Best player in the league or Ring/FMVP?

[StrongLurk]

Which one is more representative of improving an "individual" players all time ranking?

IMO, being the best player in the league is more relevant to a players all time ranking than winning a ring/FMVP.

For instance, Giannis just got his ring/FMVP off a legendary finals series...but he was actually outplayed by KD in the Bucks/Nets series.

KD: 35/11/5/2/1 on 59.4 TS%
Giannis: 32/13/4/0/1 on 59.2 TS%

Wouldn't this year be more beneficial to KD's all time ranking? Why are basketball all time rankings being reduced to hardware?

I think Michael Jordan and Lebron are the best examples since they had PLENTY of years where they were the clear-cut best player in the league but didn't win a title/FMVP.

I'm not trying to diminish Giannis, I am a big fan. But you can definitely make the case that KD was the best player in the playoffs and Kawhi was right there at number two before got injured.

[tontoz]

.
IMO, being the best player in the league is more relevant to a players all time ranking than winning a ring/FMVP.

I agree with this in theory. In practice the MVP goes to a guy who isn't close to being the best player but has a good story.

I really don't think Russ nor Rose were close to the best player in the league when they won MVP.

[HunterSThompson]

being the best player is completely subjective

some people used to think tmac was the best player in the league. that thought faded cause he never won an mvp/fmvp or ring

you solidify your position as leagues best player by attaining accolades


giannis was looked at as an overrated 1 trick pony before dominating the nba finals. now he just vaulted every power forward in history other than duncan to some posters on here

awards definitely help guys more than some random persons opinion. if you go your entire career with never accomplishing anything then maybe you never were the best and you just put up BS stats like westbrick

[Bronbron23]

Which one is more representative of improving an "individual" players all time ranking?

IMO, being the best player in the league is more relevant to a players all time ranking than winning a ring/FMVP.

For instance, Giannis just got his ring/FMVP off a legendary finals series...but he was actually outplayed by KD in the Bucks/Nets series.

KD: 35/11/5/2/1 on 59.4 TS%
Giannis: 32/13/4/0/1 on 59.2 TS%

Wouldn't this year be more beneficial to KD's all time ranking? Why are basketball all time rankings being reduced to hardware?

I think Michael Jordan and Lebron are the best examples since they had PLENTY of years where they were the clear-cut best player in the league but didn't win a title/FMVP.

I'm not trying to diminish Giannis, I am a big fan. But you can definitely make the case that KD was the best player in the playoffs and Kawhi was right there at number two before got injured.

But kd didn't out play him. For one your using averages in a 7 game series which can be misleading. One guy can have 1 game of 240 and 0 for the other 6 games and still average 35 pts a game and another guy can have 7 games of 25 each and only average 25 but clearly the 2nd player out played the 1st in the series. It's not that drastic in this series but there was one game where kd had alot and greek barely had any. Every other game was very close and if you actually go game by game greek was as good or better especially on the offensive end.

That brings me to my other point which is defense which is half the battle. Greek is clearly a much better defender than kd who actually isn't terrible. So even if we go by the series averages you gave greek was still better. Surely you agree that 2 more reb and 2 more assists assists plus dpoy first team type defense is worth more than 3 points:confusedshrug:

[tontoz]

I would disagree that defense is half the battle. I think good offense beats good defense. I would say it is more like 60/40 in favor of offense.

Having said that Giannis has a huge impact on D and on the boards. He is the perfect defensive big for today's game. He can protect the rim and defend guards on switches.

[Bronbron23]

I would disagree that defense is half the battle. I think good offense beats good defense. I would say it is more like 60/40 in favor of offense.

Having said that Giannis has a huge impact on D and on the boards. He is the perfect defensive big for today's game. He can protect the rim and defend guards on switches.

Fair enough but even if it's 60/40 or 70/30 more rebounds and assists along with better defense imo is much more valuable than 3 more points.

[tontoz]

Fair enough but even if it's 60/40 or 70/30 more rebounds and assists along with better defense imo is much more valuable than 3 more points.

Yeah Giannis can impact the game in many different ways. KD relies a lot on his jumper. If that is off his effectiveness drops hard.

Giannis doesn't rely on a jumper which allows him to be more consistent night after night.

[Bronbron23]

Yeah Giannis can impact the game in many different ways. KD relies a lot on his jumper. If that is off his effectiveness drops hard.

Giannis doesn't rely on a jumper which allows him to be more consistent night after night.

Yeah it's a hard comparison. Kd is clearly the more skilled scorer. It's kind of like comparing kd to young shaq. KD's game is way prettier and more impressive but greek and shaq are physically dominant. The shit ain't pretty but it's effective. I usually like players who are higher skilled personally but it's hard to deny greeks impact.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Because Durant has never been the best player in the league, never led the playoffs in a single advanced stat and has 1 finals win to show for without warriors.

Pretty much a 6"10 skinny shit version of Adrian Dantley

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd have no problem with someone choosing Giannis as the BITW, but the facts are if Durant's toe was behind the line this would've been how Giannis' season ended

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/6/2/6/9/5/16269525882060942.gif?1626952599

And not a single person on the forum would consider him BITW right now :lol Not a single one. He'd have the same playoff choking reputation that he did before these playoffs started. Which is why I personally don't base it solely off of FMVP, titles are way too circumstantial, and if we're being honest if these playoffs weren't so ravaged by injury there's very little chance, if any, the Bucks would be champs right now. I don't asterisk titles, but this years was truly one of the flukiest, if not the flukiest title that I've ever seen.

[tontoz]

You can say stuff like that every year. The what iffs don't matter.

What if Kawhi's shot against the sixers in game 7 bounces out instead of in in 2019? Changes everything. Giannis then faces the 76ers instead of Kawhi's Raps. They probably beat the sixers and walk over the hobbled warriors.

Doesn't matter.

The Suns had the 2nd best record in the league, only one game out of first, in the tougher conference. They were the favorites over the bucks and the bucks beat them primarily because Giannis went off

[StrongLurk]

I'd have no problem with someone choosing Giannis as the BITW, but the facts are if Durant's toe was behind the line this would've been how Giannis' season ended

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/6/2/6/9/5/16269525882060942.gif?1626952599

And not a single person on the forum would consider him BITW right now :lol Not a single one. He'd have the same playoff choking reputation that he did before these playoffs started. Which is why I personally don't base it solely off of FMVP, titles are way too circumstantial, and if we're being honest if these playoffs weren't so ravaged by injury there's very little chance, if any, the Bucks would be champs right now. I don't asterisk titles, but this years was truly one of the flukiest, if not the flukiest title that I've ever seen.

Exactly, it's shocking the amount of hype Giannis is getting all of a sudden...like I totally understand he had a legendary finals series, but there were A LOT of lucky breaks that the Suns/Bucks got...like more than I can ever remember for two teams who made the finals. Giannis was never considered the best player in the league this year just like Kawhi wasn't in 2019...but everyone is super blinded by the winning bias.

I really want to see Bucks/Nets again next year with the Nets fully healthy. The Bucks will actually be better next year than this year since they won a chip.

[tontoz]

Exactly, it's shocking the amount of hype Giannis is getting all of a sudden...like I totally understand he had a legendary finals series, but there were A LOT of lucky breaks that the Suns/Bucks got...like more than I can ever remember for two teams who made the finals. Giannis was never considered the best player in the league this year just like Kawhi wasn't in 2019...but everyone is super blinded by the winning bias.

I really want to see Bucks/Nets again next year with the Nets fully healthy. The Bucks will actually be better next year than this year since they won a chip.

The fully healthy Nets thing is funny. When were they fully healthy all year?

KD missed previous two seasons, Kyrie has been an injury prone flake his whole career, and Harden came to camp fat and out of shape. Of course they weren't healthy in the playoffs.

Giannis won 2 MVPs already prior to this season. The Bucks have the best record in the league over the last 3 years by a wide margin. A big part of their postseason problems was just coaching. Having Giannis trying to bull his way from the 3 pt line to the rim over and over and over isnt an effective game plan in a playoff series.

Lets not forget that playing last years finalist, the team that eliminated them last year, in the first round isn't exactly lucky.

[Bronbron23]

The fully healthy Nets thing is funny. When were they fully healthy all year?

KD missed previous two seasons, Kyrie has been an injury prone flake his whole career, and Harden came to camp fat and out of shape. Of course they weren't healthy in the playoffs.

Giannis won 2 MVPs already prior to this season. The Bucks have the best record in the league over the last 3 years by a wide margin. A big part of their postseason problems was just coaching. Having Giannis trying to bull his way from the 3 pt line to the rim over and over and over isnt an effective game plan in a playoff series.

Lets not forget that playing last years finalist, the team that eliminated them last year, in the first round isn't exactly lucky.

Pretty much this. This bucks were lucky b.s is dumb. There's lucky breaks in almost every championship. Last year lakers with bam going out, 2019 raptors with warriors with klay and kd going out. 2018 warriors with cp3 going out in wcf. 2016 cavs with steph being hurt and dray getting suspended. 2015 warriors with kyrie and love being hurt. That's 6 ot the last 7 chips impacts by major injuries.

And idiots saying if nets were healthy. When were they ever healthy? I was calling for nets to lose from jump for 2 reasons. They can't defend and they can't stay healthy. These are 2 huge factors in winning chips. You'd have to be an idiot to bet on nets to win it all knowing this. I don't expect anything to change next season either. The chances of the nets being healthy or having a mentally normal kyrie is slim. Same goes for clippers with kawhi who was already always hurt and who's now coming off an acl injury and surgery. Same goes with lakers with davis who's always hurt and bron is in decline and can't carry teams anymore.

The old gaurds time is up. The next decade is gonna belong to younger players like greek, luks and maybe tatum.

[K Xerxes]

I'd have no problem with someone choosing Giannis as the BITW, but the facts are if Durant's toe was behind the line this would've been how Giannis' season ended

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/6/2/6/9/5/16269525882060942.gif?1626952599

And not a single person on the forum would consider him BITW right now :lol Not a single one. He'd have the same playoff choking reputation that he did before these playoffs started. Which is why I personally don't base it solely off of FMVP, titles are way too circumstantial, and if we're being honest if these playoffs weren't so ravaged by injury there's very little chance, if any, the Bucks would be champs right now. I don't asterisk titles, but this years was truly one of the flukiest, if not the flukiest title that I've ever seen.

You shouldn't base your opinion of him solely off the FMVP. Instead you should consider that he had some of the most dominant performances of all time on the biggest stage. That is impressive.

With regards to Durant's toe, this is really a non-issue. It's another what if in a long list of possible what ifs in NBA history. I don't need to speak to a LeBron fan about 'what ifs' when we talk about if Ray Allen's shot was off a few inches. Would we be talking about a great game 7 performance, or his turnovers down the stretch etc.

I don't consider him BITW after Durant's performance, but after what happened, he is certainly in the conversation and has a deserving case.

[Stephonit]

One can argue over if a player is the best player in the league. A ring speaks for itself.

[Jasper]

I remember Iggy winning FMVP as well as a chip.
How bout Wes Unseld.

I actually believe over a 85 game season a MVP award is higher ranking.
If Steve Nash , Kidd , Barkley were on a hair better teams they would be wearing a ring..

Chips are very hard to come by , but a single player can kick ass all season and show his cred.

[ArbitraryWater]

2 different things, need to be looked at seperately.

Giannis did more for his all time rank this year than KD did, even if he was a worse player to some.

[ArbitraryWater]

I'd have no problem with someone choosing Giannis as the BITW, but the facts are if Durant's toe was behind the line this would've been how Giannis' season ended

http://freegifmaker.me/img/res/1/6/2/6/9/5/16269525882060942.gif?1626952599

And not a single person on the forum would consider him BITW right now :lol Not a single one. He'd have the same playoff choking reputation that he did before these playoffs started. Which is why I personally don't base it solely off of FMVP, titles are way too circumstantial, and if we're being honest if these playoffs weren't so ravaged by injury there's very little chance, if any, the Bucks would be champs right now. I don't asterisk titles, but this years was truly one of the flukiest, if not the flukiest title that I've ever seen.

why do you repeat this so much

i dont consider it fluky to dodge on a team of durant/harden/irving. they beat the heat, hawks who earned their ecf fair and square, and #2 suns.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Depends entirely on how they perform.

Things to look for are their skills, portability and production. Portability and production are good ones.

Often times we as fans conflate 'big and better numbers' with being the BEST. Players can average a massive statline and set all kinds of individual records, but if his team is underachieving? How much impact did he really have? There's dudes on bunk teams putting up monster numbers, and we call them the best. But are they REALLY better than the guy sacrificing numbers on a well rounded club? Those teams still allow him to shine and all, but on that team, dropping big stats isn't exactly needed.

Isiah Thomas won the title and MVP in 1990. I wouldn't take him over Jordan though. The greatest scorer who was more athletic, skilled and better defensively. Who's INSANE numbers were entirely needed on a pretty good, but not great Bulls team. They also managed to make the ECF, and took Detroit to 7 games.

It gets harder when you start comparing guys like 2009 and 2010 Kobe to Lebron/Wade. Was Kobe better those years because he won titles and FMVPs? Some think Bron was the best all around. But others feel different. That was and still is brought up often here. Not going to explain why both sides have a good argument.

All that for just making the 'better' argument.

Resumes though? They're dependent on the timeline. If a player in that moment needed a title or FMVP to 'fulfill their legacy' then THAT was more important. Again, it really just depends on where the player is, and what is 'needed' for that time period.

In the OP's example, all KD really did was make a best in the world argument. With a gimp Harden and no Kyrie, Durant also got a little more respect back. Does that move him up the all-time ladder? Maybe. But compared to Giannis, absolutely not. This was Giannis' first ring, FMVP and he won with a NON super team. He gets all the respect KD got and more. The hardware and individual accolades. The numbers and impact. So overall Giannis' year was most definitely greater, and probably better.

Basketball is an easy sport to pickup on. But when you start the 'whose greater than who' talk, it gets nuanced. And...pretty subjective.

[basketballcat]

It should be playoffs MVP, not Finals MVP, to avoid situations like this.

[j3lademaster]

This is like asking what’s more important: actually learning something in college or the degree. Sure they’re both important, but if you had to pick one in the real world the degree wins every time.

[basketballcat]

This is like asking what’s more important: actually learning something in college or the degree. Sure they’re both important, but if you had to pick one in the real world the degree wins every time.

In other words, 20 years from now, most people will just recall/know that Giannis won the Finals MVP. Only a few would recall/know that KD outplayed him in the series prior.

[StrongLurk]

But kd didn't out play him. For one your using averages in a 7 game series which can be misleading. One guy can have 1 game of 240 and 0 for the other 6 games and still average 35 pts a game and another guy can have 7 games of 25 each and only average 25 but clearly the 2nd player out played the 1st in the series. It's not that drastic in this series but there was one game where kd had alot and greek barely had any. Every other game was very close and if you actually go game by game greek was as good or better especially on the offensive end.

That brings me to my other point which is defense which is half the battle. Greek is clearly a much better defender than kd who actually isn't terrible. So even if we go by the series averages you gave greek was still better. Surely you agree that 2 more reb and 2 more assists assists plus dpoy first team type defense is worth more than 3 points:confusedshrug:

Giannis literally called KD the best player in the league :roll:

[Bronbron23]

Giannis literally called KD the best player in the league :roll:

Greek is very respectful of his older peers. He said this about bron too. I remember mj saying the same thing about magic and bird being better but i doubt he actually thought that at the time. Maybe greek believes it or maybe he's paying homage. Either way kd has no argument over greek anymore as far as who's better right now.

[plowking]

Giannis along with Kawhi have been the two best players in the league the last 2 or 3 years.

KD didn't really outplay Giannis especially when you consider the defensive load Giannis carries. Their offensive stats are essentially identical.

[97 bulls]

These are some of the most basketball scholarly comments I've read in this forum. Great responses by all.

I think its subjective. What's important to player A may not be what's important to player B. Then there's a players role on their team. And how are we quantifying best player? One on one? Best team player? I wouldn't be surprised if Kyle Kuzma beat Lebron James in a game of 1 on 1 4 out of 10 tines.

That's why I've always maintained in all my debates that its about impact and wins. There's a lot of players that could put up gaudy stats if that was their focus.

[basketballcat]

But kd didn't out play him.
Let's look at that series in more detail.

Gamescore: KD (26.0) vs Giannis (21.9)
second best gamescore, for players who played all 7 games: Nets Griffin (11.1) vs Bucks Middleton (17.0)

top scorers:
Durant: 3 games, of which 2 was won
Giannis: 2 games, 1 won
Middleton: 2 games, 2 won

Defensive rating: KD (102) vs Giannis (107)
Steals: KD (1.6) vs Giannis (0.1)
Blocks: KD (1.1) vs Giannis (1.0)

So, what have we learned? KD had better series averages with less help. KD led scoring in more games, so your 240-point game 1 counter example is moot. You can argue that Middleton was the difference-maker, gifting the bucks two games. If it was on even teams with KD and Giannis being the leaders, KD would have won easily. In fact, even with Middleton in the series, KD was within a hair of eliminating Giannis on that last shot on 4Q game 7. Even the narrative that Giannis had more defensive impact is questionable, even false.

[j3lademaster]

In other words, 20 years from now, most people will just recall/know that Giannis won the Finals MVP. Only a few would recall/know that KD outplayed him in the series prior.oh 100%. If Durant had his foot behind the line we’d be talking about one of the best playoff performances of all time.doesn’t make that shot any easier, doesn’t make KD’s performance any better or worse in reality. The only things that would have changed was the narrative.

[nayte]

Depends entirely on how they perform.

Things to look for are their skills, portability and production. Portability and production are good ones.

Often times we as fans conflate 'big and better numbers' with being the BEST. Players can average a massive statline and set all kinds of individual records, but if his team is underachieving? How much impact did he really have? There's dudes on bunk teams putting up monster numbers, and we call them the best. But are they REALLY better than the guy sacrificing numbers on a well rounded club? Those teams still allow him to shine and all, but on that team, dropping big stats isn't exactly needed.

Isiah Thomas won the title and MVP in 1990. I wouldn't take him over Jordan though. The greatest scorer who was more athletic, skilled and better defensively. Who's INSANE numbers were entirely needed on a pretty good, but not great Bulls team. They also managed to make the ECF, and took Detroit to 7 games.

It gets harder when you start comparing guys like 2009 and 2010 Kobe to Lebron/Wade. Was Kobe better those years because he won titles and FMVPs? Some think Bron was the best all around. But others feel different. That was and still is brought up often here. Not going to explain why both sides have a good argument.

All that for just making the 'better' argument.

Resumes though? They're dependent on the timeline. If a player in that moment needed a title or FMVP to 'fulfill their legacy' then THAT was more important. Again, it really just depends on where the player is, and what is 'needed' for that time period.

In the OP's example, all KD really did was make a best in the world argument. With a gimp Harden and no Kyrie, Durant also got a little more respect back. Does that move him up the all-time ladder? Maybe. But compared to Giannis, absolutely not. This was Giannis' first ring, FMVP and he won with a NON super team. He gets all the respect KD got and more. The hardware and individual accolades. The numbers and impact. So overall Giannis' year was most definitely greater, and probably better.

Basketball is an easy sport to pickup on. But when you start the 'whose greater than who' talk, it gets nuanced. And...pretty subjective.

I agree with pretty much all of this

[houston]

The fully healthy Nets thing is funny. When were they fully healthy all year?

KD missed previous two seasons, Kyrie has been an injury prone flake his whole career, and Harden came to camp fat and out of shape. Of course they weren't healthy in the playoffs.

Giannis won 2 MVPs already prior to this season. The Bucks have the best record in the league over the last 3 years by a wide margin. A big part of their postseason problems was just coaching. Having Giannis trying to bull his way from the 3 pt line to the rim over and over and over isnt an effective game plan in a playoff series.

Lets not forget that playing last years finalist, the team that eliminated them last year, in the first round isn't exactly lucky.



this true about the Nets.

[Manny98]

Yeah Giannis can impact the game in many different ways. KD relies a lot on his jumper. If that is off his effectiveness drops hard.

Giannis doesn't rely on a jumper which allows him to be more consistent night after night.
Giannis needs shooters to be effective, he's way easier to stop than KD with the right personal

[StrongLurk]

Greek is very respectful of his older peers. He said this about bron too. I remember mj saying the same thing about magic and bird being better but i doubt he actually thought that at the time. Maybe greek believes it or maybe he's paying homage. Either way kd has no argument over greek anymore as far as who's better right now.

No really, Giannis himself seriously thinks KD is the best player in the league. That was not respect, he definitely believes that. KD is the best player in the league and he outplayed Giannis in their series. Don't be blinded by team wins or losses.

[Bronbron23]

No really, Giannis himself seriously thinks KD is the best player in the league. That was not respect, he definitely believes that. KD is the best player in the league and he outplayed Giannis in their series. Don't be blinded by team wins or losses.

It's not just teams wins and loses though that suggest greek was better. It was also the stats and eye test if you value defense as much as I do. Again kd only scored 3 more points a game that series. Greek had 2 more assists and rebounds a game. That along with dpoy level defense is worth alot more than 3 points:confusedshrug:

[baudkarma]

The hardware and awards stay in peoples minds longer than some subjective "Who was the best player that year" sort of judgement. Sure, MVP awards are subjective as well, but they go in the record books. You can argue about who was the best player in the NBA in 2003, but you can't argue about who won MVP and FMVP.

[tontoz]

Giannis needs shooters to be effective, he's way easier to stop than KD with the right personal

FYI the Bucks shot 32% from 3 and made only 11 3s per game in the playoffs.