Brand new top 50 ranking after 2021 Finals results

[Magic Is Magic]

Hello community,

I created an all-time NBA ranking metric algorithm and every year I update the numbers after the playoffs have concluded. The big mover after 2021 is Giannis but his career is still young and he did not jump as many spots as most people think but the good news is he has so many more years to build on his steady foundation. At the end of 2020 Giannis was 38th and now after his impressive 2021 showing he is ranked 31. Like I'm saying his career is still so early he has plenty of time to keep rising. So does Curry, Harden and Durant but for guys like Westbrook his best years are well behind him. I use a 25-point ranking system that takes many things into consideration, things like MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes, Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/48 over .250, BPM over 7.0 (these are all looked at for RS and PO), All star selections, and other categories. After all these data points and calculations here is what the results produced from my "Magic is Magic, Magic Formula"

1 ...LeBron James = 87.76
2 ...Michael Jordan = 85.02
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar = 72.92
4 ...Tim Duncan = 57.79
5 ...Bill Russell = 56.13
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain = 54.99
7 ...Magic Johnson = 48.61
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal = 46.63
9 ...Kobe Bryant = 42.73
10 ...Larry Bird = 39.21
11 ...Hakeem Olajuwon = 35.54
12 ...Kevin Durant = 33.25
13 ...Karl Malone = 32.76
14 ...Jerry West = 32.13
15 ...Dirk Nowitzki = 31.22
16 ...Moses Malone = 28.59
17 ...David Robinson = 28.39
18 ...Oscar Robertson = 28.37
19 ...Chris Paul = 28.18
20 ...George Mikan = 27.85
21 ...Bob Cousy = 27.78
22 ...Kevin Garnett = 27.44
23 ...Julius Erving = 27.40
24 ...Bob Pettit = 26.49
25 ...Kawhi Leonard = 23.91
26 ...James Harden = 23.63
27 ...Charles Barkley = 22.78
28 ...John Havlicek = 22.39
29 ...John Stockton = 21.81
30 ...Stephen Curry = 21.31
31 ...Giannis Antetekuompo = 21.23
32 ...Dwyane Wade = 20.52
33 ...Dolph Schayes = 20.06
34 ...Jason Kidd = 20.04
35 ...Elgin Baylor = 18.81
36 ...Willis Reed = 17.61
37 ...Scottie Pippen = 17.41
38 ...Steve Nash = 17.40
39 ...Russell Westbrook = 16.82
40 ...Elvin Hayes = 14.37
41 ...Rick Barry = 14.02
42 ...Walt Frazier = 13.82
43 ...Anthony Davis = 13.32
44 ...Allen Iverson = 13.11
45 ...George Gervin = 13.05
46 ...Patrick Ewing = 12.50
47 ...Isiah Thomas = 12.00
48 ...Paul Pierce = 10.86
49 ...Bill Walton = 10.78
50 ...Artis Gilmore = 10.50

Giannis' impressive run jumped him up from 38 to 31 where he passed up
Elgin Baylor
Scottie Pippen
Jason Kidd
Willis Reed
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade

His combination of winning DPOY, FMVP, 2 MVPs with a lot of strong seasons has almost leaped him into top 30. I expect him to have a chance at top 10 if he can keep up his impressive play and suppress KD from winning MVP or FMVP he has strong for top 10.

[iamgine]

Wait he only jumped from #38 to #31? So this season he jumped from 17 points to 21 points? Only 4 points jump after the season he had?

So if he has 8 more seasons exactly like this he'd be...8th all time? 9 titles 9 FMVPs and he'd only be 8th all time, might want to rethink this formula.

[Magic Is Magic]

Wait he only jumped from #38 to #31? So this season he jumped from 17 points to 21 points? Only 4 points jump after the season he had?

So if he has 8 more seasons exactly like this he'd be...8th all time? 9 titles 9 FMVPs and he'd only be 8th all time, might want to rethink this formula.

I wouldn't look at the points as much as the rankings because anyone can always make the points look different by adding a multiplier across all points or whatever suits your boat but the actual ranking (38 to 31) is what is most important. Example:

1st is 50
2nd is 40

Or

1st is 5
2nd is 4

If that makes sense. Back to the discussion now please keep in mind that Giannis is only 26 and has one ring. His run was so impressive I am not taking that away from him but the formula seems to be working to me. Again, don't focus so much on the points. There are a lot of other factors to look at and the points number from 2020 to 2021 is not on the same level. Think of inflation and me trying to deflate scores but still keeping the ranking the most valuable end result.

[iamgine]

Doesn't the points determine the ranking? Like, Giannis only jumped from 38 to 31 because his points increased by 4?

[HunterSThompson]

https://i.ibb.co/pnctCWM/Screen-Shot-2021-07-23-at-12-49-50-AM.png

https://media.tenor.com/images/057161e766253130ca174e0b3740c0cd/tenor.gif

















































https://i.ibb.co/6JJYNnM/Screen-Shot-2021-07-23-at-12-49-43-AM.png

https://media1.tenor.com/images/da02765680cc2791733732d533511172/tenor.gif?itemid=13389984

https://i.gifer.com/A5Sb.gif

[nayte]

It seems like all the usual suspects are there so fair enough but can we have a list of all the categories and the weighting you give each one. Cause you say rebounding but not assists or scoring. Seems a bit unfair to the smaller players in the league.

Also not sure bout the top 3 and 5 thing. What if someone is like .1 of an assist benind fifth place they no longer are considered having a good season ?

It values longevity which I have no complaints over but maybe a per year table as well

[HunterSThompson]

It seems like all the usual suspects are there so fair enough but can we have a list of all the categories and the weighting you give each one. Cause you say rebounding but not assists or scoring. Seems a bit unfair to the smaller players in the league.

Also not sure bout the top 3 and 5 thing. What if someone is like .1 of an assist benind fifth place they no longer are considered having a good season ?

i find it odd that scoring titles, finals records and DPOTY awards mean nothing in OP's formula.. wonder why

[nayte]

i find it odd that scoring titles, finals records and DPOTY awards mean nothing in OP's formula.. wonder why

He did say other categories so will wait to see what they are. It seems like he put a bit of effort into it so think it deserves a chance.

[L.Kizzle]

Um ...

19 Chris Paul
25 Kawhi Leonard
26 James Harden
30 Stephen Curry
31 Giannis Antetekoumpou
39 Russell Westbrook
43 Anthony Davis

[HunterSThompson]

Um ...

19 Chris Paul
25 Kawhi Leonard
26 James Harden
30 Stephen Curry
31 Giannis Antetekoumpou
39 Russell Westbrook
43 Anthony Davis

yeah and kobes 9th. wtf. i thought he was 12be

[And1AllDay]

Um ...

19 Chris Paul
25 Kawhi Leonard
26 James Harden
30 Stephen Curry
31 Giannis Antetekoumpou
39 Russell Westbrook
43 Anthony Davis

i agree cp is high but his advanced stats are top 5 so thats prob why

curry and giannis seem fair no?

russell and ad seem fair. this is for career so im guessing ad will pass russ soon

[Axe]

Even john stockton is ahead of stephen curry in this list lmao

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Wait he only jumped from #38 to #31? So this season he jumped from 17 points to 21 points? Only 4 points jump after the season he had?

So if he has 8 more seasons exactly like this he'd be...8th all time? 9 titles 9 FMVPs and he'd only be 8th all time, might want to rethink this formula.

I'm sure his "formula" gives the same weight to all nba 3rd team as winning a title. Any "formula" that has Lebron in the top 5 spots is moronic. Putting him #1 is "full retard".

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I'll bet your coworkers in the break room at Best Buy are fascinated by this list.

[StrongLurk]

I think all-time lists need to be broken into tiers...there is too much bias at the end of the day when it comes to ranking these players when in reality, very little separates all of them. All the players between like 20 and 50...they are all so different and contributed a lot. It's too hard to be like, hey this guy is definitely the 37th best player and this guy is 24th.

In fact I'd also argue that we could even make the rankings separated by general era (pre-three point line, post-three point line).

[ELITEpower23]

I'm sure his "formula" gives the same weight to all nba 3rd team as winning a title. Any "formula" that has Lebron in the top 5 spots is moronic. Putting him #1 is "full retard".

Fuming

https://i.postimg.cc/CLLYX3hJ/2323232424242525252553368210-mwkw818jdwo.gif

LeBron #1 is all I need to see

[Dbrog]

You just got trashed on realgm with this exact same topic. Your list sucks bro :pimp:

[MaxPlayer]

Any "formula" that has Lebron in the top 5 spots is moronic.

LOL wut?

All non-haters have him in the top 5.

[Magic Is Magic]

Hello all, to address some things being talked about

a) The point totals should be looked at going forward from 2021 because in 2020 if the scores are landing at LeBron 220 and MJ 214, I then divided those numbers by 2.5 to find the "perfect" score to be 100.

ex.

LeBron 220 / 2.5 = 88.0
Jordan 214 / 25 = 85.6


b) I can show the breakdown numbers for each category when I get to my computer at home later tonight because right now I do not have access to those files but in a brief summary recap there were at least 25 categories used that have different weighing factors.


ex.

Ring = 1 point
FMVP = 3 points (4 points total for winning FMVP)


Top 3 MVP = 1.5 points
MVP winner = 2.5 points (4 points total for winning MVP)


c) I did not include DPOY winners only because it wasn't awarded until 1984 which would be unfair to many players that played in the 60s, 70s, 80s. I wanted to create a system as fair as can be while not forgetting about throwback legends Dolph Schayes, George Mikan, Bob Cousy, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem even. I wanted to add PO DWS totals but that wasn't awarded until later as well so again that is unfair to the throwback legends so I was forced to remove them.


c) The formula is intended to be unbiased so if someone is feeling upset about a number you have to think why, this is because you do not like the results but the fact is I used the same criteria for each player which means I removed biasm. This means the results are fair for every single player and so with this line of thinking if you think Curry is too low and we need to give more weight to rings then this will drastically increase Russell's ranking and Kawhis rankings when most probably do not think they should be much higher. And if you think Davis is too high and I should add more value to longevity then this gives a bigger boost up to guys like Malone or Dirk. Everything is where it is for a premium balancing factor and nothing can be "perfect"-- or, can it if you are using the same criteria on each player but you just dont like the results?


d) The formula was intended to be fair and unbiased and you can disagree with the results of course we all can including myself but it is a completely fair system that rates every single player on the exact same criteria while looking at over 25 different value factors. This is the key to starting a project like this because as long as your criteria is 100% the same across the board while incorporating numerous categories to draw from I know I can be happy I did not sway into one direction or the other with biased takes against Player A or B. I think my formula also produces great results in the end and while I do not think there is a top 50 list that everyone agrees with, this is a great unbiased starting point to build onto. Some have LBJ #1 some have Michael but in the end if the top 10 looks good then the rest of the results 11-50 shake out via a completely unbiased based formula.

[Gohan]

Cant take a list seriously with iverson not being in the top 10 all time

[nineiron]

MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes

so you're using metrics that are voted on by fat morons like Windhorst to determine the top players? sounds legit.

/thread

[HunterSThompson]

Hello all, to address some things being talked about

a) The point totals should be looked at going forward from 2021 because in 2020 if the scores are landing at LeBron 220 and MJ 214, I then divided those numbers by 2.5 to find the "perfect" score to be 100.

ex.

LeBron 220 / 2.5 = 88.0
Jordan 214 / 25 = 85.6


b) I can show the breakdown numbers for each category when I get to my computer at home later tonight because right now I do not have access to those files but in asummary recap there were at least 25 categories used that have different weighing factors.


ex.

Ring = 1 point
FMVP = 3 points (4 points total for winning FMVP)


Top 3 MVP = 1.5 points
MVP winner = 2.5 points (4 points total for winning MVP)


c) I did not include DPOY winners only because it wasn't awarded until 1984 which would be unfair to many players that played in the 60s, 70s, 80s. I wanted to create a system as fair as can be while not forgetting about throwback legends Dolph Schayes, George Mikan, Bob Cousy, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem even. I wanted to add PO DWS totals but that wasn't awarded until later as well so again that is unfair to the throwback legends so I was forced to remove them.


c) The formula is intended to be unbiased so if someone is feeling upset about a number you have to think why, this is because you do not like the results but the fact is I used the same criteria for each player which means I removed biasm. This means the results are fair for every single player and so with this line of thinking if you think Curry is too low and we need to give more weight to rings then this will drastically increase Russell's ranking and Kawhis rankings when most probably do not think they should be much higher. And if you think Davis is too high and I should add more value to longevity then this gives a bigger boost up to guys like Malone or Dirk. Everything is where it is for a premium balancing factor and nothing can be "perect"-- or, can it if you are using the same criteria on each player bur you just dont like the reults?


d) The formula was intended to be fair and unbiased and you can disagree with the results of course we all can including myself but it is a completely fair system that rates every single player on the exact same criteria while looking at over 25 different value factors. This is the key to starting a project like this because as long as your criteria is 100% the same across the board while incorporating numerous categories to draw from I know I can be happy I did not sway into one direction or the other with biased takes against Player A or B. I think my formula also produces great results in the end and while I do not think there is a top 50 list that everyone agrees with, this is a great unbiased starting point to build onto. Some have LBJ #1 some have Michael but in the end if the top 10 looks good then the rest of the results 11-50 shake out via a completely unbiased based formula.

so you dont include DPOTY because it wasn't an award since the nba began. yet you include finals mvps even though it hurts russell, Wilt and others

wonder why you would favor fmvps and not dpoty awards

[HunterSThompson]

The formula is intended to be unbiased

yet you just ignore scoring titles and finals records.. or anything else that hurts lebron and helps mj lmao


wonder why

[Magic Is Magic]

so you dont include DPOTY because it wasn't an award since the nba began. yet you include finals mvps even though it hurts russell, Wilt and others

wonder why you would favor fmvps and not dpoty awards


yet you just ignore scoring titles and finals records.. or anything else that hurts lebron and helps mj lmao


wonder why

I did give Russell credit for 3 or 4 Finals MVPs, I am not at home to confirm my data yet but he did get Finals MVP credit. Plus the FMVP award started in 1969 which is very different from 1984 by a difference of 15 years. I did not ignore scoring titles, I gave points to those players in top 3 league scoring and top 5 league scoring for every single season ever played. Same for top 3/5 rebounding and assists players. I am comfortable knowing I rated each player with the exact same magnifying glass and did not ignore or disregard certain segments like most usually do. In the end I hope this formula result does not have anyone distraught or in distress as I merely made a formula to create player rankings.

[8Ball]

This list is the closest thing to unbiased list.

Its 100% based on achievements.

There are no subjective arguments.

[8Ball]

so you're using metrics that are voted on by fat morons like Windhorst to determine the top players? sounds legit.

/thread

So MVPs don't count? Why not?

[HunterSThompson]

I did give Russell credit for 3 or 4 Finals MVPs, I am not at home to confirm my data yet but he did get Finals MVP credit. Plus the FMVP award started in 1969 which is very different from 1984 by a difference of 15 years. I did not ignore scoring titles, I gave points to those players in top 3 league scoring and top 5 league scoring for every single season ever played. Same for top 3/5 rebounding and assists players. I am comfortable knowing I rated each player with the exact same magnifying glass and did not ignore or disregard certain segments like most usually do. In the end I hope this formula result does not have anyone distraught or in distress as I merely made a formula to create player rankings.

so you're just making up your own awards


interesting

[8Ball]

so you're just making up your own awards


interesting


He gives weight to each accomplishment and applies it to all players.


The fact that kobe is 9 on this list should show you it is unbiased.

[000]

I use a tier system

Everyone who didnt get owned by a benchplayer in the Nba Finals with a superteam is in Tier 1
The others are in Tier 2

[8Ball]

I use a tier system

Everyone who didnt get owned by a benchplayer in the Nba Finals with a superteam is in Tier 1
The others are in Tier 2


You use a system that came from a brain of a monkey.

No one respects it.

[000]

You use a system that came from a brain of a monkey.

No one respects it.
I guess its a bit of a low bar to pass. Come to think of it, surely thats never happened to anyone in history, right? I'll think of revising my criteria

[8Ball]

I guess its a bit of a low bar to pass. Come to think of it, surely thats never happened to anyone in history, right? I'll think of revising my criteria

Compare your list with every reputable list out there by NBA historians and lets see how you compare.


Nobody respects your list besides other brain dead monkeys.

[000]

Compare your list with every reputable list out there by NBA historians and lets see how you compare.


Nobody respects your list besides other brain dead monkeys.
Nah. Would rather form my own opinion.

Now youre gonna say "ur opinion is stupid cuz ur a dummy!!!" or something like that

[And1AllDay]

kobe should be higher the rest is good, swap mike and kobe and we good

[HunterSThompson]

He gives weight to each accomplishment and applies it to all players.


The fact that kobe is 9 on this list should show you it is unbiased.

kobes 12th though remember. and I don't recall lebron being goat. when did that happen

[8Ball]

kobes 12th though remember. and I don't recall lebron being goat. when did that happen

Bron surpassed Kobe in 2013.

[8Ball]

Hello community,

I created an all-time NBA ranking metric algorithm and every year I update the numbers after the playoffs have concluded. The big mover after 2021 is Giannis but his career is still young and he did not jump as many spots as most people think but the good news is he has so many more years to build on his steady foundation. At the end of 2020 Giannis was 38th and now after his impressive 2021 showing he is ranked 31. Like I'm saying his career is still so early he has plenty of time to keep rising. So does Curry, Harden and Durant but for guys like Westbrook his best years are well behind him. I use a 25-point ranking system that takes many things into consideration, things like MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes, Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/48 over .250, BPM over 7.0 (these are all looked at for RS and PO), All star selections, and other categories. After all these data points and calculations here is what the results produced from my "Magic is Magic, Magic Formula"

1 ...LeBron James = 87.76
2 ...Michael Jordan = 85.02
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar = 72.92
4 ...Tim Duncan = 57.79
5 ...Bill Russell = 56.13
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain = 54.99
7 ...Magic Johnson = 48.61
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal = 46.63
9 ...Kobe Bryant = 42.73
10 ...Larry Bird = 39.21
11 ...Hakeem Olajuwon = 35.54
12 ...Kevin Durant = 33.25
13 ...Karl Malone = 32.76
14 ...Jerry West = 32.13
15 ...Dirk Nowitzki = 31.22
16 ...Moses Malone = 28.59
17 ...David Robinson = 28.39
18 ...Oscar Robertson = 28.37
19 ...Chris Paul = 28.18
20 ...George Mikan = 27.85
21 ...Bob Cousy = 27.78
22 ...Kevin Garnett = 27.44
23 ...Julius Erving = 27.40
24 ...Bob Pettit = 26.49
25 ...Kawhi Leonard = 23.91
26 ...James Harden = 23.63
27 ...Charles Barkley = 22.78
28 ...John Havlicek = 22.39
29 ...John Stockton = 21.81
30 ...Stephen Curry = 21.31
31 ...Giannis Antetekuompo = 21.23
32 ...Dwyane Wade = 20.52
33 ...Dolph Schayes = 20.06
34 ...Jason Kidd = 20.04
35 ...Elgin Baylor = 18.81
36 ...Willis Reed = 17.61
37 ...Scottie Pippen = 17.41
38 ...Steve Nash = 17.40
39 ...Russell Westbrook = 16.82
40 ...Elvin Hayes = 14.37
41 ...Rick Barry = 14.02
42 ...Walt Frazier = 13.82
43 ...Anthony Davis = 13.32
44 ...Allen Iverson = 13.11
45 ...George Gervin = 13.05
46 ...Patrick Ewing = 12.50
47 ...Isiah Thomas = 12.00
48 ...Paul Pierce = 10.86
49 ...Bill Walton = 10.78
50 ...Artis Gilmore = 10.50

Giannis' impressive run jumped him up from 38 to 31 where he passed up
Elgin Baylor
Scottie Pippen
Jason Kidd
Willis Reed
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade

His combination of winning DPOY, FMVP, 2 MVPs with a lot of strong seasons has almost leaped him into top 30. I expect him to have a chance at top 10 if he can keep up his impressive play and suppress KD from winning MVP or FMVP he has strong for top 10.

I thought Giannis would be around top 20 at worse.

Seems like he hasn't racked up much longevity so that bites him in the ass for this ranking.

Bill Simmons puts Giannis at 25 so you aren't that far off for rankings.

[Magic Is Magic]

Here are the categories I used and the scored weighting for each category

Category --------> Wtd
MVPS ------------> 6.60
All NBA 1st -----> 1.35
All Def 1st -----> 0.75
All NBA 2nd -----> 0.95
All Def 2nd -----> 0.40
FMVP -----------> 6.60
RS WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.50
RS BPM > 7 ------> 0.50
PO WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.85
PO BPM > 7 ------> 0.85
PO VORP > 2.5 ----> 3.50
TOP 3 in MVP -----> 2.40
Top 5 in MVP -----> 0.65
RS PER > 25.0 -----> 0.50
PO PER > 25.0 -----> 0.85
RS Top 3 Reb -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Reb -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Ast -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Ast -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Pts -----> 0.90
RS Top 5 Pts -----> 0.30
Ring champ -----> 2.40
Playoff WS ------> 0.50
All-Star Selections ---> 0.40
Reg Season WS ------> 0.04

I'll post my updated top 50 results after I made this slight tweak later tonight. I gave a little more weight to Rings, moving Chris Paul down some and Curry up some.

[kawhileonard2]

:roll: These arbitrary ratings. Let's give 50.0 for MVP, 50.0 for Finals mvp. What about scoring title in the season as well?

[nayte]

You need more of a sliding scale instead of top 3 or five.even if you come 50th you deserve a few points. Your basically rewarding stat padding.same with per and mvps

Also you just can't guess how many fmvps Russell and wilt would have got.lol.totally invalidates the whole point. Anyways I can't quite get behind it.

[Spurs m8]

Stopped reading after your retarded ranking put a player not in the top 5, at 1.

Rework your formula

[Spurs m8]

:roll: These arbitrary ratings. Let's give 50.0 for MVP, 50.0 for Finals mvp. What about scoring title in the season as well?

That would go against his narrative.

He clearly tweaked it for the outcome he wanted lmfao

[HunterSThompson]

Bron surpassed Kobe in 2013.

yeah cause hes 12th remember. so this list must be bogus

[HunterSThompson]

Here are the categories I used and the scored weighting for each category

Category --------> Wtd
MVPS ------------> 6.60
All NBA 1st -----> 1.35
All Def 1st -----> 0.75
All NBA 2nd -----> 0.95
All Def 2nd -----> 0.40
FMVP -----------> 6.60
RS WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.50
RS BPM > 7 ------> 0.50
PO WS/48 > 0.25 ---> 0.85
PO BPM > 7 ------> 0.85
PO VORP > 2.5 ----> 3.50
TOP 3 in MVP -----> 2.40
Top 5 in MVP -----> 0.65
RS PER > 25.0 -----> 0.50
PO PER > 25.0 -----> 0.85
RS Top 3 Reb -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Reb -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Ast -----> 0.75
RS Top 5 Ast -----> 0.25
RS Top 3 Pts -----> 0.90
RS Top 5 Pts -----> 0.30
Ring champ -----> 2.40
Playoff WS ------> 0.50
All-Star Selections ---> 0.40
Reg Season WS ------> 0.04

I'll post my updated top 50 results after I made this slight tweak later tonight. I gave a little more weight to Rings, moving Chris Paul down some and Curry up some.

an MVP shouldn't be worth 5 times more than a 1st team all nba... a lot of the time the mvp award is subjective and guys lose out on it by a hair. at least 3 out of 5 first team all nba players are basically as good and sometimes better than the guy than won mvp


you actually think steve nash was 5 times better than shaq and kobe when he won his mvps lol

[8Ball]

an MVP shouldn't be worth 5 times more than a 1st team all nba... a lot of the time the mvp award is subjective and guys lose out on it by a hair. at least 3 out of 5 first team all nba players are basically as good and sometimes better than the guy than won mvp


you actually think steve nash was 5 times better than shaq and kobe when he won his mvps lol


These weights don't say Nash is 5 times better than Shaq when he won his mvps.


Every goat ranking has mvps incorporated into it and mvps are valued a hell of a lot more than 1st team nbas.

[8Ball]

:roll: These arbitrary ratings. Let's give 50.0 for MVP, 50.0 for Finals mvp. What about scoring title in the season as well?

Scoring titles are useless. Last 20 scoring champs havent won the title.


He has top 3 in scoring incorporated in the rankings.

[HunterSThompson]

Scoring titles are useless. Last 20 scoring champs havent won the title.


He has top 3 in scoring incorporated in the rankings.


2001 MVP = didn't win title
2002 MVP = didn't win title
2004 MVP = didn't win title
2005 MVP = didn't win title
2006 MVP = didn't win title
2007 MVP = didn't win title
2008 MVP = didn't win title
2009 MVP = didn't win title
2010 MVP = didn't win title
2011 MVP = didn't win title
2013 MVP = didn't win title ( ray allen did )
2014 MVP = didn't win title
2016 MVP = didn't win title
2017 MVP = didn't win title
2018 MVP = didn't win title
2019 MVP = didn't win title
2020 MVP = didn't win title
2021 MVP = didn't win title


MVP's = useless

[8Ball]

2012 mvp won title
2013 mvp won title
2015 mvp won title
2003 mvp won title

Last 20 scoring titles = 0 championships.

[HunterSThompson]

2012 mvp won title
2013 mvp won title
2015 mvp won title
2003 mvp won title

Last 20 scoring titles = 0 championships.

yeah but that 2012 mvp had a rigged series vs boston

and that 2013 mvp had a bail out by ray allen

that 2015 mvp was carried by a guy off the bench the last 3 games

and that 2003 mvp probably shoulda gone to kobe who also should have eliminated sanantonio if horry makes one shot during their series


4 flukes outa 20? not great...

and truthfully the only reason scoring title winners don't win titles as often anymore is mostly because of your guy lebron making superteams the only way to win titles anymore without a bunch of flukes and injuries going a teams way like this season

if anything the scoring title probably has more legitimacy than most nba champions from the 2010's

[8Ball]

4 flukes out of 20 is bad.

Yet 0 out of 20 is better.

[kawhileonard2]

Scoring titles are useless. Last 20 scoring champs havent won the title.


He has top 3 in scoring incorporated in the rankings.

Doesn't mean anything. Shaq, MJ, Kareem all won titles while winning the scoring title the same year.

[HunterSThompson]

4 flukes out of 20 is bad.

Yet 0 out of 20 is better.

there could just as easily have been 4 scoring title champions from the last 20 years had phil not handcuffed kobe


you're acting like kobe couldn't have averaged 33-35 every year like he did in 06 and 07. phil literally asked him not to so shaq and pau would be happier

[iamgine]

c) The formula is intended to be unbiased so if someone is feeling upset about a number you have to think why, this is because you do not like the results but the fact is I used the same criteria for each player which means I removed biasm. This means the results are fair for every single player and so with this line of thinking if you think Curry is too low and we need to give more weight to rings then this will drastically increase Russell's ranking and Kawhis rankings when most probably do not think they should be much higher. And if you think Davis is too high and I should add more value to longevity then this gives a bigger boost up to guys like Malone or Dirk. Everything is where it is for a premium balancing factor and nothing can be "perfect"-- or, can it if you are using the same criteria on each player but you just dont like the results?


d) The formula was intended to be fair and unbiased and you can disagree with the results of course we all can including myself but it is a completely fair system that rates every single player on the exact same criteria while looking at over 25 different value factors. This is the key to starting a project like this because as long as your criteria is 100% the same across the board while incorporating numerous categories to draw from I know I can be happy I did not sway into one direction or the other with biased takes against Player A or B. I think my formula also produces great results in the end and while I do not think there is a top 50 list that everyone agrees with, this is a great unbiased starting point to build onto. Some have LBJ #1 some have Michael but in the end if the top 10 looks good then the rest of the results 11-50 shake out via a completely unbiased based formula.

Even these sentence shows that there are plenty of bias. If we value rebounds, then we'll give it more value, which will benefit rebounding players more. That's clearly bias. I'm not saying it is worse than doing it without a formula, but to say it is unbiased is just ridiculous.

And then there's the trap of "tweaking the formula so the end result looks good". If for example, the end result shows MJ at 5th or David Robinson at top 10, then we'll try to tweak the formula so the end result looks like what we think it should look like. How is that not bias? This is an inherent problem with something like this.

[Spurs m8]

Even these sentence shows that there are plenty of bias. If we value rebounds, then we'll give it more value, which will benefit rebounding players more. That's clearly bias. I'm not saying it is worse than doing it without a formula, but to say it is unbiased is just ridiculous.

And then there's the trap of "tweaking the formula so the end result looks good". If for example, the end result shows MJ at 5th or David Robinson at top 10, then we'll try to tweak the formula so the end result looks like what we think it should look like. How is that not bias? This is an inherent problem with something like this.

:applause:

[Magic Is Magic]

Okay here are the updated top 50 ranks from the unbiased formula and as a reminder to all this formula is the same criteria used to score rate every player equally.

1. LeBron James ... 93.2
2. Michael Jordan ... 91.0
3. Kareem A-Jabbar ... 78.4
4. Bill Russell ... 63.2
5. Tim Duncan ... 61.4
6. Wilt Chamberlain ... 58.3
7. Magic Johnson ... 53.6
8. Shaquille O'Neal ... 49.8
9. Kobe Bryant ... 46.2
10. Larry Bird ... 43.1
11. Hakeem Olajuwon ... 37.1
12. Kevin Durant ... 35.4
13. Jerry West ... 35.4
14. Karl Malone ... 34.5
15. Dirk Nowitzki ... 32.7
16. David Robinson ... 31.4
17. Oscar Robertson ... 30.7
18. Moses Malone ... 30.5
19. Bob Cousy ... 30.5
20. George Mikan ... 30.1
21. Julius Erving ... 29.2
22. Chris Paul ... 28.8
23. Bob Pettit ... 28.6
24. Kevin Garnett ... 28.6
25. Kawhi Leonard ... 25.4
26. James Harden ... 25.3
27. John Havlicek ... 25.0
28. Stephen Curry ... 23.6
29. Charles Barkley ... 23.5
30. Jason Kidd ... 23.4
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo ... 22.4
32. Dwyane Wade ... 21.9
33. John Stockton ... 21.8
34. Dolph Schayes ... 20.8
35 Elgin Baylor ... 20.1
36. Scottie Pippen ... 19.7
37. Willis Reed ... 19.1
38. Steve Nash ... 18.5
39. Russell Westbrook ... 17.2
40. Elvin Hayes ... 15.3
41.. Walt Frazier ... 14.5
42. Rick Barry ... 14.4
43. George Gervin ... 14.0
44. Anthony Davis ... 14.0
45. Allen Iverson ... 13.5
46. Bill Walton ... 13.4
47. Isiah Thomas ... 12.7
48. Patrick Ewing ... 12.5
49. Paul Pierce ... 11.3
50. Artis Gilmore ... 10.7

[Magic Is Magic]

Even these sentence shows that there are plenty of bias. If we value rebounds, then we'll give it more value, which will benefit rebounding players more. That's clearly bias. I'm not saying it is worse than doing it without a formula, but to say it is unbiased is just ridiculous.

And then there's the trap of "tweaking the formula so the end result looks good". If for example, the end result shows MJ at 5th or David Robinson at top 10, then we'll try to tweak the formula so the end result looks like what we think it should look like. How is that not bias? This is an inherent problem with something like this.

The part you are missing is that it created a nearly perfect top 10 list meaning the formula works, then when you apply that same criteria to the remaining slots from 11 to 50 the results will shake out for themselves. There is no need to contradict or be biased like many others often do. As an example someone will highly value rings but disregard Russell from top 5 talk. Or someone will highly value quality longevity but not have Malone in the top 15. Or someone will highly value two way players but not have Chris Paul in the top 25. If a well constructed magic formula can create a rock solid top ten then there is no reason why I cannot apply it to all players equally and while we can know that some will know love the results spitting out they are fair as the multiple thought out criteria is equal to all players.

[iamgine]

The part you are missing is that it created a nearly perfect top 10 list meaning the formula works, then when you apply that same criteria to the remaining slots from 11 to 50 the results will shake out for themselves. There is no need to contradict or be biased like many others often do. As an example someone will highly value rings but disregard Russell from top 5 talk. Or someone will highly value quality longevity but not have Malone in the top 15. Or someone will highly value two way players but not have Chris Paul in the top 25. If a well constructed magic formula can create a rock solid top ten then there is no reason why I cannot apply it to all players equally and while we can know that some will know love the results spitting out they are fair as the multiple thought out criteria is equal to all players.
Nearly perfect according to who/what?

This doesn't answer the flaws I pointed out at all.

[nayte]

Nearly perfect according to who/what?

This doesn't answer the flaws I pointed out at all.

Neither any of mine. I don't think he is interested in any constructive criticism. He has just made numbers to fit what he feels is his top ten

[Spurs m8]

as a reminder to all this formula is the same criteria used to score rate every player equally

That doesn't mean it's not biased lmfao
You still haven't addressed many things

One being where is scoring title?

A very big achievement, that also takes into account inflated stats from today's game.

If there's no scoring title in there, then it's a trash ratings system

[Spurs m8]

Just look at the list....its laughable

[8Ball]

That doesn't mean it's not biased lmfao
You still haven't addressed many things

One being where is scoring title?

A very big achievement, that also takes into account inflated stats from today's game.

If there's no scoring title in there, then it's a trash ratings system

You have yet to explain why scoring titles are relevant.

Top 3 scoring in a season is on the list.

Someone that scores 30.1 ppg is practically no different than someone that scores 30ppg.


Many little things. And scoring titles is all you have a problem with? Looks like your arguments against this list has been refuted.

[8Ball]

Neither any of mine. I don't think he is interested in any constructive criticism. He has just made numbers to fit what he feels is his top ten

Wrong.


Go look up realgm list. Espn list. Bill simmons list and his list is very close using completely non bias data.


Your list is insanely biased and you can't explain properly why your list is better than his.


In fact. Post your list right here. Lets see your list before you talk about his being off.

[8Ball]

Nearly perfect according to who/what?

This doesn't answer the flaws I pointed out at all.


Espn list.
Realgm list
Bill simmons list


It matched that list in the top 10 very well.


If you put too much weight to one criteria incorrectly it debalances the rankings. His rankings as balanced all the way down with very little outliers.



Anyone that has a list is subconsciously using a weighting system in their own head, just not putting exact weights to it.

[basketballcat]

top 10 is not bad. It gets really iffy after that (e.g Chris Paul over Garnett, Kawhi?).

Agree that Giannis so far is in the 31 to 50 range.

[iamgine]

Espn list.
Realgm list
Bill simmons list


It matched that list in the top 10 very well.


If you put too much weight to one criteria incorrectly it debalances the rankings. His rankings as balanced all the way down with very little outliers.



Anyone that has a list is subconsciously using a weighting system in their own head, just not putting exact weights to it.

That is a fallacy since the rankings in those lists are seen as biased by OP. So why would matching those lists be called near perfect?

[8Ball]

That is a fallacy since the rankings in those lists are seen as biased by OP. So why would matching those lists be called near perfect?


Because those lists have a near consensus top 10 even with heavy bias.


OP is a tiny bit different without the bias.


So I see you have no problem with OP top 10?

[iamgine]

Because those lists have a near consensus top 10 even with heavy bias.


OP is a tiny bit different without the bias.


So I see you have no problem with OP top 10?
Nope, just that it's also biased and the logic is flawed.

[8Ball]

Bill Simmons List:

1 Michael Jordan
2 LeBron James
3 Bill Russell
4 Kareem
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Wilt
8 Tim Duncan
9 Kobe
10 Jerry West


Real GM List

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird


ESPN List:

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O'Neal


Magic List:

1 ...LeBron James
2 ...Michael Jordan
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar
4 ...Tim Duncan
5 ...Bill Russell
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain
7 ...Magic Johnson
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal
9 ...Kobe Bryant
10 ...Larry Bird


I see a really good list.

Bill Simmons has the worse one with too much ancient historical weighting with Jerry West in there, but who is it that bad?


Magic's list is nearly identical to RealGM's list. RealGM's list was based off votes from non dumbass posters and it produced a nearly identical list.


People that are hating on this list need to put actual concrete arguments towards why it is worse than other lists out there.

[nayte]

Wrong.


Go look up realgm list. Espn list. Bill simmons list and his list is very close using completely non bias data.


Your list is insanely biased and you can't explain properly why your list is better than his.


In fact. Post your list right here. Lets see your list before you talk about his being off.

I don't like lists I think they are stupid. But talking about stupid. That's you. All of the adjustments I questioned would actually put your man even further ahead but because you are stupid you didn't realise that. So congrats for you for being to stupid to know when an argument helps you ..

So just to be sure you are as stupid as stupid can be..lol congrats

[8Ball]

You need more of a sliding scale instead of top 3 or five.even if you come 50th you deserve a few points. Your basically rewarding stat padding.same with per and mvps

Also you just can't guess how many fmvps Russell and wilt would have got.lol.totally invalidates the whole point. Anyways I can't quite get behind it.

This is your only criticism:

1) Sliding scale.
2) Guessing FMVPS of Bill Russell.


For 1 - It is almost insignificant to be adding sliding scale. Nobody cares what the 45th best scorer / assist / rebounder in 2021 does. LeBron shouldn't get all time points added to his resume just because he is the 30th best rebounder in the league in 2021. His rebounding totals will be reflected in PER points in weighting.


For 2 - It is a given they would have won the FMVP in the years where that award didn't exist. Why penalize a player for not winning that award when that award doesn't exist? Doesn't seem fair.


The last time someone called me stupid and called me out on these forums got completely blasted in a real life net worth dick waving contest.

[nayte]

You double down on stupid..
I can't.. :facepalm

[8Ball]

Not 1 list on earth uses sliding scale. Suddenly its stupid not to have sliding scale up to 50.

Explain why.

[tanibanana]

Hello community,

I created an all-time NBA ranking metric algorithm and every year I update the numbers after the playoffs have concluded. The big mover after 2021 is Giannis but his career is still young and he did not jump as many spots as most people think but the good news is he has so many more years to build on his steady foundation. At the end of 2020 Giannis was 38th and now after his impressive 2021 showing he is ranked 31. Like I'm saying his career is still so early he has plenty of time to keep rising. So does Curry, Harden and Durant but for guys like Westbrook his best years are well behind him. I use a 25-point ranking system that takes many things into consideration, things like MVP winners, FMVP winners, Rings, All NBA 1st team and 2nd team, All Defensive 1st and 2nd team, Top 3 MVP finishes, Top 5 MVP finishes, Top 3 Rebounding, Top 5 rebounding, PER over 25.0, WS/48 over .250, BPM over 7.0 (these are all looked at for RS and PO), All star selections, and other categories. After all these data points and calculations here is what the results produced from my "Magic is Magic, Magic Formula"

1 ...LeBron James = 87.76
2 ...Michael Jordan = 85.02
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar = 72.92
4 ...Tim Duncan = 57.79
5 ...Bill Russell = 56.13
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain = 54.99
7 ...Magic Johnson = 48.61
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal = 46.63
9 ...Kobe Bryant = 42.73
10 ...Larry Bird = 39.21
11 ...Hakeem Olajuwon = 35.54
12 ...Kevin Durant = 33.25
13 ...Karl Malone = 32.76
14 ...Jerry West = 32.13
15 ...Dirk Nowitzki = 31.22
16 ...Moses Malone = 28.59
17 ...David Robinson = 28.39
18 ...Oscar Robertson = 28.37
19 ...Chris Paul = 28.18
20 ...George Mikan = 27.85
21 ...Bob Cousy = 27.78
22 ...Kevin Garnett = 27.44
23 ...Julius Erving = 27.40
24 ...Bob Pettit = 26.49
25 ...Kawhi Leonard = 23.91
26 ...James Harden = 23.63
27 ...Charles Barkley = 22.78
28 ...John Havlicek = 22.39
29 ...John Stockton = 21.81
30 ...Stephen Curry = 21.31
31 ...Giannis Antetekuompo = 21.23
32 ...Dwyane Wade = 20.52
33 ...Dolph Schayes = 20.06
34 ...Jason Kidd = 20.04
35 ...Elgin Baylor = 18.81
36 ...Willis Reed = 17.61
37 ...Scottie Pippen = 17.41
38 ...Steve Nash = 17.40
39 ...Russell Westbrook = 16.82
40 ...Elvin Hayes = 14.37
41 ...Rick Barry = 14.02
42 ...Walt Frazier = 13.82
43 ...Anthony Davis = 13.32
44 ...Allen Iverson = 13.11
45 ...George Gervin = 13.05
46 ...Patrick Ewing = 12.50
47 ...Isiah Thomas = 12.00
48 ...Paul Pierce = 10.86
49 ...Bill Walton = 10.78
50 ...Artis Gilmore = 10.50

Giannis' impressive run jumped him up from 38 to 31 where he passed up
Elgin Baylor
Scottie Pippen
Jason Kidd
Willis Reed
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade

His combination of winning DPOY, FMVP, 2 MVPs with a lot of strong seasons has almost leaped him into top 30. I expect him to have a chance at top 10 if he can keep up his impressive play and suppress KD from winning MVP or FMVP he has strong for top 10.

Pretty accurate ranking... does the ABA accolades/accomplishment included in your metrics..

[HunterSThompson]

Bill Simmons List:

1 Michael Jordan
2 LeBron James
3 Bill Russell
4 Kareem
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Wilt
8 Tim Duncan
9 Kobe
10 Jerry West


Real GM List

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird


ESPN List:

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O'Neal


Magic List:

1 ...LeBron James
2 ...Michael Jordan
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar
4 ...Tim Duncan
5 ...Bill Russell
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain
7 ...Magic Johnson
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal
9 ...Kobe Bryant
10 ...Larry Bird


I see a really good list.

Bill Simmons has the worse one with too much ancient historical weighting with Jerry West in there, but who is it that bad?


Magic's list is nearly identical to RealGM's list. RealGM's list was based off votes from non dumbass posters and it produced a nearly identical list.


People that are hating on this list need to put actual concrete arguments towards why it is worse than other lists out there.

why do people take online message board/website geeks opinions from places where they ban kobe fans or don't hire kobe fans over that of actual nba legends, coaches lol.. never made sense to me. i was literally banned from realGM for making a post about how kobe being ranked behind garnett and karl malone all time wasn't accurate

[nayte]

Not 1 list on earth uses sliding scale. Suddenly its stupid not to have sliding scale up to 50.

Explain why.

This is why you are stupid. I never said you should use that. I said in the context of his top 3 or 5 rankings for points. But you were too excited to get some sort of gotcha point. And now you sound stupid . Once again Congrats for making yourself even more........
.

[ELITEpower23]

Bill Simmons List:

1 Michael Jordan
2 LeBron James
3 Bill Russell
4 Kareem
5 Magic
6 Bird
7 Wilt
8 Tim Duncan
9 Kobe
10 Jerry West


Real GM List

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird


ESPN List:

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Larry Bird
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaquille O'Neal


Magic List:

1 ...LeBron James
2 ...Michael Jordan
3 ...Kareem A-Jabbar
4 ...Tim Duncan
5 ...Bill Russell
6 ...Wilt Chamberlain
7 ...Magic Johnson
8 ...Shaquille O'Neal
9 ...Kobe Bryant
10 ...Larry Bird


I see a really good list.

Bill Simmons has the worse one with too much ancient historical weighting with Jerry West in there, but who is it that bad?


Magic's list is nearly identical to RealGM's list. RealGM's list was based off votes from non dumbass posters and it produced a nearly identical list.


People that are hating on this list need to put actual concrete arguments towards why it is worse than other lists out there.


Bang! 8ball got these kids in a headlock!

[ELITEpower23]

why do people take online message board/website geeks opinions from places where they ban kobe fans or don't hire kobe fans over that of actual nba legends, coaches lol.. never made sense to me. i was literally banned from realGM for making a post about how kobe being ranked behind garnett and karl malone all time wasn't accurate

Meltdown. Jesus dude, get a grip. Kobe is 9-12, accept it

[Magic Is Magic]

After listening to some feedback and adding a few more elements into the formula there are some slightly different results in the middle of the list. The top ten is mostly still the same (Russell and Duncan swapped places) but the top twelve is mostly set now and these players are usually in everyone's top twelve. The changes made added slightly more value to winning an MVP, FMVP, Scoring top 3, Winning a Scoring Title, and MVP Win shares. These extra categories and score bumps added a nice smoothing effect that makes the results even harder to argue against. Here is the Magic formula it produces with the updates

1. LeBron James 96.4
2. Michael Jordan 95.4
3. Kareem A-Jabbar 80.9
4. Bill Russell 65.1
5. Tim Duncan 63.0
6. Wilt Chamberlain 61.0
7. Magic Johnson 55.2
8. Shaquille O'Neal 51.4
9. Kobe Bryant 48.3
10. Larry Bird 45.3
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 38.2
12. Kevin Durant 36.9
13. Jerry West 36.0
14. Karl Malone 36.0
15. Dirk Nowitzki 33.0
16. David Robinson 31.9
17. Oscar Robertson 31.5
18. Moses Malone 31.5
19. Bob Cousy 30.5
20. George Mikan 30.5
21. Julius Erving 30.4
22. Chris Paul 29.9
23. Bob Pettit 29.9
24. Kevin Garnett 28.8
25. Kawhi Leonard 27.0
26. James Harden 25.6
27. John Havlicek 24.8
28. Stephen Curry 24.7
29. Charles Barkley 24.1
30. Jason Kidd 23.7
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo 23.2
32. Dwyane Wade 22.3
33. John Stockton 21.6
34. Dolph Schayes 20.7
35. Elgin Baylor 20.6
36. Scottie Pippen 19.9
37. Willis Reed 19.5
38. Steve Nash 19.4
39. Russell Westbrook 18.1
40. Elvin Hayes 15.5
41. Walt Frazier 15.2
42. Rick Barry 14.9
43. George Gervin 14.8
44. Anthony Davis 14.4
45. Allen Iverson 14.0
46. Gary Payton 13.5
47. Bill Walton 13.3
48. Isiah Thomas 12.8
49. Patrick Ewing 11.2
50. Paul Pierce 11.0
Players Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Artis Gilmore, Chauncy Billups, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller were on the cusp of top 50 but did not make the point cut off. Paul Pierce's FMVP is what put him over most of these other players. Nothing is perfect and the formula is a work in progress as all things should be, after all times and things change but this is a very solid list and formula that I am proud to stand by.

[HunterSThompson]

After listening to some feedback and adding a few more elements into the formula there are some slightly different results in the middle of the list. The top ten is mostly still the same (Russell and Duncan swapped places) but the top twelve is mostly set now and these players are usually in everyone's top twelve. The changes made added slightly more value to winning an MVP, FMVP, Scoring top 3, Winning a Scoring Title, and MVP Win shares. These extra categories and score bumps added a nice smoothing effect that makes the results even harder to argue against. Here is the Magic formula it produces with the updates

1. LeBron James 96.4
2. Michael Jordan 95.4
3. Kareem A-Jabbar 80.9
4. Bill Russell 65.1
5. Tim Duncan 63.0
6. Wilt Chamberlain 61.0
7. Magic Johnson 55.2
8. Shaquille O'Neal 51.4
9. Kobe Bryant 48.3
10. Larry Bird 45.3
11. Hakeem Olajuwon 38.2
12. Kevin Durant 36.9
13. Jerry West 36.0
14. Karl Malone 36.0
15. Dirk Nowitzki 33.0
16. David Robinson 31.9
17. Oscar Robertson 31.5
18. Moses Malone 31.5
19. Bob Cousy 30.5
20. George Mikan 30.5
21. Julius Erving 30.4
22. Chris Paul 29.9
23. Bob Pettit 29.9
24. Kevin Garnett 28.8
25. Kawhi Leonard 27.0
26. James Harden 25.6
27. John Havlicek 24.8
28. Stephen Curry 24.7
29. Charles Barkley 24.1
30. Jason Kidd 23.7
31. Giannis Antetokuonmpo 23.2
32. Dwyane Wade 22.3
33. John Stockton 21.6
34. Dolph Schayes 20.7
35. Elgin Baylor 20.6
36. Scottie Pippen 19.9
37. Willis Reed 19.5
38. Steve Nash 19.4
39. Russell Westbrook 18.1
40. Elvin Hayes 15.5
41. Walt Frazier 15.2
42. Rick Barry 14.9
43. George Gervin 14.8
44. Anthony Davis 14.4
45. Allen Iverson 14.0
46. Gary Payton 13.5
47. Bill Walton 13.3
48. Isiah Thomas 12.8
49. Patrick Ewing 11.2
50. Paul Pierce 11.0
Players Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Artis Gilmore, Chauncy Billups, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller were on the cusp of top 50 but did not make the point cut off. Paul Pierce's FMVP is what put him over most of these other players. Nothing is perfect and the formula is a work in progress as all things should be, after all times and things change but this is a very solid list and formula that I am proud to stand by.

nope. still doesn't work. make a formula where the consensus lines up and it will make sense. 1 out of every 100 people probably say lebrons the goat.. it just doesn't work

[Magic Is Magic]

nope. still doesn't work. make a formula where the consensus lines up and it will make sense. 1 out of every 100 people probably say lebrons the goat.. it just doesn't work

Hi Hunter, I apologize if my Magic formula has made you distraught and it sounds like your disdain for LeBron forced you to focus on him and solely him within a well thought out list of fifty players and yes you heard right 5-0 all time greats being listed and compared against one another but all you are harrowing in on is LeBron's place on the list. I cant comprehend that level of narrow minded thinking and I ask that you do not let this list put you in distress, rest easy this list is not meant to make you distraught it is meant to show that you can judge players on an equally level playing field and produce results that are fair to all 60 NBA players that were assessed in equal fashion.

[HunterSThompson]

Hi Hunter, I apologize if my Magic formula has made you distraught and it sounds like your disdain for LeBron forced you to focus on him and solely him within a well thought out list of fifty players and yes you heard right 5-0 all time greats being listed and compared against one another but all you are harrowing in on is LeBron's place on the list. I cant comprehend that level of narrow minded thinking and I ask that you do not let this list put you in distress, rest easy this list is not meant to make you distraught it is meant to show that you can judge players on an equally level playing field and produce results that are fair to all 60 NBA players that were assessed in equal fashion.

hunter?

i'm griff you numbskull... ditch the formula

[SaintzFury13]

Any "formula" that has Lebron in the top 5 spots is moronic.

How so?

[HunterSThompson]

How so?

because hes not top 5 ..

its not just about career totals. its about impact, respect, primes, peaks, eras, how you won, who you won with, how you got your teammates, how loyal you were, how you handled rebuilds and adversity, how you performed in the biggest moments, how many times you cost your team titles...

its not just about career playoff points, triple doubles and leading in rebounds and assists during a finals lol

[Magic Is Magic]

How so?

There is no logical explanation for a comment like that one. LeBron has been leading in so many categories that show value that it would be a flawed formula that did not include him at the lowest top 2. I've dug into this data and there is no way you can drown him out of the top 3 when he has too many records like Most All NBAs, Most MVP win shares, Most Playoff WS. It just cannot bring about sense to exclude him from the top 3 at lowest.

[Magic Is Magic]

because hes not top 5 ..

its not just about career totals. its about impact, respect, primes, peaks, eras, how you won, who you won with, how you got your teammates, how loyal you were, how you handled rebuilds and adversity, how you performed in the biggest moments, how many times you cost your team titles...

its not just about career playoff points, triple doubles and leading in rebounds and assists during a finals lol

Hunter I did not include any weighted metrics for finals only stats and I did not include anything for triple doubles so we agree there so I request you to clear your mind and see we agree on more than you realize we do.

[HunterSThompson]

There is no logical explanation for a comment like that one. LeBron has been leading in so many categories that show value that it would be a flawed formula that did not include him at the lowest top 2.

thats just your opinion though. a lot of the games greatest players didn't play for very long due to coming out of 4 years of college or just saying f*ck it i'm way ahead of everyone early on in the nba's age

wilt chamberlain left a lot on the table just cause he thought nobody would ever come close to topping him. then regretted retiring early when kareem topped him in scoring

jordan retired multiple times because the game was too easy and he accomplished enough to be cemented as goat. if he still had someone to chase i bet he doesn't take that extra half a year off in 95 or 99, 00 and 01 off

bird had back issues that kept him from accumulating a ton of totals

magic had aids

kobe had the achilles

shaq was lazy and thought he did enough to be an all time great after just 3 titles and he stopped trying

bill russell got tired of winning and left when the celtics were still solid and hondo was about to enter his prime



and then you factor in that lebron only held onto his peak because of steroids... and the next all time great will think he needs to hang on to do more and so on and so on. its a major advantage for those that came later and especially with statistical categories and new awards popping up after a guy already finished his career.. or the implementation of the three point line that probably cost rick barry and jerry west a ton of points and possibly titles since they didn't have that luxury

and it wasn't utilized like today so larry bird rarely shot it. had it been more popular in the 80s bird likely averages 30+ for his career

and then theres pace changes and a lack of competitiveness. or rule changes making it easier for guys... this is why the eye test and using context trumps all formulas anyone can come up with because the criteria and scales to judge guys changes every 10 years

[HunterSThompson]

Hunter I did not include any weighted metrics for finals only stats and I did not include anything for triple doubles so we agree there so I request you to clear your mind and see we agree on more than you realize we do.

stop calling me hunter

[SaintzFury13]

because hes not top 5 ..

its not just about career totals. its about impact, respect, primes, peaks, eras, how you won, who you won with, how you got your teammates, how loyal you were, how you handled rebuilds and adversity, how you performed in the biggest moments, how many times you cost your team titles...

its not just about career playoff points, triple doubles and leading in rebounds and assists during a finals lol

Literally no one in the entire world of Professional Basketball ranks their top ten all time greatest players based on this. You included those meaningless things into this discussion just to have a reason to take LeBron out of the top 5 because when you factor in everything that actually matters, LeBron is not only a top 5 all time great but has a legitimate case to be made for the second greatest player of all time. Why on earth should any of us care about who a player won with when factoring in their place in NBA history and somehow use that as a negative? If that's the case then Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant both don't deserve to be included in any top 5 all time great list (even though Kobe Bryant isn't a top five all time great anyways so it doesn't matter). How the hell does how you got your teammates matter? At the end of the day it all comes down to what you do out there on the basketball court. Why the hell should I care if a guy got another all star to play on his team because he threatened to tell the world about the time he ****ed his friends girlfriend at a graduation party? Loyalty? Are you shitting me with this? LeBron came back to Cleveland after they gave him no real reason to begin with and they ****ed him over AGAIN the second time. The last one is too stupid for me to even bother explaining. Some players were fortunate to not have to deal with a rebuild situation.

At the very least, TRY to be objective. No person with a functioning brain at this point would have LeBron outside of their top five. He has more than earned his place in that regard.


thats just your opinion though. a lot of the games greatest players didn't play for very long due to coming out of 4 years of college or just saying f*ck it i'm way ahead of everyone early on in the nba's age

wilt chamberlain left a lot on the table just cause he thought nobody would ever come close to topping him. then regretted retiring early when kareem topped him in scoring

jordan retired multiple times because the game was too easy and he accomplished enough to be cemented as goat. if he still had someone to chase i bet he doesn't take that extra half a year off in 95 or 99, 00 and 01 off

bird had back issues that kept him from accumulating a ton of totals

magic had aids

kobe had the achilles

shaq was lazy and thought he did enough to be an all time great after just 3 titles and he stopped trying

bill russell got tired of winning and left when the celtics were still solid and hondo was about to enter his prime



and then you factor in that lebron only held onto his peak because of steroids... and the next all time great will think he needs to hang on to do more and so on and so on. its a major advantage for those that came later and especially with statistical categories and new awards popping up after a guy already finished his career.. or the implementation of the three point line that probably cost rick barry and jerry west a ton of points and possibly titles since they didn't have that luxury

and it wasn't utilized like today so larry bird rarely shot it. had it been more popular in the 80s bird likely averages 30+ for his career

and then theres pace changes and a lack of competitiveness. or rule changes making it easier for guys... this is why the eye test and using context trumps all formulas anyone can come up with because the criteria and scales to judge guys changes every 10 years

Hell, this is even further proof of you not have a single ounce of objectiveness in your anti-LeBron nonsense. Lebron only held onto his peak because of steroids? Just how ****ing stupid are you trying to make yourself look here? Do you really think anyone with a working brain will look at something like this and think "yeah, this guy totally knows what he's talking about"? You either have to be the densest person on the planet or have a legitimate hate boner for LeBron that is as strong as one that Trump supporters have for Biden.

[HunterSThompson]

https://i.ibb.co/WcHn8QH/Screen-Shot-2021-07-24-at-7-13-06-PM.png

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AltruisticJauntyHookersealion-size_restricted.gif

ever heard of Jordan?

ever heard of Barkley?

ever heard of tmac?

ever heard of stephen jackson?

ever heard of jim jackson?

ever heard of damian lillard?



theres a ton more.. a lot of guys don't like how lebron won and respect kobe more for how he did it

[SaintzFury13]

https://i.ibb.co/WcHn8QH/Screen-Shot-2021-07-24-at-7-13-06-PM.png

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AltruisticJauntyHookersealion-size_restricted.gif

ever heard of Jordan?

ever heard of Barkley?

ever heard of tmac?

ever heard of stephen jackson?

ever heard of jim jackson?

ever heard of damian lillard?



theres a ton more.. a lot of guys don't like how lebron won and respect kobe more for how he did it

Yes, I have heard of all of those guys, and that doesn't disprove my point. Respect and actual rankings are two entirely different things. You can respect one guy more for the way they handled things, that doesn't change their place as far as rankings are concerned. I'm sure if you asked Lillard if he agrees with LeBron's flip flopping, he's going to tell you no. That doesn't mean he's going to suddenly say that Dirk is a better player overall than LeBron is. He'd probably laugh in your face at such idiocy. You can make the argument that what LeBron did and especially what KD did were weak moves. You can argue they lacked loyalty. You'd be correct. That doesn't suddenly take away from their accomplishments as players. It doesn't suddenly mean their championships weren't earned. That doesn't suddenly mean they were worse than the guys they are clearly superior to. That's one of the dumbest ****ing things I've ever heard.

And just an FYI, Jordan himself requested a trade at one point before he was talked out of it and Scottie Pippen developed into a superstar caliber player. Kobe requested a trade before Pau was gifted on to him on a silver platter and saved his 2008 season from being another worthless stat line adventure. Don't try to sit here and pretend that if put in the same situation and given the same opportunity, MJ and Kobe wouldn't have done the exact same thing. They weren't even patient enough to wait out their contracts before pulling that shit. At least LeBron didn't go out in public demanding trades, he attempted to work through it and the powers that be consistently let him down.

[kawhileonard2]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8939726/coast-coast-comparing-lebron-james-michael-jordan

Comparing LeBron to Jordan

ADANTE:

Jordan's six-game stretch in 1990 when he went for 46 points a night on 60 percent shooting, with 10 rebounds and five and a half assists per game.

Jordan remains the standard, Bryant his surrogate to provide an approximation of how intense a competitor he was, in case anyone forgot.

What seems even sillier, in retrospect, was the doubt that once existed about whether Michael could win a championship. Most folks either don't know or have forgotten, but for the early part of his career the narrative was "Jordan is too much of a ball hog to win a championship." Before he did it in 1991, no one had won a scoring title and a championship in the same year since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971, so the prevailing wisdom was you couldn't do both. Michael did it six times. And he did it without an All-Star center, something else that wasn't common before he came along.

So Jordan not only changed the way we thought of him, but he changed what we considered to be the path to a championship. LeBron has the chance to do both, as well. He already has eradicated the notion that he can't win the big games. And maybe the new paradigm for a championship player will be a guy who can bring the ball upcourt, operate in the low post, score from any spot and defend multiple positions. (Yeah, good luck trying to find another one of those.)

The nagging question is why it took LeBron so long to embrace his responsibilities in crunch time.

Jordan appeared ready-made for it. He hit the NCAA championship game-winning shot as a freshman at North Carolina. In his second NBA year, he dragged that historically great 1985-86 Boston Celtics squad that won 37 more regular-season games than his Bulls into overtime by scoring 63 points in the Garden.

And what I consider a telltale stat: He never lost a playoff series when he had home-court advantage. LeBron lost with home-court advantage three years in a row. LeBron also has a losing record in the NBA Finals that he needs to rectify.


Nothing has changed with this.

[Magic Is Magic]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8939726/coast-coast-comparing-lebron-james-michael-jordan

Comparing LeBron to Jordan

ADANTE:

Jordan's six-game stretch in 1990 when he went for 46 points a night on 60 percent shooting, with 10 rebounds and five and a half assists per game.

Jordan remains the standard, Bryant his surrogate to provide an approximation of how intense a competitor he was, in case anyone forgot.

What seems even sillier, in retrospect, was the doubt that once existed about whether Michael could win a championship. Most folks either don't know or have forgotten, but for the early part of his career the narrative was "Jordan is too much of a ball hog to win a championship." Before he did it in 1991, no one had won a scoring title and a championship in the same year since Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971, so the prevailing wisdom was you couldn't do both. Michael did it six times. And he did it without an All-Star center, something else that wasn't common before he came along.

So Jordan not only changed the way we thought of him, but he changed what we considered to be the path to a championship. LeBron has the chance to do both, as well. He already has eradicated the notion that he can't win the big games. And maybe the new paradigm for a championship player will be a guy who can bring the ball upcourt, operate in the low post, score from any spot and defend multiple positions. (Yeah, good luck trying to find another one of those.)

The nagging question is why it took LeBron so long to embrace his responsibilities in crunch time.

Jordan appeared ready-made for it. He hit the NCAA championship game-winning shot as a freshman at North Carolina. In his second NBA year, he dragged that historically great 1985-86 Boston Celtics squad that won 37 more regular-season games than his Bulls into overtime by scoring 63 points in the Garden.

And what I consider a telltale stat: He never lost a playoff series when he had home-court advantage. LeBron lost with home-court advantage three years in a row. LeBron also has a losing record in the NBA Finals that he needs to rectify.


Nothing has changed with this.



Your article you posted is from 2013 meaning it is completely dated. I would work to get better, up-to-date material if you're looking for an honest discussion.