going in to the Finals. It isn't like they were a 6 seed. And the Bucks faced last year's finalist in the first round.

[houston]

I don't know what version of Kidd and Marion you think were on that team, but you are over-rating them.

Hard to compare the teams, but Middleton was the best player outside of Giannis/Dirk on either team pretty easily.



Dirk was back end of his prime.Terry 20 ppg quality 6th man. Kidd was basically 3 and D guy with play making skills. Marion still had gas in the tank third in the team in scoring he was match up with KD/Lebron. Both most importantly was starters on a championship squad. Actually you can compare both teams. MVP caliber Pf with all-defense/all-star quality PG plus all-star quality SF. Then you can add all-defense quality center with Lopez/Chandler. Dirk nor Greek had all-star select teammates the year they won the championship. But like I always said no team never won championship without 2 all-star quality players.

It no overrating them they played a very vital role for the Mavericks to win championship.

[Jasper]

Why not? He's already got more top-tier hardware (Championship, FMVP, MVP, DPOY)

Only 1 All-NBA 1st Team less, and he's still got many, many years left.

all star MVP as well. and 2x MVP--- he is all ready in the Hall , and it took years for the OP competition to get there...
Giannis has a bright future.

[tpols]

I disagree with your assessment as it removes the Dirk/Mavs from the equation as if the other players played in a vacuum and weren't impacted at all by playing the opposition.

The Blazers/Lakers/Thunder/Heat is orders of magnitude more difficult than the teams the Bucks faced.

In addition, Middleton is a better player than Terry...and I'd favor the Bucks supporting cast as better, but not in a significant way.

So your basically saying what we been saying... Dirks competition was twice as tough and he had less help. That's why this thread is asinine. Karl Malone beat tougher teams in '98 than the bucks did this year too. Ring counting without context is wack. Dirks 2011 performance is worth 2-3 regular rings especially given they rigged him out of 2006 too.

[HoopsNY]

Malone did a lot of his damage on the break. That would be harder now. Teams put less emphasis on offensive rebounding and are more concerned with transition D.

Malone was an excellent post up player with an excellent fade away and turnaround jumper. He most absolutely was not dependent on transition offense, though it was one of his best assets.

It reminds me of people who think that Clyde was only a great scorer because of transition offense.


Malone didn't have the length of Giannis, didn't jump well and didn't handle the ball as well as Giannis. His jumper was better but teams would happily let him shoot those jumpers all day.


Giannis is more athletically gifted than Malone. No argument there. And he is a better ball handler. I admit that as well. However, it goes back to my point in that Giannis' ability to score is heavily dependent on him not being called for violations. Like it or not, it's true. If Giannis is called consistently for traveling or carrying, then his ball handling is ineffective.


The league is much deeper now than it was then. Back then there were very few foreign players. Now the league is filled with them. Deeper talent pool.


I don't believe that matters. Malone was a great player in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. That's three decades where the talent pool shifted as guys left/entered the league. In 2000, he was 4th in MVP voting, an All-Star, and All-NBA 2nd Team, at the age of 36. The "talent pool", even if it's true, means nothing. Malone shines in any era with any talent pool.


Not sure how Malone would do trying to chase guys off the 3 pt line or defending guards on switches. He wasn't a shotblocker at all. Pretty sure guys would blow past him without fear or rain 3s in his grill.

This pre-supposes someone like Malone can't make defensive adjustments. If PJ Tucker can, why can't Malone?

[HoopsNY]

Are you trying to say Giannis choked in the playoffs last year when he averaged 27/14/6 with a 61% TS?

Are we gonna pretend that the series against Miami didn't happen last year?

2020 vs. Orlando: 31/16/6 on 59/39/63
2020 vs. Miami: 22/11/5 on 50/21/54

Milwaukee lost that series 4-1 and the one game that they did win, Giannis left early with an injury.


LOL at using the rules excuse. Players have to play according to the rules at that time. Giannis doesnt have a special set of rules. He has the agility and ball handling ability to get around defenders without getting called for a charge. His spin move is his best move. If someone cuts off his drive he can spin for a layup unless another defender is there when he spins.


Giannis travels and carries bruh. Stop acting like that doesn't happen.


The Suns had the 2nd best record in the league, only 1 game behind the Jazz, in the tougher conference. They swept the Nuggets easily. They were healthy and the favorites going in to the Finals. It isn't like they were a 6 seed. And the Bucks faced last year's finalist in the first round.

The Nuggets didn't have Jamal Murray, are we forgetting that? The Suns aren't the Clippers or Lakers. They lucked out big time and the entire league, media, and fan base understands that this was a unique year where injuries played a significant role in the outcomes of series. You can't tell me the absence of AD, Kawhi, Zubac, Ibaka, and Murray doesn't matter.

The Heat were one of the weakest finals opponents in league history. Because Milwaukee faced them in the first round doesn't mean much.

[tontoz]

Malone's percentages on those turnaround jumpers wasn't great. His percentages outside of 3 feet tell the story. Those are exactly the shots that teams discourage today, just like the long 2s. Teams don't post up a lot because of analytics. His 40% shooting from 3-16 feet isn't going to impress the stats guys.

Giannis plays with the same rules as the rest of the league. There is only one guy who can score inside with the volume and efficiency of Giannis and that is Zion, another physical freak. Giannis isn't flopping to get to the line. He isn't pump faking guys into the air then jumping into them to get to the line. Plenty of other guys are doing exactly that.

Magic could have gotten called for carrying a lot but he wasn't. Get over it.

People talk about how easy it is in this era while completely ignoring that there is more talent in the league now than there was 20-30 years ago. It isn't close either.

[tontoz]

Are we gonna pretend that the series against Miami didn't happen last year?

2020 vs. Orlando: 31/16/6 on 59/39/63
2020 vs. Miami: 22/11/5 on 50/21/54

.

Was that series against Miami choking or was it a great defensive team taking advantage of a predictable and poor offensive scheme? I'll go with the latter.


Giannis travels and carries bruh. Stop acting like that doesn't happen.

So did Magic. So what? He is seen as the greatest pg ever.


The Nuggets didn't have Jamal Murray, are we forgetting that?

No i am not forgetting that. Seems like you are forgetting that the Nuggets moved up the standings after Murray went out and beat the Blazers in the playoffs. They were winning consistently until they played the Suns and got easily dismissed.

Injuries are a story every year. Some players are injury prone. Giannis isn't. That is a big reason why the Bucks have the best record in the league over the last 3 years.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk was back end of his prime.Terry 20 ppg quality 6th man. Kidd was basically 3 and D guy with play making skills. Marion still had gas in the tank third in the team in scoring he was match up with KD/Lebron. Both most importantly was starters on a championship squad. Actually you can compare both teams. MVP caliber Pf with all-defense/all-star quality PG plus all-star quality SF. Then you can add all-defense quality center with Lopez/Chandler. Dirk nor Greek had all-star select teammates the year they won the championship. But like I always said no team never won championship without 2 all-star quality players.

It no overrating them they played a very vital role for the Mavericks to win championship.

Well, you are over-rating them if you implied what you did earlier.

You are not over-rating them if all you are saying is that they played a vital role to winning the title...that is definitely true. Just like Bobby Portis played a key role in winning the title, for example.

[DMAVS41]

I know you aren't talking about me. When have i ever taken credit away from their 2011 title? If anything i have defended Dirk over the years and mentioned his 26/10 postseason production several times.

I wasn't. I was talking about Pointguard saying the 11 Mavs didn't face great competition. Hell, they were basically a tiny favorite to beat the Blazers in round 1.

People just forget...that 11 Mavs team was absolute trash without Dirk on the floor. Go look at the record and the splits...yes, guys stepped up...but even the versions of them "stepping up" doesn't turn them into All-NBA and All-Star level players it almost always takes to win.

Any objective analysis results in conceding that Blazers/Lakers/Thunder/Heat is tougher competition than what the Bucks just faced...and that is separate from a debate about Giannis and Dirk. Giannis made have played better...I don't think so initially, but I haven't thought about it much.

But the argument that they faced equal competition is pretty silly.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk's 2011 run was epic. No getting around that, one of the best carry jobs ever. Some of his teammates that year used to be All-Stars but were close to washed by that point. But let's be real part of that story is the Heat wetting the bed. Lebron got outscored by Jason Terry.

But when comparing players one postseason run isn't the be all end all.

Certainly part of the story, but I think you take away credit from what the Mavs actually did to cause Lebron to play like that. He didn't just randomly start playing poorly...the scheme Rick used combined with what Dirk/Terry did in crunch time throughout that series put a ton of pressure on Lebron in spots he wasn't comfortable in.

You could also just say similar stuff about the Bucks. The story is the Nets getting hurt, KD's toe one inch too far, Paul playing one of his worst games ever in game 4 that essentially locks the series...etc. Just don't see much of a difference...story of the Finals is Paul choking in one of the biggest games of the year. He couldn't even score double digits when it mattered most.

[DMAVS41]

So your basically saying what we been saying... Dirks competition was twice as tough and he had less help. That's why this thread is asinine. Karl Malone beat tougher teams in '98 than the bucks did this year too. Ring counting without context is wack. Dirks 2011 performance is worth 2-3 regular rings especially given they rigged him out of 2006 too.

I don't know how extreme the differences are, but yes...I think Dirk's competition was clearly more difficult and I think the help is roughly similar, but I'd rather have the Bucks team I think.

[tontoz]

Certainly part of the story, but I think you take away credit from what the Mavs actually did to cause Lebron to play like that. He didn't just randomly start playing poorly...the scheme Rick used combined with what Dirk/Terry did in crunch time throughout that series put a ton of pressure on Lebron in spots he wasn't comfortable in.

You could also just say similar stuff about the Bucks. The story is the Nets getting hurt, KD's toe one inch too far, Paul playing one of his worst games ever in game 4 that essentially locks the series...etc.


Not a valid comparison. One play or one game isn't really comparable to the best player in the game wetting the bed over a 7 game series.

Not taking away from their title but i do think the Heat went into that series, like most people, thinking that Dallas wasn't going to be a problem. Even during the series they were mocking Dirk for his illness. That was just immature. Props to Dallas for taking advantage of the opportunity though. I certainly didn't think they could do it.

I quite enjoyed it :cheers:

Paul going 5-13 for 5 turnovers his worst game ever? Come on that is an extreme exaggeration.

[DMAVS41]

Not a valid comparison. One play or one game isn't really comparable to the best player in the game wetting the bed over a 7 game series.

Not taking away from their title but i do think the Heat went into that series, like most people, thinking that Dallas wasn't going to be a problem. Even during the series they were mocking Dirk for his illness. That was just immature. Props to Dallas for taking advantage of the opportunity though. I certainly didn't think they could do it.

Paul going 5-13 for 5 turnovers his worst game ever? Come on that is an extreme exaggeration.

You are ignoring giving Mavs credit for causing that. You are saying things like "taking advantage" as if what they did...did not play a role in what happened. Obviously all the credit doesn't go to the Mavs, but your analysis is seriously lacking the other side.

Yes, that was one of Paul's worst games ever...you listing a statline that is already inflated by a meaningless layup at the end doesn't do it justice, but if you want to actually go with stats...he was 4-12 with 5 turnovers. He had two costly turnovers in the last few minutes...and iirc didn't even score the last 6 minutes (again, ignoring the meaningless layup at the end)...

I mean, what else do you call it? In one of the biggest games of his career...with his team playing easily well enough to basically lock the finals...he put up a stinker...73 ortg / 120 drtg...and choked down the stretch.

[tontoz]

Over a 7 games series pretty much any player will have a bad game, especially when guarded by an All NBA defender.

LeBron has seen a lot of defensive schemes over the years. I don't think it was the scheme alone that caused him to average less than Jason Terry.


Found this in the archives lol...






https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/.highres/HuR88.gif




Thought you might like

[DMAVS41]

The scheme definitely played a role in him averaging less than Terry. Who is saying that it "alone" caused it? Certainly not me.

I simply said that the Mavs scheme plus the crunch time play of Dirk/Terry really put a ton of pressure on Lebron in spots he wasn't comfortable in...and just ignoring that is a flawed view of what went down imo.

[tontoz]

The scheme definitely played a role in him averaging less than Terry. Who is saying that it "alone" caused it? Certainly not me.

I simply said that the Mavs scheme plus the crunch time play of Dirk/Terry really put a ton of pressure on Lebron in spots he wasn't comfortable in...and just ignoring that is a flawed view of what went down imo.

I am not ignoring it at all. Obviously they had to play good defense to beat the Heat in a series.

But lets be real Lebron is a top 2 player ever. If he is on his game the scheme won't make a huge difference without a Kawhi to defend him. I would concede that the pressure of the Finals, and facing far more resistance than he expected, played a role in his performance.

[DMAVS41]

I don't know what you mean by huge, but it isn't like Wade, Bosh, and Lebron were going to combine for 80 points per game when the scheme is to funnel the ball to Wade/Bosh. Again, of course Lebron did not play well on his own, but I don't see how that is the story of the Mavs title.

I still see no difference in then saying the story of the Bucks title is the Nets injuries.

I just don't think either of those statements are remotely accurate.

[tontoz]

I don't know what you mean by huge, but it isn't like Wade, Bosh, and Lebron were going to combine for 80 points per game when the scheme is to funnel the ball to Wade/Bosh. Again, of course Lebron did not play well on his own, but I don't see how that is the story of the Mavs title.

I still see no difference in then saying the story of the Bucks title is the Nets injuries.

I just don't think either of those statements are remotely accurate.

I didn't say it was the story of the Mavs title, especially since they had to win several tough series just to get there.

I just don't think there is a scheme that will hold Lebron to 18 ppg consistently. Some of it was scheme, some guys just stepping up and playing good D, some of it was Lebron shrinking under the gun. Bosh as well with his 50% TS.

But make no mistake i am aware that Dirk and JT were pointing the gun, and i had fun watching it.

[Pointguard]

I disagree with your assessment as it removes the Dirk/Mavs from the equation as if the other players played in a vacuum and weren't impacted at all by playing the opposition.
Wouldn't that mean that the Mavs had the greatest defense in the league? Probably ever? Lebron never played that bad in a series. If you go this route then go a long with me that Marion and Kidd had the best defensive runs ever in the playoffs at their positions. Certainly there is no other run where Lebron (was about half his usual output) 17ppg, Kobe (wasn't even leading his team), Wade (was contained), Westbrook (Riccochet Rabbit without his head). Durant shot 23% from three. In general Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Durant outscore Dirk in h2h matchups. Kobe was outscored by like 7ppg and Lebron like a dozen!!!


The Blazers/Lakers/Thunder/Heat is orders of magnitude more difficult than the teams the Bucks faced.
I agree, I never said otherwise, but folks got on Chris Paul hard when he played like Lebron and Kobe. As a leader, it affects the whole team. Chris Paul's fall off wasn't nearly as bad as Paul's.


In addition, Middleton is a better player than Terry...and I'd favor the Bucks supporting cast as better, but not in a significant way.Terry was more much more efficient than Dirk and about equal in point production in Dallas wins in the finals. Terry was very clutch. On top of that it was very hard to say who was the second best player was. There are strong arguments that it could be Kidd (3pt accuracy, steals, assist, leadership and defense) Tyson Chandler he left the team and the Mavs could not win one game in the playoffs the next year. Shawn Marion's great defense... .

[DoctorP]

KG EASILY is a more skilled player than Giannis. Other than three point shooting, KG was LITERALLY great or damn close to it at every thing else for a player his size. KG was the ORIGINAL blueprint for a positionless type of 7 foot player. Freak athletic and LEGIT great at passing, rebounding, and defending. Could defend big swingmen all the way to centers. LEGIT played as a SF, point foward, PF, and C in the league. Always in that 22-24 PPG range.

KG ALSO had an epic motor in his prime too. When u combine scoring skillset, handles, defense, passing, and rebounding as a package, he's the MOST SKILLED PF ever! When u factor his positional versatility AND numbers as a package, he's right there with Giannis as the best all around PF ever. And KG could have played MORE like Giannis. And bring up the rock more often off of rebounds. Or bring up the rock calling sets.

KG STILL did often that in his career. But he ALSO knew he could beat you so many ways skill wise, a lot of the PG's on his team (Marbury, Brandon, Cassell, Rondo all All Star caliber PG's) were more than capable of running the sets just fine. JUS saying if called on, KG could have done it AS OFTEN as Giannis. And more in a controlled, athletic (supersized G Hill or Pip version) crafty point forward version. And GOAT, Giannis AINT CLOSE to KG yet. KG has an MVP, DPOY, and a ring too. WELL OVER 20,000 points and redefined his position. Hell SET THE BLUEPRINT for a Giannis or AD to FOLLOW! And KG WOULD HAVE KD WAY MORE than Giannis did in the playoffs! JUS SAYIN!!

Sure. But Giannis is better.

[DMAVS41]

Wouldn't that mean that the Mavs had the greatest defense in the league? Probably ever? Lebron never played that bad in a series. If you go this route then go a long with me that Marion and Kidd had the best defensive runs ever in the playoffs at their positions. Certainly there is no other run where Lebron (was about half his usual output) 17ppg, Kobe (wasn't even leading his team), Wade (was contained), Westbrook (Riccochet Rabbit without his head). Durant shot 23% from three. In general Kobe, Lebron, Wade and Durant outscore Dirk in h2h matchups. Kobe was outscored by like 7ppg and Lebron like a dozen!!!

I agree, I never said otherwise, but folks got on Chris Paul hard when he played like Lebron and Kobe. As a leader, it affects the whole team. Chris Paul's fall off wasn't nearly as bad as Paul's.
Terry was more much more efficient than Dirk and about equal in point production in Dallas wins in the finals. Terry was very clutch. On top of that it was very hard to say who was the second best player was. There are strong arguments that it could be Kidd (3pt accuracy, steals, assist, leadership and defense) Tyson Chandler he left the team and the Mavs could not win one game in the playoffs the next year. Shawn Marion's great defense... .

1. Maybe if I was giving the Mavs full credit for what Lebron did in that series...although a series is rarely about one player and Wade torched the Mavs through the first 5 games. I think a fair take is a combination of both.

2. You said they didn't face great competition either...implying the competition both teams faced was similar. Glad you agree that Mavs faced much tougher competition.

3. Middleton is a better player than Terry....is what it is. You can't divorce how much easier a player like Dirk makes the game for Terry. Again, these players are not playing in a vacuum...until you understand this, you'll just continue to analyze the game poorly. That doesn't mean Terry wasn't great...he absolutely was, but Dirk level offensive players have a bigger impact than you seem able to grasp.

[fsvr54]

Sure. But Giannis is better.

Lmao, not in this universe

[Pointguard]

1. Maybe if I was giving the Mavs full credit for what Lebron did in that series...although a series is rarely about one player and Wade torched the Mavs through the first 5 games. I think a fair take is a combination of both.

2. You said they didn't face great competition either...implying the competition both teams faced was similar. Glad you agree that Mavs faced much tougher competition.
I never said much tougher. Chris Paul battled much better than Lebron and Kobe did. As in life, if you cut off the head, or leadership, you are facing a greatly reduced opposition. Durant was far superior in this years playoffs. But injuries caught Harden and Kyrie.



3. Middleton is a better player than Terry....is what it is. You can't divorce how much easier a player like Dirk makes the game for Terry. Again, these players are not playing in a vacuum...until you understand this, you'll just continue to analyze the game poorly. That doesn't mean Terry wasn't great...he absolutely was, but Dirk level offensive players have a bigger impact than you seem able to grasp.

Dirk stretched the defense some. Giannis breaks the defense. The players today (Lillard, Young, Harris, Durant, Klay, Curry) they stretched the defense at another level. Dirk never shot like they do. Giannis breaks walls. How many people do you need to build a wall? Why do you think that shooting allows for more spacing than penetration or deep post play does? Derrick Fisher wasn't a great shooter without Shaq. Kobe's shooting percentage suffered a few years after Shaq left despite his great work effort. SA had a deep post game without solid outside shooters. Rim players are the most dominant in the game. When Lebron gets to he rim he wins. When he doesn't he loses. Jason Terry had his 2nd best 3 point shooting year with Giannis when Terry was 39 years old and still hitting 1 per game. That's an 18 year career. Hmmmm.

[DMAVS41]

I never said much tougher. Chris Paul battled much better than Lebron and Kobe did. As in life, if you cut off the head, or leadership, you are facing a greatly reduced opposition. Durant was far superior in this years playoffs. But injuries caught Harden and Kyrie.


Dirk stretched the defense some. Giannis breaks the defense. The players today (Lillard, Young, Harris, Durant, Klay, Curry) they stretched the defense at another level. Dirk never shot like they do. Giannis breaks walls. How many people do you need to build a wall? Why do you think that shooting allows for more spacing than penetration or deep post play does? Derrick Fisher wasn't a great shooter without Shaq. Kobe's shooting percentage suffered a few years after Shaq left despite his great work effort. SA had a deep post game without solid outside shooters. Rim players are the most dominant in the game. When Lebron gets to he rim he wins. When he doesn't he loses. Jason Terry had his 2nd best 3 point shooting year with Giannis when Terry was 39 years old and still hitting 1 per game. That's an 18 year career. Hmmmm.

As usual, disagree with virtually everything you say.

Classifying Dirk, one of the greatest offensive forces in NBA history, as simply "he stretched the defense some"....is just laughable.

This is why I said earlier you can't talk about Dirk because you just can't grasp how a player you don't think much of had one of the best careers ever and accomplished things only an all-time great player ever could.

And while I love Giannis and definitely think he's going down as a better player than Dirk...he's not at that level on offense yet...probably won't ever get there.

[tontoz]

Dirk could make tough shots consistently. That is the bottom line with him. Being able to make tough shots is more important in the playoffs because it is harder to get to the rim or get open 3s.

Embiid said part of his improvement this year was copying some of Dirk's moves which he knew would help him in the playoffs.

[Pointguard]

As usual, disagree with virtually everything you say.
You think Dirk is a shooter like Curry? Lillard? Young? What were the things you disagree with? Its a fact. Jason Terry's shooting with Giannis? Fact.


Classifying Dirk, one of the greatest offensive forces in NBA history, as simply "he stretched the defense some"....is just laughable. My bad, I should have said "all the way?"


This is why I said earlier you can't talk about Dirk because you just can't grasp how a player you don't think much of had one of the best careers ever and accomplished things only an all-time great player ever could.
No. I pointed out a factoid. Terry shot his 2nd best year from 3point land ever with Giannis after you implied that Dirk stretched the floor for Terry unlike Giannis did for Middleton. Terry was a more consistent shooter in the finals than Dirk was. Middleton hasn't proved consistency just yet.

Maybe you can explain to me how a wall which requires three people dedicated to stopping Giannis doesn't get a shooter more open than a double team. Remind you that Giannis is a superior passer than Dirk too.


And while I love Giannis and definitely think he's going down as a better player than Dirk...he's not at that level on offense yet...probably won't ever get there.
We seen Dirk get sizzling hot over his 20 year career. In his best series I think Giannis offense was at least equal to that and he was only hot one game and he isn't in his prime yet. And this on offense alone. Dirk has never had the RS he's had. Nor the final's he's had. But there is room for longevity.

[tanibanana]

CLEARLY he will surpass Dirk, Malone, Barkley, Garnett.
But it will happen later in his career. His All-NBA & All-Star is still few.
But as of CURRENTLY, he has NOT YET surpass them.

[basketballcat]

But as of CURRENTLY, he has NOT YET surpass them.
Current Giannis hasn't surpassed Barkley yet? Giannis is a champ, Barkley isn't. Giannis is a better defender, as evidenced by his DPOY.

[tanibanana]

Current Giannis hasn't surpassed Barkley yet? Giannis is a champ, Barkley isn't. Giannis is a better defender, as evidenced by his DPOY.

Barkley has ELEVEN All-NBA against Giannis has FIVE.
And ELEVEN All-Star against FIVE All-Star.
That is like 22-10. Let that sink in.
Not taking anything away from Giannis.
But Championship is a team accomplishment, a bit circumstantial.
Had Harden & Kyrie been healthy, he would not even reach the East Finals.

Giannis without a doubt will surpass him, WITHOUT a doubt.
But lets wait for that to happen before declaring it.
The thread is about all time ranking.

[basketballcat]

Barkley has ELEVEN All-NBA against Giannis has FIVE.
And ELEVEN All-Star against FIVE All-Star.
That is like 22-10. Let that sink in.
There is a double counting there, as there is typically overlap between all-NBA years and all-star years. So it's still 11-5. However, the argument for Giannis boils down to: how much is a Finals MVP, an MVP, and a DPOY worth in relation to more of the "lesser" accomplishments?


But Championship is a team accomplishment, a bit circumstantial.
Had Harden & Kyrie been healthy, he would not even reach the East Finals.

Giannis is not just a champion, he is a Finals MVP. It is arguably the peak of the basketball world. And that is what Giannis has accomplished. Granted, it's easily a weak ring. Barkley would have won one if he did not play in the Jordan era. So, in terms of rings, they are arguably equal in terms of individual accomplishment.

MVP and DPOY is where Giannis separates himself.

On MVPs: 2 > 1. That's a significant difference. Barley won one in Jordan's era but Giannis' competition isn't chopped liver either. So those two MVPs are legit. The fact that Giannis won twice as much as Barkley is significant. An MVP is a level of difficulty higher than all-NBA.

Defense is half the game. Giannis reached the pinnacle, Barkley hasn't. Players like Pippen didn't win DPOY. Winning it is an extremely difficult task.

It's like this:
On the list of all time rebounders, who would rank higher: Rodman or Oakley? I reckon most people will say Rodman because he led the league in rebounds for 7 seasons. Oakley actually has more rebounds in total. He was also an elite rebounder, with 6 seasons with an average of over 10 rebounds. He was 2nd place twice and 3rd once. However, reaching the pinnacle (e.g. top rebounder for a season) is special. That's why people put a lot of weight on it, in relation to more of the "lesser" accomplishments. Same principle with MVP & DPOY in relation to All-NBAs and All-Stars.

Giannis at this point has zero case against the other players in terms of the all time rankings. However, compared to Barkley, he does.

[basketballcat]

Barkley has ELEVEN All-NBA against Giannis has FIVE.

To add to my previous post, 19 players have 11 or more All-NBA selections. In comparison, 14 players have 2 or move MVPs. Already, Giannis is in more rarefied company. As for defense, it's a lopsided victory for Giannis. Barkley has not made a single All-defensive selection, while Giannis made 4 in addition to a DPOY.

[DMAVS41]

You think Dirk is a shooter like Curry? Lillard? Young? What were the things you disagree with? Its a fact. Jason Terry's shooting with Giannis? Fact.
My bad, I should have said "all the way?"

No. I pointed out a factoid. Terry shot his 2nd best year from 3point land ever with Giannis after you implied that Dirk stretched the floor for Terry unlike Giannis did for Middleton. Terry was a more consistent shooter in the finals than Dirk was. Middleton hasn't proved consistency just yet.

Maybe you can explain to me how a wall which requires three people dedicated to stopping Giannis doesn't get a shooter more open than a double team. Remind you that Giannis is a superior passer than Dirk too.

We seen Dirk get sizzling hot over his 20 year career. In his best series I think Giannis offense was at least equal to that and he was only hot one game and he isn't in his prime yet. And this on offense alone. Dirk has never had the RS he's had. Nor the final's he's had. But there is room for longevity.

1. No, I never said Dirk was Curry as a shooter. You were talking about impact on defenses...and there is a huge difference when a big can do the things Dirk could do.

2. What Terry did as a washed 40 year old means nothing. He had some of the worst offensive years of his career next to Giannis and that means nothing as well.

3. What Dirk does to defenses is more valuable than Giannis so far imo. I think Dirk generates better shots for his teammates given his presence and he's a more reliable shot maker and obviously has a huge edge in ft shooting.

4. I don't think so...I don't think Giannis has played a series as good as Dirk's 06 Spurs series yet. The Finals on paper was on that level, but I can't put it there given the competition. We'll see how he does in the future against what for sure will be better competition.

5. It isn't a knock on Giannis at this point. I fully expect him to challenge a tier of players higher than Dirk. But he isn't passed him yet. You are talking about a player in Dirk that had a better title run than Giannis had given the competition. Made another finals...11 straight seasons of 50 or more wins...unbelievable longevity...etc. At age 26? It is easily Giannis, but if he retired tomorrow he should not be known as better than Dirk...he needs to do it another 5 plus years at a similar level unless he improves and accomplishes a ton more in the next 2 years or something.

[Pointguard]

1. No, I never said Dirk was Curry as a shooter. You were talking about impact on defenses...and there is a huge difference when a big can do the things Dirk could do.
Dirk's impact as a tall slow guard wasn't greater than greater than Curry's. Dirk's strength was as a shooter on offense and his superb middle game. He was not the scorer Curry is.


2. What Terry did as a washed 40 year old means nothing. He had some of the worst offensive years of his career next to Giannis and that means nothing as well.
You prove my point. If he was washed up why was he shooting better with Giannis? He must have been more open right? He had apparently lost his shooting touch with Dirk in his prime. I don't think there is another player whose shooting touch greatly improved at 39 years old. It just doesn't happen. He retires the next year because he lost his touch. Its the only example we have of player who played off of the presence of Dirk and Giannis. Its an overall win for Giannis.


3. What Dirk does to defenses is more valuable than Giannis so far imo. I think Dirk generates better shots for his teammates given his presence and he's a more reliable shot maker and obviously has a huge edge in ft shooting.
But science doesn't agree. TS% FG% EFG% all dismantle your argument. And you love TS%. When three guys, go aftter Giannis that's four guys to two advantage for the other players with a much better passer with the ball.

What good is shooting if the opposition outscores you all the time.?.?.? : It only means he's more reliable to get outscored in the end.

[snipes12]

3 mvp and 3 fmvp will secure his spot as the goat pf
Duncan is a center

Jabbar
Giannis
James
Jordan
Johnson

[SaintzFury13]

3 mvp and 3 fmvp will secure his spot as the goat pf
Duncan is a center

Jabbar
Giannis
James
Jordan
Johnson

I don't even think he needs to go that far tbh. One or two more rings will be more than sufficient to earn him the right to be called the greatest PF of all time.

[rmt]

I don't even think he needs to go that far tbh. One or two more rings will be more than sufficient to earn him the right to be called the greatest PF of all time.

I wondered when someone would say this. So if Bucks wins next year, he's the greatest PF of all time? Laughable.


Current Giannis hasn't surpassed Barkley yet? Giannis is a champ, Barkley isn't. Giannis is a better defender, as evidenced by his DPOY.

Winning DPOY is not necessarily indication of better defender. Rudy Gobert is a 3x DPOY. Duncan and KG both NEVER won a DPOY.

Some are so whatever just happened - and forget 19 year careers - Malone is the 2nd ALL-TIME scorer in the NBA - averaging over 20 for 17 straight years in a much lower scoring point era.
And after 5 such years, you want to hail Giannis over him, much less over Duncan? smh

[HoopsNY]

Malone's percentages on those turnaround jumpers wasn't great. His percentages outside of 3 feet tell the story. Those are exactly the shots that teams discourage today, just like the long 2s. Teams don't post up a lot because of analytics. His 40% shooting from 3-16 feet isn't going to impress the stats guys.

What are you relying on for this information? We don't have analytics pre-1997. But take a look at Malone's numbers using 1997 and 1998 alone, where he won 1 MVP (undeservedly) and was 2nd the very next season, in the playoffs:

Playoffs 10-16 ft

1997: 28%
1998: 39%

Playoffs 16-29 ft

1997: 49%
1998: 46%

Approximately 30% of his attempts came from 16-29 ft where he shot nearly 48%. You keep talking about his shooting, yet conveniently ignore it from all distances, all while leaving out the fact that we don't even have numbers pre-1997.


Giannis plays with the same rules as the rest of the league. There is only one guy who can score inside with the volume and efficiency of Giannis and that is Zion, another physical freak. Giannis isn't flopping to get to the line. He isn't pump faking guys into the air then jumping into them to get to the line. Plenty of other guys are doing exactly that.

That's not my original point, though. I agree with everything you said, it just disregards the fact that guys like Malone faced a much more heavy interior presence with a different level of physicality, but still maintained a high statistical output.


Magic could have gotten called for carrying a lot but he wasn't. Get over it.

So now Magic carries to the level of Giannis? You don't honestly believe that, do you?


People talk about how easy it is in this era while completely ignoring that there is more talent in the league now than there was 20-30 years ago. It isn't close either.

I don't think you get it. You can compare "talent" all you like. The fact remains is that superstars like Malone transcended that talent playing in 3 decades. What did having Dirk, KG, Duncan, Webber, Wallace, Kemp, McDyess, Camby, Barkley, etc mean for a guy like Malone in 1999 and 2000? All-NBA 1st Team/2nd Team selections, AS appearance, one MVP, one top 4 MVP voting, etc?

Malone was 36 years old at that point. What does a prime/peak Malone do? This doesn't mean that Giannis would be ineffective in the 2000s, 90s, or 80s, but the numbers are inflated. Giannis would have to rely on a post up game, crowded paints with more likelihood of receiving hard fouls, and see a much slower pace.

The 2000 Bucks, for example, were 2nd in ORTG, but averaged just 101 PPG. Compare that to the 2021 Bucks that averaged 120 PPG. You don't think playing in that era would slow Giannis' down, resulting in fewer PPG, for instance? And wouldn't the opposite happen with Malone, though not necessarily to a much greater degree?

Was talent at the 4 and 5 then "greater", "equal" or "less than" today? And what does it mean when a guy can score 28-30 PPG in the slowest era vs a guy who does the same in the fastest paced era seen in nearly 3 decades? How do we adjust for that?

Or are all other factors equal?

[tontoz]

Given that Malone's TS at 36 in the regular season was virtually identical to his TS 10 years prior i see no reason to believe his midrange shooting was significantly better back then. You don't get bonus points from shooting from farther away unless you shoot behind the 3 pt line so Malone's 48% from 16-3pt line isn't any more beneficial than Giannis' shooting from 3-16 feet.

Almost a 3rd of Giannis' shots this postseason came from 3-16 feet and he shot 48%. Those are the shots he is shooting on post ups when he can't get all the way to the rim. The narrative that Giannis can't shoot/can't post up no longer applies.


Acting like the refs are giving Giannis a pass for carrying but are calling it for everyone else is nonsense. I've seen the exact same comments about Magic for years and my reacting has been exactly the same. Nonsense. Haters gonna hate. Crying about preferential treatment from the refs is the fall back for people who can't make a coherent argument.

Longevity does matter so i still rank Malone ahead of Giannis all time. However at age 26 i take Giannis.

While you could argue that the top end interior talent was better back then there is no question that the average talent is better now. It isn't debatable.

A lot of the extra points in the current era are coming from 3s. Teams are focusing on shooting 3s/getting to the rim. The midrange shots are discouraged, especially the ones from 16-3pt line that Malone favored.

[HoopsNY]

Given that Malone's TS at 36 in the regular season was virtually identical to his TS 10 years prior i see no reason to believe his midrange shooting was significantly better back then. You don't get bonus points from shooting from farther away unless you shoot behind the 3 pt line so Malone's 48% from 16-3pt line isn't any more beneficial than Giannis' shooting from 3-16 feet.

So accept Giannis' numbers but not Malone? This is a different level of bias!

Giannis barely shoots from 10-16 and 16-29 ft. You're basically relying on close range shots to prove what exactly? Careerwise in the playoffs, Giannis attempts 9% of shots from 10-16 ft and 5% from 16-29 ft. He attempts just 19% from 3-10.

His FG% from 3-10 career-wise is about the same as Malone's (38% to 39%), and we don't even have data pre-1997.

I'm not sure why you decide to isolate one year and then compare it to ten years prior. I can do the same, but look at a greater amount of data.

Malone's peak/prime began in '88. '88-'96 (data we don't have), has him shooting almost 48%. '97 onward has him just below 45%. TS% for Malone is heavily influenced by FTH%. But ultimately, his FG% before includes years where he shot higher. It's safe to assume that his percentages on the floor increased then as well.



Almost a 3rd of Giannis' shots this postseason came from 3-16 feet and he shot 48%. Those are the shots he is shooting on post ups when he can't get all the way to the rim. The narrative that Giannis can't shoot/can't post up no longer applies.

So isolate one year to prove what exactly? That Giannis is a better mid-range/close range shooter? I'm not sure what the emphasis is here, if any at all.

Let's isolate data then, for the sake of cherry picking:

Giannis 3-10, 10-16, 16-29 (2021 Playoffs): 47/49/29
Malone 3-10, 10-16, 16-29 (2000 Playoffs): 54/25/51

Again, no data pre-1997.


Acting like the refs are giving Giannis a pass for carrying but are calling it for everyone else is nonsense. I've seen the exact same comments about Magic for years and my reacting has been exactly the same. Nonsense. Haters gonna hate. Crying about preferential treatment from the refs is the fall back for people who can't make a coherent argument.

You misunderstand or are forgetting my original premise. Giannis lacks skills. If Giannis can't barrel his way to the basket, then he doesn't have much to rely on. Other players in the league don't have to rely on that. They're skillful enough to be able to adjust because they possess great moves and shooting ability to be able circumvent that problem.

If refs were to call offensive fouls or if defensive players were allowed to hard foul (or even touch fouls a lot of the time), they would adjust because they have the skills to be able to adjust. Giannis doesn't.


Longevity does matter so i still rank Malone ahead of Giannis all time. However at age 26 i take Giannis.

Recency bias.


While you could argue that the top end interior talent was better back then there is no question that the average talent is better now. It isn't debatable.

We're discussing 4s and 5s, where the majority of the action happens for guys like Giannis (the interior). It absolutely matters and "average talent" is irrelevant.

[tontoz]

When did i not accept Malone's numbers? I reject the notion that his midrange shooting was so much better in his prime because there is no evidence of it in his TS.

It is people in this thread who continued to say Giannis can't shoot while completely ignoring what he just did in the playoffs. That is why i brought up the numbers in the first place.

Defense is a team endeavor so the average talent absolutely does matter. There are more guys now who can block shots compared to the 90s and Malone struggled to finish at the rim because of his lack of length/hops.

Giannis has the length/athleticism to finish in any era, and is a better ball handler than Malone. Saying he just barrels his way to the basket is nonsense. If he actually did that he would get called for charges all the time. What actually happens is that when a guy tries to draw a charge Giannis spins around him for a layup, assuming there isn't a defender there when he spins. Giannis has the ball handling ability/agility to get all the way to the rim when the defense is waiting for him. His ability to change direction and finish over/around the defense is elite.

The only things he lacks are a jumper with range and foul shooting. And his foul shooting for his career is 71.7% in the regular season. He seems to have a mental issue these last couple of years that he needs to work through.

You are focusing too much on the Hakeem/Drob/Shaq elite talent while ignoring the average 4/5s throughout the league. The average 4/5 are better now, as are the backups. The elite bigs back then would be elite now but the average/backup bigs back then would struggle to get on the court now.

Strangely enough you are ignoring a big point in favor of Malone. While this is speculation it is reasonable to assume, given his ability to make long 2s, that he might have been able to shoot 3s at a reasonable rate in today's era.

[HoopsNY]

When did i not accept Malone's numbers? I reject the notion that his midrange shooting was so much better in his prime because there is no evidence of it in his TS.

You're isolating one year and going back ten. Why is '97-'04 relevant (Malone ages 33-40), but not '88-'96 (ages 24-32), a span of 8 years which were all of his prime/peak years as opposed to the latter stages of his career that contained maybe 3-4 of them? Those years saw him shoot higher in the playoffs.

You're rejecting it, but you seem like an old head. I'm sure you saw him play throughout the 90s and maybe even the 80s. You can't possibly tell me that Malone wasn't a much better shooter.


It is people in this thread who continued to say Giannis can't shoot while completely ignoring what he just did in the playoffs. That is why i brought up the numbers in the first place.

It's a fair point, but you're neglecting or ignoring the counterarguments (pace, defensive schemes, quality of 4s/5s, interior defenses, Giannis' lack of skills/reliance on barreling). It's as if none of these arguments hold any weight whatsoever in your eyes, like, at all. The numbers just magically jump purely off of "talent" and "skill."


Giannis has the length/athleticism to finish in any era, and is a better ball handler than Malone. Saying he just barrels his way to the basket is nonsense. If he actually did that he would get called for charges all the time. What actually happens is that when a guy tries to draw a charge Giannis spins around him for a layup, assuming there isn't a defender there when he spins. Giannis has the ball handling ability/agility to get all the way to the rim when the defense is waiting for him. His ability to change direction and finish over/around the defense is elite.

He does do that. Defenders can't simply step in front of him or put a hand on him at will without getting called for a foul. I'm not saying this happens all of the time, but it's significantly more apparent than with other elite stars. Obviously defenders will have to play more aggressively and use their bodies to counter him because of his size and athleticism. That's precisely the point. It's all intuitive.

If Giannis can use his size, strength, and athleticism, why can't defenders?


You are focusing too much on the Hakeem/Drob/Shaq elite talent while ignoring the average 4/5s throughout the league. The average 4/5 are better now, as are the backups. The elite bigs back then would be elite now but the average/backup bigs back then would struggle to get on the court now.

Like who? Hakeem/D-Rob/Shaq are just some names, I also mentioned guys like McDyess, Webber, KG, Duncan, Dirk, Wallace....or how about Ewing, Mutombo, Zo, Oakley, Camby, Barkley, Kemp, Coleman, Walker, Cummings, Rodman, Laimbeer, Willis, Smits, Green, Grant, Nance, McHale, Parish, M. Malone, etc etc etc....

How many players at the 4 and 5 do you need spanning 3 decades to validate Malone's ability, competition, and overall talent pool that he faced?


Strangely enough you are ignoring a big point in favor of Malone. While this is speculation it is reasonable to assume, given his ability to make long 2s, that he might have been able to shoot 3s at a reasonable rate in today's era.

That is true, but it is interesting that you mention it. But the opposite also holds true. If Milwaukee is scoring 120 PPG in the reg. season, and a quarter of it is Giannis, then what happens to Giannis' output when teams are putting up 100 PPG (peak Milwaukee 2000s), and low 80s in the postseason like we saw during Malone's time?

Is he still dropping 32 PPG on 60%? Does he still put up 27-28 PPG on 55% in the regular season? Just going off of a slower pace alone tells you that his output decreases. And that isn't even factoring in defenses, rule changes, etc.

[tpols]

He does do that. Defenders can't simply step in front of him or put a hand on him at will without getting called for a foul. I'm not saying this happens all of the time,


It does happen all the time. Its the entire crux of his offensive game... Shot more FTs than everybody on the suns combined in game 6. And which is also why he looks like a role player in international play where zone is prevalent and soft WWE calls aren't.

[tontoz]

The problem with your list is that you are pulling from 30 years lol. None of those guys were considered average players at the time. Try putting up 40 names from 1 year.

You are seeing what you want to see with Giannis. He doesn't pump fake and jump into guys like Trae Young. He isnt getting a guys on his back and stopping like CP3. He isn't doing KD's swim move. He isn't flopping to draw the whistle. He is taking it to the rim to score. If someone gets in the way he can go around them or shoot over them routinely. He has the size to take contact and finish. He has the agility to get around defenders.

Hand checking rules apply to everyone, not just the people who are guarding Giannis. If an offensive player is facing you then you can't put a hand on them. That is league wide.

He doesn't have an elite pg setting him up for easy layups, dunks. I remember Malone. His one on one moves off the dribble just weren't very good. Changing direction to get around defenders wasn't his thing and he didn't have the length to shoot over people. So often he would drive and throw up some off balance mess trying to bait the refs. A lot of his easy looks came from the all time assists leader.



If the current Bucks team played back then they wouldn't be taking 37 3s per game. Those shots would be at least cut in half, and a lot of those shots would go to Giannis.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk's impact as a tall slow guard wasn't greater than greater than Curry's. Dirk's strength was as a shooter on offense and his superb middle game. He was not the scorer Curry is.

You prove my point. If he was washed up why was he shooting better with Giannis? He must have been more open right? He had apparently lost his shooting touch with Dirk in his prime. I don't think there is another player whose shooting touch greatly improved at 39 years old. It just doesn't happen. He retires the next year because he lost his touch. Its the only example we have of player who played off of the presence of Dirk and Giannis. Its an overall win for Giannis.

But science doesn't agree. TS% FG% EFG% all dismantle your argument. And you love TS%. When three guys, go aftter Giannis that's four guys to two advantage for the other players with a much better passer with the ball.

What good is shooting if the opposition outscores you all the time.?.?.? : It only means he's more reliable to get outscored in the end.

1. Dirk wasn't a guard, not sure what the hell you are talking about. Curry vs Dirk is an interesting argument. I'd probably lean towards Curry, but it is close for me.

2. No, nothing he did matters...he was washed and not playing enough or at a high enough level.

3. Science? You can look at efficiency and shooting percentages from all over the court. I'm not talking about dunks, I'm talking about shooting. I'll need to see Giannis, again...he has better offensive help than Dirk did after Nash left broadly speaking...lead some elite offenses more often to put him in that class.

[HoopsNY]

The problem with your list is that you are pulling from 30 years lol. None of those guys were considered average players at the time. Try putting up 40 names from 1 year.

You're misinterpreting my statement. I'm merely showing how an array of players who were cross-generational shows that Malone was no stranger to talent across all eras.

If the elite players weren't preventing his ability to produce, then average players wouldn't, either. And it's not relevant for me to put up 40 players from one year, since no era has 40 players at one position that are elite.

But I shared with you elite PFs and Cs from '99-'00 alone, when Malone was 36, and that wasn't good enough apparently, because somehow, 'average' players are more impactful (defensively) against his offensive ability?


You are seeing what you want to see with Giannis. He doesn't pump fake and jump into guys like Trae Young. He isnt getting a guys on his back and stopping like CP3. He isn't doing KD's swim move. He isn't flopping to draw the whistle. He is taking it to the rim to score. If someone gets in the way he can go around them or shoot over them routinely. He has the size to take contact and finish. He has the agility to get around defenders.

I'm not comparing Giannis to CP3 and Trae Young, though. If I wanted to pick at fundamental flaws in Young or CP3's game in order to compare them to other all-time great PGs, then maybe I would discuss that.

What you're not understanding is that I agree that he has that size and athleticism, which he is allowed to use for offensive purposes. The opposite is not true. Defensive players are not allowed to use size, speed, strength, and aggressive play to counter Giannis' allowance.

Do you agree with that much? If not, then we will have to disagree because we're seeing two different games, apparently.


Hand checking rules apply to everyone, not just the people who are guarding Giannis. If an offensive player is facing you then you can't put a hand on them. That is league wide.

Correct. You haven't understood my point. My point is that some guys need these rules in place in order to be effective on the same level in comparison to if the rules weren't in place.

If Kevin McHale has to deal with an abundance of fouls, flagrants, and aggressive play, he can adjust with an array of low post moves and still be effective. If players knew they could play aggressively against Giannis, Giannis would be forced to adjust. The question then comes in, does he have the skills necessary to make such adjustments? Intuition tells me no. This doesn't mean his output falls through the roof, but I do think his numbers drop somewhat.


He doesn't have an elite pg setting him up for easy layups, dunks. I remember Malone. His one on one moves off the dribble just weren't very good. Changing direction to get around defenders wasn't his thing and he didn't have the length to shoot over people. So often he would drive and throw up some off balance mess trying to bait the refs. A lot of his easy looks came from the all time assists leader.

Malone played without Stockton in 1998 for 18 games. He put up 25/11/4/1/1 on 52% during that time. In 1990, he played 4 games without Stockton and put up 26/9/4/2/1 on 53%.

Small sample size but it appears that the supposed reliance on Stockton's feeds is a bit overrated. Malone is putting up elite scoring numbers on great efficiency with or without Stockton.

[HoopsNY]

If the current Bucks team played back then they wouldn't be taking 37 3s per game. Those shots would be at least cut in half, and a lot of those shots would go to Giannis.

I don't believe so. The Bucks averaged nearly 92 FGA this year. Compare that to 2000 (Malone was 36) when the Jazz averaged 77 FGA. You're not adjusting for pace properly. The assumption is that he still maintains the same amount of points just because of a lack of threes is somewhat fair, but it doesn't account for the overall pace of play being much slower.

[tontoz]

The rules favor the offense for ALL PLAYERS. This isn't something unique to Giannis. And Giannis also uses that size and athleticism on defense, as seen in this postseason run. A perfect example was the play when he cut off Booker on the pick and roll then recovered to block Aytons dunk attempt on the alley oop. How many players in history could make that play? Not Malone that's for sure.

You guys act like Giannis is getting some type of favoritism. That is just wrong.

LOL at Giannis not being able to adjust. He has far more moves that Malone taking it to the basket, not the mention better length and athleticism. The last two postseasons teams had success building a wall of 3 players to stop him from driving from the 3 pt line to the basket. He showed this postseason that he can adjust, playing more off the ball and scoring effectively from 3-16 feet when he couldn't get all the way to the basket. You are saying he cant adjust even though he just showed that he could.

[bizil]

Sure. But Giannis is better.

At this point, I'm fine with those who say that. BECAUSE Giannis forces his will scoring the rock more than KG did. For me, that's the MAIN DIFFERENCE between the two. BUT before Giannis proved he could win a ring and not be a liability on the line, I wasn't so willing to say Giannis was better than KG. KG was EVERY BIT the defender, rebounder, and passer. PLUS a much better outside shooter and FT shooter. With that said, the tiebreaker could likely be a Westbrook type motor all over the court AND looking to be a more dominant scorer. But in terms of OVERALL SKILL, KG is superior. Before Giannis broke though, MANY felt like he was supersized version of Westbrook. A generational talent, freak athlete, BUT hard to win a chip with. He proved those people wrong and NUFF RESPECT to the Greek Freak!!